S2-E5- What Judges Want- Debbie Figueroa

Speaker 1 to what judges want Speaker 2 today on? What judges want, I am sat in the broom cupboard at go dance and so if you hear random sounds around them to step random, West Coast Music blaring in the background. That is why, and I'm super excited to have a Debbie Figueroa on who is an incredible dancer, but also a chief judge on the circuit at the moment. So we get to find out about Chief judge stuff. Hey, Debbie, how's it going? Speaker 3 Hey, pretty good. How you doing? Speaker 2 Good, I'm good. I'm so glad I finally got you on and that you joined me on this Monday afternoon? Yes, it's afternoon. In a freezing, Austin. Speaker 3 I know, right? You brought your your England weather here, but Speaker 2 I know and yesterday, Susan said it was like 70 in the morning and then it dropped to like 35 or something. It was Speaker 3 like, it was I was sweating when I started my run and cold by the time I finished. Speaker 2 Yes. Oh, it should be, yeah, yeah. So I feel. We're lucky. Lucky to have you on. It's another Chief to like an expert. Chief judge. Not just any chief judge. You've been doing it. Oh yeah. In fact, how long have you been doing this crazy? West Coast, Swing world. Speaker 3 I've been doing the West Coast Swing world since 1995. Wow, Let's Open was my first competition with Barry Durand. Oh wow, you had to wear high heels and classic back then. So I bought High Speaker 1 At the competition Speaker 3 learned how to wear them in like an hour and wow, is it was that? That was a rule. You Speaker 2 have to wear high heels or it's just an Unwritten Speaker 3 rule. No it was a rule. Speaker 1 Wow ingested. This is Speaker 2 already leading onto the shoes and the the stuff we've spoken about in there what judges want so far. So that was a rule to wear high Speaker 3 heels. Hmm. You know, when that Speaker 1 changed Speaker 3 I want to say late 90s this was you You know, hardcore 1995. But when the music changed, we all started complaining. And I think that because when the music changed, it doesn't look good to do. Hip hop in high heels. Yeah, you know, and, and the lead is the leads. Were choosing different Speaker 1 choreography. Yes. Oh, it's it's really hard to be ladylike in high heels, without that kind of music. Yes. Yeah, that makes me Speaker 2 interested. I didn't know that. So, so 95. So, and then when You start judging and chief judging, I mean, what was your? I always hate this word trajectory. Is that how I say it? I guess you never get that word, Speaker 3 right? Actually, I started dancing in the early 90s, my very first judging competition was Christmas and Dixie because one of my Speaker 1 best friend's was Lisa West and she ended up being short adjudged and I was there helping her Speaker 3 and she said, hey you want to learn how to judge. So I did, it was crazy. Speaker 2 And that The country right? Not Speaker 3 West Coast was country. Actually started in country, okay? Speaker 1 Started in line dancing, believe it or not and then went to a bar and wanted to dance with the cute guys, so I Speaker 3 learned how to defuse that. And of course, the first song that came on was a waltz Speaker 1 and I had already asked the guy to dance but, Speaker 3 you know, I learned how to follow. So it worked out okay. Yeah. And then I danced a dance masters with both bars and Rex. Speaker 2 Bones. Uh-huh. Speaker 3 So and then an angel and I started Speaker 1 competing swing in 99 but you know I had dabbled in it here and there before then Speaker 2 I'm sorry. Did I Angel do country before? Speaker 3 No, he did do a country show Speaker 1 Once with me because I made Speaker 2 him I was gonna say, it sounds like there's a caveat. Yeah. But this yeah that's party. So he was he was from celsa or hustle or or was he West Coast fast? If Speaker 3 he was Ballroom, okay? He did the heated International Speaker 1 Latin and written it Rhythm. He did nine Speaker 3 dance and 10 Speaker 1 dance both so yeah. When I met him he was like this really big deal in in the Gold Room community and I was nothing and Speaker 3 quite quite intimidated, but we met in the Middle with swing and Speaker 1 hustle. That's Speaker 2 awesome. That's cool. So I'm gonna jump straight into one of the questions online. Because you mentioned it. So this will be one of those podcasts. I think it's going to jump around, but all the judges in west coast swing and you could answer this as a chief judge or just