S15 | E7: Prison, Providence, and Pastoral Ministry

Welcome back to the podcast conversations with Jeff Bucknam. Dr. Jeff Bucknam is the lead pastor at harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago land and I'm your host Tommy crates. I don't know. I'm saying things so weird right now like very very weird Do you think we should have a laugh track? Yeah wait for it. Okay. I'm just kidding. I don't know if you're expecting Lewis If you're expecting Lewis come in No one actually pays attention to what we're doing right now Because this is something called the preamble ramble or the pre ramble where we're gonna get into a conversation and it's gonna be not us You and someone else it's gonna be a substantiant, you know, it's gonna be a substance. It's gonna be great It's gonna be an awesome conversation. I actually don't know what you're talking about today But I know who you're talking to and so I know it's gonna be great but I um This is the time where we you and I talk about whatever it is that we want yeah and And so today I I've prepared something okay, so do you want to do you want to hear it or do you want to ruin it? No, no, I want you I'm hey Tommy come on That's just not kind. What do you mean? I'm just I'm saying that I'm in a ruin stuff come on. Oh no, no, no No, do you just want it? Do you want to do like we could go a different direction? No go for it great I want to ask you some would you rather's okay? Have you ever done this before? Yeah, no, I played this game. I played this okay Jeff would you rather have a personal theme song play every time you enter the room? Or a laugh track play after everything you say Wow the theme song is the answer to this question Mm-hmm And the answer to what theme song yeah, I was gonna okay is Mama said knock you out by L.O. Cool J. Wow Wow, okay, that's great. What do you mean that it's amazing? That's amazing. That's a great song Would you would you rather accidentally text your boss love you or wave back at someone who wasn't waving at you oh Love you Yeah, you would rather do that yeah, because this that's yeah, that's funny. It's not it's not I don't know. It's I don't think that that's that awkward Okay, yeah, that all right. That's fair that the waving one is a little that is super awkward. Yeah, that's really tough Would you rather wear wet socks forever or have popcorn kernels stuck in your teeth forever? Oh Wow Everyone stinks probably just both ways one literally wet socks I'm really really oh OCD with the with the stuff in my teeth really you know I am wet no I am I am not good if there's something in my teeth and I can't get it out because that's what I'm saying Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I would probably bleed to death because I'd be fighting it out. I don't know man What's what dogs wet dogs all your life just take your shoes off come on all okay? Well, I guess you could work yourself around that okay Uh Would you rather have a tiny marching band follow you around yes or Or one person narrate your life. It's the marching in the more known Freemant voice the match the marching man you would okay a tiny marching that actually would be pretty remarkable Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right. Okay. I think I would I would Be all right, but the drum line would be amazing. Yeah When you're walking would you get annoyed after a while? Oh, I'd think it'd be cool walking into room Okay, and it would lead very easily and tell cool Jay. All right. You ready for a Christian turn boom Christian turn would you rather? Have a perfect sermon delivery but weak content That's why I do every week or incredible content, but stumble through delivery Well listen, you're asking me might I do have perfect delivery and it's weak content every week So I mean the other way I've not experienced Okay, you found the button bluest Lewis has been looking for that ever since You finally found it There's a laugh track I'm going inside of our head right now. Okay No, I probably this the good content stumble through delivery mostly because I Stumble through deliver anyway, same relatable In fact, would you rather be known as deeply biblical or deeply relatable? Oh biblical yeah totally hairs whether people relate to me Okay, right. Yeah, that's the southern seminary way Would you rather answer? I'm not that I'm from southern seminary There's just a guy in the room wearing a southern seminary shirt and I who could it be made sure that someone he knew that Would you rather answer one hard theological question from a skeptic? Or one hard personal question from a hurting church member Oh the personal question probably you'd rather yeah, no, I mean neither of those are a massive issue for me But I probably the the other one yeah, would you rather Pastor a church that is growing fast but messy or stable but spiritually sleepy? Oh That's not a hard one Yeah, the first fast and messy. Yeah, because it is listen It's always messy. Yeah, there is no non messy Yeah, the slow one the slow one that says it's not messy Whatever okay, yeah, yeah, no I throw me into the yeah, yeah, same This one's gonna get a bit more serious. I kind of also would answer the theological subject from a skeptic So can I beg a tie on that one? Yeah, I don't either both of those are fine same Equal This is more serious one. Okay, okay, would you rather be remembered as a great preacher or a faithful pastor faithful pastor? Yeah, it's faster than I thought it would be really yeah, I thought all right I mean, of course everybody wants to be known as a great preacher, but at the same every pastor wants to be known that but it's not all you do Correct, right? It's true um Would you rather have more courage or more wisdom? How well I already have all the wisdom so I'm not sure good like a little more courage and all the humility too Well, Tommy you didn't ask about humility. I'm sorry. That was gonna be my next I'm relatively courageous So I think I'd prefer the wisdom. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I would uh, I'm not gonna I won't comment on anything Uh, if you had to put this isn't a would you rather I'm just changing the question. Okay. Okay If you had to because we were having a discussion in the room For those of you who don't know our pre-production meeting is like uh, two seconds But we do like to talk with ancient hell Where he do say the questions that I'm asking you don't think that I thought through these and it's sound anyway Uh, we were talking about this so I'm gonna ask you if you if you had to pick a mainline denomination. Oh had to had to and for those of you who are listening who might not know what a mainline is uh, these are the um The main lines from Protestantism right so when the bread for reformation happened These are the main Denominations yeah, um that formed from that um So can I yep, but okay, you've asked this to me privately before I have asked it to you, so I want to know yeah But I might let no you can't you can't choose you cannot choose the liberal or the conservative Oh, yeah, so I have to choose the mainline. I can't choose so if you're So you're saying you can choose PC USA. Yes, the president sure cannot choose the the PCA right can't choose it and I and that you You can't choose the SPC We'll have to choose the a b c the American yeah, yeah So I have to choose a main you have to choose a mainline Got it you have to okay I I am probably choosing wait can okay. Yeah, I am probably choosing um Anglican Wow you've asked me this before and I'll still stick with the Anglican well, I'd ask it the other way I asked it you could choose the conservative PCA yeah, yeah, yeah, if we could choose the conservative yeah, that's a mainline if you put in Anglican Yes Well the problem so that doesn't mean I agree with all the PCA. I'm not a baby baptizer. Yeah, no Yeah, I think and so as a result Although well The other day when we were doing baby dedications