S2 Ep.11 Can Upholstery Innovate Without Toxicity? The Delyth Fetherston-Dilke Conversation

A te lire et claque. Vicky Grub. A te lire et claque. C'est en dess. Ah si tu as l'air dessus. C'est en dess. C'est en dess. Laisons, gentelmen, et tous les gens sont en dess. Bienvenue dans cette podcast avec mes self-ray cartes. Et Vicky Grub. La belle Vicky Grub. Hello, yeah, I'm good, I'm good. Et aujourd'hui, les gens sont en dess. Il y a peut-être que si vous avez été en dess. Si vous avez été en dess. Les régulations, les sustanements. Et ce qui est sur le furniture, on se fait tout le monde. D'Elephyrustin Dilk. C'est ça, c'est ça, c'est ça. C'est quoi tu as le challenge? C'est ça, c'est ça, c'est quoi tu as. D'Elephyrustin Dilk est un oposteur à l'éducation de long-termes. Il a eu le même moyen de l'évolution du UK. risques particulièrement spectacular du offering et le extrême Croix, instalés des pouvoirs. Dans l'énonceuse, comment exhausting dinosaur. Dans l'é Alexis, on peut vous rep Historical pissedr掌. - Mais il y a des rekommences, les personnes qui робaient des raiesabordés sont des questions qui ont été en industrie. - C'est une fois que. - Oui, c'est une fois que le frère de l'élection est une fois de leur cliente est une des bruites. Et après avoir été là, 5 ans, les bruites me ont demandé de venir au revoir pour eux. Et donc, j'ai venu les dernières 14 ans avec une film-là. - Le film-là? - C'était très fun. - C'était très fun. - C'est pour des films et des choses comme. - Oui, Harry Potter et ER et Friends et TV-series. C'était tout le monde qui produisait. Nous avons été solides pour les télévision. Donc, je suis partie de l'éloïte. J'étais au monde. Et j'ai été une très bonne producte. Et puis, c'était très bon. Et puis, je pense que mes enfants étaient 6 ans 4. Le film était très bon. Et puis, je suis très bon. Et je suis très bon. Et je suis très bon. Je suis très bon. rédécrit la ville, et n' surtout n'était pas une paende, et on l'entendait sur une place pour le ruler Ladenburg. Et puis. - Oh, vous trouvez cela? - On l'entend今天. -?] Entre - 3 jours предen Lokzel - Nous avons voulu ondaire! - Sa approaching! ukan de l' MOMdiatiyim! - Antолет arm - Puis ça. - Vous trouvez avec Malkham Hopkins et. - Un petit peu de Malkham, mostly with Franco, avec Matt Gaetz. - Oh, Rafi Gaetz! - Oh, OK. - Oh, they were great. - Legends. - Je sais, et puis puis je me suis dit, et puis je me suis dit que chaque fois que je suis mangé, le jour où je suis oublié, donc je fais un course de carpenterie à London. Et puis puis puis je me suis fait le même chose, ouai, dans ce period, et puis je. - Garath, à l'école et à l'art, nous avons offeré un course en. - Enferner la France! - Oui, enferner la design. Donc je me suis dit que je ne suis pas en train de le faire, mais je m'en fous, parce que je suis Covid. Et ça c'est vraiment intéressant. C'est de la design des affaires de l'influence, de la start et de la stare dans les matériels. Et ça va sur la deuxième question, ce qui est de l'un de ces démons de l'économie. Comme que je suis certain que là, j'amedi la fois de sa disposition powdered, et là là la place le plus loin, c'est quoi ça? ♪ ♪ - Je fais un question avant cause de moi j'étais plutôt d' Kumar. Je fikais peu près l'août était happening! - & il est pensé à cooling! Et je claims que quand je parlais me dire "c'était bien surprising" pour la confronteduggling avec gare, mais ça agricultait intéressant de dire pas je n'avais qu'unBoy. Tout ça, je peux me dire, je peux me dire, je vais à un coffre qui est là, et 12 hats-lates, il va toujours être. Réder des étudiants de la biffmour en Amérique, qui étaient. - Biffmour! - C'est la fannature, magnifactrice, association en Amérique. - Ok. - Ah, ok. - C'est à la fin de votre vie, c'est à faire le fil de la biffmour, - à l'industrie de la biffmour. - Oh, complètement, complètement. - Donc, je me suis dit que. - Oui, à la fois, quand tu fais le fil de la biffmour, tu fais des phones, tu fais des différents matériaux, comme si tu fais des pouls de la biffmour, - Oui, donc. - Je fais des phones en 2 de l'un de mes, et. Mais même là-bas, je me suis dit que je ne voulais pas être associé avec les chemicals, donc je ne voulais pas vraiment être une chose, je suis juste la chose de 3 temps. - 3, 4, 5, 5. - Oh, wow. - Oui, de la biffmour. - Et c'est quand tu fais des phones, tu fais des phones en 2 de l'un de mes, je suis juste. - To be fair, vraiment. - Je me suis dit que je suis en la Bretagne-Standard-Commitium, de la saïfeté, et je suis en la présente des phones et des phones, et ils sont l'un de leurs mains, c'est pas un. Ils sont l'un de leurs mains, par la l'administration, qui dit que c'est un phoé de sa pêche, sur sa pêche, il doit être testé avec un bon phoé de la middle. Un bon phoé de la match-stix. Donc pour ceux qui ne les réalisent vraiment, ce que le phoé est tout à l'heure, parce que nous, comme les hostes, vous avez besoin d'une insline, vous avez besoin d'une. Mais, comme vous dites, quand vous allez en avoir une petite dive dans ce que vous avez dans ces chérioles, vous ne ne vous ne savez pas, mais c'est un phoé de la flametest, ce n'est pas le point de vue. Ce n'est pas le régulation, vous avez besoin d'aller à l'aise de chemicals. - Oui, oui. - C'est correct. Donc, les régulations, je peux en préparer, mais c'est un phoé de la flametest. - Je suis très bien en train de faire un phoé de 6 ans. - OK, c'est pas un phoé. - OK. - Donc, le phoé de la flametest est testé avec cette petite bosse de match-stix, - de la flametestix, - Oui. Et c'est lit, c'est. - C'est un phoé de la flametestix. - OK. - On va faire un phoé de la flametestix. - Oui, oui. - Dans la boxe, dans la boxe. - Dans la boxe. - Dans la boxe, dans la boxe, dans la boxe. - C'est un phoé de la flametestix, dans la boxe. - C'est tout régulé. C'est tout en train de faire le phoé de la flametestix. - OK. Et vous levez la flametestix, et ça se fait une. - Oui. Et ça ne peut pas, parce que le phoé de la flametestix, c'est un phoé de la flametestix. - Donc le phoé de la flametestix, c'est un phoé de la flametestix. Et c'est pourquoi ces chemiques ont été passées. - Vous pouvez le faire comme un phoé de la flametestix. - Oui, mais les hydacres sont des prises et psychiatriques. - Et des publics? - Non, des publics. - Mais vous avez aussi le phoé de la flametestix. - Ok. - Et le phoé de la flametestix est testé de cigarette match. - C'est quand on est à l'OBS 5852, 0-1. - Oui, donc le phoé de la flametestix, ils la laissent cigarette, et ils laissent là. Et c'est un phoé de la flametestix qui va se faire enburning. - Non, parce que le phoé de la flametestix est maintenant à la fin de la fin de la flametestix, qui va s'enbler, si ce n'est pas puissant. Pour s'enbler. Mais le phoé de la flametestix est un phoé de la flametestix qui va s'enbler, donc que ce n'est pas du fabrique. - Je sais juste ce que vous avez dit. - C'est OK, est-ce que ce n'est pas vraiment de la flametestix. Et il n'est pas de la flametix dans les autres, donc. - Je pense que avec 33. Je pense que 33% de nous nous ont smoké quand les violences sont inventées. Et nous avons environ 12% maintenant. - De ces 100% nous nous avons smoké. Nous nous avons maintenant 20% de nous nous nous avons smoké. Pour être clair, le nouveau gouvernement de la flametestix est que nous nous nous sommes en train de s'enbler. Stream 100, on compte d'atre, on en a protestantかった comme le premier et combatement. - It is really because when you look at the stats for actually what causes fires, it's kitchen. - They don't cause deaths though. - So kitchen fires is one of the biggest - Yes, kitchen fires. - Electrical fires. But the actual furniture, so you're saying that furniture fires