S1E4 - Sales Process: The importance & Best Practices With Gavin Tye

Stuart Butterfield once said, "Every customer interaction is a marketing opportunity. If you go above and beyond on the customer service side, people are much more likely to recommend you. And we couldn't agree more." "Welcome to the Growing a B2B SaaS." This show is not like any of the other startup podcasts. On this show, you'll get actionable and usable advice. People hear about all aspects of growing a business to a business software company. Customer success, sales, funding, bootstrapping, exits, scaling, everything you need to know about growing a startup with SaaS. And you'll get it from someone who's going through the same journey. "Welcome to Growing a B2B SaaS." Now you're host, you're on Hoffman. Welcome back to the Grow Your B2B SaaS Podcast. We discuss all topics on how to grow your SaaS, no matter in which stage you are in. Whether you're a folks product-led customer-led or sales-led product, you will need to know how to sell your product by creating the month for it. That is what we're going to talk about today. By creating the month, selling should become a lot easier. You should also reduce your sales cycle, which is going to accelerate your growth, which we all care about. We're going to do this today with Gavin Ty. He has an extensive background in sales. He's been in high-value selling since 2015. He's a mentor on growth mentor. He has his own YouTube channel, helping B2B SaaS companies to improve their sales and lead generation strategies and to close it off, create his own B2B sales philosophy called "Sills Market Fit." Welcome to the show, Gavin. Thanks, Yarn. Thanks for having me. No problem. I guess for the ones who are not convinced yet after this introduction, why should people listen to you today? My background comes from, since 2015, I entered the startup space here in Australia. Market here is actually relatively small compared to other parts of the world. When I come into the industry, there was a global no-cloud policy still in effect. B2B SaaS enterprise sales were still in its infancy. What I learned during my time was there's a lot of focus on product-led growth or product market fit, product-market fit. What I quickly learned in selling to B2B, especially large businesses or government organizations, is every organization that you enter is completely different. It's like a person. There's no two organizations the same. There was no talk in any sales literature that I read that aligns in your sales process to how your target markets buy. Those big organizations dictate how startups and B2B businesses engage with them. It makes sense to become, in my scenario, to become an expert in their journey. How do they buy something or how do they quantify value in the business? How do they make a purchase? How do they go through their procurement channels? It's really no one speaking about it. It's called sales market fit when it's aligning your sales process and your efforts to be one or two steps ahead of your potential client. You can help them along the way, accelerate growth, win more clients, outsmart the competition, and basically grow your business. That's what I've dedicated myself to doing is helping businesses find their right sales market fit, which is so critical in today's market. I love it. There was going to be the first question I wanted to ask regarding your own philosophy, right? Sales market fit. Is that the case? You need to understand, I guess, how they sell. Is that the core of the philosophy or other markings to it? Yeah. The core of the philosophy is no one likes to be sold to. We just can't sell. The way the world has changed in the last three or four years, so many more meetings are done online today. We have to be adding value in other ways. We can't rely on face-to-face meetings. If we push too hard on a Zoom meeting like this, people will just disengage and they won't take our call anymore. We can't sell. A sale is a consequence and it's a consequence of someone deciding to buy. I learned this selling high-value SaaS. The ticket price was somewhere in the range of $25,000 to $45,000 a month with a $4,000-500, $600,000 implementation fee on a five-year contract. It had massive contracts. You cannot sell it as a salesperson. What I had to do was help people along their journey and create demand. That's the essential part of the philosophy is how do you create consistent demand through your sales interactions? That's not relying on marketing. It's not a marketing function. They need your product within the market. There's basically three stages of demand. It starts with interest and then it goes to a need. Then it goes to a want and then it goes to a need. Most people merely operate in the interest. Are you interested in what we do? Let me get your proposal. It doesn't go anywhere. You can't navigate through the complexities of a large business or a B2B business, but most more often than not. That's really my philosophy. Helping the client get to that decision to buy you as quick as possible. Having them to buy you without you trying to sell them basically and that is always the most tricky point. Correct. Every sale needs movement and they need movement from their current state in their business towards going, "I cannot stay in this current position. These business processes that are in the current business are costing too much money. I have to move to a find a solution." Often we start up, so I have a differentiated solution, but we definitely had a differentiated solution that was completely different to everyone else in the market. You have to work on creating that differentiation, highlighting the problem in another