I was thinking to myself. I should should have packed it packed away a little bit of water there Yeah, seeing if I get for milley seeing if I can throw them people off a little bit a little sprinkle Yeah, I did find it funny though while I was explaining what we were doing for baby baptism. I was thinking I'm sorry baby dedication. I was thinking to myself careful careful thinking to myself How many of my Presbyterian friends would be like yeah dude you're doing it? You're describing exactly what we think you're doing that big baby baptism is it's just you didn't involve water to which I'm like Yeah, see biblical Hmm It's crazy how that works. Would you rather have dinner with a gustan or see us Lewis oh gustan yeah I knew that was gonna be easier. They'd rather have dinner with more those are not on the same plane by the way I know they're not I just like I get it The sea is Lewis said pithy things, but you're asking me if I would want to have dinner with one of the most influential Like Iologians in the history of the church a North African bishop. Yep. What are you talking about of course? I know what would be my answer too All right, that's it Augustine or Athanasius. - Woof. - Better? - Yeah, I actually probably would choose Athanasius. For those, Athanasius was the dude who kept getting kicked out of everything 'cause he would not fight an area in us. - Yeah, he would not bow his knee to the idea that Jesus was less than fully God. And so he kept getting kicked out of the town. And I just think-- - That's awesome. - Yeah. - It takes a special kind of, a special kind of stubborn to just stand up against the whole world. - The whole world at that point. - I mean, really, just yeah. So I'm in it with him. I mean, I'd love to, Augustine be a, you know, Lord willing, he will preserve my faith to the end and I will stand before in the community of the great cloud of witnesses. And I will shake the hand or totally kiss the Athanasius and sit down and talk to him for a bit 'cause that is, that's pretty cool. - That is pretty cool. - All right, one more modern version. - Yeah, yeah. - Would you rather have dinner with Martin Luther or Ulrich Swingley? (laughing) - I feel like Luther would be more interesting conversation. He'd yell a lot. - He wanted to say time to-- - He did, yeah. - The time would go pretty quickly 'cause he, to be honest with you, I think that if you're into getting together with people who are just fascinating people and wouldn't mind having a dust stop with, yeah, Luther would be kind of fun. The problem is he would really make me angry. - Yeah, he'd be quite disagreeable. - Yeah, about everything. And I just think Swingley probably would not be as a more immutable. - Yeah. - A bit more immutable. - Yeah. - Yeah, I always find this Swiss a little bit. Ulrich Swingley was a-- - Good Swiss reform. - He was a Swiss repost to the German. - Yes. - And so-- - Great cheese. - I think I would enjoy probably talking to the Swiss guy. Not that Germans are bad, though. - I don't know. - Yeah. - So probably is Vingley. - Okay. - Yeah. - All right, that's fun. - That's all the quiet. - That's it. - That was all that I had for you. - All right, well thank you. - You see, I want to say, I allowed you to have full reign of that section. - How'd you feel like it went? You feel like it went good? - I think it was great. - Yeah, I actually should do it more. So we're saying. - I'm saying that sometimes you don't come prepared. Today you-- - They mean it. I come prepared every time. - Yeah. It's mostly though, they'll talk about aliens or something like that. And I know that that sometimes you can't do that every time. You know, I get it. Do you want to do a little shout out for your sports team? - I do. - Can you, yeah, I want to make sure that you-- - No seriously, Tommy, this is an important thing for you to understand. - Yeah, it's this particular year I've heard you. - The big deal I heard has been ridiculous. - Yeah. - And the reason is because I have a habit of supporting sports teams that are terrible, like really bad. And total let downs at every turn. - But you stick through all the fans. - Yeah, without a doubt. I've been thrust into these, providentially thrust into these relationships with sports teams that are just always letting me down. I don't have a, oh, back in the '90s, my team won all the time. You should go guys, have, okay? - Okay, I'm not a-- - I'm from Wisconsin. - Yeah, but even the packers at some point were good. We, so being a fan of Seattle sports has meant terrible things for me. - Terrible. - I mean, the Mariners have never made it to the World Series. - That's true. - They got close last year. But they've never made it to the World Series. The Sonic's won in 1979. And then the actual team got taken from us. - And now to the city of which we shall not speak. - Oh, okay. - They're the team now that's favored to win everything in the NBA. But we don't talk about them because they're like the X who's gone on to do great things and you're like, I hate you. - Yeah. - Sure. - So yeah, they're, like, listen, the Seattle Kraken aren't gonna win anything soon. So look, I'm just telling you-- - Didn't even know something. - But the Seattle Seahawks finally in 2013 broke through but then they followed it up the following year getting ripping the hearts out of all of us 'cause they can't hand the ball off. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But then this year comes around and nobody expected and we win. - Yeah. - We won, they're super bowl. - Big. - And there's still people who are like, yeah, but they did it on a technical-- Whatever. - This better one. - Yeah. - W's W. - Second, I support, for since 1990s, I've supported Arsenal Football Club, okay? We won-- - Which is not one of the greatest titles ever in 2003, 2004. - It's okay. - All right, Sanger. And then we were supposed to be that great. We were that good during that time, but then we have been like good, but also terrible at the same time. I mean, good enough to be promised that you can do it, but then not. And then I'm just telling you, this week, Arsenal Football Club won the English Premier League title, and they have a chance to win the Champions League. - And I'm just-- - It's a difference what's the difference between those teams. - Well, Champions League is like the super, it is the league of the best teams in all of Europe. - Okay. - Play each other in the Champions League and Arsenal's in the final of that. So that game, the Champions League final, will have more viewers across the planet than the Super Bowl. And by that, I mean like so many more viewers. We're talking about 10 to 20 times more viewers. - Sure, sure. - Superb us. And my team's in it. And they won the Premier League title. - That's big. - It is big. - That's big. - So in one year, I have a granddaughter. I have a Seahawks win and an Arsenal win. - With a possible European win. - A greater win. - Wow. - Oh, 26. - You have no idea. - Which means that all of you should get your lives straight because Jesus will be coming back in May very soon. - This is a sign of the end times. We'll talk about that on our next, the next podcast. - Speaking of signs of the end times. - Well, here we go. - Yeah. I'm gonna have a conversation today with a guy who I think believes in the end times. - Oh, well, as we should. You are gonna have a conversation and it is with our friend, John Kelly, who is a pastor in West Chicago. - I should go West, sorry. There it is. - West, I forget that those are different things. - Yeah, ones that town out in the suburbs. - Yeah, ones that actually in Chicago. - Sure caught in like one, yeah. So still learning as a Wisconsin boy, you know. Do you guys know what you're talking about? - A little bit. - Is it a doctrinal topic? - A little bit. - Okay. - All right. He doesn't know yet. - Oh, great. - Favorite kind. All right. Well, you guys are gonna get into a conversation and you're gonna do that right now. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) I'm sitting here with Pastor John Kelly from Chicago West Bible Church. And the reason, yeah, we just messed it up. When by we, I mean Tommy just messed it up by calling it West Chicago Bible Church. How long have you been a pastor of the church? - Planted the church exactly 10 years ago. - Exactly. When is the anniversary for your church? - It's technically the last week of March, but we just celebrated it the last week of April. We just, we were like, we could move it around a month this whole week with Easter and everything. So that's a good long time. 10 years for us. - God grace. It goes by quick, man. - Yeah, it does. - So. - Did you ever think that you're gonna be a church planter when you were a little boy? - No, no, not at all. - What did you think you were gonna be? - The first thing everyone to be was a wrestler. - Oh, like an actual man. I loved Hulk Hogan. - Okay, like that kind of wrestler. - Yeah, W.O. Superstar and Saturdays was my thing. - Okay. - Yeah, yeah. - I remember that. - Yeah, so 80s. - And you're throwing it back to WF even around anymore? - I checked out in like a wrestling federation. I think it's called WWE now. - Yeah, I've been. - Yeah, I looked over to the nerds in the room. They said. So, where are you from? Well, like where are you from? Are you from Chicago? - Born in Chicago, but grew up in Philadelphia. - Okay. - So technically from the East Coast, but yeah, family from Jamaica, mom came up from Jamaica, had me in Chicago. - Okay. - A lot of drama and pain. I'd be protective of her. So she ended up in Philadelphia. Then grew up in Philly. And then moved back here 15 years ago. - Oh, wow. So, do you consider, when you go back to Philadelphia, do you kind of feel a little like this is home? - Yeah, Philly has always been home, but when you get 15 years in Chicago. - Yeah. - You know, so I'm kind of a Chicago Philadelphia. So I told the Lord I'll be here as long as you have me. I just don't give up my Philadelphia. - Isn't that like a weird denomination? Oh, that's Christa Delphian. - Christa Delphian, probably. - Chicago Delphian. - There's, you know, there's overlap 'cause the city's the city. So I'm used to be, I'm always been a city kid. - Okay. - And even living in the East Coast, like my family was, and Philly and then a lot of family in New York, [BLANK_AUDIO] - Brooklyn, Queens, I would be in New York like 10 times. - So what kind of house did you grow up in? - Single parent home. - Apartment though, or like a row house. - Yeah, apartment row houses. I mean, Philly, everybody's on top of everybody. It's like New York, like, you know, L-Train, loud music to four in the morning. Everybody's on top of each other. - Okay. - The whole world's there. - What decade do you consider your growing up? - The 90s. - Okay, so the 90s were amazing. I'll tell my kids about the 90s all the time. - So you're a fan of boys, too, man. - Yeah, yeah, boys, the man. Yeah, Philly, Motown. - Yeah. - That was a big thing. So yeah, 90s was like my prime kind of teenage errors. - Okay. - Born in '83, I'm 43. - Yeah. - So yeah, like '96 to '99 was like my teenage. - What would you do? I mean, you're growing up. What would you do? Single parent home, you're your mom. What would you do for a during the day? - Just ripping and running the street. So I think I grew up a pretty good kid at first. My mom was married to my stepfather. I had a lot of drug dealers, I was around, their friends and family. - And that was through him? - Well, your family. - Yeah, that just sounds like, yeah. Your family in general, but. - Yeah, so then when my mom and stepfather divorced, it was just tough. She was working two, three jobs, and that's when I ended up in the streets a lot more. 'Cause you know, you know, you know, dads or kids. - Yeah, he wasn't my biological father. He was my stepfather. - Yeah. - So I never had newsroom. - So you were outside on the street so a lot? - Yeah, you were outside ripping and running, so a lot of dumb stuff. - All right. - Dumb stuff. So I can go on and on about that. - Okay, give me one dumb stuff. Just to give us an idea is to kind of, kind of young man, you were, were you involved in any kind of gangs? - Nah, I feel like he doesn't have gangs, but some of the drugs, I was like 12. - Oh wow. - I was like, oh wow. I was always getting shot at. First time I ever got arrested, convicted. I was like 13. So spent the my teenage years and not a juvenile detention centers. - Okay. - Went to, felt the seventh grade, went to four different high schools in my freshman year and then dropped out. - Four different ones. - Yeah, so I got into a school called Parkway. That was like downtown. My mom was like happy. It was like you got into like, Yale. (laughing) - You're the sum. I made it to October. - Yeah. - I started like August, September. I got kicked out selling drugs. They sent me to a disciplinary school called Shell Cross. And that's like, if you get expelled from the city, like you stab a teacher, you do something, you go to the shelter. - It's like prison, but you get to go home. - Yeah. - I broke the record for getting out there the fastest. So I got out there like three months. Then they sent me to my neighborhood school, which has been Franklin. That was a nightmare because our neighborhood had about five or six different housing projects and everybody went to the same school. And the cafeteria was up on the sixth floor. So you had to go through the staircases to get to the lunch cafeteria. And at every level, there was dudes in the hallway. My hand worked. But yeah, it was crazy. So I never stayed after 12 o'clock. I don't know how I passed. I couldn't tell you anything that happened. Like dudes, you just walk out. So I never was at Ben Franklin past 12 and I aced it. (laughing) And so I passed the ninth grade, started like the first month of the 10th grade. So I had completed ninth grade and dropped out. - Okay. - So yeah. When I was at show cross though, I had turned to Islam. - Okay. - So Philadelphia has a very large SUNY Muslim population in the black community. So I was just looking for-- - What drew you to it? What drew you to it? - Looking for love. - Okay. - I just saw how nobody bothered the Muslims. There was kind of like a masculinity there. It was a community I was looking for. But I never had enough dad. But I wouldn't say I was like this devout Muslim. You know, I definitely fasted doing Ramadan. I learned to mix a lot in prayer. But I wouldn't say I was like some devout Muslim. It was really looking for community. And yeah, kept running the streets, realized that, realized for me that I wasn't the best salesman. So drug dealing was not my thing. I just didn't feel like sitting on on corners all day long and doing that. So I'm still going in and out of jail, losing a lot of friends to violence and getting shot at. And then when I was 19, I went with a group of friends to rob one of the drug dealers in our neighborhood. And one of my friends shot and killed them. Oh, so I had just turned 19. By then, I had a son at the time, who's my oldest now, who I wasn't in his life, had a abortion right after him. Then the woman I was living with, we had a stillborn. And then I got arrested. Wow. So I was at like a low point, sitting in silence. 