S2 Ep5 - The Posture of Good Partnership: Greater Together

is a stupid idea to think that you can do it alone. You need partners, but basically, extensively, anywhere you can. I don't think that anyone likes to be patronized. Partnership can go horribly wrong, and it can go fabulously well. Partnership with our relationship. I have no enough time for that. It feels very good. It feels really cool to have that power hand. What would it be like if we truly considered every believer as co-equal? But maybe met together, it was just like love it for sight. It got on our hearts, but then I joined it and then gave it. I'm Kareeta Chen, and this is Mission Shift, a podcast where we explore the changing face of global missions. Join me and my co-host, Josh Irby, as we explore this new era of global missions, and what part each of us might play. After the Haiti earthquake, that killed hundreds of thousands of people and literally destroyed the nation. I met with a group of organizations that wanted to help. They were very anxious, and they say we can bring a lot of money, a lot of stuff, medicines, and all these kinds of things. And the first thing I told them is, first of all, we have to find out what the needs are. We already know they say we've been in other disasters. Well, you have never been to a disaster of this magnitude. Plus, even if you already know, it is so important to partner with the local people, to ask them, you know, you just just come with planes full of stuff. You know, we had a, in El Salvador, we had an earthquake in 1986, and they send us a whole truckload of winter coats to El Salvador, where the temperature is between 27 and 30 degrees Celsius. It's almost like a desert. And they send us, we didn't know what to do. We converted all these things into racks, you know, to wash the floors, all these heavy coats that we got. Because nobody asked us, "What do you need?" You know, they thought they knew, and they didn't. So, what a waste of resources. And so, I met with all these people to discuss how to proceed. And they did like me to tell them that we needed to ask first. They were experts. They didn't need some lowly guy telling them what to do. They already knew what to do. And of course, they didn't pay attention to me. They just went ahead and delivered. Two or three years later, they come back in a similar meeting in the same place, with all kinds of complaints that nobody paid attention to their services, that people stole money, and that they lost things. And I said, "Well, I think partly is because we never ask." Even with the best intentions, it ends up creating another earthquake that is probably worst. Because the first earthquake killed people and destroyed buildings. This second earthquake destroys the spirit of trying to regain my footing after a big tragedy. Because you guys come with everything and you're not even asking me, you're treating me like a blind person, like a literal person. And that does not give me dignity. And that does not give me the capacity to rebuild my spirit and rebuild my own mindset, which is the most important thing that we can do. Oh, great. That's so painful to hear. This idea that the second earthquake is worse than the first earthquake because it steals dignity. Yeah, it's so heavy. And whenever you hear someone talk about their dignity being stolen, it's a speechless. That actually was Lio. Lio Lava is the former regional director for Latin America with crew. And he currently serves on a global team, reaching leaders. I'm glad that we are listening to this clip, even though we're moving to a place where we're going to look at what a good partnership really looks like. Just to be reminded of why we need to think about these things. This is a question of dignity and spirit and personhood. And it's so easy to show up with good intentions and leave an earthquake behind. And usually how that happens is because we're thinking about the what we are doing, like what's the end goal, the task at hand. And we forget that what really what it is that we're dealing with is people. Yeah, I think this idea created that we are people working alongside people to reach people is so essential. And that each person is made in the image of God. Each person is given a dignity because of that. And each person has a spirit and an intelligence and a contribution to make that's so essential if we're going to work together. Absolutely. And I think when I hear those kind of things, I want to be different. I want to know how can I keep myself from being someone who strips away others' dignity. And I think what you just said is that remembering that and keeping that perspective, which requires humility, of course, to remember that we are all people dealing with people and it is about people. You're right. Yeah, and I would kind of build on what you just said that as we stop doing the things that strip away dignity, what are the things we do that build up dignity? And we've been touching on those in the last couple of episodes listening, asking questions, understanding that people know their own context better than we do. But how do we really lean into that? How do we create a norm where people are treated as people and where partnership is something that brings dignity to all those who are involved? During this episode, we're going to talk about this. We're going to talk about what it looks like for us to paint a different picture of relating to each other. Leo, as well as others, will speak into this. The truth is, we are greater together. Let's bring Leo back because during our interview with Leo, Josh actually asked him what the Spanish word is for together. He said, "Huntos." So we ask what that means to him in relation to missions. "Huntos" means we, with all learners, we don't know everything. And even if I know a