S2-E6- What Judges Want- Doug Rousar

Speaker 2 Hello. Welcome to today's episode of what judges want. We have something slightly different again and we are going to speak to mr. Doug Rosa about his new scoring system, I've heard a lot about this, but no, absolutely none of the details. So let's get straight into it. So, hey, Doug. How's it going? Speaker 1 It's going great. But how are you? Speaker 2 I'm very good. I understand. You're tired from a extremely awesome weekend at Charlotte Westie first. Yeah, it was great. Recovering. Okay. I am I am. Okay, that's good. What you have? Chief judge sir. Speaker 1 I was. Yeah. And number skyrocketed so it was really exciting had some of the largest divisions and quite a while that I've worked on. So it was it was exhilarating. It was Speaker 2 fun. That's cool. That's awesome. So thank you for joining me. This has been a this is an exciting one because we're going to come at it from a different angle. So you have come up with a system, a new system for judging and making it slightly fairer or In it to me. Speaker 1 Yeah. So it's a new mechanic really? If you kind of think about the algorithms and what goes on behind the scenes, once those scores been submitted from a judge and it kind of drives the behavior of the judges as well as kind of the end results in, of course, dialing into the fairness of everything. And I've over the years as I've dug and tablets, really expose this for me at a much deeper data level, that the Put a system just isn't working exactly the way. I think everyone thinks it is. And so I started to prototype a new mechanic that has a lot of now added benefits that I didn't see when I first started that has continually just like, oh yeah it does this. Oh, this is great. So it's a whole new mechanic and it essentially Drive the behavior that for the judges do kind of operate in a slightly different way on the floor. When and this is primarily, it's not primarily. Absolutely for Jack and Jill. Prelims only, okay, fine finals, business, as usual, this is really just changing the whole approach of, yes, no alternate to something a little bit more in depth a little bit more fair, okay, in general. Speaker 2 So, tell me for people that don't know how does it work at the moment and you can be quick, I'm sure you're bored of talking about about how does the judging system work in the Speaker 1 moment. Yeah, absolutely. So in today's current environment is actually been this way for quite a while. Mrs. I started way back in 2000. Yes, no alt. So the the chief judge gives the judges a quota system, essentially to abide by in a prelim, based off the numbers. And what they want to bring back, they'll say I need 30 yeses and three alternates. Okay, so if you can, imagine that you got 60 dancers on the floor, the judges are really just kind of playing scavenger hunt at that point. They're, they're having to look everywhere all at once kind of get a sense of Is the first answer, I looked at better or worse than the 60th dancer. I looked at and essentially make a decision on the Fly of just giving them a flat. Yes. And alternate or no. Yeah then the way the system works the algorithms behind the scene is, there's Point values assigned to those assignments. So yes is given 10 points alts are giving Specific values for the different alternate so you can do alt one all to all three. They all have unique values and then, no, get zero and that's that's the first exposure to the the overarching flaw of the system is that if you gave 30? Yes, is the algorithm says, well, okay, these top 30 dancers all are getting the exact same score value of 10. So you have no understanding of the depth of that field where they actually fell in that. Yes, where they just barely Making it, or are they top the top? And then the same goes for the nose. So if you've got, you know, twenty six dancers left in the pool, that all got knows, well, they're all getting zero points. There's no reflection as to whether they are just barely like, are they doing that alt for position? But the judge couldn't give out for more, they dead last. So, ultimately, there's points assigned. The points are summed up, and then you've heard this term on the podcast before. Before they look for the natural break. Yes. But in my opinion, I actually find those brakes to be very unnatural, okay? Because there is no true natural break in that because of the fact that the scores that are assigned are all equal and it all it takes is for the chief judge on a. We have to say, well, instead of giving me 30 and 3, give me twenty nine and three or give me thirty one and three and the whole dynamic of the He'll changes. I've done a number of tests where there's a good swing of like six to nine dancers that made it to the next round in one algorithm, you know, the 15th, the thirty and three. And then they didn't in the thirty one and three, because the scores behind the Speaker 2 scenes, mmm. Speaker 1 So there's no true assessment of value of the dancer where they actually fell is just kind of like hitting these arbitrary scores because of the values of yes and Speaker 2 no. Yeah, okay. And Then, so you've looked at this and what's the next step for you with with your, how you're doing it then? So what's sure is. Speaker 1 Yeah, so the scoring system, I'm calling it relative rank just to kind of get that name out there and create some familiarity to it. It's called relative rank the. The way I would like to see the competition operate. Is that the judges just go out and give a score? They score every dancer in the field based on their expectations for that level. So when they're watching a novice prelim, they should be looking for what they expect from a novice dancer and reward. The best novice dancers on the floor and just literally give