S2 EP7: The Impact of labels on Mental Health

[Music] Let's talk about the words we use when we talk about mental health. Because the truth is, language shapes how we see people, how we see ourselves, and how we decide what's okay to feel. In today's episode, we're unpacking the labels we throw around, the jokes we don't realize cause harm, and the ways our culture especially gear in Jamaica, and the Caribbean, in the Black community, teaches us to stay silent, to understood, and misname what people are really going through. So how do we speak about mental health with more care? What does respect actually sound like in everyday conversations? And how do we unlearn some of the things we were taught? So we can build a culture of empathy and healing. If you've ever wondered what to say, or what not to say, when it comes to mental health, then this episode might be for you. Joining me today is a son of the city of Montegovage, Jamaica, now fulfilling his purpose word globally. From Cornell College to the UK, he has been on a mission to serve, to live, and heal. He started as a language and communication teacher for asylum seekers and immigrants, breaking barriers with empathy and education, and he never looked back. With degrees in social work, mental health, and clinical psychology under his belt, he now serves as a senior clinical mental health practitioner in London's NHS National Health Service, working on the front lines of forensic mental health. But don't get it twisted. He is a man of purpose. He doesn't just clock in and clock out. Nope. He's dedicated to supporting those facing mental health challenges and advocating for holistic health and equality within disadvantaged groups, especially within the ethnic minority population. And he does so through collaborative work. He's educating communities, leading workshops, and rapping for the culture through his passion project, strive for mental wealth, breaking stigma and building bridges and marginalized communities. He's calm under pressure, rooted in purpose, and lifting others while climbing. Help me welcome the advocate, the clinician, the Montegoian change me. Kimani Reed. Kimani, welcome to the Mental Matters podcast. It's so good to have you here. It's great to be here. Thank you so much for that lovely introduction. It wasn't expected to get. That was really good. Thank you so much. You're most welcome. I try to bring my craft to the podcast as well. And, you know, your voice is so soothing. So I can't wait for them to hear it. Because I told you it's like we're being hugged, you know, and educated at the same time. But before I even get into our topic for today, which is language, labor, and respect in mental health, I'm curious to know more about Kimani. Like how did you get here, Kimani? What does mental health? What does that mean? Wow, so how did I get here? So you touched on it in the introduction, but just I get to delve a bit deeper. I was born and raised in St. James. I'm a country boy through and through. But of course, Montego bays my home city. I was raised by my grandparents. So my parents immigrated to the UK when I was three. And so they left me in the care of their parents. You know how it goes. Traditionally, grandparents will step in. That's the kind of community that we foster, you know, within our communities in Jamaica. And so I was raised by them for 15 years. During that time, I think the values and the morals that they instilled in me really helped to shape me into who I am today. So you're looking at me by also looking at my grandparents. You know that saying my ancestors wildest dreams. They're still here, but it's just a blessing for them to see the fruits of their labor, you know. I was very active in church and in school. So my faith is very important to me and so is education. But aside from that, I was very much involved in extracurricular activities that I think really helped to build my confidence. So performing arts, especially music and speech and drama, were a huge part of my life for many years. JCDC that never missed me every year was joining up to Kingston, you know. And so public speaking also became something that I really enjoyed doing. And actually my last year at JCDC, I won the public speaking competition that focused on human trafficking within Jamaica. And that was a big topic at the age of 18 tackling something like that. So I think that really confirmed to me or stared me in the direction that I am in now. And so even before moving from Jamaica, I really and truly had a passion that was fueled, you know, by just everything that was around to me. And I really wanted to help people. That was the baseline for me. So I always wanted to become a teacher or a doctor. And for different reasons, I come from a family of teachers. But also within the traditional society, you're kind of encouraged to think about those careers. Teacher, doctor, police, you know, the list goes on. So that was one of the reasons. But the baseline was that I wanted to help people. Whether people who were on well, people who were less fortunate than I am. You know, things like that. And it's so interesting that no, I'm actually doing that in the role that I'm in. So that's a bit of background. I moved to the UK when I was 18 and I continued with my education. And I was, you know, given the opportunity to take part in different projects as well in college. And then in my gap here, as you mentioned, I then got the opportunity to work as a language and communications teacher. And this opened my eyes to see so much, you know. I was introduced to people from all walks of life. And that's when the confirmation really came to me that social work was the direction for me. My mom was the one who actually suggested social work. Again, there are social workers in my family. So seeing how they worked in Jamaica as well as overseas. I think that also confirmed to me that, yeah, this is something that I can do. Because if you ask my family and friends, they'll tell you, yeah. That's definitely what you should be doing. If it's not a teacher, then social work. Because I do teach, I do educate. And mental health became something that I really, really wanted to hone in on because looking back in Jamaica, of course, we see just how mental health is viewed. And mental health is viewed every day. And within the black community here in the UK, it's more or less the same. You know, because a lot of black people in the UK, whether