S17 E05: Benoît Repellin, Worldwide Head of Jewelry at Phillips

[Music] You're listening to the luxury item, the podcast on the business of luxury and the people and companies that are shaping the future of the luxury industry. Here's your host, Scott Kerr. [Music] Phillips is one of the big three global auction houses and specializes in 20th and 21st century art, design, watches and jewels. It positions itself as a more focused, contemporary leaning alternative to the other big auction houses. In 2025, it achieved about $927 million US dollars in global sales, with high sell-through rates driven by tightly curated auctions and a growing base of younger, often online international collectors. Auction houses like Phillips have been leaning harder into jewelry these days to offset softer art sales, with luxury goods reaching a decade high market share. My guest on the luxury item is Benoit Repelah, one of the most highly respected auctioneers and currently the global jewelry head at Phillips Auction House. Based in Geneva, Benoit leads the houses rapidly expanding global jewels department and its European presence. He joined Phillips in 2022, after nearly a decade at Sotheby's Geneva, and has since overseen major auctions and landmark consignants at Phillips, including the 100% sold Vanderbilt family jewels that achieved $4.3 million US dollars and record-setting sales such as the Argyle Phoenix fancy red diamond at $4.2 million US dollars. Welcome to the luxury item, Benoit. Thank you very much for having me, Scott. Yeah, thank you. I'm very excited to have you. So, you know, you were an auctioneer recently at Phillips Most, recent Jewels Auction in Hong Kong at the end of last month. Delivered solid totals, strong Asian demand particularly from mainland China and Hong Kong and standout prices for signed pieces from Cartier, Bulgarian others. A couple of the standout lots included a four-carat pink diamond ring and a 20-carat yellow diamond pendant necklace, the sale totaled $5.4 million to me. Sounds like a lot. So, in your mind, was the auction considered a success? Yes, absolutely. I mean, when we look at an auction result, we want to make sure we deliver on both hands for the consigners and cellar side and for the buyers. And there are certain statistics we look at after the auction. So, for example, one of them is the cell through rate. So, that's the percentage of items sold by value and by lot. Also, the results against the pre-cell estimates, so illustrating the performance of the cell if the lot's sold within estimates are above the highest estimates, etc. But also the cell participations with the number of bidders, the countries that were coming from, also the way of bidding because clients can participate in the auction different ways, either with an absentee bid, so they leave their maximum amount before the auction. Then they can participate in the room on the telephone or also online. And I think the cell participation also really gives indications of the creation of the cell. So, if we have a lot of interest on some of the lots, and as you mentioned, and some of the car-tip pieces, bull-grey items, sign pieces, and also some of the color diamonds, so strong participation from the clients, so that really shows that the creation of the cell met the clients and collectors' expectations. So, outside of the hard numbers, do you ever look at just a vibe of the bidders? Just the feeling from the bidders, whether something excites them about. Yeah, exactly. This is what I mentioned about the cell participation. When we see a lot as civil bidders, and we have like 10, 15, 20 registered bidders, that's also what we want to achieve during an auction, to get this competitive bidder, bidding between clients on one lot. And this is what we saw on some of the sign pieces on these color diamonds that you rightly mentioned. So, as I mentioned before, that there was strong demand in mainland China and Hong Kong. What was the overall feeling about the marketplace in general? So, usually, we have three selling locations for jewelry, like Hong Kong, New York, and Geneva. And it's quite usual for our Hong Kong cells to have a stronger participation from Asia, and our New York cells to have a stronger participation from the Americas. And then Geneva is a little bit more international with global participation. So, we have participation from all over the world, for all of our auctions, but the creation, the time difference, and the locations also influence obviously the participation from our clients. And over the past few years, there's been a very strong appetite for signed jewels, especially Cartier, Van Cleef and Arpelles, Bulgarian, and other heritage may soons. I was reading that established collectors are chasing vintage masterpieces and younger buyers are gravitating toward more wearable signed pieces from the late 60s and 70s. What's driving the demand for heritage brand pieces these days? So, indeed, signed