lot, I can still learn more. And so to me, "huntos" means let's learn together. Maybe you know a lot about raising money in the US, but you don't know anything about raising money in Latin America. Neither do I. So are you willing to come and work together to learn how to raise money in Latin America? Maybe some of the things that have been successful in the US might work here, but maybe not. We have to start over again. But that's fine. As long as we put ourselves in the same position as fellow learners. We learn together. And that's not to say we throw away all of your experience, but that is to say we start with the same attitude of fellow learners. And maybe you will be surprised of the wisdom that this other culture has. And all the new venues of raising money that this culture has, that your own culture doesn't have. And we will have to learn a lot of new things. But you have to have that mindset of fellow learners. That's what "huntos" means to me. You know, as I listened to Lio talk about this idea of being fellow learners, I think about this concept of side-by-side time. You know, as a guy, sometimes it's harder to sit face-to-face with someone and for both of us to share what's really going on. But I often find my deepest conversations when I'm doing something with that person side-by-side. Whether that's, you know, we're building something together or we're standing and fishing together or playing golf together, whatever it is, we're doing something side-by-side. And it's not about the relationship, but a relationship is being built as we go about that thing together. Oh yeah, I mean, I could think of that. So I'm just saying, this is not just a guy thing. I could think many times when that happens with females as well. And so it's just a people thing. That's what happens when we spend time together. We're doing something. Our relationships will deepen. And it's taking our eyes off ourselves. And like what I have, but I don't have, it's taking our eyes off them, what they have, what they don't have. And it's creating us what we have. And a problem we're trying to solve or a goal we're trying to reach together. We probably could back think some of our previous conversations in this season of so many times the pitfalls was because we're not getting side-by-side. We're not together in that. What is it one place and another is another place? Yeah. I mean, I even think about, I'm not a fisherman woman at all by any means. But I'm just thinking about that as like, what if I went in thinking that I new more than you, which I'm sure you know way more than me, but I'm definitely going to be interacting with you in a very different way than if we were like, hey, we're just gonna go fish together. And before you know it probably I'm gonna learn something from you and who knows? Maybe you might learn something from me too, you know? But I think it's just I love that kind of picture of what this looks like, our posture going into it and what can come of it. You know Jeff are producer, who's always, you know, listening again, but I actually I think we should give a chance to speaker because he just got back on a trip to Latin America and you know Jeff, did you experience any hunt us there? Yeah, you know, I did, I just got back from a trip to Cuba and we got to spend a few days with just this wonderful church there. And in one of our conversations we'd ask the pastor to kind of help us understand their ministry context, then he was sharing some of what life was like for Christians in Cuba, for the church, some of the history of the church was so informative. But at one point in the conversation he pauses and he tears up and he says the body of Christ is not made up of just one nation. The family of God is not made up of just one nation. But we're so isolated. We don't feel a part of the body of Christ, of the family of God. And that's hard. And Josh and Kreeted, that was a kind of an if you've ever had one of those like instant paradigm shifts that you know, your perspective just changed. And I went to Cuba with we were literally in the middle of this episode when I went. So all these thoughts are on my mind. And I had totally been thinking about the relational aspect as a means to greater output, greater productivity, greater mission work. And in that instant like the paradigm shifted for me. And all of a sudden the family connection became a worthwhile goal in missions. You know, thinking about our to use continued pause illustrations that this pastor pulled out like my hand doesn't need to justify its existence to be connected to my body. It's valuable just because it's my hand. My family members, their place and my family and the value of my connection to them isn't because of what they do. It's just because of who they are and the fact that we're a family. And you know, I was singing back to this conversation with Layo and in juntos. Maybe it's not primarily a function or a functional connection, but a family connection. And that you know, thinking back to the story that he told that we opened this episode with that story actually like hurts more when you start with the family connection. Like it's offensive to a family member at a much deeper level than it just the really practical the locals know their needs better. Yeah, you experienced Huntos and you experienced family and that was transformational for you. Yeah. And you know it's interesting because the context like it was a short term mission strip. There was something we were there to do in partnership with this church. And so we were walking through the streets and walking in the countryside, going places shoulder to shoulder, having conversations, sitting through meals together. So it was both a relational connection, but we were side by side doing something. And Jeff, thanks so much for