S2-E7- What Judges Want- Benji Schwimmer

Speaker 1 Welcome to episode 7 Speaker 2 of what judges want this week, is a truly special episode and this guy needs no introduction. So let's get straight to it with mr. Benji Schwimmer, so, hey Benji, how's Speaker 3 it going? It's going good. Glenn German how you doing, man? Speaker 2 So, you're a big fan of the podcast to my right. Speaker 3 Dude. I've listened to all 47 episodes. Gleefully. Speaker 2 They do you know the name of the Speaker 3 podcast? Glenn qualcast. Speaker 2 So this is what we do. We speak to a different judge each week and we find out what they want when they judge now because because West Coast Swing is this crazy world of everyone wanting different things. And basically, I started this because I'd have students come to me and say well, so and so said, I didn't do enough triples. So and so said, I lifted up my left shoulder too much and I would I just got bored of it. So I wanted to start listening. And, and speaking to different Judges. Speaker 3 I think it's awesome and those examples are just awful. She's just for giving that kind of feedback. Speaker 2 Yeah. And I'm always amazed at quite how free some judges and some professionals. Give this feedback, not not free as in money-wise, but how freely they will go. Oh, well, let me watch your video and then I get someone come up to me as a student and say, well, so, and so, and I go with a even at the competition, but they've kind of gone round and offered feedback to people on a Sunday night. Speaker 3 Yeah, there's a there's some poachers out there. I feel like like it's on a judge's responsibility to go up to people unless you have a rapport with them, or unless there's some sort of communication there, like, like in the ballroom world, you would never have that yellow. Like, in the figure skating world, you never have that. And so the different worlds that I've navigated where I've judged like, that's it's and that's the hard part, right? That's the gift, and the curse of the swing dance world, it's that we're very communal. And so, I think that those lines are They're gray at best often but I do feel like there's a difference between a compliment in the constructive comments and some fellow judges just don't know the difference or they're seeking private lessons and they're trying to entrap our students. They're trying to entrap like just again willing dancers that just want to get better. And they think that by taking this lesson, I will be placed better. And I don't buy into that, or I don't really subscribe into that kind of mentality. I think it's sad. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes them feel better, maybe for a short amount of time. I don't know. Okay. So this is what we normally do so and but you can take it anywhere you want. So we normally go up through the levels. I mean, you know, this from listening to all of them Speaker 3 but some Speaker 2 judges have said, hey you know what, I don't necessarily judge every division separately differently with different criteria and they just say, look I look for this. So so like where do you want to start drawing a start a new comer novice, or do you want to just talk about? What you look for in West Speaker 3 Coast Swing? I mean, to me, I don't think like, there's a very strict set of criteria between novice, intermediate, Advanced, all starts Champions, or Legends whatever you if you were talking about the new upcoming hopeful division. But, you know, for me, Glenn, I think I think the biggest issue that we have sometimes is that we can set these very strict parameters. But what happens like just for like you and I for people that travel quite a bit of different events. It's like each region. Each country has like Kind of a median average of skill set for intermediate. You like an intermediate in Taiwan is an not an intermediate in Boston. Say, and so I think it's unfair to like have these very fixed set standards. Like I think at the judge is not able to be present and to like compare and contrast the actual present company that's on the dance floor at that time, then that could be potentially problematic. Now, I guess, I guess the only time that you would maybe counter That is if there were multiple sheets and you're seeing that first heat for the first time but again there's multiple bodies on the floor and I think it's pretty easy to have parity and you know simple compare and contrast amongst the field. So for me I personally don't subscribe to, I have to have a certain amount of criteria / Division. I just think that that critical eye within those sets of skills becomes more and more nuanced as the skill sets get stronger. Obviously, with newcomer we're looking for like the ability to stay on time, you know. I think that that's interesting but then you know I compare timing in a state of like integral time being critical timing and then like fundamental timing or even functional timing, talk Speaker 2 to me about those things. Speaker 3 Well, I would have to charge you for a private lesson but Speaker 2 then Mo Speaker 3 ready, right? Right, right. But in truth, I just think that like, you know, starting on one leading, on one engaging. On one having those simple set things like not leading on a on an even beat, I think that that's really important, right? And yet like all the way up to Champions and in some