S2 Ep2 - Recognizing Power

We have to understand that the world is sloped from west to east or from north to south in terms of cultural power. The starting place is already skewed. I don't think that anyone likes to be patronized. Partnership can go horribly wrong and it can go fabulously well. Partnership with our relationship I have no enough time for Ben. And it feels very good. It feels really cool to have that power handle. What would it be like if we truly considered every believer as co-equal? But maybe met together, it was just like love it for sight. Come to our hospital, like Jonathan and David. I'm Karita Chen and this is Missions Shift. A podcast where we explore the changing face of global missions. Join me and my co-host, Josh Irby, as we explore this new era of global missions and what part each of us might play. Welcome back to episode two of the second season of Missions Shift. In our last episode, we explored the fascinating story of the elephant and the mouse. In the story, the elephant and the mouse were the best of friends. One day, the elephant suggested throwing a grand party, inviting animals from far in near. And they all gathered, enjoying a feast, singing and dancing with great enthusiasm. The elephant in particular, reveled in the celebration, exclaiming, "Did you ever go to a better party? What a blast!" He was super excited. However, as the festivities came to an end, the elephant noticed that the mouse remained silent. Puzzled, the elephant called out to his friend, only to discover a horrifying sight. The mouse lay on the ground, crushed and broken, a victim of the elephant's exuberance. In that moment, the elephant realized the unintended consequences of his actions. The African storyteller who shared this tale drew a profound parallel. He likened the experience of working with Americans on missions to dancing with an elephant. The power and influence wielded by those wanting to help can sometimes overshadow the perspectives and needs of those being helped. The story invites us to reflect on the importance of understanding our own impact and the realities faced by others in the partnerships we form. Today, we're going to delve into the experience of both those who offer help and those who receive it, shedding light on the challenges, misconceptions, and opportunities that arise on both sides of the partnership. Join us as we navigate the delicate dance of cooperation and understanding, seeking to bridge the gap between intention and impact. Welcome to episode two of Misha Shift. So welcome back, Josh. Yeah, great to be back with you, Kreatha. I have been sitting with that story since last time we talked. The story of elephant and mouse, that is a powerful story but also a little bit heavy. Yes. As someone who's been involved in missions and perhaps has been an elephant before. I think that's one of the dangers of doing a podcast about missions when you've been involved with it is you suddenly are made aware of things you've done that you wish you wouldn't have done in the past. The many, many things, right? But what I leave with that story thinking is I would rather be aware than to be unaware. We're doing this podcast to be aware. So we talked to 20 mission leaders this year and we tried to ask questions to try to be more aware. And one of the questions was about power and how it shows up in partnerships. Andy McCullough, author of Global Humility, who you heard at the top of the episode, sets it up this way. Yeah, so I think you're not starting from a level playing field. I think we have to understand that the world is sloped from west to east or from north to south in terms of cultural power and whether that is communicated to the English language, whether that is just some of the some of the brands like McDonald's and Nike, whether it is just the currency differential between the dollar and the pound and then, you know, whatever other currency. I think we have to understand that there is a the starting place is already skewed. So what do you think about the idea that the world is sloped? Do you experience that, Josh? Well, to be honest, I can remember a point when I was not aware of that. Unfortunately, it made me feel when I traveled internationally that I was just an amazing person that everybody was deferential to because of my amazingness. But as a spin more time living overseas, you definitely can see that. I mean, just the fact that I can show up and find someone who speaks English and be able to communicate in another country, that's a huge advantage for me that they are bending their reality to my reality in some ways. That's a great example. That's part of the reason we work so hard when we live overseas to learn the local language. And even now when we travel to other countries, I get really frustrated when I can't speak that language, even though I know I can't learn every language in the world. But I feel like if I don't know their language, I'm making them bend to my reality because there's such a strength to or slope to language. I mean, that's such a good example. I think I don't know that I ever put two and two together to be able to articulate that frustration that I feel when I in another country and I can't communicate or that they're not understanding me that that actually is a prime example of that's the slumpness that we're talking about. And what part of that slope we actually are on. And if we ask people from the West, I don't know what the percentage would