S1E6 - "Football, Feminism, and You" with Jenn from The Community Rewatch Podcast

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I mean that was what the whole show for me was about though, was communities helped me form community with people and with like fan art creators and the cast and writers and fans and so I really feel like even 10 years later it's just amazing that we're still talking about community. And people who meet that for a community. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you know, I'm my background or what I do. I'm kind of a digital marketer. I'm more of an analyst these days. But you know, so going into the process of saying, well, you know, if I do this podcast, like I started off real slow at the beginning in September and then I did one in October and then it's kind of like, well if I'm going to really do this, I'm going to do my whole, you know, startup, social media, blitz and I really started uncovering these little bastions of community fans and started with Twitter and then I went over to Instagram and then I found this community discord chat thing, which is what the kids, I don't know, do these days. And then, you know, the subreddit and then there's a Facebook, a couple Facebook groups. And so, you know, it was like, oh, this is great, you know, between all of that, there's probably, I don't know, I don't know how many active people in the subreddit, but you know, close to, you know, three, four hundred thousand people between all of those places. And you know, it's just, it's pretty cool. How many of them are really active? I'm not sure, but I'm really pleased to see, you know, people who are listening to the podcast and, you know, so that was me. One of the reasons I really wanted to say, no, like, I don't want to just be this, this, you know, competitor, I want to, you know, be a little seat, little seat community with you. And as I said in my tweet to you, because I very much not going to have, I have just one perspective. I, you know, I, you know, I went to a community college early on and, you know, was in those kinds of study groups. But ultimately, my perspective is pretty limited and I wanted to really hear more from you. And so I've just did a long introduction. And so Jen, tell me more about your podcast and you. Yeah. So, I started watching community in, oh gosh. It was after, it was the after the season one finale aired. I've seen advertisements for it. I've watched NBC. I love to be office. That kind of thing. A friend of mine told me, you should really watch the show. You're really can't like it. So I thought, okay, you know, I'll get it. I'll give it a few episodes and I'll see if I do. I wasn't really hooked as soon as I watched it until I hit the episodes, but also I'm in the middle of you. And then that suddenly became like the episode where I found myself laughing out loud. And I was like, okay, I think this is it. I think I'm getting what they're saying. And so I watched all of you know, season one when the show was on hiatus and then watched season two and then time season three rolled around. I was kind of in a dead end job and I went to call for creative writing. Not my passion, I've always been my passion. And I wasn't really doing that on my job. So I told the same friend I was like, I think I'm going to start writing reviews of community because I really love the show. It's really great. I've been doing it for so long. He tweeted back to me one time when I asked him probably a few years after the season four episode or season four episodes that aired and I said, you know, you know, it's been a couple of years. I don't want to be the dead horse, but you still really don't like these because I feel like there's at least a handful of these episodes that really capture the magic still have it. He was like, well, it's not my cup of tea. Well, it is my cup of tea, but you know, you understand. Yeah. And, you know, and I, I respect him and I'm not sure. Did you listen to Harmony Town much for you? A Harmony Townite at all? I, I was not. I mean, I, I'm not going to lie. I have a complicated kind of relationship with Dan Harman. They saw a lot of things that have come out after the show and did and that stuff. And, you know, I will always appreciate him for what he did for community. I know a lot of people who watch community follow him and his other project. I just never. And one of those people, but, you know, the fact that he helped with my community reviews and therefore my future list, I also got. I will never be lost on me. So I think that's the, it's always something that I'm, you know, at least appreciate that much. I'm not sure if that's what I'm going to be. I'm not surprised and I totally absolutely understand your perspective. And, you know, and I think that's what's kind of interesting about him that, you know, I definitely see those ugly warts and I think he would, he lived them out loud with people. And I think we're definitely, we're certainly talking about the Megan Gaines thing. And I can tell you from my perspective, it was when he did his apology, I know we're getting all over the place, but I love it. I think it's going to set up the conversation about the episode. So, but when he did that and, you know, I thought it was a really meaningful apology, but what I appreciated most was Megan's response and I really look forward to, you know, if she would want to even broach the subject, but I at least tell her that, you know, as a guy and, you know, it was really meaningful to go to just search through, especially with the me-tooth moments. It was, it's very, very moving to just kind of step back and say, wow, you know, what, was I totally a cool dude to everyone that, you know, all of the women that I interacted with? And I'm sure you've had conversations with other