S2-E3- What Judges Want- Susan Kirklin

Speaker 2 Episode 3 of what judges want and guess what? I'm not croaky today. So, I've got a normal voice and this is a super exciting podcast for the finally. I have my wife, Susan Kirkland on. Hey, Susan, how's it going? It's going great. How are you? Very good. We are sat in my car and it's getting a bit toasty. So this might not be a long podcast. But so first of all, tell me what you think of the series so far, I think it's great. Listen, this is my wife. So what should what's your favorite podcast? Been so far? Which in fact, why don't you name all the gues? Another first guest was scary. Yeah. Yeah. Who is the last guest? Michael Kent. Oh my God, she's so lucky. So Caesar doesn't listen to podcasts, unless it's about crime. So, if we want you to start listening to these podcasts, I need to introduce some crime to it, but I will save myself. My students really love them and I feel like it's something that we get asked all the time. Like what are these judges looking for? So I feel like it's been a wonderful thing that you've done. Speaker 1 Oh, thank you. We're not wonderful enough for you to visit. Speaker 2 But anyway, as I say, we're stuck in like, sat in my car outside, go dance. It's already gettin. Toasty. So tell me. Are you gonna do judge each level differently? Does it go? Ok for newcomer I look for this this and this or have you just got a set of standards that you can? Each everything off. Well, what I do, we're Gary and I have come up with, I think are even mentioned it. Actually did hear some of his, uh, you did because you're editing it. Oh, okay. So we look at this dance circle, and so, the idea of what we're looking for, doesn't really change, but I do have different feelings because like, I know these people are newer and I also look at that level to say, like, okay, well, this is what I can expect from what I'm seeing here. And oftentimes that It even changes depending on the event, you're at, or the country or in. Okay, so you lower your expectations, possibly yes. However, if someone like let's say Victoria Hank, you do not Victoria hate, but someone who's like amazingly talented like Victoria? Oh yeah, who she shows up in novice obviously, she is going to be meeting my expectations for what I'd expect in very high level Champions. If she shows up there, I'm like, yes, awesome, that's incredible. And I would love to see that in the novice level. Um you know, it is not typical that you will cease, okay, that I mean it does happen fairly often like I remember an event recently. I think I was it Swing City Chicago and you would judge a novice and I was empty and there was a guy that entered that was obviously a great dancer and I'm not saying a great West Coast answer but he ticked boxes of like posture body movement and it's just like so it does happen where a professional enters a load of vision and it blows you away, right? And it's like incredible. Where's like I have heard people well in the past say like, okay well I'm you know, maybe they have experience in something else and then they come to this novice Division and then people have told them, we'll make sure you only do Basics or make sure you only do that and I don't feel that way. Obviously, you should only dance to a level that your partner can handle, but that's still higher than your partner, right? Yeah. But, yeah, but you can do a lot even within your own body. That doesn't affect your partner and still show how incredible You Can Dance. Yeah, and I would, I would say go for that. You know, do it. Okay, so you mentioned, I think you called it the magic circle. That's right. The magic we call it the dance circle. Yes. So do you want to hear about? No, that's the end of the podcast. Yeah, I think the viewers at home, would love to hear about that. Okay. Yes. So we have a broken now and this is how we structure like our intensives and also just even our private lessons and group classes. This isn't to sell stuff, it's not fun, but it wasn't even come. We didn't come up with this from a judging perspective but I Think it encompasses a lot of what you look for. So you have content, you have self technique partnering skills, musicality Dynamics and performance. Now that's just what the topics are. I can explain one each of those if you want me to 100% great. So content for this were just talking about like this could be patterns this could be stylings you do, this could be timing variations but in its kind of the language of West Coast Swing. So as your judge in and you'll Taking content into consideration. All they've done five sugar pushes in a row where as the person next to them has led to right side. Pass three sugar talks, right? It's okay. So you're looking for that new comer, does that cross your mind? I guess maybe it does. I mean, I'm a happy probably a newcomer that I'm like that West Coast Swing looks recognizable. Like oh I can tell that they're doing patterns. Yeah you know. So at that point that's great. But yeah, maybe if they did 30 sugar pushes in a row, would be nice to have A little more variety, okay? And for the follow, that's impossible for her to, to help with, or isn't or so things. The follower can do would be like, managing this managing The Styling. So, for instance, like, can you vary your anchors? Could you add hitches, what are you doing with your arms? So there's a lot of