S1E4Full:Please, Carol

[Music] Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McKayla, I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. If this is your first time tuning into the podcast, this is not a recap show. It's more of a free-wheeling, round-table discussion, totally unscripted, about the making of each episode. And if you haven't yet watched this week's episode, I definitely encourage you to do that before you listen, because we'll talk about everything. Now this podcast is about Episode 104 entitled "Please Carol, Please Carol, Please Carol." We know what that is written by Allison Tatlock and directed by Zetna Fuentes. Now in this episode, we meet our mystery man from Paraguay, Manusos, and back in Albuquerque, Carol acquires a kind of truth serum and tries to put Zosha into telling her how to put the world right, and that goes very wrong. Lots to discuss, but before we start, one technical note about this podcast, we had a few audio issues with one of our microphones, so occasionally you'll hear us transitioning in and out of our backup recording in order to hear what's being said more clearly. Not ideal, but we'd rather be able to keep those parts of the conversation in the podcast, rather than getting rid of them, despite the slightly lesser audio quality. So I hope you can forgive us. And now, without further ado, I'd like to welcome our guest, Executive Producer and creator of the show Vince Killigan. Hey, hey, hey, Executive Producer and writer of this episode, Allison Tatlock. Hello. Rock the Tatlock. Carol Sturker herself making a return appearance of the podcast, Ray C. Horn. Hello. Hello Ray. Hi. And making his official debut on the podcast for the first time ever, and in the first time in the show, Manusos himself Carlos Manuel Vesca. Hola, buenas tardes. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, he speaks English. Wow. It's so good to have you here, man. Yeah, it's lovely. It's incredible to be here, really. And also with us on the ones and twos, the wheels of steel, our assistant editor, also editor, mixer, this podcast, Nicholas. Hi. Hello. What's great is everybody or a lot of people who aren't normally necessarily in Los Angeles, where we record the podcast. We really are in the writer's room. We set up microphones, but everybody, a lot of people are in town right now, because the premiere, just to give you a little behind the scenes, the premiere is this week, which we're all really excited about. Two days, two days, 48 hours from now. That's crazy. Yeah. That's right. And undisclosed location in Los Angeles. But yeah, this is a big episode. We, you know, we have a new unaflıcted person. I mean, I guess we sort of had the introduction to Manusos in the last episode when Carol was on the plane. Right. But now we actually get to see the other side of that conversation. Let's talk about it. I mean, how did Vesca, and he likes to be called Vesca. Everybody calls you Vesca. Yeah, I just think it's easier. That's great. Yeah. Then Carlos Manuel. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And my name is not Carlos. It's Carlos Manuel. So Vesca is easier. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. So yeah, when you race down the street with a scrum of fans to get an autograph from this lovely gentleman here, address them either as Carlos Manuel or as Vesca. Correct. I've seen that by the way. I've seen people go after this guy for autographs, but you are much beloved. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's only good. And it's only going to get worse. Just the beginning. Like the Beatles in a hard days night, just being, being hounded to hide behind a newspaper, just like the Beatles. These are topical references, right? The Beatles. Do you know how much attention you would draw yourself hiding by an actual print? Yeah. Yeah. Where did you get that? People are like, where is that? What is that? From the time of the Beatles. Yes. Yes. So I think probably the first thing that on everybody's mind watching is certainly the teaser of this episode is how could you possibly have eaten so much disgusting dog food? I knew we were going to talk about that. I mean, it is, it is viscerally gross to watch. It's one of those things. It turns your stomach, your reaction to it, which is, I mean, we're not eating the food. You know, I assume you're also not eating dog food, but do you want to talk about? I think what he really is grosser. I think you might be right. You tried it, right, Vince? I did. I'm going to let Vesca describe it. I did. And, you know, that expression, the gorge, I could feel the gorge rising in my throat. Oh, no. I know what they're talking about. Yeah. I felt it. I didn't think it was that bad. Not really. I'm glad because you had a lot more of it today. It was hard. It was eating so much of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially after lunch, I was full and it was like four cans that I had to. You should have saved your appetite. You have to say, Vesca, that was bad planning. Yeah, that's not professional, not professional. Also, just to note that we had a version of the dog food that was apparently not gross enough. And Vince Gilligan that got to be grosser. A brilliant props director, Mark Hansen, cooked up an even grosser. It was too dry. The original looked too dry. It needed light glistening off its oiliness. Viscous. Look to other people what it was. It was haggis. And I think it was