guys and your, and other female friends and that kind of thing, but I just wanted to say that's where I come from. I come from a very, like this, you know, Dan, you know, publicly doing his thing and Megan just, you know, handling it like a champ. Yeah. It just was, yeah, I, and I think there's other moments where Dan has failed in and then, you know, kind of worked his way back to, worked his way through it. And so I wouldn't say that, you know, he's not an angel and you certainly, by any means, but I appreciate the, the journey that, he, I've gone through by listening to him and, and actually wasn't a big Dan, I wasn't, I just, I was kind of agnostic to Dan until, believe it or not, actually until his Whiting Wong's podcast in like 20, 20, 27 to 2018, I think it was. I had actually not really engaged with him much as like a entity until he did the podcast with Jessica Gow. And that was that moments where like it was, you know, he was deconstructing himself and then he does this in regards to race and, and writers rooms and those kinds of things. But then he goes through the Megan Gans experience and, and, you know, I, yeah, it was very, very, I was going through stuff too with like, where was, yeah, anyway. So I just, I can appreciate the, the moments and the complexity to it. Yeah. And I mean, Megan Gans' response is definitely something that I will always, and I, I will always admire Megan Gans just as a writer, some of my favorite episodes of the show. Absolutely. And she's just brilliant. I mean, she's a cooperative Twitter here. That brilliant is not lost on me and, and knowing then behind the scenes kind of what was going on just so as billions, I know that she felt with a lot of things, so her response was incredibly classy. And, and just indicative of the kind of person she clearly is. And, you know, we are in this age where things come out about creators and people who have, have made content that we love. And then we have these complicated emotions towards them because it's like, can I support this thing anymore? Can I be a fan of this thing anymore? Is this person you're a game boy? Like, what do I do with this? And you have to hold that tension of like, this person has created a thing that I love is problematic. And that doesn't mean that this thing is bad. This doesn't mean that community is, you know, it's terrible because, you know, Dan Hammond has his stuff and, and he created it. But, you know, that's just the conversation that I think has been so illuminating over the last, you know, a couple years and definitely decade. It's just being able to walk through that with, with fans of the show too, because it's, you know, kind of all came out after the show ended and, and just being able to kind of have those, those points of dialogue. Still, I think it's great. I think that that's what, when a social media is used for, and he uses powers for good. That is what we can do with it is we can have dialogues, when we can form community and we can have these discussions. And that's always great. And what people are complex, no one is completely good, no one's completely, you know, black and white. It's, it's, most of us are operating it in shade of gray, but I think that, I think there are responses regardless of, you know, how you feel about who the right is and the wrong. They did respond in a way that was indicative of just, okay, that's, that's an accessible, coffee response. And they said, okay, we're moving on now. And, you know, we left it there. So, yeah, so I appreciate that. And I definitely both, you know, appreciate that, and that's a response too for that, for that. So. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, I have two daughters that, you know, like I said, in our previous pre-conversation, two young ones, six and nine. And I think about these things. And, you know, I know that not every dad does. So, but I, you know, I actually actively pursue it. And I, I want to, I don't want to be told I'm wrong. I just, I want there, I want to know when I'm wrong. And I want to know, like how I can help. And I want to know how I can, you just be a good friend as a guy to every person that I interact with. And so, yeah, I, I, that's one of the reasons I wanted to, you know, make, you know, six seasons in a podcast. Be, be that friend to the community, rewatch podcasts. And, and, and your perspective on, we can jump into the, the, the episode if you want. Yeah, yeah, the great, okay. So, we're talking about the football feminism and you episode. And, you know, I like to point out, I think it's, we pointed out maybe in our, in our chat, lead up to this that, it's written by Hillary Winston. So, it's written by one of the, the female writers. Yeah. Do you know anything about her? Do you have any perspective on? I don't, I don't know much about her. I was trying to go back. I know we had had this kind of conversation before. One of the things that I, I kind of was passionate about, I think I had to look it up to article that I wrote about it was in 2014, was just the, um, just the balance of women and men in the lightroom and the community over the years, and what that looks like. But, um, you know, for it to be the success of her, then, her is written by very Winston. Um, it was super great. I know she was not on that, um, very long. So, yeah, I think she might have been season two as well. I was doing a list of, yeah. I was trying to look that up to like which, um, you know, one of the hard things when you look at shows is the, is turnover with staff and, and new people come on and, and people leave all the time, which is totally, totally normal, but it can shift the tone of a writer's or a commercial. But I know a lot of women, um, were, you know, making out a lot like a good number of them. We're on the show, the first two seasons, and then by season three, a lot of people shifted off staff to go work on other projects. Um, and a lot of them do these two projects and things like that to you, a lot of comedies that, you know, I also then loved. Yeah. Um, yeah. But, yeah, they did know that she was on a show for a shorter period of time than, than like, night and dance, or instance. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, Megan came on at season two, and I'm not sure who, but, and there's Emily Cutler who's in, in season, um, season two, and we then still had Carrie. So, yeah, Emily Cutler, and then, um, you had like, uh, Steve Baclone and Annie Mebbing, and I'm gonna switch her last name, that they were like a writing duo, and we'll on a show for a while too, so you'd have her on, um, and both of them, but they wrote Rachel Holiday Music. Um, but yeah, so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, one of the things that Andrew, told me, Andrew guest, uh, uh, season one and two writer, he did say that there was a particular, um, grind to the, the writer's room. It was a lot, you know, at least one, you know, overnight every, every week, um, and, you know, he was, luckily, he, he wasn't married, it didn't have kids at the time, and, uh, but he did say he got burned out after two seasons and, um, so I, I, I don't know what, you know, I, I look forward to talking to Hillary and Megan and, and get their perspective and, um, uh, just because I, you know, what goes into, I, I don't know, I don't even know what I don't know sometimes when, when it comes to the dynamics of, of picking shows and, yeah, well, whenever writers room is different, so you listen to different creators talk about how things are structured and like, community with the writers room, from what I understand, what structure different is in New Girl, like, New Girl, um, with Maryweather and Brett Aaron, Dave Stingle, talks quite frequently about how they had three separate rooms at an A, storyline, a B storyline room and a joke room. So that's like just one of the examples I think of who we did, they structured specifically their show, but that not all comedy is necessarily kind of structured or into the same way. Now it would definitely be interesting to kind of hear more about that, what that process is and what the process looks like. Because it's interesting, because I'm a writer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it sounds like what, you know, very early on they had a couple of weeks of of just beginning, like they started with, you know, who is this person? You know, who is breaded and what what are they, you know, so they spent a long time kind of incubating the characters, but yeah. Well, you can definitely see that early on in the episode. You can see, um, getting out like I said, it's been a while since I rewatched a community in part or in full. And it's it has been a long time since I rewatched any of season one. And when I was rewatching the pilot even like, I don't like forgot about so much of the stuff that was on the show. And there's an outside and like, there's fun light out there. And, you know, just you could tell even in football, it isn't a new, just that they're starting to kind of figure out what character pairings, what works and with, you know, what is funny and who these characters are and what makes them tick. And I think that, you know, you started to see that, especially like with Donald, Trevor and Danny. So do you being put together and that really working and clicking. So still early on there, you know, it's natural they're trying to figure out who are these people and what makes them funny and what makes them relatable and endearing to our audience as well. Yeah. And so Hillary also wrote politics of human sexuality from the STD fair. Yes, you are correct because I talked about, I talked about the bottom of the new. I did a rewatch and a podcast episode about it and my guest here is also an associate senator and for my website and a friend of mine commented that that is one of our favorite episodes and it's a very underrated episode and Hillary also wrote that. So you are correct thanks for arguing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, has one of my favorite lines, Abed says if you're gonna have sex tonight, don't use condoms, you know, very very amazing. You forget, I forgot so much of the early season because, you know, community got really big after and by big I mean like they realized after modern warfare like oh they can start to do those kind of things and people respond to them. So it's often funny to me to go back and rewatch episodes like a bottom as a new or like the Stephen the pilot or Spanish one and to remember how simple the stories were back then like and how everything nothing in this episode was crazy. Yeah. It was just a normal day or two or three at Green Dale and yet it is the first episode that hooked me. Yeah, yeah, there's nothing wacky, there's nothing genre about these beginning episodes. Yeah, there's no homage, there's no kind of sticks and and I mean that's one of the things that I kind of always go back and forth on is that the show did so often is an use one of my favorite two reasons because it's just so good all around. It's so funny, it does so many things well and it wasn't bigger grand or no mage or some out of the box thing and you know I always go back and forth on whether or not I kind of have nostalgia for these episodes where I kind of miss season one. You know on the same hand for media okay off theory is a short genius and that you know is way more concepty out of the box than this episode but you know I think that that kind of the game that the show had to play and sometimes it did well and sometimes it did well but balancing those very normal episodes with those very high