S1E11: ADHD, Procrastination & The 'Anti-Planner' + Dani Donovan

I'm Julie Leg, author of The Missing Peace and Ignose with ADHD at 52. Welcome to ADHD Difference. In this episode I'll be speaking with Danny Donovan, founder and CEO of the Anti-Boring Project, who work in powers individuals with ADHD to understand themselves and better communicate some of the struggles that they have with their loved ones. She is well known worldwide for who ADHD comics and her works have been published in the likes of The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, on BBC News and also featured in my book The Missing Peace. Danny is a public speaker and an ADHD author in her own right. She's written and published The Anti-Planer. How to get shit done when you don't feel like it. Yes, it's all about procrastination and some very creative strategies in there to help. Well, I'm delighted to have Danny Donovan and today. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat. Julie, thank you for having me. Great. Well, you are known worldwide, of course. We will ADHD comics and we will go into that in great detail. But you have ADHD yourself. I was wondering if we could start off by you sharing a bit more about that. What age you would diagnose and what led you to that diagnosis? I actually didn't get diagnosed until my freshman year of college. But my mom had asked my, I knew it was my third grade or my fifth grade teacher. I just found out too that she also asked my third, sorry, third grade teacher. So third grade teacher and fifth grade teacher, if I could have ADHD. And my third grade teacher said, well, she's not having a hard, you know, having a hard time in school. She's getting fine grades. Like I think that she's fine. And then my fifth grade teacher, when I'm asked again, had said she can't have ADHD. She's too smart. So that like leans right into that, I'm saying stereotype of what someone with ADHD, especially girls with ADHD, look like. And then I, but I went to college and you know, I've been getting great grades. I've been getting great grades. Went to college and had, you know, 8 a.m. classes and no parents, no parent structure there to make sure that I was I was taking care of myself. So like I was getting to class. I was getting my homework done. But the self care was really challenging and defeating myself and the car maintenance that I didn't realize that my dad was getting my oil changed. You know, like I had there were some privilege based things that I just hadn't had to take care of on my own. And then there were just some like truly just executive dysfunction related things. And I was having a hard time feeling like I was struggling to make friends again. And I'd moved to a different city. Went to see someone about depression. And she heard through my conversation with her that, you know, I was changing topics constantly. I'm like, I'm apologizing. And she asked me, she goes, is anyone back to you about ADHD? And the, I said, what no. And I had that like kind of internal flare up of like everyone I know with ADHD is like, I hate saying it now. But, you know, like I'm annoying, I remember like I'm annoying boys with no friends. That was the association that I had. And I was like, I don't want that. I don't want that. And then she handed me just a sheet of paper with like the list of the symptoms on it. And I read it and I was like, Oh, no. Okay. And then was able to to yeah, get started with treatment and started on meds. And you know, you take them and I was getting some help. But it was just like, Oh, I could have been like this the whole time. So being able to have that moment. But again, it was so, it by chance, but I didn't go in seeking a diagnosis. I didn't know about, you know, my mom having asked my school teachers, I was obviously uninformed about the condition itself. And what I said, I didn't want to have it. The nurse practice psychiatric nurse practitioner disclosed me that she actually had ADHD. And so she recognized herself in me through how I was talking and through my communication style, which is so funny because my ADHD storytelling comic was like what, you know, cut my first comic, it kind of kicked everything off. But the role that ADHD can play in the way that we communicate, you know, through quite difficulty prioritizing and staying focused and stuff like that. I think that that's a really under looked symptom of ADHD. But it was a quirk of ADHD. And I feel very grateful that she that she caught it. That's that's amazing. And wonderful for you that it was picked up on relatively early. And so with that knowledge and you understanding of yourself to then to be able to progress your life from that point, with the knowledge that you may need some tools or as you said, you have medication, which is one of the many tools, I guess, that have taken you through to the next step. And I must talk about your amazing comics. Now, how did that come about? I know the subject matter is it's just so beautifully honest and resonates with so many. Were you always an artist? Was this a natural progression, post