sharing that. It really sounds like you truly had an experience of understanding with this idea of Huntos is about that relationship alone just that alone having relationship alone is what is most worthwhile. This reminds me of something Andy McCulloch had said and we've heard from him before, but what he says here is really relevant to what we're talking about. I think potentially even the phrase partnership can have a task orientation to it. It's not necessarily a family term. And I think you know where you where do you see the new testament arguing for family? It's also trying to argue for mutuality in the fact that within family everyone has a contribution to making so you're talking about a horizontal space rather than a vertical relationship. And so I think that where partnership works well is where it's genuinely relational. Andy's not the only one who challenged us on how we use the word partnership. Forest also brought this up in our conversation with him. My view is that I think partnership is a good word if we were to use it well I think we use it too much to describe things that aren't essentially partnership. A quick recap here Josh. We talked about the idea of Huntos and being side by side and then Jeff shared about family and that was then confirmed by what we heard from Andy and Forest. So a question for you Josh. What are some ideas you might have about how to use this word partnership in the right way? Yeah it seems to me that it's people coming together, bringing all that they have and contributing to each other and for each other in the context of this mission. And in a way that lifts up the dignity of everybody involved and treats them as people are not projects. I kind of think about the way a family operates and that everybody brings something different but the growth the health the survival of the family is what the mission is and people are going to contribute to that and in whatever way they have to offer. Yeah and there's some people who at different times may contribute more or less and looks different at different times and sometimes they may be a little messy. I'm sure you and I both have families years as a little larger than mine but you can see it. It doesn't always look great. It doesn't always feel great but we understand what we're doing as individual members of the family and what we're hoping to see as we function together as people part of a family. We got to talk to both sides of this next relationship. You've heard from both of them before Greg Lillastran and Choneyoke but everyone calls them CCH and they have some incredible stories to share about what Huntos looks like in missions. When the story occurred CCH was the leader of the ministry in East Asia and Greg was the leader of the US sending to East Asia. Then in 1995 there had a great great honor and privilege to meet a great hero of a name of Greg Lillastran. He's just come back from Russia with his still down. He's not going to be the same bound and even but when we met together he was just like love it for sight. He called for a hospital like Jonathan and David. For context the US was sending a massive number of young people to East Asia from our organization. This could easily have been a bad partnership. We imagine recent college grads in the US being sent by the hundreds. What could go wrong? For sure not everything went well. In fact the partnership almost didn't get off the ground until a phone call. And I took over and of course Greg was that sign. Campus ministry deal horrified to hear the bad things that my people say like you know how can you not keep your promise. You said you understand people what kind of people who sent us and this year you have these sent three people. Middle the night that man that leader in East Asia called me and he was quite angry with me. He was upset over some things that we had done and I'm sure I screwed up. I'm sure he was exactly right. I'd made a mistake. Next year 1996 we don't have a big program. You have not kept your promise. Oh my goodness. I was thinking this is crazy. How can you talk to your partners like that? You need their help and you're calling them all kinds of needs and you have no trust. So I took over. And I say Greg it's obvious that no country sends his order rubbish. Obviously you want to send your best and we got your best but if your best comes to us with broken legs, broken eyes, broken hands, I call me to you that I will heal them. I will take them and send them to you better than you send me. But please understand I'm only a medical center not a hospital. Now all these I say because I had nothing. And that changed the whole thing. The whole atmosphere. And so I said you're sad to be my son's. Your daughters will be my daughters. What they like because they are with us for the season of time in the strange country. I will give it back to you. I say I will make sure that you betray. The fact that he called me and he was direct with me and honest with me and when I hung out from that phone call I was actually so encouraged because I thought now we have to be partnership because he's challenging me and calling me to the things that we agree to. He was communicating you matter. This partnership matters. That doesn't I wouldn't be in the shame. All this is by faith because I had nothing. (laughs) But that changed our whole atmosphere and I think a great fall in love with me because of that and so we had a fantastic journey of relationship and partnership that went on for years after that. Out of this relationship came incredible kingdom progress, both in the discipleship of thousands of sent missionaries and in the growth of the church in East Asia. That's what happens when leaders come together and have a side-by-side relationship. Greg and CCH's relationship flourished as did the