S2:E7 Be Curious & Find Your Superpower with B. Pagels-Minor

[Music] Hey everybody, welcome to Defy Convention. I'm Emily Lonegro, founder and owner of Lime Red. This podcast features our friends and clients who break boundaries, challenge the status quo, take risks and make big change. Lime Red is a 16 year old design agency, that's a B Corp, and has always been committed to social justice and impact since day one. This podcast is an incarnation of our BC, that's before coronavirus, in-person series dedicated to the same ideas of breaking boundaries and defying convention. Recently when we talked to people about what they wanted in a podcast series, everyone said, "We want to talk about mental health, boundaries, justice, and momentum." These ideas matter, no matter who you are, and we need to talk about them right now. Let's get started. [Music] Hey everybody, and welcome to Defy Convention. We are so excited to go all the way to California, virtually today, from Chicago, to interview B Pagels Minor, and I'll read your bio really quickly. B loves product development and improving the processes of developing successful products. Amen to that. B has worked with smaller than 50 employees and large, large, large technology companies like with more than 100,000 people to increase product adoption, improve product experience and design, and evolve the product vision. He is also a thought leader on product and culture development within technology companies, which is what we need dearly. They are passionate about creating a culture of accountability and sustainable processes that allow teams to just do the work well. And that is exactly what we need, especially in technology. I'm so excited to have you here and meet you in person, sort of, Zumi. Thanks for coming. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, so are you consulting right now? Are you employed somewhere? I mean, this seems like something that everybody wants right now. Yeah, no, I'm actually, so I am a product person at a very large media technology company. In fact, many of you use that company's services every single solitary day. I appreciate it because my stock goes up when you use my service. But I do that primarily. I do some consulting on the sides, for instance, everyone's in a while. The good thing about my career is how it's evolved is everyone's in a while someone will come to me and the problem that they ask me that they ask me to help with is so compelling that I can't pick it up and say, you know, I'll chip in there because it's something interesting. But I do think that it's important as you kind of grow in your practice of work that you become more selective, right? Because it's this opportunity to ensure that you are supercharging the right people's ability to do for it, right? You know, there's a big difference between like my wife and I talk about this all the time where, you know, companies will kind of reach out to us and ask like these questions and be like, you know, we're willing to pay you all this different type of money. And then you do a deep dive into the company. It's like, oh my god, you're so unethical, right? Or your product, your product doesn't really solve anything of significance. It's not really helpful to the world. And so, you know, with the fact that bandwidth is limited, no matter who you are, that you're putting the right efforts into the right things. So you're totally cool. I mean, I would say no to that in five seconds. So I'm so glad that you are too. Like, sometimes no amount of money is enough money to work with somebody who's so unethical. I mean, most of the time, all the time. Exactly. Well, and it's also just like, not only like, isn't that worth the money, but I also would actually have to be in your presence. It's like, I could just take your money and not be in your presence and donate to something that's better. But, you know, if I actually have to be around you, that's probably not something I'm going to do. Thank you. Right. And then you wonder, why are they doing this at all? You know, why? Well, I guess to make more money. And that's usually what everybody's for. I mean, we're a B-Corp. I interview a lot of B-Corp's in this podcast just because that's a lot of my world. So I feel like sometimes we just don't even have to have those conversations about why we're in the game. Because most of us are here for like a community benefit or an environmental benefit. So you forget that like all their company, you just so kind of you know, everybody's in it for different reasons, but. Yes. Well, I just in it for the wrong ones. Well, and I think that's a difficulty about being in Silicon Valley. So obviously, I before I moved to the Bay Area, I was in Chicago for 12 years. Right. So Chicago has a bias when you think about 1871 and all those different like organizations. And it's almost like equally split between people who are trying to solve like really complex world problems and then other organizations are just trying to, you know, build solutions that solve problems that already exist for instance, right? And so when it's in Silicon Valley, though, like it's sick, the most random companies that will pop up, right? Like one of my most recent startups that I was like fascinating is a startup that would deliver gas to you. Like, and I was just like, first of all, I never. I never guess. Like they will never guess. Like they will come to your house. They will open up your gas tank. They will put the gas in your gas tank and then leave. And it was like, first of all, we're in Silicon Valley. Why don't we have all of your cars? But in second of all, you really can't go to the gas station. Like it just, that's a little crazy. Like and you don't just usually just go to the gas station. It's usually as you're going to something else, there's one on the way. And it's not that I guess you know what people are