S1E1: Jack Sullivan, TD, Grange Thistle

Hello, I'm Jack Sullivan, the Technical Director at Grange Thistle FC, and I am Technically Speaking. Welcome to Technically Speaking, a podcast series that will go inside Academy Football in Queensland. I'll talk to a range of technical staff across the pyramid to explore people, programmes and perspectives on the game at this level. This is a podcast for coaches, administrators, players and parents, and we hope it gives you some insight into Academy programmes beyond what you see on the pitch. An exciting weekend for you and your programme over the Football Gala Award, the Advanced Club of the Year at Grange Thistle, what's the significance of an award like that for you guys? Yeah, look, an award like that for us is an important recognition, not just of, I guess, the Academy programme per se, but of the direction the club is going in as a whole. We've put a lot of work in over the last two years to sort of progress our development programme to progress the club as a whole. So to get that award on Saturday night, sort of really recognises the work of the people behind the scenes who do a lot to better the club. And yeah, it puts us in a really good spot going into next year as part of our five-year plan. It's fantastic recognition of that side of the club. Well done, and obviously silver rated and league three again next year gives you a good platform to build into, so we'll get a sense today as we chat around some of the things that makes you as a TD tick, some of the things that help make your programme at Grange Thistle what it is and look forward to learning more as we go along. I started my football down in New South Wales down the environment, rural as a player, moved into coaching at around 16, just of junior sides in my local club. Before moving up to Brisbane for uni and went into coaching junior teams at UQ and moved from there into the women's side in both a head coach in the senior space as well as some technical roles. So I was at UQ in the first team head coach women's role for about three years and sort of went at the end of that three years, it was time for a new challenge for me. A Grange reached out about the technical director role and that was something that was quite fresh to me, quite new and was a challenge. So I stepped in that and been in, this is my second year this year, I'm moving into third year, I next year at Grange in sort of as the technical director, sort of that's my pathway through, I guess, starting with juniors at the local level, sort of through into the senior football and now that I'm moving back into the youth development space. Fantastic and how much one's taking the job on board, was it like you imagined it would be? Yeah, I knew the picture coming in, I talked to the president at the club and it made a really strong vision for what they wanted out of the youth development system and I looked at it and went well we're definitely not there at the moment but I can see where we can go and that was for me the mission of the last two, three years and we're still ongoing but yeah, they'll very upfront and honest with me at the start when I came in and yeah mainly talk through the vision which aligned to what I wanted to do as well there, so yeah that's where we sort of got to with that. Excellent and so your title is technical director but what is the role actually in tail? Well, for the last two years it's entailed coaching a team as well, next year I'm stepping away from that so I can focus a bit more on the technical role but look it's it's a lot of hats at times and obviously there's a huge administrative component to it so the actual program itself but also your admin on you know various stakeholders, a is other staff members, board members, all of that sort of stuff as well as the coach education side, the player development side actually being on the grass even to doing the media at some stages, it's sort of a jack-of-all-trades at times so I guess I go into the role, over-minded to work on the big picture as a whole and find different ways to do that but yeah, a lot of different tasks under that technical director umbrella. Yeah and I'm sure a lot of things that most people from players, the parents, the coaches wouldn't even know sitting to your world of operation. Without that in mind, let's say in season, what does a typical week look like? So in season it will be, on a Monday we'll have, I'll get the technical staff in usually what we did last season we'll continue to next season so that's consistent of myself, our leads across the areas so you've directed junior director girls as well as our analytics team and our high performance, then we catch up on the Monday, go through sort of the past week where we're out in our cycles, what might need tweaking, what are some of the immediate tasks for the week, such as our video needs for teams and individual development, whether we've got IDP staff, we've got to be working with individual teams, if there's any fires that have to be put out across the week, if there's a team who's had a really rough performance on the weekend, we want to be able to give them support and that's sort of how we start off our week to set it all up and then across that in the daytime we'll be in office doing a lot of our administrative tasks so setting up our working with our cycle for the next set so we'll play that two or three cycles in advance and just keep tweaking stuff as we see things that come up as well as looking at some of our administrative stuff so obviously working with players, parents, working with the board on their sort of stuff and then developing our longer term goals or our programming stuff. That's sort of in the daytime and then in the afternoon the area leads are always on ground with the teams supporting the coaches there so either in an assistant role or in a support observation role as well as myself so I'll rotate between sort of our three key areas of junior youth and girls and then on the weekend we'll