way, and showing there's a solution to get them to move to that solution. That makes sense. Definitely makes sense. Maybe to zoom out for one second again. SaaS companies will say, "We need to sell." Even though they need to create demand, what would they need to have in place to create demand or before they can start selling? That's a really great question. One of the challenges with founders and startups is they work in the solution space. I have created a solution that does X and does Y. One of the biggest misconceptions is the market actually has a full understanding of the problem that exists in their business. We also need to understand, if you're selling a human resource platform or a CRM, it's very hard to measure the features of a CRM or a HR system, but it does have an impact on the business process. Like a HR system could help onboard employees quicker, help reduce the interactions, the manual effort that the HR team has to interact with the team is more efficient at capturing records, so it does make the HR function more efficient. Or a CRM will help close clients quicker because you can get the information at the fingertips, you can get your follow ups, well, get insights with AI, which is where they'll be heading soon. It does impact the business process. So what we need to understand as a business, any founder or any B2B business is understand what are the business processes that you impact, direct and indirectly, and then figure out a way to quantify that. You need to show your target audience how much that is costing them. We need to highlight how inefficient their current processes are so they have to move forward. And I learned this the hard way. When I said our ticket price was $25,000, $45,000 a month, people were saying, wow, this is amazing, this is going to change our world, but they weren't taking action. What I would I learnt was is they could not equate value to $25,000 when they weren't paying anything on a balance sheet in their business. These are conservative businesses. It wasn't until I showed them that, hey, your current processes are costing you $500,000 a month, potentially exposing you to a large amount of risk. I don't think you can sit in this state anymore, you have to find a solution. They're like, yes, you are right. Now we need to find a solution. I was like, look, look at what we're selling. It's a 20X ROI. It actually solves all those problems we highlighted. You should buy it now. Yeah, absolutely. Know the business processes that you're solving, knowing who in the business is the most impacted by those processes that has the authority to potentially buy you, which is a form of a buying persona, then effort. You need effort, consistent effort to test your messaging, to test the market and just start with those three things. Know the real problems, figure out a way to measure the current impacts so you can measure your ROI. Find your potential people who will pay or who are most impacted by that and then consistent effort as through the generation on a regular basis. I love it. I think a lot of companies struggle with this, right, where they will have sales demos, client or prospects are really happy, really enthusiastic. They're probably, they're like, oh, this is a great solution. And then they get stuck in the funnel as in, they don't take the next action. I think that's really common. And how you explain it as in identify the business process, your impact and quantify it, I think that really makes a lot of sense. And maybe one follow up question here, like how deep do you have to go? Do you really, you're going to put a real number on it, right? You mentioned 20x already. So you're probably going to put a value money wise on it. Yeah, look, as a subject matter expert, like a founder in a B2B business, has to be subject matter expert on the problems they solve. They're their actual key to using their knowledge to highlight the direct and indirect impacts of a current process. Indirect impacts are what actually builds out the ROI. Like, for instance, if I'm a team of four in a business and I'm data entering, but we can't do the data entering until, can't start the job until we do the data entering. That's a direct cost. But the indirect cost is the three people waiting also because they can't do the work either. So it's about finding a calculator or finding a way to demonstrate it. You don't want to spend three or four or five weeks with a client to do that. It's inefficient. It's, it's not worth your time. But at least get to a resemblance of a calculator or work with a potential client to develop one and then you iterate that over time. But it has to be a defendable assumption. You have to be able to defend the numbers you come up with and then you iterate it over time when you go through the process. If a client goes, "Oh wow, that's an amazing ROI." Yes, we definitely want to progress further. You go, "Hey, that had a great impact." That just significantly moved that deal from interest to a need or down at demand curve. And then you just continually testing, "Did I get the right outcome to the next stage of the funnel?" Say of the strategy of the framework. Yeah. I think the question, especially, of course, younger companies will have have as in they don't have a salesperson yet. So maybe let's start with with that as in when do you recommend companies to hire their first salesperson? I think a founder really needs to control their own destiny of their business in the first instance. I've seen so many times where a founder has not thought that their sales are untated so they won't do sales although leave it to the last part of the day and so they're not getting that done and not engaging