be of people who would recognize a slumpness to the world. Now if we ask people maybe in the majority world, I'm pretty sure we have a high percentage, you would say, yes, the world is sloped. It's easier to feel like it's not sloped the further up the slope you are. Right. This reminds me of what we heard from Julie Mosay. Julie, she's the director of Eurasia Mammalization for Sen International and she said that slopes in this sloped world isn't new. In fact, it was the reality in the Bible as well. I think the Bible speaks to power dynamics all over the place. I think so much of the Bible unfolded in yeah, in the midst of a lot of different sorts of relationships and the kind of power that those different relationships represented. I grew up in dominant white culture, frankly, in the United States. And so I feel like I've spent most of my life with the luxury of not having to think about this. And not even imagining what it could be like for somebody else who's not from my dominant culture, what it feels like for them. So I think one of the big messages I would have is this it does exist and it does matter. And your brothers and sisters in Christ from other cultures that interact with any other dominant culture, they feel it intrinsically. They know this that it exists. I do think created there's this kind of automatic thing we do where we always compare ourselves up. Maybe we look at the people above us with more power or privilege or position than us. Somehow that is auto turn off to the people below us that we don't notice how we might have advantages or power in a situation. And it's until we get close to the people in these relationships and trying to actually partner together until we do that, they don't come up. We don't we can't see them as clearly because as Julie said, often we have the luxury of not having to think about it. Yeah, that actually reminds me of a story. So I'm Asian and I was working closely with a friend who is non-Asian. And at the time, my ministry was with an Asian specific context. And so she came with me to one of the conferences that we were working and she walked in and she later after watching me kind of work a meeting. So to speak, she later was like, "Creed, I've known you all these years and I've worked with you, but I felt like I was watching a very different person." And I was curious. I was like, "Well, what do you mean by that?" She goes, "You weren't the last to speak up. You were one of the, you actually were the first to speak up. You led with so much more confidence, not that you're, you know, me or anything like that, but I just felt like you were so comfortable. I never thought that you were uncomfortable until I saw you in this setting. And I later was able to explain to her. It's because in that setting, I felt like I was one of them, whereas in other times when I'm working with her, you know, in our other context, like I felt like I was looking, like what you just said, Josh, I was looking up to other people for some reason. The others had the power, not me. And for me, in that setting, it was more like the white majority culture. And so I think that's just, yeah, it's just an interesting thing to think about. And a lot of times we just don't, whether we realize it or it's like when other people see it, it really opens their eyes. And sometimes you don't, you can't see it or experience it until you actually walk into that setting. Right. We think of, we think of halves and have nots, potentially in terms of possessions, but there's a way that we think about halves and have nots related to missions as well. And it creates kind of this, as Andy said, a sloped world. There's a reality behind it in resources, but there's also a perception behind it. And it creates this giver-receiver kind of relationship that can really be detrimental sometimes to that relationship and the mission itself. The Sri Lankan misiologist, NT Miles, so that's N-I-L-E-S Niles, he said, "We need to break the cycle of pride in the giver and humiliation in the receiver." In other words, one of his observations was that if I'm the receiver, it makes me feel kind of disempowerful, it makes me feel relatively ashamed because you're having to come from outside into my space to solve a problem. I think the second thing is that it robs me of the right to be a host, so in cultures where hospitality is a massive responsibility, a god-given duty, actually, if you rob me of my ability to be the host to you and if you don't behave like a guest, if you behave like a host instead of a guest in my country, then that will not only humiliate me, but it will also cause me to resent you because you're taking away my responsibility to be the host, to be the one that's creating this space for you to come into my country and function. And so I think it creates that. And I think the other thing it does is it, again, it just argues inside people that the state is quo, if the West being powerful and my country being, you know, or the global North and the global South, what my country being perceived to be backward or less able to contribute, it just reinforces a lot of those narratives that are already there inside people. As I heard Andy talk about this, it's almost equivalent to going to someone's house and saying, "Here's now the recipe that I want you to cook for me." And for their family and normal times, because it's actually the best recipe and how that must feel as the homeowner as the host and how that disempowers