S15 E11: How TV is Working for DTC Brands (with Jeff Katz, Head of Emerging Sales at Roku)

Welcome back to Limited Supply, the podcast where we get deep into the tactical and strategic side of e-commerce, digital marketing, and building consumer brands. I'm your host, Nick Sharma. I've spent the last nine years building, scaling, and investing in brands, and through this show and my weekly newsletter at nip.co/email. I'm here to share everything I've learned, the wins, the losses, the experiments, the tactics, and the insights. Also, you can unlock your next $100,000 in revenue. Today's episode is a good one, but before we dive in, let me tell you about our chosen sponsor for this week's episode. If you're a Shopify brand, pay attention. Roku Ads Manager is built for growth marketers and makes connected TV way easier to test. Go to advertising.roku.com/limitedsupply. All right, Jeff, welcome to Limited Supply. Excited to have you here. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Nick. We don't normally get the business side of the platforms that we work with. It's always fun to get somebody like you on and help break down what's actually happening at the companies that we hear marketing in our space and trying to talk to the marketers. I'm excited to dive into that. Before we jump in, can you give us just a quick background on yourself? How would your mom brag about you at a dinner party this weekend? Well, it depends how long your podcast is because my mom is quite proud of me. Well, I'll try and limit this, but I think it's interesting for me to be here and being on with the D to C guy because most of my career, I've spent primarily on the enterprise side and working with the largest media companies and holding companies in the world. Really big brands like in the automotive space, restaurant space, and I feel like I've sold pretty much everything in our industry with the exception of print and won't bring up print because I don't know if that's necessarily the most relevant cell moving for, but have been on the broadcast side, cable side, work for Snap. So got a lot of experience on the mobile and audience first side. And then I joined Roku about seven years ago. So I guess my mom was to brag about me and to give a plug for Roku. I now lead at ads manager sales, which are self-server platform for the largest streaming company in North America. So it's been quite an experience and really partnering with more performance oriented brands that are looking for real time results versus on the broadcast side back in the day. It was a ton of fun selling for NBC sports and quite an experience, but it was sort of like, hey, here's our 30 second spot, throw it up on sign of football, and we'll talk to you next week over drinks. So I've kind of experienced the full evolution of the media industry and hopefully my mom's proud of me with where I'm at right now at Roku. Yeah. And what, so like all, you mentioned you sold all different ad formats, maybe except print. So like, what were some of those formats? What were your favorites? What were your, what were the ones where you were like, wow, these are the most effective? Are these were actually the least effective? Well, what's some of the tea there? Because we never hear about the real stories of ad tech, you know? Oh, yeah. Well, we could, we could, it depends how long, like I said, how long the pod is or when we meet in person, maybe off the record. I started selling national radio and I was, I was hired as an account executive at 22, which is a bit rare in our industry. You typically come up through like the sales assistant and sales planner out. And I happened to be hired as an AE at a company called Westwood one that essentially had all of the best rights and media just happened to be on national radio. So things like Sunday night football, Monday night football, Super Bowl, Olympics, they would basically syndicate this programming across stations throughout the US. So you could be listening to, you know, video music awards content in the mid 2000s on your station in New York, just at the same time I would hear it in Chicago and someone else would hear it in LA. And it was truly a great experience because you're selling premium properties, but it's not necessarily the easiest sell in the world. And then from there, went to the big 10 network and I was telling your producer before you joined that I grew up in the area of big, big 10 fans, the opportunity to move to broadcast and cable and sponsorship sell sale side of it. And I think that's really where you learn like the value of passion and fandom. And while certainly performance metrics or certain standard media metrics like CPMs are important, you know, sometimes aligning your brand with a passion fan base can truly move the needle, which I think I witnessed there from there went to NBC sports, which is similar selling the best properties in the world, things like the Olympics. And remember being in a Super Bowl party and shutting up all my friends because I sold and add in the Super Bowl, which was like a sort of like a career milestone for me. So I would say that was an interesting experience because