jewelry pieces attract a lot of collectors, and during our last Hong Kong auctions in March, 100% of the signed jewels were sold, meaning all the jewels from re-known jewelry may soons found the buyers. And more than half of these jewels surpassed their pre-cell high estimates. So, that really illustrates what you say, like the strong demand for signed pieces. And I think there are like stable consideration, it's not only the signature, it's also sometimes the provenance, and if a jewelry's typical of a specific era, or also the quality of the gemstone that collectors take into account. What kind of price per carrot premium does a signature piece carry over unsigned diamonds? So, this is quite difficult to judge, because I mean, on the estimate, well, value, for example, if it's a diamond ring, we will really put the estimate based on the value of the stone. And then the signature indeed will generate a premium on the final price, but this is not really something we'll take into account in the estimate. So, it will be further end buyer to give the additional added value to the signature. Obviously, if it's a typical jewel signature piece, if it's more about the design of the piece, there is a premium in this on that occasion. So, if it's a sign article, "Carty piece", obviously it would be much more valuable than a standard article diamond bracelet. But for a stone, the value will really be focusing on the stone itself. So, in your view, what are buyers actually paying for? Is the history design language, or just the piece of mind of a big heritage house brand? Well, I guess it's a combination of several factors. And when people ask me, "How do you value a jewel? What do you look? What do you give an estimate?" A jewel, I usually say that I look at three different factors, art, nature, and provenance. So, nature being the quality of the gemstone, and if the stone is spare from any treatment, what is the origin of the gemstone, etc. that really influenced the value of the stone. Art, so the craftmanship, if it's a sign piece as well, if it's typical of the era and the period the jewel was made, and then the provenance, if there is any interesting name linked to the piece of jewelry. And I think collectors really look at these three factors also when they consider a piece at auction and when they decide if they want to go for that piece or not. So, the sign jewels with historical celebrity provenance, like royal pieces or name collections, state sales, things like that, do those trigger the most aggressive bidding at auction? And if you could cite an example where that happened? Absolutely. And I have a lot of examples of sign pieces with provenance. I mean, recently in November 2025, we had in Geneva, we offered 12 pieces from the collection of Gladys, more of Undebel, Countess Sessionine. And so she was born in 1886 in like the largest mention on Fifth Avenue. She married Countless, Lossissionine in 1908, and she was considered of one of the last dollar princesses marrying into European nobility. And as part of these 12 pieces, the top plot was what we call the Vondebel sapphire. And it was a Tiffany and Co diamond and sapphire brooch made. So in around 1905, just before her wedding, it was given by Alice Gwyn, Mrs Cornelius Vondebel to her daughter Gladys, on the occasion of her wedding with the Countless Lossissionine. And it was set with a 42.68 carat Kashmir sapphire. So a very impressive stone of royal blue collar Kashmir sapphire is also Kashmir being the most. Distrable origin for sapphires. So really the the jewel combine everything that collectors would be looking for. You have the quality of the gemstone with this important Kashmir sapphire of royal blue collar. The craftsmanship with the Tiffany and Co belly pop brooch very typical of the turn of the century, the beginning of the 20th century, and also the Vondebel's name. So for this piece, we had 22 bitters on this exceptional brooch. And it sold for 3.6 million US dollars. So more than three times the lowestimate. So I think it's very encouraging to see obviously this appetite on another, another lot of the collection was a caratier brooch that was originally part of a tiara that was also going on. given by Alice von der Behl to her daughter as part of the wedding basket in 1908. And the Tierra was actually worn by the counter-sitioning gletties von der Behl on the occasion of the coronation of Emperor Charles and on Pres Zita as King and Queen of Hungary on the 30th of December 1916. And so the Tierra was composed of eight different lily design broaches and one of the broaches appeared at auction and it sold for $560,000 US dollars so five times the loist made after also a competitive bidding between 13 clients. Millennials in Gen Z now make up a large share of new bidders. It's been reported at major houses roughly 40 to 46% of new buyers are millennial or younger. And at your house Phillips, the share of Gen Z and millennial bidders has surged by