someone that knows West Coast Swing. Do they all have some sort of training before they judge? Now I know the answer to this but I want your answer and I can't remember who it was that asked this, but they said is, what do they have to do to be a Speaker 3 judge? Um, they all have some sort of Speaker 1 training. Yes, Speaker 2 funding, to do you mean training as in Dance Training or training to Speaker 3 judge? They all have Dance Training. Not, all of them have training to judge. I do a lot of the judges now have been apprenticed that has been Apprentice judges. Especially the ones who came up through All-Star and stuff. So Speaker 1 I have mentored, lots and lots of people. People who were judging right now as far as the organization of Speaker 3 judging. I think that the West Speaker 1 Coast Swing Community Values, their dance ability and equates that to whether they are good judges or not. And Speaker 3 so, the event director chooses the Speaker 2 judges. Okay. Do you have a say in that as a chief judge? Do you would an event director of a say to you? Hey, do you think so? And so would be good or have you had experience with this? Judge Speaker 3 some of the smaller events will Speaker 1 Yes the larger events don't okay, larger events, they hire based on what they need Speaker 3 for their event. And then sometimes sometimes I will have a choice and I can I can create the judges schedule based on who I Speaker 1 think will be the most efficient and effective in what division is because most people don't know that novice is definitely the hardest division to judge. Yeah, you know, I don't like having an experienced judges judge. Novice if I can help Speaker 2 it, and why is novice the Turkish division to judge. Speaker 3 I think that you ask good questions going. Speaker 2 This is the first one where I'm like, oh that now I'm asking stuff, I don't know either, like, I don't have Speaker 3 well, I think a novice division, you get, you have such Speaker 1 a huge range of abilities. You have, Speaker 3 you have the people who have a ton of Dance Experience, but I've never danced West Coast Swing, and they're jumping and Speaker 1 novice, you have the people who have danced forever and Speaker 3 And you have the people who are, whose friends think they're decent or like? No, no. You should go ahead, dance, novice, you'll be great and they're really not, or they're scared to death, you know? So I think Speaker 1 that, Speaker 3 I think that there are so many if you're judging based on what you want to see Speaker 1 on the floor. Speaker 3 There are so many people doing different things that you do not want to see. Yes. So it levels the playing field what Speaker 1 makes, which makes it much more difficult? Alt to Speaker 2 choose. Yes. Nathan who doesn't and unfortunately, to go back to what you said about getting like efficient judges and judges that know their stuff. Unfortunately, I guess a lot of the time that doesn't happen in novice is actually the lower level judges for want of a better word that get bumped onto novice and then as it goes up, two All-Stars we bring in Jordan and tap to judge All-Stars, you know. So and I'm not saying a higher level dancers are the better judges but it does seem. I feel like sometimes I'm fairly novice. You get like a brand-new All-Stars to come in and judge. Speaker 3 That's true. And that is also why to toot my own horn. You need a chief judge who can also teach Speaker 1 and Mentor your judges Speaker 3 because not they don't always know. They don't always know how to organize their thoughts in order to get them out onto a piece Speaker 1 of paper or into a tablet to where they can rank. What they're seeing Speaker 2 appropriately. Yes, yeah. You as a chief judge, as I say, I'm gonna jump all over the place. So I'll just say as a chief judge or as a joke. How much advice do you give to your judges? Obviously, I've worked for you as an MC and I've always loved the transparency of your decisions to me, where you go. Hey, we're doing this gland because of this, and I like that as opposed to we're doing this off, you go go and say on the mic, you give me a chance to understand it. How much advice do you give to judges at the beginning of a weekend? Like what do you tell them? And what don't you Tell them what you need to tell them. Speaker 1 Well, Speaker 3 it is my opinion that as a chief judge, I am there to carry out the event director's vision for their Speaker 1 competitions. Speaker 