going to pay for it. And that's the thing. Great. Okay. Sure. And work with us ever exactly. Okay. Okay. So the, this whole premise of this, you being in Silicon Valley and from Chicago, weirdly, when I, we have not met before, I can't believe we haven't met because we're both from Chicago. And seriously, everyone in this town knows each other. We have 177 mutual connections on LinkedIn, which is again, crazy that we've never met. But okay. So move to the Bay Area. That's kind of a big change. We're in Chicago for a while. There's a lot of things that can improve here. There's a lot of great things in them. Terrible things about this city. So tell me about this, like we always want to know, where did you see a break in the status quo? And where did you go for it and say, I'm the person to make change in this arena. And how, what were you thinking? Where were you? What were you doing when you decided? Yeah, this is what I need to do with my life. You know, so it's really interesting. So obviously, I've been in the Bay Area for almost three years now. And I actually still have a lot of deep connections to Chicago's evidence by the fact that we now met virtually through our connections. But it's also, you know, I'm on the board of PowerBrown Health in Chicago, and I'm also on the board of YWCA Chicago. And so both those organizations, you know, are just key points that I think are most significant to not only Chicago, but to the world. So, you know, when you think about PowerBrown Health, PowerBrown Health is trying to revolutionize the way that LGBTQ+ healthcare is done in this country. You know, we believe healthcare is a human right. And we believe that LGBTQ+ people are humans that have that right, right? And then when you think about YWCA Chicago, YWCA Chicago is trying to eliminate racism and empower women. And so I, you know, I was raised by an army of like women who were often not given opportunities who were not empowered. Even my mother, you know, and when I connect those to the common theme is this idea of black women in healthcare, right? Now, whether that's a black, you know, trans woman of color, whether it's a black, LB, you know, LGBTQ woman of color, that's what I'm really, that's what I'm talking about here. And in fact, you know, I tell people all the time, you know, in 2012, my mother had a sore throat and she went to the hospital and she never made it out of that hospital. And it was primarily because they didn't really see her as a human. And so the theme of my work and the theme of the things I do outside of my, you know, my day job is all around this idea of helping people see the human and the other folks so that they can treat them in a way that they should be treated. And I think it's also because of this idea of potential, right? So when you think about every single person on this earth, we don't know what they're, we're they're in a being, right? And I think about, you know, the person who when I was walking down in the street in Chicago, when it was knowing as bad as it's snowing down there, right? There's like the homeless guy who would always be like, be, you know, you need to get a better jacket. Like your jacket isn't warm enough. Like you need to do that. And every single day that person encouraged me as I was tracking to my job and that, that's some point encouragement is why potentially I could still make it to where I'm today. So I think that human potential element is what's missing. And so a lot of my work is centered around helping people understand that and then trying to create equity and equality within that, right? So it's equity in terms of being able to go into spaces, any type of space and be treated like a human, right? So you know, when you think about applying for a job, I think it's like very fascinating. I'm mentoring like three or four different kids right now for all of it, like HBCUs or one of them is like my graduate school and it's like so fascinating to me because I've sent them out to talk to like various folks. A lot of them, you know, nothing gets, you know, white women, but like, you know, white women who don't initially have this interaction with these young black kids. And they were just like, be like that person talked differently than I. I was just like, I know that's why I want to do the talks to them because this is a learning, this is a learning for them, but it's also learning for you because all of a sudden because I signed off on that kid. You're like, well, one, I wouldn't talk to that kid otherwise. And then to you're like, actually, once I got through the fact that Renact was different in mine, I realized they're really smart. Right. And so there's this evolution that needs to happen with a lot of folks in terms of how they treat humans. So put the two together. So put the two things together that you do. You're doing this incredible equity work and trying to get everyone to see each other at human level. And then in your day job, you're doing product experience design. So I mean, is that a directive? I can see how they would work together, but how does that work influence your product is experience design. And then when you are especially working in a team of design or working with other people who don't see that way, how do you bring those people along in your day job to see that maybe they need to think about design for just not them or for other people or think about in other ways. How do you blend those two worlds? So a small point of clarification. So I'm a product manager. So I do work with designers, but I'm really much more interested in just the product in general. And I leave the actual, you know, designing to designers, because if you if you had me design something, it would look like a hot mess. You might be so excited because I do that part sometimes. I'm just like, it's no joke, but to have somebody with a clear vision of where it needs to