S1E8: "Married with Ice Cream and Children"

Welcome. We're Jackie and Brian, and this is As the Ice Cream Churns. Together, we found an ample hills creamery, one of the most beloved ice cream brands of the last decade. Then, we lost it all. We filed for bankruptcy a day before New York City shut down to the COVID-19. Now, someone else owns ample hills and we're out of work. But, we're ready to start over. Come join us for an exploration of what went wrong, and more importantly, what comes next. Our guides are close friend Debbie Rosen. She created the cracked cookies in her hit flavor, salted cracked caramel. When she's not baking, she's a therapist. We thought she could help us navigate these troubled waters. Let's get started. Hey Debbie. Hey, Debby. Hey, Debby. Hi, Brian and Jackie. Or is it Jackie and Brian? And the reason I say this is today is a bit of a departure from the story as there's been a lot of interest in how you run a business with your partner, and in your case, a married couple with children. Let's begin. Okay. When you started this business, how did you define your roles? Well, I don't know that we thought about it consciously when we started. I was a screenwriter. Jackie was a high school teacher and she was still teaching during those first few years actually. The business was really the genesis of it was really my baby. This thing that like the ice cream was the thing that I was the most passionate of. And obviously though, we had to do it together. It was 110% a joint thing. When we started, I think it was really clear that I could do one thing which was make all the ice cream and I could barely do that as we talked about back in the first episode. And so I was working 12, 14 hour days just trying to make all this ice cream and really be the back of house and in the kitchen. The creative thing. And you were. I was working. I was still teaching, but I was also then working in the front of the house too. I'm working with all the scoopers and trying to figure out how to brand the shop and in charge of all the marketing and that kind of thing. But I would oftentimes come back from work. At like 3.34 o'clock to go to work at the shop. You were working two full-time jobs. Yeah. I mean the thing that I always thought was so neat was that we were kind of marrying this interest in storytelling and screenwriting that I had done with your passion for community and students. I mean, you're working with people and students and your job as a teacher. Right. Made over perfectly. Right. And my job as a teacher was, you know, creating internships for students and showing them how to work in the real world. So that was very much of an interest to me to make customer service and the experience of coming into Ampholta Hills like an incredibly fun and exciting, you know, experience because I knew also just as a customer that you also don't want to walk into a space that doesn't feel good that the people aren't welcoming warm and, you know, the space isn't great. It's one thing to do this just the two of you. But you had very young children when you were when you opened. Kaleo was an infant. No, no, it was three. How did you balance running the shop with your roles as parents? That was a challenge. You know, it's, that's it. It's one thing when you're, you know, running a shop with a partner, but then you have kids that you have to think about. And in the beginning, really, there wasn't a balance. Brian worked all day making ice cream and all night at the shop and, you know, we had a sitter, I think, for Kaleo during the day. And then when I was at work, I mean, I think no one was in preschool. And then I would pick up the kids and then I'd bring the kids to the shop. And then the shop would be the babysitter. And I would work at the shop and friends would come in and, you know, you know, maybe help me out for an hour to and take the kids to the playground or, you know, literally they met customers who could see that we were stressed out would take the kids over to underhill playground and like, you know, oh, can we take Nona and Kaleo with us? We'd be like, yes. Right. And scupers became babysitters. Yeah. And some babysitters became scupers. That's right. We ended up having to struggle through that in the early years. In the years that followed as the business and the kids grew, how did things change and did the kids feel like they had to compete with the business? Well, yeah. I mean, in a lot of ways, as they got older, it got a bit easier. You know, we were able to leave them for a longer period of time. And, you know, we didn't have to, you know, constantly watch if they were like, you know, I don't know, eating glass off the ground went in the beginning, right? And like, taking the nails from like that would fall out or it was a little stressful, you know, I mean, it was good that it was an ice cream shop, you know, I mean, we built a play area in the back for kids because we knew our kids would be there. I mean, it wasn't like we had a saw factory that we were taking them to work. No, you know, it wasn't. There was also the issue of, you know, trying to limit the amount of