broth. Is it called like a like the screaming thing on top of it? Yeah, there was some broth, some extra broth. But congealed so that it was gelatinous, which is lovely in any food. It wasn't in the script that the sort of scraping of it with the lid. I mean, how did that? It's so you're selling the hell out of it. You're making it so uncomfortable to think about being in that situation. I remember Mitch Wunguy. Yeah, Mitch, yeah. He was so lovely to me the whole time. And he's a great guy. He came close and he said that time you made me want to throw off. I was watching you. I went like, you don't want to make the boom guy sick because he won't be able to cover his hands. I know. He's going to drop it on my head. I know. Or drop some else in here. Yeah, you don't want to. I remember Zetna coming over as a director and saying too much. It's what you're doing is too. What was the word excruciating? Is that a word? It's too much and we need to leave stuff for what's coming to Manusus. So you can't really start because I was I think I was overacting with the haggis. I don't think it was acting. I mean, there's some wonderful acting in there. That was just this fear that was just like rank discussed, right? Not really. I got to say I wasn't grossed out or anything. One of my favorite moments is when you actually kind of butcher it up there where it's like you start eating it. And yet the look in your face is just damn it. I'm just going to enjoy this. But the telephone keeps ringing and doesn't allow me to enjoy this as much as I want to. We learn a lot about you in that moment because some of us would maybe try to be stoic in front of others. But you're just by yourself and you're still being such a vast about it. Where do we shoot that? Where Manusus is living in that sort of self-storage unit? Is that all practical or how is that a combination of set and practical? The offices, right? The interior was set. Is it awesome set? Yes. So cool. Such a great set. I mean, I know there's things that only Colombians will notice, but they built a game that people play in Colombian. Right. Yeah. That was because of you. I cannot believe you had that thing built. I think you or did they build it or did they find one? But we had it because I think we said to you what would be the kind of things? And story wise, technically it's supposed to be Paraguay. Right. But your character is, as you described us, it makes sense for your character to be Colombian. Right. Which at which you are in real life, correct? Correct. Correct. But that Brawg game, it was like my, I don't know, but my second experience shooting with you guys. Yeah. Yeah. Right. In a new town in a different country, that was like, wait a minute. Where am I? There's a frog game here and you painted it with the flag of Columbia flag. Right. We were thinking based on your, your discussions with me and with Allison and Jen. And we, we talked about, you know, maybe it makes sense. We got to get a backstory in here where this gentleman or his family, you know, his background is in Colombia. Somehow he's transplanted himself to Paraguay. And didn't we talk about that? We did. We wanted to be really specific and so that it would track with your accent. Oh, no. It's a specific way to speak Spanish would feel authentic to the story that we were telling. That's amazing. We wanted to set in Paraguay and also honor the fact that you are Colombian. And Denise Pazini, of course, our incredible production designer created this space. And then it was Ashley Michelle Marsh, our set decorator who came up with all those specific details. Yeah. I have to say when I started reading the first time when I read the script and it said Paraguay. I completely panicked. And I wrote, I texted Jen straight away and said, "Is this guy Paraguayan?" Because that's an accent that I would have to really work. And this was like a month before we started. And I can. completely panicked. You know, this is a, honestly, I, if you said Argentinean Chilean Mexican, I don't know, Venezuela, I could have done something with those. And something that you very are almost never here. Oh, really? Almost never. Okay. Yeah. So that would have been, I would have to quit. Sorry, sorry, I can't do. Oh, you'd get a dial out coach and they'd give you time to study. If that's what it had to be. Yeah. The exterior of the office, just to go back to your question, Chris, was actually shot on location in Albuquerque, a storage facility that needed to be transformed from the dry desert climate of Albuquerque to be much more lush and damp. Like South America partway. And I'm glad you brought that up. And it is, I could literally, if you walk up that road, you know, there's the Jane Lake fence with the padlock on it. If you were to walk through that Jane Lake fence and walk that road, which you see into the distance you know, when the moment is coming back and forth in the VW Beetle, if you walked up the road, her VW Beetle disappears on you run into I think it's fourth street. And Albuquerque from there, you could throw a rock across the street to Vernon's the bar slash restaurant that is where Helen has heard the terrible, the world ends in episode one. So it is literally, I mean, you could literally throw a rock across the street to Vernon's from there. And the other thing I love about the real self storage place that you're describing is the office that Bezka's character, Manusau works in the one he's hold up in