diagnosis, or how did that come about? So I have wanted to be an artist like since I remember wanting to be anything. I have always had that as my creative expression and writing writing and drawing. We're always kind of my favorite things. And when I was younger, starting like, yeah, I think third grade, I wanted to be a cartoonist for the Sunday funnies. Remember this, I was in New Zealand, but the you guys have the Sunday funnies that were in the newspaper. There's like comic strips. Yeah. And so I loved those. I grew up with Calvin and Hobbs, reading, reading, reading and just developing a sense of how much I loved humor being injected with art at a very young age. And I was like making my own little comics. And then I kind of dropped out from that in seventh grade when I found out about graphic design. And I had this really mind blown moment of realizing that someone would design every single like thing I could see was made by a person. And I remember having that moment and be like, that's what I want to do. And I picked it. And I just genuinely like stuck with it, which is one of the very few things in my life that I that I picked and didn't quit. And so graphic design really was my path, my career path. And I ended up at as a graphic designer for Gallup, who does like the polls and the Gallup poll and clips and strengths and stuff like that. And I had just started at this job and was talking with a few of my co-workers about therapy because someone had brought up what they were talking about in therapy. I'm like, this is a thing that we can just talk about because I've had friends who are also in therapy and none of we've never talked about what we talked about in therapy. And so it became this really like safe space where I then was like, all right, I'm going to open up that I have ADHD because I've never told co-workers before. I've only ever told bosses typically when I was getting a trouble. And I had to disclose, right? And I opened up and told them I had ADHD and everyone, no one was surprised. And doing so without the fear of judgment, like they were going to treat me differently or think less of me, I was able to sort of joke about my symptoms in a way that made for some really interesting inside jokes. So the long and short of my first comic was that we had an inside joke that the conductor for my train of thought, his name was Donnie Danovan, was like really bad at his job and wanting to take all these detours to like make sure you don't miss out on any cool sights on the way there. And I thought to myself, what if I could draw what Donnie's journey looked like from the start of story to the end of story. And I ended up making this storytelling graphic that shows the convoluted ways in which we communicate. And I showed it to my co-worker and she goes, that's amazing, this is just like you. I'm like, yeah, I made it. And I wasn't going to post it anywhere because I had not told disclose to my boss that I had ADHD yet. And he followed me on Instagram. And she's like, well, you could just post it on Twitter because you don't have a big following or anything. So nobody will probably see it. And then Aaron Brook, who's who's you know, made a lot of great ADHD kind of over the years, retweeted it. And it just hit the exact right like niche audience at the exact time where there weren't really any there wasn't anyone making specifically ADHD comics at the time. And it really like blew up. And I was reading the comments and seeing how many people were crying because that that after end of story on the ADHD side is as apologize. And so many people were were coming to the realization of like how guilty they felt and how much they felt the needs to to say sorry for taking up space or taking up time in space. Because we're maybe used to people getting annoyed at us for taking too long to get to the point. And so realizing how many people were affected and how many people felt themselves seen and were able to share this piece of content with their loved ones to be like, look, it's not just me or people seeing the loved ones and be like, oh, is this an ADHD thing? And it really lit this fire under my butt to make more of them to do this sort of like public art therapy, self-expression. that ended up not just with comics, but with infographics. Because when I was at Gallup designing, I think that really truly me being at Gallup and being a designer who I'm working in tables and charts and bar charts and all kinds of data. And I combined that like data visualization, infographic mentality with the working through an education of ADHD I was kind of doing with myself. I was a very long answer about how I tell a lot of it. - No, I'm sorry, so I'm not. No, I love it. And I thought it was interesting, you noted about the apology that I'm sorry. I also used to do that, particularly as a teenager. I almost apologized and advanced with everything. And you know, breakfast is ready, calls my mother and my responses, I'm sorry. - If I pre-apologize, people are less likely to get mad at me. - Yeah, it was pre-apologizing. - Yes, yes, yes. I either should