be across those sort of three separate streams of game day there and I'll be across one or two of those on a weekend just observing supporting and working our development goals with the coaches and players on ground so that's sort of the mix of how we balance that but a key thing for us in a week is working as a team to to get across as many areas as we can. It's a fairly big operation and if it's just me trying to run around do it all we don't get as much impact as we'd like. Absolutely and you know one of my follow-up questions is going to be around your structure and around your key people but you've kind of elaborated a bit on that already so you know it's a pretty high human connection relational role to have and bringing it all together and serving the needs of lots of those different so how do you go to balance the needs of those different stakeholders then? Oh look it it's always tough there's obviously different areas that club have various different needs as well like part of my role would like focus on the economy today but part of my role is supporting the senior football as well there so that stakeholder as well as your board your parents all the stuff we've touched on previously for for me it's about digging down into what their motivations are in each what they want to get out of said program said interaction and find those commonalities between where we're at where we've got stuff planned and what can we align to their goals and their personal wants and needs to have that alignment and buy and sort of show people that we are nine times out of ten working towards the same goals from different angles so the human connection thing is a lot about actually seeing what what makes people tick because everyone in football is not always privileged at the full-time role there there are the volunteers or doing it in their spare time so there's clearly a passion and you know I love for the sport and the role that they're in so there's definitely something driving them and we can connect to that and find that alignment so that that's the key thing even from a board perspective they've got reasons behind why they are in the roles are in and they'll have things they want out of it so that's crucial finding what makes them tick lining that up to what we've got running and pushing that forward together so I guess what makes you tick is important what's your favorite part of the job for me like coming from a senior role my initial love for that was building teams now I'm in a technical role it's about seeing the growth of the people within the program whether that be coaches as well as players and staff members who are able to progress develop and reach their goals through the work that I'm doing I guess so it's a big passion for me is seeing other people succeed is the big driver in football it's a guess a guide for for people to achieve their personal goals and that's the passion for me is how can we set up a system which allows that across multi facets from the players to the coaches to the staff to everyone in that cannot be of benefit to them that's why I pass it is trying to create a program that does that and is the best for the people within is is the passion as a technical director excellent and obviously that comes to life and how you interact with those many different people how does your program define success for for us success is a lot about progression from A to B so taking the groups that we're working with and battering them in in some description we don't necessarily have a have a set target of has to perform to X or has to be progressing them into a higher league. Our goal is to develop players and coaches and staff who are constantly progressing, who are achieving their goals, so we measure success via how far someone has come across the season. Whether it be a group, whether it be an individual, whether it be a coach through their development plans, and we'll measure that progress in many different ways, but success is progress. We understand that everyone starts at a different point. We may have teams who start at the majorities their first year in the academy program, and they'll struggle results while they're pitched. Versus another team and exactly the same program, who have been in the academy in high level for the last five, six years, so one team may go win a league and one team might win their last five games. That progress is measured at the same length for us. That is equal success in our opinion. We measure that in different ways, mainly from starting point to end point, rather than purely or matter result. How do you balance that with winning and knowing that that's a very public outward facing component that is hard for a young person to look away from or from a parent? How do you get that message that progress and success when so many people want to look at the scoreboard or the ladder? Yeah, it's twofold. The first one is in our particularly from like 13th and up. We play a competition sport. There are ladders, there are results. That is going to be a factor. We can't ignore that completely and go, well, we'll play non-competitive from 13th to 18th, especially when we're trying to transition people into FKPL football and that's a requirement of a competitive mindset. I guess that's one facet of it, and the way we address that is dealing with it as a competitive mindset over a result mindset. It comes down to being competitive in oneself and in your individual battles and in your moments, will then get you the material success of your wins and your ladder position and all that sort of stuff there. It's selling the concept of the small wins equal the big wins. You can't just jump straight to the big wins. That's very short term and may not get the benefit out of that long term. The second one is especially from the parent side and the player side over the last two years is us delivering that education on the why we do things and why we are doing the things the way we're doing them and why the focus is on the