actually cause, they actually have statistics that show what furniture fires cause deaths. - The statistic, there are those statistics. - Yes, and I've spent absolutely years studying them and going right back to the raw statistics on it because I didn't want to, it felt a bit of a scary voice talking of this years ago, and I didn't want to be doing anything that was irresponsible. And what is the most compelling statistic is that the World Health Organization has created fire fatality statistics right the way across Europe. So every country in Europe, it's worked out what the fire fatalities are. And in the UK, we're looking at fire fatalities per year of around the 220-ish mark. - 22,000 people. - No, people. - Total. - A year. - Fatalities. - That's just so tiny. - I mean, I'm not just missing, obviously a death is a trashic. - Yeah, true. - But it's not as many as I think people fear. Now, the position that the flame retardant companies take is that that number is so low because flame retardants are added. - Right. - And certainly that number used to be higher. It used to be more in the 790 deaths per year. - But then more people were. - 30 years ago. - But more people were smoking. - Yeah. - They didn't have, we've got 93% smoke alarms now. - Yeah. - It was 8% back in 1988. And smoke alarms are amazing. - Daniel, what is wrong with the current deregulations? - Okay, what is wrong with the current regulations is the open flame source. It's the fact that a Buntson burner is put against your sofa and a hell bear. And that is what's wrong with the regulations. - The test is wrong. - The test is wrong. Because that test is not there in America, is not there in Europe, is not there in the rest of the world. And that means. - What have we got in here? - We've got it here because it was put in in 1988. And. - After that fire in Mouwers. - After the fire in Woolworths in Manchester. And the fire was started by a cigarette. And so what the government have now moved, I think it's really sensible position. It's to say, even though less of us smoke, even though we've got smoke alarms, let's still protect against that cigarette, which is still a relevant cause. And so all of our, we're gonna have a choice. Either we test the composite. That means. - No, the whole piece of that chair. - Well, it would be a representative sample. - Right, including the word, including the phone. - No, but actually, I can't actually say that bit because that bit will be determined by British standards. - Okay, we can come up. - And we're not there yet. - No, no, no, I'm happy to say it. - I'm happy to say it. - But from the guidance we've got from the government so far, it looks like a representative sample would be tested. So imagine, you know, a dining seat size slab of what you're gonna build. And so if you're someone really big, like Ikea, for example, you would test that slab. And that would be the way you'll grow. But if you're a bespoke manufacturer of one-off headboards, each one being completely original, you may prefer that each individual layer is tested. And you just buy the layers, and then you put them together how you want to. And the government's gonna give you the choice. So there are three big questions that they are asking us to say yes to. - So the consultation is out right now, isn't it? - Yeah, and it's due, the deadline for it is in June. - 23rd of June. - Yeah. - And. - Day four months birthday. - What they, what they can't forget it. - And what the government is wanting is for people to give the answers to these three, like they're expressed as four questions. And if they've got anything new to say, any bit of relevant information, you can add that. But you don't need to, you can just answer your questions. It's a really well thought through consultation. And my answer is to share, well yes, yes, yes, and yes. So it's, yes, I would like you to move to a cigarette test and to ditch the Buntson burner. - Right. - Yes, I would like us to have the flexibility to choose whether to test a mock-up composite or to test individual layers. Yes, I would like upholstery to be treated under the general product safety regulations. And yes, I would like second hand furniture to be treated under the general product safety regulations. And the dog is trying to bury herself under the table. - No, no, I might seem a little, a might seem a little distracted. We have got dogs underneath us. - Yes. - It was very frustrating. - Australia. - I spoke to Ian Toffy, who are really kicking up the storm under there. The regulations, they changed it there. A couple of years ago where they started to take out certain things to do with babies and cats. - Yeah, absolutely. - So that was like the starting point to it. Do you think this goes far enough, this change that you see sort of developing? - I do. I think they've got more work to do because we need labeling. And we need mattresses to be included. However, I'm sure that labeling and mattresses and the things they're going to be working on right this minute. And that when they've reviewed the consultation responses, they will then come out with their final proposal. And at that point, I would hope that labeling and mattresses are also included. Mattresses because I think it's 6.4 million mattresses go to landfill every year. And if we think, I mean, we've kind of on this because YouTube read so much. And I honestly don't know what I'm talking about. I've been talking so much the last two weeks. I haven't really gone into what my objection is to the use of these chemicals. But my objection is three things. So the chemicals are persistent. - That means they last long. Correct. They can last a long time. Now that can be 10 years, 20 years, 40 years or several lifetimes. - I feel like, I mean, I'm not the sharpest tool in the box at the best of times. But I feel like I might have lost a few IQ points just from handling if our chemicals, can I test this? How do I find out if I, you know? - They're doing this in Bantha, aren't they, with the PFAS? So lots of people, I think, confuse. There's a lot in the news at the moment about PFAS, which are completely different to chemical flame retardants. There are different group of chemicals that think of a Teflon pan or think of what proof mascara. - The Teflon has been out, Lord knows. Now, is Ireland they using? - Well, there's. - I know on certain shares that use Ireland instead of Teflon remember? - Oh, yes, yes. The whitish. - Well, there was literally in the newspaper here in the UK. I mean, America's ahead of us on this. There was an amazing film with Mark Ruffalo called "Dark Waters". - I'm seeing it, yeah. - I'm seeing it. - Oh, it's so good. It's so good. - He's a lawyer and he's deep diving into why people working in the Teflon pan are getting ill. - We can be talking to people. - Oh, wow, really? - And he's being attacked by the chemical companies. - Yeah, yeah. - So he's nevertheless carrying on fighting and sitting at a room with pay property here. And interestingly, he, Mark Ruffalo, who worked on that film, worked with Fiedra, who are an environmental charity in Scotland, who I take my hat off to because they have been so helpful to me. And the times was very nice saying, "Oh, you know, Delity, you've done this campaign on your own." It's not on my end. - Well, there are absolutely. - But you have the whole host of other people who are embedded in this. - And the scientists. - And who's been so willing to share and Fiedra is one of those people. And then the Cancer Prevention Society. - But there's a difference between, like, you know, like I've got an opinion about it, but there's a difference between actually like pushing forward like you have, you know? So that's. - What's