ask me 10 times before and I hadn't noticed or there must be some reasons. So I'll just say sorry. And to the point that years later, she'd just say, just stop saying sorry. And I mean, oh, sorry. Which is crazy. Anyway, I've grown out of that slightly with more knowledge. But one of the ADHD storytelling comic itself, 100 million views, did I read that right? - Yes, that. - Wow. - And I didn't put a watermark on it. - That is outrageous. And if that didn't give you the encouragement to keep going, that's brilliant. Now, your work is featured in many media outlets too. We've got New York Times and the Guardian, my book. - Yes. - Highest honor. - Yes, yes, yes. - Yeah, no, but it's wonderful to see it out there. And I think people will certainly recognize your style of not your name, absolutely everywhere. But you're not only an illustrator, you're also a public speaker too. Can you share more about what you do in that space? - I would love to. I really enjoy public speaking, which is one of those things that I know a lot of people have a bunch of kind of fear surrounding. But I was a theater kid. I loved being in plays. I was on a debate team. And there's something about, and I loved having the PowerPoint in class that the teacher asked if they could keep kind of a thing. And so I've always really enjoyed presenting stuff, especially presenting information. And I think that that goes back to my, the comics and the data visualization of how to package, design, and present information in a way that is clearly digestible for people, matters a lot. And so for the public speaking, I started off my, I was a public speaking journey at the Microsoft Center with a talk that I wrote called The Art of Self Disclosure, how I became an ADHD influence overnight. And I talk about the psychology of opening up and through social penetration theory, how we decide the basic information or likes and dislikes, or beliefs and things of how we communicate with each other. And then in the middle, there's this shame area, right? This deep dark core of that maybe you touch on in therapy or talk about your best friends with. But most people don't know, don't see that side of you. And so I think that that really is truly one of the reasons why my comics hit people so hard is because it's, they see themselves, they see someone expressing this dark, deep dark part, the things that they're shamed of, the things they don't like about themselves, and they can feel the sense of like catharsis. And so I love, I love, that's kind of where I started, and I really loved talking about that. But it turned into, then my next speaking gig ended up for Adobe and I made one for designing for the ADHD brain, understanding and accommodating executive dysfunction. So I got to use my graphic design knowledge and pair that with case studies of here are some digital products that are doing a really great job of accommodating certain ADHD symptoms. And here are the design solutions, some design solutions for how to accommodate these symptoms. And then, you know, started going into like Amazon and Microsoft and doing ones on ADHD in the workplace. And here are some symptoms that ADHD employees struggle with. And here are some strengths that you might not realize are strengths that we bring to the table when you're expecting us to do all of this and also everything everybody else is doing. And try to explain the difference between endurance, runners and sprinters, right? Because we are often sprinters. And I want to go, go, go, go, go, go. Now I need a break. And then I go, go, go, go, go. And now I need a break. And to expect the consistent output of some other people is an unrealistic expectation. And then beyond that kind of going into what I'm doing now is a lot more talks for psychologists and psychiatrists and therapists and ADHD coaches on here is how we can maybe bridge the gap between the knowledge, the clinical knowledge and the lived experience. Because there is a big difference in how they are taught about ADHD in school. And the things that we now know and that are more openly expressed on the internet and being able to give mental health professionals tools and let them know about communities and let them know how much ADHD friendly accessible advice is on the internet for them to give clients to empower them to be able to help solve their own problems. And then I've got a whole talk about my how to get stuff done when you don't feel like it. Anti-planar talk that going through here are the different ways to make things interesting or make things matter or here's how to create your own stuff. So the question was not necessarily what are all of your talks but there's so many fun different ways to express things that I'm interested in and how they go inside with ADHD. I think you're doing a mighty job and it's that conversation I believe that needs to continue. You know, it's not, it needs to just keep rolling and I think the more pockets of society and the workplace or lots of different industries really, they need to understand it. And I love the bridging the gap between the