the, that's a second story built onto a real self storage unit. That is a second story made out of basically wood and fake basing vinyl stuff that looks like it's made out of center block. It's a facade. It's a facade. The second story where the offices does not exist. It was just, I think we put in the staircase. Yes, the magic of the movies, you know, we did an all night shoot at least one and the crew at one point was split so that there was a second unit that was specifically shooting the storage units itself for that montage of searching through the storage units that are incredible director. Is that enough fun to us? Is that not? Yeah, an intrepid person and amazing director and courage in so many aspects. There is one thing. She has one, and a Achilles heel. I don't know this one was. She's saying pretty bulletproof. Exactly. She's very tough and also very kind, incredible combination, really a dreamy person to work with. She does have one, a bugaboo, so to speak, which is, she really is not a fan. And none of us like them, but she really is not a fan of the cockroach. And this is a long night shoot in Albuquerque and had nothing to do with the location specifically. It's just the climate and the timing. Let's just say by the middle of the night, there were a lot. A lot. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I would constantly tell her don't look down. Yeah. I think we had a little platform for her to stand out. Yeah. I asked her how she got the run. She's basically like you eating the haggis like she just had to steal herself and say, we are doing this. There's no way around, but through and move forward. Wow. And she's lovely. She's a lovely lady. I'm sorry she couldn't be. She's in London working in London. Otherwise, she would have been on this one too. She was so patient. Yeah, I mean, that was my very first day. Wow, it was your that was so inside or outside? Outside? The outside part was your very first day. First day shooting. And I guess the first day is always hard, right? Right? Yeah. Yeah. Imagine you're in a different country working with the industry that you never thought that you would work with. Yeah, you and I had a lot of talks about it. It's a big it's a change. Every set is different, but you had not worked in the US on a set. And so there were a lot of things that you had to adjust to. What did you find was the biggest overall difference? You know what? It was funny that I actually found a lot of things similar. Okay. That was like, oh, so we call this thing the same thing. And we do this the same way, the time, the time to do your work over here. You're given time to do your work, which I then spoiled it for him and said, that's just this show. That's not that's not all American production. All right. Okay. But I do, I'd remember the rich data and introduction for me. It's sicklar our first 80. Just at the beginning of the night, it was, what we're going to do this and we're going to do that. And with us tonight is bezga. And everybody was plotting it. It was like, hey, these people are really sweet. These people at our top nudge. I got to know everyone fine after that. But at the time, I just assume if these people are here, this because they heard top nudge. And they are being so welcoming and so lovely and warm to me, you know. In addition, we kind of want to always want to repay the favor because I wish Gordon Smith was here and because he went down to Columbia years ago. Yes, he did too. He did. There was a Colombian spin off of a baking bed called Matastasis. Yes. Yes. And he was sort of our guy on the ground there and did a wonderful job. It was a wonderful emissary for us. I was sorry, I couldn't make it. I hate to admit I've never been to Columbia. I've had two chances now. Hopefully this time you'll you'll come. Yeah, I would love to. But everyone was warm and wonderful to him. He did mention that things move a lot faster in production in Columbia. Yeah, you at that time, they'll probably be doing, I don't know, 18, 20 scenes a day. Specifically for telenovelas or like a series. Oh, oh, for that. Oh, no, but I think every genre, it was like it wasn't it was a remake of of breaking bad. Yes. Yes. In their own. Well, they they launched it in the context of the Colombian context. I remember when Gordon came back from that. He had a great time. And he loved everybody down there and they were they were wonderful to him. And I thought we were going to do more of those. That was Columbia. Was the country who said we'd like to make a country-specific remake of breaking bad and they went to Sony and I and Sony came to me and I thought that's really cool. And we thought there'd be more. But no, but it was fun doing that one. It was a neat thing. They're remade all 62 episodes. Yeah, you know, you're talking about having the time to do things. I was told that in Manusos notebook when he's tracking all of the radio frequencies, that that's actually your handwriting. It is. And that how how long it'll take you to do that? I mean, you were there's a lot of writing in those books. But before I started shooting that, I had a lot of time, you know, in my hand. So yeah, I could do it. The thing is I could tell that I was sorry when my hand I couldn't move my fingers. That's right. Those those frequencies. See, the thing is for Manusos and Manusos, the first time we see him, is that I couldn't really rehearse the scene because it was all actions. There was no