S2 Ep2 How to win when you're losing

I tell my kids that if they're not failing at something, they're not actually learning. Not because failure feels good, because failure is information. But here's the problem. Your brain does not treat it that way. The moment you start losing, you're thinking narrows. Your option's shrink, and the pressure to either push harder or give up gets louder. Today, you're unpacking the psychology of losing and what the science says about how to actually turn it around. Welcome to ThinkShift, the podcast where neuroscience meets business. [Music] -Hallelujah. Good to see you again. -Hey, Clint, how you going? -I'm good. -I'm good. -Everything all right this way. We didn't have anything. -Yeah, there we go. -Getting better. -I can see that it's still strapped, which is good, because I said you to keep the strapping on for a bit. -Yeah, it'll be strapped for a long time. -Yeah, good. -Yeah, maybe even the month. -Let's see. All right. So today we're going to talk about how to win when you're losing. Most people respond to losing in one or two ways. They push harder on what is not working, where they bail before they have had enough information. So, when someone starts losing, a sail run dries up, a campaign tanks, a launch flops, what is actually happening in the brain? -So, basically, besides sadness and frustration, we. -Yeah. -We see it as a risk and basically as a threat response. It's a psychological power of losing something is actually twice as effective as gaining something. So, loss for us as humans is not only do we take it personally, but we see it as failure or we see it as, "Oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? Who's to blame? And blame is a coping mechanism?" We start instead of thinking of options and broadening and becoming neuroplastic and thinking ways that we can solve the problem or create solutions, we tend to go inward. -It's a narrowing, actually. -It's very narrow. It's converging. So, it's basically converging or convergent thinking rather than divergent thinking because we're trying to protect ourselves. -Right. So, it goes right back to what caveman you're. -100%. -And we became to be and being attacked. -I was chasing you. What do you want to do? You don't have to stand there and go, "I, me, man, me, charf." -I would stand there and go, "Look, I've got 10 options. This is what I'm going to think about doing right now. No, exactly. You're exactly right." -But it is. When we. -We stop going to the one option. -Yeah, that's right. -Exactly. And it's interesting because I often talk about going back to caveman and we've had a lot of conversations around that. And what's funny is that our brain has evolved and the way we operate and just. -For most of us. -No, not for all of us. That's right. I don't see that every day. But the principles of how our brain operates and how we think and the neurological responses are the same. -Same. -So, the other thing too is we take defeat really hard, Lee. So, going back to that example. So, well, your wife or partner is at home with the kids, sewing, cooking, looking after them, making sure you keep you warm and you're out fighting the buffalo. So not only have you had to run away from the buffalo, that's one loss. The second loss is you haven't been able to get food to bring back to the family. -To another loss. -So, it's another loss. So that's why we really consider losing so much more of a significance than gaining something. Gaining is great, loss so much more powerful. -Right. So, the brain is working against us exactly at the moment when we actually needed the most. -Wow. -Okay. So, let's go towards the science again and tell me what is loss of version? Because this term loss of version comes up quite a bit. What is that in plain language? -Yes. So, loss of version is a bias, it's a cognitive bias. And a basically is the interpretation of what I just said. The power of losing something is twice as much as gaining something. So, we will go to great lengths, we'll go to great lengths to avoid loss, even if it means that we're going to gain something or be in a better position. Good rather, be at a status quo and not move forward, not innovate, not be creative at the risk of potentially losing something. And this is where a lot of change management and organising all change management comes into it where, well, if we're doing the same thing over and over again, how do we get a better results? But we're not designed to change because it's hard. We've got to think, we've got to make really difficult decisions and we're not used to it. But, it's a comfort. It's risky, potentially, our cortisol and our stress upregulates, which means then we can't make really good decisions. So, we are working against ourselves despite pushing forward. And this is where resilience comes in that we need to. And that's where we talk about resilience, we talk about courage, pushing through boundaries, being comfortable with the uncomfortable. But that's hard to do because that's not natural. -It's not a natural thing. I see it myself all the time when under a high pressure situation and you may slip up. Even though no one else may notice the slip, but you notice the slip. And this happened to me once when I was actually in a band a long time ago performing. -You were in a