S2 E70: Transforming Metal Oxides into Metals: Insights from Nitesh Shah of Metalysis

Welcome to the Rare Earth Exchange's podcast, where power, politics, and the world's most coveted materials collide. Rare Earth elements power the backbone of tomorrow's most critical technologies. With China dominating global production, the U.S. and its allies must align strategically to ensure a stable future. This urgency prompted tech entrepreneurs Daniel O'Connor and Dustin Olsen to launch Rare Earth exchanges. A news and insight platform built to equip stakeholders and decision makers with the tools and intelligence needed to reduce dependency and build prosperous resilience. Let's get into it. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Rare Earth Exchange's podcast. I'm your host Dustin, joined by Daniel and today our special guest is Natesh Shah from Metalys, a UK-based company out of Rotterham, South Yorkshire. Natesh, welcome to the show. How are you doing? Thank you. I'm very well. Thank you. How are you guys doing? We're doing great and we're excited to have you on the show. So Natesh, just a little bit about your background, right? So you, with the CEO of Metalys, but you have a background as a former mergers and acquisitions and capital markets professional. You've had previous roles at Deion Capital and Alaska Metals. And with Metalys, you guys have received some funding from the European Space Agency. Is that correct? We have. We have. Yes. That's very exciting. It is exciting. We do a lot of work with the European Space Agency at the UK Space Agency. And so this came about through our other projects that we've done primarily with regulates from the moon, Martian regulates as well. So I think the sector we're really is really exciting. And effectively it's, let's call it tomorrow's world today, I think, is how we quite often describe it. Yeah, that was a great way to describe it. So let's talk really quick to start the business, kind of give people a high level overview. So you guys sit squarely in the midstream process of getting oxidizers to Metals and Alloys, correct? But Roth or Ham South Yorkshire isn't the first place you probably think of seeing a facility like this. So can you give us just an overview of the business and how it got started? Yeah, sure. So Metalys has a patent technology called FFC technology that was developed by three professors at Cambridge University here in the UK. It's about 20 something years old. My group got involved in 19 when we bought Metalys and since then we've been, obviously we had to contend with the COVID era. So obviously the first couple years were a bit of a right off to some extent. But we have then focused on effectively powder generation, metal powder generation. And our technology is on paper, relatively simple. We take a solid metal oxide, we put it in the bath of molten salt at a certain temperature, sort of 900, 1000 degrees. We pass the current through it that liberates the oxygen and it left with a metal powder. If we mix metal oxides, then we get an alloy coming out of it. So this is all in a very one step sort of shop. The only emissions we have are either carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide or if we use a different anode, then actually we don't even have those gases coming out. So it's an extremely clean process, extremely energy efficient. If you think about the oxides and metals elements, a lot of them melted 2000, 3000 degrees. We don't care about the melting temperature of the oxides and the elements themselves because all we melt is the electrolyte, which is a sodium chloride salt, sodium chloride, calcium chloride. So it's it's a, the operation as I said, at just below 1000 degrees. So it doesn't matter about the melting and boiling temperatures of the oxides at all. So it's a nice clean step. We can process about 49, 50 elements at the periodic table. So a really wide application of industries that we can service. We are now at about just over 50 employees here in Roderham and as you said, why are we here? Because this area is actually a traditionally a very mining and steel industry area. And therefore you have a lot of relevant professionals here. You have a lot of universities that churn out relevant students with metallurgists and geologists and so on. And therefore actually it makes perfect sense for a company like ours to be based in this area. So we don't have any issues with hiring staff. Yeah, you're at all. I believe that this part of Great Britain is the industrial was the industrial heartland in the 50s 60s. Is that correct? It was correct. Yes. And then obviously they're trying to revive it. And you hear about the balancing between the south and the north. So this area would be one that is a prime target for those government initiatives. That's right. You know, if we look at let's take a step back and look at the big picture. So you fit into what we call the midstream, whether it's a you know, rare elements or critical minerals, you know, there's the mining, which a lot of the media focuses on. But the real hard part is the separation and refining piece, right? And then there's the metallization piece that you're involved with. That's difficult. I mean, today, if you look at the broad outputs of the market, I would say a majority of this process today is in China. Would you agree with that? Totally. So the midstream is generally very dirty as well as expensive, very dear energy intensive. And therefore a lot of this is done in China and China dominates sort of 90% off this midstream sector. And that's been one of the challenges. And so metallis is fits in very nicely. It's it's an alternative to China. It's clean. It's very energy efficient because we operate with oxides. We're not constrained by having to buy from China. We can get our oxide feedstocks from many parts of the world like Canada, Africa, of course, Australia, Philippines. You know, there are many areas we can go to. So we're not constrained by one geographical location or one supplier. And I think that that's what gives us a supply of resilience that everybody's looking for and security. So as this