text. I knew what was going on. I knew, okay, so he's going to dial this thing and he's going to be listening to the to the clock and all that. But not I couldn't really prepare. I had to wait to get to set and the director tell me, okay, so this is how you are going. Right. I had thought of that. That'd be self. That'd make even more nervous, right? Absolutely. I was a nerve. I was like, okay, so I didn't prepare for this because I couldn't. I couldn't. I I would think if I if I rehearse this this way, it'll be fixed and I'll come to set and I'm going to tell me, no, it's this way. You know, the radio is not here. It's going to be there. Yeah, yeah. Sure. So it was it was quite the like the music sheet that you have to get on the spot. Yeah, right. But she was lovely. He was lovely. Did a great job. What a challenge. It was great. Speaking of, I love the music that's all through recessive introduction. Yeah. Yeah. I loved all the music that Thomas G as well as Dave Porter put in there for all of the Manusos intro stuff. It's just all so great. I mean, I've always loved what they do with music, but there was something just really cool about the story introduction of your character and how the music was illustrating some of those points without ever telling you exactly what to think. It was awesome. I agree. And everybody, when you got that warm welcome, it's partly because it's a great group of people who do welcome, you know, new folks warmly. And also because I think there was a genuine excitement to establish and introduce this whole new flavor or character like we're taking you now audience to a different world. And everybody was rooting for you and also genuinely fired up about it. Yeah. True. I mean, I felt like, okay, they're not just welcoming me. They are bringing me into the family. Yeah. Exactly. It's so moving. I still think about it. It's awesome. That needle drop, by the way, is called sumac by an artist called Loris LORIS. Loved it. I was I'm sure like many people very surprised to see the actual mayor of Albuquerque. Yes. Tim Keller. Yeah. How did that happen? Where did that idea come from? And at what point was he brought into the process and having to clear that? Well, Vince Gilligan is the unofficial mayor. So obviously the unofficial mayor reached out to the official mayor and finally they came together. Tim Keller is a cool guy. I had met him once or twice over the years to spend a little bit of time with him. He's he might be America's most handsome mayor. He looks a lot like Aaron Eckhart. He's a very handsome mayor. He has. And we reached out and said, would you be up for this? And he showed up. He spent the day on on the set and he had some folks with him, and he was doing work in between. He was like taking phone calls and doing like. - Mayor stuff. - Mayor stuff. - Sure, Mayor, Mayor work. - And he's really good. He's like a natural, he was really funny. - He did a great job. - Totally game, it was very hot. And he had to be out there sweeping the asphalt and cleaning up with the rest of the cleanup crew. And he was totally in it. - Yeah, he was great. - He does look like an actor playing a mayor, even though he is an actor. - It is crazy. - Is the real, yeah, for folks watching, that was the real mayor of Albuquerque. - Yeah. - Yeah, the current mayor, absolutely. (laughing) - As pictured in the airport. - That's right. - That's right. - That's right. - Whenever I go back, I see his face coming down the escalators. - And it sits in the first episode, that's right. That was just a fluky bit of happenstance, but it worked out great, yeah. - It's awesome. - Another person in that scene is Jeff Hiller. - The brilliant Jeff Hiller. - We were so excited to be able to work with him and man, let's see a dream. - And man that he deserved that Emmy, he just got. - Yes. - Yes, congratulations Jeff. - Yes, he is wonderful. I've loved his work for a long time and I loved him as a human. As soon as we started chatting and hanging out and when he told me, "Where do you see what I'm wearing?" And then came to set in what I think is a singlet masquerading as a bike uniform. (laughing) And he's a very tall guy and it's a very short costume. I was dying laughing and he knew it was quite funny as well but it's also telling the story of these people were in the middle of whatever they were in the middle of when this thing happened and they haven't gotten to a place of changing those clothes yet. We were laughing about his costume and Vince you happen to be like wandering by or overheard it and you offered appropriately so like, "Well, your character doesn't have any." Because he was saying it's also hot and now it's starting to ride up in the front. - Oh no. - Vince was sitting there. - That's not where you want things to ride though. - Vince was like, "Right, but these people, they don't have any vanity, they don't care." Chef under his breath he goes, "But Jeff does." (laughing) He was such a good sport. - It was a trooper. - He was a trooper. - This was our brilliant costume designer, Jennifer Bryan. She had a vision. - It was so good. - Her vision was realized. - It was. - It was. - The first time I watched that scene, I couldn't with that fantastic scene which I do want to talk about the content of that scene. - Oh god. - But I just couldn't figure out why he looks so familiar to me. I mean, I've seen him in things, but I feel like, do I know him? And then months later, like not that long