your opinion about? - My opinion. - Yeah. - Well, I'm skeptical actually about how, you know, the industry says that fire retardants, and are needed for furniture because they, you know, otherwise it's our safeties that actually. - Mm-hmm. - I'm skeptical of that. - That's. - Yeah. - I'd love to talk on that point. - Yeah. - You told the rest of the skeptic - Yeah. - For a second. - Yeah. - And that's a dress, no. - I'll follow your message. - I thought you were going to die off the life. - No, no, that was me being a bit passionate. - No, no, no. - No, we won that. - Okay, this was another of the deep dives I've done. And initially, I read a paper that was produced, a scientific study that was produced by a guy called Blaze in America. And in it, it talks about the 16-minute delay that these chemicals can give in the event of accidental ignition of a sofa. 16 minutes. Wow. And I was like, oh, wow, that's quite a big, that's a big amount of delay. Yeah. But then who's, who's sponsored that study? Who paid for it? So then the more I looked into it, you find, oh, it's paid for by, I'm going to name the, the trade body now, but it's something like the American Association of Flame Retardant Chemical companies. So basically they're skewing there. They're totally skewing it. Now, there, then there then was another study by a gentleman called V. Tobarabascas that criticized this study. But the problem is that it's smoke alarm is what you want. You want the smoke alarm to go off. Now, if you're dropping a cigarette and there's a two minute delay to ignition, that's not helping you because it's a delay to the smoke alarm going off. And they have two real concerns, I think. One concern is how is it that the far stats analysed by the World Health Organization are the same across Europe. How can we have the same number of far fatalities as France, Sweden, as Italy, as Germany, as Portugal, as Spain, as everywhere? That doesn't make me sense. It makes no sense when they have different regentials. No chemicals. And we have the chemicals. That's the first thing. And then the second big thing is that when there is a fire, which there always will be, the chemicals do not purport to stop a fire, they purport to delay ignition. When there is a fire, the presence of chemical flame retardants exacerbate the smoke. So hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide are given off burning foam and burning FR treated fabric. And those disable a victim to stop them being able to exit a fire. They also can. It used to be that burns killed pre-1988 and it's moved. If you look at the fire fatalities, it's moved from burns killing to smoke killing. Now flame retardants are not the only thing responsible for that. No. There's also plastic toys and PVC windows, yeah, polyester carpets. Yeah. But if you think of one sofa, two armchairs, four double mattresses. Yeah, the majority of the furniture in your home. If you think of a small two-up dude downhouse, that is a lot of big proportion of the volume of the home. Yeah. That is one chemical of a sofa. So I think 80% of the sofa is sofa. Yeah. 20% of the sofa is chemicals. Do you want to know what might be the problem? That's incredible. So just repeat that. So 80% of your sofa is sofa. Right. 20% is chemical flame retardants. 20%. I don't think the general public don't know that today. They really don't know that. They know thanks to Martian as article in the Sunday Times. Yeah. But you know, today I bumped into, not bumped into, I arranged to meet a friend who is from Kingston because I used to live there. And I said, I was seeing you and she said, "Oh, what's that about?" So I was just giving her a little description and she immediately went to safety, "Oh yes, but safety." You know, a fire in a home, you know, it's got to have chemicals in it because of the safety. People don't know. The general public don't know. But I think the opposite is the opposite. I think the opposite is the opposite. It's not the opposite theory, but the actual truth. What I'd like to do is I'd like us to look to fact, to logic and to science. What I would not like us to look to do is to look to emotion and to history. And what I find is that the people who are challenging the position I take, they talk emotion, they talk history. So they talk the Woolworths fire, they talk the emotion of the death of somebody in a fire, which is horrific. And in no part is what I want to put forward. That should be diminished. No, no, absolutely. And I do think that when 45 to 75% of fires are caused by a cigarette, then continuing with a mandated cigarette test is a really pertinent, sensible way forward. And if you look at the literally thousands of studies linking chemical flame retardants to autoimmune issues, to cancer, to developmental issues and children, to infertility. It's not one or two studies, it's one or two thousand studies. It's a body of evidence, which is huge body of evidence. We were at the furniture comparison. Last month. And we spoke to a couple of manufacturers and learnt a lot of about phoenix. We spoke to lots, but in our podcast, we spoke to a couple, didn't we? And one was phoenconversion. I learnt a lot of that phoenconversion. And the other one was a phoenix that who are a international fabric distributor, two million metres of fabric into the UK every year. Most important of that uses air fr chemicals. But they are the biggest. They are the biggest. Everything goes to their factories. So in the podcast, they talked about how if we take FR or fabrics from a manufacturing point of view, it's going to stop manufacturing, not completely so, but it's going to reduce manufacturing massively in the British in Britain. And there's going to be a huge amount of imports coming in from China. And so it was reducing FR on fabrics was going to impact British manufacturing. Okay, so I'm just going to read not the whole thing. The last bits of the public statement that they released on social media. Yeah, about the FR. A bad affair for regulations. We continuously evolve our products, incorporating the latest investments in fabric technology, chemical back coating processes and formulations to ensure optimal performance. Those these proposed changes will result in a greater number of fires, as well as fires that are more severe and hard to control, putting lives that significantly increase risk and leading to more injuries and deaths in people's homes. This is an unacceptable consequence of weakening safety standards. We are unequivocally opposed to any legislative changes that compromise product safety and will continue to challenge them at every stage, insisting that protecting human life must come before all other considerations. So if this legislation was to go through, we ask the question, whose names are responsible for having blood on their hands, regards team Tokyo. Having listened to my spit that spiel there, what would be your response? So my response is that my main name is protecting human life. And that's something they've just mentioned. And the logic and the science shows that protecting a human from sitting on a sofa that puffs out chemical flame retardants, that are toxic to human health, that will pass through breast milk, that will cross the placenta, that will alter how an organ of a small child develop. Is the most important way to protect human life? And if you look at the quantity of fire deaths and you look at the quantity of children we have in the UK, the quantity of pregnant mothers, the quantity of workers in the furniture industry, who are exposed to these chemicals, the quantity of workers in the upholstery industry, the numbers do not tally up. It is always like a seesaw, your balancing, fire safety