things that you can do even though you're not in control of where they're putting you, okay said that they can't help with the patterns but they can with the styling and timing variation, yes. Okay. And then That obviously goes up. Let's talk about like All-Star Champions Advance, you're looking for, you know, like, let's talk about Max aunts or magazine. They always bring very interesting patterns that something that takes a box. Yes. I mean I would say like if we're looking at really high level, so something that you want to avoid is let's say we're talking phrase changes. Let's say you set up to phrase changes within one dance with that were exactly the same like, you probably you yourself but also the judges As we go. Oh, that's too bad. Like yeah, I should have dibs. Yeah, exactly. Like we should have like, if you're gonna do a dip the other one should have been a split it. Maybe the fall were could have helped with that. Yeah. Or like, you know you set the leader up in front and you do the exact same thing unless it's a call back. It's been its intentional but yeah. And then obviously in spotlights, that's very prominent. Yeah, yeah, I see, I see that a lot when I watch my dances back. I might shoot. I've done that. I did that twice in that dance just too many times, right? When all eyes are on you or like if you're in that spotlight, Format. Have you set it up so that it is actually facing the front? That happens a lot when people first transition into like Advanced or All-Star is that they didn't care about that before. But now we do care about it because where the judges are sitting in front watching you and you just dipped everyone to the chairs in the back, you're like ah yeah, I noticed that the main difference between All-Stars and champions actually the All-Stars haven't quite mastered that and the Champions have especially like I mean you look at Kyle A single phrase, change every single hit. He manipulates to the judges or the audience, I love it. I think like, I think that's a big difference. Okay. So, self technique as the next one. So technique. So we talk about this as being like the quality of how you're executing the content. So like you may learn a lot of content and like group classes or videos are really great for that, but a lot of times you'll need a little more personal attention. So it actually looks good on you. And when you say self test, so it's basically the way you move irrespective is that the right word Of your partner. Well, the way you're like, when it because itself to yes so it's like how it how are you? How is your body moving as you're doing these anchors or triples, or how are you moving through space? Exactly. When people say that, I can ask you this people moving through space. I've never, I mean, I'm admitting something. I've never really quite know what that means. Moving through space. What does that mean? Okay, yeah, I mean, well, we talked a lot about, like, quality of movement in walks, for instance, so like one thing like I work on with followers and leaders is metering your movement. So something people do initially is it their walks or kind of choppy because they deliver too much weight to the foot immediately. So you work on saying, like Okay when your strike you're behind the foot, then you're going to move over the foot. Then there's a slight settling to release the new leg. So you're just developing that quality so it looks seamless. Okay. Which I understand that but the moving through space-time is just moving in a Direction. That's right. Yeah, I think I've never known that. I've always liked thought. Oh yeah. Well so like you could also think of space is like the space on the floor that you're occupying. That's not what I meant. But like when you're doing choreography you're like okay we're going to do a charging section to this diagonal or something for an effect. Yeah. That also could be something that people are talking about interested. Yeah, I've always just nodded when people say that and then next up the third ones, we did content which was you know, patterns and stuff. We did self technique which was really like how you move in within within Your dancing. Yes. And then partnering skills. This is an interesting one because you had a lot of questions about this. The T, the T being teamwork. Sure is where this? Maybe falls into. Okay. Yeah. So partnering skills. So that comes down to connection. Of course, there's also an element of lead and follow like, how? Well you're staying connected while you're executing the patterns. And then if you're talking about teamwork, I think that's starting to move to like, the upper levels. We're like, oh my gosh, I can feel that he's Be setting up a phrase change right now, so I need to make sure that I'm on board and I have an idea for how I can embellish it once I get there. So, that's the high level version. So, tell me this, you say a lot to me, I'll say, oh, I can't believe so, and so didn't make finals. I am see. So I don't watch the whole lot. Hell of a lot, but I see things and you'll say they just look so disconnected, what does that look like to you? And you've said that to me about, novice right up to a Champions at just recently happened, tell me what is Nected. What is disconnected? Okay, great. So what I feel like I talk a lot about is so there's obviously we talked about like a stretch or a leverage or a pull