with the market they're not learning the messaging that works and it is iterative process that we need to be comfortable to fail fast and there's no two ways around it. So what happens is because a founder's not strong in that space. They'll outsource it to a salesperson but then they have no way of knowing if that salesperson is being is performing well or not because what happens if they get down to past six months, seven months, eight months? The salesperson hasn't closed. They've wasted eight, eight months, have to let the salesperson go, have an added to their body of knowledge of how to help a client buy them and they're at a loss. There's been plenty of great businesses that have died because they haven't had their right sales market fit. I haven't aligned it. So a founder should know how to progress a client through the stages and go right, I understand that. I can add my my tacit knowledge or my subject matter expertise and I can help that process. Now the salespeople can scale and do what they do following this exact process. So it's at your own peril if you outsource it to a salesperson without a strategy in place because you're hoping that they have the skills to close sales and there's plenty of bad size people out there as we all know. Exactly and I think this is I mean, this is the core for starting companies right? You need to figure things out yourself before you can outsource it whether it's it's sales whether it's a really a marketing whether it's it's marketing you will need to figure out things yourself first before you go out towards somebody else and I think sales market fit is a really great great name for that. And it comes with prioritizing it. It's not easy to do. You can set up systems. So once you have the framework done you can set up systems to automate some of it but you have to make it a priority like if you're a technical founder and your skill set is right in code and doing everything else other than selling you need to do that first thing in the morning get it out of the way like going to the gym and then you can concentrate on everything else. You have to be conscious of when your target clients are ready to receive your information because you will create a self-fulfilling prophecy where you'll go I'm no good at sales I'm just I'm so bad at it I'm going to leave it to four o'clock in the afternoon I'm going to reach out to to my target audience but they're tired all they want to do is go home you reach out to them and I go now I'm not interested limit on you're like I knew I knew I was no good at sales you just created a self-fulfilling prophecy you just need to make it a priority and you will eventually get better at it. Yeah I think that's good and especially when you look at it at the end of the day indeed as you keep it at the end of the day it's really easy to say I'm going to do it tomorrow and then tomorrow you're going to do the exact same thing so get it out of the way I think that is the biggest step pair. It comes down to knowing your numbers right like saying hey this year I want a budget of 20 to $30,000 like a sales goal of $30,000 $300,000 $300,000 $300,000 $300,000 whatever that goal is knowing your numbers of where clients fall out in the pipeline and then getting to a number at the end saying at a minimum I need to send out this many email sequences as a starting point then I can do other lead generation activities as well to reduce that number and get better but if you know your number hit your number then do everything else the effort is easiest to control your skill and your targets you can work on that later. Yeah and I think knowing the number I think especially for technical founders make sure you have a number in place which you want to reach I think I mean we just had a brief chat before this podcast you showed exactly how you plan things for your clients that is critical right where you actually have a plan and you need to know which numbers you need to hit and where do you want to work towards. Correct and you need to be realistic if you're a startup with no clients at MVP at best you're not going to win every client. Look at the technology adoption curve and you got the innovators and early adopters you're really looking for a specific type of client at a specific time that they're ready the chances are really minimal that you will find them so you have to do a lot more lead generation effort to produce results and if you miss that just statistically it makes it very very difficult so you'd need to be realistic about where your business is and the right strategy this strategy actually will help you evolve as you go through the technology adoption curve but be realistic in your first if you've started out of business maybe 10 clients in B2B for your first year is phenomenal then maybe the next year 30 then the next year 100 but you really need to be realistic and you have to do way more effort in the beginning to start that momentum turning of clients coming aboard and seeing your value. It is the most challenging part as a founder but in the end like if you do it well it's going to be the most rewarding as well. I'll give you an example yeah I've just met a client recently last year they went down the route of what traditional B2B companies do they went down the route of engaging with a marketing company so all year last year this marketing company built out complex funnels and by September they went somewhere close to 50 to $100,000 not one lead because they didn't understand they didn't own the strategy and they didn't know how to find their sales market fit. I've come on board did those numbers and went right this is what we have to do as a minimum and then we've got two