everybody a great. And the cool thing about this mechanic is the judge can still live within their Speaker 2 own range. Yes. Speaker 1 So like Debbie's says she likes to school or 70 to 100. Well somebody else meal like to do 0 to 100 here. Am I The higher, the number, the better the score. Yeah, that's the only thing that matters. And so now the scoring system will do a couple different things. It creates a level of transparency and Visually gives the competitor and idea of where they fell within the scope of the field because what my system shows. And you can see it in my broadcast, I demonstrate this is a bar graph. So you don't see the score that was given to you. That's irrelevant. What's relevant is, how did you fit amongst the field of dancer? On the floor. Where did you fall within the expectations of the judge? You could have met the could be a whole field, that's just meeting expectations and you didn't make finals because you just happen to be at the bottom of a really good field of dancers. Mmm, or I didn't make Fine Arts and I'm way down here and the rest of the field is way up there. So you get a perspective of why, or where you actually were in the field. Then that gets converted to a rank. So the judges highest score becomes 1 and if they're sick, XT dancers on the floor, the judges lowest score becomes 60, and then they just get that rank throughout the field. And then that rank is used and plugged into a relative placement system to actually Define where those natural breaks are for the Callback and as Debbie. And her podcast talked about relative placement. Already has these built-in levels of tiebreak that are just levels and layers, deep that It takes a lot longer for the chief judge to have to provide their store. You get to utilize all your judges scores all the way through all the tiebreaks. So you actually are using your judges appropriately rather than all this arbitrary scoring system that assigned points. Now gives me this block of dancers and I have to plug in my score which is Quite frankly, probably the worst score out of the pack, just because of, like Debbie said, you have to score everybody. And that's quick, and it's first impression type of Speaker 2 deal. Yeah. Yeah, and what happens if, so, as a judge, I can do duplicate scores. If I put 2 people at 70 or do I need them, all to be different. Judges didn't do Speaker 1 know you in my opinion and what I've seen work, really well from the data points that we've had is duplicate scores are, you know, appropriate. If you have a field of St. Dancers on the floor. It's unrealistic to think that you're going to have 60 unique scores. You're going to have natural peer groups within that field. You'll have your, your cream of the crop. You'll have your folks in the middle. And then you'll have your folks that are just, you know, they're just not quite there for that level yet. So it works itself out, really, really well. And the relative placement. Mechanic still works. Well with duplicate scores because what you essentially see at the end is you would see something like 11 12 One one, one, four, four, seven eight. So it still puts it into their peer groups and you can see where your natural breaks are. You can make this like really good decisions on those packs or peer groups of dancers to, as to who to advance to the next Speaker 2 round. You know, what's what's really funny dog? I had no idea what this was. Maybe I should have done some research and but I hearing it for the first time and I actually we did this a country event recently a bark. Country event where each judge gave scores. But we did it per song. So they had to watch every dancer per song and it was brilliant like that. What you're saying about the feedback that the dancers are getting feedback per song. These little bar graph, type things and we did the different song. So slow medium and fast and dancers. Could look at it and go, oh, I'm not very good at the fast ones, I need to do better, right? We good. And it was this like, free feedback, everyone got. And as I say, I didn't know what you were going to come on and say, I'd heard that you are trying to standardize West Coast Swing more. Speaker 1 No no I think that's the mystery. I think that's a misconception. I absolutely love the dance and how it Ebbs and flows and it grows and it changes. And I know that there are an abundance number of people in the community that love the fact that there's no standard set rules. And I happen to be kind of one of those folks that I think given how subjective dance is and how much West Coast Swing changes, I don't think a standard rule set work. X. However, what I do want to see is more transparency for the judges to expose what their criteria and expectations are from event to event to event. And we're going to talk about it before this podcast is over. But this new mechanic actually gives us the opportunity to do what I call skill-based relative rank, which is a lot of what you just kind of brought up, but I have no that there's no perfect scoring system either. Glenn, I just want to make that really clear. I don't feel like this sorting system is perfect. I don't think there can be a perfect scoring system for our dance because of how vastly different it is. We have judges who learned the dance, 30 years ago, we have judges who learned that dance 20 years ago, we have judges who learned it recently. None of them are wrong, they just all come at it. From a different perspective of a. The dance was when they fell in love with it. So I just want to expose that I want competitors to be able to get information like, okay at this. Event for their expectations. For the dance is XY and z. And if I don't do well, I didn't meet those expectations, but that doesn't mean the next events going to be the same. I