sensation and dance. And we have like a push or compression and I'm just using a lot of words, because a lot of times, people get really caught up on the word and I just want you to know kind of what I mean, so, push or pull of some sort. So, what we teach is that you're maintaining this sensation of a pole through let's say, Generally the two of the pattern. So a lot of times the students that I get people will come to me and they'll be connected on that anchor. And as soon as they take the one, the the follower falls out of the connection and then it looks like they're just holding hands through the rest of it. So keeping kind of that resistance usually through the to if it's like a sugar push or left side pass it if it's a whip its kind of when it changes to the other side. So you're constantly. What I what a word I use a lot is your fulfilling these connections so that you're not living. NG and kind of no man's land. Where feels like nothing. I like zero. Yeah. Okay. And and you really want, you really enjoy or teach that it's a weighted nurse and a connectedness throughout yes. So like so one of our main mentors or the plane going overhead, one of our main mentors and I'm talking about Gary and I we worked with this woman named, Tony right path. Whose like, a really big way. She loves Tony season is obsessed. That's true. I am. She's awesome. But like, one of the things that she talked about, she puts everything on a scale from, like a one to attend, just so you can kind of speak about things. So, in terms of connection, when we talk about connection, you can't. So if one is not touching and 10, let's say his full weight of the partner like off the floor. Cool. So, like five I say if it's going to be a pull connection. If you like, oh there's like a little bit of a snap in the connection, but there's no loss in Balance. So a lot of times like all I run into things when people will come to me and they'll say like, okay, well other people say we shouldn't be connected or whatever. I think it's more of a vocabulary issue or discussion. Meaning like I just want people to have a sense of where I am and I want to have a sense of where they are, but it doesn't mean that I'm expecting them to hold me up all the time. And I think that a lot of times when people say connected, they go immediately to like massive leverage to and that's what they're thinking. And now the question Would get, let's say I'm a novice dancer, I'm a follower that has had lessons with you go and compete this weekend, Freedom, swing, and the leads. I get a terrible and they're not holding me up at all. Yeah. What do I do? Okay. Well, you still want to be over your own feet even when you're connected with a good guy, even with a good guy, like, I mean, you can like, so like like I said, it's a scale so you can choose to employ a heavier connection for an effect for something. But I still feel like I'm over my feet. Feet. I don't feel like I'm leaning past my feet generally, and that point, what I would focus on because I will say like, I will find that to like when I do like those Pro-Am Jack and Jill's, and you're dancing with a lot of newer, dancers all be doing like things. I'm normally comfortable with like, hitches and things like that and I can tell it's throwing the partner off. So I go. Okay, well that's not going to be good for this dance, so I'm going to not do that. Yeah, so like so things that I can do that won't throw them off, is Just Dance. My walks nice. And Clean and aggressively and then it looks like I have a lot of energy to my own dance. So I feel like that will get judged pretty well, as opposed to me, being confused by what my partner is getting yanking me. Okay? That makes sense. That makes perfect sense. Okay, great, very good. Okay, moving on. So we've done content. We've done self technique, Pat partnering skills. And then what was the next one? So musicality is next God, a long one. I guess I mean really could talk about any of these forever. Yeah, beautiful. You could listen to all of these podcasts but you choose not to well, no, I've got it. It's on my list. It's ok. It's ok. Just six months ago. There's a lot of crime to get through. That's right. So for musicality, there's one before kind of even musically. That's kind of part of this and that's just being on time. Yeah. And having clear timing and that could be enough for a little over levels is just being like very clear cut. And percussive about when you're doing your step or showing like you're clear to beat increment or pulsing. Yeah, this this is a perfect time to check in with you about triple steps. Okay. So you see a novice dancer who's dancing phenomenal? Keeping those to be increments pulsing but majority the dime time does tap step on an anchor. But very well-connected. Do you look at that and go? Oh, I wish you a triple more. It's possible. I would say like, in that format. At of judging, you're not looking at people that long because usually it's a heated format and you might be even placing 15 couples in the final. So I feel like they might I might not notice it really? Because I'm worried when I'm looking at them, I would just go like, wow, they look great. Cool. I'm gonna place them. I think it's a cop out. I mean I've had numerous students come to me and say they say I need to Triple more and I'm right, I think that's just an excuse or judges or a lot of