scoops of ice cream in the beginning. All right, because there were little kids and we didn't want them to eat ice cream all day long. Yeah, but sometimes they did, like we'd sit them down with like, you know, a piece of ooey gooey butter cake and that would be kind of like there. Like this, that would get them to be quiet for half hour or a week of work. Yeah. Now, it's true. I mean, that was, that was tough. I mean, but the, I think as they grew, they definitely, you know, came a time when they would just be like, you know, ice cream ice cream. It's all you ever talk about is ice cream and, and they would, you know, and they would start to wish that we had a toy store instead of an ice cream shop or a cupcake shop instead of an ice cream shop. How did you explain the business to them? When they could understand, right? Yeah, I mean, it changed over the years, I guess. I mean, at first, it was just, you know, we, we make ice cream, you know, and that's all that a three-year-old and a five-year-old, you know, four-year-old need to understand, you know, be excited. But, you know, I guess, you know, where it got really complicated was just as time went on and we faced challenges was trying to explain those things to them. And I remember, you know, God, I remember just six months ago, sitting down with the kids and trying to explain to them what bankruptcy meant and, yeah, tricky that was. Yeah, no. You know, there were, no, there were just, you know, when you think back about it, it's like, you know, there was just, it was, it was a challenge. Yeah. In those early years, how did the staff respond to you as owners, founders, and as a married couple? Did their perception change over time as the company grew? Yeah, I mean, when we started, you know, we were really the very definition of a mom and pop shop. I mean, we were a mom and pop and we were married and we had the kids and the kids lived at the shop and the staff knew the kids. Many of the staff would watch the kids. There was a really a sense of all of us being in it together. I mean, they rooted for us and we were there for them and we worked alongside them. I mean, you know, 14 hours a day, you know, there were no, there were no roles that were too small or too big for anybody to do, you know, people would help me make ice cream and I'd take the garbage out. I mean, you know, you do everything and you need to do everything. I think that unfortunately, you know, one of my great regrets is that, you know, over time, as you grow and we knew this would happen to some extent and we would conscious of it and we still sort of struggled with how to do it is, you know, if you have 10 shops and as we had 12 shops and 14 shops, Jackie and I can't be in every shop every day. We can't, you know, by the end we had two to 300 scoopers. I didn't know the names of every single scooper and I couldn't work alongside every single person and we'd brought it other partners, equity partners, other investors. And so it was no longer just our company, it was a whole group of investors. And so that divide between the people that are on the front line scooping ice cream, the people interacting with the company starts to get wider and wider that gap between them and the founders. And I'm not sure in retrospect, you know, I don't know how we could have changed that, but it's one of the things that that goodwill starts to dissipate over time. Yeah, I mean, I think it, you know, towards the end of before we lost the company basically, you know, towards the end, we were really trying to make an effort to go back to that place of mom and pop. And be be a part of the shops and really be there. And because it seemed every single time I would go to a shop and I would scoop alongside scoopers, you know, when we had gotten as large as we had we were, it was always a great experience, both for them and for me. And, you know, and it also helps informed informed decisions that we would make, you know, you know, in a larger sense back at HQ and it was, it was really, you know, part of what, you know, we wanted in a company was that that feeling of rootedness, that feeling of grounding, that feeling of authenticity of like we're here for you, we hear you, we want to incorporate, you know, what your thoughts are into this company and figure out, you know, how to make sure they're going to be a part of the company. You know, how to make sure they're heard, it just gets a lot harder when you grow, you have so many, you know, shops and people and, and how do you keep that sense of, of hominess. I remember sort of towards the end, actually, we started to develop a schedule. I was really excited about it. I mean, we never got to an active because things went south really quickly. And, you know, we, you know, we realized that in the day to day, just trying to put up fires, we were never getting to the shops, never spending time with people. And so we developed a schedule. I think every Tuesday, we were going to be in different shops. That's right. And then every Wednesday, we were going to be in a shop together and hold like a round table with the staff and answer questions. And every