over 50% in the last five years. It seems these young bidders are less reverential about category boundaries and more comfortable treating signed jewelry as a mix of cultural objects and financial assets. I'm sure you've seen a big influx of millennial and Gen Z bidders into jewelry auctions over the past few seasons. How will you describe this new buyer compared with the traditional high jewelry client? Well, I think probably the first buy of millennials and Gen Z will be more towards like some instantly recognizable design as well. Like the number of on Clefner polls, a Cartier love bangle or just and clueless or a pump third design. But I think they're also looking at some designer names that meet the taste and aesthetic. And we have some jewels, for example, by HMLA, by Jar, by Tafen, that are very popular at auction to name a few. And I think with all the events also the red carpet events with the Oscars, the golden gloves, and when people see these celebrities wearing vintage and antique pieces, that really put the spotlight on these collectible items. And we see more and more younger collectors looking at these broaches, vintage broaches, vintage pieces that really reflect the period when they were made. And it's quite interesting to see also the interest on these series like Downton Abbey or Guilded Age that really put, I mean, they re put a big effort in having the costumes, the clothes, and the jewels that really reflect the era of the show. And I think that really is put also this spotlight of some belly pop pieces on Ardeko. And it's very interesting to see how the filmmakers really try to respect the right jewels and the right clothes for the set of the film and the movies. Also sometimes like celebrities, for example, everyone talked about Taylor Swift's engagement ring that was set with the Noel Cut Diamond. And I think that we really saw a surge of demand for all cut diamonds after also Taylor Swift's showing this engagement ring. And some contemporary designers like Jessica McComack, for example, really uses these old cut stones on the old setting and it's very, very popular for Gen Z and millennials. Are you finding these Gen Z millennials also doing their homework before they start bidding? Yeah, I think there is definitely an appetite for knowing more about the history of the jewel and knowing more about the jewelry in general. There is this kind of education side that also all the jewelry mayzons have done. When we see all these exhibitions about jewelry that are so popular. And I think it's like it's really attracts a very broad range of collectors and public. And while you're a deeply seasoned high jewelry specialist and auction executive with a rare mix of academic training, gemological credentials and market pricing, instinct, you've worked at the top auction houses, ex-sothebies. You joined Phillips in 2022 and appointed worldwide head of jewelry in 2023. When you moved up to your current role, where do you see the biggest white space for Phillips between the established jewelry players and new buyers coming into the category? I mean, I joined Phillips in February 2022 as head of Europe before being asked to take a global role. And it was a very interesting challenge for me because being based in Geneva, it was the head, the aim was to rebuild the jewelry department in Europe. So it was a great opportunity and we relaunched the jewelry auctions in Geneva in November 2023. And our Geneva Jewels Auction One in November 2023 achieved 19.5 million Swiss francs, approximately 21.6 million US dollars. And from 2022 to 2025, we increased the total sales by 87%, bringing the total from 27.7 million US dollars to 51.7 million dollars. So it's really a fast growing department. We're also being a strong global team, which is very exciting. And it was very encouraging to see also the support of previous collectors and clients joining me on this journey. And also seeing how Phillips can do things differently. I think it's very interesting to be a different player in the industry. We have a very strong identity. Phillips is very much the 20th and 21st century auction house. And I think we positioned the jewelry department with Phillips identity. We're still offering jewels from the 19th century to today, but we're trying to bring these contemporary twists to it with our marketing campaign, with our editorial shooting and also to meet clients' expectations to have a very creative auctions really focusing on every single jewelry piece we offer. It's not about really the volume and the number of sales we do, but really about the creation and making sure we meet clients' expectations. And one of the example of doing things differently, but still meeting clients demand is also in May, 2026 in May this year in Geneva will launch collections and proven on section as part of our jewels auction in Geneva. And to celebrate our 230th anniversary at Phillips, so Phillips was found in 1796. So we are very