band. -I was in a band. I was singing. -You were a singer. -And a guitarist. And the song, I stuffed it up. -I still haven't got over the fact that you were in a band. -Okay. That's great. -No, that's awesome. -And I stuffed it up in the middle of the song. And no one else would have noticed, but I noticed. And that was it. Like my brain shut down, it was all over. It ruined the rest of the gig. And a great example, right? The final flight takes over. And my thinking just turns into this one track. I just want to get off the stage. It was all I was thinking, you know, everybody's going to make fun of me. -Yeah. And that was the running away from the buffalo. I wanted to get off the stage. I wanted to protect myself when we come very inward and we come very insular. -Yes. -More on the band some other time. But we'll talk about that. So why does this keep strumming along, shall we? -It's going to be lots of those. -Yes. -Why does the brain treat losing as such a threat though? -Because it's risky. -Risky, like physically or potentially could be. -Mentally. -Yeah. -And it's hard to maintain status quo. We put a lot of energy into where we are now. So we've done our persona, our businesses, our ideas that we've come up with, our entity decisions that we make. A lot of effort goes into that. We don't want to lose that. And so even if I was to say to you, you might gain another 5%. But what expense? We say, what expense? Is it worth it? And we tend to think about those repercussions first before we go, "Yeah, sure." "Yeah, sure." And that's not being a yes person. Yes person, we go, "Yeah, sure, yeah, sure, yeah, sure." Often being a yes person or saying yes to too many things which both of you and I do is around because we don't want to lose something. That's why we say yes. That's not because we're gaining. It's protecting the loss. -Okay. -Before we continue, don't forget to like, follow and subscribe to ThinkShift on all the social channels so you don't miss out on what shift is coming up next. Let's talk about what to look out for. So this is not just a business problem. It shows up in leaders, founders, sales teams, marketers and even parents. I can tell you that for sure. The hard part is that loss aversion can look like commitment. So what does it feel like in the moment, which is to break it down to situational? What does it feel like in the moment? -So we become very defensive. So we want to protect ourselves. There's a sense of urgency. There's a sense of angst, frustration. There. -Do we sweat? Do we just break out into. -We can get clammy. -We can get clammy. -From a body language perspective, we tend to become very inward. So our shoulders will hunch, body weight forward. -Slump. -Slump. -Rather being proud and open because that takes effort. And if you look at animals in the wild, if they're always trying to hide, or if they're injured or they're going to die, they will go somewhere on their own and they'll shrink to become as small as possible. I remember seeing an organisational psychologist myself around an event, quite a significant event in my life in the corporate world. And me being a total extrovert and very outward big personality and dealing with the fact that all I wanted to do was to shrivel myself up into a ball so much that I just wanted to disappear. And that just shows that that takes over. That protection mechanism. -I could all cost. costs and we were trying to unpack that behavior and why I felt like that and surrounding protecting myself. But I didn't look at the gains. I didn't even have the capacity when she said to me, but look at what the positive, there was no positive. And I couldn't even get myself into that mindset of looking at the positive because all it was is whatever I lost or what am I losing rather than what am I going to gain out of this. Looking back now, I go, oh my gosh, okay now I understand, but at the time when I'm in it, I was all around. Just clouded by it. Yeah, protecting myself. Protection. Because that loss is twice as important to the gain. If we just look at business for a second here, some of the signs that loss of just driving the decision, one of the top ones would be you keep saying we've already come this far. Like what are some of the other signs? From this far, what is it? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We've done it like this. It's very rigid. Very, yeah. Never thinking. Never thinking. Never thinking. Convergent thinking. We've done it like this for the last 20 years and it's worked. Yeah, okay. Why do we need to change? Why do we need a new employee? Why do we need a different framework? Why do we need a different process? New process and frameworks are hard work. Yeah. They are hard work. Even though the potential gain is great. It's like changing a product, changing vendors, moving away from a company that has been, you've been working with or partnering with, doesn't come down to loyalty. It comes down to ease. Right. Yeah. It's, I mean loyalty is also a partner, but that's the secondary. We stay with a particular, or make a decision and stay with that and we commit to what you mentioned, a bit of commitment bias because it's easier to stay than to go. Also, we don't know what's going, what are we going to gain? The potential loss is greater that we don't want to risk it. That's what we're going to. But the term, the grass is greener. Yeah. Is it? You know, we look at it as a negative, although the grass is always greener. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is. Actually, let's look at that, rather than being epitomist, let's look at the off, let's be an optimist. It could be with sunflowers and roses and and tulips. We don't know, but do we take that lip? No. Right. So that grass is always greener cliche is basically to justify not making a move forward. Right. And there's other language around it. Treating stopping is failure. It's interesting. We're kind of scurrying around sunk costs. Fallacy a little bit here as well, I mean, which we're going to talk about in an upcoming episode. Yes. Does that? Is there a blur between those two? 100%. Okay. 100%. So some cost fallacy is more around commitment that you've committed so much to it that you can't let go, where loss of version is purely about not putting any kind of emphasis on again and protecting the loss. Okay. So a good example would be and this was a piece of research done in the States where you were in there was in that a target or one of the autogé one of those types of of shops or one of those stores and at the register you were given an option to get a five dollar voucher that you could use later or five dollars off your off your purchase right now. Right then and then what do you think happened? The right then and then. Absolutely. Right. Then and then and that's all very well to think about it for later. Now I want it now. Instinct notification. Yeah. And that's where that comes from. So I want it now because I don't want to lose that. You're giving me a voucher to use later but there's still a risk. There's still a risk. I have to wait. What happens if it doesn't work? I don't want it anymore. What happens if I the the P again rule I'm not coming back to this store because I've had a bad experience. I don't come back. I've missed down on that five dollars. Yeah. So I'll take it now. Thank you very much. Yeah. Makes sense. So when this is going on in a business and there's all this kind of language going on and lost the version is driving decisions what are teams often miss? So the tea it's happening at the business leader level maybe what are teams miss? Yeah. So there is a bit of a sard or a mask around it so it can it can look like someone is being really resilient and pushing through. It could be we talked about strong leadership but leadership in the wrong way but it can be oh they're they're leading us to to champion champion and idea and you always need to champion idea and you need to lead through it but you also need team buying. It looks like they're being curious and creative. It looks like they're being courageous. Yeah. But it's not about that. It's it's it's about is it the right decision for the group? Is it the right decision for the business? Sometimes weighing up the loss versus the gain is really important but we don't want to cloud that judgment. I mean I'm we are both neuroplasticians our entire work and our entire existence and for me I've been doing this for a very long time. Yeah. Is around neuroplasticity and broadening your thinking, broadening your skill set, creating new you know new or pathways for learning but at what cost. So I still weigh up the risk. Yeah. I still weigh up the risk. There are a lot of things that I could do that I don't because I need to protect the loss. Sure and I'm the same exactly the same. So looking at sales and marketing then how does it show up in sales and marketing? If we don't so well discounting is a big thing. So oh we've got a disc yeah but if you're going to discount and this is what I always say if you're going to actually discount don't think that you've got a good deal because you've discounted especially if you're working with Clinton I there's a huge scope of work. So you might think that I don't think that okay there's a there's a loss there but there is a there is a huge loss that's not the fact that you're going to discount's there. The fact that you're actually not going to get what you want or you may not be able to solve the problem as well or you're not going to get all the features or you're not going to get all the details. So are you willing to risk that that is one of the biggest things that I see. The other one and you talked about that that constantly you know this comes around change management and organizational change around continually throwing money at you know campaigns or continually throwing money at you know getting funding or grants for something that potentially you know isn't going to work but the stopping it seems as a failure or a loss. Yeah and we're so protective of that also what is expected behavior. For sure. Is it expected behavior to move forward or or or or or stop it takes a lot of courage to stop but if you are going to be losing you need to weigh that up but you could explain that a little bit better. Yeah look I've had a project where the instinct was to keep wishing forward because you want to get it right right for the client but and it just kept going on one more revision one more round and it became to the point where you just kind of have to stop and go what are we trying to achieve here like what's the what's the outcome. Let's make