people's like classic routines, even I'm seeing them engage in leading on a six or leading on a two because the trying to accelerate but the mathematics are all wrong. So you know, I think with regards to timing and Charlotte bought said it quite a bit, you know, like the fact that like, you know, timing like On time is one thing just like stepping on a beat, but being able to have like critical timing, meaning, that if the intermediary stuff, the attack moments, like making sure your at that enjoy that beep at, not lingering beyond that. I think that's really important and it was swing Rhythm everything's in 16th notes. Anyways, so you know, there is some flexibility for us but it's a constant issue where you're constantly barely hanging on. Like, if I can give any advice to any students or any competitor from any division, like, if I have to like, Bite my teeth really hard hoping that you hit that beats, you might be on that verge of not being critically on time and and I think that just in general, that's that's an important factor like when it comes to newcomer dancers all the way to the upper echelon of competitors currently. Speaker 2 Yeah so you said something just going back a bit. You said something about Legends is this. I don't know about this, can you is that a new potential division? Speaker 3 Yeah. It's something that we're trying to pitch right now just because the Fnc from All-Stars coming into Champions and then to break into like a final in Champions right now at some of the larger events. It's quite difficult and it might take some time. But like for instance I just had an event at moderate swingfest where we literally had like a Legends Invitational and that kind of bypassed certain dancers that potentially didn't want to compete with an All-Star Champions blend. And what was really nice is like, you had kind of a different tone for the Legends division for people that have been competing. Eating for so long that have like like a theoretically like sell their points on Amazon Marketplace if they wanted to, you know, and, and where it doesn't matter anymore, like the points and accumulating those things. And I think that they're the dance is growing so much that we should be able to have probably like another division or two. And that's just indicative of like our great community and its growth and its passion for competition. And in particular, it's just like to applaud our local teachers like the teachers that actually like Their communities to like understand and continue to go to dance events and earn those points. I think it's it's good. I think that that it's going to be an important factor I think for us in the future. So the Legends division is a way to get the Marion. Nunez is the Charlotte Bots and then like any of us that end up like aging out or feeling like maybe physically, we can't handle it with like a nineteen-year-old All-Star, but we still want to be able to go and show some skills that maybe, maybe the audience can appreciate the new Once instead of like the wham bam and I love that opportunity to have that because I think it sets a different kind of Precedence for what like the Evergreen effect is of West Coast Swing as opposed to like just the shiny 32nd Instagram Tick-Tock clips that I think some of the younger dancers in the newer dancers are seeking right now. Speaker 2 Yeah. I straightaway think of someone like John Festa, like I would Speaker 3 just write what Speaker 2 to see him in a in a jack-and-jill like that. Speaker 3 Absolutely. Yeah. I think just seeing just seeing a Even Mark marine and and having like Charlotte's and Marianne and Barry and like people that probably even Windows not competing a lot in Jack and Jill's right now, like, having having these people. But then again, like there are some of us that I know that are starting to have like anxiety going into a Champions division because I think for some Champions that are older that don't compete as often or not are not are doing or not doing routines anymore. A lot of them are feeling like because I'm not doing a showcase or a classic good team. Like are some of these These newer Dancers, just going to start edging me out, because they're being seen more than I am. Yeah. And I can't tell you like, at the open, like, the Jack and Jill that we had, which was awesome. Like, I'm so glad that the Jack and Jill's were back. It's been long since necessary and needed, but, you know, just kind of seemed to people who made that short, that short final. And those that didn't like, there are legends that didn't make the cut. And, you know, and I think for that particular group of people, it would be nice to maybe have a separate space for I feel very comfortable and to get there and you know, it's just par for the course. The dance is growing, its evolving and I think we need to be able to adapt to that. It's not like we started west coast swing with the strictly swing Division and leveled Jack and Jill's we those things didn't exist, they evolved over time. So I think it's important to recognize we probably need to re rethink the shape of that wheel a little bit. Speaker 2 Yeah, interested. Okay. So let's jump back to to judging and I'll think about About some questions. I get a lot about whether it's weighted connection. You look for whether you go on to a dance floor as a judge thinking about how much weight you