3 So I am really an agent of the event Speaker 1 directors, every Speaker 3 every competition has its own style and its own way of doing things WS, D, c-- controls, the Jack and Jill's. So Speaker 1 I'm going by whatever they have Speaker 3 most recently. Speaker 1 Written. Speaker 3 And so a lot of times I as a whole, I will remind my judges about what the event is about. If the event really, I'm doing an event that if I'm doing an event, that cares more about Speaker 1 the traditional Speaker 3 walk. Walk triple triple I'm going to put that out there. You know, say hey it's novice division, timing matters, you know. It's different with tablets than it was with paper Speaker 1 because I don't have A chance to say are you Speaker 3 sure this is what you want you know because it all just goes through and I don't I don't get my hands on it as much. I also make sure that the judges know how many songs they had ahead of time so they know how to a lot their time. I make sure that they have enough time. If they need another song, if they're not finished, Speaker 1 I would rather the dancers get a little more tired but everybody gets seen. Speaker 2 Yes, yes. Yeah. Speaker 3 So I would say that, I don't say a whole lot to my more experienced judges and I meant or the newer judges as much as Speaker 2 they need. Yeah, yeah. I always remember. I actually, I think it was my cool Kim said that, obviously, that chief judge kind of sends everyone off in a direction. At the beginning of the weekend, all the judges off and I thought I don't remember that too many times, like, we're like they get everyone together and it's like If you go, you know, judges meeting but that really would be good if that was a set thing every event where it was like we got to kind of have a powwow before and potentially afterwards. But then I also remember an event a few years ago, an event director did that and ahead judge did it, did it? And all the high-level dancers are really peed off because I like don't tell us how to judge. So I'm like, well, you can't win. So you can't win with milk baby, Speaker 3 laughs. So yeah, I just tend to I tend to do suggestions and reminders. I never tell anyone. One had a judge because that is not my Speaker 1 job. Uh-huh. Speaker 3 It is the event director's job to hire Speaker 1 people that they think will be good judges for their contests. Yeah. Speaker 3 But I do, I will say, hey guys remember this is a more traditional contest. They're going to play more Blues so judge accordingly. Yeah. Well, tell them how to judge, but I'll just be like, you know, hey, this contest there's no dress requirements. Nobody cares here. It's much more. Speaker 1 Casual You don't like jeans and a t-shirt. You're going to have to get over it for this weekend? Yeah. You know. Speaker 3 So things like that. I will kind of remind them as a whole and I'll usually do it five minutes before we go out. If there's no, if there's no General judges meeting. Yeah. But yeah, then I try. Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, I have to rely on the expertise that they have. Speaker 3 Yeah. And but we will go over. If I see at the end of the weekend, that one judge or two judges were Speaker 1 completely off all weekend. Long have no idea what they were looking at. I will let the event director know that might be someone that they may or may not want not necessarily as a teacher or as a competitor at their event but maybe maybe putting them where they were as a judge, wasn't the best choice. Speaker 2 Yes. So that was actually my question so you do review the scores. You look through maybe for any outliers and would you speak? Would you ever speak to a judge? And say, hey, by the way, your scores was different Like, would you chat to them about it or or has that ever happened, has ever? Come Speaker 3 up? It has, I've done that with newer judges because truly, I don't care if you had somebody in last place that everybody else hasn't had in first, if you know why you had them in last place, if you can defend that you are a staunch. I want everybody to walk forward with a totally din, a straight leg on one. And this person didn't do that. Well, then fine. Yeah, that's your opinion. And that's what you're being paid for your good. And if you were Like yeah, I didn't finish and I couldn't see everybody. Well then that's a Speaker 2 problem. Yes. Yeah. I mean I've said that before I that would be enough for me to go forward with West Coast