sure that we keep that at the forefront of what we're trying to achieve and and it's too easy often to just fall into minutia for all the way down into losing side of the brief and the big picture and I think that's a sign right of of of loss of version because you're so scared of losing that client because you're not servicing him in the way that they expect that you will do anything to retain them. So you start compromising integrity you start compromising on your process to make sure that you get it across the line so yeah it definitely still happens to me myself and I know it would happen to a bunch of other people too but it's it's that how do I stay aware and pull myself out of that before it goes too far down and go no we need to stop. And on you know in the in the world of influencers in the social media term you know people going to great lengths to make sure they don't lose followers or don't lose likes. Yeah. Rather than what can I gain from actually providing better content, better product, better this or a better campaign but you know I'm steadily growing I want to lose rather than looking at what the gain is it's I don't want to lose I want to stay where I am or or improve but I don't want to I don't want to be behind. Yeah. I don't want to I don't want it to be less and I will do whatever I can at all costs to make sure that doesn't happen. Yeah yeah push your so there's an interesting thing here I just want to get a definitive answer on what is the difference between persistence and loss driven behaviour. It can be blurred those two terms. Okay and so persistence is generally there's evidence so persistence is you know pushing forward and generally you know data driven or you have control so persistence. So this side of the gain. Yeah that's that's right. So persistence is is pushing is pushing through and you can also persist in the opposite too the persist to avoid the loss. Yeah. So persistence isn't always pushing forward it can be being persistent to protect what I actually lose where yeah loss aversion is focusing on the loss only rather than the gain. So we have you know a negative versus a positive here. Okay so persistence is guided by data. Yeah. And loss driven behaviour is guided by fear. Yeah. Yeah. So a bit of a mini checklist for listeners are we protecting an old decision? Are we avoiding a better option because it admits the current one failed. Just keep those in mind with any product service or decision. Now we're going to move to business and how to recover from a losing position. I think this is super critical. So winning from behind doesn't come from panic, comes from better thinking under pressure, which is often easier said than done. Yeah, right. So what should leaders do first when they feel behind? So need to identify the loss, need to identify what is and need to look at it with and getting external lens too. So identify the loss. What can we do better or the framework of stop, start, continue, improve, acknowledge it. Also, what is it that, what is the potential gain? And what risk do we need to take to potentially get and getting the outside perspective on outside lens? There is a game that I, when I run leadership psychology workshop for executives. And there is a game that I actually got from a very good leader and mentor of mine that I've known for a long time. And basically what it is, it's four people. So this is in a in a in person, you know, face to face workshop. So there's eight people in a group and you've got four people that are in inside circle. And then you've got four people on outside. So they're opposite their peers. And the inside person has 45 seconds to articulate a problem to the outside person. And the outside person has 60 seconds and believe me, I've got the stopwatch and I'm screaming, "Change, change, change." Yeah, I normally have no voice. Yes, correct, no voice after that, but it's good fun. And then the outside person has 60 seconds to solve the problem. And then they move, they move around. So then you get another person's perspective, another person's perspective. And then we do that. Everyone has a turn. Then we sit down and now I normally have about 30 minute reflection on what it happened. And just about every single time I do this exercise, people say to me, the problem that I had now does not seem as significant or as bad as what I thought it was. And I also got some really good solutions and outcomes from people that I never would have thought of. You're interesting, okay. So using that model in your business and with a team can help prevent or mitigate that feeling of loss and can push through it so you can then identify and then move forward in a positive way. Interesting, interesting technique. So what what else should they do? Leaders when they feel behind is that the size of naming the loss, what else should they do? Look at running through that process that you just discovered because they're just going to have access to you to do that. No, that's right. Yeah, we can all do it. She could all have me at a pub and it wouldn't be hilarious if we all got together and play. They actually maybe we should you're thinking about it because they're big good fun. So asking around, what's also changed in the business? What do we need to do better? Reflect on what's working? Reflect on