them. Funny you say that because you probably said that thinking that's such a ridiculous example like nobody would ever do that, right? Nobody. Nobody. No, especially not me. But that actually reminded me, I'll be really vulnerable and transparent here, but it reminded me of a time when we were living overseas. And if you've ever spent any time overseas, you know that for a local to invite you into their home, a foreigner or any foreigner into their home, it's a big deal. And so finally, our friends invite us over to a meal at their home. And so, you know, I'm just thinking, "Oh, you know, a good friend would bring something to contribute to the meal. I know they didn't ask, but that's just kind of what we do, right?" So that's what I did. And walk in and, you know, they're super excited that we're there. And, you know, she's doing her hosting and then I present. I'm like, "How I brought this to add to our meal and everything was fine until we sat down and we start eating." And of course, everybody starts talking about, or asking about what it is that we brought. Why did we bring that? Like, it tastes so good or just wanting to learn more about it. And then as soon as that conversation turned towards the thing that I brought, I remember looking at my friend's face, the host and seeing it was visible because it's hard to hide that she felt so, it was almost like she felt embarrassed that maybe what she did or provided wasn't good enough or wasn't paid attention to. And that now, everything was about what I had brought. And the host feeling, the joy that comes from hosting was, like, it was draining out of her. And I just felt so bad because that was a hundred percent, not my intention. Again, my motivation was to add to it, right? And actually to thank her for bringing us into her home. But in fact, I took away that joy of hosting, that joy of hospitality that I know took her a long time to even get to that place. So of course, there was some healing that had to take place after that and it works through it. But yeah. Yeah. And what we've learned, Cret is that in the world of cooking, the world is sloped also and you're at the top of the slope up there somewhere with your meal. But yeah, we don't want to do that. And we never want to do that in missions. I'm Milan Michalko. I'm from Cigarette Public. It's part of Cigarette Public, Australia City. I grown in Christian family through the communist area. And this was, I'm so glad that I have the experience because I know what does mean like the socialist communist idea and what does mean for Christians and my wife, she accepted Jesus when she was 15 in the same area, like time area. And this was called Secret Camp. But this was a very like summer secret camp and that's nice that with communists or without communists, everything the gospel is sharing and people accepting Jesus. And yeah. And when came to freedom, when we had velvet revolution, finally we had opportunity to share the gospel openly for people and we had in Cigarette Public or Central, in St. Europe, like movement. Many people came to Jesus and we found church and many people came to Jesus. We start another two church plans and after that I start cooperation with the Josiah Venture Organization. I was a country leader for Cigarette Public for Josiah Venture and two years I was in the US board and after that I decided that I felt the calling for church planting because I saw that we have to invest to young generation and that's so important. I love it. But also if we have no healthy churches, we're losing a lot and we start like focusing for church planting. I hope you have a lot of healthy churches. Many people coming with ideas like sellers of manuals. They have the purpose you know, our pastor from some city is so successful, he has so good strategy for sharing the gospel and after 30 minutes you have on the table the manual. You know, and they say that's the best on the world that's functioning in India and Africa, in US everywhere you have to do that. And I can show you one day my bookshelf full of manuals like this. So hearing that, Josh, it just really reminds me of what we heard several people say last season. It seems to be a bit of a pattern that we show up with manuals. We're not an anti-manual podcast. I mean we all have manuals and I'm just thinking of the perspective of this church. I mean your church is growing. You're really excited about the fact that people are coming to know Jesus and their lives are being changed and things are happening. Churches are being planted and you think there's places in the world where they're not seeing this. I want to help with that. Maybe we can make a partnership. Let me show up and let me share this resource that I have. So maybe they can see some of that fruit. I mean, is there anything wrong with that motivation? Not that I can see. At least not at first. You hear that and you're like, if I see success at something or fruit from something, why wouldn't I went others to experience that? And I've quote, unquote, kind of at least I thought I figured it out because I see it working. And I think these manuals can work in many places many times. But we've heard again and again that there's something about that approach that is a bit off with the dynamics. And we didn't just hear it from Europe, right? We also heard it from Leia who we introduced last episode. Yeah, I have another another similar title would be "Cellars of Models." Yes, "Cellars of Models." Somebody