go and who needs to do what and when and how and why and doing a really equitable dispersed way that's invaluable. So how do you how do all these things come together? So it's about the career right so like before my current company was at Apple and so I worked at the app store and so one of the things that's interesting about working for the app store is that once you have to start thinking about the app store, it's the fact that it can actually create a millionaire overnight. Right. And so if you think about that like creating an app store that is completely open to anyone of any background that has a simple SDK that anyone can use, that's part of it. And my current company we are one of the leading storytellers in the world. Right. And so for instance, I'm I'm one of the global co-chairs for both black and trans star. And so one of my big focuses is influencing the content that we create. So even outside of my day, I've been able to go to people because like you know when I think about myself as a child, I didn't have really in examples, for instance, of you know strong black masculine of center, you know assigned female and birth people. And so it's always just like you had to be this perfect housewife or you were like the single lady who can never get a man like there were never any of those stories these people who were in between right there also are very few black trans stories right. And so that's a part of this disjuring is like trying to continually position myself and being the right place to influence others to tell these stories like and not tell folks like for instance. And so I'm just like a manager all the time he's just like he's like you know like it's obvious that you like your you cool for your day job he's like but I don't think you're here because you like your day job as like I'm not. I'm here because I have the opportunity to you know show people my humanity and as a result they're going to tell stories to the people who were growing up who look like me. Or who are thinking about their gender in a way that I am thinking will have examples so that it'll be a little bit easier for them right and so that's really how the combination comes up it's about having the education the tools and experience to help people you know do a better job of bringing others into this story. You know like for instance even like so that the disclosure documentary that came out last year you know we had the great pleasure of consulting on that documentary before it came out and I was just it was the way people responded to the documentary they're like oh wait when I saw shanei on you know the Martin on the Martin show. I never realized how transphobic and misogynistic a lot of these things were and now I feel shane that I laughed at that I didn't understand how wrong it was that you know they were basically making fun of trans people or when people started talking about wait you know actually then I think about it I've never seen a trans woman of color on a show that didn't have some kind of disease wasn't dying didn't get killed didn't get raped. Now I want to see these other stories like I like how can I help you you know if there's something very powerful in being in the right spaces in the right room and having the right power and authority to influence people to tell those stories that are so important that you know it changes like it really changes the way people think about the world. And you can you can I mean you could see that starting happen now I'm surprised that it's still it's just it's startling though to think about where we were 10 years ago and then where we are today it feels like we're in a totally different world which in we're nowhere near where we need to be but I'm actually surprised that we've come as far as we have is that crazy I just think that I thought I would sure take a lot longer. And in my life. Yeah. So people will tell you that like I'm not really a pessimist person where I'm pretty optimistic and so you know I spend a lot of time in a lot of rooms a lot of spaces where it was just very obvious that people had never thought about it. And that's the thing is that I think you know a core attribute of of the world that that kind of moves people forward is the idea of curiosity right and so the thing is is I think naturally people are curious but they don't always have the resources or means to like explore that curiosity which is why like you know with technology and as a technologist I love it because we can often bring all of those like massive like you know intimidating ideas and make them smaller and digestible so people can take that information. And then it peaks that curiosity and then what I love about curiosity is that once you become curious it creates friction in your life right so you know you friction to create a fire right so like you know you put something together starts creating a fire and that fire starts building within you and so it naturally innately changes you fundamentally and I think that's what's happening right the world is getting smaller of course people some people hate that but I actually love it like I love the fact that the world is getting smaller right and when the world is smaller is just so much easier to say. Actually let me let me you know Google this right to see if this is a real statement like like you know friends that's even like the young people in my life like they'll they'll check me real quick they're like be i'm googling that because I don't know if it's true or not and so that's something there's something very powerful about that but it also means that as an older to those young people I have to be better and so this is like this it's a circle of life that just is happening that's kind of improving all of us and creating this this this fire and this desire to be better right and it's also what am I going to say. So one of my co-workers she was