progress over the results and the benefits of that. A big part of my role coming in for the first year was trying to develop that progress first and development first mindset in our academy program and part of that by looking at other markers of success as well as your own field results. Part of that, as you've mentioned, we've seen this year with our audit schools going up, our awards from football Queensland, we're starting to see the dividends for the work that was done in first year. Now it's not necessarily we've got five teams in a grand final. That's not our aim. Our aim is to run a strong program. That's what we've talked to the parents and players about and also said trust us that we will prove this over the next thing and we're starting to see that come together now. So it's very much buying for those longer term results over the shorter term. We're going to win a league under 14 for example. Again, important and we want to win every time we step out of the field. It's part of the DNA you have to have in a competitive and we don't shy away from that. We want our players to go out they're wanting to win but not at the expense of our development or progress. Yeah, that's fair and I suppose coach buy-in is super important there and when it comes to recruiting and retaining and evaluating coaches, potential and in-house already subscribing to that culture and that ideal development target is pretty important. What else plays into your decision making when it comes to getting the right coaches, the right people involved? I think like the key thing is first and foremost, the cultural fit. Are they the right person for the role from a own personal ethos perspective? We very much want people who have a learning mindset who are looking to develop alongside their teams and alongside the players in the youth development pathway rather than people who are necessarily considered themselves a finished product. That's the key thing where you can have all the qualifications under it. If the mindset's not aligned and the core ethos of who they are, it's not aligned then we'll struggle to work within the program. Obviously, underneath that, there are things such as the experience and the qualifications. It is an important part of approaching we work in and ever more academic field. Each year there's more and more that goes into the how and as a TD, it's something I'm sort of very into but I understand that that's not necessarily why people coach that I do it for the academic side of it but it's something we have to be aware of as far as our qualifications goes, they are an important part in working under a structure and within a certain system and being able to coach youth development. So that's something that comes into account as well as the previous experience underneath that but I guess in that order is key for us but it's all underpinned by the person. Are they do they want to learn? Can we develop them the same way we can develop players? Yeah, so how do you personally engage with coaches given you've just referenced the importance of coach development? Similar to how we engage with the various stakeholders at the club, it's about having a system that both aligns from a youth development perspective and the club outcomes but allows them to develop as well. Coaches, I feel at the end of the day want to be able to coach and have their freedom and try things so it's important for us to have a program that allows coaches to be creative. For me, if it's too prescriptive or we're providing the exactly you do this, this, this, and this each week, the coaches then become, they put the cones out and they read off the piece of paper. We very much, as much as we want to develop players, we want to develop coaches so allowing them to be creative in within the structure and it's important to have the structure and the framework first and foremost so we don't have wildly different goals and we're not on the same page but allowing them to develop, allowing them a environment where they can grow as a coach is a real part of connecting to them and taking their ideas and seeing where it aligns within our philosophies and programs. It's part of making sure we get the right people and we're not starting on two entirely different players, getting them to come at it from a their point of view and they're driving it rather than us telling or prescribing something. It's a big part of what we're doing is having the coaches have ownership over the program as well as the club there. So in terms of their time and the grass, you get a chance to observe them in action and have reflective feedback conversations with them as well. Yeah, so we've got a mix of for our coach development, we've got a mix of formal and informal feedback delivered by myself, usually an area lead and then we'll have a mentor, we'll work with them in some capacity. So yeah, we're part of our six week structure is we've broken it up into our first week is a feedback from the previous block of the formal week. There, so we deliver feedback to the coaches on our on our analysis of that last block, what's worked well for them and what some areas they potentially want to focus on for the next block and from their coach development and their squad development perspective, we'll then go into a two week observation block where we will, our primary goal of the technical team will be to observe, to watch the coaches in their environment sort of minimal disruption. We will still have interactions, still have conversations but the the aim is to try to collect as much information as we can about their environments and what they're doing. Our fourth and fifth week of the block is our implementation, we'll take the findings from those first two weeks and if there's any of the sort of short term pictures, whether that be a squad coach needs more support, they might need examples of stuff being run, for example, where we're observed or they might need that informal feedback, someone to sort of give them a talk after the