partnership. Over the course of a number of years, thousands were sent to be a part of that ministry. This relationship impacted not only what happened in East Asia but many returned from East Asia to become national and global leaders throughout the world. - Actually, it's a miss normal having power and partnership together because you don't talk about power because you don't use power when you are in relationship. You stress, you come at humility, you come at a seven-hot and you're aiming to ensure that your partner wins even if you lose because that's what it's to be. And so global missions you're talking about, of course, it needs partnership because a stupid idea to think that you can do it alone, you need partners for basically, extensively anywhere you can. We put people who are willing to work with you and you are willing to work with them. Come with to them to be a servant, to come to them to learn, to come to them to relearn and to unlearn because your aim is to bless them. - Greg, it was so good to hear from Greg and Charmaine and from CCA, just especially, you know, someone who has watched that story unfold from afar. - For sure, and I definitely have a minute, the little strands and I have worked under CCA, just leadership, and when you think about these re, they are amazing leaders. Strong individuals have so much experience, have contributed to some very significant world-changing things. But yet I personally have seen the reality of humility lived out through their leadership. And I've seen how they talk to each other, the respect that they have for each other. I'm a direct result of one of those, like send them back better than they came. I have a people and it is because of these relationships that we just heard from. - So that's how you became such an awesome person, Greta. That was, you got a job. - That's how you became better. I knew you were became better somehow. - We and all the other dowsons, you know? - That's not, I mean, one of the things that stands out to me is that humility doesn't equal silence in a partnership. There's this idea of I'm humble, I'm quiet, I'm just gonna sit over here and receive what comes my way. But CCH picks up the phone and says, things are not the way they're supposed to be. - And I think that's why I mentioned that these are not like quiet, haven't done much leaders or whatever that are just deferring to one another. No, they have opinions, great ones, but they really exercise humility. And I'll even add to that, I think because CCH was leading in an Asian context, his demonstration of that, I think ultimately allowed all the rest of us who are working in that, or specifically me. I mean, there were a lot of non-Asias that were working in that context at the time, but I would say firsthand for someone who is in the minority culture working around people who were not, but living in that culture, and it was very empowering to see a leader who could speak out, who could share if there were differences, or if he had some strong opinions about what would work best in that area of the world because he knew, he just knew how to lead out in that way, but also valuing all the other people that were part of the mix of the ministry that we were part of. - So I don't know if you've received one of those phone calls like Greg and CCH relate. Actually, between the first season of "A Missionship" and the second one I received one of those phone calls, I was really glad that I was thinking about these topics through making these podcasts and having these conversations that when I received a phone call, which was, what in the world is going on or this doesn't seem right to me from one of my European partners? My first thought was, yes, we're doing it right. And because I knew like, okay, we have the kind of relationship that he can call me out. - That's right. And I was able to have that perspective because of all these conversations. Am I not a before? But what it did is it advanced our relationship, probably another multiple years of relationship because we just skipped all that other stuff and went to a conversation and he had the boldness to bring that up and we were able to talk about it together and work it out. - That's beautiful. As you were saying that as someone who avoids conflict and just wants to harmonize, like almost 100% of the time, my go-to is just to silence myself and to just think almost automatically that maybe my opinion doesn't matter as much. I'll just, you know, there's no better and go that way. But as I am now a little bit more mature as, you know, I've actually celebrated a birthday recently by the way. And so at least say it one more year. Why is there hopefully, I can definitely see that that is not the way to go. And I think that's where I think inherently many of us think that sometimes in giving power to others and we mean that we're just letting go of ourselves. Like to forget sharing our ideas. And number one, I think that what that does is it discredits how God has created us, right? And discredits us if we're in a place of leadership, maybe the people who've entrusted us to be in that place, God calling us into those places. But then also, I think you're not leaning in to building into that relationship and how you do that often is by having those hard conversations. And so I think what you just shared is a great example of that. And I think in more recent years, I can confidently say that I've had more of those hard conversations. And although it's still not my immediate go to, I will do it because I've seen the benefit. It is worth it. I'll just say it that. It is so worth it. And again, the relationship between the Lula strands and CCH and the you and your friend that you just talked about, those are prime examples. Yeah, you can hear the dignity in their relationship. You can hear the Hunters together, partnership. And even when CCH says, and that's how Greg fell in love with me. I love that idea. You can't go wrong with that level or kind of partnership. And you know what? Again, because I know them, I've seen them. They really do. They laugh together. And they hug and they love each other. Now there's one thing that CCH said that was interesting, kind of in his last statement, that there is no power in partnership. Or it's a misnomer having power in partnership together. What do you think about that, especially in my topic for the season? Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Because I think the first time I heard him say that, I kind of just like, I'm nodding around and be like, yeah, okay. But you're right, the more I sit there and think about it, I'm like, do I agree? Do we have power? And my initial response is, I don't know that I agree. I think there is power. But maybe it's like figuring out what does that power look like? Are we used, and how are we using that power? That's probably the bigger question, maybe. What do you think, Josh? Yeah, I mean, we've discussed earlier about how moving from feeling that the only elephant has the power to realizing that there's inherent power in all people involved in the partnership. Right. I do like his idea of saying that there's power in the mission. And I probably would say there's power in the mission. There's power in the interaction of us together. And in a good partnership, power is not flaunted or exercised or used over another. But the power shows up in a different way. What's that thing is what you're saying? Yeah, and I was going to say the different way is, we're not talking about the power in the person or the person's. Right. All those examples you just gave were not about power in any one party. It was in the mission, for example. Right. And so I think that that actually creates a different way to look at it too. And a different response. I say we showed up at a conference table and we're from different called jurors or aspects of the partnership. And we're, we show up. And the first thing we do is we measure kind of subconsciously each person's level of power. And then we somehow developed a relationship around those levels of power, a position in the organization, position, socioeconomically, whatever experience, training. I think what CCH is saying, that's not partnership. Correct. Just give that all out of you know, that's not power in partnership. Yeah. But say we come around that same table and we put all of our tools on the table we have. All of our power that we have on the table. And we say, what can we do with this power? Maybe that's different. You know, Josh, just as you were saying that, what came to my mind is, remember that movie? Remember Houston, we have a problem, Apollo 13, right? I mean, they took everything they had to fix the problem. And what I mean by that is they thought through, what does the ship have? Let's put all that on the table. Let's look at it. We've got us. We've got, well, we know and how to fix it. Let's just put it all out there. Let's figure it out together. That's partnership. Right. That reminds me of an illustration that when we were talking with Lio, he told that I think is really key to this conversation. There is one term that I use a lot. And I always talk about when I'm talking with potential partners. And that is the transfer of technology. All of these countries have developed these big things that work in their countries. And a lot of that is dependent on little pieces of technology or such a spiritual technology that they have developed. For instance, one of them is fundraising. Why is that you have so much money? Nobody has given you free money. It's you have worked hard to develop all these communication skills to raise money to keep people in well informed. Well, what about coming and teaching us that? But nobody is ready to do that yet. Not because I want to keep it secret. It's because they're focused on something else. It's like, it's easier for me as a receiving country to buy a TV that's already made. Somebody spent billions of dollars designing this 4K TV than asking the people who made the TV come and show me how to do the TV, how to make the TV. It is harder because it's a long process. It took as many years. And so now I come and just get a nice TV that cost me $300 that works perfectly. But I never learn how to make TVs. So when this thing breaks down, which all equipment eventually breaks down, I will have to go back to the Japanese or the Chinese or whoever makes the TVs because I never learn how to make the TVs. There was a case. My home country, as I mentioned, is El Salvador. And in the late '70s, the Civil War began to brew. There was a lot of communist intervention and a lot of nationalistic feelings. And when things started to get difficult, most denominations who had US missionaries ordered their missionaries to leave the country. And there was a ministry that I was very fond of when I was a young person. It was a Christian radio station. For many years, it was the only Christian radio station in the country. And they had great facilities. They had some of the most up-to-date equipment in the country. They had a lot of good programming, very good quality of AM radio in those days. And I had a crew program. And so I got to meet all the people running the registrations. And of course, the head chief was American missionary who I became friends with. And every year, they would go on for-load. And without the first time I heard this term, which has no direct equivalent in Spanish. And they would go for months to the US. Later, I found out that they would go to raise money and to buy equipment. And so several months later, they came back with all these new equipment, new