Thursday, we were going to be in the factory. So we were going to really develop a schedule that we were going to stick to because nothing's more critical than that sort of, you know, you have to organize it and structure it and build that time in. Yeah, I was very excited about that. And it really did seem to be the thing that we needed to do at that point in time. And then we couldn't. Even though you were equal partners in the business and in marriage where there are gender issues that arose in running the business. Oh, yes. I think, you know, for me personally, I kind of just, you know, it was, it was hard just as a woman in general to be heard. It was clear when you're standing alongside a man that, you know, more than likely, if you're both, you know, part of the head of a company, even though we, you know, he was the CEO and I was the chief culture officer and brand officer. So, you know, but we were both basically the co founders there. People would most likely look to him for answers and, you know, it was, you know, so I had to fight harder really to be heard or to figure out a way that my voice. You know, wasn't going to end up sounding. I don't know, contrary to his in a way, you know, because we obviously wanted to be a team. And I wanted people to see us as a team, you know, but people I think really always looked to Brian as the man. And I think that's the way I was going to be doing that for the answers. Yeah. I mean, I think some of that is built into the titles that we also had, you know, given ourselves, you know, I mean, I think that perpetuated some of the problem. I mean, when we started. It was quite that same way, right, because we didn't have any titles only started, you know, I mean, the staff certainly didn't look to me at all in those early years because we didn't even have roles defined or titles defined. I was just making ice cream and you had them. But I think that when we raised money and we got investors, you know, 97% of whom were men and it created that I think thing you're talking about and the idea that there would only be one. Yeah, no, that's true. I guess, but we always felt that we as co-founders would ultimately make these decisions together. I think that was the issue, right? So then outwardly, it was CEO and chief culture officer inwardly, you know, within the marriage, it was, you know, we're in this together and we're only going to make these decisions together. And, you know, the further piece that I think we faced or I faced was like the inherent sexism in, you know, just in the workplace. And even, you know, among staff that were women would certainly it was it was frustrating to me because, you know, I wanted, you know, I was really only one woman out of, you know, in the to see sweet, you know. And I think it was, you know, point and I remember some really difficult times where we would have to make decisions with a group of people and we would not necessarily agree and then people would hear us. Yeah, yeah, no, it was funny. Actually, well, what did it into happening was that sometimes they would play off of us, like just like parent, like just like kids do with their parents literally. And I don't know if that's gender is there's that's just having like two, you know, heads of the family, right. And like you know that mommy's going to be more lenient, you know, here. So let me go ask her what I can do with daddy's going to tell me I can do this because I remember people coming up to me and saying, you know, you know, I'm really struggling with this issue. And I'm wondering if you could help knowing that I would be the one to say, yeah, let me, let me see what we can do about that. And then I would go back to Brian and, you know, Brian, so I told them something completely different. And what would you, what did you develop over time to fight this stereotype? You know, I think we, I think Brian and I really developed a sense of the fact that we needed to be on the same page and had to talk about things before we meet any decisions because there were times when I would make a decision and it really pissed Brian off because he wasn't involved in it. And there were times that he would make a decision and I would be really angry because I wasn't involved in it. So we had agreed at one point that we were not going to individually make decisions until we spoke to each other about it because we recognized the fact that, you know, it was, you know, really detrimental to the company if we weren't doing that together. You know, I think it did. I mean, I think a lot of the times, you know, when people look at mom and pop or married or, or, or not necessarily mom and pop, but, you know, companies that are headed by couples that are in a relationship together. You know, they get a little scared because they think the two people that are, you know, founding that company are going to be, you know, at war with each other at some point or it's going to come to emotional and. Or it's going to split up. You know, people are going to pick sides and I mean, that obviously happens. Yeah, it does. Out there in the universe. And, you know, that night, luckily, I