19 years old. Yeah, this was 2002, March 2002, March 15th. I got arrested. Was sitting in solitary confinement, looking at the death penalty. When a prison guard gave me a copy of God's word, I began reading it. That's how I came to faith in Christ. Never went to a church service. Never heard of sermon preached. Was sitting in the hole in solitary confinement, looking at the death penalty with my life over, just participated in taking someone's life, just literally helped my dead son in my arm less than a month ago. And the lawyer met me right then and there. So what exactly drew you to? Did you start reading? Yeah, I was bored of death. I'm in solitary confinement. So what happened was at that time, there was just so much violence in the Philadelphia area that if you came in for a violent crime, they didn't have anywhere to put you in the maximum security section. So they just put you in solitary confinement. And solitary confinement is like in the streets, if you get in trouble, you go to jail. In jail, like if you're getting trouble, you go to the solitary confinement. It's called 23 and 1. So you're in a room, the size of your bathroom, no windows, lights are on 24 hours a day, seven days a week. You only come out for one hour a day, either to make a quick phone call or take a shower. And you're like really don't, you're not even allowed a human contact. So like you're just bored, you're in the room. Like it is mentally tough, you know? - I'm here allowed books. - You're allowed books. So back then, you remember, we had newspapers. People who have the newspapers, I was like, "Yo, give me something to read." I would read, you know, newspapers, do crossword puzzles. And so I remember the guard was like, "Yeah, I don't know if we, I'll see if there's a newspaper, I'll get you a Bible." And I was like, "Whatever, just give it to me." So I just, that's really what it was. I wasn't like, I was like, this heart, my heart was broken and tender. Even my world was shattered. I figured my life was over. But I wouldn't say like, I was this hungry thirsty, seeking out the door. - No. - Like I was open. I would say this, I was far more open than I had ever been. My life was over. And then he came back like two hours later with a, NIV, New Testament. The one has like the Proverbs. - Yeah, he saw him in the back. And I was drawn to the cover. It said, "There's hope for you, Jesus cares." Open it, began reading it. I started in Matthew and I read all the way through Hebrews and I stopped. I must have read like 24, I was straight, I was just reading. And I got to you, chapter three where it says like, "Today if you hear his voice, do not heart in your heart." - That's right. - And gave my life to the Lord. And right there, I remember getting down on my knees, confessed every sin I could think of. My theology wasn't fleshed out fully because I still had an Islamic theology. So my understanding was like, "Oh well, you can go to heaven "but kind of like Catholicism, just purgatory." You'll do your time. And then, so I remember just being like, "Okay, you know, give my life to the Lord." But as I kept reading every day, I realized within a week who the sun set free and free indeed. So that's a quick summary of just kind of, how many years ago? - How long was this? - How would you be, how long ago? - Yeah, no, but how long were you in Salatir? - Close to a year. - Oh wow. I remember the Lakers were playing. I can't remember, they had beat my sixers in 2001, but I remember the Lakers were hot right then. It was a cold B-shack. And I got moved out of Salatir confinement to general population. So I got to go on to block now with like all the inmates and like, I'm just gonna like, well, there's inmates in Salatir confinement, but like everybody can like actually play chess. So hang on like, you see this? - I mean, just as in a size, is that like massively weird experience to come out of not seeing anybody for all that time and then all of a sudden be thrust into this? - Brother, I was in the tube TV in the day room on the thing and I was just sitting there staring at commercials and all 'cause I was like, now mind you, you see people because every day you gotta take a shower and the guard comes and get out. I didn't tell you this. Every morning between like 430 and 630, the guards would come in and Salatir confinement make all the inmates get out of their cell. Strip your naked, strip search you, check for drugs, tear your cell up and then leave. It was like, dude, what are we hiding in here? - We're going. They just did it to make your life miserable. So I didn't have to deal with that anymore, but when I was on the block, it was just crazy 'cause now I'm around like 3, 400 inmates and we're all interacting and it's crazy 'cause you would see somebody on the news of something like, you know, crazy and then they'll walk right past you slowly. - You think of, you know, like, and when people think of like inmates or criminals, they think of like gangs, drug dealers. Man, you got police officers, politicians, doctors, like some of the smartest people you could find in your life or incarcerated is not always like. Most of them aren't drug dealers in addicts. They're people who've tax fraud. You know, I was locked up with John Dupont. Like he's a billionaire. You know, so it's just like, you got all type of people in there. - Yeah. - And you just be like, wow, that's so-and-so. You know, that's, oh, that's, you know. So this is small world. It was a different world. - But yeah. - How'd you get out? - Prison in general. Yeah, so part of coming to faith in Christ is, you know, I just felt very convicted after probably a few months of just like, man, I'm praying to God, I got a lawyer asking the lawyer, you know, get me out of this. I'm pleading not guilty, getting the lawyer to fight this case. And I started feeling convicted too, like, man, you know, how can you say you repent and then you're pleading not guilty, right? It's like, let's say you're arrested for tax fraud. And you know you did it. And now you're like pleading not guilty, you're getting the lawyer trying to beat the case. How can you say you're repented in the sight of God and you're pleading not guilty? And so I just told my lawyer, like, man, I'm a Christ follower now, I'm part of following Christ is that you take full ownership and responsibility and I can't sit here and ask God for help and say that I've repented and I'm pleading not guilty. And he thought I had a chance of possibly, you know, beating the case. I did have a co-defendant who was testifying against us and they got him stand. But he thought he had like a 50/50 shop. But for me, it wasn't about that. It was like I was totally aware that I was going in front of not Judge Kronin but the Lord. And so, man, I just threw myself on the mercy of your court. And my lawyer is funny because my lawyer was Jewish. And I'm running, being like, man, you Jewish, man, you supposed to say I understand what I'm talking about. So he, but either way, so he went front in District Attorney, there was a whole long process and I had been incarcerated by then for about like a year, a year and a half that kept pushing my court date back. And they was like, yeah, okay, we'll let you plead out the third degree murder. And so I did that, went up for sentencing and had the young man's family there. And that's just a very emotional thing. I mean, think of like, you know, when you're a believer, you're seeing what's the right way you see differently. And what we don't realize is we're off then. And I think Christian struggle with this is we think about a sanctification and growing and holiness and Christ's likeness and sending less and walking in purity of heart and trying not to give into my flesh and anger and gluttony and whatever, right? And I think that's where we spend a lot of our time as believers thinking about those things of like, man, I want to walk in purity for the Lord. I want to walk in the spirit, not fulfill the desires of the flesh. But where Christians really struggle is, what do you do to clean up one hour eight from the damage? Like, you know, like, yes, you might now be walking with the Lord as a good husband, the godly husband. But you can't get back the damage you did of missing your kids high school years. The jerk you was in your marriage. Like, and I think we don't know what to do back there. And so I was forgiven in Christ, but it didn't remove my consequences. I still had to deal with