they were born here or not, they still identify with their home countries. And so the homes that they live in outside might be the UK, inside will be Jamaica, Trinidad. If you want to take it over to African brothers and sisters, Nigeria, Ghana, you name it. So the values and the beliefs pass down to generation. Both helpful and not so helpful. So mental health was something that I really wanted to do. And so after I completed my social work degree, I went straight into mental health and clinical psychology. And so go to the question that you initially asked about forensic mental health. It's very, it's very, very, very vast. But essentially, you're working in a setting where people have committed crimes, and they have, you know, posed a serious risk to society. But the thing about it is that you're helping them to be rehabilitated. You're helping them to heal through whatever it is that they might have gone through that triggered them. So it's not an easy area to work in, but if you're passionate about it, and if you know what you're about, then, you know, you push through the challenges. Thank God. Come on, you're amazing. Listening to you, I'm like, you know, we can actually say that you did become that teacher and that doctor because you are operating in two very important fields, you know. When you said just now, it's dealing with, for lack of a better word agitators, we need to re rehabilitate. We don't often look at the other side of the story or the other side of the picture. You know, we see the victims, and that's usually what we dig at, what we try to unearth. But there's another person, and while there are other persons, quite frankly, involved in a situation that is a crime, you know, we don't often think about the person coming in the crime. What state of mind are they in what background did they grow up in? You know, like you use. your grandparents raised you, and so what we're seeing now is as a result of the hard work that they put into shape who you are. Some persons don't have that privilege, you know what I mean? And you know, we thank God that the way your life went is in this very fruitful direction because there are so many with your same story who are on the other side, you know, getting treated by professionals like yourself. So, I love to show the dichotomy of mental health. It really involves all of us. So, thank you so much for sharing, you know. I know I said it in the introduction, but hearing it from you was so much better and given that we're talking about labels and the community that we grew up in. Why is the way that we talk about mental health so important, or as important as they care that we offer? Quite frankly, to give you a simple answer, it could be you. It could be you. So, you know that e-word, that word called empathy, which in layman's terms putting itself in somebody else's issues. Just think about it, it could be you. So, the words that you use, the words that you utter towards somebody who may be struggling. Think about it as you mentioned the other side. Think of it on the flip side. What if I was struggling with my mental health? What if I was going through a period of depression or low mood? What if I wasn't diagnosed, but it's clear that there's something going on with me? How would I feel if there were certain words that were used towards me? That's a simple answer. It could be you. It could be me. I love that. Let me make a note of that right now. It could be you. You and I had of course spoken before, even this interview and one of the things that we loved about was, you know, the more you learn about mental health, the more you're operating in the field, you're starting to realize that the people are on you with a family or a friend are really sometimes undiagnosed. You know that something is something is going on here. Something is wrong. But sometimes we don't have the language for it, you know, we grow up in a society where we oftentimes hear the word mad, right? Or we can't even say that because of the shame that that word carries or, you know, how people might see the family, how people might see us. And so we carry that in silence to the point where we'll even want to believe that it had to be something that somebody did to the person. So we hear about Obia. We hear about, you know, somebody sees in the split for whatever it is, like just because we don't want to make an official diagnosis of there's something wrong with this individual because oftentimes if there's something wrong with an individual, we carry that. We think there's something wrong with the family on a whole, you know, the family is no, we're no longer operating within the status scroll. We're no longer within the confines of what society deems as whole and perfect. And so my question given all of that is what are some of the terms or labels that we've normalized in Jamaica that are more harmful than helpful. Yeah, so you said that three little word earlier, mad. Yes. And I think for those of us listening, you would be familiar with a song that came out two years ago within the dancehall space. I don't need to say the word. I don't need to say the the name of the song because it triggers me. So any, any friend or family member who is a fan of dancehall don't get me wrong. I love my culture. If you're inviting me to any party to any space on that song's playing, you're going to see the back of my head. You're going to see me walking out because I'm not going to be listening to it. People who are close to me know that there are just certain things that I do not stand for. And that's just the reality of it because working, daily seeing people go through what they're going through. It does something to you because you're able to now see actually. This is so much bigger than we are so far as to be using these words so carelessly. And just the way in which people with mental health challenges were also represented in the music videos. I went as well as watching the music video. And I was just appalled. It's just the reality of it. We're being real. We're being frank. So that word mad, you know, that's the first one. And they say that if you know better, you do better. Because growing up, of course, they'd be walking through the streets of Montico Bay and you'd see the video. So we're clearly struggling with their mental health. And you're kind of taught that you should run away from these people because they're dangerous or they're dirty and they're mad. So