S1E6: "The Bankruptcy Process"

Welcome. We're Jackie and Brian, and this is As the Ice Cream Churns. Together, we found an ample hills creamery, one of the most beloved ice cream brands of the last decade. Then, we lost it all. We filed for bankruptcy a day before New York City shut down to the COVID-19. Now, someone else owns ample hills and we're out of work. But, we're ready to start over. Come join us for an exploration of what went wrong, and more importantly, what comes next. Our guides are close friend Debbie Rosen. She created the cracked cookies in her hit flavor, salted cracked caramel. When she's not baking, she's a therapist. We thought she could help us navigate these troubled waters. Let's get started. Hi there. Hey. Hey, Debs. Last week we left off with you telling us you filed for bankruptcy. A lot of people don't understand including myself. What it actually means. Can you explain it? I wish I couldn't. I wish I didn't know what bankruptcy means. Unfortunately, we've learned so much about the bankruptcy process. I think that when most people hear the word bankruptcy, they assume what that means is the company's going out of business. I think in a lay people's terms out there, it's certainly my impression of what it meant when I first started hearing this B word, which seemed like a dirty word, was you were going out of business. That in effect is actually not the case with most bankruptcy in the United States. In fact, we filed on March 15, 2020, Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Chapter 11, and they've all these different chapters to bankruptcy. But Chapter 11 is designed specifically around the concept of companies going in and then emerging from bankruptcy. And the reason that they do that is to basically shed the debt, the sort of debilitating debt that is crushing the company and giving them a chance to start over as a much, much leaner operation and move forward. And so the idea is that in Chapter 11, you actually are continuing to operate wall you seek a buyer for the assets of the company, for the company itself. Chapter 7 bankruptcy is what more people probably think of when they hear the word bankruptcy. That's a total liquidation lights out the second that you file. Everybody's fired. The business doors are closed and it's game over. So obviously we were heading into bankruptcy still very optimistic, honestly, because we believed that we had a brand that had a lot of value and that had a lot of a lot going for it still. And that in bankruptcy, if we could shed this overwhelming debt, this three and a half million dollars of debt that we owed to the bank, that we could come out the other side and be a healthier company. I mean, obviously the huge negative part of that is when you go into that Chapter 11, all of the current investors that own equity in that company are wiped out on a dime at that moment, including Jackie and I. I know you're in survival mode at that point, but how does that feel for that to happen? That really, it felt like the end. I mean, as much as it was not necessarily the end because it was Chapter 11 and it wasn't Chapter 7, it definitely felt very hard to swallow, knowing that friends and family and people who invested a lot of money into our business were no longer going to be a part of it anymore. And we were, you know, it was hard. Yeah, and they'd lost a lot of money. Yeah. They'd lost a lot of money investing and believing in the dream and the vision that we had sold them. And, you know, we were still there having to fight for that dream and that vision, even though we knew in the best case scenario, if we were successful, we were still leaving all those other people behind. That's right. Because there was no other way to do it, you know, just by law at that point. So, I mean, it sucked in so many ways. But, you know, we had to move forward. We had, you know, 100 to 120 staff members at the time. We had a business that still had all this possibility. And, you know, we really believed that we had this chance to find a new buyer, somebody that had the financial experience that could also support still our vision, our dream and be a partner to us. And so, part of why we felt really optimistic at this moment, again, on March 15th, was that we thought there'd be a lot of press around this notion of Amphol hill filing for bankruptcy. Because, you know, I think from a public point of view, if you go into Amphol hill and you see the long lines and you have to wait to get your ice cream, you know, I think everybody was shocked that, wait a second, what? Amphol hill is filing for bankruptcy. That doesn't make any sense. Right. We were always busy. The shops were always profitable. I mean, it wasn't, you know, it was a strange thing. At this time, what was your vision for yourselves? What were you hoping for? I mean, I think we were hoping to find a buyer that shared our vision and our creativity and our, you know, just somebody that had an absolute passion and love for the brand. Yeah. And that wanted to basically be a partner to us. I mean, we knew that we were losing all of our equity, but our hope was that we would, you know, be able to earn back some piece of equity in this company, but more importantly than that was just finding a partner. Yeah. We really wanted to work with somebody. We wanted somebody to come in, help bring financial stability to the company, and work with us in our vision to continue to grow it. Yeah. And we thought that, you know, that press