talking about you know so this is a sister like woman and her kids and so she had made this commitment to her kids each day they were going to watch the scene so seeing in is doing this thing where it shows you know a little no black you know person in history that you should know about and she missed it yesterday and her kids were so mad they were like mom how could you make us miss it like we were planning on watching and she's just like this they're better accountability partners than my managers. And so that's the power of this like you know technology and how we're changing the world in this way. I like this low because I do like low risk curiosity to where you can Google something you can even be an incognito window and Google something to someone who knows what you're googling but like that idea of just having a place for no judgment curiosity is exciting little maybe a little dangerous but exciting because like if you're thinking about it, just the other day I was talking about I think Google has really killed a lot of our relationships like I remember before Google or any search or the internet really I would call my relatives my mom or my dad or whoever to say okay tell me how to I need help plumbing my toilet like do you know how to do and they would walk me through step by step you get frustrated you problem saw together there's no YouTube and you get it done but you have to spend hours on the phone with somebody. Now you can just watch a video and you don't have that connection like a lot of these like like informational tethers have sort of been cut but because we can just get this information quickly but I do like this fact checking aspect I do like the quiet simple curiosity you can really go down a rabbit hole with some things I think SEO and some some things have made. So I'm used to YouTube a little sinister about how things sort of go on and on and on and on yeah but it is a nice place to start an exploration and then figure out how to curate that with other people who have like minds which I think is what I'm trying to do and I think based on what's trying to do it too and but yeah what a cool idea to think about that and it's funny because I've been thinking about the idea of curiosity a lot because I took this leadership course or seminar progression something with this be called Vista Caballo a while ago and it turned out if they looked at these different modalities like in a time of crisis where do you go and I go to vision like I'm like I see where I'm going I'm a blast through it I'm just going to keep going and smash through that wall right but I don't always stop to think like is the sin emergency do I need other people with me to do it like my impulse is not to be curious at all and I think that if you're in triage or trauma or something like that in your life over and over a second. especially in this pandemic, it's really hard to switch to that curious brain 'cause you feel like, I just need to fight this fire right now and just do the best thing for right now. And I think curiosity and taking a moment to pause and think, that's maybe our way out of a lot of things that we've constructed around ourselves right now that are a problem. - Yeah, and actually, so let's go point to you because sometimes I think joy is the first door and then curiosity is the door that happens after that. Like I think a great example is like TikTok, right? So in TikTok, you know, first of all, their algorithm is a little dangerous 'cause like it knows me too well. In fact, I'm not sure my wife knows me as well as TikTok does. So like, you know, you started going through all these videos and you're just like, well, like that's really cool. That's really cool. Oh, let me look at that side. Oh, let me look up what they're talking about. And so I do also think, and so since I have so much joy associated with it or the company I work with, like one of our key goals is like this idea that we create joy for our customers. Right. And so then because you have that joy, you continue them as path to curiosity. So to your point of like the trauma that exists, joy often is the one, but that's actually the first step before you get into this level of curiosity where you can kind of create that friction in your life. So. - And that just brings it all the way back to what you were talking before, which is seeing someone as a human being or seeing someone as they are. That is a joyful experience to be seen like yet. Yes. And then you're like, guard down a little, okay, let's talk about things that are real. And just that makes so much sense that you do what you, okay, so what are your plans? Are you gonna start a consulting for her? I wanna tell your boss, I don't know your boss. - Well, it's actually so funny. So like that's like the common question. Everyone always says that, but I actually don't, like I'm not that type of person. Like I don't need to be the CEO or something. Like I really like super charting other people. Right. So for me, like so for instance, like you know, is I get approached by people and things like that. So I've got to approach by a few different, you know, large startups that are kind of getting into their, like we wanna be full grownups now. And you know, being approached for like, you know, VP product roles or COO type roles. And I'm just like, oh, that actually makes sense to me because I don't need to be the one who's in charge of everything, but I do need to be the one who helps you remember what you're doing. Like why are you doing this, right? Like why are we doing this? Who are we doing it for? How can we be better at it? Like that's the type of question that likes to answer. So my wife, you know, my wife is just like, you probably are gonna get stuck in a, you know, a much more like in front of everything role at some point. - Yeah, I can see that. But you know, I do like that's, I guess no. When