scientific or the clinical and Joe average on the street because they, yeah, there is, yeah, they're missing the point in some parts. And there are often ways, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, no, I was just going to say that it's things like this that's how the DSM will adapt over time because it's not just based on clinical trials, it's about that experience as well. And so yeah. And some of the things that are phrased in the current way that the DSM is set up, which sets up girls, especially to be missed because some of those questions that are like, I make careless mistakes. And people go, I don't make careless mistakes because I check everything three times. And it's like these overcompensations, especially for not just girls, but like people who are older, who have been, who have been forced to come up with coping strategies to be able to function in society thinks that they don't struggle with these things because they can't see how much structure they built into their life in an attempt to, I have like goosebumps, in an attempt to be able to function because again, so much of the things that people get mad at us about are due to our difficulty conforming with societal expectations. 100%. I always told you-- I got a whole soap box over here. I always refer back to the standard narrative being, whatever in us thinks we should do, or perhaps our perception of what we think they think we should do, which is another interesting one to-- along with that, Kellis mistakes, who've also got forgetfulness, or being late, my husband will never be late for anything. He also has ADHD. He's always half an hour early, so much so that it's ridiculous. But one does-- I have the bad guys. Yeah, so you're right. There are some things that strategically we put in place, and notes to our knowledge of having ADHD. You were talking-- you did reference your book, which is delightful, The Anti-Planer. Now, this is absolutely awesome. I'd like you to tell me all about that, please, Danny. Of course. So the Anti-Planer was initially a kind of compilation of-- I don't actually think I have it next to me anymore-- of a field guide that I had started making, which contained different ways that I was trying to get myself to do stuff when I had left my job. So I actually-- I quit my full-time job at Gallup in the last day of February in 2020. And it was like two weeks late. I had two weeks of like, all right, I got this. I'm going to take on my business classes. I'm going to do this in this and this. And then it was like, shut down everywhere. And like, what did I do? Why did I just quit my job? I cannot believe the timing of this. But ultimately, I think that that timing was important, because I might have been too afraid to leave if I didn't because that stability. And so I made some exercises trying to get myself to self-regulate in the same way that in college, where I lost this structure that I didn't realize that I needed. I lost workplace structure. Working for yourself when you've got ADHD is like a whole different can of worms of difficulty with internal motivation and holding yourself accountable. So they started as like little ways to trick myself as well as I had been taking ADHD coaching with Dusty Shapura, she is amazing. And she helped to empower me to think about procrastination differently as far as how do I identify? What is making me not do this? What actually is getting in the way? What mental roadblock? And then can I sort of tease that apart and see it for what it really is? And so the anti-planar as it went on became this like toolbox of all the coping strategies that I'd accumulated over the years as well as ones that I was like having fun just making up like, how can I make a blackjack, procrastination blackjack game? And I did something along the lines of like, you write down three tasks and if you flip over the cards and it's like 16 to 18, you only have to do two tasks. If it's 19 to 20, you do one task. If it's 21, you don't have to do any. But if you bust, you have to do all three, right? And so I really enjoyed how do I take the idea of like gamification and chance and also the chance to not have to do anything. Like building in an opportunity for permission from the universe to procrastinate, I think is one of the things that keeps me and keeps other people coming back 'cause we need finally hit it. It's, A, it's exciting and then B, sometimes you go, oh well, I actually did want to get stuff done and then you do stuff anyway, even though you didn't have to. And there's this whole other level of feeling proud of yourself when you feel like you were given permission to procrastinate and then you don't. And I think that there are some really like empowering elements. But the way that the book is broken up is by emotion. So there's like the stuck, oh, I can't get it close to the thing. But there's like the stuck section and then you flip it over and it says, how are you feeling? There's difficulty getting started, indecisive, perfectionistic or distracted, which is sort of like the subcategories. And each of those has a little bullet for like, you know, to read it and go, do I identify with this? 