Judges look for something to hang their hat on to say like because it's an easy excuse. But anyway, now we've got people dust blowing leaves behind us if you can hear that, that's phenomenal as well. So on time. Was there anything else in that? I mean, apart from the obvious. Yeah, I mean that's great. And then the second thing for musicality that we talked about is structural musicality so that so that's going to be like, basically, you don't even have to know the song most songs, workout phrasing wise, which means like in contemporary music, their 32b phrases and blues music. They can be 32 but sometimes our 4th Wait, so basically you can set up your dance to hit these kinds of things in even not knowing the song, you can be successful. I usually cover that next with people because it's a bit more attainable and then the third version is going to be song specific stuff, which means like, oh, it went a little bit and you go put a little bit of something, with your shoulders, with your voice, so the judges can hear and you bet you're not obviously. So this is where, like if someone does this in novice, it's phenomenal. You're not expecting it in nervous, right? When do you start expecting phrase changes? As a question that you don't really know. Like do you kind of go? Okay, Advance, come on now, we should be hitting Fraser. Yes, definitely I would say like, especially like in advance you sometimes get jams for the final and I feel like at that point, it's like they have the all this opportunity to like, okay, all you got to do is hit one phrase change in the and you could bring the house down. Yeah. And oftentimes you won't get it. So it mean it's certainly like maybe people are able to do it yet but If you can do it, that's going to really help you and it's just such a good for. My journey is such a good tool to have because when you're not feeling a song you can jump to that. Yeah. So like even now when a song comes on, oh God, okay. I'll just go to phrase changes because it's a success even it might not win but it's a success. Yeah. Like it's not going you're not going to feel silly or feel like you didn't do anything. Yeah, yeah, yes. One other thing about that though like I have had students who Like really were maybe kind of good at music Kelly early on and I've seen them fly up the ranks even though let's say they had an absence of some, of the other technical things that you would think they would need at that level. So I will say like if you can't get it musicality sometimes you can like move up faster than you should just because people love musicality so much. And we're talking, I mean just to explain this, we're talking about like the five and six and seven, and eight, and one. Yeah. The music like being good with that, whether it's a dip, whether Quick spins, whether it's like a spin to a drop, you know, just having the knowledge that that looks good because it correlates to the level of the songs. Yes. Like what one of my coaches used to always say, is that one, this one I think was his name was cloths. Okay, class. He's just say like if you can make people's ears or so if what people see matches what their ears hear, they like it. Yeah yeah. So like if you can do that, You'll love you and so then they'll place you higher usually unless you're doing something that they don't want, okay? Their decks. Next. Sorry. Yeah, so I'd say talk about something specific so it onto the next thing. Yeah. I mean well, I mean, unless I mean songs specific you made such good example of the Dooby Dooby Doo, but like it is so it's like you're now also interested in. Okay, there was a long syllable there, did they slide? Yeah, and I feel like particularly the follows start really plugging into this as we move into, like the higher levels, like the advanced and All-Star, and we're kind of responsible for playing the song with Her body, or at least that's become more popular in the past, four or five years. And so, people really like to see that as well. So if you can do that, it really helps the partnership that makes sense. Yeah. And and it is that something you can do with a, with a beginner leader, a beginner follow like Play the song with your body within simple. Patterns goes such a long way in my opinion. Totally. Okay. How many more we got? Just two. You're okay because I'm starting to sweat. I'm gonna choke now Dynamics. So Dynamics is kind of standing out on the Dance Floor. This is something like, I don't usually even cover with the lower-level people, but it's it is good and it is useful to learn eventually. So with Dynamics were often talking about, like wait, time, space energy. And if I've just went over your head, you do. Yeah. I'm a highest level dance and that went over my head. Okay. So Like this is another like I'm going to put it on a spectrum for Tony. So weight is going to be light to heavy. So maybe you're going to show like going down to the floor or going, okay? So, that levels level changes. Yes. And it can be within your own body. It can be, or using the benefit of the partnership. Yeah, time, you're showing speed. Right? Like how slow can you go versus? How fast can you, okay? Okay, so this is variety within the dogs. Dynamics is in like speed and then as you say, What draw the ones he say now, I understand where we're going. Okay, those those five. Okay. So, wait, is the high-low. Basically time is the