that I'm talking about was going to be such a key part to that because if we could get and generate a good deal of press around going into bankruptcy, then the bankruptcy process, which is ultimately the sale process of trying to find that buyer, would have this great opportunity. Right. And so, and in fact, we did interviews in the week leading up to March 15th with the Wall Street Journal. The Wall Street Journal was going to run an exclusive, yeah, a national, the national financial periodical in the country was going to run a piece about it. And of course, on March 16th, New York City shut down, and in the days following most of the country shut down due to coronavirus. And so the author of the article called us and let us know, let us know that they were going to pull that. I mean, understandably so, who cares about the way it's kept shut in Brooklyn going bankrupt when the country and the world was hurtling into this coronavirus pandemic. And so it just immediately created this giant obstacle in the way of getting the word out. And because, you know, we were there, we, you know, we had to keep going. We had to keep finding a way to get out of bankruptcy. The thing is though, that week, right after filing for bankruptcy, we had to shut down all the stores. So again, and the factory and the factory and the idea of course, again, going into bankruptcy into chapter 11 was that we were going to continue to operate all the stores that nothing from the public's point of view would change, right. All the shops would be open. We would continue to generate revenue and generate excitement around the brand. Spring was coming, warm weather was coming, we'd be able to find a buyer that way. But coronavirus hit and we immediately had to shut down all of the stores, lay off all of the employees. Every last one was furloughed. And so in effect, it was not much different at that moment than what a chapter seven would have been. Except for we still had this chance, you know, diminishing as it was to come out of it. But, you know, the problem that we faced at that point was, you know, we had no shops open. The country was understandably focused on coronavirus. We were focused. I mean, we were living in Brooklyn. We live in Brooklyn. And it was March going into April and the virus was taking hold. We had friends that were sick. We were scared. And yet, we still also knew that we had this responsibility to try to bring the company through the bankruptcy process. Right. And we wanted to make sure we were still keeping ourselves relevant. And we were this company that buyers were going to come in and say, "Oh, well, yeah, this is a great company." We even despite the coronavirus situation. Yeah. I mean, that was the rough part. Do you think it would have made a difference if you filed after the shutdown? Do you even know? I mean, I don't know. It's really hard to think through the logistics of that. At the time we filed, we were basically out of cash. And you need a lot of cash to actually file for bankruptcy. And so we had just enough money to file for bankruptcy. And the other problem was that, as you remember, we weren't paying any of our landlords in rent. Eviction proceedings were already happening. Now all those things stopped with the coronavirus for all businesses. So I think that had we waited, we might have been able to have gotten some of the PPP loans that were out there. Those loans were not available to us because we had filed for bankruptcy. It was actually one of the first things on the application because I went to go fill it out. And so I just don't know in the end that we could have avoided bankruptcy period. We might have been able to have delayed it. But at the end of the day, I think the debt on the company was too great that coronavirus or no, it really wouldn't matter. Yeah. So in getting back to thinking about how we were trying to keep the company relevant and also just keep our minds sane. I mean, I was the one really focused on conversations with potential buyers, which we were having all the time. And Jackie was out there delivering pints and donating pints to different hospitals, which, you know, I was, you know, truth be told, deeply uncomfortable with because she was exposing herself and our family. But I knew it was important. Yeah. But the sirens were at that time nearly constant. You would just hear sirens going back and forth. And it was just overwhelming to turn on the news and see what was going on and see how taxed a health care system was and how many people were sick and how overwhelmed the hospitals were. And it just was bringing me anxiety, honestly, just being at home all the time. I wanted to do something. And so, you know, somebody had reached out from Mount Sinai and said, we would love a donation and I was like, yes. So I ran to, you know, the Red Hook factory freezer and I loaded up the car and I started just donating. And it was from that hospital, you know, I reached out to Brooklyn Hospital because I knew that, you know, those were where the sirens I kept hearing were going. And the only small thing we could do is just, you know, go into the freezer and load up the, you know, car with pines and go to, you know, the hospitals and deliver. And it just had so many conversations with nurses and doctors and security guards and just about, you know, how intense, you know, things were. I mean, they were intense. They were tense setup outside. And the one little thing I could do is bring a little joy with