says, "Oh, we have developed this great model of multiplication." And so we come here to teach it to you. And so that when I hear that, it doesn't bother me well. You know, in some way we shouldn't be surprised by this reality of people from the West showing up with manuals and strategies and models. I mean, we have the vast majority of the theological education in the West. We have the vast majority of resources, financial in the West. We have the vast majority of staff. So we can have a staff just working on the model. the manual in the West. And so it's very easy to think that we produce the answers and we need to export those answers. These ideas are rolling downhill towards the rest of the world. Maybe then some ways we kind of see that and it's good-hearted but it makes sense. Okay, so my name is Alfimo say my full name is actually Alphonse but we realized quickly when we moved to Ukraine that Alphonse is an idiom for PIMP. So I don't go by that. So he goes by Alfie obviously now and he is the director of theological education for Eurasia for SEND International and has taught at a variety of theological educational institutions in Eastern Europe. As Western leaders I carry I see a lot clear now I carry the baggage of for lack of a better term like Western dominance in so many areas especially in money in business. I carry way more than I thought baggage of I would call it even more than just Western like a British American colonial missions mindset. I mean that isn't my mindset but it creeps up into my mindset because well I mean there's probably the main reasons that I don't realize but I read biographies of heroes who basically had approaches that were very colonial. God used them and did great things but you know part of the metrics of success were is the actual Baptist building built are the people wearing ties you know these are things we call silly now but they weren't 100 years ago you know in the British American mission movement or the modern mission movement you might if you took a perspective course or something call it. At least probably half of my colleagues would disagree with me on this but I am beginning to realize that I carry a lot of that baggage in just the way I think. There needs to be counter active and the challenge there is it's subconscious it's so ingrained in like in the grooves of the way my mind works and being a recovering engineer only reinforces it that that my default is of course this is the right way and I would add like money dominance and time bound issues those those things seem so ingrained in in what we do that they become a barrier to relationships and and turn people at least I'm speaking worst case scenarios that turn people that were ministering to and with into more projects than than image bears have got. I someone who studied engineering have to say that I can relate to what Alphia is saying here they kind of beat into you this concept of efficiency and order and getting projects done the best way as quickly as possible and it does get in the way of of relationships and you know oftentimes I think we might think because we don't realize it that other people can't see it but people do and they'll pick up on it. It's a lot easier to look back you know cross hundreds of years and think how silly they were to do those things back then you know with the ties and the trip prioritizing church buildings over people or things like that but what are the things we're doing right now that we're not aware that they'll be chuckling at 300 400 years for now or morning. Yeah Josh that's a really great question and I think that even gives me pause because just like we're saying a lot of times it's in our like subconscious we're not purposefully and intentionally doing these things but it's there so that's kind of why when you ask that I'm like oh I really do need to think about that. So maybe what we need to do is to draw a little more where this power shows up and you know as we as we heard from many people money is one of those places that this power shows up. Yeah and Alfie spoke to that as well. What would be my first slap in the face with the power of money was thank God it wasn't me but it really shook me up and maybe wonder you'll see in a minute why it made me wonder am I actually being effective here or is this really about the money is when I realized and I only realized it because somebody inside the culture told me very directly this is what's going on. They said at this institution there are people that we have teach our students because they have donated a large amount of money and they want to and we're very polite to them we all understand that they have donated a large amount of money and they allow us to have a building or heat or books or whatever and so we sit we listen we take notes we take their tests we tell them how wonderful they are and we honor them we give them awards and we send them off and we get to our studies and I I was probably in shock for a month. It so many it was like a dilemma explosion in my head you know there was there was the whole there's a whole ethical issue of like of honesty and transparency and integrity and then there's the argument of well if we don't do that then we don't get the money and we really need the money and it's and it's it's for a greater good of training all these other people and then there's all the all the ideas of you know they say all those same things to me thank you so much for teaching thank you for thank you