old, Maison, but with this very contemporary flair to it and this contemporary, these collections and proven on section is really to highlight jewels that have a name to it. As we mentioned earlier, clients are very much looking for pieces that bring some history to it. And this section will offer some more jewels and pieces from Gladys Von the build, Countess Sysheni, some jewels and objects from the Kings of Vovaria, and then also from important European noble families. And you're also one of the younger high profile jewelry auctioneers you're active on social media with about 100,000 followers on Instagram. You're often posting daily jewels auction behind the scenes content and sales highlights. Are you consciously using Instagram to educate the next generation of collectors or more of just a business development tool. I think it's pretty both. As I mentioned earlier, I think collectors are really looking for the education side as well. And it's not only also about the history of jewelry and like the drape background and the origin of the gemstone, but also to help the followers to be more familiar about auction. Orcsion can be a bit of a different world for someone who is not very used to it. And we can show that auctions are also approachable that our exhibitions are open to the public. And when we see the success of all these jewelry exhibitions around the world by Kathe von Kleff at the Viennä at the museum, Lamarine in France, etc. Actually exhibition like auction exhibitions are open to the public and really show also museum quality items. So I think it's also something that is interesting to show to to the audience. And I guess the followers follow obviously to be aware of the auctions to know what's happening next to have a first hint of what will be highlighted in the next auction. Also to learn about during general some people just want to see beautiful pieces every day. And I'm saying beauty I think is important for the soul. It leaves everyone spirit. But it's also as you say a business tool because it allowed me to find also some new sellers and buyers through through Instagram. I have the example for example a photo reached out for with a 8.49 carat Burmese fire that by estimated conservatively at 35 to 55,000 US dollars and it's sold for 94,500 dollars in June 2022 in New York. But also some buyers for example some beaters for the Vanderbilt jewels and objects in November 2025 came through Instagram. And actually one of my I mean my most popular post ever on Instagram is two small purses from Gladys Vanderbilt countercision. And the one of them was gold and sapphire and the other one was set with diamonds and rubies and it was seen 4.9 million times. Wow. It's a very surprised for these. Yeah, why do you think that that surprise you what do you what do you think attracted them about that post. I think it was really the interesting object. There were like very miniature purses. So tiny little, delicate 19th century objects. I think it was also quite fascinating for everyone to realize that they were used actually in the 19th century and early 20th century. Everyone was asking also what did you put in them because they're so small for what it killed, what it coins. So I think it was really about being part of the life of the 19th century and 20th century. In the GLDH period of the American and European nobility. And also the delicacy of the object that were so really fine and the setting of every stone was really exquisite. Fine jewelry seems to sit at the intersection of art, history and finance, similar to fine art, but uniquely wearable and portable and built for materials, gold, diamonds and colored stones, whose values can be tracked in global markets. When you look at bidding patterns today, how many clients are treating high jewelry as a hedge or store of value in volatile times versus buying purely for passion? So we don't always know the reason actually why clients buy it auction and the reasons can vary a lot from one client to another. It can be either an occasional purchase for an anniversary for a specific occasion. It can be also really collectors building a collection and considering jewelry as a collectible category the same way as art or like radio passion. And some people indeed see the investment side and they want to also build a collection that can increase in value. And some of them actually buy and sell. So when they feel it's the right moment to sell a jewelry piece, they will put it at auction or sell it another way and then buy another one. Because there is always an intrinsic value in the jewel of the CUBI as you mentioned, it's set with precious stones. It's made of gold and platinum, et cetera. So there is also this kind of security from some clients in buying jewels. But when people ask me how would you buy a piece of auction, I always say one needs to buy what one likes and read the best collections were built over the years with a discerning eye and passion. And I think