'Cause I also found out that there are a lot of people who struggle to identify what they're feeling. I've been in therapy for a long time, so I've gotten good at this. But it's easy to forget that like, especially people who were not societally conditioned to be in touch with their feelings or to maybe not be able to recognize it. But to read things and say like, I have unrealistically high expectations of myself. I'm wasting time obsessively tinkering afraid of criticism, mistakes or mediocrity. And I don't want to start unless I could do it 100% right. So I'm gonna read that and go, ooh, that is, that is me. And then they can flip to the perfectionistic section and find specifically exercises that were developed to address that actual roadblock. And the way that I described this in my talk the long and short of it is if you, if I gave someone, you saw like three metal circles and I said, can I do a hammer and said, you know, get these into the wall and you nailed the first one and it went and just fine. You hit the second one and it didn't move and they hit the third one and it didn't move. And it's like, I know I can do this. I did this before. Other people are doing a fire, what's the matter with me? If you don't take the time to zoom in and see that there's, you know, an X or a plus sign on the top of one and a little minus sign on the other and realize, oh, these aren't nails. These are screws and screws have a completely different type of resistance and therefore have a completely different tool that is needed to deal with them. And when we are only handed to do lists and planners, which act as a hammer, which are a place to write things down to not forget what you need to do, but they do not help you do those things. And what people actually need, you know, screwdriver wise, is something to help get the list from, I wrote it down to, I actually did it. And so that's sort of the gap that I'm trying to bridge here. - Wow, that's amazing. And how long did it take you to put it all together? Because it's a very thought-out bit book. - Thank you. - It's covered in me thing. - The, the, the, the, actually, and I think that this is the part that people might not, I would say they recognize that they're like, I love this book, I love the way it's set up, I love the exercises. There, this book took while over 2000 hours for me to develop. Like, and it was me, it was writing, editing, designing, illustrating, concepting. And the way that I sort of did it was, I did, I wrote down some interviews questions and I was like interviewing myself and then interviewing my husband who also has ADHD. But he has different experiences and just voice recording and then going through the notes and pulling out, you know, pieces and like making all these different cards and truly like, this started off with this, you know, all of this work and then it was condensed down into what feels true and what fits inside of what. And all of this was based on experience and not on, how's it on research? 'Cause this does not claim to be any sort of like, scientific, anything. And I think one of the reasons that people really like it is they're like, these feelings are grouped by procrastinating feeling and then like sub-lens, that those groups and those feelings inside them does not exist anywhere on the internet. That was developed by someone who was like, just sitting around thinking about how they think all day. And so I think that one of the things that people appreciate beyond just, oh, this is really pretty and we deserve my stuff. But the quality that went into it, 'cause I also self-published. I got hit up by some pretty big, some of the biggest publishing games in town. But ultimately the decision to self-publish came down to me realizing that like, I don't want a book exec with who doesn't have ADHD telling me how I need to change this. I don't want it being potentially, you know, because the other thing I will say is that this book, while it was designed for ADHD brands, is not exclusive to only ADHD brands. It does not say how to get stuck down when you don't feel like it, you know, and have ADHD. ADHD's mentioned a couple times throughout the book. But ultimately this is made for anyone who struggles with executive dysfunction. So I hear from tons of people who have depression, who have, you know, postpartum, who are going through burnout, who are, you know, just transitions jobs, who are, and one of my favorites that I've had a couple different veterans associations who have patients with traumatic brain injuries, who did not use to have executive dysfunction, who have executive dysfunction now, and were really, really feeling hopeless. And I'm like, oh, I have always had a hard time. Could you imagine if you didn't have a hard time getting stuck down and then suddenly, you know, had a hard time getting stuck down? So hearing about the different application of the amount of people who struggle with this, you know, burnt out parents and grad students and all this kind of stuff, who