Swing and think it was improving. If on that I got a phone call from you on the Monday and said, hey Glenn, like what why was this? And I could say it's like, Susan and I have the argument we think similarly and every so often there's a first and a 13th and then we'll have a discussion over it and we both can say our point and we don't have to necessarily agree. But at least there was a In an invalidation for that whereas I think when we don't have to validate it, that's where there's a problem because it stops there's no consequence to the judges doing certain Speaker 3 things, right? Well then I always yeah so I check I check my judges and I also checked the computer so and a lot of cheat judges don't do this. A lot of Chief Judges Speaker 1 now or Court more Speaker 3 contests coordinators than she judges. I have to judge all of the Jack and Jill preliminaries. If it's a tablet system, I don't judge with Speaker 1 the Oils because there probably won't be a tie. Speaker 3 There's so many tiebreakers in place that my score won't Speaker 2 count so your prelims because of tiebreakers so your scores don't count unless there's a Speaker 1 tie-break correct. Speaker 3 Okay and so if when we're looking for natural breaks, if I Speaker 1 have you know Speaker 3 and I don't do it for semis because I don't need an even number to come back for semis. It's just another prelim. I do it from whatever the contest is right before the finals, so that we can get an even Or, you know, because I could have 13 with solid. Yes, it is for followers and then, you know, 20 solid yeses for leaders will, I can have that. So then what they do, because the chief judge Speaker 1 has to be extraordinarily opinionated, as well as work with the MC and run the Speaker 3 contests. I judge both sides. So I judge both leaders and followers in the same amount of time Speaker 1 that my judges are judging one side or the other, wow. Speaker 3 But then, my, Scores will be Speaker 1 added in where there's the tie, so Speaker 3 couples 13 to 20. My scores will get added in for that, and that Speaker 1 will be the tiebreaking. Give me, however, many I need to make it even to come back for finals. Speaker 2 So, that seems like a good segue, then you're judging crazy fast, you're looking around leaders and followers. So what, how do you divide your divisions? Novice intermediate Advance. What you're looking for. So now let's jump to the a normal podcast of what Joe Judges want. What do you look for in West Coast? Swing. Watch your your standards, that you expect. I know there aren't standards, but, you know, talk to me about what, what Debbie wants. Well, I definitely have standards and I'm extraordinarily opinionated. Speaker 3 I was taught Years Ago by the great Jack Carrie, how to Speaker 1 judge as they head judge and I kept that back, then this was mid 2000's. I kept that going in when I'm a regular judge because I just like the system Speaker 3 and I treat, I give everybody a number. Speaker 1 So, you know, 90 to 180 and Speaker 3 90 90 to Hundred has a specific skill set that I'm looking Speaker 1 for for each division, 80 to 90. Speaker 3 They have that skill Speaker 1 set 70 to 80. 70 80 is the base of what I expect for whatever division it is. Speaker 3 Okay. 80 to 90 is base. Plus 90 to 100. It's yeah, I could see you in that next division Speaker 1 up. Okay. You Speaker 3 know. So and then, you Speaker 1 know, if it's a no, then it's just below Speaker 3 that. Yeah, it's so What that does is it allows me to compare Speaker 1 all of the competitors Speaker 3 to my scale as opposed to having to compare them to each other. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I think that was great. I is that a lot of Judges have said that, well, I scan the room first and I pick a base from the room and that is time consuming inner heat that maybe doesn't, you don't have time to do that. Speaker 3 So that's yeah. And I don't do that because with relative placement, it doesn't matter in my opinion, it really doesn't matter if you have. If you have a standard scale I have gone to competitions where my scale has been from Speaker 1 50 to 80. Yeah. Speaker 3 You know as opposed to 70 to Speaker 1 100 it just Speaker 3 depends on the scale. So newcomers. You know? And then and it's layered also. So newcomers I expect at Speaker 1 that, you know, 70 to Speaker 3 80. I expect them to be on time, I expect them to leave Speaker 1 Basic patterns. Yeah, Speaker 3 because of their entering a contest. They should know how to do those things. Yeah, you know, I expect them to have a good Speaker 1 connection with their Partners. Yeah. Speaker 3 And that's about all I'm expecting for the 72 80s. You know, and what I expect for newcomer in my 80 to 90. 