S1E18: The Anger Underneath It All, w/ Beth Wanner

It hit me even when we're before recording and then one we're in the conversation is this idea of edited versions of ourselves. And I think I think that's because I've been trying to do a lot of work around the masks that I wear. And why do I wear them when are they actually really beneficial when are they actually a crutch and is that crutch okay right so there's all of that kind of stuff and so to hear. Your best talk about it from our perspective initially of I'm really angry that I have to edit myself. And that anger is so well founded like when you hear her story and hear what she's been through it so well founded but then to hear talk through it and recognize in fact that mask or that way that I'm editing I do know it actually is serving a really. Important purpose and is in fact still authentic to who I am right came out out at first is maybe this in authenticity because her whole brand is built around authenticity and then to say oh wait. That's not in authentic but it is something that I have to do and right now I'm angry about it and maybe someday I'll have a different relationship to it so. That was such a little tiny piece of this amazingly rich conversation but it's a piece for me that's just standing out at the moment yep and I think too that the editing. While it might feel uncomfortable is actually in service of a lot of things that deeply matter to her and that's not really true and I think what I'd love for listeners to grab from what you just shared as well is that. But I think that being doesn't always mean it's an authentic it actually can be in service of these other deeply important values. I thought that our conversation around anger just feels really relevant right now around what anger is how we process it how we stay present in our world amidst it. Actually I got a lot from that and we had a great conversation about what's underneath anger that I enjoyed and I just I have really appreciated the wisdom she brought to some tough questions. So yeah. Yes are going to really love it and we're likely going to bring her on for like three more episodes. I mean we joke about it on the episode but I think we'll probably be back. Yeah can't wait for y'all to listen. Welcome to can we say that out loud where your hosts Greer and Cara and here we have real conversations about working motherhood parts we share and the parts we don't always say out loud. Better guess we explore the tension the beauty the nuance and what becomes possible when we finally give those truths a voice. We are so excited to have Beth Warner on can we say that out loud with us today she is the founder and CEO of mother cover an agency offering interim and fractional coverage for parental and other forms of leave after a very long and rocky road to parenthood while building a high demand high stress career as a tech executive. Beth experienced firsthand the challenges individuals particularly women face in their careers when taking leave to care for their families and her executive role she also saw the very real logistical challenges companies experience when their employees need to step back from their work. Beth founded mother cover to create a win-win scenario offering individuals the ability to comfortably pause work when they need to while providing companies with experienced support to see them through meeting their goals until their team member returns mother cover offers the long overdue solution to a common challenge that's been in desperate need of a new approach. Beth thank you for being here with us today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation but before we get into it we would love to know how you're feeling about sharing your truth with us. Honestly I can't wait for this to be over and I say that in the most loving way that I so I love that we are getting to talk and I admire the platform and in conversations that you are all having that most of the podcast that I do and I do several a month follow a pretty specific formula. Of which my story talking about me is just kind of a setup to it and I believe we're going to go a little bit deeper into me and as outspoken as I am I'm not actually that comfortable with that and I never know what's going to actually fly out of my mouth when I am a little bit more off the cuff so. Yeah well we're so grateful that you are fitting in the discomfort and with us today to share that because I think a lot of us feel that way right there are things that we feel very open book about and yeah I do this and I I can speak about this but then when it comes to like just sitting in that discomfort about what the thing is that we're feeling. A little bit nervous to say out loud we kind of resist it or move away from it and so I just want to thank you or sitting in the discomfort with us yeah it does mean a lot and. We are not going to pivot away from you this time so your your your fear is probably well founded and it yeah to cars point. Just that humility and like oh I'm good with like five or so minutes on me and then I'm really really really study there and. I think yeah a lot of women can relate I definitely can personally as well and it is it's really meaningful that you're here so thanks for spending time with us talking about your journey as as a mother as a working mother and it it's clear that you've done a lot of trailblazing and the work is never over and. So with all of that what is the truth that you want to share with us today or a truth that you want to share with us today. The truth is that I don't have neatly packaged up is is is around. Anchor and still feeling a lot of anger for the path that has led me to founding mother cover and that it is not a buttoned up story so I think a lot of folks when they hear me tell tell my story and and what has has come out of it like the positive. Story of it like that it's told as past tense but it's not actually past tense I am in an ongoing legal battle over what happened to me and I still have. Unprocess trauma from going through IVF from bringing my daughter into the world that the way she was and and. How my career was was