can come together with this emotional, like validation of like, I see you, I know this is hard. I'm not up on this like horse telling you, this is what you should do. You should get up at 5 a.m. and take a cold shower, you know. I think we've all heard the same recycled productivity advice 20 different times. You were ready for something different. Well, I'm so glad you've identified that because, you know, some people are list people, but that's not the answer. As you said, just write a list of the most important things to do. Well, that it's a little bit more complex than that. Now, where can people buy your book? So you can get it on antiplaner.com or if you are in the US, it is on Amazon. But I have not yet figured out my Amazon and other countries is like a whole different amount of logistics. So right now, Amazon is US only, but yeah, anti-dashplaner.com or my website, adhdv.com, you can, there's a little, that's where my comics are and my TikToks and I'll link to my anti-planer. - No, brilliant. And also, Danny, you have two versions of the book, Kevin, you've got the OG Original and the Clean Vision. Can you please explain for those that might not be aware, the difference between the two? - Yes, the original version, I don't know if I can cuss on this. - Absolutely, you may. - Okay, that was okay. - I did, I usually ask at the beginning of podcast, but I forgot. Yeah, so the version of the anti-planer had to get shit done when you don't feel like it. And it is not overly gratuitous cussing, but it has cussing in it. And so, but the clean version does not. It is clean language and the worst, I think the worst book in, or the worst word in it is crap. So it's like middle schooler friendly kind of language. And because even though I really enjoy cussing and it feels like real and authentic to me, there are a lot of people who are either uncomfortable with it, but I also have a, my audience is actually, I'm 33 and looking at the demographics of my audience, it's actually a 35 to 58. So my, you know, initially I was like, oh, this is gonna be really helpful for college kids. And it's like the people who are actually, you know, using this are people who are, further along in their journey, but also within doing so, you might get a crowd of people who are like, I don't need a book that's got, you know, that afforded it. You have that afforded it. So. But people cheer with their kids too. I've heard from some people who are like, this is our coffee table book. The most touching one was someone who they lost their mom. And they didn't have anything to, I guess, talk about that wasn't so heavy that it was too hard to get into or so unimportant that it felt really like fake and surface level. And this book, they're like helped to really provide a bridge to be able to have something to talk about and work through. And I was like, crying about it. But some of the stories people send in are really, really touching my heart a lot. - Absolutely. The other thing too is that you were saying the anti-planar isn't necessarily just for ADHD. It's for anyone who will appreciate-- - Accessators. - Yeah, yeah. But also too, it's not just for those without medication, either trying as a strategy. Those with medication also needs to be, need to be pointed the right direction without need to, but should they wish to take that direction? It's a bit fail for them. So good on you. I think that's amazing. - I want to think about, well, I want to say I think about medication as running shoes. Where if you're running the same race, you're expected to run the same race as everybody else. And they're like, why? It's not that hard. And it's like, well, you have shoes. And I don't have shoes. This sucks way more for me. But in order, if medication are shoes, are shoes that work part of the time. But you still have to get yourself out the door. You still have to get yourself to the starting line. You still have to decide that you're going to do it. And so I, meds are definitely helpful and they make things less painful for me. But ultimately, I could take them and play candy across my phone for six hours. So what you focus on, having some guard rails, having some walls for your toboggan is helpful. One of the things that I hear from people relating to like my comics and my TikToks and the anti-planar who don't have ADHD, but they know someone who does. Their kid does or their spouse does or their co-worker does. And I hear from them how much my content has helped them to understand people and to forgive a lot of people. Because there was, it is so hard to understand what it's like to be someone else. When you're experienced, especially for things that are perception based or are internal motivation based, it could be so easy to judge. And I think so many of us with ADHD have felt so judged our entire life. And so to have a tool to be able to share with someone to make them realize, oh, you're not just making excuses. Someone made an entire line of comics about your entire personality. To be able to have a tool like that. I hear from people without ADHD who are really grateful, but who say things about how they feel a bit guilty that they, we're blaming their kid this whole time. And we're saying things that were hurtful. And they understand now how damaging that must have been. And I said, how old your kid? And they said, 14. And as a look, there's the time to start understanding and coming at this with a more empathetic angle and asking what you might be able to help with instead of jumping to assumptions or blaming. 