concepts. Yeah yeah and then they're just they're giving a lot of this backstory and you know they're working through the the tension of the will they want they between you know Jeff and the Annie and and Britta and those kinds of things and so you know this episode feels more romcom sitcom than some of the other ones and I and I say that in a good way I'm a fan of those both of those things and but I think that's because we're getting this voice and I think that's why it's important for us to stop and say Hillary wrote this episode so it's gonna have just this you know this voice that you know like they should stop the TV when you know like and they should make a point to say written by so and so be I don't know I just why that's what I'm doing this podcast because we have to know who wrote this because it just provides so much depth and information to what you know why the the characters are gonna act just slightly differently than than they did in previous episodes yeah and I mean that's one of the things that I mentioned to when I rewatch this is that I won't say my favorite all my favorite episodes of community were written by women to get off a favorite meal today I'm serious probably so when my favorite's not Christmas kind of absolutely brilliant but like you can there is something to having a balanced writer stuff and that those voices coming out in these episodes and in Nightingan's episodes but it's just so it's so necessary and you know apart from the fact that Hillary Winston is literally in this episode for every second the fact that she has her voice in that I think it's so important but that she you can tell that she understood what made each of these characters funny and I think that's what makes this whole episode funny and the first thing that ever made me laugh out loud at a show is the conversation between Jeff and Troy on the football field where you know he's like in your blood and then they go back and forth and I just cracked up and I don't know what it was about it I just was like this is so funny because this is so these characters and I'm getting a sense now of what each of these characters is and then you grab Annie and get her personality in this episode this is a great episode where they found such a great newster Pierce with Dee Tellan like that I was like I'm not expecting enough pairing and yet it worked like it and Britta and Shirley story which I will forever lament the fact that this is pretty much the only solid Britta Shirley story we really see I mean we kind of see some later on but like just you can see that they were shaping Britta's character and Shirley's character not just those people but like obviously as women too and that I think what Hillary Winston really brought to this was just understanding that you know the comedy comes from the characters and the actors and their natural bent toward a no humor and it really comes through it's like I said it's still one of my favorite episodes and this was season one as a physics and it so holds up as one of the great experts yeah I agree I think you have a balance in my notes I have you know Troy and Annie Jeff and Troy Britta and Shirley you know Dean the Dean and Pierce you have you know all of these characters going you know going back and forth and you have you know just think like Troy and Annie you know Annie is and she's balancing between Jeff and and and Troy and when she's with Jeff she's formidable and and when she's with Troy she's he's acting like she's back in high school. I think early on Jeff you can just see him basically wanting to stir the pot with people and with the study group so that kind of gets on your nerves after a while you're like okay come on just learn a lesson and let it spin it. I think as you chart his progress over the series and the fact that these people become the people who he tells them at the end of the series like he's changed my life forever and I love you. You get to watch that growth and they're always going to be moments where I look at Jeff and I'm like oh Kellan early Jeff can't you just learn your lesson already but you know I think because he's played by Joel McAillthew and Joel a naturally pretty endearing person and he has he has a way of portraying Jeff that is not just straight up just like you see those moments of darkness you see the Malady Lord at the end of this episode so you're like okay you're not all bad. Yeah if he was Charlie Sheen it would be like oh yeah exactly but like you know it's Joel McAillthew so you're like okay he's you know he has a way of understanding that you know just where is not all bad he's just he's so used to be one way and he's never had anyone force him to be another way like his whole life has just been him doing this and he's been fine until he needs people who go that's not fine and guess what we're gonna make you pay consequences for that then I think you start to see Jeff actually grow because it forced to. So yeah, I mean I think that if they were meant to not always like what Jess does, but also in this episode one of my favorite things is that you're also not meant to like what Annie does just because Jess selfishness is more prevalent doesn't mean that Annie's was any better. Annie was trying to control and manipulate Troy into liking her, you know, and she wasn't doing it out of fitness of her heart entirely. She had an old theory of motive and Jess called her out on it and was like, "You're not as good as I am yet." And I think that that is kind of what makes community so great to me is that each of these characters in their own way has things that about them seem good that then when taken too far are actually really selfish and not great at all. You know, they can be not all wonderful and that's what makes them complex. And so just like Jess is selfish in this episode, Annie