90 to 100, is probably what I expect as Speaker 1 my base, my 70 to 80 in novice, intermediate, Advanced ulcers, you know, It gets it Speaker 3 gets more and more Speaker 1 layered as it goes up. Speaker 3 So my 94 newcomers Speaker 1 definitely different than what I expect from my 92. All In All Speaker 2 Stars. Yeah, yeah, so talk to me about, let's go, let's start, you kind of said newcomer so novice what stuff do you like when you say Connection in novice? What's a good connection to you? How do you see connection? You know what, what do you look for in a Speaker 3 couple? I as a leader I look for a stable connection. One that isn't moving much one that communicates only what they want to lead. Uh-huh. Not just you know vague whatever. I look for a communication that a connection that doesn't pull the follower out before the followers, ready to walk. Uh-huh. Not necessarily the leader. The leader can step back on on sticks without affecting their follower. They the, you know, so as far as a followers connection goes, I expect that Speaker 1 connection to be and I'm Speaker 3 talking base. I don't always get what I expect but, you know, this is what I would like. I expect the connection to be flexible. I expect the follower to follow. Uh-huh, I'm not saying that it has to be basic because my 92 100's are going to accentuate, the music, they're going to play with in what they're given is. Especially in a novice division. Yeah. So but I don't want to see them pulling hard on the leader, I don't want to see that the leaders Speaker 1 taking 0 1 because the followers so heavy that they can't Speaker 3 move. So there is caught even though we're judging them as Speaker 1 individuals, there still is cause and effect that we look at. Speaker 2 Yeah, and and then, obviously, that follows through intermediate Advanced. Also you just expect more from that concept as it were. So like the connection like with the, how you Describe connection, you're just being a bit, meaner in your judging or a bit more like how does it work? Speaker 3 Upwards. Working upwards. So so let's say for a novice competitor, I'm not expecting them Speaker 1 to lead, any kind of syncopations or any kind of musicality, okay. Um Speaker 3 I don't that's icing on the cake if I get that. But that's not what I'm expecting. I Speaker 1 expect that from Advanced All-Star Champions, Speaker 3 I really do and and really my top tier of advanced. Not even by lower-tier, you know, my lower tier of advanced I want you to hit the phrase changes, you know, lower-tier Advanced ever tear in her. Idiot. But I'm not expecting the minutiae of musicality that I Speaker 1 do from an All-Star. Speaker 2 Yeah, that makes sense. And what about the question we've had a lot. There's two questions that have come in most throughout the months. We've been doing this straight legs for followers. What do you think about that walking on 12 July? Do you have a yes or a? No, on the two First Steps striking with a straight leg, get into a straight leg. What do you think? I think that you can never be wrong with a straight leg. Oh yeah, I like that. Speaker 3 I think you can. I think you can upset several of your judges with a bent leg. I think that you will never ever upset anyone with a straight leg. Speaker 2 Yeah. And you know, you can upset your partner with a bent leg because it's easier to be heavy. I always Speaker 3 need to be heavy, a bent leg more than likely. You'll be split weight instead of on one foot to the other. So I think a bent leg walk causes a lot of issues and I think that people see upper-level dancers who don't have issues Speaker 1 with weight changes and who know how to quickly get their weight from one foot to the other on a bent Speaker 3 leg especially during a more contemporary Speaker 1 like a hip-hop or a more Speaker 3 pop kind of song, they're going to be more into their knees but I think the lower levels Speaker 1 equate that as a basic as opposed to as a styling. Yes you watch Victoria? No, she's come up. A bunch of times on your Speaker 3 podcasts. Yeah. But if you watch her, when it's, when it's definitely. Speaker 1 More of a thunka thunka kind of Speaker 3 song. She's going