14 is young, especially by comparison with how late people are often getting diagnosed now. And so making that change as soon as you recognize that I understand you, right? And the impact that I can have, the same with when I go into these companies and talk with them about ADHD in the workplace. And there are people who understand their co-workers, who have come up to me and said, I don't know for sure that they've got ADHD. I don't need to know for sure that they've got ADHD, but all of this sounds like them. And I've been so angry with them for so long, but it all matches up. And I didn't realize how-- So it's been really interesting because I thought that for a long time that it was not just aimed at people with ADHD, but there are also ways to provide information and context to people who don't have it. Because I think that that is what, like you said earlier, makes a difference. Bosses who understand are going to have a way a lasting impact on the daily life of people with ADHD. So it's not only important that people with ADHD understand themselves. Others making an effort to understand us is equally important. I have had my comics have been translated into like 16 different languages. I've seen little pop up. There's a series that they did. I think there's 15 or 16 comics in like Arabic. And if you think that-- when I talk to people about-- you think ADHD has stigma in the United States, try some of these other countries where people don't even think that it's real. And so being able to recognize that these go beyond language because a bar chart is a bar chart is a bar chart. And so I think that it's been really fun to see on a universal level how many people this affects beyond just people in my country. It's been-- So I have the coolest job. I never thought I was going to be doing this. My mom, we had a conversation about the third grade, fifth grade teacher thing. And she was like, I'm so sorry that I didn't get you help. I'm like, everything worked out fine for me. I would re-up. I would do everything the exact same. This has been great. But I feel like without that struggle, I would have not had as much context for these emotions. So the fact that I didn't-- again, even though me is a freshman in college, I also feel like I got caught relatively early. But I have pretty severe symptoms. And I have combined type. I know that there's a whole separate thing about women with an attentive type who are quiet. And they don't-- they're not as obvious versus I'm very big and loud and a bit more easier spot. What's the next project for you? What do you have in store? Or are you all are you basking in the glory of this wonderful book? And breathing. So there is currently a digital bundle of 30 PDFs. Because people are like, what are you going to do? The digital version? And I'm like, I, because there's so much custom art in this book, I can't put it in a Kindle thing. It won't format correctly. In order to accommodate different text sizes, it just breaks everything. And if you type in anti-planar, one of the first things that pops up is anti-planar free PDF. So I'm like, I'm just-- I am trying to keep in mind that also the experience that I want for people. So there's kind of two separations here where I'm excited to eventually be working towards making an app version so that people don't have to carry on their anti-planar to be able to use the exercises. But that's a bit off. Currently, what I'm planning on doing is creating and developing content around these different sections. So I've got blog posts and social posts and challenges and free PDFs that will do with-- and we'll kind of walk through the different sections. So I've got like a perfectionistic article. And there'll be like a whole-- maybe it's perfectionism month or whatever it is, where there will be a whole amount of additional supplemental content that will be available on my website to Peru's for no challenge. That is going to keep you absolutely busy. Yeah. But I'm excited to be doing that because right now, so my company's called the Anti-Boring Project. And currently, the last few months have been a bunch of business, business, business. I got a set up of project management system. How are we doing? Invoicing and figuring out the business elements, which is not as fun as designing and illustrating things. So I'm really excited to get back to being creative. That is amazing. Well, well done. Well, Dennis, it's been an honor to chat with you. And you're doing some amazing work. And I wish you all the very, very best for years and projects to come. Thank you so much. I'm excited for what the future holds. [MUSIC PLAYING]