ice cream. So you had a stock pile of pines. How many did you have to do? So because we now knew that we were going to probably not open the shops for some time, we had a whole bunch of pines that were going to expire in, you know, what was it like June July. June July, right? So we knew we wouldn't even be able to sell that many. So we, so I had enough that I could, you know, bring those to people and it, it, crazily, I ended up donating. I think it was almost 9,000 pines ice cream. But each car load was maybe only about five or six hundred. I think you could fit in the car. Five or six hundred. Yeah. I mean, I would occasionally get an, an a furloughed employee to come and help me in the freezer. Brian also got anxious because it was just me most of the time alone in the freezer and red hug. Yeah. And if you slip and fall in the freezer, you know, it's like a tree falling on the forest. Nobody's going to hear you. Yeah. And then I just find Jackie, you know, negative 30. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's no, um, well, the, the wearing masks really helped with the warmth part. Oh, okay. Although I was alone, so it didn't really matter. But I mean, it was, it was a beautiful thing because it also just, I mean, let you connect with people. I mean, over ice cream, obviously, and over the coronavirus. And, you know, meanwhile, I was, you know, on the phone nearly every day trying to, you know, chat with people and talk to people and sell them on the idea that this, you know, was a, was a business worth saving. Um, I mean, it's probably may by now. And we set up an auction date, um, for early June. So the way bankruptcy again, the chapter 11 works is you actually set up this time to, uh, have the, you know, there's a deadline. There's a, there's a moment in time where everybody that's interested submits a bid. And then, um, a few days later, after those bids come in, there will be an auction where they would actually gather, you know, normally in the real world. In this case, we're on a Zoom call and bid for the company. And so we knew that we had this sort of deadline that we were working towards. Uh, and we were, we were, we were trying to, I was trying to do that. And Jack, Jack, he was trying to drum up, you know, excitement for the brand. And, uh, you know, we were also making, we were making the quarantine flavor. For that. We were, we were, we were, you know, in, in between, you know, hospital visits and, you know, uh, interviews with, uh, prospective buyers. We just needed some, you know, lightness. And so we, and, and, you know, getting back to, like, what we love to do most, which is to be creative and make ice cream. And so we were doing that in the kitchen. We did a series of nine different quarantine flavors where we do, uh, live, uh, Instagram, um, sessions with Debbie, the best one. I think you would have loved this. I mean, I really don't actually, but it was a zero ice cream. Okay. So we actually melted to zero and then we added you who took the ice cream. It was the trashiest flavor ever. It was so good. And so, the mix in was even, it was fast. It was the, it was, uh, like a cookie crisp. It was cookie crisp instead of a rice crispy treat. It was like a cookie crisp treat with marshmallows. So it was marshmallow cookie crisp. And we called it. I just, I'm going to digress for a second. But can you tell me how you come up with your flavors? Oh, man. I mean, that flavor Brian had actually come up with many, many years ago. Not the cookie crisp mix and that was, that was an added craziness. You would always wanted to do a Chitty Roll. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just, it's, it's all about going back to childhood. I mean, you know, the flavors we made at Amphol Hills and that we continued to make were always, um, aimed at kids and, and, and kids at heart. And so, I mean, we weren't thinking of, of, of, of, of, of fancy, uh, savory kind of creations. You know, I, the way that we'd come up with flavors is to walk down the cereal aisle at the grocery store or the candy aisle at the grocery store or the cookie aisle at the grocery store. And it's basically looking at all the other sweets and treats and desserts and thinking, how could this be an ice cream flavor? I mean, ice cream is like, it's like soup. You can literally do anything and throw anything into, into a soup or into an ice cream flavor. Uh, honestly, it was all, it's always been about that kind of effort to go younger and younger in the design of, of the flavors. I think that might be the youngest flavor, though, the Tutsi Monster. Um, yeah, that was definitely Tutsi Monster. And one of the, yeah, and one that we couldn't make at scale because you just can't melt enough Tutsi Rolls to make it for a shot. But we made these quarantine flavors and we would do, uh, every week we were doing a live Instagram feed, uh, and, and trying to against a relevant and keep our own creative juices going, uh, making ice cream, uh, and, um, talking to potential buyers. The problem was that it was really hard to convince people that this brand was, uh, going [BLANK_AUDIO] concerned because we weren't open, right? And the thing is, people were having a hard time seeing past coronavirus. I mean, we're now here talking in August of 2020. And we're still looking at a fall that's potentially going to be filled with coronavirus. It's hard to see past the coronavirus to win this business that you might be interested in buying could be a