for your lessons I learned so much you really impacted me like I also raised money for this institution and you know it is that and I don't want to take time and energy from their schedule to prepare them for ministry if if it's not useful um but would they tell me I think yes but it really created a lot of doubt in me and made me really struggle excuse me so I can create I need to go through all the times I've been invited to do something and double check I was actually invited for a good reason or not or because there was money connected yeah no when he was saying all that I was feeling that tension all the the dilemma that caused him to have doubt I mean yes that's hard that's a hard place to be yeah I remember when I was at university and and we had a guest speaker in our philosophy class who had come up with the form of the determined the greatest city in the world and he revealed the greatest city in the world was Tampa Florida according to his form now you can guess what city he was from he was from Tampa and I remember wondering why in the world is this guy teaching my philosophy class and it was because he was a major donor to our university who had been invited in see so it doesn't just happen in missions contacts or theology you know anything like that but money has this kind of distortion effect you can see the distortion both in the questions that come up about inviting people to speak who maybe aren't the best for preparing the students but they provide the money also the distortion effect on Alfie as he wonders now he has to go back in question his whole impact and he's you know very humbly doesn't want to be a distraction yeah it's a complicating factor yeah and I imagine he's sitting there and he sees actually the very needs that this money that is being given helps meet like the money provides for these things that they very much need so it's like how do you figure out what to do with that yeah that really reminds me of something that Alfie's colleague gets sent Barry Rimples said about this as well I had a a fellow missionary tell me he said I just think people when they see me here they just see the letters ATM on me and that's and that's all I'm here for hey you know and and struggling to get past that that barrier because as I said earlier none of us would say we're powerful but we represent power we we just do so money is one of the ways that this sloped world shows up and and obviously we have a lot more to think about this a lot more to talk about this and we're actually going to have a whole episode dedicated to this towards the end of the season yeah but money it's not the only way that power shows up I mean power will show up for a lot of different reasons and a lot of different ways in different contexts some of the ways that the most obvious maybe way that I would say makes a negotiation unequal the first place I would start is is the issue of access that was Brian virtue Brian's ministry involves theological training in Asia and he did his PhD on unequal negotiation which is just another way of referring to our slow world. I think there were multiple cases that I looked at were as as I was analyzing in the research several you know probably over a dozen case studies specifically where there were people that had access they were granted access and they were able to be a part of some initial conversations of representing interests saying hey these are the values these are the needs these are the things that we want but when it came time to actually engaging in the decision making and the implementation they were no longer part of that process so they were they were invited to the first part hey share almost like hey bring up it's like it's almost like the idea of bringing a proposal hey yes well we will receive your thoughts and ideas taken into consideration and and then then we're gonna go to the adults table and talk about it and we'll get back to you and so that's that's one of those elements where power shows up well there's our table again Kareeta to come back up this table is the one that the table where they make decisions and who actually has access to that how some challenging stuff here from Brian yeah it really is because I think the reality is it's impossible to make decisions when everybody's at the table that's a big table everybody's got to be at the table making a decision just if you try to run an organization that way it's really really hard I mean let's just say even in your family as large as it is probably you can see that happen your family can't all make a decision together right I mean maybe if I'm a kind parent I let my my kids help shape the values like he's talking about and give their input but then you know we go to the adults table but you know we're getting into the family thing I'm the father of the family and that I can be paternalistic towards my kid in the best kind of way I can also have teenagers so I can be in the bad kind of way as well but organization should be different right the the we shouldn't have the kind of parent child thing so one way power shows up he's saying is who actually gets access to the table to the information to the decision making and you bring up the good point everybody can't be there so how do we how do we think about this and apply this in a way that begins to deal with those sloped power realities one thing I think it's interesting about what Brian brings up is that first you know who has access to the table and we can look at