is just selfish too and she's just better hiding it or masking it in some ulterior motives. Yeah, and I think you've got to expect that Troy knows somewhat what Annie is doing. I mean, you know, like he's not completely as worthy as so. Again, he's getting something out of it. He's like getting the smartest person in class, helping out with the study, you know? So, leaving Troy is kind of like, and whatever, like, you know, I'll throw her a bone essentially. And again, kind of like what Frida does to Shirley and me. That's like, "Oh, I was just throwing you a bone." Well, that's hitting me like, and that's rude and I don't want that, you know? So I think that's what I'm saying. But any day, all kind of know that there's not entirely pure intentions here, but they also are getting the thing out of it. They want to get out of it. So, he gets a good grade, and he gets kind of Troy, and Jess hoping that she'll get his face removed from posters. So, yeah. Yeah. Can you unpack the B story of as a female to us men like the women going in pairs? Yeah, absolutely. Can you be the translator for us? It is so accurate. It is like, I was talking with my friends about this, and I think that that's what makes this episode so endearing that backstory of Frida and Shirley, because that is what we do. We seek support, and we have emotional conversations as time goes by, I think I saw it on Twitter or social media or something about how women in the bathroom are like, you're a great type woman. If you ever go to a bar or a club or somewhere like a restaurant at night, you will meet random women who will just compliment you in the bathroom or give you a pep talk or be the shoulder that you cry on. Or it's just an interesting kind of bond that happens. I don't know why. I cannot explain it to you. There is just something about women and community in the bathroom. I love this story and all of the women that I've talked to who are fans of community who love this, we all are like this mispechen accurate representation of what it's like to be a woman and to have female friendships, because it makes such a brilliant news on the show's part to make Frida that focus. Because you can tell even just by brief conversations that Annie, those she might have been outcast in high school, like Annie still had female friendships. And kind of against that sense, where at and Shirley is very much like Shirley and Annie, because they sit next to each other, you get to see that sense of their little dynamic. But Frida, Frida's never really had that relationship before. So Frida doesn't understand that this is a friendship news. She thinks, oh, it's just this woman from the study group who I'm trying to throw a bone to and Shirley sees it as she's rejecting my friendship. It takes it very personally. And I think at this point in the series too, with knowing that Shirley is divorced and I'm sure that people pity Shirley for a long time. She doesn't want people to pity. She doesn't need people to pity. What she wants is to genuinely be a friend with Frida and Brida wanders that at first because she's never been taught the intricacies of female friendships. And she's never really had that relationship before. And so she, you watch her throughout the series, kind of try and struggle with and learn those dynamics. And even like Jeff calling her out, like, do you not understand what this is? And her being genuinely confused is an indicator that this is abnormal for her. But I just find it so, it's such an endearing story to me, because it's so accurate and also because it's such a great look at Shirley Brida and her development and Shirley and her development. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. First, I want to say that men who are listening to this, I think it's great to know that, like, that's real. And good for you, women, that you have that for each other. Guys are like, you don't talk in the bathroom, I straight. Yeah, no, I really am looking up luck about that basically affirms that, like that men, it's an unspoken rule that men do not talk. Yeah, we shone the guys who don't, especially the guys who don't wash their hands. Those are, that exists anyway. But it's great that that's, that's, you know, comes from a reality and, you know, Hillary brought that into the episode. And I wanted to ask you about, because I, following the discord, following the subreddit and getting some of the conversations that, I think someone lamented, you know, how early Brida was, you know, smart, cool, all these things, and then she gets dumb and, and, and, and wanted your thoughts. And, you know, I'll give you my, my opinion real quick, and then you can deconstruct it. I actually think that she's been full of crap the whole time, but she gets, she's very thoughtful and I think she just has this facade that she's put up this, you know, I follow radio heads and, you know, and, and those kinds of thing, you know, like, and yeah, she, I don't think she's got the, the credit that she, she's not developed, like she should have been and, you know, she becomes a punching bag often. But, you know, I don't, I would argue that I think she's always been that and there was just this facade that made this, this illusion that she was something else. And, anyway, I'd love to hear what you think about Brida and her. I mean, I, I'll, I'll try and make the short, because I could talk for hours about the stuff, you know, characters on this show. That's why I'm talking with you. It's great. They were done dirty. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just, just as a context, like, I, I told you I did a brief look at the writer's room and episodes that were written by women in my favorite shows and community was the one that kind of spurred my curiosity and not. And, you know, in the first few seasons, half of the episode in those, you know, half of those seasons, sorry, so in those two seasons, about half of the episodes were written by women, like, or co-written by women. And then that dropped from season three on to no more than 27 percent. I know I guess 31 percent is the highest in season four or four out of 13 of the episodes. So by the end of the series, two out of 13 episodes were written by women, and that's 15 percent. So I feel like in order to have the conversation about, like, still in the show, I always go back to, okay, well, is there representation in the writers room or in these episodes? Is that maybe part of the problem? And my argument is, of course, that is part of the problem that representation does matter in writers rooms. And, you know, it's not the end all be all, but I think that it's not, sorry, it's not the end all be all in the case of Britta specifically. But I do think that Britta was, as I rewatched the early seasons, she was jaded for sure. She was, has seen a lot of life. And she really, in the first season, her goal was to protect the study groups from Jeff. Like, she, in the pilot, kicks Jeff out and is like, yeah, well, thanks for admitting to ask why you're here. You don't want me here anymore, like leave us alone, because now that you've admitted you're a terrible person, I don't want to have anything to do with you, because I think she's seen too much of life to know that Jeff is. She still has this stochness about her though, that in endearing stochness. Even in the episode where she tries to pull it a full flight, there's just stories where you're like, gosh, Britta, you're trying so hard. And I think over the seasons, we definitely see her dumps down. I mean, Jeff makes a comment, you seem smarter when I met you later on. And that kind of always breaks my heart. Like, yeah, she kind of was, and now her name is his to make a small mistake. I think that she's always been, you know, Even in the early episodes talking about her, you know, activist days, not kind of thing, I think she's always been someone who wants to change the world. She really does want to make the world better. She just doesn't really know what caused the jump on. She kind of jumps all over the place with it. And she kind of tries to pretend that she doesn't need people in her. She does. And that's the prime example in this episode because she basically like rebuts surely. Well, I was just throwing your phone and surely kind of breaks down that wall until British like, I've teed along my whole life. You know, I've never really had some old friends and she kind of, you see that, you know, a village. Yeah. But then, you know, later on in the show, she just kind of, I think once they took away, and maybe they were just me, this was just me posture, I think it might not be the case. But I really think that the Jeff Britta, Annie of it all kind of, the show not understanding how to navigate that kind of screwed over both of those women because just like, Britta kind of went from being like this idealistic, you know, person who kind of is endearing to a dumbed down version of that. Annie would be either a child or like a 50 year old woman depending on what they want to be in an episode, you know. And so I think for, I think once Jeff and Britta kind of was complete, they really were like, well, what do we do with Britta now? I guess we'll just make her the better one joke. So that's what she becomes, which is my theory is that that is what ends up happening. But I do agree with it. I think for the end of the series, she starts to find herself again, and especially even though I'm not a huge fan of Susan Sixx, like Britta being able to find her place toward the end of the show is evident. But I think it took a long, really bumpy way to get there. Yeah, I think the same could be said about Chang. Yeah, so 100%. You know, and I don't even think that's, you know, because I think who's going to say is, I don't even think that's necessarily because, you know, there wasn't representation, you know, of people of color in their room. Well, I do think that's the case, probably with Shirley, as much as not having, you know, women in the writer's room. So, yeah. But I'm glad that you said Chang too, because I was trying to remember that all of Chang's different identities and all of the things in my, they put him all over the map of Tool It Chang was supposed to be for the show. But, you know, I'm going to say I love Susan One Chang as like teacher Chang. I feel like it's always going to be my favorite one. So, it just looks. Yeah, yeah, I think that the, what I would have liked to see, and I actually posted this on the reddit, I actually think that they should have brought him back, you know, like he went to City College and all he needed was his, you know, teaching certificate. Now he can teach him every once and season three would have been great for him to be a teacher. Though I do really like the, the new R episode where he's doing the monologue and playing the saxophone and that kind of, the episode where he burns down the, the kitchen or whatever. I think that's a really, really great episode. You know, I think we've dive a lot into the, the angles that I think I wanted to talk about with. It needs to be said, I wanted you to have a voice in it because, and I wanted to at least listen to the cut part, you know, your perspective on the, the writers room, the representation, the female characters. And I think if there's people listening and I was just thinking about like, you know, I want, I would hope that it's not just something that people, I hope most people in who are community fans are. But who knows, you know, you like it for whatever you like it. I don't, I hope people don't like huff and puff and like get upset at these conversations. I, because