people shouldn't really look at what they buy just on the pure investment purposes. Sophisticated collectors always say the secondary market is where you find real value and serious jewelry. So from where you sit, what do the smartest collectors do differently when they use auctions to build an asset grade collection rather than just chasing trophy pieces? Well, I think it's also what I say. It's really about like the discerning eye and the passion. I think it also meets one of the previous questions about art, provenance, and nature. So really being aware of the quality of the gemstone, looking at the craftsmanship of the pieces, also, if there is any provenance, also being patient. I think these collectors have been built over the years. And one shouldn't really look at changing the collection too quickly. But there is definitely an appreciation of the pieces over the years. So when you look back at the collectors who've quietly built great collections through Sotheby's and now with Phillips, what common patterns or habits stand out and how they research bid and decide when to walk away? Well, there is not a single way, I guess, to collect and to purchase that auction because each collector is very different. And we definitely see more and more jewelry collectors coming to auction and considering jewelry as a collectible category, as I said, the same way as one would do for art. There are obviously, history jewelry collectors, like the Royal Collection, the Kings, the Queens, the Duchess of Windsor, the Barbar Hatten, Lee Staler, Dizzy Fellowes, et cetera, to name a few. But I think the collection usually reflects the collector's taste. And some would decide to really focus on one dream as well. The same way as Cartier von Kleff would build their own connection, because most of the main dreamers don't have their own collections as well. So Cartier has the collection, von Kleff, Schoemet, et cetera. And these may, obviously, want to buy pieces that would illustrate the history of the jury house and the evolution of the jury and the history of the jury. Some collectors have this approach that they really want to focus on one name and have the best of the names. Others really want to have the evolution of jewels, so they would have jewels from even the Renaissance to today. Others would focus on a certain period. They will just want our decopies, or Bellypog, or 1960s and '70s, that obviously very much coming back to fashion. So I would say it very much depends on the collector. Jewelry is generally viewed as an intergenerational asset carrying both financial value and family stories. So how do you see errors and next-gen collectors balancing sentiment with the decision to sell at auction? It's very interesting indeed to mention the family stories because we mentioned a lot about the provenance already on the how it can impact the result at auction. But I think for every piece, even if there is not a specific name attached to it, there is a great sentimental value to jewels. And I can really see it every time I see a client coming to me just to get a valuation and maybe deciding to part within put it at auction. Quite automatically when they unpack the jewels in front of me, they will give me the history behind each and several, and every single piece, saying that was the ring for my grandmother that was given by my father to my mother for my birth, etc. So there is really this attachment to the piece itself for all the sentiment and the emotion it brings. And Jewelry is very personal. It's won obviously by the person. It's close to like worn on the skin, close to the heart for a brooch. It was given for a special occasion by a special person. So it's very interesting to see all of this. And it's also interesting for us to know all the history behind because sometimes it does have value to the piece. When the client contacted me with a name I knew from a very important French noble family, a Jew-Cole family. So before I even saw the jewels, I was like, well, with such a name, there should be Schoemet jewels because Schoemet was really the dream-aison doing all the wedding baskets to Corbe de Marillage of the high society at the beginning of the 20th century. And it's quite often where in these families where you find an interesting Schoemet piece. And the client showed me a pair of diamond earrings, beautiful pair of earrings, very typical of the article period. I asked him if he had any stories. If you knew the origin of the pieces, the stories he gave me were much more anecdotal, but quite interesting as well saying, oh, my wife was wearing the pair of earrings at the wedding. And she came home and realized that actually, oh, she lost one of the earrings, but actually the earrings dropped in the pocket of the jacket. So luckily, we still have the two earrings, but they're quite difficult to wear. And we don't really know if we were lucky now to find it this time, but we don't know if we will keep them forever. So