the table and see are we all is it all westerners around the table is it all from one nationality from one type of person but also there is the challenge as well as you bring someone to the table who normally hasn't had access will they be able to actually speak their mind and speak into the decision making process for sure because there's not only is there the ethnicity nationality piece there's maybe what context and content they actually are coming with the knowledge of to be able to contribute to making that decision sometimes age plays a huge role in that as well and so it's it's a complex thing to have to work through and think through so that means that this whole sloped world only shows up in every decision we make everyone yeah okay so we've got that established what else do we have so those are all kind of issues that I would put under the the category of access who gets it who's granted it who's requesting it that's that's an initial point another element of power is is decision-making you know who's who is making the decision so there's not just this issue of who is making the decisions but once that decision is made by whoever's making the decision then you need to make decisions to execute the decision you made right so we've got to talk about that and then probably the final step is the evaluation piece which is how are we evaluating is this is this a working partnership is this a healthy partnership there's there's probably no shortage of of partnerships where half the people walk away feeling great about it and the other half you know just go oh just another you know say we'll say we'll and so the question is is the is the evaluation of is it working mutual as well and I think that's something that's neglected oftentimes of recognizing that that our criteria for success for flourishing for stewardship these are all things that a healthy partnership should keep challenging and and clarifying and but if we if we implement but we don't involve everyone in the evaluation of how is it working and that's another way in which power can can work to exclude and create more of a one-way inequitable dynamic this last piece is so critical I don't know if you've ever been a part of a project that maybe is more locally driven but then gets it gets evaluated up the chain or from from a distance and many times either it's seen as a great success from the ground but it gets axed at a different table or maybe it didn't was not successful but then gets multiplied because maybe some external value that wasn't actually a value on the ground yeah or another way I've seen it happen is it went up the chain in the evaluation and the final product that was executed was way different than what the original decision was actually supposed to look like so whether it's in the making decision on the table or the implementation or the evaluation what Brian seems to be saying is we really have to think about how power plays into each one of those levels absolutely just because we've thought through one of those it doesn't mean that the rest is going to figure itself out it's like each step is equally as important and I think about for a lot of people who spend a lot of time at the upward slope of our sloped world I think we take for granted the opportunity to have access to that table to be involved in the implementation and to be able to evaluate we don't even realize what would have been a fit that is or even what a privilege that is meanwhile those who don't have that are quite quite aware yeah I think of the best example of my life where that shows up is when I was living overseas and I was on a team with both people who look like me asian as well as those who look like you non-Asian and because of the country that we were in it was the first time that because of the way I looked I actually had access to places both physical places as well as places in people's hearts that those who didn't look like me did not have and it was the first time it was flipped like I for the first time paid attention to the fact that I have access while others don't and but it was weird because when I was living in America just living out my life as I do today I don't think that most people like when they're living out in the majority culture life they're not thinking about that access just like you just said Josh you don't realize the privilege that you have until maybe you step into places like I just shared about where I for the first time realized I have access while others don't and it really changes your view and perspective on how you go about doing things I think this also shows why we have to work through some of these power issues because the irony is the people with the best perspective perhaps those closest to the ground are the ones who are not allowed to the table to speak into it yeah great point so if we really want to accomplish the mission and really want to get the best ideas and results then we really need to figure out how to change some of these dynamics okay so the world is sloped and that's just the reality right that's what we're talking about and but what do we do with that? Brian if I remember hearing him correctly he just mentioned that a healthy partnership should keep challenging us so then like how are we challenged what does that supposed to look like? yeah I do think that even though the world is sloped there's a challenge for us at any place of that slope and we did hear some challenges related to power for those who find