S2 E5 Control and communication - a conversation with Hungarian dressage rider, Krisztina Szucs

I strongly believe that cultural change will happen if we involve the use into the process. So in my environmental work I'm dealing with environmental education and involving 8,000 children. Can they educate them how to be more friendly with yours? And in the same way you need to involve the next generation, first of all, share some good role models in harmonious writing from the dressage, from the jumping and from the racing. And we need to share those good examples to get their imagination. And as a second staff, they need to practice the same. So now I have a pony team. They are competing a bit less in amateur competitions in Hungary. We are giving some presentations or shows, quadrilles, a bit less with the ponies and with my horses. And it is possible. We are so lucky this week to have Christina Souks. But thank you so much for joining us. Christina is a dressage writer from Hungary. So she is an interesting lady who I thought would be have some great things to share with us about her journey to writing high-level dressage bit-free. So welcome, Christina. And thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much, Karen. It's really nice to be here with you and happy to share my story with everybody. So one of the things that we're always curious about on changing rain is one or two pivotal moments in our guest's journey to where they are today. So is there a couple of things that were really key to your journey that you would like to share with us? Yes. Actually, I'm living in Hungary, Budapest, with my family, together with my four kids, my husband, with my animals. And I have my first degree in environmental studies, environmental engineering. And at the same time, I am a qualified dressage writer and trainer and passionate about horse welfare. And now I feel that there are some things or similarities between environmental studies and the sustainability challenge that we have and horse welfare in sport, because both have a common goal of creating ethical and balanced systems and viable and long-term solutions. And at the same time, it requires some changes, cultural changes and ethical standards and consideration of well-being human and horses. So it's really interesting for me that my two degrees larring together. From the beginning, it was so important to me to focus on the objective of dressage, because if you like to check this definition in the FEI rulebook, you'll still find that the objective of dressage is trained the horse into a happy athlete through harmonious education. And it was always very important to me. But in my use, I have been focusing on competitions and get some results, some gold medals in youth team championships or young national championships. But during the time, when I have been home with my four kids, they and my environmental experiences gave me a fresh perspective. So now I'm focusing more on harmony with my horses and the welfare of the horse during my work. So the rules of dressage, as far as I know, is that riders need to compete with a bit. So was what was it that triggered you to sort of think, hang on a minute, I think I'm going to try riding my horse bit free. Yes, the basically the dressage is a very traditional sport and kind of the essence of the dressage or the core communication tool or refinement communication tool within the dressage is the bit. So when I started to ride bit less, it had two reasons. One was caused by an accident because my horse, who I competed with before, he had a bad accident. Because of bad training practices, it won't train by me. And he was rearing and falling back on his spine and injured. So I couldn't, after getting back to the horse, I couldn't follow this pass. And I started to ride another horse who had some bad experiences with the bit. So I wasn't able to communicate with her through the bit. So I tried to find another solution. And it was a real challenge for me to start riding bit less. But it really helped me to help this horse out and improve her. And to improve in the same time, my communication skills. So I feel, I feel that every case is different. So every horse is different and every rider is different. And that's why I call my, my new way to the horsey bird into the horsey bird, my way to dressage, because I feel that everybody has to find the, the unique way for her, or him or her with her horse within the dressage bird. Yeah. So every case is different. I think that's so fascinating that you've focused on the fact that it's very personalized and it's very unique for each rider and, and each horse. Because in some ways, that's a little bit different to the traditional approach, which sort of suggests maybe there's a correct way. And then there's other ways to do things with a horse. So it's kind of interesting that you've adopted this really individualized approach. One of the things that often comes up when there are conversations about bit free and often those conversations can be quite animated is the issue of safety. Do you, what is your experience of riding bit free and what are your thoughts about the, you know, the safety aspects of riding a horse bit free? Yeah. If you, if you start to ride your horse bit free, you will find some changes in your riding. And, and those changes are, are both from the horse's perspective and from the rider's perspective. And from the, from the rider's perspective, it's very different that from, from a control based training, you