revenue generator for you and really return that money. And so we knew we needed to get back out there and sell again to try to help show that happening. And so in May. Yeah. That was, it was, yeah, it was just about in May. More early weekend, I believe, maybe even the weekend before that. Yeah, it was, it was a couple of weekends. Just the weekends. We started opening it was just Brian, myself and our two kids, Nona and Kaleo and who were incredibly helpful. Yeah. We would open up a shop and at first we just sold pints and half pints outside. And people were just, just so happy that we were back open even for, you know, you know, four hours Saturday and Sunday. I think it was just some days we were doing it. Yeah. And we did it every weekend for three or four weekends. And it was, we did it at the Gawana shop, the Vanderbilt shop. Yeah. And it was, I mean, the lines were long and it was really reassuring. And we ended up selling as much ice cream in four or five hours as we did on a regular Saturday in May. At our Vanderbilt shop being open for 10 hours. Of course, you know, the reason was is that people were stockpiling pints. You know, they hadn't had ample hills in a couple of months and they came and they bought four pints, six pints. Some people bought eight to ten pints. And so they were buying a lot of ice cream. Yeah, I mean, they were just so happy that we were, you know, most of the community was shut down. I mean, everything was. And here, you know, we knew and it was, it was, it was hard to be closed during that time. Obviously, we couldn't be open. And there was no way that, you know, we could, but it was, it was just one of those added things that, you know, so many disappointments and so much sadness during that time that like, ample hills was open. It was just the best thing people would come up and say, Oh, my God, I'm so happy you're open. And, and thank you also for donating to all the healthcare workers because they had seen that we'd been doing that and, you know, they wanted to come out and support us and, you know, we heard you're in bankruptcy, but don't worry, you're going to make through it. It was just a really positive, wonderful, you know, community, you know, feeling at that at that time, even though it was still pretty scary. And we didn't know how things were going to end up. Yeah. And so we did that for a few weeks. Yeah. And we shared that with all the potential buyers. And we were, you know, still somewhat optimistic at that point. These potential buyers are all of them going to run ample hills as is or do they have the option of not doing that? Well, for sure. I mean, anybody could have bought the company and just closed the company down. I mean, you know, I suppose if somebody wanted to buy the company and shut it down because they were concerned as it being a competitor, or if another rival ice cream company wanted to buy it and then turn all of the shops into Baskin Robbins or Hagen Dosses or, you know, Ben and Jerry's, I suppose that would have been possible. Certainly those were possible outcomes. I think that because ample hills was not a, you know, a giant concern, it was, you know, still a relatively small business, you know, with sales of $10 or $11 million and still relatively local to the Northeast. And one that was really a brand that people had this passion for, we were pretty optimistic that in the vast majority of the people that we were talking to about buying the company were just fans and wanted to save it and be able to, you know, we even had one celebrity chef that was, you know, there at the very end that we were really pulling for that couldn't get across the finish line. But, you know, he was just a big fan and wanted to find a way to help continue it on. Unfortunately, by the time the actual bidding process ended, there was no auction because in order for there to be an auction, you need to have more than one bid. And unfortunately, there was only one single bid after all that three months of the bankruptcy process, dozens and dozens of conversations and interviews. There was one single bid for $1 million from a company out of Oregon, a machine parts company that put in the offer. And, you know, that was tough. Do you think that was due to the coronavirus or were there other factors involved? Yeah. I think 110 percent, the only reason that we ended up in this position was the coronavirus. Obviously, we could take complete responsibility for the mistakes that we made that got us into the bankruptcy. I mean, you know, who else was running the company? I mean, it was us. So, obviously, we spent too much on a factory. We build up to big a factory. We made those mistakes that led to filing for bankruptcy. But have there not been a coronavirus pandemic? Then the business would have continued to have operated and been a successful concern. And it would have inspired a lot more interest. I mean, the interest that we even saw in March that had fizzled by May when New York City was running up the virus counts. And it was just, you know, it seemed like there was no end in sight. And so, I think that at the end of the day, you were just left with people looking potentially for a steal. I mean, to be able to buy the Ampholose brand for a million dollars, you know, ultimately, it was a great deal. But it took to their credit. I mean, it took their foresight to know that they'd have to sit on something that might lose money for a good long time before returning money to their own investors. But