market, nascent market is starting to come back to the west at what we call X China, for you all, what are the lowest hanging fruit in terms of market demand drivers that are leading your company to respond to to be honest, one of the things that we have to be very careful about as the company and as me as a CEO is not trying to do too many things at the same time. So my group has a lot of experience, for example, with tantalum. We used to own a tantalum refinery in Europe. We had some mining interest in in Rwanda as well. Now we diversed those when we bought metalis because we then realized that the potential of metalis is its technology. And as I mentioned before, the fact that it's applicable to so many different industries that to be honest, it was almost impossible for a small company like ours to focus on the mining, the beneficiation, and then the midstream refining. So we've decided that actually metalis making powders and alloys is where we need to focus. And that's really where the real need in the world is, if I'm honest, there are many mining companies, many beneficiation industries, but nothing like what we have. So I mean, today, if you look at the products on your website, there's aluminum, scandium, high entropy, alloys, titanium, and then R&D work. So it sounds at least from your website, those are sort of the focus areas of the business. As well as tantalum. And tantal, of course, tantalum. Yes, yes. And so from those, I guess, you know, to try to, you know, for even a more of a lay audience, take tantalum, like what industries, who are the buyers of those that refine metal, right? Who are the buyer? What are some examples of some industry that need this? Okay, so that's quite easy because there are, apparently, there's two or three different sectors that tantalum can be used for medical devices, which we're not incurring currently, met grade tantalum, which we're not in either. And then there's a really high-end, capacitor grade tantalum, which is a sector that we operate in. So our high-grade capacitor powders would be used to make capacitors. Capacitors go in your phones, your cars, your computers, all three's electronics have capacitors. And that sector is growing massively. So again, because of our past experience, because of some of the work that metallists have done before we bought it, that was a natural product for us to lead with as well. So one of our partners that we worked with a lot is actually an American company that was recently bought out by a far eastern company, not China. But, effectively, you know, we're working with Americans. So we have many touch points with America already and tantalum is one of those. So just to follow through on this, so tantalum would go into these capacitors. So that would be companies that are part of the supply chain for electronics or what have you. Yeah, that are, for example, our customer that buys our powder would would sell his capacitors to Apple, for example. Right. Apple, Apple, Apple, computer. So Apple would be a buyer of, effectively, our powders in a capacitor for that. That's right. And that's our premise. We're trying to help people understand that supply chain aspect to all of this. So it's much bigger than just mining or metalization or magnets or whatever other outputs. It's part of a whole reindustrialization that's happening around the world. Absolutely. And it's important to understand that all of these things are not, you know, a very niche sector that people are playing around with. It's an everyday product. It's in your TVs. It's a, as I say, it's your car. I mean, the car has so many capacitors. It's crazy. It's a computer. I have a Tesla. So imagine how many capacitors it has. Totally, totally. But let's talk about so the midstream metalization. Because again, it's a new area for a lot of people. So if we look at the process of metalization, would there be subcategories of within that ecosystem? of focus area or are most companies that I mean we see several that have emerged are they sort of all doing the same thing do you want to talk a little bit about that just educate people about how to maybe investors that are are tracking privately how companies that may one day go public how should they how should they think I think the focus a lot of the focus has been on mining off-late and America certainly has invested a lot in mining capabilities but then you find again I don't know if I'm allowed to mention companies but there's one famous company now in this field where America has invested heavily into it but effectively they were still having to send their oxides to China for processing so you can make the mining resilient but what's the point when you still have to send it to China so they they can still control it if they want to and and so what we are providing is is is that break from China if you like it's or at least an alternative if you don't want to deal with that or if you want to diversify your supply lines then you would come to somebody like us and I think the midstream it hasn't really had the same level of attention and investment and that's been the frustrating thing because our job has been now to really push our kind of technologies and beauty about metalluses is unlike other midstream players who focus on one type of product our platform is one that as I said 50 elements of the periodic table you can do a lot with that yeah we have we have it sort of continues batch processing which means we can today do one product tomorrow we can do another product and therefore we're not constrained by anything at all you know once you build a plant everybody else will have to only just make that one product we can swap depending on the customers requirements and scale up as the customer needs as well well let me raise a challenge and it's very complex you and I agree that you know the true bottleneck in all of this re you know rebuilding of supply chains is the midstream whether separation of oxides you know mineral concert to oxides or oxides to metal that's the hardest part and yet it's the the least known it's the least invested which is perplexing which I don't think we can solve