against protecting human life in chemical exposure. And you cannot let the emotion and the history on fire safety outweigh the facts and the science on the numbers of people exposed, the numbers of people at risk, and the numbers of people dying in every single other European country who do not have to be subjected to the chemical exposure levels. That's my answer to Tokyo fabrics. Rare I've got confession to make, I want stated a tool. Now we're talking heartbreak or hardware. Staple gun, my B.E.A. Honestly it's been more arrival than most people I've ever worked with. Oh totally, mine's taking a beat in over the years, still fires like day one, no jams, no weird noises, just solid work. I use 71 series 421 staple gun most days, but I've also got long nose 436 for those awkward bits. You just know it's going to deliver clean staples every time. And it doesn't wear arm out either, especially when you're working on a big frame or doing repeat jobs. Powerful, reliable and never ghost to me mid-project, legendary and dependable. Bit like me really. The only difference is my B.E.A. doesn't mean I want to drop it. We still talking about tools here, I've got feelings you know. So if you're tired of unreliable tools and dodgy knock off staple guns and want to upgrade your kit now's the time. Head to the link in the show notes and you'll get 10% off your first purchase on guns and staples using the code sit on this 10. B.E.A. staple guns, powerful, precise and honestly a lot easier to live with than some of the tools I've known. The staple smart, sit on - Come back. - As I say, I am skeptical of the way that the manufacturing industry as a whole comments around safety side of things 'cause my personal opinion, and which I was gonna mention earlier, - Sorry, yes. - That actually what will happen is innovation will actually take over. - These fabric companies, and these furniture companies are run by clever people who will adapt. - Yeah, when cars have led removed, they adapted. When builders had to remove the spesitos, they adapted. Now furniture companies are gonna have to adapt. And I know they cannot put the whole nation's health at risk to protect their market share, which is what has been happening. Yes, they're right, that has been happening, but that is not just, and it is not fair, and it is not gonna continue. - It's the, absolutely. And it's trying to continue just because of the space quo, isn't it, it's busy, because it's always been like that, and it's easier not to change. - I admit it's a challenge for them, and the challenge that I'm being telephoned about at the moment is a challenge, which is that the Sunday Times article came slightly out of the blue. I mean, I first spoke to Martina two years ago, and she's spent an inordinate amount of time researching this, going to Sweden to meet IKEA, going up to Lancashire to meet the Department of Fire Science. Science, she did a lot of research before putting such a bold article out there. - Absolutely, it's a brilliant piece of investigative journalists. - Yeah, it was. - It was really, really strong. - It really was. - They left, this has been like an absolutely terrifying, but fascinating, but also hopefully optimistic, like conversation. What are your top three, five? - Seven. - Nine. (laughing) - I don't know, tips. What are your tips for the general public in terms of how to? - Okay, first of all, sign this consultation. We have not got the change through yet, and we need this change. It's not tricky. If you just Google the words proposal, furniture fire safety, it will pop up on your screen. There are four questions. I don't see yes to all of them. That's the first tip. The second, directed at furniture workers and upholstery, upholstery is number one, open your windows. However cold you get, open your windows. - I don't have a pop, open your windows, but they're over six feet high, I've got it. - Open them, open them. That is because these chemicals are volatile. That means that they will be leaving the foam. - Yes. - All the time. They're not chemically bound into the foam. - All right. - And TCPP is one of the chemicals, and it was only three weeks ago now that the World Health Organization has named TCPP as a probable carcinogen. So ideally you'd put your foam in an ideal world in a ply box or in another room. And ideally you would open up your back coated fabric when it arrived, take it out of the plastic so it can off gas. And ideally that would be happening in another room with windows open. You've got to think of all of these chemically treated things. They off gas meaning they give off the chemicals. - Sure. - And you don't want to be breathing that in and you don't want them to permeate your space. - I think it's going to get my blood stem. - So I think I'm going to make it space. - Let the more gas where you are not or open your windows hours early. So that's your first one. They settle, they're attracted to fats. So they will attract to the dust on the floor because the dust is full of fats, skin. And so Hoover, not a great idea to brush, Hoover because brushing just makes them come up into the air again. So Hoover wet mop and keeping you in disopen where those latex gloves, if you're the two main times when the chemicals are going to come out a lot is when a piece of furniture's old and the foam's dust, that's really bad. Be covered up, have overalls that you work in the workshop, take them off when you come out of the workshop. Just get into that discipline, put up a hook by the door. So put a mask on if you're going to be stripping down a mask and an overcoat and then Hoover and mop and then move on. It is taking more time, it is taking more discipline and hopefully in-- - Time equals cost as well. - Time equals cost as well. So there's a hidden cost actually. - The really is a hidden cost and it's not very hidden, it's really quite a major cost. - What about, like in terms of my health? I feel like you're speaking directly to me, but you kind of are, but you're not. It's been to general public, obviously. But what about my health? What about our pollster's health? Those up pollsterers who've been on the bench for 10, 20, 30 years and they're only just hearing about all of this now. - What kind of physical things can-- - Should, I mean, is that how-- - Well, tell-- - Tell, if you have an issue, whether it's a respiratory issue, a fertility issue, a cancer issue, a child with developmental issues, then do tell your doctor, tell your GP that you're on a pollster because you are in a high risk trade. - I turn wild. - And they need to know that. - Because they don't really consider it. - I don't know if they do, because it will go into a database. - I don't, I tell my GP that I do a pollstrum. Oh, that's nice. I've got a sofa at home. That's the first thing they say. And they don't consider the health implications and such. - Well, public health England have, I mean, I've been in contact with public health England a couple of years ago now, but they have just issued guidance for our pollsters, which says, keep your phone in a separate room, unwrap your fabrics when they arrive, let them off gas when you're not there. - So, all of these things I do not do, I don't do any of them, I don't. - I need to start thinking about this. - And the other point that I wanted to get across was that I do appreciate that if I was currently a furniture manufacturer with 50 employees, this is a difficult time. - Yeah. - You've got employees saying, what about the front page of the times? Are you responsible for making me sick? - Yeah. - Is this a sickness I'm not going to see for 10, 20 years? - Yeah. - It could be. - I'm not underestimating that that is a really difficult time. And that