I think it's like, there's, there's a necessary like, you know, are we thinking about the ramifications of X, Y and Z. I think in general, we have to remember that there are just people on a, you know, paper that they're trying to do their best to, you know, from, as we said, writers room that's change over from change over from change over and a very tumultuous TV show. I mean, like, yeah, never in the history as a writer, you know, the show runner come back. So I think some of it is we have to look at that perspective that there was never continuity even in the beginning in who was running the show. Yeah. They had three different show runners. And basically between Dan, Neil Goldman and Garrett Donovan and the Russo brothers, like, there's a lot of stuff that's, that's happening. So, but I don't want to discount what you said either because it's absolutely important for us to though, there's a reason why this episode was so good in nail nailing these things because we had a woman writer. So it's like, can we look at both of these things at the same time and not like chop off her hands, get huff and puff or, yeah, anyway. Well, and that's one of the things that I think. I started writing about this show because I wanted an outlet to write about a thing that I loved and I'm going to butcher the quote, but I think that there's a TV critic and I'm the guy who said something a long time ago that always stuck with me and knowing why you love something is way more important than loving something. And I think that community taught me how to look at television and to look at that show and go, okay, there's a thing I love. Why do I love it? Okay, so this thing I don't like. Why don't I like it? And you know, I've had people over the years come out and you over the news, but I'm like, hello, you just, we just keep this thing. I'm like, no, I love this thing. Why I'm being critical of it right now because I know it can do better because I've seen it do better or because I wish this thing happens because, you know, then it would be consistent, continuity wise. And you know, friends and I talked about like as great as football, sometimes as in the news, we never really see some of these studs picked back up again. You know, you never really see a whole lot of Shirley and Greta stories again. You never really see, you know, in episodes where Pearson all that have a one-off story is not going anywhere. And so for communities, communities for me was the place where I finally learned how to look at the thing that I loved, but also say that there are things that I don't like about it and that's okay. It's not, it's not bad. It doesn't mean that you hate the show. It doesn't mean that. The people who only praise it are better because I think there's danger in only praising something and not being able to see it both and not being able to see what it could have done better or what it did wrong. And you know, I think that this is the show that taught me how to do that. And I'm incredibly grateful because this is such a great show to do that with because there are so many things that were so good about it. And yeah, you know, we're not saying here going everything is terrible, but there's always room to look at the thing, even especially when there's leaders and go, yeah, I loved that. I wish that this was better and I wish it could have gone this more. I wish that there were more women later on in this series and I think it impacted it. It doesn't mean that I'm saying I hate it and it doesn't mean I'm lost with a fan. Yeah, I think that there's room I think we need to learn in today's especially today's show. How to have those discourses and say, look, this piece of art is good, but I also don't like this thing without being graded and called not a real fan of something. Yeah, I think that there's a danger in that. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I just had a conversation with a very conservative uncle and I got him to support reparations. And that only happened. So let that sink in. But it happened through conversation. It happened through nuance. It happened through like looking at this from all different angles and saying, you know, but what could have, you know, what is the possibility? It means cutting off the cynicism and looking at it from an optimist standpoint, but it also means looking at it from a realist standpoint and saying, but what could it be? So yeah, yeah, exactly. There's room for that. I think that there should be more of that discourse of like, you know, just because someone is critical of something doesn't mean you get to point a finger and go, how you really aren't a true fan, you get it. Therefore, I'm going to dismiss everything you're saying. But it's hard that I think that this show taught me how to do that and it gives me a community unindended of people to do it with even years later. So I'm incredibly grateful that you've allowed me the space to talk about that here. You'll be back. But yeah, this was great. It was great. And I think, yeah, I'm glad that you had a good time. And I'm learning a ton. I lean into these kinds of conversations to figure out and go, okay, yeah, okay. Now I can see a little bit different. And I think it's a really good segue to talk as a community. fan because you are 100% here are my standard questions I'm asking people. This is the most controversial one. Season four, do you watch it or do you ignore it? All right, I've had this conversation multiple times this week. I am not going to apologize for the fact that I don't think season four was as bad as everyone thinks it was. Totally. So I do, I do rewatch, I do rewatch season four. Not all of it, I think that I think I probably have seen you here in there. The pop-it episode I definitely guess. Really? But yeah, I hate it that I'm