television's gotten so much more measurable in the last 10 years, whereas back then not to say if something worked or didn't work, because I don't want to spare as companies that I worked at previously. But I think, you know, as you've seen with the evolution in media, just the accountability towards every one of your dollars and even things like the Super Bowl is really felt now. And I don't think that was necessarily the case, you know, 10 or so years ago. So from there, I made a pretty hard pivot to Snapchat. And I know that you've written about snap in a favorable way, not only in LinkedIn, but also in your newsletter, I still think snap is a bit overlooked in terms of just the valuable audience that they have as well as just the captive audience. And so there, I definitely learned what ad tech men learn more about measurement, certainly a location-based app was really critical to really round out my experience. And also just the true performance nature of snap, which I think ultimately led me to Roku, which is sort of a combination of everything that I've done in the past. We used to say that, you know, Roku is the beauty of television and the brains of digital. And I still think that's the case today. Just the ability to tell your story on the television screen, but then also have the measurability and outcomes based oriented nature of what you want to get on search and social. So I won't say what did work in Denmark. I'll just say that I've been fortunate to sell just about everything. And even during my time at Roku, we had a DSP at one point. So just the Omni Channel nature of a DSP and the importance of data integrations. I've been crazy fortunate to work, not only for some great companies and work for some great leaders, but just sell a bunch of different things over the last 20 years or so. Amazing. And, you know, I also came up in the AdTech world, which is a funny parallel. And AdTech is what ended up driving me toward more e-commerce related stuff because I thought most of the ad tech you grew up in or not grew up in, but like you were working in was a lot more legit. The stuff I was doing was like, programmatic advertising at some AdTech company in San Francisco that I thought was like the next big tech company. And all their stuff was so fraudulent because it was like basic CPM arbitrage of units. And you know, like 120 day view through attribution windows where it's like somebody's going to buy the thing at some point. Right. Right. Attributions of hotel death basically. Yeah, exactly. But that's what ended up driving me toward more toward the paid social and search world, where even though it was this like black box, you know, there was more, it felt like there was more control over like what you were doing. But all this, all the media stuff you sold was like direct, it was all premium stuff. Like it was the inventory. It wasn't like any of the programmatic stuff, which is cool. But all that said, can you explain to the, to the common person in direct consumer who has no idea how some maybe exchanges work, DMPs work, DSPs, SSPs like what is a DSP? And how does that play in this world of ad tech? Because I think also the framing and the understanding of how DSPs play or what they even are will help people understand how, you know, Roku as a whole also works. Yeah. No, that's a, that's a great question. And I will say while I was fortunate to sell for some premium, you know, publishers and companies, I still felt like we were the underdog in a lot of those places like being at snap and, you know, Instagram release stories. You're like, wait a second, are we even going to have a business, you know, now that they're taking on, you know, our most important product? So I feel fortunate from that standpoint because I think having a bit of that under underdog mentality, which, which we also have at Roku, which I can touch a bit more upon. But I think what's amazing about sort of the ad space and ad tech world is the benefit of a DSP is just that omnichannel approach where, you know, if you see an ad on a television screen to sort of start the purchase journey, we know that ultimately like even clicking with your Roku remote or whatever your television operating system might be realistically, you're not going to make as many purchases purchases with your remote as you are with a mobile device. And so can you start that journey as a, as a brand to tell your story on the television screen, but then ultimately reach target those people via DSP to do things like manage holistic reach and frequency so that if I know that, you know, Nick might be a high value customer, help me find more Nick so that I can reach him was at scale, but also ensure I'm not reaching too many times because I think one of the most frustrating things we've all experienced not only as consumers, but also on the brand side is like if somebody already bought those shoes, why am I continuing to serve them as shoe ad? Like we experienced that a lot in our own personal day to day. So the ability to exclude audiences that have made purchases or more importantly finding additional customers and then balancing that frequency because the