drill, they've run and give them some immediate feedback depending on how they best take on information and we'll have those informal moments across that two weeks, so with less observation and more implementation getting into sessions, getting in with coach and working with them directly on ground in their environments, then week six is our formal assessment week where our technical team will actually go and compile the formal feedback for the start of the next block to make sure that there is. is there is some sort of touch point each block so they can measure their progress and measure their success in a real analytical or real consistent way rather than just the informal so that's how we sort of deliver our coach education week to week on ground. Okay and so a lot of it is about meeting them where they are and treating them like you would any learner in an environment to be able to support them, encourage them, develop them and give them the opportunities to grow from there. A player development obviously that's the reason programs exist largely is to make an impact on the development of our young players. What does it look like at Grange this or player development? For us player development from a footballing perspective we work on a four corners model so we're looking to develop players and we break it down into not quite the same as the FA standard but we break it down into technical, tactical, physical and psychological or our four key pillars of development so we look to impact all four of those. In our play development our session structures are set up to enhance those at different stages so we've got our session structure goes into we start activation what we call individual specific decision specific and the game specific as part of the development and they work on sort of each area is in different aspects. Our activation works on it's a lot of our free play stuff we very minimal coaching actually happen that we set up well there'll be a small side again whether it be a ball mastery thing it's all about players getting to be in the environment and and make decisions and do all of that sort of stuff right at the start of session. Individual specific is all about working on the individual and throughout our play development happens. It's the individual aspects of of their game whether that be know where to in a session working on build up that might be working on how the players taking the first touch how they're how they're playing that ball whatever the individual element that will work into the rest of the topic decision making that allows the individual to apply that in a decision making context as a unit there there's external factors they've got to consider how do they execute with all these other factors in place and that's our decision making and then we have our game specifically linking it to actually what they've got to apply it to on the weekend. Alongside that we have our individual development plans and our holistic development model where we we're touching every six to twelve we're trying to get touch points with the players on their IDPs their own personal goals what they're trying to work on as well as our support from our HBU team if that's a physical element our analytics team if that's something game based that they want to work on as well as in our sessions so going into next year we're implementing something in our third night a week session where we'll have our free play modes for a large majority of the Monday and then we'll actually work be working with individual units for their IDP goals so we'll have our area lead will be running for example they may take our forwards from our sort of 13s 14s 15 age groups and work with them on a specific element on a finishing drill where they can start to build in some of their own goals whether be the technical whether that be the timing of the runs whether that be finishing within the team environment so I guess it's twofold how we work on it well threefold sorry how we work on it in our team sessions what we look up from their individual development plans under the pillars as well as how we facilitate individual specific sessions within our environment for their development there okay great and so that would obviously mean an element of self-directed self-identified learning targets and growth targets as well as guided ones that your staff and coaches will be able to work together to establish yeah 100% so our to dig into our IDP process a little bit it starts with the play goal setting so what they're and it comes back to the ethos of we want players and coaches and parents and all the stakeholders I'd be working towards something that makes them tick so part of our base level is finding out those goals they're what they personally want to achieve out of the program we then align that to our coach and technical feedback what was what were observed what we are we're seen from a program perspective we under those four pillars and and from our observations line that up to their goals and come up with our our action plan of basically comes down to we look at those four pillars and what can be what areas that are strengths that we can work on with them aligned into their personal goals and what are areas that we've identified or they've identified for improvement and how we can support that and what the action plan is whether it be stuff at home whether it be stuff in sessions it's different for every player there's not there's not a model where we we prescribe X-Wiles Z we very much look at it and play it a player model there so so with our IDP process it's very much almost our 50/50 mix between player driven and coach lead them because at the end of the day players will be need to be they will get the most results out of something which they've let align to their personal goals but they're also in the team environment as well so if it's entirely removed from the coaches feedback and that sort of stuff in gains I won't get the opportunity to do that because that's different