can see in the connection, how much you know what you look for in an anchor? Can you go through some of that if there's any specifics and I will send you some money for a private lesson? Speaker 3 No. I think in general, I think people need to Showcase a sense of connection, you know. And I think that even goes for sometimes I've heard, I've heard you know what? Bruce here in there from people that you work with that. Oh, so-and-so teacher or judge told me that in prelims, I need to be lighter and in finals. Any to show trust because the time being I'm being judged separately in a jack-and-jill for example, right? And again I don't know if it's this podcast seeing. I mean I've heard every episode but I don't know if this podcast is specifically related towards just the improvisational leading and following or if we're also talking routines because I think that that would be slightly different. Speaker 2 Yeah we're Planning or I'm planning. We like as a big production company. I'm setting a cupboard doing this at the moment but no to do a routine division, one as well. So this is purely for our lead, follow a strict closure and jewels and then we'll talk about some spotlights tougher in a bit. Speaker 3 Yeah. I think for like prelims in particular, I think there's there's this sense of like it tends to be a little bit more self. Gratifying for a lot of people like, people are out there to make that cut. And in particular, for followers, it tends to be A bit more even sometimes a lot more competitive just as indicative as to how many leaders have to repeat in a prelim to help get a chance for every follower to dance. Right? So for me seeing that I want to see an element of trust between partners, whether it's in a prelim or a final because that's indicative of seeing people that are able to adapt with others. So for me, having light moments and heavier moments, waited moments, natural anchors, anchor Oops, traveling anchors floating anchors. I think posts compressed posts, like all these different actions that I like to teach and talk about in terms of like their specificity and should under the umbrella term of anchor or leverage like to me, all of those factors come into play and I don't think you have to have a certain one, or uniquely only one in order to be judged, fairly, I think being able to make judicious choices whether you're leading or following and be adaptive, with one, another is the most important part. However, if See recovering triple steps at the end of a pattern because you're needing to reconnect, and that's becoming like a chronic habit. I have, I take issue with that and that tells me that you're not able to adapt and recover with your dance partner. Doesn't matter what level you might be in. But like, at some point, we need to go back to the basics and understanding that a seven and eight or a five and six more often than not was to be danced, not to be salvific. And I find that to be a big problem. All the The way up to Champions dancers. And sure there's moments where like we need to be judicious like something was chaotic, simplify it to a little traveling anchor, step back and reset regroup. But I'm talking about those moments where maybe that wasn't really necessary and yet we're still triple stepping without any stylistic Integrity or any musicality whatsoever. Any reconnect any visuals with one another any you Rhythm changes or musical notes that are tweaked and adjusted contingent to where you're dancing in the music? Those things to me, tend to make the be competitor. Look, stale disengaged, not present, not within the flow of the dance, which to me, I think no matter how we want a verb, it like verbalize it. I think all Westies want to be part of that flow. They want to be swinging in and out of these multiple Transitions. And I just I find it too many people right now, are playing it, way to say that, not trusting one another and thus, we're losing a lot of like, communicative nuances with Another in prelims, and of course there's nerves, you know, like it's going to be obvious, but like, I think the good thing is that we're all being judged at the same curve. So that whatever nerves one person has like, there's no difference in their variables compared to somebody else in that proven. So if I can suggest anything like, hang back and Trust like hang back, you know, creep hitch, be able to be stable on your own weight more often than not because there's a difference between being heavy and movable and unstable and leveraged but stable and ready to adapt and really to We're ready to lead and I think that that's where people I think that that's where I like to draw that line with most and it's something that I would like to see more often than not on the dance floor because it makes this moving differently. It lightens our feet, it helps us be able to play in that open triple at the end of the slot in the beginning of the slot. Not just in the middle. Yeah, I think that that's really important. Speaker 2 That's cool. And then another question I get a lot is about legs, both leaders and followers, whether it's straight legs, whether you want to see follow it, whether you care. Are about followers. Walking on straight legs. Leaders coming back. You know, what's your view on that? Do you have a opinion before you see someone dance, what you're expecting. Speaker 3 I've been simple rule