maybe it's time to part with it. And when I looked at the pair of earrings, I recognized a partial maker's mark for Joseph Schoemet. So there was the Jay, the star, the moon, and the sea. So I asked him, I said, I think it's Schoemet, and the client didn't know at all about the history. I said, we did be possible that was part of the wedding basket of your parents, because I think it's really from the 1930s. And he told me that his parents got married in 1934. So I asked if I could do further research with Schoemet, and ask if they could find anything in their archives. And Schoemet digged into their archives, and they found indeed that the family brought an older brooch, a redeveloped brooch, set with diamonds, that they asked to dismantle it, to do these pair of earrings. And it was delivered to the family in June 1934, and his parents got married in July 1934. So it was indeed part of the wedding basket of his parents. And it's fascinating when you can also bring back the history of the jewels when it was lost actually through generations. So do they move ahead and break it off? They did move ahead. Yes, they did move ahead. We did offer it last year at auction. And the pair of earrings sold for 137,000 US dollars, 114,000 Swiss francs, more than double the highest to make thanks to also obviously older. The history behind it and the Schoemet signature. So the story behind it, which was new to them, really didn't convince them to keep it. They went ahead with the auction. Indeed, yeah. So when a historic or named jewel comes to auction, how consciously do you think about placing it into the next chapter rather than just achieving the highest price? Obviously, we act on behalf of the sellers. So we want it to achieve the highest price. We really want to make sure we give the best exposure to the piece. I think when we present it for auction, we want to put the piece back into his context to make sure people understand the history, the provenance, that it's a collectible object. But as I mentioned earlier at Philips, we also have this contemporary way. And we want to really present the jewel as an object. as art as collectible, but also jewels are meant to be worn. And some collectors do wear their jewels, some really keep them as works of art indeed. But I think jewels are meant to be worn, and this is what we're trying to do with also the art editor-ole campaign with model wearing jewels in a more contemporary way. And I think this has a great resonance with our origins and our collectors. Phillips, Sotheby's and Christie's all sell high jewelry at a serious level. Sotheby's and Christie's are still the big ships while Phillips is the fast growing specialist challenger. And you touched a little bit about this before. How do you think about the sweet spot for Phillips' jewels versus the historic dominance of Sotheby's and Christie's from price point, client profile, geography? Indeed, it's a challenging market and we have like strong competitors, but I think one of Phillips' strength is really also its size. We have only six departments. So we have modern and contemporary art, design, photographs, editions and works on paper, watches and jewels. So really focusing on twentieth and 21st century. And I think it's really one of our strengths because we get to know our clients, we get to know our colleagues as well. So we can really work with colleagues from other departments on special collections. We have also only three selling locations for jewelry, Geneva, Hong Kong and New York. And we have two live auctions a year per location and two online sales a year per location. So all together we have six live auctions and six online sales. So that allows us to have a creative approach. We want to make sure our sales are not too big either. We want to have 150 lots per sale, really focusing on every single lot and giving the best promotion to each lot. And I think this is this really resonates with our clients. We also a little bit more accessible, I guess. And some people like this approachable view of Phillips that allows us to give the best service to our clients on the cellar side and the buyer side. And next month you have two jewelry auctions. Both in Geneva, one is online and the other is live. What is the focus of those two auctions? Indeed, we have two sales on the 11th of May, which is our Geneva Jewels Auction 6. And as I mentioned earlier, these sales will introduce a new section dedicated to collections and provenance, celebrating a 230th anniversary and to really meet clients expectations about pieces with provenance and interesting names attached to it. But we also have like some very important sign pieces on some iconic design. One of them and it's a cover lot is Zip necklace by von Kleffen Apples. So the Zip design was stayed to be influenced by the Duchess of Windsor. And the first one realized by von Kleffen was in 1951. It took them decades to come up with the design that can be a proper zip