want to look at the next one and see what the expectations are. But the scoring system itself doesn't require that the mechanic itself, just the relative rank side of things, doesn't change any of that. It doesn't imply any type of standard, it doesn't imply any type of rule set. It's just really changing the way the judge. Operate on the floor as opposed to trying to constantly compare who has better as worse or I met my quota. So now therefore I don't necessarily have to look as close anymore. I want the judges to have to score every dancer on the floor to me that's super valuable Speaker 2 and and to me we they're the reason I copied or I did it at the Austin Country Jam was because that's how we used to do it in hip-hop and it really does feel less pressure. I just have to be aware of Of my grading system, my criteria and you stick to it and it was I mean it's so much easier for me as a judge to look at someone and give them a score. Then look at them and have to work out if there are. Yes. No and Speaker 1 opener. Exactly. It's exactly my point. It's so much pressure. Yeah, yeah. And so, the skill-based side of it is utilizing the same exact mechanic we just talked about, but the, the fundamental idea audit is each judge is assigned a particular. Skill set, that's expected for that level. Okay, so and the expectation is each level adds another layer. So if I were just kind of being kind of generic in my response here, like newcomer novice really is like timing footwork Connection in frame, right? Like if you're truly scoring a novice contest, you're not looking for musicality and Showmanship. Those are upper level attributes or skills. So you would have a judge that's looking just at timing and what's great about that, right? Wrong or indifferent, agree with what the judge is looking at or not. They're holding every dancer on the floor to the exact same standard right there. Looking at a certain criteria. They have a certain expectation and from dancer, a dancer, be there being scored on the same merits and then you would have a judge looking at footwork and then you'd have a judge looking at connection frame. And then at the end of the day, those scores all come together. Our and you get your ranking and then for intermediate introduce like variations or, you know, depth of the dance like, are you, you know, level changes speed changes powder and variations. Those types of things, get introduced at intermediate and again, I'm being kind of high level Advanced. You would then add like musicality and then you're adding judges for each of those skill elements. And they're looking at that information only in a perfect world. Old the judges provide their expectations up front that gets posted to the events website and rules. You don't know who the judges are. You just know that the leader judge for timing is looking at these things and then post-event? What's amazing about it is now you go up and you look at your results and then instead of seeing a no or a yes you are seeing that. I didn't do well in timing. Am I judge for leaders in timing was so and so and this is They judged against and I can go home to my coach and say, I need help with Speaker 2 this. Yeah, yeah. And I like that for two reasons, one, because the students. Now know what we judges are looking for. But it also forces the judges to know what they're looking for. If you say about the writing something out, or the video of, hey, this is how I'm judging it, because I do think that's one of our main problems in swing. Is that the judges aren't held accountable. So, they probably haven't looked deep inside of what? They're actually even in. Interested in? Speaker 1 Yeah, it's loving the process. Do you like as a chief judge? It's creating a stronger relationship between me and my judges at the events because the the handful of events that we've done this where there's a bunch of collaboration leading into the event. Yeah. And I get a feel like for what my judges are prioritizing and very much like Debbie. I'm not telling them how to judge. I'm not telling them what to judge. I take their right up and then I make suggestions like, okay, well, I can see where this maybe Is bran. Rushing over into time. I mean there's a timing judge so maybe you want to like, nailed down, or are styling versus me. So we just have this great collaboration and ultimately at the end of the day, it's their choice and I take their choice and I publish it. And it's, it's really awesome collaboration and I'm really enjoying Speaker 2 it. Yeah. And so um, and as I say, like going back to hip-hop that was what used to happen. The event direct to use to really give us a meeting of what he was expecting. And the thing is hip-hop's, not that dissimilar to West Coast is in, we've all come from different places so we would all go off in our own Direction. But at least it was from a starting point of of like collaboration as you say that's what we don't do in West Coast, we don't we don't all have to agree on the same thing but it would be good to at least start the conversation. Yes. Speaker 1 And it'd be great for like as judges on what I'm finding is that they're starting to create a library of their criteria. And like, so you kind of like, As a judge and I found guilty of this in the past where you kind of have this overarching, kind of broad spectrum, feel of like, what I'm going to look for in the field but every time I look at a different dancer, they're highlighting. Something different. So now I'm kind of and I'm not waiting that the same from dancer, the dancer trying to figure out what's the balance there. So here the judges are now starting to get a library because they're having to think about it. Oh okay. You want me looking just at Tommy? What is it about? Tommy that I really prioritize and then what I'm hoping is over. Time. It becomes less work but as the dance changes, now they can look at their library of definitions ago. I can see the dance is kind of evolved to this. The anchor is a little different now. So let me update my criteria and now it's front of Mind of like, okay, this is what I'm looking for in Speaker 2 the dance. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the so, the one thing that would worry me with that is the one person is is looking after timing. Let's say and any biases any Favoritism, any geographical favor, you know, that suddenly becomes very the kind of the Forefront and risky. What have people said about? Because just one person's opinion on one particular category. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I love that question. So much. So in the current environment bias can't be checked, but I can't, if I have a Dancer come to me at the end of the weekend, say dog so-and-so. Scored me poorly and I did they just hate me. I just don't understand why they give me last place. And I go to that judge and they go well their timing was off. Yeah. Okay so they can pick anything under the sun. They could pick anything under the sun to reinforce their bias. If they're if we are now taking advantage of skill-based relative rank not just relative rank because relative rank really doesn't solve this problem. It stays the same but skill-based relative rank now if I have a judge that's looking at timing and I have somebody come to me and says I really feel this judge has a problem with me, whatever it may be. And they scored be well, well, I know they were a timing judge. I have their write-up of the criteria, they were looking at and I can watch a video and then as a chief judge, I can go. Yes. It's almost like a play review and football, right. I can look at it and go, well, I'm not seeing an issue so I can't see where you can justify storing them low on timing. Yeah. Or or I can and I can go back to the competitor and say based off of the criteria. They were looking at in the video that I watched I could see where your score would be lower and you would advance so it doesn't remove the issue of bias, but in my opinion, it creates an opportunity for us to. Now evaluate the judges and say, are you indeed scoring based off of what you told me? You were going to score on. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And because that's it. There's no consequence at the moment. I mean I've been in in Europe and the French judge or the jury. I always say French is funny when I tell this story but German judge Never puts all the Germans, through puts all the English rights and no one ever asks. But as you say in this situation, there's quite a categoric question of. Well, this to us doesn't look on time. How come you put them through on your timing grade? That's exactly right. So, that's a great. That sounds awesome. So tell me this. What? Because I sit here, to be honest and I'm like, oh, this sounds phenomenal. Why aren't we doing it? Like why aren't we doing it? What's been, the backlight? Is it more money for event directors? What's the? What's the rebuttal? Or what's the? Why isn't it happening? Speaker 1 There's for a really good reason. I actually did a presentation, I did get an audience with the world swing dance console. They regulate the scoring mechanic that has to be used at world's meanest Council, Jack and Jill's. So it is in their rules for an abiding event that they have to do, Excuse me? Yes, no alternate. And they have to have those very specific point values. So that's, that's baked in. So I would this was well read I received I did some lie. Demos I showed where the bolts are and changed and it was well received and that, but I understand their position. They need data. They need example data, they need data sets. They need to understand that they're not introducing now a critical flaw. It's the same thing. It's like I was releasing new software. Yes. Right I would need I would need user acceptance. Testing to make sure it is indeed doing what I said it's going to do. So that's really where I'm at and unfortunately or fortunately and unfortunately Fortunately events that are non wsd see. The Fortress side is they have the freedom to be able to do this and I love them for it. They let me come at it but let me do it. I've got two back-to-back. A matter of fact, I have one this weekend in San Antonio and I have one instance, an area that we can following, that's doing the skill-based side because there are events that are prioritizing growth and development within their community and they see the value of skill-based being able to give that feedback. Yeah. So I've had a couple WS D c-- events actually come to me that are well, well staffed in My Hope Is that we'll be able to do a parallel tests at one of the events where we can, we can have the run that wsd see the way it's supposed to be done and then have extra judges on the floor to just do relative rank that skill base but just your relative rank. So we can get a really good data set. Yeah, I'm also working with one of the scores. But tablet scores. And I hope to reach out to the others where I can get raw data behind the scenes. So if the chief judge can ask their judges to be intentional about where they place the slider, not just arbitrary yeses and arbitrary knows. But if they're intentional about where they place the sliders, then I can take that raw data behind the scenes and plug it into relative ranking, then we can start to do some side by side comparison. So the answer your question is, is just a matter of time. It's just getting it out there and expose finding more event directors that are willing to To do it, if they're not on WS DC and to get some bigger size because I'm telling you I really