S2 [12] The Guy in the Cowboy Hat | The Ballad of Billy Balls

I'm Lori Siegel and on my new podcast, "Mosley Human," I'll take you to some wild corners of the tech world. I'm about to go on a date with an AI companion and add a real-world cafe right here in New York City. There's no playbook for what to do when an AI model hallucinates a story about you. "Mosley Human" is your playbook for how tech can work for you. Anyone can now be an entrepreneur, anyone can build an app, and it's very empowering. Listen a "Mosley Human" on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of Motor Racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1. Including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F1 romance novels, and plenty of mishap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, Bachelor Star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. "You doctor this particular test twice in selling, correct?" "I doctor the test once." It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. "Regal S be and, I go around cheating." My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. "Lora, Scottsdale Police." As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trap Podcasts on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For confidence in your financial plan, look for a CFP professional. When your financial advisor earns the CFP certification, it means he or she is trained to provide ethical financial planning across a holistic range of topics, from retirement and investing to taxes and estate planning, all in your best interest. So, with a CFP professional, you'll feel confident in your financial plan today and tomorrow. Three letters do make a difference. Visit Let'sMakeAPlan.org to find your CFP professional. Hey, Ron is a post-partum professor of water. Austin and I are back at Ron Kuby's office going through the police file. So, the most intriguing thing about this file will certainly appeal to your sense of trying to see the unseen is this memo book entry. Ron is holding up one page, a page of handwritten notes from a memo book. Now, do you know how a memo book works? - No. Okay, back when the universe was young and dinosaurs were on the planet, you would have like these stenography books. And you'd write on this side, right, right, right, right, right, right, then you flip it over and you'd write on the other side, pressing really hard. Upon photocopying, you will see a precisely mirrored writing. See all this stuff here? - Yeah. This is the flip side of this page. Just below the writing on this page is an imprint, a very faint outline of the writing from another page. If you hold that sucker to a mirror and shine a light directly on it, the hidden writing will be revealed. And who knows what key to the universe this poses. I haven't really had enough time to play around with it, but you want to do it together? - Yes. Okay, come on. Ron leads me into his kitchen closet. I think this is the right way. Yeah, it's going to be awesome. I came out of the closet a long time ago. - Okay, now you're going there. There's a mirror against a wall. Ron holds up the paper and we lean over to get close, studying the reflection. So, if you look at this carefully, this is narcotics. These are the names. Detectives. - Detectives. Yeah, I can't quite make it out, but under better light, we're relaxed. Maybe. We can't make out a name. And maybe this has absolutely nothing to do with our case. But as we walk out of the closet, I look down at the police report in my hands and realize that this imprint has everything to do with our case. It's all the ship that's redacted on the page before. It's the same. It's this. Oh, look at you. - Yeah. Okay, you get the redactions. So you may actually get the name of the guy that. That's the name of it. It's the name of the undercover cop who shot Billy. We sit down in Ron's conference room and Austin, who's been quiet this whole time, speaks up. So I just want to say that you ruined my reveal, Ron. Oh, no! You're going to go into this. But while we're here. So I noticed the similar thing and I brought it into Photoshop. There's no fucking way you didn't. Let's see. Do you have the fucking name? Yep. [Music] Oh my god, you have his fucking name. And a shield. And a hand hat and narcotics. Detective Ronald. Holy shit. We have the guy in the cowboy hat. [Music] From Crime Town, I'm Iotillet Wright. And this is the Ballad of Billy Balls. [Music] She knew who had come to visit Billy that night. She knew that it was a police officer, an off-duty police officer, and a cowboy hat. [Music] Billy said to me that the dude that shot him came to the hospital and sent him, if it was up to me, you wouldn't be in here. There's another reason why you may not be able to get access to a particular record because the officer was working and a cover. [Music] Chapter 12. The guy in the cowboy hat. [Music] Everyone I've talked to for this project, who knew Billy, wonders who the guy was, who shot him. It sounded to me like this guy was just some bad, dirty, sleazy, rogue cop kind of guy. [Music] The guy busted in and shot Billy. And I heard something later on that that guy either got killed or whatever he was kicked off the police force and