impacted by that and then when I see in corporate America on going but i'm always having to be measured in in how I approach that and how authentic I am about the anger i'm feeling. I am okay so we talked about we don't want you to be the secondary story here right I do think however it would be a little bit helpful for us to do a little bit of setup so that we can start to explore that anger the measured part of you why you feel like you have to be a little bit buttoned up. Well try to do the the quick origin story to what led to to founding mother cover but so i spent 15 years in tech in in leadership positions at the executive table was was climbing that corporate ladder always nervous about what it was going to me when I started my family but more so from. So like keep up my career is demanding I work a lot I love it who will I be as I I become a mother but eventually decide to go for and it didn't work out for for my husband and I we went through a fertility so navigated years of that which eventually led us to IVF. I was still like say climbing the corporate ladder I had changed companies so I never I didn't feel like I had. The support or the relationships yet sometimes at new companies to share what I was going through so I was navigating and fertility and IVF while keeping that a secret not that I really had any signals that people wouldn't be supportive but I was just. Aware of the the realities of putting up your hand to say i'm i'm planning to expand my family and. There's layoffs going on left right and center especially in the tech industry so I didn't want to put a target on my back to say well she might take leave anyway so let's just put her on the list. So now have it to navigate that experience I remember sending slack messages trying to come up with our companies corporate mission statement from a procedure table is I was getting a UI done at the time and I just wanted to be like i'm still available i'm still on nobody can suspect that i'm doing anything else. And then the way that the world unfolded is I finally did get get pregnant through IVF through our our second embryo transfer found out on a Sunday through doing blood work that I was finally pregnant and that Tuesday I got laid off. And so what I thought I was protecting myself against happened anyway. And since I was the breadwinner of my family, I needed to immediately go on the job hunt and find another job so I couldn't celebrate being pregnant. I had to hide it. And I had to again, probably not the first time, so the first time I guess measuring my anchor would have been at my body during infertility of why isn't this happening the way that it's it's supposed to happen. And correct friends if I'm being honest about when when they would get pregnant but also having to measure that because that's certainly not how you show love and support to your friends and it's not understood by anybody that's not hasn't gone through infertility. But then losing my job what you learn through going through infertility is you were living week to week month to month so you never have that time to sit with devastation. You immediately have to start kind of your next cycle and decide if you're trying again that that month. Same kind of happened for me in my career journey so when I finally got pregnant it was that high and then it was you don't have a job immediate low but not being able to process that because I need to get another job. So I have to have to hide what's going on with me again can't be overly upset about anything I need to be professional and get that next job. Thankfully or unthankfully if anybody knows where this story goes I got another VP of marketing job at another tech company got the job offer told them I was pregnant wasn't expecting congratulations but certainly wasn't expecting what I got what I got was my worst nightmare of them. Why did you choose us insinuating that I was going to ruin their company I was the first female executive hire the founder went on about that they put their blood sweat and tears into this company and look what I was doing and how dare you. How dare I yeah in that moment to like shock but immediately having to to hide my anger and almost gravel of like don't worry this isn't i'm going to make sure I remember saying over this isn't going to be a burden on you I'm going to make sure everything is set up really well. And i'll come back and and this is just going to be a blip in what's supposed to be our long term relationship being part of building this company with them and trying to say anything and everything I could. To make it okay and and be a public and I hate like a non apologetic woman yeah but in that moment I felt like I had to I had to swallow my pride they were stuck and I was stuck so I actually started working there after that as well to and it was. Awful of every day again having to push down that anger and pretend that this was okay like oh I understand why you felt that way and then. The reasoning that they kind of backpedaled into while we just were surprised we wish you would have told us that in the in the interview we would have reacted well as. I don't believe that but I have to smile and say yes of course and and go on my way and then I developed present plus and to previous which meant my was and it was was blocking which put me in a high risk pregnancy it was not moving I ended up having to. My my doctor said I need to have a schedule C section at at 36 weeks because I if I went into labor naturally I was at risk of leading out and dying and and my daughter not making it either so I told my new boss that now I need it to go out five weeks early. And three working days later let me guess let me guess yeah yeah so no was I met with any sort of compassion anything no. And then of course the worst of it so I then was on a zoom call on a Monday and fired at eight months pregnant no hope of finding another job at that point but also then in that moment. I felt shocked I did not cry because I just I had no space for that because now I'm also trying to to control any any stress and anger because I meet months pregnant in a high risk pregnancy is like I