that problem here but but there is a challenge I want to raise and that is in China we watch these companies very carefully they're state backed they're very sophisticated they've spent you know 30 years building a deeply integrated platforms how are we going to compete against that in a sense it's it's wrong to say how are we going to compete I think you have to understand the supply risks if you accept and and the evidence shows that at any point in time time China could use critical minerals as a weapon effectively and at any point in time they could switch off well imagine the impact on car industry for example as you've seen you know many car industries stop working it's that risk that you have to manage and therefore you don't try and compete with China on an economic basis you compete on what would happen if the taps were turned off and I think that's that's an important way off looking at this thing and we write about that Natasha I mean we agree with you we're on the same page you're preaching to the proverbial choir now I will tell you though Natasha I will tell you when you get into the OEM world when you get into the sectors downstream their supply chain ethos is still cost there's there's same procurement people it hasn't fully resonate you know how we just did a survey Dustin organized a brilliant survey where we could identify the sense of imminent downstream as to supply chain security concerns they're not there yet Natasha they still people think oh it's around the corner you know we've got lots of investment in minds in the US and you know president trumps trumps said we'll have more magnets than we know what to do with soon you understand that that that logic of hey we're going to have a security premium I'm not totally sold on that believe me we write about it and we want it to be that way but let's talk a little bit of more about that about that becoming grounded in economics of the future I think I can say two things to that one is the US government very cleverly in a sense set up floor price price to some of these commodities recently and that helps because that's that's that's saying to to mining companies you know what it's fine for you to go in mine because we'll give you a long time long term offtake contract and then you know that you're going to be able to survive I think that's one important thing but other thing I would say is actually off-late we have noticed many companies coming to us and accepting that our price is going to be higher than China's and are still willing to work with us for example couple of weeks ago we had a some representative of a listed American company came to see us from an aluminum scandium perspective and I heard from them this morning that the prices that I've indicated to them are more than acceptable to them and they want to work with us to to scale up our aluminum scandium production because they see that that's a need there is a need a real need for that and their customers are their customers are demanding now supply lines are don't include China to make sure that they they can always get their products so actually despite what you've said we've seen a change in people's attitudes and acceptance that it's not going to be Chinese prices that they have to accept but that's not to say that that's forever what they want you to do is to work towards a lower cost model going forward and I'm saying how can we help you can we supply you the feedstocks for example to reduce your costs because we have a large buying power and therefore they're becoming the whole conversation is more collaborative now which I think is the right way of going about it I agree I agree and wouldn't technology technology and process innovation also help you to deal in this new world you might be able to produce more economically in a more productive manner right absolutely absolutely so this morning's conversation was was about scaling up but also saying well at some point let's have a conversation about how we can help you to automate and that surely will reduce our costs but then the other thing that we are doing in metalluses is using AI simulation models so as we develop new products well to what extent can we put all the conditions into a computer and let it tell us what the initial starting conditions should be to make particular products of course we can't get away from developing the products themselves physically but that will save a lot of time and effort and money and therefore the cost of getting to a qualified product a from a time perspective and a cost perspective come down massively so all of that will help the whole process and therefore our costs will come down and everybody benefits which which is great can we talk a little bit about the economic impact of this change in the supply chain logic for is it central and northern England I always I think they refer to the north northern England but I think it's actually centraling both I correct roughly we we are about 200 miles from London okay so my grandmother lived in Bournemouth so I was we're on the way south of it yes yes you're right at the bottom so what's the what's the economic forecast let's say you know you're within 70% of your forecast over the next five years five years what what does metallist look like in five years in terms of number employees and revenue and what does that look like at a high level yeah I think in five years time so currently we have one what we call a gen 4 machine which is capable of producing up to about 20 tons within five years we will have either new sites with tens of these machines or more likely our customers are saying hey if we wanted you to put one of your or bank of your units next to our mining facilities would you do that and we say yes so the way I say it within five years time is that we will have some units based in the UK of course but also we will have maybe smaller units to suit our customers requirements wherever they are operating and I think from that perspective I think we will that will be a very global company as opposed to simply having a footprint in central northern England and effectively I see metallicism as being