not going to watch it at the first. So I just kind of pretend that one doesn't exist. I'm a music person so like you threw music at me and like I want to say a bit about this too and that's what gets me is because I'm like oh man I have to service their growth. No, I mean there are certain episodes in that one that I think I rewatch a whole lot. What about the, there's the Sophie B. Hawkins episode? I don't think I've watched that one in a while. So like it's hard to say like when I rewatch this is so bad. I mean this is also what I think a lot of people do. I do this for all of my shows is that I kind of tend to be to stick around and it's like yeah I'll start in a random episode in season four and then I'll just kind of take and choose which ones I watch next. So it's been a while since I've done the whole rewatch as a as a series. Well it's really hard because I like I don't want to get too far ahead of myself because I'm doing these. I'm trying to watch you know the episode you know two, three times and then again I get my head straight with with what I want to talk about and you know but I'm like no I want to go watch you know especially with Christmas time I was like I want to go watch um you know all the Christmas episodes about yeah yeah I definitely did that I definitely I mean that was a head of me recording a podcast for it as it is a two but it was like it's taking everything in me to not just go I really want to go rewatch like this chunk because I'm trying to kind of see them fresh you know and it's it's hard to not get around when I do that but so we're on the same page we may not agree on all the episodes but that's okay we're yeah no that's fine yeah no I really like the puppet one and I I like the yeah there's yeah anyway I'll skip past this but so the other things are I you know kind of want to know like there's a reason we love this show is because we're connecting with these characters and you know so which characters do you think define you like you know who do you most relate with oh this is without a doubt something I already asked Twitter a long a long time ago and by a long time I mean like maybe less than six months ago um I kind of I posted three fictional characters and they said okay Twitter tell me which one do you think I am most like in the resounding response with Andy Adams um I will always any is my forever phase from the show I will always relate to her I am very type A I'm very driven I'm very idealistic um so Andy is without a doubt month my girl hey that's how we keep the lights on uh yeah yeah I I married one of those so a blonde Annie but actually her name is Annie which is funny um yeah funny um but uh my name is Alex so technically I guess that makes me um starburns um anyway yeah do you have any other question is do you have any memes like what do you have any like go to like quotes or memes from oh my gosh too many yeah yeah oh from the show in general yeah oh man I'm trying to think um 100 percent I was I was talking about this I think one of the funniest things to me is that during uh during like the 2015 election cycle a lot of people were posting their media okay I'm hearing just uh a toy walking in the apartment that's on fire yeah and I wanted to I wanted to respond to every single person who's ever used that just like do you know where this comes from are you a community fan because it's not I need you to watch the show yeah um so I use that a lot I um I feel like I quote like choice my whole brain is crying a lot too um uh I used when I used to work at my old job I had a whole file of like bookmarks saved um like that were just like reaction just uh and so I feel like choice um my emotions my emotions uh yeah yeah yeah I just I I feel like in around sex this time I'm not gonna lie I always get done fun uh I really don't know how it any fixed up in my head so I will always saying teach me how to understand Christmas without fail without fail it just it just gets stuck in my head and no one not a whole lot of people in my like day-to-day life watch communities or you know ever watch it though I can't even sing it because they will not understand what I'm referencing uh yeah I have a friend who grew up Jova's witness so I sent him the rap one yeah awesome you have a favorite episode maybe that you can I mean it's okay it's so hard it depends on my mood um remedial past theory are inside it's just uh just brilliant um uh football's a movement you if they go to for me debate one or nine it's also go to for me um but conspiracy theory and interior design you're noticing that these are not any episodes but they're all just brilliantly written yeah and the always around uh Christmas time out of un-detulable Christmas and regional holiday music I also watched Glee for a long time okay yeah and and so while I was watching while you know regional holiday music aired while Glee was still on the air so I just found it to be uh just delightful on multiple levels yeah did you know that Glee literally means Glee yes I did you know that everything is polar when cameras are spinning yeah yeah so that those are like some of my favorites where I just watch and I'm like oh I'm so happy about this so yeah excellent well Jen thank you so much for being on six seasons in a podcast yeah look forward to having you yeah yeah definitely yeah it's this is this is great I um look forward to let's let's do it again sometime um it sounds like you've got there's a contender for talking about some of these season two episodes um so let's let's try to make that happen so um thank you so much yes thank you so much (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hey Amazon Prime members, why pay more for groceries when you can save big on thousands of items at Amazon Fresh? 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