don't want to harm my daughter I don't want anything to happen so what do I need to what actions do I need to take. And that was immediately get on the phone with I think I called six different lawyers getting advice about what happens next and that's what I was doing in the lead up to this C section now was was hiring a lawyer and and and going about that process so. And then usually where the story goes is then I found a mother cover and that's how we work. And then it's beautiful and there are rainbows and sunshine that's not what we're doing today that's what we're doing and it sounds like that immediately happened there was a year in between that in between that happening and and founding mother cover by again in those moments where I'm supposed to be getting the maternity leave that I just ramped about and just absorbing newborn cuddles I am doing that but I'm doing that with a lawyer on the other end and navigating this end again immediately going on another job hunt thinking I need to to find a job and that's also part of the legal process you have to show that you are trying to mitigate your your losses so I'm required to do this now and I'm interviewing and feeling such dread every time because I think when this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing right now. How do I tell the story because I can't be the angry person again who got fired at eight months pregnant that story doesn't get you the next job. And it's navigating that space and slowly throughout that year I kept thinking about the idea for for mother cover and how something needs to come out of this that isn't just me going back to work as if nothing has happened. So that ended up giving me purpose and somebody along the road that I met and it's kind of bouncing this idea of mother cover around and then also talking about my legal case she had said pay attention to how your energy feels when you're fighting for something versus fighting against something. And that was very true I felt so good when I was working on mother cover and feeling like something positive is going to come out of this beyond my daughter my daughter's most positive thing that has come out of this and and I think going through IVF that was the most worst moment in my my life. Not this which I also have to be measured in saying because there are lawyers that are listening to this that need to hear that this is the worst moment of my life and it's uncomfortable from that. Sorry it's not it's the second worst moment in my life at the first prepare me for this one it put in perspective that I can survive that I can certainly survive this. Yeah and you shouldn't have to right like that's that that's part of it of course you can and I think so much of what was coming up for me through through your origin story and what you've just shared is this idea of ambitious women figuring out what to do next when the hit comes you just figure out what to do next and then the next it comes and you figure out what to do next. And for a long time that can feel really good and then there comes a point where it maybe doesn't feel quite as good and I'm wondering kind of if you hit that point what that was what that experience was like for you. Even with with with founding mother cover and then I have to share that through through the legal process because they're asking are you working are you do you have an income that now and I do. I think it's against you of well look she's successful again she's coming to get income yes and I was just like but that I'm not getting giving you again on a jail free car because of who I am right right you just happen to be lucky that the person that you took down was was was me that was able to rebuild. And then putting that work on the shoulders of women to rescue themselves that doesn't make what you did any less wrong yeah yeah your story I'm like okay Beth this is part one of six your story covers a lot of really important ground a few things stand out that are highly relatable one is multiple rounds of IVF unsuccessful. go science, whoa, it worked, juggling it while full time. You're the way you put language to certain things really took me back to just some really dark chapters of my own. And I got so hardened by that experience and juggling the two world simultaneously, this like fierce pursuit of becoming a mother and it just wasn't happening. Lots of disappointing news, lots of like, why don't you come to the back room while trying to like really honor my professional ambition. And so I don't want that piece to get lost for listeners. And maybe we do have a follow up conversation about highly ambitious women doing IVF because of you 100% I would do that any day. But a nightmare, horrible, I have horrible body goosebumps because it's just like I'm back there and like if you could see my hands are like class. Yeah. Mine are too. I'm like, do you see I have this in my lap right now because I am placed in the mail room of where I worked while I was going through IVF and I can just feel every part of it. Yeah. We get that part in our own ways and yeah, our babies were born in petri dishes and wow that that's even possible. And I also can highly relate to a fatal placenta issue and needing to deliver your baby early and the fear and the disruption and I wasn't met with anything other than kindness from like my work. So like that had to have added an unbelievable layer of stress on top of like all the things you're already navigating. And so I just want to and being the breadwinner. I mean. Yeah, part one of six. Yeah. Deep breath. I mean, that's what that's what I feel like we all need to just like this. Just to wrap around it. When you first started talking about your anger, I find anger to be one of the most important emotions that the human. Can feel mainly because I think there is a lot of stigma around anger and around angry women. So I think that's worth talking about and how that holds us back and how it can work in our favor. And also that right underneath anger lives sadness. I find that to be a beautiful component of what anger can give us access to. So when I say all of that about anger, what comes