think this relative rank for like a mad Jam would be amazing. Yeah. Like as a judge in Imagine preliminary when you got 120 followers and you're told to bring back 60 for the next round and you'd have to remember if the first answer you looked at is better or worse than the 120th dancer, you looked at It's not as it's not practical, but if I just give every dancer on the floor of score, it'll work itself out in the Speaker 2 end. Yeah, and go and jump in back. I found it really interesting at the Austin Country Jam because I said to them, look, we're doing it 40 to 100, I gave them the rank and I gave him a rough like, you know, 50 to 60 is good and you know I wanted them all in the same direction but it was really interesting because like Sloan you see WBC champion was like all of his scores are real high, you know. In 80, but I didn't care as long as he was consistent and then wizard who is 50 to 60 at like so her 58 was really, really good. Yeah. And and it was just so fascinating because these dancers got this, this reward of this reaction. But and then it was funny because someone said to me, oh, Susan, didn't like me. I went, no, no. Look at our scores 56, right? Very high, you know, it's a bit. It's just so good that people are now looking at that and receiving this live feed back and say I came Onto this this call not knowing what what I was going to hear. And I sit here thinking, okay, well I just can't wait for this to be implemented maybe a year's time or you know, whenever it will Speaker 1 be. Yeah, I'm telling you the score sheets like a poster at the end the week, or so valuable. So, like very much similar to what you're talking about. I've been through a number of scoring systems and one of though, the biggest feedback from programs. For example, where raw scores are very commonplace in west coast, swing and you have judges with different ranges is like, oh, that judge hate. Me, they gave me a 40, but they don't look at the perspective of the highest score that gave was a 60, right? You are 50. So, the sheets that I produce again, are just bar graphs, so the the score itself isn't exposed what you see in the bar graph, amongst your peers is, where did I fall within the field? Yes. I on the high-end, the middle under the low end and then the ranking tells you, well, how did I place within the field and then the relative placement? Then ultimately works out. Well, where's the majority fall? And then Then you make your way into finals and just to share some competitors stories. Midwest Westie Fest. We a handful of us witnessed two really cool moments with the, with the sheets on the wall. We had one dancer that came up and made finals. Now typically they would see all yeses across the bar, right? They get that false sense of security alarm Rock and yet I made I made finals. Well, in this case, they made finals. But they saw that of all the criteria that was being evaluated their foot work was the lowest score. So they came away, I don't run. Finals. They're super excited but I need to work on my footwork. Like, you know, how valuable that is? Like, if you're in novice and you're getting those at false sense of security, of you're making files making finals, make the finals, you hit intermediate and now you're not doing so well, well, you have this skill set that's just barely getting through because you're let's just make it up, your timings amazing and your connections incredible. Your footwork is not so great but these other elements are getting you through. Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah. And Speaker 1 then the other scenario was someone who didn't make finals that ran over to their coach cheering. Like they, like they saw a didn't make finals, they ran over to their coach cheering. They're like I did make finals, but we've been working so hard on my connection and my connections, the highest score. Yeah, they were so excited about that that the what the work they've been putting into their dance was reflected on that sheet, even though they didn't make it to the next round in today's environment. All you see? Is that no? Yeah, right. And then you go to the judge whose judged all weekend. You're like, why did you, why did you not put me through the files? And they're like, well, and I'll be honest, I mean, I'm probably not going to be popular for me. This comment but I can't think of a judge I could give an accurate and true answer at the end of a weekend, judging 500 answers and going. Well, I didn't put you through because you or did X Y or Z. They're going to be very Broad in generalized in there and their statement. So Speaker 2 I'm always have based. You didn't say to me and I spoke to. So, and so, and he said this this, and this and I go, when did you talk to him and they go? Well, after the scores and I'm like, how did he know like some of these judges? I swear just say the same. Thing to every every person comes out because there's no way they can remember them. Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm what kind of buddies, right? I'm sure there's somebody out there with a brilliant like, you know, Pick Your Perfect Memory but I mean, I know after I've, I'm very intentional when I judge. I have a very, very set standard of the things that I look at. I'm very particular and even at the end of the weekend, I have learned over time that all I can do is share with them. What my my priorities are and I can't speak to the dance that I saw, but I can speak to what my priorities are, and that's the only thing I can do. Yeah, that makes sense. Speaker 2 So, one quick question, and this might be something. I mean, it might not be for the podcast, it might be more for event directors. But does this not add element of work to the judges before the event? I mean, how does that work with budgeting of you? Have you thought about that? Or I mean, I obviously, I do everything for free. I don't charge anyone any money. So but now go to you. Hey, I need an extra hours worth of work to write up these things. Or how does how does that work? Speaker 1 Well, initially, just like anything worth doing, it's going to be a bit of a going to be a little bit of work and a little bit of a challenge me personally, I feel bad for my peer group of teaches because I do recognize that it's more work upfront, but if they're anything like me, I'm loving it. I'm loving the collaboration. I love going. Into the event rock-solid knowing what my judging panel is all about and what they're looking for and then at the end of the weekend I can support them wholeheartedly. So I loving that aspect of it for the judges. He has a little bit of work, but I think it's going to course-correct over time because like, for example, I have a judge this weekend, I accidentally not on be knowing accidentally. I put them on the same role and the same skill set that I had at the last event and I didn't realize I did that, but he just messaged me and said, can you use Right up from last time. So if the judges start to create a library of their criteria, what they're looking for in theory, it should really be no extra work. It should be, you're getting your judges schedule. I know I'm doing followers and I'm doing intermediate Advanced and I'm doing variations. Oh, I've got that. Let me just copy that, paste it into the you know, over to the chief judge and then they they compiled the dock. So yes, upfront more work but I think any compassionate judge Or passionate judge, I should say that really has a strong desire for fairness and giving the community more information about their dancing and wanting to see the community improve, I would hope they would be behind this and would take the the 10 minutes or so. 15 minutes to write something Speaker 2 out. Yeah. And we should have all done it before. Now that's the thing that frustrates me. I don't believe that all the judges have all of these compartmentalised in their in their head of what we're actually looking for and that's why. I always say this podcast was for the dancers but it was also to make judges think of it more as well. Oh, carry on sorry. Speaker 1 Well yeah you know the to be completely candid with you and like I saw the podcast come up with judges wine. I'm like well that's broad you know we had like because you can hear the perspective from one judged. I think the problem that I experience or see is that those opinions have way Speaker 2 it did, and they Speaker 1 Tell me what they want in order for me to score well or make finals. I think that's the I think that's the gold standard, right? So then I work my ass off to sorry is this family-friendly working my butt off to incorporate that but then I don't do well at the next couple of events so I that Pro hasn't even judged me yet and I'm getting somebody else's. What what they want, right? So I think the podcast is brilliant in that. You start to see that there is you know a broad spectrum of what judges. Sighs and it has a lot to do gun, like, with what you were talking about background. Hmm. Yeah, I mean, like somebody who starts in hip-hop that comes in the west coast swing. It becomes an established Pro may be looking at musicality and level of difficulty over Basics. Maybe that's a maybe somebody who comes in from a ballroom and Transitions. And me, it has a completely different priority set up what they feel they want to look at. Yeah, all I'm trying to do is I don't want the big argument or the big flight of everyone to try and land on the same things I think. Realistically, everyone's got the same goal Speaker 2 in mind. Speaker 1 Everyone just has a different trajectory to get there. Yeah. And so I just want to expose that I want to be more transparent and I don't want anyone ever feeling like what they're putting out there is the absolute or or not. I just want them to be able to express what they want and they have that available at a event to event level. Because if it's a bunch of regional judges, they're going to have different expectations. And if you bring in a bunch of National Pros. Yeah, so that's all I'm looking for it. And I'm glad you asked that question because I feel like that might be a misconception out there what I'm trying to accomplish and it's really not. I just want the dancers to get more value for their experience and their dollar. Yeah, in the competition. So Speaker 2 well and you you're going to send me the link for the tool can I'll put that on both the Facebook and the where I post a podcast as well. So pretty click on it and if anyone's got any questions I'll tell them to Shout out to you or they can put comments in in the Facebook group, but thank you for giving up so much of your lunch break to talk to me. Speaker 1 Absolutely, any Speaker 2 time. And yeah, maybe we'll reconvene with it in about six months time and see where you're at. Perfect Glen. Thank you so Speaker 1 much for bringing light on this and exposing it. I do appreciate it. Thank you so Speaker 2 much. You got it. Thank you. Speaker 1 What George is what? Thank you Speaker 2 so much for listening. Once again, please share this with your friends, we need more listeners I probably only got a couple more. I can't remember what episode this is. I think episode 60, maybe there's a couple more to go to build it up to eight episodes. Please share it. Thank you so much for your support. I'll see you next week. I probably only got a couple more. I can't remember what episode this is. I think episode 60, maybe there's a couple more to go to build it up to eight episodes. Please share it. Thank you so much for your support. I'll see you next week.