slow, fast. Yeah, it's sorry. Space is the next one. So space is, how little can you be? How big can you be? This is also can be with a partner. How close are you how far away? Yeah so you can imagine like with the Champions level all of a sudden they'll break away from each other or like I said earlier charging across the floor to the audience like is a real crowd-pleaser. Like I don't know why. That's boundary type think. Yeah we're but even in like the spotlights people will charge to the front of the audience. I bet he does that real good. He goes from one side of the floor to the other. Yeah. You're right. Tony. Yes totally. And then, the last one is energy. This one is a free and bound. So this is like, restricted restricting. Your movement to me, like very loose. Okay. So like, she's acting for me now but like almost like, tensed and tone like where you're very tie and then you go into like an Emmeline style. Yeah. Okay. Totally perfect. Okay, so that like I said, like a Glenn style tense and tone to an Emmeline, okay, cool. I'll get it. So. Okay, so, but obviously, we're not again. I've kind of said this and the whole time, but like you wouldn't expect great Dynamics in novice intermediate, right? But but then someone starts doing it in intermediate because you can do that kind of by yourself in your own start dancing. So it's really good for people at that level to even think about and start exploring right? Yeah. So like if One comes in and like you said with other training like let's say there were good at hip-hop and then they all of a sudden they just do a cool Spin and they pop their head like sharply. Yeah. Everyone's like, that was incredible. Yes, yeah, so like, oh ballet, like it's not real good at ballet and they suddenly like extend their legs slowly. Yeah. It's like whoa. Yeah. So it's definitely like it can work for you at any level but usually we see it in the higher levels and that's something that actually, I think's important I say to a lot of people going from advance to All-Star Wendell Okay. What do I need or all starts Champions? It's like you need another background. A background which is impossible to just conjure up but like that's why they're people coming in that do ballet or experts, let's say some of them aren't experts but, you know, so good at other dance forms. You can suddenly add these things so much easier. So like that that bringing something else to the table is so important at all levels definitely but it's not essential because there's like the Emily's done, no other dance and other than West Coast and Phenomenal. Yeah, no. So you don't have to do it, you can create your own thing that you bring to the table. Okay. Last one would be performance. All right, now we're talking to. Yeah, this is yeah. So so this is basically how well are you selling your product to me or your movement, or your dance partnership? So, I feel like like you said, this is something you're very good. I'll keep going. I, this this podcast gonna be an hour long now. Just talk about me for 30 minutes because like sometimes I'll say like there, And things I teach or certain things I like. But if someone does something kind of weird or crazy but they just sell it to me. I'll go. Yeah, I'm buying that I love it. Like, I love this person. This to me is actually the Golden Nugget right now because as so many judges we have our rules, some don't as over expressed on this podcast. I don't believe all of the judges even know what they're looking for, but we all accept that someone can do something phenomenal and it can even be what we want to put first because it's the selling of it and it's the commitment to it. Is that what you're saying exactly? Right? Yeah. Like to me, it's so true. I go. I just need this. I just need that. It did. Someone will come. I was judging a country comp, a couple of months ago, and a guy wasn't particularly good. And he took off his shirt and he like danced topless, but he was kind of large. Like, it wasn't like he was like, six pack and it was the commitment and it was the rawness, because he didn't take it off, just, oh, I'm going to take my tight happened and I'm like, I hate everything about what's happening, but I put him in first What you do because it was just this and then he obviously danced like, as well as first place did. So it was just like this commitment to this energy and craziness and organic nurse of the whole experience. I was judging, but I'm not saying we should take off our shirts. So yes, a carry on with your performances or anything else you wanted to add to that. Yeah, so like at a lower level like I'm happy if you just make me feel comfortable so that can just be smiling. Like a lot of times when people are newer and this is Totally fine people look nervous. And so if they can just smile or look like they are having a good time, that's incredible. And then like as you get better and better, it's your interaction between each other and then if your partner does something you look interested in what they're doing so your part. What's going on over there? Yeah so that like it is part of that team work. So you're not just selling yourself you're selling the couple and then when it gets up to All-Star Champions you expect more. Typical of the word performance where it is a more of a show. Yes. So like that is something I always say for like All-Stars often do all the