themselves on the upper end of the slope. Power does exist though in in in non-Western brothers and sisters in Christ. Here's Julie again like I feel like if you're looking at missions right now the power of being multilingual the power of having to having to navigate different cultures. Most non-Western people have to and and actually what Europeans that West even Western Europeans they have to do that all the time and their ability to adapt and to learn is unbelievable and to me as a strength as a power. that they have. We have two Filipino appointees are getting, they're almost ready to come into, they're going to be coming into Central Asia. They both speak four languages. Four. Is that blue-yoo-way? Four languages. And that's like normal to that. So are they daunted by the thought of learning the new languages? Yes, but their brains are already so wired for that. And I find that to be amazing, such a strength. They've already had to navigate cultural differences as part of their everyday lives in East Asia and stuff like that. So I find that, I mean, I think that's a power, a kind of power that makes them so able to be effective and the fact that they already understand and feel comfortable in collective cultures to me as an incredible strength. I don't know that Westerners always understand how huge these characteristics are. Julie brings up some hidden powers like language and cultural adaptation. We also heard something similar from Greg Lillistran. Greg has served with crew in national and international roles for several decades. In global missions, we tend to think of resources simply as people in money. So if our resources, people that can go and money that can be sent, then America continues to be quite a central place in that equation. But we have just learned over the years, it isn't a one-way street. It's a giving and receiving. It's mutuality of nations. There are people in nations who creativity blows me away. Their faith blows me away. Their prayer light blows me away. Their idea is of what to do in ministry that we've never thought of. And so those are things they have to offer. I remember I was in the Middle East at a gathering and this man who was just an amazing spiritual leader for more of the countries in North Africa. He got up and he started sharing their plans of what they were trusting God for, but he said, "So the war is broken out again in my nation." And in my American mentality, I'm thinking the next thing he's going to say is, "So we're going our plans." But he went on to say, "So pray for us as we move forward with what we're doing." And that was absolutely blown away by his faith. And then, as we got to know each other, it was a season where we were waiting years to have a child. And he and his wife started praying for us that we have a child and he would check in with me regularly. They were prayer warriors for us to have a child. And a couple of years later, when I ran, when I was with him in a Turkish hotel in Istanbul and told him we were praying with our son, they just wept. When I was alive and happened, they called us from North Africa to make sure we were okay. I mean, the faith and the kindness and the courage and the vision, it's giving and receiving. It is so much more than just money. This reminds me of last summer when we did a panel discussion and Della Adotov, who was one of our panel speakers. And one of the questions was related to people from poorer countries in Africa. And I remembered this moment because it really began this process of thinking about how I think about the slopes in the world. As Dr. Adotov said, "What do you mean poor countries?" You mean the ones where people are eating organic food and are immune to a lot of diseases because they live close to the land. While other people live in their high-rise apartments, eating food, pump full of all these modifications disconnected from their community and from their friends, what do you mean about poorer countries? Wow. It was just a powerful moment of how we judge power or we judge wealth or we judge different things. And there's other values besides just military power, money, the big things that we talk about. There's other powers out there. And even wonder, just now as we're talking about this, that maybe there are even some people that are listening from the majority world. And our discussion about a slope world early on and talking about money and talking about power and talking about ideas may have even been hurtful in the way that you hear that because of thinking, "Well, what about the power and the things that I have to give?" I'm just realizing how much we have to learn about the slopes and the power dynamics and the resources in the world that God has put in for us to do this mission. Yeah, appreciate you saying that, Josh. I think that's just a good reminder that no matter who we are, where we are, that we all have something to learn. And I mean, that's ultimately what we're talking about. And that's what makes me so excited that we get to have this podcast even. Let's just continue sharing what we're learning, but also to take steps forward as we're learning. So on the one hand, we have to recognize the power slope in the world or else we'll be like elephant, unaware of the power we bring into a situation. Right. But on the other side, we need to not hold that so tightly that we don't realize other power slopes that exist in the world, that lean the other way. I guess we got to spend the rest