doesn't mean that you shoot the messenger. I'm trying to make a change that means in nine months or so time we will be in a better position where furniture manufacturers will not be feeling that they're exposing workers. And right now having extraction systems put in is a really good idea. It's all about ventilation. That's a key. - We're still going into the atmosphere. - And the other issue is that this is an opportunity because there might be an awful lot of people who are now thinking, okay, well, I would like a healthier sofa. So this could be seen as a market opportunity. And I work with a few furniture companies who've decided to transition away from a petrochemical filling into a natural fiber filling. - So no foam, no polyester, no decron? - Correct. Completely natural solution, but not in a traditional upholstery stuffed and stitched manner in a modern solution. And this I think is, I want, well, I'm really enjoying. - I'm helping furniture manufacturers. - From a teacher, I just wanted to say from a teacher point of view. You know, it's something that obviously we talk about health and safety, like, oh, you know, don't point the staple gun into your leg. It's stuff like that, you know. - That's fine. It's important to breathing in the chemicals, yeah. - Well, I think this is the thing, like, you know, to actually, in the whole concept of a set of a workshop, like maybe this should be like an actual written build-up lie box. - Yeah, this is exactly how you need to be doing this. But, you know, actually, the first thing needs to come from me because I need to set the example too. It's, haven't going into teaching every stuff this September, you know, I'll be-- - I know, congratulations. - Yeah, we've got some exciting. - We're very excited. - Yeah. You know, I think it's definitely going to have to be on my agenda, like, when we're talking about workshop, set up and things, but also, I'm going to need to show, you know, show by example as well. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - Having said that, this is the other thing. Have you got, like, little samples of sustainable wood and these materials that you recommend that a poster is could use? Have you got anything I'm looking around? - Um, yeah, they're not knocking around. They're all wrapped up upstairs. But, yes, I've just basically spent, I don't know, 10 years, 11, 12 years, just figuring out what who sells water, and it's just manner. Oh, and that was actually-- that was something else I wanted to raise, which is when you're buying stuff, ask questions. And when you get no answer, which is what you will get at. Ask again, and ask again, and ask again. You want to ask, can I have the safety data sheet? Is it treated with chemical flomerotardoms? And a big one that I notice on Instagram that I think lots of people are maybe not aware of is that most of the rubberized hair we buy is treated with cancer. chemical flame retardants and some of the most of the coir, most of the loose coir we buy. I saw that. I saw that. And who was it? White was it white bond? It was white. Natia at white bond. She spoke about that very well. And I actually went and I asked my local supplier and they were and oh no, no, no, no, no, no, they had no idea. I know. And then I opened it up. The little bits flew out. The white bits. The white bits. And the white bits are super dangerous because you're not actually scrunching that coir, aren't you? In your space. Taking apart and rolling it. And all those all the rubberized hair shapes that are green, right? As opposed to grey or orangey or brownie. All the ones that have green tinge are treated with chemical flame retardants. And there's a big amongst amongst the people who don't have the same view as me, which are the polyester fabric manufacturers and the chemical flame retardant companies. Yeah. And the testing houses possibly some of them. There is a big green wash around organic phosphate flame retardants. So just talking the chemicals for a moment. And historically, we used backcoat fabrics. And that would mean putting a brominated or chlorinated hydrocarbon on the back. Yeah. Now the reason you put brominated or chlorinated hydrocarbon is because it does not dissolve in water. It's not water soluble. And the brominated are so clearly under attack as persistent organic pollutants, although every time one gets named as a persistic organic pollutant, the chemical manufacturers come up with a regrettable substitution, which means a chemical that's distressingly similar. Just rebranding. It is. Well, it's not just rebranding. They are changing the molecular makeup only with the time. For example, you've got the moment most of the back coating is decabromo-difinal ethane, but previously you had hepta and you had penta and you had and they've all got banned. So they just add form. It's just when you've got my blood stunts. Those chemicals that you've just mentioned would appear in my blood. I don't know because some pass through urine, some will remain in your fat cells, so it wouldn't necessarily. Some will be shown in blood and some will be shown in hair and it will depend upon the chemical. Now the chemicals going into foam, a TCP/Pm melamine, and the chemicals going into fabric, decabromo-difinal ethane or another variant in back coating. But then you have the thing that I think is another massive green wash, which is the word inherently flame retardant fabric. Yeah. So just to explain what that is like viscose and Oh, no, are you talking about natural fabric? No, I'm going to say no when you're buying a polyester. Yeah, you often see the word this is inherently FR passes cigarette a match. Because I thought I thought viscose is treated in the weave rather than a bath or correct. Right. So what it is is it's where the polyester, when it's in liquid form, is treated with the chemical flame retardants, which then don't need to be the brominated type because they are chemically bound into the polyester. And so then it's extruded as a filament. And then that filament is woven. Now that is what is being sold as an eco textile. I was going to say I thought, oh, inherently, oh, that must be natural. That must be everyone thinks that and it is not the truth. Right. The truth is that the chemical flame retardant is embedded. Now, whether that gives off as much of the chemicals in off-gassing, possibly less, I do believe it will still go give off chemicals by abrasion. And we sit on sofas. And at end of life, meaning when you don't want that sofa anymore, the chemicals cannot be separated from the fabric. So you've rendered your sofa as a sofa that requires incineration along with hospital waste at 800 degrees as toxic. So I think though I see where they were going with the inherent fibres. Yeah. To try to solve the brominated problem, I think they've created another problem. And I think it is a problem that we're not being told the full picture. No, I definitely wasn't until this conversation. Yeah. And I feel that's. Oh, yeah. That is interesting. And I think also that leaves quite naturally into the conversation around the life cycle because we talk a lot about F R and having an impact on us as a pollster's and the people actually buying the sofa and putting them in the home. But like I think people forget that they have to end up somewhere as well. And they're actually ending up in land. Well, then, well, this is the tricky point in Cinerator. It's the incineration. So defra for many years, it was almost like defra and department and business and trade was sort of not seeing eye to eye, let's say, because defra brought out the waste upholstered domestic seating regulations, the woods. And they said that every sofa that contained a pop, which