should, you should change your point of view. And you should focus on communication and, and improve the basic pillars, your, your connection with your horse, and the clarity of these aspects. So if you follow all these, then I can tell you that ride bit free is can be safe. But it depends because some factors are influencing the safety in bit free riding. And one factor is the horse is trading and temperament. So it depends on the training level of the horse of a trained horse. It really responds to the reliable, reliable way to the voice commands to the seat and to the leg ads. And it's typically safer to ride with three with all these. And also the proper groundwork is very essential to ensure the horse understanding on these signs. And also from a poor horse's perspective. It depends on the temperament of the horse, because some horses with the comb and predictable temperament are, are generally safer to ride without the bit. Horses are naturally more reactive or nervous. And might require additional training before transitioning to bit free riding. So we need to be prepared for that. And as I told you from the rider's perspective, the rider should have the proper experience level, good foundation and horsemanship and gone control over the balance of their body and the clarity of the ads to feel more confident. And, and also they need to improve the communication skills effectively through the seat, leg and, and rain ads, because it's very important in bit free riding. Also, there are, there are some factors of the safety that are linked to the equipment. So you need to, to pick and choose the right bitless bridle, because the type of the bitless bridles can be back to safety. Some bridles are like the side pulls or the cross unders are generally considered as more suitable for horses and more gentle. By mechanical hackamores, for example, or rope halters can expert more pressure and require careful handling during the ride. And also need to be sure that those bridles are properly fitted and are, are comfortable for the horse, because discomfort or stress can be also coming from the bit, I can tell you, but the comfort level can, can define the level of safety. And if you like to ride bit less, you need to follow step by step transition and be, be prepared for unexpected situations. But first it's better to start it in a controlled environment in a safe place and close such like an arena or round pan, because it helps the horse and the rider to feel more secure during the transition. Yeah. So if you'd like to summarize all these, I would like to recall the framework of dressage naturally, of current role that I do like, and I could recommend to every riders to, if you, if you'd like to, to try bit less, because they're within dressage nature, we're speaking about physical, mental and emotional pillars of the riding. And if you, if you'd like to check the safety level, you should check all those pillars regarding the horse and the rider. Can I ask you, Christina, how long typically, you know, let's say we have a horse who has the right temperament and is well trained and how long would that transition take? It depends. There are some horses who are, who really love to be ridden bit less. So I should speak about some, some positive changes that you can recognize for the first time. So, so my quick answer is it may happen that you put a bit less bridal on your horse and it will work if you have the right seat, the clear communication and the good, good contact with that between your her. But it's very usual that the horse has an improved comfort level, because it has really used mouse discomfort without the bit. They don't have irritation in their mouse and it can lead to relaxed and billing attitudes. And also they are in a better comfort level. So they are more happy. So horses often show signs of being more content such as, like, you know, relaxed joes or softer eyes and relaxed overall presence. Bitless briders can also help you to have a better communication and improve your partnership with your horse. But it all takes some more time if you didn't work on those pillars before. And as I also felt with my horses in some cases, so really there are some horses like Bel Dimanche, my horse, who I compete with now. So she has less tension without the bit and better confidence level. And really I recognize the reduced resistance in some exercises. So it may happen that it will, it will take only a few time. But if in other cases there are some challenges, and you need some adjustments if you start using bitless equipment, because it may happen that initially it's really confusing for the horse. They don't understand the signs. And this new form of pressure and communication is not clear for them. So you can build up those signs from the ground, so you need to improve those signs from the ground work or in hand work. So you cannot be so precise without the bit, and maybe you need to avoid some some situations with the horse in the beginning. And there is a potential of increase the sensitivity because of the equipment, the pressure points, because different areas of the horses head can be sensitive, like the nose or the cheeks. So some horses may be more sensitive of these pressure points and require careful adjustment. And in some other cases, you pick an equipment like a bitless bridle, and your horses doesn't like it. So in those cases, you need to be patient and need to find another and try another until the point when you find the right one, and where you find that the