guess not. And, you know, I'm not going to be in that one. All right, all right. That's. All right. Let's move on to the next one. What are some of the positives and negatives that you faced in your marriage as the business grew from one shop to over a dozen. Always the glass is half full. And Jackie is always the glass is half empty, so I just, I need to put that out there because the positives are very exciting for us. - So I'll take the positives part of this question, and you'll take the negatives, that'll take great. The positives of a marriage. I mean, you're sharing all the joy, all the excitement of all the successes. I mean my God, the successes we had in Ampholhills and the relationships that we've formed with people, the Steven Spielberg stuff, with Bob Eiger, being able to share that with you, with your partner, day in and day out, it was like the greatest thrill, the greatest part of having Ampholhills together. I mean, many, obviously many couples spend 40 hours a week apart, completely separate, doing different things, and you really have a lot of fun. No idea during those 40 hours what their lives are like and and and I mean, you know They tell you stories about what their day was like, but you don't you don't really know like we do what was going on with each other and that was You know an amazing post no, I'm it's true. It was on the other hand you knew That person was doing all the time So it was constant so it's like you can You can take the same experience and it really can be you know completely positive and wonderful and You know you feel like you're sharing in this experience together and then you can take that experience and it the same time It's just if it's especially if it's negative. It's just you know really You know doing the same thing over and over again, and you know, I mean the other thing is because you're spending you know You know all this time together working on the business, you know, you're really not spending time working on the marriage to make sure that the Marriage is working and so you have to constantly You know remind yourselves or you know as as as a couple that like you need to have that time together that is not Business related where you know and you know, I mean we have friends that own a business together And they have a every Thursday they they reserve it for date night. Yeah, they they don't necessarily it's annoying But it's great. They don't necessarily go out just With each other because God then you end up talking about business, right? So they may be in up with them on some of those Thursday night, right? And we and then we respectively talk about business with the other spouse which is kind of funny and but also really Wonderful and cathartic and a nice way to spend the evening so they're just not spending talking about business They make an effort to to go out with other people Organization and structures just like we were trying to plan with the business to go to the shops every Tuesday and everyone's They like we weren't doing that in the marriage and saying correct this day is sacra sank We're gonna go out and get a babysitter and we're not gonna talk about the business We didn't we didn't really do that. I don't know. It's kind of miraculous seven ten years that you know, we still found that we still We still know, but we didn't work on it. No This definitely connects to my next question, which is what boundaries if any did you set up to separate home life from work life? Well, yeah exactly we didn't We tried at times. I mean there was you know no work at the dinner table But then you know, we'd get to bed and you know Brian What inevitably bring up something about work when I was literally just trying to either read my novel or like you know Like scroll through Instagram blindly whatever and I'm like oh, I just I can't you know It was it was not a good thing I mean we at one point I was I was very adamant that we can't talk about it as soon as we Get into bed like we have to if we're in the bedroom. We can't talk about we can talk about it in the kitchen We can talk about living room. We can talk about in the off We can talk about anywhere except not the bedroom. Yeah, no, I think that's right I think the dinner table was something that we we tried to do where we said you know We're gonna have dinner as a family right well that was also because the kids would get so frustrated too because they were Involved and they during dinner they'd be like ice cream ice cream ice cream. Oh, we hear is Everything about ice cream and you know, that's when we made that decision. Okay, so at dinner We're not gonna do that. So we're able to do that as a family with our kids But it was a challenge and then the other thing. I mean you you started to do over time was you know Only business conversations happen in the office right in a department. We live and we have separate Office space that we're doing this podcast in now and that we would only do a business Conversations in there. So I remember many times me starting to talk to you about something and you're like no We're in the bedroom. We're going over to the office. I'm like really