from what is being seen in the feedback they're getting a week in week out from their coaches and support staff there yeah great what would you say is the most significant contributor to player development it's it's a big one I do think it does slightly vary on the individual but before overall I think what effects player development or what mostly contributes to that for me is the environment that they're in I think that's the key thing and that's not just in our economy programs we've got control over realistically maybe 10 hours a week of their lives there there it's so many other factors a lot of our kids in the academy space are in school for as well so they may be having different messaging coming in that thing they've got peers at other clubs or in other teams all that goes into their play development so the environment is for me key and when we've got them is creating an environment that they can then bring into their other aspects of their life as well as to touch on another really important element in play development is actually the player themselves we can put around all the environment the best coaches the best facilities all that sort of stuff around a player the player doesn't have a learning mindset or doesn't want to progress we what we won't see the play development but from our controllables element for me it's if the environment the learning environment we create there then been safe in the knowledge that they can make mistakes on that journey and and take those elements into their wider environments which will then have the most effect again at home we get such we get such a small amount of player contact time that we need to make sure that the impact doesn't just stay in that 10 hours it goes out into the rest of their their interactions in their life yeah that's good and the word you use controllables I think is keys and like you said you've got limited face time with them there are only so many things you can control and having your culture and your environment set up to make the most of those that's what i'm hearing from you there so that's great um you mentioned before one of the aspirations is developing players to transition through into the senior program and FQPL Grange you know how to can your program support and foster that pathway so that was one of the key markers when i came into the job um was part of the youth development for us was also helping our seniors side remain sustainable uh the CDA game is growing in finances and the men's and women's were seeing more and more paid players in the leagues we've seen bigger club starting to become serious players there for us is a club our ability to be competitive at the top level comes down to our youth development program and making sure that we have a steady pipeline of players um going into our men's and women's squads long term who are at a level to compete at the highest level we can possibly can be um and that will underpin those squads as an ethos um in our senior space so it's a real crucial element of what we do uh it's twofold in the economy space one is opportunity um We work with the senior coaching staff very regularly in the men's and women's to identify players and give them opportunity in the 23 space, specifically, so it planes a wee in our 18s this year. I think ended up having 11 of our 17 squad roster get minutes at FKPO level. I believe between five and six of them had six plus games at 23s level this year with about three of those being starters. So we had significant minutes, so opportunities the first thing, we need to give them the opportunity to go into those spaces and experience that environment as well as looking at in our 16s and 18s specifically 17s in the goal space, looking at some of the aspects of the senior environments at the club and how we can bring that into those 16s and 18s squads from a cultural perspective, from having the coaches working with the senior coaches to find what they're looking at in players, what a contributing in those leagues, how we can best set up our players to have the toolkit to be effective at that level. Sometimes that might be the physical aspect, for example, like we can be in FKPO 2 in the men's and that at time can be a physical league, it's quick, it's physical, it's not the same necessarily as an academy game which has a more focus on development and we've got to prepare them for that, we've got to give them opportunities to come up against physical side, that may be in training, that may be where putting players into a 23s, it may be pleasing not quite ready physically into a 23s environment, a training, to have them pushed around a bit, to realise what's required and make those proactive steps, because we try to do that when they enter 23s, we're behind the April, so 16s and 18s are sort of where we target that, but it's a lot about collaboration working together, finding those key elements we can migrate across and providing opportunity in our men's and women's senior setups and having them open to that which is both in credit to the teams that both the men's and women's have been incredibly open to that ethos and to allowing youth players and relying on youth players to step up, it's something that is a long term huge, huge trial club in the senior space. Yeah, I guess there's no better affirmation for a message of progress as seeing the players progress their way through into senior football and there's no better way to encourage people to see that that is the legitimate vision of a program to have that happen and celebrate if there's a happens as well, so yeah, that's awesome. You've spoken a bit about some of the different departments within your program, you've spoken about analytics and sports science and performance. The game has changed a lot globally when it comes to those inputs and we're seeing that increasingly in the academy of space, so what role does film analysis and sports science play in your program? So it's growing, it's growing, it's something we introduced two years