that. And you kind of feel like you're getting punished for your old life, because you're like, I'm a new man. Yeah, I'm not even going to do any of that. But you still have to go look that young man's mother in the eye. And if you're a parent, like, you know, the grief of losing a child to murder. Like, yeah, you could say he was a drug dealer, but as a believer, you're like, no, he was a young man. I believe like 21 years old, creating an image of God, who was a father of like, I think like a 12 month old at the time who did not deserve to lose his life. And there was no winners in that situation. So how do you look a mother in the eye? Would you say, I'm sorry? So I just really felt the crushing weight of that. And I remember sharing my testimony quickly, but knowing like that don't mean crap to her. Yeah. And just saying, and I've said it to this day, you know, Jesus says a knife, or nine, or two, four, two, like if I could swap places with your son, I would, you know, but whatever you want to do, like, do like, I deserve that. So I'm not even, I'm gonna ask for mercy, but whatever, you know, I'm owning it. And so I was long story short, I apologize to them in the district attorney, the judge, and I ended up with six to 20 years for third degree murder. Normally you do 85% of your time. So if you get 20 years, you're gonna be in prison for like 18 and a half years. But guys, Grace, I did six years in May parole and came home with 14 years. So when I was in prison, I got my GED. Oh, good. That was like my mission feel. So when my, my salvation experience was simultaneous with a feeling of calling the ministry, I just thought it'd be in prison for the rest of my life. So when I came to faith in Christ, like Paul and the road to Damascus, like I felt this burden to live as a missionary and preach to gospel and make disciples. I wasn't even thinking about ever talking to you or being out here and nothing like that. It was just like, you're thinking about where you are in that moment. So you were in prison and I get my GED. We're starting prayer meetings on different cell blocks where we're starting to be planting churches on different cell blocks. I'm growing in my knowledge of the scriptures. I was making 19,000 an hour. And so I always say like, yo, I used to make money. You're working so hard for money you find in the couch. Yeah. You know, or in the floor in your car. So 19,000 an hour, it would take me three months to save up to order concordants. So I remember I ordered my first strong concordants in my youngs analytical concordants. And this is like 2003, 2004. So Christian book distributor was a B.S. CP2. Yeah, man. So I would work like three months, four months, just to get $40, $50, and then order something and wait two months for it to arrive. And that's all I pretty much do is just order different books and study and grow with the church inside. What did you find it? Was there anything that you had access to other than that that was helpful or is it-- I mean, you got Bible study in prison and different ministries come in. And we had a nice heart of hearing, kind of deaf demographic. And so I got to meet some of those believers. So for about two years, I never went to Bible study with those who were hearing. I went to Bible study. I was the only guy who could hear. But it was so rich to learn the word of God, the pastor that would come in, he was deaf. And he would come in every Wednesday and do a two hour Bible study. And it'd be like eight guys around the table. I'm the only one that could hear. And everything is being signed. And I met one of those guys in the kitchen. They taught me ASL and we connected. I would sit with them at church and that section and like-- [INAUDIBLE] Yeah, that was great. But you know, you don't use it. You lose it. But yeah, my faith was growing in it. It was not for the faint of heart being-- prison is one of the hardest places to live out your faith. It's not where you turn the other cheek. No. It is a place where you've got to be a man quick. You could talk all that stuff out here. There is no calling the police. There's no-- I've seen guards beat guys so they're paraplegics. You see riots. You see-- yeah. The first thing you notice when you-- so when I got convicted and I got sentenced, that was on a county jail. Then you get sent to a state prison. That's different. When you're in a county, most people are not there more than two years. They're like there are three months, four months. State prison. That's when you got life. That's when you get to-- You got dudes ain't going home. So them stabbing you and going to the whole for six months and getting another life sentence ain't a problem. When you get to state prison and you get off that bus and you get in the intake, do you notice the first question they ask you? Hit me. Where do you want your body sent? The best of very question they ask you when you sit down and you better answer quick. Because there's a hundred people behind you. I was like, what? She was like, Mr. Kelly, I said, where do you want your body sent? I'm like, what do you-- I was not prepared for it to ask me. I'm like, what do you-- and she's like, you got to come on, young man. I got a lot of other people to take care of. She's like, you're not guaranteed to make it out of here. And in case you get killed, we need to know where to send you. And so you plan your funeral. That's the first thing you do. And so I was just like, oh, man. So you're talking about having a prayer life, growing in humility. Everybody in prison reads, they know Greek Hebrew, air, make every language, the Bible back and forth. So I love for theology. And the scriptures came out of my love for God, but also-- With a lot of time. Oh, yeah. But rigorous debates. Yeah. And so-- Yeah, so-- That's fascinating, right? I mean, what an interesting providence that the Lord kind of was training you in the midst of this crazy setting. So I made parole in 2008. March 2008 came home with 14 years of parole to do-- Were you expecting that to happen? No. I want to put it on the parole meeting. Yeah, I mean, I got grilled, man. It was like, I don't know if you've ever seen a movie "Shawshank Redemption." I have, yeah. You're just like, you like to do it. Because you got to say the right things. And you believe it. But there's still used to like-- you get people who-- They make parole. And then we had a guy in 2000-- I don't know if it was like 2001, 2002-- he made parole. And then his first week out, he killed the police officer. Wow. Nobody made parole for the next five years. So it's just-- And it's a lot. And so you can say on a right things, but you'll get punished for someone else's sins. So I didn't go on with any expectations. And they gave me, they, they granted me parole. It's interesting because anybody that does over five years, you have to go to a halfway house. You can't go straight home. Yeah. They let me go straight home. Wow. And from prison straight to my mom's house to a bed and, you know, it was weird the first week out, but how do you find out that they, that you make parole? Sorry. You get what's called a green sheet. So about a month, a month and a half later, you get a sheet. They call you to the information office. Did you know when you called, they called you to the information office that you might be getting? Oh, I knew the green, everybody gets the green sheet because you get sure that's how you know if you get granted or denied parole. Yeah. I just, I know I'll just like, and then she opposite of the woman that I first met this woman was just like, all right, Mr. Kelly, have a seat. Do you know why you're here? I'm like, yeah, I was like looking at the floor, whatever. And she was like, all right. So you know, you've been granted parole. You're going to your mother's house. Once she said that, you're like, I don't hear anything like. She was talking. It was vague. And then I was terrified for