is a band flame retardant, has to go to be incinerated. So they'd said that. Obviously, December 22, I think, quite some years ago. So since then, when you go to your dump, yeah, you will see a separate skip. And if you notice, all the sofas go in there. And the reason all the sofas go in there is it's very difficult to tell whether the chemicals in that sofa are the band ones or the ones that are not quite yet banned. Right. So what they have is they have an XRF machine, which measures whether it assesses whether there's a brominated flame retardant in that sofa. And if there is, they decide it has to go for incineration. So all the comments about our sofa is going to going to landfill. Yeah. Our mattresses are going to landfill, but our sofas are going to be incinerated at a humongous cost to the councils, which varies from, I think it's 12 or 20 pounds to 500 pounds per sofa to incinerate it. And some of them were only purchased for 300 pounds. So we've put a really intolerable burden on the councils. And part of what these new regulations will effectively do is allow for a circular economy in furniture, so whether currently isn't one. So that's one part of the proposed changes that I mean, is several sounds of it sounds really positive. Yeah. Are there any other parts of the proposed changes that are positive? That are positive. They're exciting. You are all. Yeah. I mean, it all excites me because it's going to allow a manufacturer or an upholstera or bespoke one-off pieces, manufacturer upholstera to design out the chemicals if they wish to. It allows us to have flexibility, whereas now we have no flexibility. If you use foam, the chemicals are there. And you can, and I do, and that's what I'm working with my clients on is if you're using natural fibers, you can design out the chemical flame retardants now and pass the fire eggs, but it is difficult. And they are going to make that process more accessible. So yes, I am excited. But on that inherent point and on that green sheen of rubberized hair, we need the labeling and on the XRF machines, we need the labeling so that the waste disposal people know what to do. Yeah. So the upholstera is know what they're buying. So that furniture manufacturers can give out the correct information in their digital product passports, which are going to come along as to what's in the product. Someone's like digital passports. There's going to, in Europe, they are further ahead than us, but there is going to be a time and a place where there will be, you'll be able to scan the label of what you buy and find out its ingredients. Like its source. Yeah. Wow. I didn't know that's amazing. That will help with end of life disposal, but it will also help with consumer led movement towards a circular economy. Because I think like with anything, if it's labeled, it's a bit like calories, isn't it, when you're going to see market? Yeah. It does make you make a better decision, doesn't it? On things. So I think that's half of my problem with this is I, I, you know, my background is a huge environmental impact. I was doing environmental impact assessments, you know, before I was in the ultra, right? Okay. So, you know, obviously environmental issues quite important to me, but I find myself like with foam, just, and that it just, I've just sort of carried it on because at the end of day, it was what was given, it was sort of shown. So we'll just use that, you know, I didn't really think about the consequence. When we were doing the component show of a day, and the foam supplier converter was saying about how they using plastic bottles and recycling into their warding and things like that, I was like, oh, that's a great idea, you know, it's recycling something that we're not using anymore, but then I walked away thinking, hold on a minute, that's what's the life cycle of that? Because is like, okay, you're using something to create something, which is those plastic bottles should be recycled into plastic bottles, not taken out and put into sofas. Well, that's it. We need that source of waste plastic bottles to supply the huge demand for recycling plastic bottles. That's what makes a product to be sustainable. It needs to be circular. You don't need to be downcycling things. And at the moment, polyester, recycling of things. No, recycling that you can do that. I don't know. That's what we do. We like that. Okay. But for, yeah, for example, at the moment, the polyester fabric that's inherently FR, meaning it's got the chemicals embedded, that technically is not capable of recycling into more high grade upholstery fabric. That's not technically possible. And the foam that we make, it is not technically possible to recycle that chemically. You can, you can take your offcuts, mechanically chop them up. Yeah. And they can be turned into carpet underlight. Yeah. Recon. Recon. Yeah. But that is virgin foam waste that is downcycled. It's not being recycled. Right. And so we're also in the UK missing out on the circular economy and foam because in France, they've got a Dow chemicals plant. That is taking foam and recycling it into new foam. We're losing all those investments. No idea. We can't do that. We can't do that. We can, but we won't. Well, we know we can't. You can't, because when you try to break down the polyols and the isosignites in the foam, the chemical flame retardants will exacerbate that breakdown process. They will, they will interfere because they'll be, they'll be released into the atmosphere when that's happening. Yeah. All right. Delif, you've been practicing your craft, this beautiful craft, which we all share for what, 12 years about that 10 years from now, assuming all things considered, you're still practicing the beautiful craft. What would you like to see change in this industry? What, what in 10 years from now? How can you imagine my mission has been made to make furniture healthy? And I have felt that we're, we're on a way to realising the problems with clothing, with food. But why was furniture left out? And it's to build awareness that you can build healthy furniture. You can look to natural, renewable sources to build your furniture. You can use resources that have not got a pathway elsewhere. And you can build beautiful furniture. You can take all the techniques that we learned in traditional upholstery. And then apply them in a modern way. So what I obsess about other than flame redundance is, which of metal is quite, quite a lot. And is using natural fibres, but in a, in a manner that is capable of mass manufacture, rather than using them in a traditional manner, which is beautiful, but takes an awful lot of skill and awful lot of time and, I know, if you can afford that. Exactly. Exactly. So I would like to, I would like to persuade more furniture manufacturers to adopt the use of natural fibres. And I think that is possible. But, but do you think it's possible with, because natural latex, that's right, is so much more expensive. Do you see the prices of that coming down in the future? So nothing's coming down. No, but do you think because there's more demand, so there's more, you know, competition for it. I, I guess that's what I'm saying, because it's at the moment. Very little competition for these natural fibres at the moment. I think we've got sort of almost two suppliers of graphite latex. Yeah. But it might be that we no longer need graphite latex. We might just need latex and then find a way of that passing as a composite. And then we're buying the same product that they're buying in Europe. And so maybe then we might see more competition in the marketplace for latex. But there's also a limit on the number of rubber trees out there. So you have to take that into account. I'd