transmitters, new machines, microphones, everything. And so everybody was very happy. We continued to be the best radio station for several years. But when the working and all these US missionaries were ordered to go back to the US, and everything was left in the hands of nationals, the radio station didn't last for long. Because they never taught us how to raise the money, how to buy the equipment, how to get all these programming from these international sources, none of the technology was taught to us. We were only doers. We were just repeating things. And so it was very hard when the components began to fail. And we had no idea where to buy these things. Near we had the money to buy it. And so we began to fix things with duct tape. And fortunately, the station never quit broadcasting, but it went through almost quitting. Because we were never taught the backhand side of the mission. And so that's very similar, you know, when people come with all these great materials, beautifully printed, you know, behind every good material. There is a whole army of designers and writers and people who thought about this. And those things we are never taught how to do these things. You know, we are only told to translate these books. And we do, we translate a lot of books. And we copy their Photoshop files, you know, their things. And we print them exactly in the same way. And I am glad to do that. I use a lot of these materials. But you know what my dream is? That we would be taught how to write our own materials, how to design our materials. And not that we don't have designers or writers, we need the whole set of technological tools to do this, how to raise money, how to create a pool of writers, so people who are thinking, you know, I call that transfer of technology. And to me, that's the most efficient way of partner. I want to sit here a minute with this idea because for me, of all the interviews we did for the second season, this concept of transferring technology has stuck with me most clearly and has had the most effect in the way I think about partnership. What do you think about what Laya says here about transferring technology and partnership? The first thought that comes to my mind is actually a point of conviction because I'm thinking about how I relate to my son. And I've been called out many times by my husband. It's like, you don't need to do everything for him, you know, and he needs to learn. And that's kind of what it is. I feel like it's just a lot easier sometimes for me to just do it. And in fact, I think it's better. That's my problem. Yeah. But in the end, especially now that he's kind of a preteen, I'm suddenly struck with, wait, he was trying to put his clothes away and I told him to put his clothes away. And I saw how he put this shirt. I told him to hang his shirt up. And I saw how he did it. And I was like, why is he doing it that way? And I realized I never showed him. I just assumed he would know, you know, just kind of look at what's hanging in the closet now and just do it that way. And I'm like, that's, it's my fault. And he's not going to learn if I don't start from step one, give him the resources that he needs and then allow him to do it. And it may not all hang the same way. It may be upside down, but it's a step. So anyway, that was kind of one of my first thoughts. And it's like, wow, I've done something very similar to what he's talking about. And what would be the result of that in the long term is an ongoing parent child relationship. Absolutely. And we don't want that. At least not in that way. Yeah, who has the power, right? Right. And I think it's easy to assume that we don't have this technology to transfer for a new example. That the technology is knowing how to hang a shirt. Correct. For example, you just do it naturally because you've learned it and been trained for it. I guess your mom taught you or whatever, but you don't realize that you have that technology. That's right. And this good thing that you do hanging up his shirts creates an ongoing dependency that ends up keeping that parent child relationship. And I think for coming from longstanding organizations or kind of well funded, well-organized positions, we don't realize all the technology we have that's supporting the output that we're doing. That's right. We just think that's just how it works. But if you're coming from a startup or shorter history or newer ministry or area of the world, you might not have all that. And you're wondering, it's just a black box you look at and you see this shiny brochure pop out or this fundraising success pop out. And you're like, what happened in that black box that produced that? Yeah. And I think back to when we actually moved back from living in East Asia to do a contextualized Asian American ministry here in the US, it was kind of a pioneer type of situation. And it was very difficult. We were like, what resources do we have? We don't have any funding. We don't even know where to start. And my thing was I wish someone would just give me a box that has everything that's in there. Tell me exactly what steps to follow. And I'll do that. And yes, I'd look back and I think that would have been a lot, quote, unquote, easier at the time. But would I have learned, would like us and our team and all the other people that eventually became part of our ministry, would we have learned the things that we now know if someone had just handed it to us? And the answer is no. Was it hard? Yeah, it was. But we were grateful that along the way we did have people to kind of come alongside of us to give us the step by step. step training that we needed, even if it wasn't in. Here you go, here's everything all at once. Here's the box, do it exactly like this. So it is. It's not easy for even the receiver to have to go through the learning