to be more in her knees, but she is never in between her feet and then she'll stand up. She's not, she's not in her knees all the time, right? So, so I think that the key to any level is to Speaker 1 have texture and fluctuation in your Dancing. Speaker 2 Yeah. And then the same same question, four triples. I I say this every time where I've had students come back to me and the judge said we didn't do enough triples and I guess I Sometimes it's a cop-out but I'd love to know your opinion. Speaker 3 I think. Yeah it's the same answer. I think you can never go wrong with a triple step. Uh-huh. Speaker 1 You know and Speaker 3 weather. I think a novice, I mean, you don't have, you can still do a triple step with with, Speaker 1 you know, a weight change. And not Speaker 3 in a not, it be basic. You can, you can twist your body, you can move your feet in different ways and still show that triple Speaker 1 step. Speaker 3 You have to be really good for me to Speaker 1 excuse that you're not doing a triple step and there has to be the Rhythm coming from somewhere Speaker 2 else. Aha? That makes sense. Speaker 1 Yeah, and novice, yeah, texture. Speaker 3 I want to know that you can do the triple step before I let you not do it. Yeah. Speaker 2 Okay, I like that. So then before we had some questions sent in I want to jump to those but before that, we spoke about high heels. So I would love your opinion on clothing. Being and shoes in a West Coast, Swing competitions, I think that there. Speaker 3 I'm choosing my words wisely right now. For those of you who can't see my face, I think that that there there are outfits that are more flattering for Speaker 1 both men and women Speaker 3 regardless of what role you're doing? The not. So I think that the key is to have a good honest. Friend, who will tell you if something is flattering on your body? Also, remembering that flowy, outfits, tend to look better on your legs for West Coast. Swing Is our leg lines are not always pretty and West Coast Swing. So something that that Speaker 1 isn't a straight legging with a boot Speaker 3 might be better if you're going to wear a sixth straight legging and a boot, you better have Speaker 1 perfect knees Speaker 3 and you better be able to use your entire foot, Speaker 1 because Speaker 3 most people who Speaker 1 don't wear dance, shoes, traditional dance shoes sandals or Oxford's or something, that is flexible. They look very flat footed when they dance. Speaker 3 So and I say most I'm talking, you know newcomers Speaker 1 through advanced even. Yeah. Speaker 3 And to really learn how to Speaker 1 use that foot. I think proper Footwear is better. Speaker 2 Yeah. And then guys in I mean like a show or a button-up shirt or a t-shirt obviously it mean it can affect the way you move. But do you have an opinion on that? Where you think we should be wearing button-up shirts? Or it depends on the event or what's your view on that? Speaker 3 I like button-up shirts better. I think when your buttons up. You dance buttoned up. Yeah, I just do. I think I think you I think you dress for the job you want. Not the dress, not the job. You have. Uh-huh. So I think that if you want to dance in all-stars, Speaker 1 part of the way or Champions part of the way to get there is to drance dress. Well Speaker 3 and I think That again you can never go wrong by being slightly Speaker 1 overdressed. Yeah never absolutely. Never go wrong by wearing pants and a button up or a nice Speaker 2 shirt. Yeah, I agree. I don't is completely different in nice night what I would say. Nice clothes, you know like a show or a vest and a tie. It just makes me dance come and it makes me dance how I want swing to be done if that Speaker 3 makes. Yeah it does. Definitely, everybody does. Yeah everybody dance Speaker 2 better. Yeah. Okay, so we're going to jump to some questions. We'll probably do a couple of questions. Oh Suma you know Sumer was saying I do know cement so she actually said most judges had done judging in the first song of a heat but I don't know that that's true. So she said do you ever change your scores due to something you see in the second or the third song? So I mean Speaker 3 obviously that question and I don't I don't think that that's true. I haven't I in my experience that hasn't been true if I say Speaker 1 See you in the first song, then I might be done with you in the first song. Yeah. But I won't be done with the division as a whole, yes, in the first