what's not? And identifying also taking some space and even working out with a group is what are your present cons? What are the benefits are actually changing? What are the benefits are actually moving to a new platform or a new person in the team and then what are the negatives and weighing those up? But making sure that you don't just emphasize the loss that you've got to emphasize the gains. And if the gains outweigh the loss, we will move forward. We haven't come to where we are from caveman by constantly relying on loss. We've been able to move forward and identify the gains. But we need to be able to do that knowing that there is this bias called loss a version that will hold us back. I think a really key thing you touched on before though was the idea of getting an external set of eyes onto your business. That consumes scary. The word consultant gets painted around and it can sound expensive. I don't even like that. I just. But that tiny engagement where the consultant can identify what's going on within an hour sitting in a room with you is worth. It's waiting goal rather than spending the next six months burning money. I can give an example of business I'm working with at the moment where this is exactly happening. Having a fresh pair of eyes with different experiences, different language, different skills and expertise. We look at things differently. When you're not immersed. And emotionally involved in the project, you look at it with a different perspective. It's basically a smaller version of that game. That's right. It's a smaller version of that game that I was just explaining. It's important to do that. It's easy to get caught up and swept away in your own. Drinking your own cool aid. That's the term. This is why techniques talking different skillset here. But with art directors and copyurators in advertising and the design world, we'll use each other as sound boards all the way through a brief for that exact reason because an external set of ears and eyes and experiences will bring quickly poo-poo something that's dead in the water because you get so caught up in your own ideas and same two with founders and leaders. They're so swept away with their vision that it can get in the way of progress. And also another loss, reputational risk or feeling like a failure or being embarrassed. It's where psychological safety is really important in their team and for us. And I don't talk psychological safety around which a lot of people think, well, we're in a team environment. We're in a group and we're all saying to one another that this is a safe place and no one needs to be humiliated or embarrassed and all opinions are meaningful and significant. And then you walk out of the room and go, did you hear what Clint said? Who did he think he is? That's not psychological safety, but I see that a lot. psychological safety is an environment. It was a term coined by Amy Edmondson from Harvard Business School. I actually think she's doing a feature. I think she's coming to Australia actually. Okay. Yeah. Let's check in. I think it's and it around, yeah, this environment that you create from a social, psychosocial perspective around a community and an ecosystem of safety, not just a room or not just a meeting. That's the entire environment that you create, but that's really important. So if someone is made about about decision or this decision that collectively you've made it and it turns out to be a loss, you don't start blaming someone. It's like, okay, what do we do wrong? acknowledge it? How do we fix it? And like I always say, everything is fixable except death and potentially taxes. But everything is fixable. Yeah. Yeah. So for teams then, what should they avoid? Definitely the blame thing. The blame thing. I know. So and so and so did these. I didn't do that. But then we're happy to take someone else's credit for something that's good. Oh yeah. That's how it works, right? Do you call that human nature or just bad teammate? Bit of both. Bit of both. Bit of inflation of the ego because it makes us feel good. We might need that. So there's normally is an underlying issue with that when that tends to happen. But yeah, it's around, you know, okay, a bad decision was made regardless of who made that decision. How do we fix it? What do we do to mitigate that risk and move forward? So I see this a lot. So we've got to be careful around that within our business. We need to separate facts from interpretation. Did it really happen? You know, it's like when people say to me, or I have a client and they go, you know, this is my pricing. But every time I send my proposal off to a client and they say, you know, you're too expensive. And I say compared to what? Yeah. What that's this interpretation of the price? You've got to have some kind of reference or relevance. How do you know whether it's expensive or cheap? So the separating actual fact from interpretation is really important. Slow down decision making is also, and that's hard because we don't we're far, far, sort of thinking fast and slow, right? So we're constantly thinking fast, but pause. I know myself, if I have a hundred things going on in my mind and I can't give my full capacity to a particular, I say decision, I know that decision will be poor. And the only way that I do, there's a method that I do the