ago, Jen sent me some pages from his memoir that was recently published. And he talks about an experience he had. And I realized he was in this like big national snickers campaign. Many years ago with my good friend Chris Sullivan. A friend of the podcast Chris Sullivan for no reason in particular. - Two of the tallest snickers ever. - Yes. - Wow. - Yes, they were like, one of them was a Viking and one of them was, it was this very funny ad campaign that they did, like many different spots and they were at the Super Bowl and all that. And I realized, oh, that's why I know his face because I had seen all of Sully's ads. So that's the small world. But that scene, let's talk about that scene, the writing of it, the shooting of it. - Yeah, I had seen Jeff in somebody somewhere as well as some other things that he's just so, he's so great. And we got to talking about the scene. And that scene from the second it came out in the script was making any of us in the art cringe. It's like your worst nightmare. Find out that people actually think you're just doing popcorn fair or you're a hack or that your partner actually doesn't think as highly of your work as you thought. Although I think Carol suspected some of what she's asking. And the whole point is, it's just such a brilliantly written scene, Mr. Tanak. She is trying to figure out is it possible for these people to lie and she knows that they have this imperative to please her. So she's trying to ask things that would not please her to hear but she suspects might be truths that how are they gonna tell the truth while not upsetting her and which one will win out. And so the fact that she drills down on that particular subject I think means she suspected some things. - Yeah. - We were very excited to see you. To imagine you and then see you realize this scene. It's one of those scenes was first of all pleasure to write. It's almost like writing a little play in the middle of a script and to have two people kind of getting into it across from each other. - It was, it was like a one act play. - Yeah, and that's how Zetna shot it. Like you guys played it all the way through many times over and over and over before she started getting pieces. So both of the actors had to be uber prepared which of course you both were. And then yeah, be able to run it as it's own little kind of experience together as you went on this journey. It was extra fun to write as a theater nerd because Carol also seems to be a little bit of a theater nerd and worrying about Shakespeare and thinking about the different Shakespearean plays. And yeah, we poor, we talked so much in the room about our own season insecurities as writers and to be able to kind of pour that into the scene and then see it realize like that. - And also these really like interesting questions of like, I understand Carol's point of view although it's quite the philosophical thing to extrapolate to ask yourself is a compliment a compliment if somebody feels the same way about something else? Why do we need your love of anything to be unique to just your thing? And so she's asking that but at the same time asking questions of like, what makes some art important and some art not important? And that Jeff's character is saying like as long as you made somebody happy and they loved reading it, why is that less important than high art, you know? And that kind of stuff which really, we had some fun conversations in the crew on set. All of these episodes, really like, what do you think about that? And they're big questions and he's a theater nerd himself and so he was like, we're just gonna sit here and do this like a one act play and we get to do it over and over and find like all these different nuanced ways to do it because that's also the first time we see these characters having to wrestle with saying an uncomfortable truth to Carol but they aren't liars but how much can they lawyer their way out of how they articulate what they need to say and he just, we were both like in tears afterwards and he was like, this is, I don't remember the last time I was giving the lungs her to just like work on something like this and I was like, it's kind of heaven isn't it? - Oh my God, really? - Yeah. - I luckily I got to visit that day and you guys were so good. Allison gave you such good stuff and Zetna did such a good job directing you and it was just a pleasure watching you guys. How do you, I've asked you this, for how do you memorize all that stuff? Like it's amazing. - Then that was one day a shooting, right? Did that whole thing and what did- - We did, we did that scene for the whole day. - Wow. - Yeah, it's so funny, no matter what you do or how long you do it, like I still think, Vesca, you could tell me if you felt differently. I still feel like the number one question you do get from people outside of our business entirely is like how are you guys memorizing those lines? 