up for you, Beth. One that I think you're you're right that the root of it is more sadness. So for some reason, it's easier to sit with anger than then sadness of sadness. Sadness feels like victimization, I guess, where and then when you. Characterize yourself are a strong ambitious woman sadness feels weak anger feels valid, but still measured. So I think it's also just like something that's very relatable and frankly to some weird extent normalized. Yeah, yeah, so and honestly, as you were telling your story, you know, I'm like no wonder. I mean, that's just like layer upon layer upon layer of anger. And some things are behind you now, right? Your daughter isn't safely in the world and you've built and are building this truly phenomenal and important line of work, right with mother cover. And yet, you know, anger still lives there. How would you describe what the anger looks like feels like for you now or what kind of thoughts are behind the anger for you now. The word that I keep going back to is that that measured word and that the public persona that I have out there is is that this we're on the other side of it. But I don't think I ever will be even even if even when well when my legal case is is wrapped up. Well, because it's not I have to be I have to be composed for the legal system because losing it is not likable. And unfortunately, you do have to be likable. You have to be credible and emotion doesn't signal in our society credible. And then on the other side of it, my client is corporate America. Which I believe that we attract those who are on the more progressive, supportive side that wanting to do right by by parents and caregivers, but not always. Sometimes it really purely is is a business decision and they've got a role that's vacant that they need somebody in because it's tied to revenue or a really important launch or XYZ and and you can feel that and I have to swallow that a little bit because I'm at the end of the day as I got I'm going to. I'm going to save this I'm going to support this parents role and that's the role that we're here to play even though it's it's the company that pays us it's the it's the individual that we're stepping for that I view as as our as our client that every time that I'm being outspoken about what's broken in our in our systems in our corporate culture. I have to come at it from the lens of but it's fixable it's not intended by a lot of good leaders and and for the most part I do do believe that bet. I'm always having to edit myself and and what I put forward is is a brand that's built on authenticity so it's hard to say that as authentic as as I present it's always edited in some way. Before we hit record we were talking about that a little bit right this idea that it's a brand built on authenticity and then there's an editing component to it and that sometimes that editing is authentic for that moment in time. And I think it depends on your relationship to that editing to that mask that you might have to put on and i'm curious for you what is that relationship like for this edited version that has to be out there in the world. Sometimes like you say it's it's necessary for for the situation again whether it's on the legal side whether it's on working with with the clients that we have and sometimes it's it is from a more healthier standpoint of going back to to that advice of pay attention to your energy when you're fighting for something then fighting against something. If I maybe didn't have that layer that I have to edit myself I could get sucked really into the dark side of this where like everything that I look at is through the lens of that anger and that's how I likely felt when I hadn't started mother cover yet and I was thinking of going back to. To like a corporate job and was interviewing again I was if anybody is listening to this that I did interview with this isn't about you are your company but it was the lens that I was coming at it oh I didn't trust myself anymore of when I had joined the company that I had joined I thought I was joining a really great culture. I thought I had found the place that was going to be supportive of me and this was going to be my next long term place to be so I didn't trust my judgment anymore and it was always in my mind of well what don't I know about this person or this company how will it unveil itself is being toxic or. Not not the rate fit in in the end so that's just kind of an example of how that lens can then filter the way that you look at everything in the world and that's not a good place to be in either but. Finding some sort of release of where is safe to be angry is something that I'm still searching for yeah where you found that so far as you say beyond the therapist chair yeah and to my husband and in some some save course as well but there's even parts of probably this that would be a lot for him to hear as well too because I feel like protecting. Him and it's a lot for your wife to just lay down at your feet to say like here's all the things that feel crushing it in this moment and then he takes on that that stress because he's really empathetic and. And supportive to and then we have this daughter that were raising that I don't want her to feel any of this that's going on to feel a lot of guilt when. My husband will call me out when he can see that I am working even if I'm not sitting in front of my desk he's like I can see you're. You're at your wheels turning and that usually happens on a day where I am dealing with the legal case where I've got an email or call from my lawyer or the human rights commission and. There's a whole lot of people who are looking for a solution. another topic there that I can go into of how that system is so broken and does not support individuals. And I understand why most women sign their severance offers and don't fight back in in these scenarios because this the system is awful. But then I'm sitting with that and it's very hard to turn off. So even though my daughter is home and we're having dinner and that's sort of thing. My husband would be like, yeah, snap out of it. You're not fully here at this moment. And then I feel