leads in in the last week and it's been two weeks of working with them but changing the process and it's like walking before we can run and it's being realistic in doing effort it's so it's so critical you know yeah I can't agree more here think we've been already talking about a lot of common mistakes and or this is like a really typical one you've seen in one of your clients like what is a more common mistake you see companies make while trying to sell their B2B sales. There's a mix I think optimism is really really important as a salesperson it's also the Achilles heel as well so I think a common mistake people make is we try so hard to get people interested we do it demo we do a discovery call and we do a demo everything's going well and I say I'm really interested great I'll send you a proposal and then it fizzles out like you mentioned that before they let their emotion get the better of them instead of knowing that it quietly to go through a certain set of stages it could be informal or formal it just depends but they still have to go through these stages to see value so what they do is they get hyped up on emotion and I've done this before I said that's a great meeting we are 100% going to close them two years later haven't closed them so I think a large part of being a sales professional is undertaking the emotion out although it's exciting okay I know they need to go through these stages I can lead them through quickly but I know they need to go through this in order to purchase consistently and that's the biggest mistake they'll go we don't need to follow this process this time they said they're gonna buy and then it gets tripped up three months down the track because you haven't done what you needed to do another project gets prioritized or another platform gets prioritized in their business and next minute you're wondering what happened right you've wasted three months this is really identifiable especially as a founder to have that emotion in and to be really optimistic and to really trust on what people say and to drop the stages I think that's leaving myself now as well there's three critical skills I think it's one is optimism you need to get out of bed every day to think that the next big client's round a corner you need to be realistic to say they're probably not or when I get engaged with them I'm going to have to do all this effort they're going to have to go through these processes I might as well lead them through it because that increases my chances of a sale and then the other one is problem so I've got I don't know how to do that but I'm dedicated to figuring out and being the best data better than the competition and make my platform the undeniable choice in their business why wouldn't they buy us the question we need to ask is what do I need to do to make our platform that undeniable solution for them why wouldn't they want us instead of saying do you want to buy us though what wouldn't you we help you we give you such a ROI and take out so much risk whatever and prove safety whatever the value proposition is exactly and again it all starts with what you said at the beginning it starts with demand and you mentioned our problem solving if they don't have a problem they were aware of you have to create a problem so I think you already mentioned with the HR example like you need to create a problem just or modify it and then put it out there basically correct so one of the challenges as well if you're waiting to the market to come to you there's 70% through their buying journey which means they have formed a form solution of a formed vision of what the solution looks like in their business now if you're a differentiated product against the competition they're not looking for a solution that you are they have a like a frame of a solution probably similar to your clients are your competitors so the chances of you winning are not good when you stack up against when you're playing on a left playing field what I try to do and what I've done in my world is the strategy is how do I act different behave differently to outsmart the competition before they even know there's an opportunity now it requires a little bit more effort in the front end of the process it's a little bit longer to win a client but you win rate significantly increases because you're bringing them along and imagine you're working with a client two months or something before they go to market and you have framed the problem like you can solve a solution then the competitors don't have a look in one of my biggest wins ever was I met a client on an November of one year I worked with them on workshops and everything before they went to a public tender this is a New Zealand government agency they went to tender and we quoted a rate of something like $40,000 per month on five years deals and we closed on that MR at the end of a government procurement process because I worked hard on defining the problem but the best of all one of my biggest competitors which was a large software company out of the US the guy who was my nemesis in the region was dating someone in that business and he said I did not even know the tender was coming up till it was out and then we'd lost it before we even started and I was like that's the best win that I've ever had because I've swept it out from the competition because I did a lot more work up front it just had no choice. I mean especially deals like that you have to do in the work right because 40k I'm under curable you then you will have to do the work to make sure you you know the problem you create demand and then you go from there. Yeah and why the current existing competition we're not solving your problem. I wish it wasn't