of the podcast right on back those, right? Right. Because this is complicated. How do we navigate that? Yeah, because I think when I'm sitting here thinking about that, I'm cautious of making sure we're not discounting that every culture, every community, they have their strengths. And so we don't want to say that those strengths or strengths/power or whatever you want to use are not to be considered or not to be used. Because I think the point is we want to bring all those things to the table together and trust the Holy Spirit to put those things together to maximize what God wants to do in that place or with those people in that community, whatever it might be. Mm-hmm. And when Paul crossed over into Europe and went to Philippi, he was a mouse in a very elephant-dine world. And yet God used him to plant the first church in Europe, leading Lydia to Christ, starting a church in her house, and that began to spread. So there are mice who are elephants of faith, and a prayer, and a culture adaptation, and a willingness to suffer who are doing amazing things for the kingdom. And we can't take our eye off that. Mm-hmm. So we're talking earlier about elephant being unaware of his size and how the fact that has on his friend mouse. But it seemed like there's kind of a double-blind situation because elephants also unaware of the power that mouse brings to the equation. And we can be maybe aware of the power we have, whether that's money or the ideas. In fact, that's our confidence in missions many times. But blind to the effect that has, but we also can be blind to the power that others have, perhaps who don't have that same money or theological training or whatever it is, and miss out on the effect that that can have. Right, and that's so easy to do. There's so many ways to get this power thing wrong. Mm-hmm. I know times I'm unaware of the power I have and the fact that it has in the environments I'm in. But I also can go wrong by thinking that I have power and not recognizing the power other people have, and taking a very narrow approach at what power is. In some ways, putting people on a downslope when that's not where Jesus put them. And it's really running up against this kind of upside down kingdom that Jesus preached of the week being strong and the last being first. And I know I need to spend more time processing that. there can be any number of these. kinds of different sorts of power relationship of play in different places. But I think pretending it doesn't exist is foolish. I don't think it's unspearial to think about these things. I think it's part of loving one another. I think James, first chapter of James, I feel like speaks specifically to this, you know, between rich and poor and how we need to be mindful of each other and think about what it's like for the other person. I feel like for me, I feel that it's part of my responsibility as a sister in Christ to think about it because I do come from a more dominant culture, geopolitically in the world, culturally in the world today, that I think about what that feels like for my friends that are not from my culture. I don't think that hurts me or in any way threatens me because I follow a savior that asks me to lay down my life to pick up my cross to carry other people's burdens. So I feel like the way of Jesus is to kind of surrender those identities and and to think about how it feels for somebody else. Like, of all people, Christian should be able to do that. Julie just said, "I follow a savior that asks me to lay down my life to pick up my cross." That's a transformative perspective that holds the potential to reshape our interactions and relationships. But how do we cultivate this mindset? Embracing the cross of humility is what I feel like I've had to do in this learning journey we've been on. I've been reminded that each person carries a unique gift, and sometimes the challenge lies in identifying what we must let go of within ourselves to fully appreciate the contribution of others. Now, as we navigate this journey, I realize that we're all interested with gifts from a higher power, from God, our savior, and we are all fellow travelers on the road of faith. What resonates with me is the realization that within this interplay of power dynamics, there lies an untapped well of potential for mutual growth. It's a realm where the differences between us might not be as vast as they seem, a space where the posture we choose matters deeply. Yes, this terrain can both be hopeful and difficult to traverse, and it requires us to confront uncomfortable truths and venture into uncharted territory. But therein lies the opportunity for transformation, learning and growth rarely occur without discomfort. So, as we eagerly embrace the road ahead, let's remember that true progress is born from the willingness to question, to evolve, and to challenge our assumptions. Our journey into complexities of power continues in our next episode where we'll hear more from others as we move toward partnerships in which everyone makes their best contribution. Thanks for listening. Mission shift is brought to you by Crew City Global, hosted by Karita Chen and Josh Irby, produced and edited by Jeff Johnson. Music and mixing by Scott Crawl. Stay connected with us at crewcru.org/missionshift. If you enjoyed today's episode, please like and review this podcast wherever you listen. We would appreciate it if you were to share it with others who may be interested in coming on the journey with us.