of thumb. I don't care if you use soft knees or extended needs, that's kind of how I like to talk about it because there's, it's really pretty much impossible to walk with perfectly straight, legs backwards or forwards. It doesn't make any sense to me. So to me it's more important that we always show. I always say this, this phrase like swing To the opposition. So if we can showcase the sense of like, let's say you want to dance and with softer knees, meaning you're more bent in general that's totally fine. But / pattern let me know that that's a stylistic choice. By showing me the opposite. With what I see both in routine strictly is Jack and Jill's is a lot of leaders in particular, tend to dance with either lockneys, which shows me that they're nervous or more often than not, they're dancing and slightly athletic stance and that bugs the hell out of me. Because this dance Ultimately in its Origins was a finesse stance, right? It wasn't just athletic stance. You know, we dressed our nicest. We were trying to add elements of like classical dancing back in the 1950s 60s and we coupled that with like stylistic changes with music and evolution and being able to be ready. So I understand like a bit be here and there's great. I also think like like constant straight legs, makes you look Just without weight and and probably way too independent and maybe a little a little cold. So I think being able to kind of feel the soul and being you dishes about that, it's important. But I want to save this to a lot of it has to do with where you're at in relationship to your partner. Like, if my belly buttons, facing my dance partner, my knees are bent, and I'm in a state of compression with them. That's way too much like you should turn your damn hips away. So my, my, my thought, a, my advice for anybody listening to this, which I'm starting to think. It's just you and you're lying about having a podcast question. But but if I was still like breakdown anybody's dancing directly, like you can theoretically do anything you. Want cosmetically in this dance, with the exception of moving both arms, because we have to be connected at some point with one another. But outside of that connectivity, you stylistically with a free appendage in any of your legs. And hips, you could do almost anything that you want positionally speaking. That you just have to be judicious about your pitch and your rotation. Within that pitch. And that's why I like as myself would have one of the things that I I trained very hard at every day on this little dance floor, wherever I'm at, like I trained to hit awkward and difficult positions and then I ask myself, can I still be leveraged in a state of compression or tension? And what I found is space plus rotation equals freedom in this dance and so some of us want to bend our knees because we're feeling it in the music, but if you're facing your partner directly you look like a goalie. You don't look like A denser. But if you turn your hips away from them and then those knees looks like you're swinging out. And so I think just being judicious about those choices, is more important for when it comes to straight legs and bent knees. And honestly, if you're walking into a jack-and-jill thinking about straight, legs are bent knees. You're probably forgetting the most important aspect of this dance and that is to be kinetically connected to your dance partner, and musically connected to the music. So I think if you have to think about that, you're juggling way too many chainsaws people and you need to Train that beforehand. Like you should not be thinking about that on the floor, but maybe prior to, Speaker 2 yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So we get a lot of questions and this is probably moving on more two spotlights about Flash and trash. You obviously know the term like it's getting rewarded in Champions in all-stars. So if you're judging an All-Star division or even a Champions division, tell me about what you're looking for in a perfect spot light and then what would you say about that terminology? You what? I'm seeing it rewarded. I'm seeing the Flash and trash rewarded. Talk to me about that. Speaker 3 Well, not, if I'm judging. Yeah. So no, it's not that. I don't that, I don't want Flash and trash but like, I think sometimes were rewarded for barely surviving things like people like oh my God, they almost ate shit. Oh my gosh, they pull the rabbit out of their ass. Yeah but they're like their postures sucked. You know, their legs were turned in, they were arming and pulling bisexual. We infect orally with one another. So I think there's a there's a balance to all things again swinging to the opposition so you can keep it fundamental. I think what's really great is there's a space in this dance where you can have like a winning viral Spotlight for example and not do any weight supports and like for example, like I'd had in my career, I've had recently even like in recent years like post pandemic, for example, like I've had winning Jack and Jill's where there wasn't one single weights It. But I've also had winning Jack and Jill's. We're like the loudest crowd response were from wait supports or one-footed spins or as you say flash trash. But I think Flash doesn't necessarily mean that it's trash. You know what I mean? Like, I think that like tricks and trickery were integral to swing