I got to walk over to the office, but Think it was yeah, we never got to the point where it was like after 8 p.m. Or after 9 p.m. We're not gonna discuss it You know, so it was such a part of our you know lives every single day Overall what's it like to be in this together? I mean, it's it's overwhelming and all the Positive and negative ways right? I thought you said negative Brian I did I mean, I think it's Wonderful because you know Brian and I have found a way to be creative and enjoy our time together and and find a way to incorporate like earning a living and Creating a world You know together and so in that sense it's been wonderful because I think Yeah, I mean, I'll add the negative to you since you're gonna be positive So positive I mean when things are in trouble which you know you could only define now as being a time of incredible hardship and difficulty, you know, it just it adds Infinite amount of talent to the marriage to also have the financial troubles of the business or trying to deal with the business at the same time Yeah as the marriage and and I just think You know, there are there in our better moments. It's when we can Support each other through that that makes it all worthwhile, you know, and the worst for moments It's when we're at each other's throats and it and it makes it seem like I would do any job, you know to not, you know Doing the same right I see that You both really have humor in all of this has that really helped you Yes I mean, I think that that yeah, yeah Yeah, I guess it is. I mean, it's it's kind of the way we we thought about you know, ampliles and the business was like, you know, not to take ourselves too seriously, right? It's only ice cream, you know, not let's not take this life too seriously It's you know, it's gonna be over before we know it. We might as well have fun doing it and whatever you know Way that means and obviously this is like a super difficult time for everybody on so many levels and You know if we just if we continue to you know, make sure we have some levity every single day and do something that you know Doesn't have anything to do with you know, all the troubles we're going through. It's you know, it's great I think that it's after 11 and 12 years of being in business and now almost 20 years 19 19 years of marriage 19 years of marriage, you know, if you can still make each other last and you know, you're doing okay And I mean and you I know you still make me laugh, you know, just about every day And so I think that if you if you can still have that happen authentically Then you know, then you can muddle through the rest of it and also Ice cream is a connector and it brings still brings joy during this time. You're still making flavors That's true. That's right. I mean if we didn't like making ice cream then We would go make something else, but like yes ice cream is still something that puts a smile on the face Totally So you're looking to start over now open up a new shop What will you do differently this time around? Hmm. I mean everything. I mean everything we we're gonna Death I mean, I think the thing we talked about most importantly and it's just it seems so boring and so simple But it's just about putting a schedule together on a calendar. I mean my god. It's just it's so silly That something so that can feel so daunting. I mean to two people at Jack and I who are totally Structuralist rudderless without organization and our daily lives or in the businesses lives Just to get a calendar together and go okay Tuesdays are this Wednesday afternoon to that Thursday night to this and you know because I think the resistance to it is like Oh, that's death, you know, that's the death to creativity That's the death to freedom of spirit to be stuck to a schedule But I think that we've lived that way for so long that it is there actually been the death to being able to Achieve some of the things we want to do because of the lack of organization and structure. Yeah, agreed On all fronts. I mean, you know, it It's so simple. It's so easy and it can offer, you know, just such relief and Away in which we can be creative and you know have a great time and have you know these boundaries and these systems in place that are really gonna Help you know run this next business and will you have a date night in that schedule? So Lou li yes, what day of the week we have to go out now, so it's kind of But you know, we can we can certainly get creative and we can go out we can go out on long walks. Yeah - There's outdoor dining, outdoor drinking. - Yes, outdoor dining and drinking. We're gonna spring savor, yes. - Yeah. That's great. So I guess next week we'll-- - Next week we're gonna be answering all of the many amazing questions that everybody sent in. So please, if you have any other questions that you'd like to have answers to about our lives. - Business? - Our business. - Anything. - Anything. - Ice cream. - Please DM as the ice cream churns. Send me a DM and email. If you send a voice message on anchor, then please just include your email so I can respond as well. And we'll see you next week. - Thanks, Debbie. - Bye. - Thanks, Debs.