getting it for a million dollars seemed like a risk worth were taking. And I think that even though we had our doubts when we heard that it was a million dollar offer and there was a machine parts company, we tried to keep an open mind. I mean, we really did. But the first time we spoke to the new owner, that was a tough call because we were excited to talk to him. We started the call by saying congratulations, you know, and it was clear from, you know, immediately that they just didn't really want us around. No, they didn't want us. There's a, I mean, there's a sense that, you know, and I get it to some extent, this idea that, you know, a new buyer comes in, you know, it's easier to not have the founders around, right? I mean, the founders have big egos, they've got vision and dreams, they've got their opinions about everything. And I just think they thought this might be easier if they're not around. And, you know, he told us a story on that very, very first phone call about all soldiers going into war know that, you know, individually, those soldiers are expendable. I mean, he wanted us to know that that applied to us too. And I think that was hard. That, that, I don't know if it should have, but it, that came as a shock to us that, that somebody would feel that way about our potential role. I mean, every other interview that I'd done and every other conversation I had with a potential buyer always started with that buyer saying, what are your, Jackie's plans? I mean, because if you're not going to stick around with this new company, we want to know now because we're not going to put in a bit like we don't want any part of a company if you're not there. I mean, this is a, you know, your brand and, you know, we want to support it. And it was unfortunately not the message we got from him at that immediate moment. And I, I remember even in that first phone call telling him the story of Ben and Jerry because, you know, Jerry has become a friend in a mentor. I think we talked about that in another episode, but Ben and Jerry are still at Ben and Jerry's. They're still there. They're sort of figureheads or brand ambassadors now, right? But they sold the company 20, 25 years ago now to Unilever, which is a giant, you know, company, international company. And I said, like, if Ben and Jerry left Ben and Jerry's today, I don't think that, you know, the brand of Ben and Jerry's would suffer that much moving ahead, right? It's really well established for decades and they're vision has been there. But if Ben and Jerry had left Ben and Jerry's 25 years ago, would the last 25 years have been the same? Would it have had the same creativity? Would it have had that same thing? I don't know. I don't think so. And that's sort of how we felt about our roles. It wasn't called Brian and Jackie's or Jackie and Brian's. It was called Ample Hills, but it was still our thing that we had created. Yeah, I mean, it came from two people, a screenwriter and a teacher essentially, that we weren't looking to start a business for the sake of a business. We were looking for something more, something more for our community, something more for our lives, for our kids' lives. It was a family, mom, pop organization, their business to begin with. And we made some mistakes as we grew clearly. But, you know, we still thought we had roles to play. Yeah. Was he interested in your creative input, your ideas about the culture? Because that's really the backbone of Ample Hills. I mean, I think he gave some lip service to that. I don't think at the end of the day that he felt very strongly about that. Otherwise, I don't think he would have felt that we were expendable. You know, and I just think that they felt like we had created a brand and that brand had a lot of creativity to it, but that we had done that, you know, past tense. That it existed and now they could carry it forward, you know, with our help or without our help. And we sort of felt like, you know, if it's a technology company, or if you've invented a little doohickey or a widget or a software company, it's a different thing than an ice cream brand. A lot of people make perfectly good ice cream. You know, our ice cream recipes are all published out there in cookbooks. And there's nothing proprietary about the technology or about our ice cream. It's the very definition of a brand and the idea of storytelling and creativity that goes into it. So to us, it was a living breathing thing that continued to, you know, that you would think that you would want to continue to have to us around. And you know, I just remember you writing these long, I mean, really, you know, I wrote, you know, wrote all these long, very impassioned emails about, you know, what the brand meant to us, what, you know, trying to explain to him how we felt about it. Defending our worth. Defending our worth. And honestly, as a woman, to defend my worth to this man that just, you know, kind of was coming in there and taking a way like, really a part of my family. I mean, honestly, that's the way it felt. I know that's not, you know, it's business, ultimately. But for me, it was very, very personal. And I just, it was just intense. It was too much. I couldn't do it anymore. And, you know, as much as I wanted to continue on with Ample Hells as much as the vision is still there, you know, it's still there. It's like, you know, it hasn't gone away, you know, in the heart and in the feelings around all of it. It just, it was too painful. It was