ago. We've got a head of analytics on staff who's worked with us for the last two years. We also work with the University of Queensland and previously we've had a student from Victoria University, I believe, placement on placement with us. There to support our analytics and video side as well as some other aspects as well. So we've got a slight tangent, we've got a, we work with the sports psychology department at UQ, so we make sure we get sports psychologists into the program every year, which has been a huge benefit for us, but our analytics and video has grown in importance over the year and it's too far apart of that is to help players in their development where, where a lot of our young people are at in this day and age is media technology is a massive part of their life. They're growing up with screens from a very, very early age, so being able to connect what they're doing on the grass to, to how they interact with a lot of things in life is becoming more and more important and I believe we will see that become more important as we move forward. So finding ways to look at their performances, for example, going through IDP goals, working start with them has been a big part of what we do. We've got players who want to, we had a player in our 18s this year, who is one of the goals they set was to be more effective in their aerial joules, I sent about. So our analytics team actually took that and mapped his success rate in aerial joules across the first six months, what factors may have affected that, what elements he could, where on the pitch he was, for example, all those factors presented that to him in his IDP, working with, hey, these are actually some of the key findings with finding in games. How can we, here's what is affecting, now you know that, so going into a game you're able to decision making, if I'm going up for this ball, it's because of this, this and this factor, which I know about. If these factors are leading to me being unsuccessful, maybe my decision making changes that, obviously that's a very time consuming process, it's not something I claim to do with every player in the program. It's very much a case by case basis and it's something we are growing, the more students we're able to get into support that and support our main analyst helps us distribute that, so that's one key thing is communicating with players who think that way, and thinking stats and in videos and that sort of stuff to help develop them. The second one is team performance as well, the example I can give on that is we had a 16s team, had Lions in a semi-final, a team who at top of the table absolutely smacked them in the first, and the time we played them at home I think 7-0 loss, so we were coming up against them in the semi-finals now, but they were the only team left in our finals thing, so our analytics team had a lot of free times on their hands, and did a lot of work with the players and coaches on the tactical and technical elements of what contributed to the loss. For example, the defensive shape, our decision making, then the players managed to take that long working with the sports psychologists and turn that semi-final into a positive on field result for them, so that went in the semi-final 3-1. So that was a real material impact. When the analytics team were freed up to focus on one team and deliver the team stuff, we were able to get our team results out of that. In turn, that allows the players within that unit to hit their individual development goals because they've had all that team support, and they're not having to think about that stuff as heavily, because it's been done for them, so that's only a bit of a snapshot of two ways our analytics team and our video team support, our program as a whole in the academy space. Yeah, and so I guess there's a bit of evidence of the potential value of it. You've alluded to the human and time constraints that make it challenging for your staffing perspective, but also the individuals. We know that our teenagers, particularly their attention spanners, is low. We don't see a lot of them watching full games even of the teams they follow professionally, so be able to use the analytics software and the clips, et cetera, to give them targeted opportunities to engage, and if they're more willing, then you're more willing to give it back to them as well, so that's a great credit there. I'm curious about data, obviously there's a lot of data points that we compile in programs for the audit, and there's a lot of data we collect because we have to collect the data. How do you manage all the data we have to collect and make it be impactful beyond the collection process? Look, to be upfront with difficulty over the last couple of years, it's a problem where we're continuing to chip at, and we've definitely gotten better at it as we go part of that, we've just partnered with XPS, who will be using them that platform to primarily house and distribute a lot of our data points. That's still very new. That's only a couple of months ago, so that's not something we've had in the program previously. A lot of that's true, but a lot of what we've done historically is through our team management platforms where you spawn, I know there's a lot of various other ones there, so there's man hours required, so the VO analytics suite, having players access to that, for a video site as well as our wellness and RPE data and all that sort of stuff has been done, just simply through your basic form, stuff, the Google forms, your Microsoft forms, that sort of stuff, and then we look to compile that in a main base SharePoint drive system. Next year, we are looking to progress that over to XPS, because it is something that having data across multiple different facets can be difficult and come all the time where we're scrambling, trying to pull it all into one legible piece, because we know we've got the data there. We know we've done the right things. But as a lot of legwork, making it right for the reader. So yeah, we've historically