'Cause in their head, they're thinking, I couldn't do in excess of eight items at the grocery store without writing it down, do you know what I mean? But I tell them if you think about it, like I'm memorizing a random list, eight pages of random words, then it would be impossible. And we start macro and we go micro, I think most of us have just like, I'm memorizing the beats of a conversation. And so if I asked somebody to, in general repeat the different points of conversation we've had today since we started the podcast introducing, you know, Vesca introducing each of us and go through and obviously we exercise that part of our brain quite a bit doing what we do. But you're doing the chunks of what was the conversation and when did it shift and to what degree? And then you're getting more and more micro of what are the sentences that were in that chunk. It's easier if somebody's other line queues your line in a direct way of like where do you wanna go to dinner? Let's do Thai food. Is easier than where do you wanna go to dinner? I've never seen those shoes. Like that's always harder 'cause you're your own internal monologue. I do them over and over. I handwrite them over and over. Some people listen to their lines over and over. And then I also, unless somebody chains me to the floor and won't let me, I go and find my scene partner and run it with them because I truly think anybody and we've all been there. Like you're an actor in a hotel doing your lines by yourself and the first time you say them out loud is when you got set and they all action. It's just such a huge, giant, additional obstacle to trying to do a good job. It's better to say them out loud with each other. - I think that's awesome how you do that. Did you and Jeff get to do that? Did you get to, the Iran lines, like a, like a, - Yeah, Jeff came over to my rental place and we talked about the scene and I said, we're not gonna lock in anything. You're gonna discover with Zettna and with Allison and Vince like what this brand of the others is. What are we seeing that's new? What are we seeing that's established? But he was just excited to talk about character and talk about episodes that he had not seen 'cause he was just arriving with us and then run the lines and run the lines. And yeah, he did say I was like, I don't remember the last time I was able to do this where you could go and go and run the lines and rehearse things beforehand. And I was like, well, it's only gonna make the show better. It's only gonna make me better too. - That's awesome. I got to imagine a big part of the conversation was what in the hell is going on in this show? - Oh, for sure. - And I had to, like, I got a lot of that from guests. I was like, do you know what's wrong with these people? (laughing) Do you know how big a smile is? And I was like, funny. you should ask. It's a very finely tuned modulation going on with how much these people smile because you can't look high as a kite. You can't look like a robot. You can't look sinister. You have to look like you're thinking, but there's a lot, a lot for those people to dial in. But yeah, most of the time you had questions about exactly what was going on. I was like, I'm just going to let somebody else answer that because I don't actually, I have the pleasure of playing someone that has no idea what's going on. Then these are very fair questions. It's very difficult, the job that Jeff and these other guest stars have to do is, yes, to find this balance of I'm a very good natured person, and I'm also authentic. I don't feel fake in my smiling, and I also take a lot to bring me down. I mean, to find that right balance, and then in a seven page scene, the scene we're talking about, I believe, was seven pages. I don't think so. So to find the sort of variety, to play different beats within this scene, when you know that this character is wired so specifically, it's quite challenging and very challenging. Yeah, the mayor got it right away. I just killed it. There's a pro, right? You know, Ray, you said something, you said the phrase high as a kite, which is something that Carol does in this episode. She does. Carol gets quite high. Do you guys want to talk about writing and shooting that? I assume you had some fun coming up with some of the crazy things. I know there's a ton of material for the extras on DVD. A lot of good outtakes, a lot of great outtakes. We couldn't use everything, which was actually painful for me. I understood. Including the scripted me singing Melissa Atherich. Yes. Ray sang Melissa Atherich at the top of her lungs, and it didn't make it into the show. That's how much good stuff we had. There's a lot of good stuff. It was fun. We had it was very funny. And I would say, though, in all seriousness, some of the technically challenging stuff was finding the tone. How comedic can it be? And so I think we did a lot of material partially so that it could be found of like this constant balance in this show of how comedic can a moment be and be supported with this very dramatic moment happening over here and where is this tone? And it shouldn't be cutesy. And I think sometimes it was getting cutes probably because of me. But we were given the space to push it as dramatically. I think we all were really happy that when I was given license to also let some of it be very real and very dark that I miss you in crying about her wife. It didn't say it was about her wife, but I thought clearly you would go to that place as well, like drunk crying kind of feeling. So it was really great to find those things. So that was technically challenging. And then the other thing was on the day I was told, or maybe the day before, probably even the week before, but this idea that some of the footage would be the footage that Carol was doing herself, right? And then I was told that's the only footage that it wouldn't be covered by other cameras. I was like, Oh, that's cool. That's really interesting. It wasn't until like two days before we filmed it that I