that's the first one. That's the first or the biggest word that does a lot of harm. Mad. I don't know. There's something so special about the sounds of Americans because we tend to talk about mental health challenges in a way that we boast. So if you're in an argument with somebody, you say, you know, some mad mad. You know, mad, mad, you know, not not not trying me, not trying me. I had no good things like that. So if you're speaking to somebody and you know, you might say to them, you know, say sick, you know, say head no good. You know, these are phrases that are so normalized, but we don't realize the impact. And growing up, we were taught in school that sticks and stones may break my bones, but words never hurt me. The biggest lie. It's be real. They caught. They caught very, very deep. They, yep, absolutely, absolutely. You don't necessarily see the scars, but you're dealing with it. You know, so mad, you tell somebody that, you know, them head no good, you know, and within the social space and the modern space, I feel like we have put mental health in such a way that it's so trendy. So it might not necessarily be so much specific to our culture, but it, you know, with globalization and all of that, it has come down to that as well where, you know, people might say, oh, my anxiety, oh, my OCD, I can't, I can't sit on this chair. It's dirty. My OCD, you know, come on, I have to stop you here because just yesterday, I was driving to another location here. And I was the whole time I'm thinking to myself, in the past, I would have been one of those people who said, my anxiety, my depression, because I didn't know better, right? And I remember thinking how far I've come because I'm no longer owning any of that. It's not mine. I don't want to own something like that. You know, somehow it's, it's the anxiety or this sadness because I'm taking back my power. Like words have probably, like you're right, please say it, where when we're saying, my mad, it's affirming something that we don't even know is taking place in our spirit. We're assuming for that character, we're taking that on. And sometimes, I don't want to say sometimes when we're not necessarily suffering from the professional anxiety, because those things are true, right? But in bringing it into your spirit, in holding onto it as if it's some prize possession, as if it's a part of your identity. I really had to unlearn that and I unlearn that through doing the work, through listening to podcasts like this, through listening to professionals like you, and reading books that just helped me learn how to navigate through the realms of trauma, generational patterns and, you know, culture. What culture says is normal, but not necessarily helpful for me, if you know what I mean. But yeah, yeah, I'm there. So that's, that's where language, as, as, as the title of this podcast, you know, with, with language, we're thinking in all areas now, you know, you're using these terms so carelessly, but there are people who are actually living with these conditions. I'm not saying that you're not suffering from low mood. You've not had a terrible day because mental health fluctuates during the day. You know, you're driving and somebody, quote unquote, bad drives you. You're upset. You know, you feel angry. Your mental health is affected. You're not the same chirpy person. You were 10 minutes before that. So there's no denying the fact that mental health, we all have mental health. But when we take on these terms and we use them sometimes and it's because it's become so fashionable. You know, oh my goodness, she's so skinny. She's so anorexic. You know, these are words that when I hear I cringe you know technically I'm Jen and Jen Z but I grew up in a millennial household so yeah I cringe for those people don't know what cringe is yeah look it up but yeah I cringe but that's where language is that's where language is I know a lot of people I go back to the OCD thing because it's more deeper it's so deep you know it's it's so deep that it's not just oh you know somewhere's dirtier I like to clean no does it affect your entire being can you not leave a room until it's spotless does it affect you at night can you sleep does it prevent you from going to work these are things you know the definition for mental health and a wider scale is you know it's it's it's basically a measuring stick state of well-being are you able to contribute effectively to your community are you able to speak well act well you know communicate are you able to do the things that you normally do if not then check your mental health it's not just oh yeah I'm feeling a bit low and I'm depressed you know so mental health is a it's a buzz term I always say it's a buzz phrase in today's society because we we see it we see it all over you know places of work places of worship on social media it's become so trendy but do we actually know what mental health is are we using the right terms you know which we're trying to educate citizens around the dangers of what we grew up knowing around mental health which is not a lot because I my grandparents grew me too you know what I mean and so their idea of I'm sorry I love because that is my one this one time my grandmother was just like you're looking you're looking at candidates you know it was you're looking at candidates like me wish somebody could have you know what I mean and it's like oh my God you weren't even allowed to feel your emotions you know I never grew up in our soul where that was wildly accepted you know because one there's food in the fridge there's a roof over your head there's one of our beds is sleeping so what could you be depressed about what could you you know at your young age have to depression our work you've been taken care of and so that is the culture that many of us grew up in so we learned so hide the emotions or not deal with the uncomfortably emotions at all right and I'm there oh gosh like you said the house all that we grew up in because their life was so hard to write and you don't notice these things until you're an adult yourself like I give my parents so much grace now as an adult because first of all I'm like they really made something out of nothing I do not have a child or any real responsibilities when you talk about familiar responsibilities I'm not married so I don't have to think about another human being but they were thinking about us and themselves and the host one in the home and maybe