we're difficulty, we've managed it, but we've looked at some other programs and we'll see in the next 12 months if our XPS platform helps out. I know a lot of other clubs in the state use that, but it will look to how's a lot of that data. And well as we said, players on their phones all the time, data, statistics, video, to go directly to a player's phone, and parents as well with the safeguards there to have access to that, which will just allow us to communicate directly with the player through one platform rather than four or five different links on their spawned group, which is, and I'm sure I went out the only club who's had to do that. I know there's some clubs who have website portals and that sort of stuff there. So I don't I don't think there's a there's a exact answer to it, but we're looking at ways to continue to improve in that area specifically. Yeah, so I'm hearing a lot about looking for efficiencies where possible knowing that the collection and the presentation that data is a reality that we're all facing. Big picture thinking if you could make one system level change, what would it be? Oh, it's, it's a big one. Look, system level. I think, I think we're on the right path overall from from a personal perspective with the systems. I think it comes down to system wise, I'd like to see more collaboration. I think across the board. Now, do I have the answer for how we do that? No, but I think clubs working together, transparency and collaboration between all the different stakeholders. I think we'll improve the game massively and I think it's happening slowly. I think it is, but shifted a mindset away from where in competition with this person and this person and this person and where it log ahead with X, Y or Z is fostering I think system wise is finding a way to foster collaborative approach and working towards shared goals. There are different goals for you know, governing bodies to clubs, to individual academies, for example, and they're all valid goals. How can we all work together to help each person achieve that? I guess it doesn't, doesn't directly answer the question, but from an ethos perspective for me, it's, it's more as much collaboration as we can foster between every stakeholder will raise the level of the game in the state and the country long term. I think that that's the way we've got to go across the board. If we want to make major impact at the top level. Fantastic. And I think it's fair to say we don't have the answers because if we did, someone would be putting them into action but admirable and I guess part of the purpose of this podcast is to get inside and share and collaborate as much as possible. And I hope it opens a dialogue where people feel more comfortable sharing what they're doing and not guarding it as state secrets while still being in a competitive environment. So I appreciate you thinking out loud for us. I'm going to give you a hypothetical scenario. Let's see how we go with this one. A significant bucket of funding has ended up on your lap to improve your program. What would you use it for? For me, people, it's a big, it's always been the big focus with our current funding. We put a huge percentage of that into people. So our technical staff, our coaches, our support staff, it'd be bringing people into capacities where they can do their job better because they have the time to do so. It's, it underpins the model, our whole ethos of the round people, making people better, progressing people. We see the staff in element as a possibility to that. If we had the opportunity to bring on more people full time to give more support, that would in turn make the program better. It would give them the opportunity to do more to have more impact. So the big one for me would be, yeah, people in the Academy program, from a club perspective long term, infrastructure is a big one as well. I think that's probably funding slightly separate in there and different ways we fund that is a whole podcast in itself. But it, yeah, on the Academy level and the technical level as people, I think on a club level, it's, it's still people, there's still a lot of roles you've got to fill their administrative roles, your day to day, the more people we can bring into support that the better product and program we can provide to our members. I believe in that. I think that's across the board for any club. And then, yeah, infrastructure. And I know at board level for us, infrastructure is a huge priority. Building stuff, not just necessarily for players, but for the community as well. I'm making it somewhere where people want to be and giving the opportunities for players at all levels to be involved in the sport is a big part of that. But yeah, from my perspective, 100% would be spending it on people bringing more full time people on bringing bigger teams in of coaches, of stuff, just giving more support to players on the ground through manpower, yeah. And that sounds like we'd have the biggest impact on the core people in our organization in terms of the play body as well. So, the last thing we want to do is continue to raise the standards we're seeking whilst raising the costs for our participants as well. So, the three part here, what do you want your players to be able to say at the end of the season? So, for the players side of things, I want them to be able to say that they've gotten better, that they've progressed. And that they've genuinely enjoyed their time in the program over the year, whether they continue that, whether they go somewhere else. I want players to be coming out of our grand academy. Knowing they've got better, and that's not necessarily an go-a-be in an FQPL program, that's if they're going to Metro space, that's if they drop the sport completely and going to life. We've had a positive impact over that season. So, I want players to come out of the program going, yes, we've gotten better, and it's had a positive impact on me as a person. Right, and what would you like the parents to be able to