like that. I wish it was a speed of be startup. You could go in and go, hey, I've created this great product. You want to buy it and they were like, yeah, sure. It just doesn't work like that anymore. It's getting harder and harder to differentiate us. - Exactly. And when we talk about it's getting harder and harder, I can imagine you had a lot of challenges, obstacles, you face while selling of course, be-to-be-south solutions. Can you give us some more examples? - The way I got to this framework was like a five-year journey. It was very, very difficult. Australia is not a big market. When we were selling to power utilities, mining companies, and water utilities, so the market here is in the hundreds. You can't do lead generation like go through thousands and thousands. So we would go through and quickly get people interested, but they just were not taking any action. And it was like, well, what would I do? Why, if I was in their position, why would I not take action? It was like, well, I can't see the value. I was like, I can't quantify the value. I was like, okay, so at every stage of the journey, we got a little bit further with a client and then we got better at it. And then I started surveying their workforce of 2,000 people and showing them they're spending $100,000 a week on just searching for information or people had safety incidents by touching live wires because drawings were wrong. And it was only when I started doing that, they were like, wow, this is massive. And then we were created that momentum, but you can also create momentum and I can go straight past you to a competitor. You just have to, I've made every mistake under the sun. I forgot that I submitted pricing, got to an end of a tender and our tender was way higher and it was the worst meeting I've ever been in. I've had some disease, so, but you just can't be afraid to fail. You're just gonna fail, make mistakes and you just gotta be confident and trust the process that. Those mistakes get fewer and fewer and fewer over time. - Exactly. - I mean, you have to fall to get up again and learn. How do you see sales changing within companies right now? 'Cause of course, with the new normal being more online, big layers happening in tech. Do you see any changes happening within sales? - I know that businesses would like to go to sales, people like less businesses right now have sales people in there, but I think at a certain point, you're gonna need a sales team to actually help people walk through their complex buying process. It's getting difficult. There seems to be a cookie cutter approach at the moment with a lot of companies who do, they do the demo, try to close you on the call and do all sorts of things. What I see is people might go back into doing more differentiating themselves. Like the voice of the customer, a little bit more, I think about the customer, a little bit more. Gary Vee talks about this in marketing, right? You need to think about the customer first. A lot of businesses don't do that. They try and sell, hey, I've got a target. I need to close. Do you want to close instead of helping a client achieve their goals? I think you'll see some differentiation. I'm not sure about SDR. It depends if the process is right, but I think you'll see people aren't getting the results that they probably want. So they'll have to start focusing on the customer. And I believe they don't have their right framework or their right strategy that aligns to how their target markets buy. They haven't got their right sales market fit. - Yeah, and I think, I mean, it's really important what you see also in sales, right? Customer first. I recorded a couple of podcasts already, one regarding UX, one regarding customer success. And it all comes down there as well. You need to create value where, of course, but sales is more creating demand. But in the end, demand turns into value as in they wouldn't want to have your product, but they can get the value you proposed they can actually get. - Absolutely. Sales and CES are so aligned, because what you're saying is, this is the ROI that you'll get. You need CES to capture that ROI. And then when they want to expand the service into their business, they still need to go through this process. You just don't have to look trust because you already have trust. So someone wants to expand or go into another department. Okay, oh great. Well, let me show you that that's how you need to, you need to capture the value, demonstrate ROI, and still follow the sales market fit process. CES and sales are on the same continuum line that just separated by implementation. - Yeah, 100%. Like do you have to work together to make sure that you're in the end of the company grows? Why were you in BDB status to keep growing it? - One of the challenges that come with, like selling with a long pipeline, is sometimes you'll do an action, which sometimes I would do something in the beginning of a sales process, but you wouldn't see the consequence come out until six or seven months down the track at CES. And it was only when we were getting, you get the feedback that I'd go, "Oh, I understand that." Like for instance, we did an agile procurement process with this big company, and we thought we did the best implementation scoping, but it didn't work out like that. And I was like, "What have we done here?" And I was like, "They haven't seen the outcome. We need to focus on the outcomes that they'll receive from day one instead of features. Startup should talk in outcomes, not features, because they can't compete on features to their competitors, so but they can generate better outcomes." And I was like, "Ah, right. Now I developed a tool to demonstrate the current