horse is feeling better and really enjoy the process. So every horse and every horse and rider pairs are different, like two dancing pairs in dressages, very similar to dance. I'm not a rider, Christina. So I mean, I've only the basic, basic knowledge, you know, and to me, the bit will seem like an absolutely indispensable part of the tack. And then I suppose my other thought processes, if I can control my horse with the simple bit, well, then you escalate the bit to a stronger bit. And I, to my shame, I don't know how some of them work, but I know that there are, you know, stronger, stronger bits you could use. And from what you say, it sounds like generally people go from bit riding to bit free. Are there situations where people start their horses bit free from the very beginning? Sure. There are many, many cases when, when I work with young horses, bit less, it is possible. So you should use the same pillars. And it is possible. Christina, I've come from a racing background. That's, that's my life. And I'm just thinking, is there any situation in which bit free riding could happen in racing? You know, dressage is a controlled movement, partnership, harmonious partnership between horse and rider within a confined area. Racing is, is galloping at full speed or control speed and then full speed as needed. Is there any scenario in which bit free riding could be, could be incorporated into racing? See, if you check the homepage of Bird Bitless Association, they are a cool community for collecting good examples of bit less ridings. You will be able to find some cases when bit less riders been racing bit less. And just last week, I found a picture of a lady who've been racing bridaless. So there are some examples. I'm not a racing person. So you, you should know about, you should know more about that. But there are always some examples if the rules permit that to, to check those situations. That leads on perfectly to my, to my next question because I have sat on lots of boards and committees within racing and I know how hard it is to change things. And I think particularly when there's any question that safety might be, might be at, at issue. As I understand the FEI rules of dressage to compete, you must use a bit and then at the highest level, it must be a double bridal. But you are able to compete bit free in Hungary. And I'm just wondering how things are evolving in that space. Dressage is a really high regulated equestrian discipline. And we still cannot compete with less in Hungary, neither. So as I know, the only country you can do this is the Netherlands. But I can see some, some changes. So, so some, the change, changes are happening step by step. And I really enjoy being part of this, being part, part of this process. So what I can see is there is, there is a growing interest in, in bit less riding. But in most of the cases, bit less riders are not in a good position because they have this mission and they will like to follow their, their path on that. But in, in most of the cases, other riders are so skeptical about that and not supporting that it can be a hard situation. I can share with you my, my experience on that. Because when I came back to the horsey world and start to compete and to train again, I got back a lot of positive energy from my youth ages friends. They supported my initiatives. And also it gave me a lot of strength that the chairman of the former Hungarian dressage committee, Viktor Curtis, was on my side. And as a private person, he supported me. And I could hold the first bit less workshop with his support. And now, yeah, so my way to dressage would not be able to, to improve as without, without that. And also he seems to be supportive regarding the rule changes. And I'm in the process to negotiate with the dressage committee on changing the rules in Hungary. And in the same time, I'm take part of a bit less dressage competitions, but not as competitor, but I'm giving like shows or demonstration doing the same high level dressage elements without a bit to give you some, give an example that it is possible. But I really feel that the role of the local national federations is, is very important. Because in many countries, they are considering the rule changes to potentially allow bitless riders in more formal competition settings. And this involves reviewing the existing rules, conducting some resorts, consulting experts and so on. So it is really, really complex, the process itself. But I can see some positive changes. And I really, really believe that it will happen in the upcoming few years that we are going to be able to compete bit less like, like we can do it at another lens. I'm curious, Christina, do you have any insight into how the Netherlands got the rule changed for bitless in, in the Netherlands? Yes. If you are inspired and would like to go forward, then you need to, to join a community and to build upon this. It's in the same video training and is the same with my mission. So I contacted many, many people who take part of this community. And some of them are from the Netherlands. And I, I collected all the details. I could basically, it had, they had the challenges in the process. First, they need to standardize the equipment. Yeah, to sort the equipment they can use within the competitions. They need to team evolves, evolve some welfare specialists because also bitless bridles can cause, you know, poor fitting goes, those bridles can poor fitting harm for the horses. So you need to, they needed to, to list all those possible