like the next two months because your, your minimum date is normally two months. You know, you see the parole. So if you're like, if you got like a six year minimum, you'll see the parole board three months before that six months. So it is terrifying. I mean, when you get, you know that you get out. Well, you know, you have a date because there's a lot of guys that are haters. Yeah. And they, yeah, guards try to, you know, work against you because it's like, they know you're going home. So you can do whatever I need you to do. Yeah. Or I'll get you in trouble and you won't. So yeah, I was hiding, man. Yeah. I was. And then you get home and then you get home and home is in Philadelphia. Yeah. Yeah. So by then my, though my mother had moved into a really nice neighborhood. Has some stability. She was working at St. Christopher's Hospital. And so it was a quiet suburb right outside the city. So got put came there. It's interesting. So the story, the woman that I was dating at the time when I first got arrested that we lost a child together. She had left after like six months in. So I was devastated. But it just found Christ and man, I was at a low point. But she was staying with a woman at her job. She had worked at TJ Maxx and there was a woman there, older woman, who knew the Lord. And so when this sister that I was dating moved on, the woman she was staying with would write me like an older mother. And her small group would pray for me every Thursday. They had a white board in their small group and they would put names on their people they're praying for. So for six years, they prayed for me. That's amazing. I never knew this woman. Never knew the church. Never knew just new, you know, and I'm a new, never miss the birthday. Every birthday, scripture, handwritten letters, cards. So what do you think I went? Would you see her right to that small group? Yeah. Remember an act. What a cool experience for that small group, by the way. If some small groups listening to have this experience, you'll totally get this white born and start putting names on it and praying. When I walked there, remember in the book of Acts where Peter gets out of the, and he comes in the house and everybody's been praying for him, but he walks in and everybody's shocked. They can't even believe that he's there. That's how I was. It was like, like they seen a ghost that actually was there. I'm like, well, you was praying for me. What do you think? I think they wouldn't you expect that. So start going to that church. It was Christian Stronghold Church in West Philadelphia, a very solid, large African-American church. The pastor there who disciples me and some of the pastors there, they were very connected to Moody Bible Institute. And so that's where I was serving. That's where I met my wife. We recorded, went through pre-Maladro, got married and just submitting to their leadership about me feeling called to ministry since I was in prison. They affirmed it. But they said they were connected to Moody and they was like, hey, you should do some training. Yeah, you should do some training and go to Moody. So most of the guys who were at the church or either preached at our church either went to like Moody or DTS. So, so I ended up, that's the whole of the story. God worked in Miracle for me to get to Chicago. I never wanted to go to Chicago. I never knew nothing about it. I just knew my, you know, that's what I was going to use. Yeah. And I wasn't there long enough few months. There's some trauma connected there. Father never met was there. It was like a Egypt to me, Moody's in Egypt. And when you're in parole, you can get accepted to Oxford. It don't matter where you're not allowed to leave the county. Yeah. So you could be like, hey, I got full ride to Harvard. Yeah. And my key, Stanford, it don't matter. You're stuck. Unless you have a family in that city and state. Oh, so. And so right when I was applying for Moody, I connected. With a brother I had never met in Chicago via Facebook. And finally talked to my biological father who I never met. And now I'm in my 30s for the first time. So they granted my transfer to Chicago because my biological father was still there. So my wife and I got married in February 2011. And then by July, we were unpacking our boxes at Moody, Bible Institute with no money in the account except 700 bucks. So we had probably like four grand worth of bills to do with the end of the month. Yeah. No job lined up, but we knew that we knew that we knew God said to go. Yeah. And I got story after story about how he took care of us. I learned from it. So we ended up in Chicago. He did a degree there. Yes. I got my bachelor's at Moody, Bible Institute. Okay. That's great. And at what point along this path did you think, did you think of just kind of past or a church or did you want to plant? At that. Yeah. No. Yeah. So I told the harvest. It's yeah. I thought to, I mean, I also had a missionary heart when I got to Chicago. The goal was just to go to school and we're like, oh, we're going to go back to the East Coast. Once we got in Chicago, about the second week there after I got off a house arrest. Because you had to be on house arrest the first week until they get stuff settled. I just felt the Lord like, you don't tell me where you're going. Just keep your hands open. And me and Danielle felt very convicted about that. Like we don't get to tell God where we're going and what we're doing. So we're like, all right, wherever you are telling us to go, but we're not sure where we can go with parole. And I had 14 years of parole ago. So by then, no, no, and by then it was 11 because I'd been home about three years. So I'm at Moody and I'm working as a janitor. I'm cleaning working from night, you know, night shift. And my wife sends me to Walgreens one day and I'm walking to Walgreens and I see this old cathedral building with a beat up sign that says future home of harvest Bible Chapel. Yeah. I never heard of it, but I just felt like, hey, you should look into that. We were looking for church homes. We had some recommendations. At the time, harvest had a campus on the north side of Bell School. And so we visited, we showed up and it was, it was, it was cool. It was different. Yeah. I was used to being in cross culture setting because my family, that's a whole other story. But I wasn't used to like seeing anybody on the screen. And so we sat right in the front. You're like, oh, I got a poor, four, four, the campus pastor did announcements and everything. So I have my by boy and my ESV, my highlight. Yeah. So he gets off and we see a preacher come up on the screen. And then my wife's looking at me. I'm looking at her. I don't know. And then she goes, she says out loud like you could hear us in the first eight rows. She's like, man, I ain't come all the way here to watch TV. I'm like, man, you're making us the stereotypical black folks. Man, why is you doing that? And so it, but then me and Brian, the campus pastor connected, you know, some guys you meet and then everybody done left the church and y'all just still talking. And yeah, it was just like, we just connected. And he's like, man, this is, man, we swap numbers in literally within like three, four weeks. He found a way to get me on staff for like five hours. And so yeah, I was at Harvest Cathedral was doing my, you know, training. By then I just had different friends that I grew with different church plant networks. So fellowship associates at 29, or should group in New York. I just started to know I knew Eric Mason from Philly. He was doing church plantings like, hey, why don't you come back here? I knew Brian Laritz. And so different people's like, hey, why don't you come here? But I really was drawn to just the, the principles of faithful, expository preaching and vertical worship and everything I was hearing at Harvest. And I was just like, man, if I, if I could see something like this in a context