same stuff that Champions do but what I say is in Champions, they really take credit for everything they do. So people go I guess that was good. Yeah and a lot of times in officers they do backflips and like it splits and all the same stuff but they almost apologize for it and want to get out of it quickly on to the next thing and so people go I guess that wasn't that good? Yes. So like that really is the big difference, like an All-Star, sometimes do this incredibly as well but like that the majority for the majority it's just like oh I'm sorry I did that's what okay next thing. Yeah, as opposed to like living it and believing in it and selling it yes yeah yeah. And as you say taking credit for it. Okay. So it was there. Anything like if we talk about the judging again was there anything else before I move on to some questions from people having that's good with me. But yeah I'm over this is one that I Stuff. You. Is there? Any definite? No knows when you see and I always say this, the hand behind the back on the men's skins like their leaders twins. Like is there anything? That's like a definite? No, like totally dead. Going forward, but like, or does it come back to if it's good? If it's committed, it's fine. Yet for me, I don't have any definite NOS. I maybe like some things more than others. The one thing that I don't like seeing that I sometimes will see is like disrespect. So like people looking like, they're not pleased with. Who they got. Like, I really find that offensive. Yeah, even in between songs. Like, yeah. Like I find like I really that rubs me the wrong way, like just not being like Sportsman, like her kind. Yeah, people. But yeah, you know this story but the first-ever competition I was at my friend competed or girl. I knew like, I hardly knew anyone and she got this like, really bad lead. Hmm. And I was like, oh, what a shame. She's a really good dancer and she came off and I was like, like ready for her, too. Aah. And I was like, like waiting and she went oh, that was really fun. And I was like, oh, okay, and then we got back to the room and she was like, oh it's kind of, you know, disappointed and I was like and I said to you after it, so she was so good. Like she didn't say anything, you know, and you had, yeah, we kind of don't West Coast Swing, right? You know. It is what it is. It's and I always remember that. So that was my rule of like, always being positive and always being and wanting to see positivity. So when you don't is really upsetting because no one's doing it on purpose, of course, and It's a nut. I say this to my students. It's an unfair competition. We don't know our partner, we don't know the music. We don't know where we're going on the floor. We don't know the judges. If you think it's going to be fair, you're going to be upset. Yeah. So yeah, I agree. I think that's a great point. And no one else has brought that up. You wouldn't know because you haven't listened to a podcast, but no one else has brought that up. But yeah, the couldn't like how you conduct yourself. Yeah. Can have a big telling ya. Okay. So before we finish clothing. Hmm. I'm interested. So you haven't heard what other judges have said about this. But a guy goes on the floor with sneakers, okay? And a guy goes on the floor dance shoes. Tell me what you're thinking, mostly. I don't care about. I don't care what people are wearing, I would say, like, so, like, sometimes I'll wear like, sneakers, when I'm doing like, Lindy choreography. So, like some shoes make me feel more dancing in a specific, why away than another kind. So if you wear a certain shoe and it makes you feel good and you Sell your movement more, that's great. Now if you look uncomfortable, so sometimes like girls who wear heels, but they're not comfortable in heels. So that's something that I don't like to see equally as bad. Yeah. Right. Like in heels on their own or beautiful, but they like, if they're kind of just tripping over themselves or falling at it turns, it's like, well, maybe that's not the best choice for you. So I would leave it up to you. But maybe try several shoes film yourself and see. Wait, what'd you look best done but you don't necessarily He care if a girl was wearing sneakers, or follow as wearing sneakers or lead was wearing sneakers. I don't care. Yeah, I would say, like, it might not be benefiting them, and in terms of like, maybe they don't look as slick as they could. But I, you know, I don't care about the shoes themselves. Yeah. Okay cool. Well that wasn't so hard. Was it? Yeah. Besides you that. Yeah, we got there. I've been asking season to do this since episode one and then I got her in on episode 3. Three or four three of season two. So thank you so much for coming on. We're going to head into the studio now and dance all day. Thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. You're awesome. Speaker 1 What judge is what? Thank you for joining us on episode 3 of what judges want. Thank you to Susan for giving up her time. Don't forget sending some questions and next week I have a swing content special so make sure you join me next week for episode 4. What judges want? Thank you for joining us on episode 3 of what judges want. Thank you to Susan for giving up her time. Don't forget sending some questions and next week I have a swing content special so make sure you join me next week for episode 4. What judges want?