a unicorn so whilst we're just starting off from a revenue perspective now I think you could easily place a valuation offer a billion dollars billion pounds perhaps even within five years that is the spread of the different sectors that we can operate in you've got defense you've got aerospace you've got space itself as I mentioned in terms of our ability to process regolith on the moon so again you can see all the the NASA's plans of putting people on the moon well we could help with that not only can we produce oxygen from regolith moon soil but we could also make a metal compound which can be used for roads for infrastructure so there are so many different applications of our technology yeah I can easily see a billion dollar valuation on the talusis and that machine that you could could be distributed and you could license to in a decentralized way which is intriguing what's the physical specifications like how big is this this machine just so we can get a better understanding so the machine itself is actually in our setup it's in three parts if you like we have a preheat station where we put our cathode and elements of the so because we operate a cathode an anode cathode being the oxide on a tray effectively it goes into a preheat up to about 300 degrees it then goes into a reaction chamber where actual fun things happen and then there's a cool down chamber so you're talking about probably 40 meters by 30 meters sort of space so it's not it's not a big but if you want to do add a second reactor you don't need the preheat and the cool down so you can have two more reactors all serviced by those one unit so the increase to three reactors for example would add maybe 20% of that space again so it's fairly self-contained as I say very energy efficient we are making it even more energy efficient because currently we operate it in the inert atmosphere so we use argon in all of our processing because we're taking the oxygen out the last thing we want is air to ingress and reoxidize again so we use lots of argon. We are installing an argon recycling system at the moment in our production site, and that will recover 95% of our argon. So the next project will that after that is going to be solder panels with solar batteries. That removes 20, 25% of our cost as well. So again, those are the steps that we talked about the economics earlier. That's what we can do for the planet Earth, for the economics and generally to compete with other nations around the world. Yeah, I want to kind of shift gears just a little bit and talk about the geopolitical dimension, which you have written about publicly quite a bit from Venezuela, Trump's transactionalism, to the shifting tectonic plates of critical mineral politics. So as a CEO, trying to build this business in the middle of all that, how do you separate genuine strategic tailwinds against all the noise? It's not easy, worse and foremost. But I think it's important for us to focus on our core strengths and accept that a lot of the geopolitical stuff going on kind of is defense related in the sense. We have many applications for everyday stuff like capacitors I talked about. We're not going to get away from computers and TVs and so on. So if you focus on the things that matter, take advantage where you can. So again, aerospace, hypersonic, C1 or 3-product is a neobium-half-neum alloy, which goes into your hypersonic travel and so on. So again, if we focus on those things, then you can't go wrong. But don't try and chase the market. I think it is a dangerous thing to do. Focus on what you're good at, scale up as quickly as possible, understand the needs of your customers and listen to what they're saying. And the way we operate, before we launch a new product, we try and identify customers for it. And therefore, as throughout the development process, we are working with the customers in designing a product that suits them. And I think therefore, it's not a flash in the pan. It's not going to go away tomorrow. They are working on the long term, and therefore our businesses for the long term as well. And I think that's very important. However, it's also important to engage with government officials around the world to understand what they're trying to do and to see how we fit into this complex game that we're finding a subject. Great answer. I also kind of want to talk, speaking of government entities and things like that, I do want to circle back just to the investment that you took from the space of the European Space Agency. Yes. What sort of signal do you think that sends about their understanding of supply chain vulnerability? Are they taking it seriously? Or do they just need what you have? No, they're absolutely taking it seriously. And you would normally associate ISA, European Space Agency, with space, going to the moon and so on. But they understand that actually titanium alloys traditionally come from Russia, China. And so again, if you want to be self-sufficient, you need to invest in things that are needed on the earth as well. And of course, they would go into rockets and nozzles and so on. But they fully understand the supply lines as well in criticality of critical minerals. And I'll say, okay, we'll invest in, we'll help metallurgists with their project. So because our technology is batch, continuous batch processing, they've given us a million euros to say, can you make it into a continuous processing? Because we are specializing in very niche sectors at the moment. Whereas things like titanium, we're talking about thousands of tons of output a year, which we need to get to. So they are recognizing that our technology works because we've been working with these enough for many years. And I'll say, okay, look, we'll give you money, we'll be formal consortium to get your product, to your technology to continue this production. Because you know what, Europe needs it. So they fully understand, again, the complex world we live in, and are preparing for the times that when they can't get material. And actually, again, because of the Russia Ukraine issue as well, can't get titanium properly. So they're helping us to do that, which of