but also be worn as a jewel. And this is a newer example from 2012 set with Coral, Calcydonian diamonds. It's a very interesting piece. We have also some mystery set pieces, also by von Kleffen Apples. So von Kleffen, like patterned, sorry, this technique in 1933, that's also very much linked to the brand now. And we have a pair of Ruby and Diamond earrings and Ruby and Diamond ring with this mystery setting. Also some iconic jewels from Schoenmebelle Park. One of them is Ruby and Diamond ring and there is also a negligee necklace also from a French noble family. A butchered bracelet, very typical of its design from the Italian Maison. So we really have these two say, two interesting aspects in the auction, I would say, about the sign and the iconic designs and then the collections and provenance. How far in advance do you create a theme for the auction? I mean, we have auctions regularly. So usually it's really like one, one auction is over. We're already working on the next one. But sometimes also it takes longer for clients to decide to part with their collection. So in that case, we can also build an auction around the specific collection. So we don't really know in advance, it depends on obviously what we what we find for the next auction, the clients we meet. And the collections and provenance was something that I've been thinking for for some time. And I think with the 200 and 30th anniversary Philips, it was the perfect occasion to launch this section. I knew that the Von der Beelze family were also wanted to part with a few more objects and jewels. So I thought it was a good base, obviously for this section. Then we add a Navid collector, absolutely passionate about King Ludwig II of Bavaria that contacted us and wanted to also put some of his jewels and objects at auction. So that was already a solid base with some interesting names to bring to collectors. And then it's really about what we go to business getting when we meet the clients and when we find the property, there were several noble collections from Italy and France that also came for sale. So that was a good addition to this section. Well Benoit, my final question is the luxury item question, which I ask all my guests. So if you was stranded on a deserted island and you could only have one single luxury item with you, what would that luxury item be? Can't be any form of air or water transportation to get you off that island or anything that requires mobile service or you can call someone at Phillips to come get you off that island. It's just you on this lonely island. You're all by yourself, palm trees, sand, ocean, coconuts. What would the want, but you do have one single luxury item. What would that one single luxury item be? Well, that was quite a tough question indeed to answer. And one item, I mean, as you can probably hear, I really like provenance. I am also an historian and art historian as well as a gemologist. So I like really the combination of history, artistry, the craftsmanship, and the gemstone. So I think the perfect object that will also be useful would be the sport of Napoleon, but with the region diamond set back on the hill. So the region diamond is this 140.64-kaird diamond that was discovered in 1698 and then bought by Philip Duke D'Aulion, the Regent of France in 1717. And it's part of the French crown jewels and it was set by Nito with an initial 42 diamonds for on the sword of Napoleon that was made by Jean-Bethis Claude O'Joux. So I think it's really like a beautiful object with the silversmith, the work of the gold with the beautiful region diamond. So I can really play with it and see how the sun interacts with the facets. It can probably help me also even like light up a fire if the sun reflects to some of the diamond facets. And obviously, the sword will help me hunt fish and defend myself if any enemy comes to this beautiful dessert island. But I'm curious is how are you going to keep it safe on the island? Like where where are you going to store it? Oh, I'll sleep on it. No one will be able to approach it. It's invaluable. It has like all the French history like with it with the region diamond with Napoleon's ward and like Nito, Odio, all the great names of the silversmith and Andruir. So no one will be able to touch it. Benoit, Rippelab, Worldwide, Head of Jewelry at Phillips Auction House. Thank you so much for joining me on the Luxury Item. Thank you very much for having me Scott. Just lovely to discuss with you. That's it for this episode of the Luxury Item Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this useful and entertaining, I would be really grateful if you can share it with a friend or colleague. I would love it if you subscribe so you never miss an episode. And while you're there, be sure to rate and review us on Apple podcasts. It really helps other listeners find us. The Luxury Item Podcast is a production of Silver Tone Consulting. I'm your host, Scott Kerr. Until next time. [BLANK_AUDIO]