cousins where anti-com drop off and left fund them and I'm like oh my God that's a lot so we can understand the phrase no you're lucky I have you know you have time for the press I don't have the time to even can't to think about that and I went to that no it's making me realize that even the way we talk about mental health really shapes our perceptions of how we live and how we view other people and so because you're the professional on the line let me ask you this way it does language shape how we see people that really are maybe undiagnosed or diagnosed as it shape how we see them living with mental health challenges or how we behave towards them it shapes our reality language shapes our reality 100 percent because again as I mentioned earlier I grew up knowing that somebody who's homeless on the street to his dirty is mad which now that I'm older that's not necessarily the case they might not have a roof over their head but sometimes we have conversations with them they are very much of sound mind but because of the stereotype because of how they are viewed because of just the circumstance we label them we put them in a box right the language that we use around children children if what they learn and learn what they live that's a huge thing so if you see somebody who is mentally distressed and you tell them tell the child oh walk over this side and then mad they mad you're educating the next generation and you're perpetuating you know you're you're creating this generation all ignorance for one time a better word because they grow up and if they have children or you know just speaking you the educate somebody else down the line and it continues unless you know somebody stands in their gap and correct demands is actually that's not correct that's not true you know that's not right so I think language definitely shapes you know our reality just like how you are knowingly bring on these illnesses on yourself when you tell yourself that you know you're depressed or you know I'm dealing with so much anxiety yes it it's normal for you to be anxious it's normal for you to be nervous are you suffering from anxiety or you clinically anxious are you taking medication and even if you're not again is it stopping you from completing your usual daily activities yeah you know so language I see it all around you know just the impact just the impact so it's very much when you were talking just know I got an image in my mind when you said you know walk over here so because person is mad right and you know you said we're inherently teaching the next generation how to treat these individuals or how to treat situations like this that we absolutely know nothing about right you just you just you're making an assumption based on of course what you see in front of you and I it's not always easy to tell people in their own not always easy to correct them especially when you're dealing with the generation before you or the generations before you who still holds the thought that wisdom comes with age right or you should be seen and not heard and there's a place for conversation between adults and children like there are certain lines you don't cross and so as a child even when my parents were wrong I never dared to live that just like when they were wrong they never dared apologize to me when I need an apology you know because that would have helped me to understand how to be a well adjusted adult how to deal with conflicts and stuff like that right but while you were talking I'm thinking whoa these rules are really reinforced through culture through families through schools through the church right so how can we begin to shift the conversation and do work against the stigma that will shift those to care compassion and empathy like you spoke about before but also respect like how how can we within those institutions do our part I think it's having conversations like this you know inviting professionals but also people with lived experiences I always say this they're the experts in their lives they would have known what they have would have gone through and how they overcame the struggles so people who might not necessarily have a degree but who would have had a lived experience you know and are on the other side now you know or in recovery it's like it's a great opportunity to hear from them you know the proverbial phrase from the horse's mouth hear from them directly have spaces like this within churches places of worship schools you know you social media to your benefit as well we live in this age now where it's so accessible so invite people in have conversations like this it starts it has the starts of where it starts when you have these conversations especially in places of influence so in Jamaica the church the schools you know just like how you can have an event in a park and you give away free food that you have entertainment and so on draw the people in what have conversations specifically about mental health. That's how you challenge the stigma that's all there. People from all walks of life, the elderly, the young, invite them in because you have to educate the masses. Educating the masses. Earlier I mentioned it's not easy to correct your within your social group. So how can we have the conversation without causing harm to ourselves and to the individual that we're correcting? Yeah, it's definitely not easy. So I think it's about finding the right technique. Building report, you know, so that might be you saying to them, oh, you know, Mr J N R Maashtam, you know, we know that life hasn't been easy. We know that boy, you know, the way in which the world is going right now, find a common ground, build that report, show them that you do understand, even if they don't necessarily know what mental health is, there are ways in which you can introduce the topic without using mental health, you know, try to hear from them as well find out what their story is because you find a lot of elderly people if you're talking about the elderly, you know, the the generations before us, they love to give a good story. So ask them, what was it like in this time? What was it like when things were rough, you know, politically, you know, financially? How did that affect you? What did you have to do? Find that common ground, show empathy to them and say, you know, you know, that your grandson, you know, there's a lot going on now in school, there's a lot that they have probably witnessed, there's a lot going on in