like where I came from, that'd be great. And I'm highly relational. So I had relationships there and there was a guy named Kent Shaw. And I'm so I knew Kent Shaw and Kirk Van Maan. I didn't really know anybody else. But I had relationships with them. And they was like, man, why don't you plant with us? So when I graduated from Moody, I was sent out from rolling meadows to plant Chicago, West Bible Church. Why Chicago West? We know that. Why that area? The Lord, we was someone embarrassing moment. We were really looking to the south side to the Bronzeville neighborhood. My last year at Moody, me and a guy named Kent Steiner, who was at Elgin, we would spend two days a week just praying. You know, we call it shaking trees in a neighborhood connecting in the south side. And for like a year, no doors was just open. And it was so discouraged. And it was like breaking up concrete with a hammer. And then we had some friends at by the hand club for kids and we knew Donita Travis, who's the president there. And they were just like, why don't you come West? Our heart was, you know, we're not trying to have a set up in tear down church. We're trying to engage our community and we want access to lost people. So that's what we're trying to like what gives us access to lost people? When by the hand was like, man, our larger site is in Austin. There's 400 kids there. We'll give you access. When we went over to Austin, we accomplished more in three hours. and one day, then over a year. Like we had like three, four schools, they was like, yeah, you can meet here by the hand. I was like, you could use offices. Like it's just like the spread. Yeah. And it was clear God was like, go there. So then, you know, by then, we had told some of our core team, we had told them they were going south, so some people signed leases. Oh yeah. Yeah, the family that was getting the house built, you told them in a decisive leader, oh my goodness, to go back and say, hey, I know we've been fast, and I pray, and I said the Lord said, and then you go that passage in James. You know how it says, if you plan going here, it's double binding. It's the Lord wills. Yeah, you'll do this or that. So we launched 10 years ago. Wow, 2016 then. Yep. Easter, Easter came early that year. So there's the last Sunday. What's your area like Chicago West? So Austin is, I'm gonna say like 90, something percent African-American, but it's becoming more Hispanic, because Austin is the largest landmast of the 77 neighborhoods in Chicago, so it's the largest police precinct, the largest land area. It's like 100,000 people and more in Hanabia. But when you get to the north part, it's predominantly Hispanic, and then when you pass Roosevelt, all the way to the far south part of Austin, it's Cicera, which is like being in Little Mexico. So Austin is diversifying, but then our street, where our church is on Lake Street, if you go to the corner of our street, you leave the city limits, and you're now in Oak Park. So we're at that spot where everyone, there's you can go within a three-block radius and you meet all these different people. So I would say our church reflects our community in the west side for sure, but we have a lot of people from Oak Park, the western suburbs. We have people that come from Naperville, Naperville, Wheaton, Bowling, Brook, downtown, and north side, the south side. I mean, for a couple of years, we had people come from Kankakee. So the church is grown when we got sent out. There was about like 20 something people that came with us from harvest. We made it through COVID. I didn't know who was in the church. - No, nobody did. - Nobody did. I was like, you know, yeah, we was like, we were trying to look at like, who's viewing us and trying to even see us. And then we found out we had people at our church that lived in different states now. But then once we got the facility that we were in, and it came, the church just was growing. And so man, we've grown to about 600 people now. I would say like half the church is African-American and another 50% is about like probably 40, something different, nationalities. And man, it's just sweet spot, man. People, it's interesting preaching there because you have so many different age and education. Like it's really a mixture. We have professors from Wheaton, seminaries, and you got moody students and Bible college students. And then you got dudes, this high school drop house, like I was, you got police officers, you got people in Mary for 50 years. People with a single parent, it's just how you preach and the illustration you use, it's really great serving the body there. But. - Well, just hearing your story, it makes you think about how much your background and experience has probably prepared you to work in that kind of setting, right? With lots of different kinds of people. And guys who are not, you know, who are sort of - The streets for sure. I think the educational piece and just, so my family, I think it was from Jamaica. My grandmother, her mother was Jamaican, her father was Chinese. So our family is like a mixture of Jamaican and Chinese. So we say we're Jamaican ease. Then we had like some interracial marriages where like white uncles, they would, you know, so like I grew up in like the inner city and filled out people, but my family was like this large, and then I would spend my summers in Jamaica. So soon as school was over, I was like 13. The next day we was on Air Jamaica flying in Jamaica. And so I had this kind of like non-Western perspective, non-American perspective, but then like this, American perspective, I was born here. So I think, you know, having that cross-cultural piece helps in the city like Chicago. And then as far as like dudes in the streets, I didn't get off parole to 2022. - Yeah. - So for the much of the years of past in Chicago, well, it's also in parole, so I went to the same parole offices as the guys in the community. They would be weird because they'd be like, what'd you do for a living? Like, yeah, I'm a pastor. And they'd be like, like, no, I'm not one of them. I didn't steal my money. I came to faith in prison. And then, you know, but it was cool because all the stuff we do with the police department and the baseball and the city, it allowed me to want to be able to connect with guys that they can talk to someone who you can relate. But then also have resources to offer your kids. You know, like man, we do mentoring. We have resources for parents, you know, meals, sports activities. And so, you know, and today, if you in a city like Chicago or you in the streets, if you're dealing with gangs, good father's always respect people that love their kids. - Yeah. - And they do. - And they protect you. So, you know, God gave me a lot of favor, gave us a lot of favor with the police department. We do a lot with the 15 police district, a lot of the community stuff. - That's great. - And then we serve kids. You know, you hear a funny thing? - Yeah. - So our, we plant the church in 2016. First baptism service, like a month later. First guy on baptized. Cook county district attorney. - Talk about it. - Only in the kingdom of-- - I was gonna say this in the word, holy holy-- - Only in the kingdom of heaven can a convicted murderer baptize a district attorney and be his pastor. - Yeah. - He's a judge today. - Yeah. - So I just saw him a couple of weeks ago. - Yeah. - So it is, it is the only place where you find that kind of brotherhood. Tell me, are you family? - Yeah, so been married to Daniel for 15 years. He'd been together for 17. So we just celebrated back in February 15 years. I have three sons. My oldest son is 26. He's back in Philadelphia. We reconnected about five years ago. 