such guilt for for that and that those have been the times where I wanted to sign a settlement offer to be like, I just need this to go away. So I can move on with my life. The reality is I never will regardless of whether it's signed or not. This is part of me now. Would you mind speaking briefly how would you describe how motherhood has been and how all of this fits into how you've related to the big title change of mother as well? I'm also careful in how I say this, but it's been a lifeline. Like I'm so proud to finally be a mom. Sorry. We never want to say apologize for trying. She makes everything worth it. And I just can't I can't wait for the day when I'm also nervous for the day of when she realizes how much of her just being here is part of the story of what I'm building. But that's where it comes with with both sides of how is she going to to feel when she was like, oh, it was because you were pregnant with me that you lost your job and your whole world turned upside down. But then I want to see the positive side of like you are such fuel for what I'm doing because this can happen to her. I want to know whether she's going to have a family or not whether she's going to pursue a corporate career or or not. She has those choices. It is what I want to to to exist for her. So when I feel guilty about I work, if I am traveling, those sort of things, I am I it's the type of mother that I always thought I wanted to be of. I'm not I was never going to be a stay-at-home mom though I admire those who choose that path. And sometimes I felt guilty about that of like I've always wanted to be a working mom. And as I'm going to set an example for her and she's going to be watching what what I'm building. So yeah, motherhood has just been fuel, but like I don't recognize myself from from four years ago. And that used to that would have scared me for those who told me but it was even probably part of my hesitation of when the rate time to start a family because their like motherhood's going to change you. And I was like, well, but I really like me now and I know me. Yeah. Now this person is this is my recipe for for being successful. I didn't want to change. But it's the best parts of you. With new best parts of you. Yes. But I'm cautious about that is because I can also think to who I was going through IVF and and infertility. And having somebody say like, you don't know love until you have a child and all those sort of things. I was like, now that I know the other side of it, it's even more sad thinking about that person and what she would have missed out on and that other women doing. I feel like I get it. I and guilt is such and we talk about this a lot just what mom guilt I think it's misinterpreted as and what's actually there. So that might be part three of our six part series with you bet. And as I was listening to me, what I was saying was like, oh, I didn't know what love was until I was actually on the other side of IVF and I was able to witness like who I became along the way. And all three of us here, signs worked for us, right? Amidst heartache and disappointment and miscarrying and it not working out and we'll take you to the back room. But we all, we we got success from it. And I look back and I'm like, oh, the, the version that I started out as and the version that I turned into like, I love that process. Now, you couldn't pay me to do it again. You know, there's not enough money you could give me to like start at ground zero again because it's that hard. Yeah. And I agree like how, how did you say it? It's the best parts of you and the new best parts. I totally agree with that. And I appreciate how you describe just what motherhood is for you in this moment. And it will likely change the months go by in the years go by. And I love that perspective too because a lot of times when we think about motherhood and especially as a professionally ambitious woman, we think that we've lost something. I mean, that's the narrative that is shared. Like you lose this edge or you lose the ability to be at 100% or you know, like we talk about it so much from that loss perspective. I loved, you know, you I think if anyone was watching video like we I think Greer and I both were like taken a back when you said the best parts of who you were and the best parts of who you who you are now. Whatever got phrasing was is such a beautiful reframe on that. Like it's a different and it's a beautiful different. And it's and it's what I see every day now and what can again be the both sides of can be infuriating when you see that not valued in our society, especially corporate cultures. But then the positive side is that I am seeing it more and more with either the individuals that join us as leave partners that step into to leave or the roles that we're helping to protect and the conversations that are out there of trying to change perceptions of when somebody expands their family or takes a leave, they're coming back better. They're kind of different and they need to be supported in different ways. But if you embrace that you're getting somebody who is such an asset to your company and somebody fiercely loyal, are we talking about moving mountains for companies when you support somebody who's gone through parental leave or caregiving leave medical mental health because it's unfortunately still so rare and we discount those individuals and we almost force them to discount themselves. And I see that shifting now. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I have someone pretty close to me who's very high up at one of the largest tech companies in the world and yeah, you know, breadwinner, high-powered position, high-stress position, very accomplished, very good at what she does and has had two pregnancies and the word that comes in phenomenal leave policies, like a month off before the due date, nine months off, like the golden on paper, right? Pretty crushing for her around anxiety and relevance and it's a long time to step to the side and am I still valued and I have no way to actually measure or ensure my value. And so actually this extended leave was pretty devastating for her and I would love to hear your thoughts on women and professionally ambitious women and relevance while this pursuit of motherhood. What would you what would be your perspective on it? Yeah. I say that was really one of my main concerns before I've been thinking about all the the external was when you're in a fast-paced career that companies move very quickly you are now things can change in a quarter. How to stay relevant and how to stay visible because we're still in a society and corporate culture that values visibility and presentlyism and proximity. So when you disappear for a while that can feel really scary even in the most supportive companies it and that's why particularly for women in senior leadership positions even when you have generous leave policies it can feel like an undercover test of of loyalty of yeah sure you can take this long but will you you'll still be one foot in right because you you need to keep a finger on the projects that are staying connected to folks and not to to flip too much into to plug in mother cover but it is one of the the foundations of how we come at things that we really want to when we step into somebody's role we talk about it's a dual responsibility you're stepping into somebody's professional reputation while also having to perform and execute that job for for the company but coming at it through you don't have to be a woman you don't have to be a parent but many of our lead partners are so I'll generalize it by saying almost like a sisterhood of it's usually women who everybody on on early partner roster has to have a minimum of 10 years of experience. We we average closer to 15. We've got individuals who are 20 and 30 years into their career. So it's folks who are at a point in their career where it's not really about what else am I adding to to my resume. But how do I use my skills and experience to benefit somebody who's either on the leader shift to trajectories has their spot and needs to needs to keep it. So how do we keep their room name spoken in the rooms that they're temporarily not in. Make sure that it's known that it's their strategy that we're executing and it's it's their role that we're there to to hand back to them. So it's not not perfect, but it's a small way to say like you have a partner in this. Our job is to make you you look good and to feel it as stress-free as it possibly can be that you're taking that time away but feel a little bit more protected that you can. What a beautiful way. I mean right now I'm just like in awe because how beautiful that it isn't just like a month stepping in and executing because I think a lot of people might be able to do that right just execute but they're going to be executing in their way or they're going to be doing it kind of autopilot-y and for you to have built something that allows for the person on leave to feel as though they are really almost solidifying their space rather than being in fear of it being gone is just such a gift. Yes, that's definitely the core of it and why I still start everything with my story of this is why it comes from an authentic place and then when I had first shared my story the floodgates opened up hearing from so many other women where where I wasn't alone and then feeling the rage and anger of why is this still seen as such a destruction or a threat when when somebody's going on on leave and building a solution for that and what's really inspiring I think with this generation and the generation coming after is that there isn't this feeling at all and individuals who join early print and rust again don't have to be parents but many of them are and many of them have their own story of going on leave and not being a good experience but every single one of them wants to provide better for somebody who comes after them yeah so there's no longer this feeling or this sentiment that it was hard for me it's going to be hard for you I don't see that at all and I think that's something that is going to really change. Yeah well back one of the things that we like to do at the end of each episode is just ask our guest if there is a piece of unsolicited advice some words of wisdom or even a tool or reflective question that you might leave our listeners with so I'm just curious as you think through what we've talked about or just the type of work that you do what would you leave our listeners with today. Yeah this is probably going to be traditional it's going to be very basic but if you are sitting in your anger and don't feel like you have a channel for it or just need to kind of like rock out to something go find Brandy Carlyle's cover of Alanis Morsez uninvited and do your primal scream if you know you know if you don't please go look this up that I think is the best outlet and I think we can all do that together as as women I love that they're coming back up as as a voice again of a new generation and I think we really need those two women right now. Yes I love it. I think this might be my favorite tool that we've ever gotten. No one has recommended a song yet and I mean no we're all that. I mean Alanis Morsez two in her own right but I do want to spotlight Brandy Carlyle she's just phenomenal. Yeah I was listening to that yesterday morning and I was just like yeah this is the new new anthem and a new anthem of an old song but the way that Brandy does this cathartic scream it is just like that is all women right now we maybe need that and then go on a for dick. That's right that's right. Yeah definitely I'm going to go listen when we're done here. I was going to say I know what I'm doing this afternoon. Sure. It's really such a gift to have you. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and your story and a lot of relatability from my end so and I really really really I'm inspired by the work you're doing. Likewise thanks for creating this this space to have these types of conversations. Thanks Beth it was great to have you. Thanks for being here with us on can we say that out loud. If this episode resonated share it with another working mom who might need it and as always we'll be back soon because none of us are meant to figure this out alone.