society, crime, violence, whatever. Like how it affects you, think about how it affects a grandson, think about how it affects your neighbor, find something that, you know, is is common because yeah, it makes no sense to use the jargons, the mental health jargons, you know, because that can just create a bigger, a bigger divide. You know, you go, you go into church and say actually sister pearl, you know that you have OCD, you know that you know that you cause this person a lot of trauma. She would take up her Bible and walk out right? Yeah. So it's just finding the right language, the right terms because people will open up to you when there's a common ground and you correct, you correct from a place of love, it's not about just sizing, you're not called to like everybody but you're called to walk in love. I always say this, I don't have to like you but actually it's my place of love because I want better for you. Yes, absolutely, you know, correcting from a place of love, not many of us know how to do that. We think we do, but yes, we think we do and we oftentimes feel like we're doing it the right way and I don't know that there is a right way, I just know that once you apply here, empathy, compassion and kindness, you're already halfway there, you know what I mean? And if if how you're about to say it is not how you would like to hear it from somebody else, then that's also a cue for you to adjust what you are about to say in the moment. I coach young ladies in confidence most times and one of the things I always tell them is don't be afraid of the silence and also practice your pause because if there is a if you need a moment or if you're mid thought and it's not homing together, don't get flustered, think about what you really want to say or have meta discussions, you know, ask the person how do you feel about what you're hearing? Right now, that's a big part of facilitating the dialogue and ensuring that everybody is comfortable, that's how you build safe spaces and also brave spaces because sometimes we think the safe is the space is safe but do people feel empowered to speak after you've spoken? I always say this when when you know I listen to lovely programs or when I go to an event and they say this is a safe space I always say it might be safe for you not you, but yeah is it safe for everybody you know so we have to be very careful of the words that we use again it goes back to the language and labels because it sounds like the the right thing to say but are we actually facilitating a place that is safe for people to come in and say actually I am struggling with this you know this is how I feel this is what happened to me so it's important it is I know you spoke about you know you can't go in until this turn that you know you you have have OCD or you caught some trauma with somebody else and while each situation may unique and require some emotional intelligence to skillfully navigate which and everybody have that skill right yeah it has to be taught sometimes or observed or works through through experience is there an industry word or are there industry words or standard words that we can use to correct the harmful language and I'll give you an example because there was a time when we used to say that persons who are and I don't like to use the word no because it's derogatory but no we were calling them little people and also persons who were disabled right like we we've come a long way with using right language and that has been adapted by almost everybody know what for those situations what is there a word that we can swap all for like our culture where we call people mad or sick head not good are there words no that are being used that we need to become aware of absolutely so I will start with a term that is still used in Jamaican media spaces so there isn't a rule that says you can't say it but I just feel like it is very very harmful when you listen to their news and there's a story about somebody who might be struggling with their mental health it's a term that we use and we say oh this person is of unsound mind man are you kidding this person is of unsound mind we don't use that here and I don't think in the wider you know I as I said there isn't a rule that says you can't say it but I remember having a conversation with a patient client of mine a couple years ago maybe about two years ago and interestingly enough they grew up in Jamaica and they said you know this term just really sets me puts me in a different box I feel segregated I feel isolated when they say that I'm of unsound mind right so there's a dictionary definition and when you look at the definition it does speak you know quite accurately about maybe the experiences that if it was might be having but that term itself unsound mind you know what does that mean really so within the field we tend to say person is mentally distressed they're distressed you know so just like if you and I always say this as well with physical health because they go hand in hand you don't look at somebody and say you know we have empathy we have sympathy not everybody wants sympathy but we have empathy for people who might be physically vulnerable especially we're elderly you know people who might be disabled there's a level of understanding as you said we've come up very very far away but there's been that level of respect that's always existed even if we didn't necessarily know the correct terms but that respect doesn't exist within the mental health sphere for a lot of people so I tend to say mentally distressed somebody who is struggling with their mental health as simple as that well just as simple as that you money I hear it all the time right unsound mind and I know you're teaching me something because it's cultural for us here to especially those who are among the educated masses to think that that's the term that we use you know that's the that's the most respectful term and I think one of the things that we do is go ahead yeah it's interesting what do you say that because we think it's respectful but how we actually checked with the the person who is going through this challenge how would you like to be referred as how would you like or still you know how would you like be termed as. It's just like, I work in the field where there are people who are living with psychosis and to describe, naturally you would say this person is psychotic, right? But when we say actually this person is struggling today, this person might be