challenges. And also they involved the judges because the judging criteria is need to be taken into consideration because they needed to train the judges to ensure consistent scoring in, in bitless address such competitions. So also I joined the community of specialists or experts. I've just joined a conference this year in Paris. It was about horse welfare and organized by the, the collective based in France. And there I could meet the welfare specialists of, of Netherlands who could help me to understand in details the process they followed. What I think is interesting is that we have used bridles and bits for, I suppose, thousands of years. And there were no welfare studies done to say whether this was the right thing to do. They just did it and it evolved, it became the norm tradition and so on. And now we are looking at an alternative. And every, oh, but we need welfare studies to say that this is okay. And yet we know, we know so clearly that there are welfare issues with the use of bits and tight nose bands. And I was speaking to someone the other day and said that you were going to be our guest Christina and they said to me, well, that's the one way of avoiding the blue tongue. If you've no bit. Yes. I feel the, yeah, if you, if you look back to the, to the history of riding a horse, I'm not an expert. So this is my, only my, my, my view that in the beginning they, they should have a good, good contact with a horse to be able to ride them, like Indians or, or historical tribes or something. But then something changed, you know, the war came in and sports came in and our relationship with our horses. And in the same time with the nature, speaking from my environmental sustainability point. So it's changed. And we are not linked together so well. And the problem with the sport is they have really, really good riders, wonderful riders, but the focus on the harmony between the horse and the rider get lost somewhere. And we're focusing on the, the exercises and the perfection of the exercises now. So I strongly believe that I, that we need to have a cultural change here. Like we, we're in the transition to have a cultural change in sustainability and to get back this focus to the, to the sport, because, yeah, it may have a positive impact to the recognition of the horses in average peoples. I just, just on that note, Christina, I, I read a book when I was doing my research and it was, it's called, and apologies, it's, this was, this book was written in the 70s and it's called Man on Horseback. And it talks about ancient tribes riding horses for war, a bit or bridaless and bareback. And these, these, these warrior, these horseback warriors were incredibly successful. And one of the reasons they were successful is because they didn't have bridles and saddles, their horses could perform better. That's the, the theory is because obviously as you go out to war, your horse might start off all nice and fat and shiny, but ends up perhaps a little less fat and shiny towards the end of the war. But if you don't use a saddle, it doesn't really matter because this, you know, it's not like you have to change the, the shape of the saddle to fit the horse who might now be a lot lighter and things. So it's, it's a, it's a really interesting book that was written in the 70s by a fellow from the University of Nebraska. So that's just, that's interesting that you talk about that connection with, you know, sustainability and the earth and, and also that connection between horses and riders and these, these fellows were incredibly successful warriors and clearly had good connections with their horses because they could go out to war without a bridle and without a saddle. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it is, it is. And I am, thank you for, for, uh, yeah, for, for sharing this, this book. I'm really interested in that because in Europe, you know, in the classical schools of art of riding or, or riding, so I used to say that the beats are getting more sever and sever because of the wars, like where guns and other equipments were used, but I'm not an expert on that. So I just have the feeling that you told me that the connection with the horse is, is, is the most important in those cases. Yeah. So these, these fellows were riding before the rise of the Roman Empire. And according to the book, not according to me, but according to the book, they, they viewed the Romans as sissies because they used saddles and bridles. So I don't know if that's true, but that was what was written in the book. I've often thought, you know, back, back in those days, if someone had decided, well, maybe we'll use the ears as, as the means of steering rather than the mouth. You know, who knows? Things might be very different. It probably wouldn't have, it wouldn't have lasted as a, as a technique, but it, you know, it's just one of those things that happened. Someone decided, well, they're quite sensitive in their mouth. Maybe this is the place to put a rope and, you know, we'll attach it some way to the, to the, to the head and then we'll, we'll have reins. But here we are. So that's why it's fascinating to see concepts like bit-free riding being explored because it's just another, another way of looking, looking at it. Yeah. And I think, Christina, you touched on it earlier, like one of the things to prepare for, if you were considering that transition to bit-free riding, is that change in your own, or not, maybe not the change in your approach, but being in, you know, checking in with your