song, unless it's very small. Yeah. Speaker 3 But even when it is very small, I still watch through the second and third song. Usually the second Speaker 1 song is the one that separates the upper and the lower on my ballot. Speaker 3 Yeah not always but a lot of times it is it's usually slower or its blues or something. That's a little more challenging of The song. Yeah, so so it can really separate Speaker 1 people that are on the bubble for me Speaker 3 and do I go back most definitely I'll go back it's it's easier with paper to go back because you can make a little notation on the side then with the tablet but no I will definitely if I have someone that I'm not quite sure about I'll Speaker 1 watch them with a different partner to see if they're the same dancer or not. Speaker 2 Yeah, interesting and this is an interesting question and this is probably Lee something that you can really answer well as a chief judge. And I'll tell a quick story about this. So I competed a few weekends ago in an Invitational and the followers judged. And I just know that the champion scores don't really get posted and Invitational scores, don't really get post. I just, that's what I expect and a newer. Dancer went in the staff Group, after it's a Facebook group and said, Hey, where's the Invitational scores? And they put them into the group and I said Susan. Oh, isn't that funny? Like a newer dancer doesn't realize that Written rule as it were for like because we just don't I guess my opinion on my presumption is like I don't really want to see what my friends and peers are where they're putting is just not when it is not worth the stress or the drama or that, you know, it, let's just move on. But we had a question about this analyzing judges scores is valuable in light of that wire Champion scores often not posted for general public and they're not posted for us normally either as Champion. So why is that it was? I right? Just thinking it's just easier, you know, it's less politics or or what is the reasoning or is there a reason or is it just an Unwritten rule? Speaker 3 Well, I can tell you the original reason as those of us who have been around a minute and a half, looking at my dates and like, crap, it's been 30 years, how did that happen? That's too young for it to be 30 Speaker 2 years. I was like, you never ask a woman their age, but it seems even root of two. How long have you been dancing? Because Speaker 3 it's no, no. Back in the day, when I first started judging Speaker 1 20, plus odd years Speaker 3 ago, any Hirsch was almost always the chief judge and she would even we when we were dancing, she would never post the scores. She always had a binder off to the side. That had our scores that we could go. Look at them. This is back when they were paper, Speaker 1 you Speaker 3 know, binder off to the side and I asked her one time this was in the early Speaker 1 2000s and And she said that this is the Champions job and that they're worth evident as a dancer or as a teacher is not based on three minutes and five people deciding whether they're good or not that day. Uh-huh. And so she didn't want the scores to affect that Champions business. Yeah, yeah, based on a small snippet of time, Speaker 3 And I've always agreed with that, so I will never ever post as a chief said. It's usually the Chief Judges call. I will never Speaker 1 post Champions or Invitational scores everything in any Speaker 3 division, classic showcase you guys are on your own, you put it out there, you know, but no, as far as far as something that you didn't get to train and practice specifically Speaker 1 for like Jack and Jill are strictly swing, I'll never put those scores out. Speaker 2 That's pretty, I did. I never even thought of that, that's awesome to have that insight and then I'm imagining It's just carried on, probably rightly in my opinion that that because I love that that reasoning just carried on. And it's probably never been looked at or the people like you know, it still. But as I say, the newer generation, this, this particular dancer message, like where's our scores, you know and it was enthusiasm, it wasn't negativity or, you know, it was just the new, the new enthused All-Stars that got to an Invitational for the first ever time like. And and Speaker 3 they can always ask, they can always ask the head judge and I Speaker 1 always will, we'll give them this Speaker 3 Give them their Speaker 1 scores. Yeah. Yeah, you know, Speaker 3 yeah. But