hearing voices, so we talk about the symptoms they're experiencing as opposed to the term itself. Say if somebody is actually clinically depressed, we start off, we don't say, oh, you know, the depressed person. We say this person who is experiencing low mood, this person is struggling with a day to day activities. We struggle, we all struggle, so this is somebody who is struggling, you know? But as you said, I know I stopped your your train of thought there, but I don't really say, you know, we think it's the respectful term, you know, hello, sir, hello, man, off on sound mind, you know, think about it in that way, you know, no man, you know, it's very complex, trust me, like, as I said, I grew up in the culture, so growing up and you know, you're going through your face of education, I remember I did this talk when I was in sixth form, so I did lower six before moving to the UK and it was a public speaking thing and I remember saying something like, yeah, you know, this person is mentally challenged, you know, and again, there isn't a rule book that says that you can't say it, so I'm not saying, oh, don't say it, but be mindful, be mindful, on sound mind, that's the biggest one, is to sit down in front of the TV or watch TVJCVM and you hear the lovely reporters, a man of on sound mind was found dead and I'm like, oh, okay, you know, listen, I know this episode for sure is going to enlighten many of us, yeah, we have to think about it, yeah, we really thought we were doing it right and it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, about all of these agents of socialization, right, family churches, now media, we're taking our cues from them and so when the media says on sound mind, we're like, oh, of course, these are people of great intellect and, you know, they have their smarts about them, so without a shadow of a doubt, if they say it's on sound mind, then that's what I'm running with, you know, because it sounds like air quotes better, so I'm telling you, you are really enlightening us, one of the things that I love that you said was talk about the symptoms that the person is experiencing, that is not something I ever thought about doing until you said it or even thought about it at all, because we don't describe, you know, we're not very descriptive in that sense, we put a bandaid like a big tape on it, oh, this is on sound mind, this is madness, this is, you know, so when you say, talk about the symptoms that's like, oh my god, I'm really learning more about how language really will help to one break this stigma, right, and also shape how we care, not just for ourselves, because we're talking about the identities we take on, but also for those around us, thank you, thank you for educating us in this way, because we never know better, I hope the people that were used to talk to like this can really forgive us, because we really never know better, but we had a guest on here that spoke about the decolonization of mental health, right, and one of the things that we dive into was how much our colonial culture shapes the language too that we use for mental health, right, we were talking about even the rubric that is used to let somebody know whether they're suffering from trauma or from PTSD or whatever it is, and she was like, it's not built for the culture, the culture that we exist in, so what you might be feeling might not necessarily be what you are testing for, it could really be that there's something else going on, it goes back to what you say, until we have the conversation with the man on the street, we won't know if he's mad, quote unquote, ear quotes, or oh bless, we won't know if he's mentally distressed, let me use my correct terms now, because that's why we're here, we're learning, we won't know if he's mentally distressed before we start to have the conversation, so, huh, if language reflects the culture on our values, then it definitely should be reflecting how we view and bring people into the school of talking about mental health the right way, right, so this is my, and I don't even know if this question is for you, maybe it should have been for the other guests, but okay, walk in my head, but do you think it's possible to honour our cultural expressions and still move towards more affirming trauma-aware mental health language? Is there a world where we get to honour both? Absolutely, so this is going to be a very packed answer, so just to go back to when you spoke about the decolonisation, it's so interesting, because I live in England, so I see both sides every day, because a lot of my patient clients are also black weather and black Caribbean, black African, mixed from mixed households, mixed background, mixed heritage, it's a struggle that we have here, because we are taught this term cultural competence, you know, being culturally intelligent, so it's about understanding people's culture, making that active, active, you know, step, making that active step towards learning about someone's culture, so what they tend to do now, which I think has helped, is if you have a patient client who's coming in, you pair them with a care coordinator or a key worker who is from a similar culture to them, and it's been a long time, it's taken a long time, because usually there would just be a textbook treatment plan for somebody, whether you're black, you're white, you're Asian, wherever you're from, and it was really written, as you said, the rubric was within a white European context, and so it was within their culture, the way in which they said things, did things only present it, and how they still do present, but it differs because we live in a very diverse world, it's a very pluralistic society, it's not one dimensional, so I do have patient clients, who are not black, and if there's something that I don't necessarily understand, I am going to like, really, and surely try to understand, and I always check in with them, and I say, is this how it is, would you like to tell me how you view this, how you say this, how you would like me to say something, so it's something that we are trying to implement more here in the UK, because we've had instances, and the reality is that, for example, black people are more likely to be detained, and put into a mental health facility, mental health hospital, because it's not necessarily because they have a mental health challenge, they might literally be going through something that somebody else may not be able to understand, but