thought, Oh, well, then it would have to be a continuous take. I thought, because what was it? Was it two or three pages of pieces you'd written like singing Melissa Etheridge? And then it was reading from her own book. And it was quite a bit. It was a lot. And I thought they were disjointed pieces. And then when I realized you need the option of being able to take full pieces of the take with those things together, I was like, Oh, well, the funniest while still being the most grounded way and heartfelt way for her to be in that space is to connect these seemingly very disparate things, because someone on drugs or it's like if you drank too much, like you're connecting two thoughts, even though everybody else looks insane to the drone, it totally makes sense to talk about this thing and then that thing and then that thing. So so that was challenging, but really fun. I had written in the connective tissue between each of these things of why she would start reading from her book after whatever singing Melissa Etheridge and stuff. I would add things and I think I put the sweater on and then was like I'm a professor, which led her to like reading from her book. I was doing anything I could to like because I also had to memorize like we were talking about memorizing lines completely disjointed chunks that are not taken off any cue. So that's what I did. I wrote the middles. Yes, this was an incredible collaboration between writer's director and actor and it was kind of wild to watch it come to life. We were watching in real time as the incredible race. There was like a lot of planning that were crew inside. There was also some improvisation. There was some improv. Yes. And it was hard not to laugh. We were all tamping down, tamping down. There was a lot of church giggles at the monitor and video village and a huge round of applause when when it was over because it was like. That's what I was about. Yeah. Long. Long. I mean, those were long. Yes. More than one and long. And then also there were peace, you know, then we, then we picked up. But there was some shock continuous thing was incredible. And I was so 10 minutes dazzled. Wow. I feel like if there was video of Zetna and me, I would have, you know, my like the slack jawed. I was mesmerized watching you move from one piece of the event to the next and some of the funniest stuff I thought came out of that because your voice would stop doing it. Yes. It was fun. And then later when you're shooting the part with you watching it, horrified. Did you actually watch what it was or were you just, they did make a, they made a cut, a mini cut for me to watch for that that I had not seen yet. Get me Donald. Yes, get a feat of editing as well. We say because it did have to call through all of this stuff and then help us. Yeah. But I love the year, the way that you play that. I think anybody who's ever seen a video of themselves drunk or doing something maybe you don't even remember. Yeah. Perhaps. Yeah. I mean, I can't say for sure that that is my experience. But, but it's just like, oh, no. Oh, no. I don't want to. I can't. No. No. It's embarrassing and the crying is tragic. I mean, Vincent and I both felt very sad watching that. And the just the fact that you were able to go there while also being in these other kind of, well, then Carol's, I mean, that's both Carol, but then your reaction watching it sober. It really jokes you up. It's just the viewer. I mean, it's because because your reaction, oh, her reaction to the fact that she's really good. I mean, it's because she's not really allowing herself that sober. Right. The fact that she's like, yep, that lives in me. I'm aware I keep swallowing it every day. I really like it when you agree with yourself. I don't know. One of my favorite moments. I think we even wrote in the script like, yay, me or I good job me or whatever in the stage direction. So it was very gratifying. How annoying is that chick? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am. I know. For a second, she's like, I'm glad someone else thinks the way I do. And it's like, it's you. You really adamantly agree with yourself. How sad her life is at this point? She's like, someone's on my side. It's me. It's me. This episode ends with what is referred to, I think, in the script and around the office as the convergence of all of when she affects Zosha and they all crowd around her, those please, Carol, and kind of leaving us on this note of where is this going next. I know that that sequence, that convergence, I know that they started rehearsing that days before to try and get all of that, you know, how involved the background of us were incredible. Amazing. Yeah. Incredible. We had to shoot it for multiple days in it. It was very hot, very, very hot. Well, Rich Sikler, our AD had the great idea to map it out inside. So we did kind of a pre-rehearsal rehearsal inside on our stages, yes, and taped it out. And so to give sense of what it would be like without being out in the blazing heat. So there was like the pre-rehearsal and then rehearsal and then shooting. And then of course we had the support of our movement expert, Nido. We had Nido, you may have heard Nido on the bonus episode from 101. Right. And then Sherri Montessano and Ashland Padilla and their team trying to figure out these tears that are running down these people's faces. A shout out to Carolina as well. How to cry without looking pain is a very difficult thing because they