all forms of Swing since the beginning. So being able to have something like that is great, especially if it comes from a Jack and Jill like where I don't like a lot of Flash and trash as well. There's a strictly swing because to me, you know, if something looks like it was prepackaged or pre-planned, you should be disqualified. And there was a time where, like, if you saw that well, like verbal like something, let's do this little thing and you see it out of the corner of their mouths. Like we would, I would, I would not even clap for you. I wouldn't even stand up because I think you're missing be idea of a strictly swing and what that actually represents now. If we dance with each other for many years, it's really easy to have certain callbacks right? Just things that you've done in the past like haphazardly or if you have a former routine partner like you might be able to pull something out with Emily or you know Kelis or somebody that you and I danced with like that. That yeah we can call back on but you know, but if it's pre-planned, I think you're literally going against all that our community holds dear. Yeah. So I think there's a finite line there with regards to like balancing it all out. Like if you don't have the quality Movement. That's a problem. Like I don't care how cool your tricks were but that needs to change immediately. It needs to change yesterday. And and I think that's a me, is the problem is that right now? We're rewarding people with crazy moves but their posture sucks, their connection sucks. Like that's great. They were hitting phrases and I like the fact that we're Musical, and if you can do something Dynamic, risky, tricky, and it's Musical, and it has great effect on amazing, but If the meat of the sandwich is not of high quality, if the ingredients within the containment of the phrase are not good. Then that's a 50% for me, like, 50% in any great. I know that you're not from our beautiful country, but like, that's an F in school. You get, you get a 50%, you failed like if I did 50% of a routine, that's a minute and a half. I'm disqualified in classic or showcase, right? So if the quality isn't there, that's a problem. However, is I know that there are Judges and glad I'm going to raise this to you. Like there are some judges that say well they individually made the final. So, quality of movement of the injured, individual swing dancer is now out the door. It is, can they make a show out of it? And there are some event directors that say this, there are some Chief Judges that preach this and a lot of the times we fall victim as dancers, like, as Champions that set. This example all the time we fall victim because I've heard this before we go out. Out in the Champions, Jack and Jill or a strictly like make it a show. Yeah. If they pick music that is Comical if they pick music that like baby-making music. Well, then this probably going to be a lot of extra added Showmanship and flare. And so I don't know if we need to start being a little bit more selective with our music choices. Like having a technical song, Vice on artistic song. Maybe there's something in that for the future. We're having a technical versus an artistic division. Yeah. That'd be kind of cool to, you know, but I think right now the problem is is that we're seeking that that dopamine. Injection. And if I, you know, Speaker 4 if you want to pause but my my headphones just stopped. Can you still hear me? Speaker 2 Yeah I can. Speaker 4 Okay. All right. Sorry man. Yeah so you know ultimately speaking I my biggest suggestion for competitors is to find out happy balance like one thing that I always talk, I was always trained by my parents. It's like if you're going to do something crazy like make sure you ate your vegetables before. Before you can have that dessert and I find that to be integral and I also find it to be relatively swing like swinging from one concept to another in its opposition. So, if you are going to trick it out, like make sure you find that balance and Speaker 3 any level, by the Speaker 4 way, you know, I think the problem is, is like up-and-coming competitors, and intermediate Jack and Jill's Advanced, Jack and Jill people. They feel like they have to have these really complex difficult patterns and it's like, you don't even, you're not even rolling. Fee. Like your flat-footed. You haven't even settled once in a minute and 15 seconds. I don't care if you can do a duck under, do what will it support? Yeah, I don't, or if you're a follower, like, I'd turn me, well, learn what pasta is before you try and, you know, pigeon foot your toe and your working leg. So like, there's there's elements there. I think we're kind of biting off more than we can chew sometimes. And I even say that for Champions level dancers, like there's some people that maybe they should sit that. Move out or sit back concept out. But on the flip side, I think, at the end of the day, what ultimately normally is rewarded is where they find that element of excitement risk, communication, trust musicality that usually is, what ends up cranking, that, that top spot, right? And so, that's good. You know, what I like is when you see those people that do take those risks and maybe they fail, and they're out of The money, you know, like high risk, High reward. And I would rather see that than like, oh, they had one big disaster, but wow is