when you pair somebody with a mental health nurse, a social worker who is from the same culture, a similar culture, you're able to unearth what the root problem is, you know, obviously Jamaica doesn't necessarily have that, it manifests in different ways, but when you live in a country where there's a white majority, you do experience racism, and that does play on someone's mental health, or it does affect how someone views the world, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have a mental health challenge, so the decolonisation, the decolonisation of mental health is very important, not to answer your question, is there a world that we can live in where both can coexist? Absolutely, it's about shaping the culture, it's not about dismissing the culture, but shaping the culture, we use these words every day, but it's about understanding the impact, it's about understanding the impact, I tell people all the time, mental health is not just something that you hear, it's a very very, this could take us all day, because they're so many dimensions to it I'm still learning as I go along as I read as I attend more workshops and listen to people with lived experiences is not about being politically correct because I had this discussion with a friend once and they said oh but you know everything is so like PC now and yes to some extent but it's also about respecting it's about finding that balance because you want to be respected so I shouldn't too sure respect you know I know it's not necessarily linked to mental health actually it is but you know and this might go into a different topic altogether this might be something you have to explore another time kaisha what you know within the Caribbean space especially the Jamaican space we always tell people now that actually commenting on someone's weight is not a form of greeting them you know you don't want to tell somebody oh what are we are fat what are we are this what are we are not we're not thinking about how that person feels no so it's also shown me that especially it's like for your generation that's actually no anti you don't need to tell me that I'm slave you know it's never the up fat because it does affect someone's mental health as well you're like oh my goodness you don't know what someone's going through see I was about to say that that weight gain or weight loss could actually be the disorder that's going on right that's that's linked to mental situation you know they they literally could be in mental distress while they're gaining weight or mental distress while they're losing weight so yeah and I get the might think actually you know it's because I'm concerned about you show your concern in another way right right you know I use if most of us were familiar with black panther of course we know the actor Chadwick passed away and I remember his last social media post and it was for a very worthy cause with people were ignoring that and they weren't necessarily thinking so much so about the fact that he was probably going through something and we found out later on after he had passed that hey this is why his appearance has changed it still makes sense it is it is it's still something you said show your concern in another way okay and as we are here to give the language to people who don't have it sometimes we we want to help what we don't know how to and sometimes we just don't know better if we want to show concern for someone what's the question that we can ask that doesn't cause harm I should say or embarrass anybody or cause people to shut down it's difficult because there isn't necessarily a right way sometimes you can approach with caution you can approach with that level of care but it doesn't always work out the way that you wanted to but I tend to ask it's a very simple question is everything okay you know yeah you know how are you if you don't want to say oh you know and if they say okay I'm okay okay okay don't worry about it it's about asking but you don't want to necessarily be highlighting oh there's you know what are you okay is everything alright you know I'm checking in you know it's also reinforcing that you're concerned yeah right because I can remember a situation where someone asked me if I was okay and I took it to be very offensive because of the background situation and how and how why they were it's not how they were asking the person it's why they were asking the question and I knew off the bat that this person had no you know genuine surrounding why they're asking me if I was okay it was being of course it was a situation where it was a much older person than I am and I had I had just finished advocating for myself and standing up for myself in a situation to a group of adults who I mean I'm an adult in this situation as well but much older than me and so you know for them everybody's a child they love to talk about the breast milk still upon a corner your mouth and also to stop and so one of them took the conversation to my superior and they did it with how dare I it was it was under the guys of how dare I you know and so when when they called and the person called me on the phone it was a are you okay it wasn't a genuine you know that okay goes up and it was like because I'm hearing something that most not be true so and you know I just wanted to double down on what you said about it depends you you have to have an emotional intelligence around the situation because I've been asked before are you okay and it's it's feel hogged and you know the kind that makes you break down in tears because you feel seen like somebody's finally saying I see that you're struggling with something and I want you to know I'm here even if I can't help the situation directly I can listen you know and so how you just said something that I think kind of covers it because as I said it depends and I've been there or someone's asked me am I okay and at the same time I'm saying I might be defensive by saying what do you mean but then you know the context so you might not get it right the first time or the second time and just may have been there my profession you have to find ways what you might be able to ask one person you will not be able to ask the other person so you said something that I would really like to highlight to you said I'm here telling somebody that I'm here you know you know where to find me you know if you know you feel like you're struggling a little bit you know I'm here just want to ensure