own emotions and things like that. I think that's really interesting, you know, an interesting aspect. So you, I think if I've got this correct and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that it's more like changing from controlling the horse to communicating with the horse. Have I got that right? Is that what you were saying earlier? Yeah, you got that completely right. And this is one of the basics of the dressage naturally methodology that I, I'm using in my rides. Our ego is, is a band, is a problem with the communication with the horse. So we need to improve ourselves inside and improve self-awareness to be able to ride better, a bit less. And is that something that children can do? You know, do they have the self-awareness? Is it, is it something that, you know, could you have a bit free riding school? Yes, I strongly believe that in both of my ex, yeah, expertise, that the cultural change will happen if we involve the use into the process. So in my environmental work, I'm dealing with environmental education and involving 8,000 children into our NGO work and educate them how to be more friendly with the horse. We're using like, you know, puppets and toys and playing with them. And in the same way, you need to involve the next generation. And first of all, share some good role models in harmonious riding, from the dressage, from the jumping and for, from the racing. And we need to share those good examples to, to get their imagination. And as a second staff, they, they need to practice the same. So now I have a pony team. They are competing a bit less, not on official competitions, but in like amateur competitions in Hungary. We are giving some presentations or shows, quadrills, a bit less with the ponies and with my horses. And it is, it's possible to ride a bit less. If you're a child, if you have the same pillars, you have the good connection with the horse, you have good communication. And they used to, used to say me that it's more hard to ride a bit less than with a bit. And I believe that it's because of that, what you told me that they need more self-awareness or self-confidence or self-control or all these. In a previous life, I had a very tiny little riding school that I ran here at home. And the, all of the children on the ponies, um, all read, all read bitless. So I didn't actually give them an opportunity to ride with a bit because I felt as young riders who are learning to establish their seat and that they hadn't earned that sort of ability to, to ride with a bit. And, and in fact, what was really interesting is that they just just thought that's just how you rode. They didn't even really pick up too much on the fact. So it was almost like just creating a new normal for them. And it's also that for an adult, in some cases, it's more hard to ride a bit less. Because if you don't use control, you should use playfulness and some creative communication with your horse. And it's easier. It's more easy for the children. So one of the things I like to do, talking of being playful and, and, and having fun with things, one of the things we love to do on Changing Rain is a bit of a hypothetical situation. So would you be happy to run through a little hypothetical with us today, Christina? No problem. It's a game. Yeah. Okay. So in our hypothetical situation today, we are going, we are going to pretend that the FBI is keen to introduce a change to either the way horses are housed or some aspect of their management or some aspect of their riding before the Paris Olympics. So we're being very ambitious in our, in our scenario today. And they want to do this so that they are demonstrating that they are committed to improving horse welfare in equestrian support. So they've recruited you to be their welfare advisor. What would you suggest to give them the biggest booths to horse welfare? What would be your initiative that you would recommend to them? Well, okay. Since I'm a rider and trainer, I would like to focus on like the training part of all these recommendations. And first of all, I would like to advise to the FBI to, to enforce the regulation they already have in training methods also regarding horse welfare. Drogger is also known as hyperflexion or low deep round is training methods that involves forcefully hyperflexing the horse's neck and encouraging around frame, keeping around frame. And there are some critics that this practice cause physical discomfort and even stress for the horse. They can be injured. So implementing the ban of roll current at the yard and then forcing penalties to demonstrate the commitments to the horse welfare. Also limitation of bit severity, we already talked about the bits. There are some bits that are low in dressage competitions, but it would be better if we would use miterbrits such as nettles or prohibitive use of very sever bits. And as a next step to allow the bit free riders to join the competitors, but not this year, but next year maybe. Maybe next year. I would increase the accountability and transparency during the training practices on the ground in the warming up sessions and would ask for a measurement or monitoring of the training sections and the warming up areas by the stewards and have a mandatory reporting of any incidents of abuse or a bad welfare practices. And in the same time, I would like to focus on the education and the training programs to make a change and to educate the trainers and the riders to horse welfare and to the signs of distress or discomfort in horses because it can empower