like to see more sheet materials coming from hemp from flax, more innovation in the marketplace of natural fibres, because I think we could look at a fiber that's local, that's available, that's not currently being used. And find a way of making that into sheet materials for instance, for instance, mountain wool that is not a sheet. Mountain wool is one of the grades of wool that is used less, for example, in jumpers and things like that, because it's slightly coarser. And I like to see fibres being blended so that you get the qualities of one fibre and you mix it with another that fills in quality missing in the first. So for example, wool is really good at being fire retardant, not so great with its bounce. And then quayr is a little bit flammable, but then again, it's not going to give off nasty fumes, you mix it with wool and it gives bounce. And if you can create these in a sheet material form, then they can be really, I just think there should be a lot more innovation and competition, I have to say. Have you spoken with Chris from NCARV? Because I think you should have a conversation with him like quite a few times. Oh, I have, yeah. Having more Chris. Yeah, but you know, just like with your ideas and like, yeah, I went up there having a few months ago, actually, and it's absolutely fantastic. Seeing how he creates. Yeah, the ink that supplies a lot of the materials, in fact, the majority of the materials that we use for the two chairs for the furniture components show the pop cars chairs. Shouts out to the ink. I was just thinking though, do they, how does that work? Do they have like designers come in and how come into their manufacturing sites and they start blending things like how do people come up with these new, you know, you know, you know, you know, you just make stuff. Yeah. I know you do. So I blend it on a card in the machine. You've got card in machine. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I blend different fibers. You've got a card in machine. Yeah. I loved it. So I worked with an amazing lady from Australia who runs the biggest upholstery school in Australia. Yeah. And she came over and said, I really need to be able to work with what we can get in Australia. Yeah. And so we looked at what fibers were locally available to her. And then how we could work with them to create solutions for her students that were petrochemical-free. How amazing. And she's gone back and she's now teaching what we spent three days creating. And so, yeah, and I went down to Cornwall to work with Polyander. Yeah. And we worked with her students as to what they could create and what would pass fire testing. And the, there are solutions out there. Yeah. You just have to look at each of the individual challenges. You know, you want bounce, you want comfort, you want soft feelings. Resilience. And then you mix to create that. Yeah. And then you've got to figure out how to, you know, Chris at Enkev, he's fixing his sheep material with a latex bind. And then you look at H. Dawson and their fixing with a needling bind. And then I did lots of innovation with rootful who she's an amazing, amazing creator. She grows root systems from grass seeds. And so we grew root systems through wool to create sheet material. And if any farmer is to listen and wishes to take that idea forward, and we got to a working prototype with a chair, but a super comfy and that works. Wow. No, I do about this. I hate delivers. This is amazing. So the binder is often the problem because many people use polyester as the binder. But as soon as they do that, they're intermixing a biological and a technical fiber. And that means that you can't then, it's not biodegradable. And ideally, you want to separate them, separate them so each can go through their own recycling. So we were focusing on the, and it was the most fascinating process. But I think we're at a stage where we want someone else to go. This is fascinating. I'd like to take it forward for you. So this is the innovation. This is what I'm talking about. This is the innovation. Yeah. And we need more innovation in the fillings market in upholstery. And most of the fillings are imported into the UK. The wool's not. There's lots of British wool that's made to need for products. Query is imported. That's Sri Lanka mostly. Horse hair is coming in from China. Yeah. But there's also German horse hair. Flax is grown a little bit mostly in Belgium, but it's really expensive. I see. is what? - Hessian's jute. - It's 90% jute, 10% oil. - Is it India? - India, I don't know. - India. - India. - Yeah. - So it's about forming partnerships with suppliers around the world. - I think it's encouraging asking our suppliers for what we want and letting them go out there and look for it. - So the answer is the demand, you know, I was called by one of the upholstery suppliers yesterday going, where do I buy this ever since your article, people are calling up asking for natural fibers, I don't know what to offer them. - So there is a demand, we want this. - Yeah. - We would like to work with healthy material. - Yeah. - I, I, I, I, 100% agree. But there is also the reality that there are the others, there are, you know, there are other people who have polyester-based fabrics, they actually exist. They're not disappearing overnight. - No, not at all. - So I know that it's technically possible to create foam that will pass the cigarette test without the addition of chemical flame at times. - And it's, and it's technically, you're saying you're suggesting or implying I'm getting this, that it's technically possible to create a polyester-based fabrics. - Yes. - Without the past, the cigarette test. - The last, the past cigarette test simply by the nature of the construction, the weave is more, much denser. - Not necessarily, many will pass just as they are. And for some, the weave might need to change. But in America, when the law changed and they got rid of the bumps and burn a test, 90% of their fabrics did not need to be changed. - This is huge. - Yeah. - It is huge. So I know that there's a real fear and nervousness. - And keep back from big, from big things as well. - And quite aggressive kickback at me, I have to say. - How are you handling all of this? - We had it notice any life dancers or security guards. - There's a security guard. - I think the therapist at the door would have a field day. - So the house been kicked back, but I think when the reality sets in and when the challenges are seen as challenges, and definite and happening and we have to adapt, we'll find that our polyester is sold as polyester. With its cigarette test, we'll find our foam is sold as foam without the chemicals. With its cigarette test. - Without the FR chemicals. And our furniture manufacturers will have to face the challenge of imports from abroad. But we are now in a position where we've got trading standards have regulated, restricted, banned very few imports. We have huge quantities of non-compliant imports. That's furniture coming in that does not comply with the 1988 regs. That is happening now. - That is speaking here. - As we're speaking, that is being monitored by some of the very biggest of our furniture and manufacturer and mattress manufacturers. It is happening already. What we hope will happen is this is a big decision for the government. I'm hoping that trading standards will now have a simplified set of fire eggs, which they will find easier to regulate. Therefore, we might clamp down on what is already happening in our non-compliant imports. Therefore, the market position of the furniture manufacturers in the UK might be slightly protected from that. - There will be a challenge from a different angle. It will be a challenge, but it's