that you know that I'm here you know that's the baseline so sometimes that doesn't well saying are you okay is everything going all right you know you didn't seem as chirpy as you were today in today's meeting or you didn't seem like you know the kaisha that I normally see is everything all right you know so it's a way in which you want to ask it because yeah sometimes you might do it in the calmest way and the person is still upset or takes it in the wrong way and that's okay because again you can't measure what someone's going through even if you're coming from a place self love they might not see that in that moment and I always say hindsight is 2020 because sometimes I look back at it now and I'm like actually oh my friend checked in with me last week and I was kind of like shutting them down but actually know that I'm out of this situation yes they were actually just there for me you know so sometimes it takes it takes you going through it and you're looking back on your like reflecting all this person actually was stuck in it you know sometimes you miss it man sometimes you you miss it because you're in a fortified position where you you you can't I always say to my friend that I think when I'm going through something I'm not as observant I don't want to say observant as I but I'm not as caring and I don't know if that's still the best word because I'm so caught up in what's in front of me my own issues my own problem my own situation that I'm dealing with that sometimes I forget to ask other people how are you which is in my nature to ask right I'm I'm the first to say hey I noticed and I wanted to make this point before I forget it that when you said you can say I notice you weren't as your your usual you know cheerful self or I think it's it's also great to pair it with an observation so say it's exactly how you said it I noticed that today you weren't as talkative you know you see my little withdrawn is everything okay you know pairing it with an observation I think is one of the ways like that would be the best language to to a doctor right absolutely yeah yeah absolutely but I definitely identify man with not being able in a moment to recognize that help is being given to you because you're so deep in your own pain that sometimes you don't recognize that somebody's putting a ladder down and not a stick to poke you You know what I mean? So at the end of the day, the assessment, the self awareness is definitely good. And adopting a culture where we can get comfortably not to say, hey, you know, last week when this happened, I hope you didn't feel miss understood or disrespected by my response that was definitely not my intention. You know, like I wish we could be more brave, like brave enough to facilitate these kinds of conversations with our friends and with our family, you know what I mean? Creating space for somebody to say, I messed up or I apologize or I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings, right? But, yeah, Kimmani, you definitely taught me a lot today and I made a lot of notes. I'm sure they're going to be listening from top to bottom concerning this podcast. But when you started out and said one of the ways that we can ensure that we're using the right language, labels and respect is just to say to ourselves, it could be me. It could be you, right? That was one of the things that stood out to me from today and how we can engage in less harmful conversations is to find common ground, build rapport with the individual. Learn, I think you said cultural competence, which is understanding that other people's cultures are different from our, right? Correcting from a place of love. Showing our concern in another way, like what else can we say? And using the right terms. So we're cancelling unsound mind, we're canceling mad, we're using mentally distressed, now ladies and gentlemen, for those listening. And we're also learning how to talk about the symptoms, identify what you're seeing, what people are experiencing and not just putting a big banner over what you're seeing in front of you, which is, you know, might not always be true talk, talk to the individual, that's what we're seeing coming on top. How to label a mental health respectfully, talk more, it's okay money. We have a tradition here on this podcast where the last guests leave a note for the next guest, right? So, and it's a love note or a one line of advice, a short encouragement. So here is your note, it says to the next guest, you're doing better than you think, just keep swimming even if it's one small step at a time from the last guest. And so come on. Thank you very much for that, I needed to hear that actually. Well, we bless you with that, you know, you talk about your faith earlier, and so I also want to add to that that you are alive, like meeting you for the first time. I remember leaving our conversation and immediately, you know, my bestie, immediately on the phone with my bestie, I'm like, "Kimani is such a light, he's an amazing person." And he knows I don't say that about anybody, I am the person to watch before I make any concrete, I like you, you know, utterances. And I'm like, "Kimani is good people, I can see that you walk with an assurance and a purpose that we all need." And I believe that you're in the right place doing the right work, and I pray that God continues to strengthen you in this purpose work that he has called you for because as long as he is backing you, you cannot fail in the thing that he has called you to do. So I bless you. Absolutely. Thank you. Amen. So ladies and gentlemen, that's it for this episode, we were talking about language, language, labor, and respect in mental health. And remember words matter, they can build bridges, or they can build walls, they can wound, or they can heal. At this time, we're choosing healing. So as we wrap this conversation, we pray that you carry forward the reminder that for you speaking about mental health, especially in your families, communities, and culture, and either may prove what people to be seen, or push them further into silence. So maybe the challenge is this, listen more deeply, speak more carefully, and make sure the language that you're using reflects the kindness and the care that you say you believe in. So keep learning and on learning, and most of all keep talking. Until next time, stay safe, stay soft, stay connected, and in true mental matters, fashion, we say Godspeed and walk with you. [Music]