I think about key statements about my life, I think how can I be of service, right? That's the first thing that comes to mind for me versus how can I leave this thing today? - Yeah, okay. Well, you're definitely gonna need to be in charge something if you're thinking about things that way. I mean, don't we need more leaders who think that way instead of saying that they're thinking? That would be great. Okay, so yeah, I've always said that I, even though I'm the president of founder of my company, which now is very small, I used to be a lot bigger. I'm definitely, people, I've asked me like, oh, are you gonna run for office? Or would you ever, number one, weigh too many skeletons in my closet? Number two, no one, I don't want everyone, no. - Now, I'm just gonna say that, but this is why I go and podcast those. I can tell all my skeletons now. I would be like, yeah, I already told you all about that. I told you what happened. So there's no scale to it. But actually, I think it's a Chicago thing. 'Cause when I was in Chicago, people would always be like, do you want to run for office? I was like, why do I need to run an office for office? I would, did you ever see that? There's like the TV show that was on Netflix, it was called The Family. And so it's like this, this like, crazy illuminati family that runs everything. I was like, I'm much more being that person in the family than I am of being the politician. - Yeah, absolutely. - Because it seems like the politician's job sucks. So I'm not trying to do that. - I don't think I can handle being put up for public scrutiny. I just don't think I have, I don't have the heart for it. I think I would cry every time I made a speech and it would just go to shit right away. I would watch another picture, yeah. What? - I was like, I don't feel okay if you're crying. I think I'm gonna cry. - I just think it's one of those things that like, I like so, you know, I am a justice warrior. You know, I'm an advocate. And I just don't think that being a politician lets you do that work, right? You know, even like, you know, like for the time of it's a law school and that ended dropping out because like, like the technology sector, I was like, oh, actually, I think I can still do that work here, right? And it was just so fascinating because like my professor was trying to convince me to stay and he was like, why won't you stay? And I was like, well, because I realized there are many paths to the same solution, right? And so what I, and again, it goes to the curiosity point, right? Like, so many people are so focused on like, is there's only one path to get this thing done? Like if I want to, you know, increase the number of rights for Black folks, if I want to, you know, create pay equity for women, I have to go do this thing. And I'm like, or you could do it a different way, right? And I think that's the thing that we have to remember. Like we don't have to all, you know, subscribe to the, the parameters that they try to force upon us, right? I mean, even like to the two party systems, like Democrats or Republicans, I'm like, I'm not, I'm not one of you. Now, what are y'all talking a little bit more common since the other one, right? But the simple fact is I am a person who just cares about humans and I'm trying to figure out how to do that. And y'all are trying to argue like, like, I don't do argument. I just go right past that and get the work done. Yes, same. I mean, I have a party that I usually vote for, but it's not to say that I agree with everything that they say. That's for sure, especially since, you know, as a business owner, I have a lot of interest in that community and what's going on and trying not to be an asshole capitalist, but I am in a capitalist country and a capitalist system and I run a corporation. It is a B-Corp, but, you know, I still have to play by some of the rules. And, you know, we can talk a lot about extractive and regenerative economies and all these other things, but at the end of the day, like, we have to make money and it has to come from somewhere. And it's just this big conversation and I'd love to buy some land in a commune, 100%. I would love to do that. But that presents a whole other suite of problems that I don't know if I can handle. Exactly. I'm like, there's also bugs there. So I'm just going to have to tap out the bugs. I just want to just clear. That's true. Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of survival skills, but I don't know if I could deal with giant spiders. I'm afraid of snakes too. So I don't think I'd last very long. Yeah. So, OK, so I feel like I get to talk to you for a long, long time about all these things because it's so interconnected and so obviously interconnected. And I wish you'd come back Chicago and do something amazing here. But I don't-- I also love that you're in California. And when it's snowing like this, we should all move there. But OK, one of the things we talked about before we started taping was, so this is a common theme. I feel like when I was at the conscious company leader summit a few years ago in California, and we were-- it was like we were on the table. And we were all these conscious business leaders. And it was the first summit. And there were 200 of us from all over the world. And I think it was the day that Anthony Bourdain died and are the day after. And Error was announced. And everyone was just sitting there incredulous. And I sat in front of this woman who was a CEO of a major corporation. And she said, I get it. And I said, yeah, I get it. Like the pressure to perform and to be a thing in the front of a movement or as a personality is crippling sometimes. Like it just is a lot to carry around. Especially if you're doing a thing within a system that is a new idea. And you're the person who sort of carries that idea or that torch through a system that is not designed for that idea. It