investigated. He was like some dirty, rogue cop. The cops broke in, guns ablazing. And I remember hearing people speculate like, is this cops shooting people because they're assholes? Why would the police shoot him? It's got to be more to it than that. Unless you get to interview the guy that the cowboy had, I don't know how you're ever going to solve it. There was an undercover cop, some crazy lunatic obsessed with my dad. And there's so many things you think about that, dude. Like was he like put in this position to monitor my father? Was he demoted from something and he was all bitter? I've put so many thoughts into who this guy could be. [Music] Hey. Hey man, how you doing? I'm out of town. So Austin and I are doing some studio coordination. Are you in the studio? Yes I am. And preparing to call the guy in the cowboy hat. He's in his early 70s, lives on Long Island and goes by Ronnie. We won't be using his last name. Well, I will tell you that when I talk to Ronnie the other day, he didn't seem extremely enthusiastic about this. Right, right. Just be cordial and kind and nice and all that. He may be a murderer but he may not be. All right. Well 1059. Okay, we are recording. Austin, talk to me for a sec. Yes, hello. That's good. Okay, I'm going to call Mr. Holy shit. Hello. Hi. Is this Ronnie? Yeah, hello, I am. Hi, how are you? Fine, how are you? I'm doing well. Thank you so much for taking my call. I don't know what assistance I can give you because really I'm probably not much other than that's on the, like there's everything's on paper. Yeah, you know, from my side it's like you're probably going to be more useful than you think because this was such a big moment in my mom's life but because her and Billy weren't married, she was really kept out of the loop on everything and so over the last 37 years it's kind of become this mythological story of what happened and you are the only person who knows what happened that night. Well, I'm sure she's upset naturally. Of course she would be but it doesn't change back. Sure. And everything is on that base, everything's on paper. Totally was completely investigated in nine different ways and it was completely legitimate. Yeah. I know this is a fragile situation and he can hang up at any second. God, I have so many questions for you. Can I just ask you one question just about how? I know you have a thousand questions and none of my grants are probably. Well, I'm just, I'm curious about you a little bit like how did you become a cop? No, that was a long story, a long time ago. I was at school for chemistry. I wasn't looking to become a police officer but it's a test. I was married and my wife had a baby. I was 20 years old. I was in my second year of school and I left there to go to the police department. Ronnie started as a trainee in the late 60s. Once I got in I loved every minute of it. A great job. It seems like a terrifying time to be a cop though and the like. Oh, was it dangerous? Absolutely. It was incredibly dangerous. How did you get into undercover work in particular? I tried to be coming undercover as an investigator and we had no undercover to go out and do vise to go to the ordinary. So I did it and then once I did it, I did it again and again. That's the thing I know and that's all I did. It was an exciting case, many, many exciting cases. Did you like the work out better? Yeah. Did you like working undercover? It seems stressful to me. Yes, I did. It was good because you had a lot of control of the case. What were some of the more exciting ones that worked out better? Well, I worked on the Westies. The Westies is an Irish-American gang that's dominated organized crime in the Hell's Kitchen area of Manhattan for decades. There was the Irish gangs on the West side of Manhattan. They told me people in Manhattan South told me they killed over 100 people. Ribbon and morph, contract killings. Even among organized crime rings, the Westies were considered especially brutal and were known for dismembering those they killed. As we follow the floor, that's how quick the plastic amount. We had seven ripped apart and about an hour like mad dogs. Almost impossible to ever get an in-road into the Westies. I think I always liked the primary undercover in the Westies case. And it had so much enthusiasm to meet it at people. Ronnie says that in the mid-80s, he went undercover as a drug dealer to build a case against the Westies. It was just like a drug addiction to them. I was like a major drug dealer. Who's they believed? You know what you're doing. Very often, we're a wire. It's hanging out with them, drinking, talking, violent drinks. Like my friends. It's not that they like you or anything like that. Because I don't think that I can anybody if he kills 25 people, what kind of person would you be? They're looking to make money. I'm hopeful that you'll be able to make money for them. And Ronnie convinced them that he could make money for them. They gave me like, I think it was 50 or 60 pounds of fedamins if they sold an arm robbery on consignment. But they also told me how they got this thing and they stick up on their ass. They put eight people in a lock them in a room. So, the goal that they felt was a good fedamins and left with