'Cause I was into the dumb stuff. And it was not in his life, went to prison. He moved so we were able to connect in man. God has restored the years, the locust is he. - He's fast. - You were never missed to beat. And in Daniel and I have Benjamin and Judah. And then I got two kids in heaven, one from the abortion and one from a stillborn. So obviously I have five. But yeah, so we're in the season of life now. Khalid, my oldest, who's 26, he lives in Philly. He works at the airport. So hopefully we'll be seeing him next month. But Ben and Judah, they're in that sports. So we're just like. - All over the place. - Oh, kind of sports, they play? - Well Ben's in the F1 race. And so we got to do training at the Indy Speedway. He gets trained by a team Penske. Like Roger Penske's team, yeah. So we're around all the F1 and Indy car stuff. That's a blessing. But then they both do basketball and track. - That's great. - So it's like every day is like a practice. - Yeah, when you get in the sports and especially show promise in it, it can be quite an experience. - Yeah, so it is dumb. - But yeah, and then a dog, a dog, we got a-- - A dog's name. - Reese, mini golden, COVID dog. - Is it what, mini golden? - Mini golden due to. So yeah, it's fuzzy ones. - We talked mom into letting us get that. - Yeah. - So she was like, "No, that's just another child "and I'm gonna be stuck home with the dog." - So she probably loves the dog, man. That's how it works. - Anybody else right? - That's why so. - That's how it works. So what are your hopes for your church? And then next little while, like what kinds of things do you guys think, oh, if we could do this, if we could-- We just wanna be known as a sending church and a generous church. Like if we stay the same size, we even shrink, but we can just send out people to the nation. So in 10 years, we've been able to send out seven missionaries. We've helped to plant two churches, and now we're planting one church on the south side. - Oh, wow. - And so we feel like when we got sent out, I remember the Christmas before we launched, man, I was in tears. We didn't know how we was gonna even launch to do whatever, and I remember the saints at Rolling Meadows raised about like a quarter of a million dollars to see our church launched. And we wouldn't have made it without that. And we've carried that principle of paying it forward. So we just wanna be as generous with whatever little we have. And we found that at the more open-handed, we are the more God puts in our hands. And so I think for us, we just wanna be generous with finances, with resources, with time, with people. We just wanna be known as the ascending church. We wanna be anti-Octius. How many missionaries do we send out? How many families do we disciple and train to go live for Christ, where they live, work and play as missionaries? That's really it. - John, you and I get along very well. - That's kind of my heart, too. - And the last thing is just, you know, a question I always ask is like, you know, I put this in front of our church every year, and I did an 10-year anniversary. The question that keeps me up that drives everything is, are the people who call Chicago West by a church home more in love with Jesus and more equipped for kingdom service because of the time they spent here? We know some people to be here for five weeks, five months, five years. Chicago is very transient, but can we say that people are more in love with Jesus and more equipped for kingdom service because of the time they spent here? And I challenge our church body with that. Can people say that about you, are people more in love with Jesus and more equipped for kingdom service because of the time they spent with you in your small group hanging around with you for the last two years? Whether they're a college student, retired or whatever. So that's my hope is that people are more in love with Jesus, more equipped for kingdom service and love in a global church. And let me just try to help people make it home. - Yeah, it's so fantastic. - That's great. Well, that's actually some stuff that we can pray for you about. - Yeah, yeah. - And I pray that you know, I pray that you know, that you have another 10 years, 20 years, 30 years in front of you, whatever the Lord wills, right? - Yeah, I just try to keep it open-handed, you know? I'm just whenever Joshua comes. - Yeah, you're only 40 what? - Three. - You're just a kid. - I know, right? - You got years. - You know, every decade, you'd be like, "Ah, I thought that was older, that's actually young." - Yeah. - So to me, until you like 88, you know. - Yeah. (laughs) - Yeah, until you like 88. - But at 88, you're like, no, okay. - Nah, I got some old men now. - Yeah, so you guys have been a blessing for, I would say the last, maybe five years, like every couple of months, I get a text message from Pastor Dave learning. And he's like, "Tell us how we could pray for your pasted John, so tell us how we could pray for you." - We do, pray for you, your church and our services. I've been in many of them. - We try to implement that. - We're praying for Pastor John Kelly at Congo West. - We try to implement that now because of you guys. Now I text guys and be like, "Hey, you know, so, yeah, but thank you for even having me." - Of course. Well, part of what our hope is in the days ahead is to have more influence, similar to what you have, more influence in terms of trying to send missionaries into the future, right? Just wanna see churches, more better churches, more better disciples, more better leaders, all over the place. So it's been really great meeting you. Okay, before we finish here, you are wearing a Southern seminary. - Yeah. - Sure. Is that because you've been going to Southern seminary or been doing work with them, or did they just give you a shirt and said, "Where are the surrounds?" So people. - No. - I gotta, let me encourage some saint that's praying for provision. I went to Moody, got my pastors in theology, then went to Wheaton, got my masters in biblical studies, and then went to Southern and got my doctorate and global missions, and I didn't pay for anything. - Congratulations. - So God's grace, a high school dropout, isn't that I'm a doctorate? - So doctor John Kelly. - Oh, you should talk to my mom. You would think I'm like a literal physical doctor. - Yeah, but you need to play that up. That you are, that's called a physician, you're a doctor. - Listen, my wife, I put my email, she was like, I know that she had emailed it and say, "Dr. John Kelly, look, I struggled too much while you better put that up to her." - That's gotta be worse, something. - So now I put it up, there, but yes, I'm grateful just for the schools I'm able to go to. - That's fantastic. - Guys like me, where I come from, don't get to go to the schools. - No, well, Southerners are well known school. Are you guys, are you at all affiliated with Souther Baps now? - Well, we have a partnership with Senn Network. - Yeah. - And so, yeah, we love Senn as an amazing network. - Really helpful. - So when we planted, we planted with Senn Network. But we partner with, and are connected to quite a few different church plant networks and missions agencies. - That's great. - So we all have the kingdom. - Yeah. - That's the right way to go. I think anyway. - Yeah. - Thanks so much for spending time with me, dude. It's been great talking to you. For anybody who is ever interested, it is a Chicago West Bible church. You can Google it, find out if you got a Sunday morning free. What time do you guys have services? - 9 a.m. and 11 a.m. - 9 and 11, you can find a place there and experience, Jones. I've been told you're quite a preacher. - Oh, okay. - Yeah, I mean, you told it to me, but it was weird. - I did. - I know you didn't actually. - I've been told by others. I haven't told you by others that you're a gifted communicator. So I think that's it. - I think that's it. - I think that's a couple of years back with Elijah. - I think you guys are doing a series of Elijah. I preach to the couple of years. - Well, that's great. Okay, God bless you. Bless you. Talk to you next time. (upbeat music) (gentle music)