course, then that technology would be applicable to all the other products that will be making as well. Besides the titanium. So a question for us. Definitely exciting. The question on Europe, you know, there's a lot of talk that the European Union is over regulated and sort of stagnant. It's and it's stifling the growth. Okay, that's that. I don't know if that's a what American stereotype or but we've interviewed a lot of folks in Europe. We're globally focused and it seems to be there start. It we start at least from a rare earth element perspective. We start to see some momentum there. But we have we've also seen the United States move much faster and more aggressively under President Trump. And we've given we don't agree with everything President Trump has done, but we agree on that that he deserves a lot of credit. His administration deserves a lot of credit for really internalizing the eminence of this situation. Do you see changes in Europe? First of all, is that stereotype correct about Europe? A that American stereotype that they've kind of become stagnant, slower. And I understand you're in the United Kingdom, which is a little bit, you know, separate and different. But generally in Europe, I mean, what's your take on on how it's unfolding there and from an investor's investment standpoint? Is it becoming more conducive to let's say softening regulations and what have you? The problem with Europe is it doesn't have one central federal government. Every decision has to be passed down to 27 odd entities, countries and everybody's buying has to be bought in. And that's a very slow process unfortunately. So yes, I think they begin to get it, but sadly, it's very slow. They haven't devoted enough effort and money into this sector. Again, we are seeing more and more money. And then I can see the projects that they are looking to finance and metallics has been is part of those a lot around the recycling aspect of things. So they've got horizon projects which are giving a lot of money to these things. But no, you're right. It is very slow. It's not like America who makes decisions like that. And that's one of the beauties of America, in a sense, when they decide something they act very quickly and they throw money at it because they understand the need for it as to how efficient that money is being spent. That's a different matter. But at least they're making it. Yeah, but they're making an effort very quickly. Europe is not as fast. And I think I would urge Europeans to get the act together, I think. UK is a different story altogether. Unfortunately, we have our own mess here. But I think Europe is getting it and they're waking up, but it's a very slow process. Now in the US, Natasha, you'll appreciate this. You know, you're you're a financial professional. You've been in M&A and we've been observing that that profession if run if run wild and not enough engineering to tether it to very specific focuses. And I really like what you said as a leader of this company, you're doing totally the right things you're focusing. You'll you'll almost present like an engineer, although you're an M&A person. And thank you. But do you understand what I'm saying? We have been writing that they're we believe there may be some misallocation of capital in the United States because possibly they're more finance driven projects than engineering and market driven projects. I think it's very important to focus. I think that this next wave of investment that we're observing in the United States is going to be more focused. Now as it from an investor vantage on metallysis, what does your market look like? Market size and competition? Like how many companies are competing for that same growing right now? It's a small market because it's only about 10% of metalization happens outside of China. So it's small still relatively but it's growing. The point is it's growing rapidly. So the question is what does that growing market look like? What's total available market? It's in the billions. It's not a problem. It's it's unlike some of our so H.E.A.s are a new class of alloys. Again, I can explain what H.E.A.s are if you want. But it's a whole new class and therefore that market has to be grown from nothing basically. But what you're describing is the market already exists. China is supplying into that. So all we're talking about is bringing some of that into the West and doing it let's say ourselves right from friendly countries. It's that that's much easier to ask than actually growing a new market with a new product. Understand. Understand. So I think that works. But in terms of the market size, it's literally hundreds of billions because of the fact that we can make so many different products and across so many industries. So that that spend if you look at that spend at 100% maybe it's a couple hundred billion something like that. Like look, take the rare earth market. The rare earth's element market is small. It's six billion thereabouts. It's very small because it's but it's a choke point. If you don't have it then your 30 billion dollar magnet sector is done and then your 30 billion dollar magnet sector leads to a multi trillion dollar automobile defense. So this is some of the economic challenges when it comes to things like rare earth element oxide. But that's not where you're at. You're in that middle stream which is bigger. It's a bigger band. So that's as an investor we're looking at who are the companies who are the leaders, who has new technology. And this is where your company gets interesting. I think we started tracking you all some time ago. I forget if we reached out to you or you reach out to up. But so briefly obviously retail investors don't have access to metalluses today. What's the trajectory? So you know, how much venture are you venture capital backed or do you have other? No, we have a Canadian gentleman that owns the Georgia Pateluses. Okay. Again, I can mention names if that's a property but he's been financing, all our activities to date. And so we're at a point now where I'm trying to raise external financing to increase my production capability and really try and take