suitcases full of stuff. Like they thought that I was like so connected I could just sell it off and give them like couple hundred or whatever they want. Which of course I didn't. Instead, Ronnie says he passed on the information to the NYPD and the FBI. It was like very, very exhilarating and it was, you beat them. They won over the bad guy. You got the most history. And they really were a bad people. And those people all got put away. The acid did for a very long time. I did quite a few cases. I worked on the banana, the sound by the fish market. The bananas, one of the major Italian mafia families in New York City. They were into everything. Drug being one of the counterfeit credit causes of time, the exhaustion, the new name that they did it. 75-year-old Joseph Bonanno, the reputed crime lord of New York City, a leader of one of the five mafia families. Tomorrow he goes on trial for allegedly interfering with the grand jury investigation. I was on designated on the cover for the total 17 years. I've done, I'm total of over a thousand drug buys in my career. Police say a string of storefronts were used for the packaging and sale of illegal drugs. The peddling took place on the low-rise side. Did you work in the East Village in particular or a lot or were you all over New York? I was in a lot in the East Village, not in particular, that was just one location. I don't think that they can ever stop the drug flow in the lower-rise side. I don't think we have enough law enforcement agents to stop that. After the break, Ronnie goes to 13th Avenue. I'm Lori Siegel and I'm mostly human echo beyond the headlines with the people building our future. This week, an interview with one of the most influential figures in Silicon Valley, open AI CEO Sam Aldman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to products we put out in the world. From power to parenthood. Kids, teenagers, I think they will need a lot of guardrails around AI. This is such a powerful and such a new thing. From addiction to acceleration. The world we live in is a competitive world and I don't think that's going to stop. Even if you did a lot of redistribution, you know, we have a deep desire to excel and be competitive and gain status and be useful to others. And it's a multiplayer game. What's is the man who has extraordinary influence over our lives have to say about the weight of that responsibility? Find out on Mostly Human. My highest order bit is to not destroy the world of AI. Listen to Mostly Human on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. If you're trying to keep up with everything happening on and off the court, we've got you covered on the podcast, Flagrant and Funny. You look at the top four number one sieves. What do you think UCLA is going to do? Break down that for me, my friend. Obviously, you kind of see overwhelmed the favorite in this tournament. But I'd be honest, I think people are kind of sleeping on Texas experts are suggesting that UCLA is the number one challenger to Yukon and that right after that would be Texas. S&C is so it's so deep and so thinking just about everything. It really is annoying. So it's UCLA, Texas, South Carolina, LSU, only ones I could possibly upset Yukon. On Flagrant and Funny, we're giving our unfiltered takes on the biggest moments of the conversations everyone's having. So whether your bracket is busted or you just want the latest on the tournament, we got you. Listen to Flagrant and Funny with Carrie Champion and Jamel Hill on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of I Heart Women's Sports. Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age. What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wagga Getten change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no grip. A Formula One culture podcast that dives into the unburxed Lord pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishaps, scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you mind telling me just like what happened that night even if I can't really go I can't go on the details obviously. I'm on the phone with Ronnie. the undercover cop who shot Billy. Can you tell me a little bit about your undercover persona that you had? Did you have an outfit or something that you wore back then? - No, I just tried to be fit in with the average or be able to depending on a different case. - Mm-hmm. Did you ever wear a cowboy hat? - No. (soft music) - No, huh. It's weird. It's a rumor that you had been wearing a cowboy hat. - Well, someone else may have been that I was. I never wore a hat. - Huh. Huh. Well, do you remember like when you first heard the name Billy Piano? 'Cause it sounds like he had a bit of a reputation. Do you remember? - Well, I only got that from the employment. I did not know the price, but the employment is the one. - Gosh, you. - Ronnie says an informant tipped the police off to Billy. And was the informant part of a bigger case or was that like a one-off? - Well, it was part of a case and it was a large of target, obviously. It was not my case. I was not the investigator. It was the undercover. Another detective had done the investigation. They'd all the background found out who we're buying, what we're doing. And then he would introduce me to the informant. 