also an opportunity for them. - An opportunity to create new furniture, which hasn't got chemical flame retardants, which the more the general public become aware of this, the more they will, I hope, please decide in time. - All I want to do is just produce beautiful quality furniture that meets the relevant fire regulations, but also it's really healthy for you. You don't want to sit on something that off-gas is stuff that could damage your. I just want to create a healthy furniture. It's beautiful to look at. - Beautiful to look at and good for your indoor air. I know I have heard that there's some nervousness amongst upholstras as well. What will this do to my business? What do I say to clients who are coming in now? You can construct furniture now without the chemical flame retardants, but it has to comply with the law now. Then when the law has changed, it will be more simple to do that. You will be able to use foam and polyester. The gas em upholstery, how have you found that person for you dealing with your client base? They might come to you with a. I would love you to use this fabric, but it's got. - I won't use it. - You won't use it. You just say to them, sorry. - Not for me. None of them, well, they go. I'm quite passionate on time. - You can't be in a position you're in without me. I have used foam, as I said, about three times and I've regretted it. It makes me itchy and my fingernails hurt and my skin go itchy. - I don't want to do it. - You've got staff as well. I was going to say, I think it's an interesting way of looking at it. Hard-know if you like, but sometimes we can't afford it as opposed to. - You can't actually afford to do that. - Yeah, afford to say. I'm sorry, it's using foam or it's using this fabric, I can't do it. I think there's two things going on there. Firstly, there's what you say to your client. I sometimes mention chemicals and things in foam. But most of my clients are coming with me. Can I change the foam in this? Can you update the foam in that? They're using the words foam as well. They're wanting the actual product foam. There's that side of things. Then the other side of then suggesting to them an alternative. But then the cost of that, the cost implication of it. I think there needs to be some kind of conversation around that aspect of it. How we actually express it to our potential clients and customers. We just reset the tone of the conversation so it can't across you. Now I offer this. Now I do this. I agree. I agree. I find a lot of clients are coming to you with a price point. They are right away. They're comparing you against the other people. Definitely. It's not always easy to just say. One of the really big problems, and this is a problem that affects the smaller furniture manufacturers as well as us, is the minimum orders for natural fibers are huge. So unless we're being stocked by our live-dales, our martins, our gluvers, our suppliers, who fantastically have a van that arrives one day a week and allow us to buy sheep material. God love morons, God love morons. Shout out to our ones for many hours. We really need to be in conversation with our suppliers because the minimum orders that I've had to sign up to, to get the materials I wanted to get are huge. Even if you are a director or director of the AMUASF, getting hundreds of our pollsteries to go in on a scheme that would. Like a collective. Yes. A collective sustainable material scheme. Almost like a sub body to the actual supplier. It's almost like a scheme. Yeah, it's almost like we need a sub body to. We need to meet with each of our suppliers to say this is what we'd love to work with. Yeah. Can you go out and look for this? It's not an inexhaustible list. This is an actor must be a list of. And please please would you stock this for us? And also here's a heads up for all of the sheep that are currently stocked, which we understand you stock with the FR. We will be seeking those as the law changes, we'll be seeking those less. So don't mass order them now. Yeah, it's definitely a conversation. And I've been pulled 10 million times, different directions in the last few months. I should pull the part by horse. But those conversations do need to be had. How are you handling the fame? How are you handling the. Well, I like the good morning Britain makeup. Yeah. Yeah. I want to try that. That was a big treat. Yeah, although quite scary. Do you realise though, as time goes on, you're going to be probably doing a lot more media? Oh, I don't know. You never know, though. I hope that some stories just go for a week and then they disappear, don't they? Yeah, but this is something that's been building up for years. I feel like the Guardian has been writing about, and private eye, I mean, shout out to. George Monbue and to Gareth Stkins, who both, for one for private eye and one for the guardian, have been writing about this issue for years and years, years even before I became even aware of it. But now, just in the last two weeks, we've had two articles on Sunday times, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Best Magazine, Times Radio, a podcast. I've missed something. I'm not the independent. Yeah, so I'm hoping it will build an awareness. Sit on this. Hey, massive roll you're hugging. This fresh Hessian just arrived from Martins Upholstery's appellation. Yes, I'm emotionally attacked. Well, that explains the grin. You do love a bit of 12 hours. Don't knock it. It's the young song hero. Holds my springs in place, means up my work and smells like prop, prop, holstery. I love the smell of 12 hours in the morning. Yeah, I actually ordered from Martins last week, foam webbing a few finishing bits. It all turned up into a snowfab. That's what I love. Whether you need a tin of glue or ten meters of calico, it's all there and it's all brilliant quality. It's definitely my go-to for top ups, especially when I realise I've run out of something mid-project. Yeah, which is about every week. Exactly. Martins saved me from full-blown panic attacks more times than I'd like to admit. If you're setting up a workshop, we'll just need the basics. Martins has the lot and as a special treat for our listeners, they're offering 5% discount on all foam and upholstery sundry orders. Just check the link in the show notes below and use the code, sit on this Martins 5 for your discount. Martins appellstery supplies, solid, speedy and always got your back. See on that. Wow, thanks so much for today, that list. I've learnt a lot. Just talking at the FR, you know, I need the basics, but actually speaking to you and also comparing it to having spoken with manufacturers as well and trying to get a bigger overview of what's actually going on, I've found it really fascinating. Thank you so much. Thank you for helping me. Delafi, you've been absolutely amazing. I think this is a conversation. Hopefully we won't have to have too many times again in the future. Not that I don't want to have the thing. You know what I mean? If things go well, if the government. If enough people say yes, yes, yes, yes. And if the government actually do shift, then this could be one of the last conversations we have about this issue. Let's hope. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Ladies and gentlemen, and everyone in between, you've been listening to and watching the wonderful Delafi, Fiviston, Dilk. The lovely Vicki Grab and myself. We hope you've liked today's podcast. If you do, please like and subscribe. It means the well to us, like if you show us some support, even just a little like or a follow. It all helps us. And the bigger we get, the better the guests get, as you can see. So, yeah, thank you very much and we'll see you at the next one. Sit on this.