advantage of the current market situation that we're in. If you're any of your investors have real money and want to give it reach out to me, please do so. We're at that point. Yeah. I mean, I think it sounds like that the Canadian investor has, it sounds like an ideal situation. He or she has essentially invested early on to help de-risk this new business. And now you pretty much know what to do, how to do it. Now you just need the capital to expand and then grow. Yes. And that's the really nice inflection point that we find ourselves in at today actually. So again, we have customers ready and willing to buy our products. I need now scale to be able to supply into those sectors. It's a lovely place to be. Yes. But unfortunately, it's helping people understand it's a new from their perspective. It's a new technology. Even though it's been around 20 or years or so, it's a new technology. Well, how can you do so many different things? How can you be so good? How can you make products which are so many times better than incumbents? Yeah. It's almost too good to be true. And that's one of the challenges that we are constantly having to break the barriers down. That we are real. Come and see us. Okay, we're not a lab working in a little lab somewhere making it grams of material. We can make tens of tons of this stuff. So we have the technologies to make the products. We have the technology or the process knowledge to make the products as well. We have everything now. And that's what I did. The initial financing to really scale up makes total sense. We had an excellent roadshow, what six weeks, two months ago in Japan. Really well received. They got what we tried to do and where we are. And so we've got a few conversations, live conversations going on with some large Japanese trading houses, as they call themselves, about the tallies and how we can let's say work together bit more. We'll see what that leads to. Yeah. Yeah. Does one last question on that? I totally get and it tests what you're saying. We see it, you know, since we've launched rare earth exchanges, it's blown our mind how inaccurate much of the media is about a lot of these things. There's just as a lack of understanding generally. And especially when we get into the retail investor community, you know, there's a lot of hyperbole out there. So I think it just takes a lot of good old-fashioned education, but to the right groups, the customers, which I think you're doing the right thing. So yes. Yes. And again, because we are, we have a new way of making even the products that you can buy today, like some of the tantalum, for example, or C1 or 3. It's about going out and working with the technical people within these large companies. Mostly all of our customers are going to be listed companies or government agencies, but dealing with the technical people and making them understand that actually, how do we do it? Why do we do it? Why is it better? Or as good as? And then that feeds into the senior management. So when we start talking to senior management, there's somebody in the back office already saying, "Hey, guys, actually, I know about metallic, I know about the FFC technology. It's worth having a look at." And that's how we're approaching it. So that's right. And on your patents, how many patents do you have for this technology and when do they expire? We have about 300 patents, and each one expires at different times. But one of the things that the analysis has done, the core FFC patent is expired already. But there's lots of patents around it, which protects it as well. So that's going for another sort of 15 years or so. Okay. And so we are continuously adding to that portfolio of patents. We call that a patent ticket, a patent ticket. You know, like a. I think it like a rose bush with. Yeah, okay. Yes. Yes. That's definitely what we try and do, actually, because that protects it. But also, I mean, there's two things from our security of our technology. You've got the patents themselves, but then there's a lot of know-how. And that's not out in the public domain in any way at all. So we have some professionals here who've been working with this technology for about 15, 20 years in some cases. So they're all very excited by it. They really believe in it, but it helps us to secure what we have. Yeah. Understood. Absolutely. Natasha, you said something just a moment ago that I think would be worth calling out for people who are interested in this space is, what you guys are doing isn't at lab scale. Not in theory processing things at grams, right? I've developed it, you've scaled it, you've grown it to process it, tons, which is proof in the pudding as they say and is something that people should look at, because I think as Daniel was saying, there's a lot of hype that can go on. It can sound really great and amazing, but it's only at lab scale. It's all just in theory of what can be done, but you guys have taken theory into action. Yes. And you're doing some really great things with it. So just want to call that out, just give it a little more attention, because I think it is a really big deal with where you guys are positioned. And once we've done the ESA project in terms of designing a continuous production capability, that will change the economics, the dynamics. It will bring in titanium. It will bring in ray Earths into our sector as well. It just opens up everything. And then that's real strength then to compete with China in any of these different products. Absolutely. But Natasha, for those who are interested in being a part of what MetaList is doing, where can they find you? We've got our website, www.betalaces.com, that there's information contact us section as well. Reach out. My name is Natasha and the CEO address it to me personally if they want to, but certainly we've got our marketing and communications guy, David. Perfect. There you go. Well, Natasha, thank you so much for being on the show, sharing about your company and your time in this industry. I think it was very insightful. Thank you very much for having me and actually some really good questions there. So perfect. Thank you. Thank you, Jadjima.