'Cause this is just basic, except what they do. And then I get introduced to buy drugs. - Do you remember what the substance was that you had been told he was selling? - Yeah, she was selling, obviously. And we were, the idea was to get the connection, it was beyond him, above him, who probably was doing quite a bit of weight in heroin. - In heroin? - Yeah. - Gotcha. Did that case ever go anywhere and whatever happened with that situation? - I never worked with him again. I'm sure that someone else did. So I only had one part in the case and that was it. It was one of those things that he might run. - Ronnie says that Billy called his supplier - Okay, so when did you come in? - And Ronnie went into the bathroom. I was writing down the connection phone number and he followed me to the bathroom and you know, it's the me. And had it gone on me. I don't know what it would say to me, but if I was writing a phone number down to pull a gun on somebody. - Right. - And then he cocked the gun, which really sent me lost because when you cocked, you had like a hair trigger. - And you felt like significantly afraid. It was the cocking that made you think, oh, like this guy's gonna actually shoot me. - He's not the only one who's pulled the gun on me, but he's the only one who can insist me was about the fire. He activated the round that would have been in the chamber. It was like not a good move on his part. - Ronnie says Billy then backed out of the bathroom with his gun still up. - He went out to try to meet the gun on me and it was pretty uncomfortable. He says he took out his buy money. - No, that was really basically to distract him 'cause there was no deal at that point. - And then? - I did it correctly, quickly. I thought that he fired. I saw a spark coming. I figured it was a simultaneous fire. - Ronnie says he thought Billy had fired. He thought he saw sparks from Billy's gun. In the police report, it says that Billy never fired his gun. - That was the only disagreement we had. So whether it was that first shot actually went off. Signal canyously, or when I was seeing my own sparks. I don't know where sparks came from in his direction, but what I actually see in my own sparks is, I don't know. I can only say what I saw. But he had known to fire his gun. According to the informant now. But the informant I believe was totally, totally truthful. And he was petrified if a guy. They said he never got the fire. I said that he did, 'cause I saw the thing. And I'm the one who decocked the gun and emptied it. - Would that make a difference to you if it wasn't? - That wouldn't have been a difference at all. - Did he seem erratic to you? - Well, he's here to me to be pretty high. I've seen things go down where I just say, why would this guy have done this? And drugs are very lost in the cause. - What happens right after you? - Well, right after we could save him to get into the hospital and get him next stop. - You tried to save him? - Yes, we did. We got him right to the hospital. He was actually interviewed by a team afterwards. - Right. - He was hospitalized initially. Did you ever go see him in the hospital? - I know, no. I'm sure he wouldn't want to visit it for me. - I wonder if you're comfortable telling me a little bit about what you felt in that situation. Like was that a rare occurrence? Are there like. - Yeah, that's a rare occurrence. I actually ended up in a shootout of any time. And I was not happy with it at all. I mean, you can't be happy meeting in bomb and something like that. - So it's bothered you? - No, it's just a closet there. You didn't want that to happen. - Yeah. - I can't imagine anyone being happy about it. Obviously, I don't really want to shoot any people over the cops over like 40 years. And then he was the only one. - He's the only one? - Yeah. - Oh my God. - The sad thing I. I don't know what to say. - Yeah. Yeah, it is a sad thing. It's really wild to hear that in your 40 years as a police officer, he was the only one. - The only one. - Ever shot. That must stick with you. - Well, it is what it is. I mean. - Yeah. - There's nothing gonna change it. - So I can't really talk too much more about it. I don't want to get into anything. Like, I'm not even proud of this for the photography when it all works. - Okay. - I don't want to go too far with it. - Okay, well, thank you again. I really appreciate it. And I hope you have a beautiful day. - I'm saying to you. Thank you very much. - All right, take care. - Bye. - Bye. - I would tell me what you're feeling. - Uh. (coughs) (coughs) (sniffs) (sniffs) - I sense an openness from him. I get the sense that he cares. He struck me as somebody caught between. How much he believes in his job. And like a very human response, which was. This is very unfortunate. And like, he stopped short of saying, "I'm sorry," but I could feel that from him. Like, he wasn't. He wasn't like. Fuck it. Like, whatever. Yeah, so what? This happened. He was a fucking high-maniac. Like, whatever. When he said we did everything we could to save him, make sure he went straight to the hospital. There's remorse there. I'm just looking over the questions that we have for him and it's like. It was fucking heroin. - It was