process. And it's not easy for other people to kind of say, hey, we're just going to let you learn because it doesn't look good for a while, right? But the end result is so much better. In fact, I was recently sharing over Thanksgiving something that was really fun. But my husband and I left that ministry. It was still kind of small. We're still kind of questioning was what we did worth it. But they recently, it was a college ministry. And they recently had a regional fall retreat. And whereas when we were last left, there was a time when we were like, God, would you just even just bring 20 people? They had over 300 people there. And so that to me, it's just an example of like that's worth it if you go through that kind of process. Yeah. So you have the stages of, maybe they're not stages, but ways of drawing about it work. Here, I'm going to give you the product of the system. Then there's, let me train you about the system. But then there's even, let me bring you behind the curtain to see the gears of the system, even how I'm coming up with the training. Right. And I think what Leo is saying is the deeper into the behind the scenes that you go with the partner, the more there is a transfer of the whole technology and the more that partnership becomes a side by side thing. Yes. And the less it creates the dependency where there are power and balances in that relationship. That's right. Coming back to CCH is coming about power. Obviously, technology is a power. Right. Knowing how to make a TV is a power. Yes. And I think where I want to land on is common or discussion about that is that what there shouldn't be in partnership is an exercising of a power over. I know how to make the TV. You don't. We're going to freeze that relationship that way. So you have to keep coming to me to buy a TV. That's right. So there's not that exercising power over, but there is a contribution of power. Hey, I know how to make a TV. Come into my plant. Let's learn how to make a TV. Where let me bring my plant to you. And let's learn how to make a TV together. That kind of power, I believe, needs to be present in partnership and actually can make it more of a together, who does kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. I would say it's kind of like we're making space for all stakeholders. Or in this case, kind of like all partners, people in this partnership to come together, to bring their ideas together, to bring their cultures together, resources. That's what it looks like. So all of that, what we were responding to just now, is that Lyon has talked about how to transfer technology. And that was a really great example. But he also has another thing to say about power that's relevant here. The biggest power that I have discovered is a power of servant who's serving, washing the feet of my fellow people, especially if they're different than me. Washing the feet, I'm not saying literally, even though I've done that in it's impressive. What I mean is the power of having somebody from the US or Canada or Europe to come with a humble heart to say, "Lyon, I come here to learn together. How can we reach the leaders of your country?" That to me has more power than if somebody gave me a million dollars. Because I can think of many quick ways to spend a million dollars. And I would probably spend it in a few weeks. But a humble heart, it has more power. Because then I have asked to the heart of that person. And we can join our hearts and our brains to think together, using the experience of this brother, in my own experience, joining our hearts to tackle one issue. How can we expand God's kingdom among the families of Latin America, among the military officers in Latin America, among the business leaders? You know, we've talked a lot about having a humble heart. And what I love here is that Leo takes it a step further. And he talks about how, yes, have a humble heart, but it's more than that. It's us having access to the heart of that person. What do you think about that, Josh? I mean, this is a power that has a place in partnership, the power of servanthood, of an open heart, of humility. And just that Leo puts a dollar sign on it. He said, I'll take this over a million dollars. Yeah. I'd probably take a million dollars and this. But you know, you'll take this over a million dollars. Because it's like, I spend a million dollars and it's gone. But having a brother or sister who together, our hearts are joined. Together we're thinking, together we're trying to reach our country. That's, that is the heart of partnership. Yeah. It's, it's invaluable. It's like no amount of money equals that. It's kind of what you're saying, right? And a lot of what we've been talking about through this whole season is the things that get in the way of that happening. Obviously your humble or your not, you're open to this or not. But we've talked about things that can inadvertently get in the way of that. Sure. So really what we're talking about is how do we come to partnership with an open heart that allows for this kind of thinking together and trusting together? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because if you think about it, that's what it comes down to when we see any two sides, not be able to do that. And a lot of it is, it's a disagreement of how we think, what we want to do. Oftentimes there's legitimate reasons for that. It could be factors of how we were raised. It could be factors of our culture. It could be factors of how much money we have or don't have and things like that. But it is. It is about not being able to get our brains to work together. And first and foremost, we've got to get our hearts to be aligned in order for then our brains to be able to think together. I think that's the key thing. And that's why we're not coming and saying, here's what we heard. Step one, step two, step three. To a good partnership because this is a heart issue, which is a lot harder to make a spreadsheet about. Yeah, there's no magical formula for it, if it were. We all be doing it. We're super well right now. I mean, you know, you know when it's not working. It's kind of all the same. Here's the formula to make it work. But I think Lyoh gives us a good place to start. Yeah. And then we can come as a servant. Think something that really sticks out that I love about this is it causes me to want to emphasize that everybody can be a partner. Everybody has something to contribute. But our society, I would speak just about us in here in America. I think a lot of times we equate those who have means or have a position of power, things like that. Because of people that can make something happen. Those are the people that can make a difference. That's not true. Right. I don't have a million dollars. Yeah. What am I supposed to do? Can I partner? The answer is yes. The answer is yes. Yeah. Do you have a heart? That's right. Do you want to serve? Yes. Maybe you do have some kind of technology that you can transfer or power in a sense that you can bring to that. But it's not position. It's not your level of finances that you can contribute. It's not your level of training. All those can become tools. It's where's your heart? That's right. So we had a conversation with Sophia Wang and we really appreciated what she had to say about the inner work that enables what Lio is talking about. Sophia is the diversity advocate and ethnic partnerships coordinator for SEND International. And our goal is that we would become more like Jesus in the way that we love God and we love one another. And that is very much a part of the mission because that's our witness. Our witness that is going to be seen. Our witness that is powerful to transform societies. But we actually, I think in the West in general, what we've done is we've valued a lot more the works of mission than we have valued the work that's going on as we do mission. And that's the work that God is doing to transform us and to make us one. And so I mean, again, that comes from obviously my conviction about what the Bible is teaching us about where we're going and why he values us to become a people that's united from every tongue and tribe and people in language. It's not just the finished task, right, of that there would be believers, but that we would actually be united. This is so important what Sophia is saying here that it's really about becoming more like Jesus and keeping in mind that it's not the finished task but who we would be as believers, but individually and together as we're united together. It's so hard to keep that in front of us, but I think if we do, it's going to help us to understand the kind of partners we need to be in the kind of partnerships we need to have, help us to come alongside each other and help us with that whole inner struggle of working together instead of, you know, taking control. Yes. And that inner struggle of taking control is so hard. hard. We actually heard about that interstregal from many people we interviewed. And I especially like the way Barry Ripple from Send International describes the experience. I can remember I was I was on a leadership development project working with indigenous group and the long long term project and there were so many times that I just much of it maybe has to do with my own personality. But it's like oh, you see the car headed a certain direction. I just want to reach over and grab the steering wheel. Right? And oh, here, no, we got it. And I just thought as soon as I grabbed the steering wheel, now that's altered. This is no longer partnership. Now it's Barry's driving the car and to just say my hands are off the wheel. It's our collective car in the direction that it's going and maybe it's going to go off a cliff and we're going to go off together and then we'll figure it out when we get to the model. [Music] Partnership is about being together. It's more than just a collaboration. It's a deep intertwining of souls, a union of purpose and a shared journey towards a common goal. Partnership at its core is about connection. It's about humbling ourselves in order for us to find our hearts, our minds and our efforts together in pursuit of a greater mission. It's a kid to riding in a car together, navigating the twists and turns of life, facing challenges, and celebrating victories side by side. We're not merely here to fulfill a task. We're here to forge relationships that transcend the mere execution of activities. God's mission includes the intertwining of our stories, our dreams and our aspirations into a beautiful unified tapestry. Think about a family, a tight-knit bond where everyone plays a crucial role, just like Jeff's touching insight into Pastor Malio's words about the comfort of being part of God's family from every tongue, tribe and nation. There's something profoundly reassuring about being part of a unit where everyone's presence, thoughts and efforts are valued and harmonized toward a shared purpose. Partnership is that sense of belonging. It's about opening our hearts to each other, lending our minds to collective wisdom and posturing ourselves in relationships so that we are greater together. That kind of partnership is worth more than a million dollars. Thanks for listening. Mission Shift is brought to you by Crew City Global, hosted by Carita Chen and Josh Irving, produced and edited by Jeff Johnson. Music and mixing by Scott Crawl. Stay connected with us at crewcrueliu.org/missionshift. If you enjoyed today's episode, please like and review this podcast wherever you listen. We would appreciate it if you were to share it with others who may be interested in coming on this journey with us.