say at the end of the season? So, the parents, I'd like them to be saying that they see the development of their kids and their team, that they've seen the progress that's being made outside of the results. It's something that we've seen as we've had teams that have been finished in the bottom couple in a ladder. The parents are over the moon at the end of the season, because the players love it. They're getting these marks. They've improved over the course we've seen that won their last three games, because they've made that progress. And so, when I talk to parents, the conversation that I'm most happy about and the one I'm blowing like hearing is when the parents are saying, well, we really saw how far this team and how these players have come over the year is what I want to hear out of the parent group ideally. We've done our job right. Excellent, absolutely. And at the end of the season for your coaches, what do you want them to be able to say? I want the coaches to come out of the season, energised, excited about the next season, excited about the development of their players, whether it be with the different coach, whether it be outside of the coach. It's a personal passion of mine, because I feel in football, it is so easy to burn people out. We are at a constant balance of trying to have the highest standards we possibly can in our environment, as well as looking after the people that are required to make those standards happen. So, our measure of success for me out of coaches is having them energised at the end of the season. We definitely won't have that across a whole cohort. It's a very draining season, a lot of emotional effort, time, effort has been put in. So, we want them to be just as passionate as an excited about youth development and coaching as they were when they came in at the start of the season. I don't want to see someone come in losing that because I just see it too often when people work themselves too hard and they don't prioritise themselves first and foremost, and you lose them from football. It's not what we want to do. for me and a season, I want our coaches to be energized to be excited about what the potential of the next year can be. And are you feeling energized, Jack? Well, I've got a holiday book to Europe in a week's time, so I'm sure I feel energized after that. It's a balance. It's important for me as well, as I said, I can't preach that to our coaches and our staff members and not sort of live that myself, being able to balance work life is hugely important and tough at times. Stuff has to get done, but especially around trials, time can be really draining. Well, look, I wouldn't be here if I wasn't still energized and passionate about the project, not just yet developed, but at range itself. It's why I do it, it's not necessarily for the title or the role or anything like that. Fantastic. Seems like a pretty good way to wrap things up, Jack. Is there anything else you'd like us to know about what makes your program unique, special or any other interesting facts or things you want to share? I think, based on, and we've touched on it within some of the answers, but our, I think something that we really pride our program on is looking after its people, where we're not about necessarily the metrics or we've got to have, you know, ex amount of, you know, we need you to be a professional player. Our focus is on how we can develop the person to their wants, to their needs, to where they're at in the world. We may get, you know, a team of 16 accountants come out at the end of the day. If we can give them some transferable skills, we've done our job, in my opinion. So we pride ourselves on trying our best and I can't say we've got an 100% success rate or hit rate on developing people and doing what's best for our people, first and foremost, for our other outcomes. There is a huge focus for players, coaches, anyone who is a part of the academy program at Grange and the second thing is you mentioned it earlier, making it accessible, big pilot at the price point. We, a lot of our funding, we have from our infrastructure projects, our footballing projects. We are working all the time on finding other ways to fund our programs outside of the players. We don't want, we want to be as minimal user pay as we can possibly make it within the current restraints. So the big part of that is ensuring our academy fees and our junior budget stays in the junior space. First of all, as long term that will benefit the senior space where the players coming through, but that stays with that space. And finding ways which we can deliver on the things when it's paying the people who we're employing properly, I'm not making someone do a full-time job for part-time pay. And how we fund that is something that I think we do as a club model outside of the academy model. In my experience, we're getting around club land, I think we do it quite well. I'm as finding ways to fund that. So those are the two unique aspects, I guess, of I think of our program. They're not that other clubs aren't. I'm putting their people first, obviously, but it's a real core ethos for us, and it's something we're really proud of, and they're great. That's great. Well, I've appreciated your time technically speaking with me today. I've got a real sense of you and the values of your program, and I hope that everyone else who gets a chance to hear it themselves can take away plenty from it and reflect on what they've experienced. And hopefully this is the first of many conversations in the technically speaking space. So thanks again, Jack. No problem. Thank you for having me. That brings us to the end of our first full episode of technically speaking. Big thanks to Jack Sullivan for his time on this episode. I hope you found the conversation as insightful as I did. We'll be back soon with another technical leader for our episode two. In the meantime, follow us on your favourite podcast provider. Share it widely and help us connect with anyone who might be interested.