aren't experiencing the emotional anguish as much as just the tears are flowing and then all the other people because Carolina's character has been altered by the drugs that Carol has given her. So she's feeling more than they are in a way or at least allowing her physical body as allowing itself to do things that the rest of them are not. And then they had to figure out how to get tears. I think it was vitamin E oil and stuff because they have to stay there. It's not like people are squeezing their eyes and crying. And then how do you get that to show with bright sunlight on their face was quite the feet and running around doing 150 people. I voted for onions, bags on it. It's to stick them in everybody's face right before. Carolina did have a combination of real tears. She did and so did many people there. Yeah, I'm not taking it. I wanted to cry just because it was so hot. No, it was more it was more the her character what it's at least going through a thing. And well, so are they because they're all of one mind. Yeah, I don't take anything away from what any of them are doing but it was mostly the background artists that would need to have this sort of almost continuous look that would be impossible to create as a human being for the for the takes and the angles and everything. Oh, yeah, absolutely. No, Carolina was brilliant in it. Yes. Everyone to be generating real tears under those circumstances. Maybe I was generating real sweat, though. So that was the behind-the-scenes photos of how many people had battery-operated fans on me. And it was not because like, oh, number one has to be kept cool. Well, the most of you sweat, it was because I sweat like a boy who's been forced to like go to camp to learn sports. I'm so gay. That's how I sweat. It's not perspiring. It's not glowing. It is soaking wet hair within seconds. It's the reset. It kills people because my hair is soaking wet. Now you've got to dry it to look like the beginning. I have multiple shirts for so many costumes that shouldn't need multiple shirts because of the amount of sweat. Well, I say good for you for sweating on camera. Women's sweat. And as Vince knows, because I called it out during the edit, I love the moment where you decide to sniff your pit when you get into that funky, smelling car. Well, they was part and parcel of this idea of like in these very dark moments, like that there's just something that's very observationally human-funny. And I was like, so I drive this car now and you're like, no, even at the depths of her despair, she decides this smells too much. Even I am above this. Well, as we wrap up, I just want to give two shout outs. One, a couple of people that appear on screen. One is Allison's husband, David Lieter, who is the hospital worker who Carol asks for heroin from. Yes. And then right at the end there, the person giving CPR using the AED machine, the Fibrillator, is Rosa Estrada, who was the fabled medic from Better Call Saul, who saved Bob Odenkirk's life. That was a very crazy day. Was any of that inspired by that like narratively? Because I had never even thought about those machines. And then once that happened, we all took training. And we all we have one in the kitchen. And it's just here in the writers post-production offices. We have one in the kitchen now, an AED machine. I mean, I'll never forget that. Ray, I know you won't either. It was the day that happened. And it was Rosa Estrada, and it was Angie Meyer, our first AED, who was doing chest compressions. Yeah, I mean, who better to play that scene in this episode than Rosa? I don't think we didn't consciously push the story in that direction because of that experience. But once we decided that this was where the story was going, we were very aware that people, including you, Ray had been through this traumatic experience on the set. And I do remember we all felt a little bit protective of you that you would have to go through this scene having been through this real life experience. You guys were very sweet when I am trying to resuscitate my wife as well in the pilot. Exactly. And we've had a bunch of that in this, thanks so far. Yeah. Yeah. But no, everybody was very kind about it and helpful and all of that. I felt okay about it would have felt wrong to prostitute that experience into this. It was not something that I sat off to the side and thought like, okay, here's how I'll squeeze fear or tears out, you know, having said that, I'm aware of the variety of reactions one can have like that people have when something like that is happening. Well, we'll have to wait until next week to find out what happens. But thank you all for coming in and on a Sunday to record this and thank you all for listening. Thank you for having us. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. That was awesome. All right. Thank you so much to Carlos Manuel Vesca, Ray Cihorn, Alison Tatlock, and Vince Gilligan. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by high bridge productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple podcasts to get the next episode in your feed, including those bonus episodes. And watch Pluribus on Apple TV. We're available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Sy, The Music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeast, and Nicholas Sy. Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me, your host, Chris McKaylor. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts. [BLANK_AUDIO]