state, the outcome they would get from day one, or go live, and that eliminated that problem." But they just wouldn't see the impact for months until they got to that point down the track. So it's important that they work together. - Yeah, I think that's really important. I guess like outcomes, again, you can relate it back to value. What kind of value are they getting? So that is the key word. - Yeah, you have to be able to prove it. Anything that you say, that you have to be able to prove it, because people are not very trusting, and so you have to take that off the table. I can prove that we have helped others, and this is what you could expect, and we will work on proving that for you. - Yeah, and I mean, that's really important, right? You have to be trustworthy. So if you are going to create those numbers, basically creating that problem, quantifying it, make sure that you can prove it, and they will be able to get that. - Yeah, and it all starts even with lead generation, when you're trying to spark their interest. Hey, we help in this process around X, Y, and Z, you get this kind of result. Great, you've just demonstrated that. So you better carry that thread through the whole process and measure it when the time's right. - Yeah, when we zoom out a bit again, and talk about B2B Sills, like I always like to take things into different stages, what kind of advice would you give somebody who's just starting out and trying to grow their business to 10K money, we're currently having you? - My advice would be, is don't scale too quickly. You've got to be able to get the voice of the customer. You need to talk to as many customers as you can, or like having our policies of the value that you'll provide. I think of a sale as a journey, like at beginning, I recommend a journey in an end. So we need to get them to a starting point where we can demonstrate the most amount of value. Most problems in all software, in today's not B2B SaaS, but where we're trying to replace comes from duplicative processes, disparate sources of truth, manual effort, lack of visibility, all this kind of stuff. So aligning your solution is the opposite of that, but highlighting all the problems of the causes in their business, but practicing your message and doing that effort, and trying to talk to as many customers as you can, and aligning it to those problems, but then you'll find the right people. There'll be people looking for a solution, and they're the early innovators. As soon as you present your problem the right way, they'll buy you, you won't sell to them, and then you will, but you've got to find them, they're hard to find, they're very rarely rare. - Yeah, and in this case, when you say you, you mean the actual founders, so to come back to what we said before, don't hire a salesperson before you actually sold yourself. - If you can build a strong relationship with a company and they buy into your journey and they really love your mission, they respect you as a founder. That gives you a lot of leeway for lack of features or an MVP, so you want to be able to bring them on the journey with you and get behind you and root for you and want you to succeed. That's not going to happen with a salesperson. It's rare that it happens with a salesperson and only happens with a founder. So initially, and then you can transfer that to others, but they're going to buy the person really in the beginning, so don't be afraid of that. - Yeah, and when we go past that beginning, so I guess we go past the founder, founder, relationship, we're trying to grow towards like one million AR. What kind of advice would you give companies? - Yeah, there's a point that it comes where the founder becomes a hindrance. They slow the process down, they become a bottleneck. So what we need to do is start capturing that information as quick as we can. You'd think about those ROI calculators or their problems that exist in the market, both indirect and indirect and create a framework that they can add to to bring other salespeople into it and slowly bring them along the journey. So if we think about a sales process, here is where you close. Founder is always going to want to be involved in that later part for at least a long time. So bringing in a junior person or salesperson, so their skill set moves through the pipeline and gets closer to running a whole sale. But transferring that tacit knowledge of the founder is really critical and then having a system and process is in a framework in place where everyone can add to that body of knowledge and then recognizing where you are in the market and then doubling down any to the framework and scaling slowly. Don't bring on tens as people get right, we're ready to scale. Bring on one, then two, that works out, then bring on another couple, then you'll just have a momentum, a momentum will grow quicker. Yeah, and it will make things a lot easier as well. You can onboard the salespeople as you would like. If you can hire a fiber, then at the same time, there's going to be more difficult to maintain quality as well. Correct. And you've got to make sure that they follow that process that you work really hard to create. It's when it gets diluted and people go, "Now I'm not going to do that." This one little thing, I don't think I need to do it in this particular opportunity, but sometimes that one action can, you can follow an opportunity for, let's just say you're engaging with someone. You decide, I'm not going to engage with procurement or legal this stage, I'll wait right to the end. You get to the end and you go, "I wish I had it done that three months ago, I just wasted so much effort." Those were the questions regarding staging or the stage of company