only way I can slow down, I think because I do operate a very fast pace is by doing something called the four by four by four. So it will be breathe in for four seconds, hold my breath for four seconds, breathe out for four seconds. That gives me a different sort of, in a different phase of, it slows me down. It softens you a bit. It softens me. It reduces and down regulates my quarter's all. I can think more clearly, I can think better and then I'll move on. It's similar to the breathing square technique, right? Yeah, but I just do it in the three. So the square is the four. The four is in hold, out hold. Yeah. Which is one, like, you know, we've given my youngest, she's used the square whenever she was frustrated or, heightened with whatever experience she was, frustration she was going with, we would say, go and use the breathing square and that would just lower everything. Clarity comes back in, she can move forward, she can make better decisions. Yeah, there's a reason why if you've got a smart watch and as much as it annoys me, I get it, but there actually is a, psychological reason why there is the app or you get the trigger, you know, take a breath or move your legs at 60 minutes. Right. It's not there to annoy you. Everyone's going, "Oh my god, I turned it off." Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is been put there. There was signs behind it. It is a scientific technique that every 60 minutes to be, to work in the most optimized state that you actually need to. Now, don't go for, well, you can't go for walk for an hour, knock yourself out. I mean, that's not the intent. It's just for a minute or so to stop and breathe, do the triangle all the square, or get up, sometimes we'll make cup of tea or do something like that, to reset your gears. Yeah, you can. Otherwise, you are only going to make bad decisions. Yep. No, it works. Absolutely works. So, excitingly, you have a bit of a recovery framework that I like you to run through now. Can you explain it in high-level terms, what that framework is? It's sort of also, is a square. It is a square. It is. Okay. Because there's four sides. Okay. So, it's actually. The framework is, "Stop, start, continue, improve." And I use this framework in a lot of different situation and aspects. A lot of it within leadership space, but also it can be in a sales base, in marketing space, whatever. So, it's basically looking at your team, even if you're a very. You're a small business, and all that might be even if it's just you. It's look at the work that you're doing, look at the results that you're getting, looking at how you feel, because there has to be an emotional component, look at how your customers or your clients feel, and then take all that on board and then put this framework in place. What should you or do you think you need to stop? And it could be even around your own mental health, or it could be, I'm going to have a half a day here, or I'm going to stop taking on or clients that do this particular behaviour, or I'm going to stop going to so many events. Oh my God. Or I'm going to stop treating failures as a lot. So, I'm going to look at it as a growth strategy. So, I want everyone, actually, that's listening and watching, is to think, seriously, think about it. I know these are the farm podcasts, but we really all need to do this. What is it that you should stop in your business? And what do you want to start? And it could be something that you've thought about for a while, you had a chance, well, now you're a chance. You're going to be accountable to both Clinton and I. What is it that you want to start? That you know that you should start, or you want to start started? What do you want to continue? So, something that's working well, and you keep it going, and that's great. So, you want to continue, and also, what is something that you continually doing, and it's working well, but you could do it better, and that's the improve. So, stop, start, continue, improve. I've used a slightly different framework, but more at a personal level, and that was defining what behaviors you no longer think serve you, and then defining behaviors to replace those. And so, you slowly over time, removing ones that no longer serve you with the ones that do, and I found that super effective, actually. Not the same as that, but a similar technique. Yeah. Yeah. Here's the shift. When you're losing, the instinct is to push harder, but often that just narrows your thinking. Loss of version makes the brain protect what is already gone. It makes you chase recovery before you understand the problem. The way out is to name a loss, slow the reaction, widen the options, because once you've named the psychology of loss, you can stop being run by it. One action for the list of this week, pick one area where you feel behind sales marketing team performance, a project, write down what you have actually lost, then write down what you're afraid of losing, and all the way is the same thing. That's ThinkShift. I'm Clint. I'm Leane. One idea won't shift down to 30 minutes, if this episode changed how you think shirt with someone who makes decisions for a living. And guys, don't forget to follow, subscribe, like, think, shift on all the social channels, so you don't miss what shift is coming up next. See you the next episode. Ilayra.