can be really gut-wrenching at times. And a lot of people wanted to-- I wanted to quit my company many, many, many times in 17 years. But I have amazing partner. And I love the work that we do, so I don't. But it's not to say that I don't have that idea every once and a while. So in this vein of sort of mental health in these sort of on the edge of an idea or on the edge of a movement, how do you keep yourself going? Like how do you keep putting all these ideas together, not selling out, doing the thing, the next best thing, the next right thing? How do you do this? So I guess outside of my day job, and sometimes talking to you and sometimes consulting, one of the things I do is I do a lot of speaking. And one of the things-- what my favorite topic to speak on is defining yourself, finding-- figuring out how to find your super power. And to me, the first step to finding your super power is to do an analysis of who you are. And so many years ago, I actually sat down and I was like, let me define who be is. So what are the things that are most important to me? And what's really good, I think, is once you figure that out, holding yourself accountable to that. And so my wife would almost say, you're kind of like a robot sometimes. You're like, that does not fall within the parameters of the plan. So I'm just going to throw that over on the other side. And I'm going to keep on moving. And so it gets that boundary setting, I think, for me. That really makes a big difference. And so when I think about my priorities, obviously, this work is so important to me. But the number one thing is my family. And the number one way to be great from my family is for me to be healthy. And if I feel as though I'm even becoming a little bit diminished, I am feeling on my first parameter. And so it becomes very easy for me to say now. And I should say the number of requests that people-- especially like if someone if he. people start to think that you're good at something, like it just becomes like overwhelming. How many people contact you? They want to have one on one. They want to pick your brain. They want to do all these different things. I mean, and then when you start saying no, they'll be like, well, actually, I'll pay you. And I'm just like, no, actually, it's just not worth it, right? It's not worth it. Because you're making me start to fill on my number one parameter. And so I think that's the thing. Like you have to remember, like whatever your number one thing is, make sure you remember that and you recite it and you hold yourself accountable to it every day. And it just becomes much easier to maintain that mental health, you know, that mental awareness. I mean, like even with my current job, like people would die to have my job and to work at my current company. And that's on my manager on a regular basis. You don't want to stress me out because baby, I will quit. I was like, I will just leave you. I will just be gone, right? Because that's not your messing with my number one parameter. And so I do think that there is like, but I also know how difficult that is, right? Because it's scary to think that you're not going to have something. You know, it's scary to think that you're going to lose your your cash pay to be that person who's a go-to person on a given topic. But the reality is that again, life is sickleful. So, you know, you built a period where maybe you say no. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're like, oh, no one's reaching out to me. At some point, somebody's going to come back, come back to you, right? So just remember that if you are good at what you do, if the worth that you're doing is valuable, it's always going to be there. You know, so don't ever put yourself in a position that your mental health is suffering, that you know, you're not doing what you need to do to be successful because that will kill you. Say no, will not. A hard no is so great. And if it's meant to be, it'll come back. And I love that idea. And yeah, I love saying no to stuff because it's funny when I met my girlfriend on a dating app, right? And it turned out we already knew each other because we're in Chicago and everyone knows everybody. But she said, okay, so if I had met you, if we had been in a work situation and I, and she's like, I would have flirted with you and I said, I would have never noticed because I would have been in work mode. There is no way that I would have picked up on that. And she said, and I said, well, how would you have gotten my attention? And she said, well, I would have asked like, can you up for coffee? Can I pick your brain? And I said, if you had said that to me, I would have said no. Because I don't. Your brain sessions, I just don't do it because it's not what I need to do professionally right now. No, exactly. Well, funny enough, I also met my wife when I dating at. Okay. And the way the way she convinced me to meet the first time is that it was a, it was a mutual networking event. And she was just like, because we were supposed to just be friends, like we weren't supposed to be anything more than that. And she was just like, well, let's go to this mutual networking event. And so we won't be alone. And so that was the way she got me to go. And so there is something, there's something powerful about that like provide value, even provide value in business relationships and personal relationships that they have to work out. I did the reverse. I said, at our first date, I said, well, if it doesn't go well at the very least, this is great networking. Because we have felt many connections. It's so great. And I think that's a good place to land. I'm so excited to meet you. I feel like I've known you already somehow. I'd love to keep in touch or and we definitely won't pick each other's brains. Definitely not. Oh no. Well, thank you again, B. It was so good to meet you. Everyone will see you next time.