really fun. Let's give him second and third. I feel like that is kind of a reward that we should not be seeing more often, than not, sorry for the verbal diarrhea. But you know, Speaker 2 it's great, it's funny. Because obviously I sit here and I don't try and fix a, oh, I agree. Or I disagree with a lot, but one thing that's come up a lot throughout the series both series, as you would know, is people say Well, when it gets It's too advanced All-Star. You just assume these are good dancers now so we judge other stuff and I'm like and I sit here and I think I've never done that. I've never assumed. Like, in fact, I judge slightly harsher when I'm judging all stars because I'm like I'm annoyed now that you're pissing me off with technique like, you know, it's it. I don't assume that suddenly these dancers are going to connect to the way I want them to connect. Its that's been an interesting repetitive thing with a few judges. Let Speaker 4 me, let me add to that then. Yeah, like one 100% but I think it's important. Also to even just mention, like, even if I'm judging Champions, right, like, I don't care how many opens You've Won. I don't care what you have. Is it right Speaker 2 about it. Speaker 4 But with regards to certain champions I don't give a shit. How many times you've won a classic or a showcase routine that doesn't necessarily qualify you to make a final and and let alone to be rewarded and and in the inverse of that to, like, if you have a bad dance, you have a bad dance. But the one thing that I would encourage anybody that wants to either one do this as a profession, whether it's in the future or to continue to have it or somebody that's just a lifer. If you're a lifer Westie in the In swing world and you just want to do this for the rest of your life at some capacity. What I suggest is like get off that horse of needing that dopamine response and like rewarding yourself only with the big stuff like being able to like show quality of feet, and legs, and communication, and understanding the difference between a hitch. In a natural, delayed one, for example, and bleeding through one, or pulsing one. Like all these finite new wants details that we pick up as the years go by like learn to be a student. Game the like as you said like the higher up, you get you should be taking more onus of that. I think the problem is that systemically. We've been like I think a lot of people like after they leave or they graduate for example from like advance or like finally I'm like in a pro category and it's to me that's the I've heard like other Pro Se will like I've earned the right to be flat footed and it Champions Jack and Jill and I'm like you've earned the right to not final then yeah. It is far as I'm concerned. And so like, I feel this pressure. Every time I do a prelim to make sure that like, I give some good stuff that I know that my judges saw me, then maybe that last song, like if somebody's playing around in the audience is going crazy. It is what it is and you have a little bit of fleece fun moments. But like I personally somebody who, you know, I've been doing Champions finals for almost 20 years now her actually longer holy crap for 22 years now, something like that. And you know for me It's, I always want to show that iron it that I deserve it. Not, I don't want to sit there on my Laurels and I don't want to have this sense of privilege. If anything, every time I get up there and I dance in a prelim or a final, I feel like the pressure is on to either live up to a reputation or to alter it in a positive way, in a thoughtful way and even more. So recently post pandemic, I've also thought deeply about what is the example that I really want to set Like what do I want people to see? And if I could suggest anybody all competitors, right now, we also need to start thinking about the feedback that we give people, right? So it's important for me, that we start applauding those nuanced moments that we all covet. Because I think a lot of people in hindsight, those screening at the moment where we pull, rabbits out of our butts. But on the flip side, like I think it's important to, you know, that stuff that you look at it. You start copying subconsciously from a dancer that you might admire or like that delayed one, or that, that Gathering of the Fedor that simple free arm that you're doing. And you know, you're emulating, may be a pro or a legend of this dance like start applauding those moments in a weenies being able to do that. And as even as competitors like in the dais if we're sitting there like in a spotlight like we do, start just applauding those good moments. I think the hard part Glen and I'm sure you can counter this and correct me if I'm wrong to want to put words in your mouth, but like when you're watching a final sometimes we're like just being very analytical. Yeah. Like your we're not just being cheerleaders but rather like, you know, That's what we all stand up at the end. Like this. As far as I'm concerned, I'm watching, like, I'm observing the mechanism and an observing, the ingredients. And what what skill sets are, they actually using, what are they emitting? You know, what's happening? Are they connected? Are they not connected? What are they music? Be telling. And, and then there afterwards, I'll stand up and be a cheerleader. But sometimes like, I want to see that good stuff. I want to