individuals to prioritize horse welfare in their dressage practice. And as a last idea, I would have more focus on the researchers. We already have great researchers at horse welfare in sport, but we need even more sources on that. Investing into research and development initiatives, it can get a focus on equine welfare in the same time and get some some evidences on good practice on biomechanics and behavior and other welfare indicators in the sport. So I strongly believe by implementing those changes I think I could demonstrate the commitment and promoting more welfare focused horse sports of dressage. And I hope it will have the general positive view on those sports. I feel like you're even more greedy than me, Christina. You've got lots of things that you want them to do. It's only six weeks away though. This is just thinking about the practicalities. So you talked about the pillars around bit free riding and the rider, the horse, the equipment and that each horse, each partnership or each has to be looked at as an individual. I could potentially see a scenario where a senior top level rider might say, but for my horse, this individual horse, he needs this particular type of bit because I have assessed him as an individual and I know from my experience that this is the bit that he goes best in. So how do you square the individual approach to riding horses bit free and then this which I think would be pretty standard that people say, I know my horse and therefore I think this supposedly severe bit is actually the right bit for this horse. Yeah, I'm using a bit as well. So for some cases and for some horses, bit is a wonderful tool really. It can be a refinement too. There are some horses, as I told you, who are confused if you're using bit less bridles. So for some horses, bits are a clear sign. It really depends on the usage. So you need to be very precise with a bit. Your hand should be very soft. Your seat should be very balanced. And it's also true that in some cases, the nuanced communication is harder through a bit less bridle than through a bit. For me, it is a challenge. So I'm doing my best to do high level dressage maneuvers like lateral work or pirates without a bit. In some cases with a bit, it's much more easy. So to achieving the same level of precision in movements and comments without a bit can be difficult and can be more difficult if especially if your horse prefers the bit. So as I told you, every case is different. So every rider and every horse is different. And if you prefer using the bits, then you should be aware of the responsibility of your hands, the softness of your hands. Someone said to me, the thing about the reins is what's at the end of them. And of course, you think that's the bit, but actually it's the other end, it's the hands. Yes, yes, I completely agree. Do you think there's a place if we're doing things where you need to use, let's say quite a severe bit in order to do whatever it is that you're trying to do with the horse? Do you think there's a place for reflecting on, well, is this a reasonable thing to ask the horse if I need to use this severe tool in order to do it? Is there a place for questioning and reflecting on, well, maybe I shouldn't, maybe that I should choose something else to do? I'm not sure what you're thinking, but if you're going out to the forest or I don't know, unsafe situations or something, so I would avoid those with my horse if I'm not prepared to communicate with him or her in those situations. So I would prepare for those situations step by step and I not use sever bits, but to improve my clarity or the self-confidence of the horse and the self-confidence of myself in those situations. So for example, some horses, I don't go out to the forest without a bit because of their temperament, and you need to be in safe place and being safe. Yeah, I was thinking generally as equestrians, as all of us, I guess what I was trying to get at was, is there a conversation we need to have as equestrians? For example, let's say we talk about show jumping where you see some pretty harsh bits being used a lot of the time in the show jumping world, like there's these combination bits where you have a hackamore and a leverage bit, and if we need to use bits that are so severe, is there a question or a conversation we need to have with ourselves about, well, should we actually be getting horses to do these things if we need these harsh pieces of equipment? Yeah, I would ask why those equipments are needed. So if the specific horse is so stressful during the competition, then we need to take a look at the training of the horse, and if this specific horse is so stressed, and you cannot help him or her out from this situation, then I wouldn't go to the competition. So then this horse from a mental perspective, maybe not a good fit to compete with him or her. So I would put the horse in a first focus, and check if she is able to do the situation to solve the problem without those sever bits. That's been really, really interesting, and Karen is much more of your world than I am, but I found it absolutely fascinating, and you've left me with lots more questions that I'm going to go away and explore, but I think it's really part of what we're trying to do here. We often talk about a tent, and you're in this tent now, and you have a perspective, and it's a really interesting perspective, and I'm delighted that you've been our guest, because I think it's really, really interesting and powerful. So thank you so much, Christina.