is in. I guess maybe one question regarding your company and what you're currently doing. Like you're advising BDB SaaS companies, right? Like what would be the ideal stage of company should be in for you to come on board and to really help them to grow faster? When a fund is ready to start approaching the market, so somewhere after seed, around seed before Series A, when they're starting to get some traction and they're comfortable actually, and they're willing a few deals over the line. like the tenacity is getting a couple of deals over the line. Then they want to start, they want to say, Hey, what's the pattern here? What am I doing? And then we can start putting that into a framework and going, Hey, this is the framework. You're probably doing this stuff that you don't know or consider doing this. And then we'll start building out the framework with a couple of those clients that we can go in and interview and start creating calculators or some anecdotes to demonstrate value in the lead generation and discovery process. But mainly I'm working with customers now or clients now that are just around seed, maybe pre-seed, moving into their, they've probably got three or four clients wanting to figure out how to do it quicker. They've gone through a lot of pain and gone, I can't continue to do this. I need to get faster at it. Yeah, that's, that's where I've been, I've been working with, you know, dozen of those clients now. And then I've also mentoring a heap of people where we met each other on growth mentor. Everyone's the same problem. They're trying to sell to quick, scale to quick and get just slowed down, not slowed down. Just take one step back to go four steps forward. Yeah. Maybe one final question regarding that as in, correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you are working towards more enterprise deals, right? Where you mentioned a company has four clients. Like what is the typical account value of one of your clients? Yeah, so it varies. Some are large ticket prices. Some could be like three, four hundred thousand a year, but my, some clients are, they're annual revenue somewhere between 1800 to two and a half thousand to five, ten thousand dollars a year. So it's all the same philosophy. Just some of the processes are quicker than others or small people are involved in the larger deals, as you would expect. So you need to work a little bit harder on rallying the buying personas or the groups of people in a committee to actually make sure that they demonstrate value when you bring them along the journey together. And but it's all the same process. Yeah, I can work with people where they would engage typically with the market. If you yourself serve product, it's not my skill set. It's where you need to engage with the sales team. We're coming to the end. Any final thoughts you want to share with other B2B SaaS founders, which we haven't covered yet? Just don't be afraid to walk before you run. Just take your time and engage with the market. Don't be afraid to fail fast. You're going to make mistakes. That pit in your stomach, if you're afraid to make calls is, it's always there. It's there when I make calls still and I've been doing sales for more than 20 years. But it gets quieter. The best thing about that voice is when you have a win and then you're so excited, that voice gets so much quieter. And you really got to get over it. Otherwise, your business will, is it risk or not succeeding? Your tacit knowledge or your subject matter expertise is really critical in seeing your business succeed. Chat GPDs, not you, AI is not you. Outsourcing it to a sales person is not you. You are the differentiator and don't be afraid of that. You should embrace it. I love it. And I can definitely relate to that. Final question. If people want to get in contact with you, what would be the best way to do so? You can get in contact with me on LinkedIn. I think you're going to put the Gavin Ty TYA on LinkedIn. I have a few downloads on my website, salesmarketfit.co. There's a startup sales secret book there as well. 20 different lead generation strategies. You're finding on YouTube, which I think you're going to put that in the notes as well. You're on. I'm also in the next couple of months, I'm going to release a B2B lead generation strategy or workshop for founders and sales teams between seed and series A. If anyone's interested in that, I'm taking only a small, I'm going to do the first few in person or online. So if anyone has ever challenges in that and they want to have a chat, you can reach out to me to apply and we'll see if there's a fit there. Yeah, salesmarketfit.co. You'll be able to find me there if nowhere else. Mr. Crayon, I read the book and I would definitely recommend already looking at that salesmarketfit.co or check out Gavin Ty on LinkedIn. No worries. Cheers. Thank you for today. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge and hope to see you soon again. All the best and I love what you're doing for the B2B SaaS community mate. So one day we'll get to shake hands and have a beer. I would love that. I'd have a plan to come to Australia again yet, but let's see. No worries. Thanks a lot. Thank you. You've been listening to Growing a B2B SaaS. Your run has been ahead of customer success before founding his own startup. He's experiencing the same journey you are. We hope you've gotten some actionable advice from the show and we hope you had fun along the way. We know we did. Make sure to like, rate and review the podcast in the meantime to find out more and to hook up with us on our social media sites. Go to www.getredidus.com. See you next time on Growing a B2B SaaS. www.getredidus.com.au.com.au.