what you said also about the whole can I, can I talk about the whole analyzing the scores thing? That's, yes, gotten worse in the last seven, eight years or so. Speaker 1 Um, Speaker 3 I hear that a lot that they analyze the scores, they analyze, how a judge scores them from one event to the next. But I don't think I don't think that it's Very Speaker 1 scientific. In that, Speaker 3 I don't really think that you gain any any valuable Speaker 1 information from Speaker 3 that because nothing is the same from contest to contest. Unless you know, you didn't sleep the same. You didn't eat the same. You didn't dress the same. You didn't get the same partner, you didn't get the same dance floor, not the same judges, not the same partner, not the same song, not the same. Anything, there's there's no control group in order to base those evaluations on, Now if one judge consistently scores you lower, then you might be doing something for me that puts you in my 60, to 70 group, Speaker 1 so to speak. But Speaker 3 again, unless Speaker 1 I'm judging you next competition, Speaker 3 stick with your coaches stick with your coaches that see you day in and day out, show them, show them the videos because that's going to give you or take a private lesson, if it really matters to you that much. But but yeah, so Jack and Jill's Speaker 1 should be more for experience than replacement, do it for the fun of it because there's Speaker 3 no, there's no way every anything is going to be the same from contest a contest. Speaker 2 Yeah, I always say it's designed to be unfair. You don't know your partner, you don't know the music. You don't know your space on the floor. Like, that's the point of it and if we think it's going to be any different will be disappointed. Great. Yeah, it's funny. You say that Susan never looks at scores ever. I remember when she I want the open and I said, hey, I saw this quote, she goes, don't tell me like, I don't want to know, you know, like that. It's only setting yourself up to either be slightly disappointed or slight, you know, it's just like what is, there's no need for that at that point. You know, whether you've done poorly or you've done exceptionally well Speaker 3 Angels, the same way I did every now and then, when I was shocked by the scores. Yes. You know, sometimes you place where exactly where you think you're going to, but I, Susan, an angel alike artists and they're not competitors even though they're very competitive by nature Speaker 1 but Speaker 3 but other people judging what they do is not of value to Speaker 2 them. Yeah that made that that is it. That is it that something? So so talk to me. You're in Austin. Here we were probably 15 minutes away, but we're on Zoom together and there was no see what else you doing. Where can people find you event wise and what's next for you this Speaker 3 year? Stephen is going to be novice Invitational in Houston. A Speaker 1 cool March 20, something Speaker 3 I am about to Speaker 1 start teaching for Austin, Westie Academy. They're going to be doing level one Speaker 3 and two classes, I'm teaching both of those classes for them. It's at the body Collective on Thursday nights. Oh, Speaker 2 cool. And anyone it's not based not just college or it's not. Anyone can go to that, Speaker 3 anyone can go and I highly recommend that if you're interested in technique, Speaker 1 To come and Speaker 3 you're above level 1 and 2 to come. Anyway, it will help. Speaker 1 I always I teach a lot of technique. It's my favorite thing. Speaker 3 So I teach a lot of technique, even at Speaker 1 the lower levels because eventually they'll get it right? So Speaker 3 so at least they've heard it because everything is layers of learning. So if you hear it as a novice, Speaker 1 then in advanced it, you're like, oh yeah, I've heard that before and you can catch on a lot faster. Yes. Speaker 3 Still or come and do opposite role, you know, come and try something Speaker 2 new. That sounds great. I'll post the information about that with this so people know where to find out where to find you and it's been awesome. Speaking to you it's been such a different angle which has been super fun. Speaker 3 Good. All right. Thanks Glen. I appreciate us finally, getting Speaker 2 together for the yeah. Thank you for your time. What judges want to thank you so much for listening Westie world that was an awesome interview. A huge. Thank you to all of our guests and we will be back next Wednesday.