just, I couldn't take being devalued, like literally every single time I would interact with this person and write an email and get another email back. It was, it was terrible. I didn't want to do it. I'm like, I'm too old for this. I can't do it. Now knowing, you know, now having gone through this process, do you feel that you were naive about what the outcome would be? Yes. Yeah. I think that would be a fair assessment. Yeah. I mean, I think we have always believed in this creative vision and the beauty of what we had made. And the goodness. Like I just feel like we had so much brands like equity and loyalty and, you know, and good energy, you know, in the community, you know, just good, good energy. Like that's like good vibes. Like we've always put them out there. And, and I've always believed in that, that karma, that good vibe energy that was coming from around. And yes, that's completely naive. Yeah. Yeah. It is. And the thing is is when you're in bankruptcy, all bets are off. I mean, you, you lose all control of any, if any potential outcome. So I think, you know, it's like the serenity prayer. I mean, you know, what can you control and what you can't control. And we were attempting to control the uncontrollable. I mean, we were doing everything we could to set ourselves up for success. And I think we did what we had to do in all the different ways. But we ultimately couldn't control it. And in the serenity prayer, knowing the difference. Yes, knowing the difference. Yeah. Sometimes that's the hard part of the serenity part. Damn it. Yeah. But after, you know, it was about a two or three week process of negotiating with the new buyer. And, you know, ultimately after, you know, arguing for our worth, you know, there were job offers that came around. I think it's important to note we didn't just not get those. But it's just the process was so debilitating and frustrating that it was, it was just hard to accept the idea of going to work every day, knowing that we would be batting heads. You know, if the process to get there was so difficult, the process to continue on, I think would have been even more difficult. So yeah, I mean, you know, ultimately it's like you go to work and you want to feel good about it. I mean, part of my position as a teacher when I was teaching, I only left teaching. I loved what I was doing. I really did was to be a part of Amphal Hill's full time to be, you know, to focus on it. And, you know, to feel like we were going to go into this new partnership, which wasn't really a partnership at all. You know, with somebody who didn't really want us around, with a very hard decision because we've got kids and, you know, we've got, we live in Brooklyn and we love Brooklyn and, you know, New York City is my home. And, you know, and now I'm kind of saying, okay, well, this company, people don't even live in New York that are running it, you know, are, you know, are going to take over it. And I'm not going to be able to be a part of it. We're not. This is an ours. So we left. I mean, we made that decision. Right. And for better or worse, it's consistent with who you've been from the beginning. I think that's true. I think that's true. I mean, the hard, you know, I mean, besides just the emotional loss, you know, we, we didn't end up with a dime, obviously, from the sale of the bankruptcy sale because that all went to our creditors and to the bank. I just went to the bank mostly because unfortunately, most of the other people we owed money to architects and designers and contractors, you know, didn't get paid because the company didn't sell for enough. And it's just, that part also is hard. Were you offered, what were you offered or were you offered anything more worthwhile? We were just, we were offered, you know, jobs. We were offered salaries to, you know, go and work. But, you know, we didn't want to be, you know, we just didn't feel like we could be a part of that new company and work with them. You know, and so, you know, at the end of the day, we left. And, and, you know, the benefit of leaving with nothing was that we could leave without a non-compete, you know, a non-compete means that, you know, you can't go and start another ice cream company or do something like that. And so, we would left without that, we left without a non-sclozier. So, we could still sit here and tell our story. And that was important to us, you know, in any effort to start over, required us to be able to tell our story. Yeah, I mean, it was, it was hard, but, you know, we really didn't want to be stuck, either, you know, not, not, you know, to not be able to tell our story, not start over, to not do something on our own. Which is what we're, you know, which is what we're doing now with this podcast and we're also working on a plan to hopefully start over as well, which, you know, we're going to share with you in the coming weeks that, you know, first there's still some obstacles on the road ahead to say the least, but, you know, we'll get to them in the coming weeks. Yeah. And, you know, we're also working on an episode for listed questions and comments, and we want to hear what you want to know. So if there's anything that you've heard that we've spoken about, we'd love to to hear your questions that we can, you know, shed some light onto you. So let us know, please DM as the ice cream churns, and we'll hopefully get to that in the coming weeks. And I think that's it for this week. Okay. See you next week. Thanks, then. Bye. Bye.