heroin. - I also find it very interesting that. (coughs). does he never work, cowboy hat. I also find it very interesting that. does he never visited him in the hospital? And his response to that also was interesting, because he said, "Well, no, I mean, that would upset him." Which I find to be a very human answer to the question of, "Did you go see the man who you. just shot six times in the hospital?" I too would be like, "No, he doesn't want to see me." He also gave some details about the cocking of the gun that make me think that he's telling the truth about him remembering Billy cocking it and him being the one to decock it afterwards. You know? I think him also emptying the gun and. (sighs). was a very human detail. It doesn't seem like he was making it up. Here's my understanding right now. I don't think Ronald (bleep) went to that house to kill Billy Balls. Based on the information that we have, I don't believe that. I can see a world in which. the bigger case. like, what if. No, that doesn't make any fucking sense. There's just like the conspiracy just falls apart for me. It seems all right. really fucking unfortunate and stupid. - Yeah, it's all very sad. - It's devastating because it didn't need to happen. If Billy hadn't been erratic and high probably, and if he hadn't had a gun, wouldn't have shot him. And all this tragedy, all this devastation of him him being ripped from my mom and it seems to me that it did not need to happen. As Ronnie has spent 37 years probably telling himself that he did the right thing, my mom has also spent 37 years telling herself that he did the wrong thing. And that this great tragedy and she was robbed and Billy was robbed and all of these things. And the whole thing is just this, like exercise and what the mind creates versus what the reality is when you just have all the fucking information. (soft music) - She here? I think she's here. - Next week? - Let me just take off my coats. - One last sit down with my mom. - Uh-oh, being led to the kill. - It's the final chapter of the Ballad of Billy Balls. (upbeat music) ♪ I'm the one who talked to her where ♪ - Crime Town is Zach Stewart-Pontier and Mark Smurling. The Ballad of Billy Balls is hosted by me, I owe Till It Right and Made in partnership with Cadence 13. You can find me on the internet. I'm I owe loves you on everything. Do say hi. And if you wanna know more about my story, you can pick up my memoir, Darling Days. We also wanna hear from you. We have a voice mail set up for you to call us and tell us whatever you want. Here's a guy with good taste. - Can I just say, I think that the scene song is absolutely genius. Absolutely genius and it's perfect for the podcast. I wish you all the very best regards to how this turned out. I've enjoyed the hell out of this, thank you. - I totally agree. Everybody should check out the rest of their music, light asylum. They're the best. ♪ In the air to die ♪ - If there's something on your mind, thoughts, feelings, complaints, whatever, call us and leave us a voice mail at 570-392-9660, especially if you have a family mystery. I'm obsessed with hearing about them. You can also get into our discussion forum on our website, theballetofbillyballs.com. The show is produced by me, Kevin Shepherd, and Ryan Swaker. Our senior producers Austin Mitchell, editing by Zach Stewart-Crantier and Mark Smirling. Fact checking by Jennifer Blackman. This episode was mixed by Sam Bayer, music by Kenny QCYAH. Our title track is Dark Allies by Light Asylum. Archival research by Brennan Reese. Special thanks to Nicole Wong. Thanks to Danielle Eryah, Rachel Lee Wright, Emily Leedaman, Greencard Pictures, Alessandro Centoro, Bill Clegg, Ben Davis, or in Rosenbaum, and the team at Cadence 13. And of course, my mom, without whom none of this would be possible. And this week, I want to give an extra shout out to Austin for his handy Photoshop techniques. (upbeat music) - I'm Lori Siegel, and on my new podcast, Mostly Human, I'll take you to some wild corners of the tech world. I'm about to go on a date with an AI companion, add a real-world cafe right here in New York City. - There's no playbook for what to do when an AI model hallucinates a story about you. - Mostly Human is your playbook for how tech can work for you. - Anyone can now be an entrepreneur, anyone can build an app, and it's very empowering. - Listen to Mostly Human on the IHART Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. - Ready for a different take on Formula One? Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1, including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F1 romance novels, and plenty of mishaps, scandals, and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHART Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - You doctor this particular test twice, Miss Ellen, correct? - I doctor the test once. - It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. - Regal, let's be in, Michael Manchini. - My mind was blown. - I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. - Laura, Scott Stil Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trap podcast on the IHART Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - This is an IHART podcast. Guaranteed Human.