see that buoy and like, I don't know about you, but like I get off on when I hear my Deus react to something that I do when I hear that. Ah, what I hear, that's what I want. I don't care about like the or how, like, it's funny to laugh and I think those are all positive things but they're not something that give me that dopamine high right now and maybe that just ages me. I don't know, but I do think that there's a space for any level of dancer where that new ones is important. And you look at even a lot of dance right now, like, in general outside of swing. And I feel like we're Kind of circling back to his face where it's like we've seen all the physical limitations of like the human body and what it can do. We've all witnessed that on Instagram Tick, Tock, YouTube, Etc. So what are those simple things that we're missing and overlooking and and I think those nuances need to be made to be Revisited with some people in our community. And for those of you that are growing, remember that like you don't need to just ask for those big things. They will come. And can I just say one final thing? I know I've talked a lot and I'm sorry, man. Like it If you want to learn how to do those big things, you could either one copy stuff from YouTube pretty easily but I suggest like it, you want to experience the bigness. You want to experience those, those massive moments, a lot of those things come naturally for some of the older Champions and all started answers because they've learned those skills from doing routines and there's not enough Jack and Jill errs and strictly swingers that have crossed over and done routines. And until you've done it like you realize like the world opens up to You in a very different way. And we're used to feeling spaced, and we're used to Floor Craft in and being present in the music and being adaptive with our partners, when something is off. And so, if I can suggest anything, if you want to have like that projected effect, and not look like a fish out of water, start doing routines whether it's a formation team, whether it's the proem or whatever, but you should really start getting into like you being a couple with it on the floor. Or having that onus and really learning fresh choreography that nobody else is doing and go out there and do it. And then then focus in the private, coaching's on those nuances. Those skill sets of the dance so that you can apply that in your lead and follow aspect of Jack. And Jill's that to me is just, it's a very overlooked aspect and I'm hearing almost this pedantic, talk about routines right now and that, like, I don't think people realize how much these these two sides of our dance community. Dr. Very self-serving like they help each other and we're emitting all of that right now. And, and, and I think it we would be remiss to not promote the aspect and the influence that routines give to our spotlights in particular. Speaker 2 Yeah, I agree that the students I've had to have done Pro-Am routines with me all Rising Star routines without the students. I see the Improvement in so many aspects as you say the Showmanship. They just the repetition of doing these moves over and Over again and the ability to perfect it. Yeah, dude, it's been awesome to talk to. You is so funny, just really quick. So this year, my goal was to stop trying to knock Jack and Jill's out the park chop. Stop trying to go in there with the mindset, exact you've just like spoken to me and it's so funny. I've done like, a couple of Jack and Jill's, this year, the first one I was so proud of myself. I'm like, yes, I don't. I was, I was in it second one, the whole thing went to I like because it might performance background. Is I have this urge to Show off, you know, like this. And it's like I always joke with Susan, like I used to say, to followers when I got them in a Jack and Jill, hey, I'm just gonna be really chilled and that was me trying to tell myself, the music would come on. I'd be doing Tall claps as big as I can kick them in the face. You seconds Speaker 4 later, you know, Speaker 2 it's like, you just summed it up and it was really inspired me. It's like really? I just that's, that's what I love about swing and that's what it's just good to hear you say, it is awesome. Speaker 4 I remember I was at Jack and Jill around. And I think back in twenty eighteen or Twenty Years 2019. It was probably five in the morning and I saw Carly de Rivoli, you know, in his 80s, social dancing with like a hottie. And I, you can tell where that was going, like he was just pouring on and he did this little thing with his foot. Like I was just watching him and I'm like I'm going to see what he's doing at 5 a.m. at 80 years old. I need this little twist on the outside edge of his right leg on a five and six. And I'm like, that was I Gaz MC? Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's It's us setting that tone. So I'm happy that that's kind of your mental space right now because again, yeah, hitting something out of the park. Doesn't have to be loud. You know, like every time I got in trouble with my parents when they whisper that, I knew that I was in deep shit. Yeah, you know, Benjamin Daniel and so disappointed, like that hurts, my soul, not bad, your men that thing like whatever. You know, I knew that I could probably skate out of that with Mom and Dad. I think that that's just an important factor and there's a balance to it. Also like if you're only doing fundamentals then you're probably not. Exciting enough, but there is a balance to it all. And you know, sometimes to just if I can give like a last just bit of advice to anybody that's interested in, you know, understanding that is just just remember, the, the variables that we have in these these lead and follow circumstances. Like, not only are we dancing with strangers more often than not in foreign spaces, half the time we haven't slept half the time we haven't eaten properly or we're not hydrated. You know, were different. Zones, different people wearing clothes that we normally don't wear lights in our face and people with clipboards like there's so many variables let alone not knowing the frickin music or how fast the floor is or what shoes you're wearing or what you had for breakfast. So just know that like you can only control this as much. Like there's there's there's an extensive just releasing that control and what I what I suggest that everybody does is realize that there's a lot of variables and try and focus your training. Raining in removing the variables that you can control. And I think that that's a big problem. Is that, like you said, we seek these dopamine moments, and that's fine, but I think we also need to start training ourselves to find rewards in other aspects. And again, if you can have a routine life and then something else, I think that that helps a lot. Yeah. And and just know to like I've also cured this sometimes look like I walked up the floor and I've had this many times you walk on the floor. Like I don't think I did very good or I don't remember what I did. Um and then you win and you're like what or vice versa or you see the video? Not like. Wow. That was a lot better than it felt like there are moments that that happens and the inverse. Like you walk off that dance thinking like that was a million dollars like 11 Place. Yeah. Right like it. And so often with all of us and it's just so many variables but remember like the rule like you have a dance partner, there's you and there's a music and I think each of us is kind of fighting for the lead vocal, like each of us instinctively is the Beyonce. And and I Think it's important, just to remember, like, if you can finish a dance breaking through that 33 percent of what you desired from it. I think that's a win. Yeah. You know, 43% of the music 30% of your partner in you, if you and your partner can kind of, then diagram a little bit with one another and with the music. So you can break through that 30 E3, a third of like your deepest desires and satiated swing this. If the third of your dopamine is kicked in, if you have positive Back a third of what you were hoping and dreaming for that's a win, whatever. Come what bay in the river and the results are the responses from people and then also, like, be careful of the feedback that you get from people. There's a time and a place to ask judges. Remember judges sometimes we'll talk about the easiest symptom that may fix, you know, like oh your arm was bad. So that's the reason why I put you under so and so there's probably a lot more to it and don't just think it's that simple and don't let your ego. Think that it's only because of one simple thing that you Didn't make a final or that you didn't win a competition. Sadly, most of our teachers and judges of the world, I don't think they're experienced enough to know the difference between symptoms and causes. I sincerely, believe that. And this is coming from somebody who's been doing this for, you know, over three decades now and even now, like, just just in recent years, I'm starting to see more of that, in when I'm analyzing and breaking down other people's dancing. So, you know, take it with a grain of salt. Take the information, Nation move on. Remove your variables and anything above 33 percent is the win. Yeah. Not Speaker 2 only wanted you to just hang out, then that would've been so good just by just closed. Yeah, Beauty here. Dude, I cannot thank you for your time. As I say, I messaged you about this yesterday. You're like I'm in, I really appreciate it. People are going to love this this and thank you so much for all of that knowledge. Speaker 4 Thanks man. Thanks for doing this for our community as long as, you know, as long as people have a desire to hear my opinion, I love to share it. So thanks for creating that platform, man. And and also thank you for being somebody who's carried the tradition of routine excellence. And I just want to applaud you for for being our current, you know, world champion. Like that's that's a responsibility to put on her shoulders in the fact that you're still thinking about your social dance and not resting on your laurels that's exemplary and I I'm happy to know that you, you, you take that seriously. I mean I wish that you were in a suit at at the award show at the Uso by the pair of jeans and a sweater. But you know this is for another podcast. There's always next year Speaker 2 dude. Yeah. Right on that note. I'm Speaker 4 out. Yeah, please. Dude, Speaker 1 what George is want. Once again a huge. Thank you to Benji and all of our guests. That was a phenomenal chat Speaker 2 with him. I hope you I enjoyed it as much as I did. Share it with everyone. Let's get everyone listening to this podcast, one more episode next week.