last thing we want is to continue getting the same ad over and over again, which especially in the streaming space has improved a ton over the years, just with frequency management and better targeting and other measurement capabilities. So the benefit of a DSP is also, I think what's really critical is telling your story in the right way based on the environment we're at showing up, how I want to see an ad or how I view an ad on a television screen versus a mobile device versus programmatic web really differs. [BLANK_AUDIO] going back to my experience as SNAP, like we introduced vertical video. Back then, vertical video was foreign to creative agencies or to brands. Now, obviously it's commonplace here, as we sit here 10 years now, from when SNAP and others were introduced. So I think that the DSP space is super interesting. I think it's going through quite a bit of challenges just based on some of the fees and the level of transparency. And so that being said, if you're a major brand that has the ability to spend hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising, it obviously might make sense to activate that way so that you're able to bring in your first party audience or find new customers. - Yeah, I feel like it's almost like plugging into ad networks or exchanges kind of like through an API, basically. - Yeah, and we're standing up a bunch of apps. - Yeah, for sure. We're standing up a bunch of API integrations to our self-serve platform via ads manager, really. Just making the inventory more accessible through the buying methods that customers are used to. And then also just the ability to integrate things like reporting and conversions APIs. That's honestly one of the things I'm most excited about is the Arteroku is that you talk so much on your podcast, which I love about building D to C brands and how you can do things like test different types of creative. I think historically, television's been really challenging to do so because you either buy on a direct IO with a firm commitment, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars. You're using a major creative agency that's producing 30-second spots or 60-second spots. And I think we're not the only ones there's others in the self-serve CTV space where the minimums and point of entry is rather inexpensive and you can actually iterate and test creatives. And I feel like that's one of the biggest benefits of searching social is that there's this theory with television that you have to produce these films. If you talk to these creative agencies, when at the end of the day they're 15, 30 or 60-second spots. I think one of the most exciting developments in CTV and we're at the forefront of that is that let me test my creative because there's no minimums to do things like self-serve platforms. Let me see, did these drive certain metrics like psych conversions or lead general, ultimately, Roas, where those metrics, previously in television, didn't really exist. It was primarily like third-party measurement tied to brand awareness and upper-final metrics. And now we have the ability to measure a last click. That's not to say that television's necessarily going to deliver a last click, but I think from a view through perspective, it's a really powerful medium. Yeah, and also, one thing people don't mention is when you have last click, you have a much better reference point to understand the view through conversions as well on top of that. And you can kind of assign a score there. On the API note, one random funny thought came to mind, are you plugged into the whole open-a-claw, clot-bott, molt-bott situation going on? Yeah, it's funny. I was-- I was-- let's see, you talk a little bit about that, too. We're not currently. But what's super-- I just mean you as like an individual. Oh, an individual? Yeah. I use claw-- I mean, I'll just say like there are definitely certain benefits. Like, I'm fortunate to lead a sales team here. And I'm definitely relying on AI as far as-- I want to develop team focus and team principles for 20, 26. And these are a few of the things that I have in mind. I think my mother would brag about my writing capabilities. But certainly, AI can do it a heck of a lot better than I can. Yeah. But I think there's a lot of things that obviously are going to drive efficiencies moving forward. And I'm not as quite as plugged in as I'd like. But I think our team is definitely utilizing a lot of AI tools that we've developed specifically at Roku to make our sales motion more efficient. Yeah. Well, one thing I'm hearing from brands that are-- I'm talking like $200, $300 million plus brands is they're now starting to develop their own AdOps platforms. They're just coding them with AI. And because you have API keys, like that's all these platforms need is you just plug in the APIs. Any of the platforms they're using to upload ads to, and they're able to rapidly generate creative, throw it out, test it, get the results, and see what they end up scaling or not scaling. But the entire process just fully automated. Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. I think there was obviously a lot of press around the Coca-Cola ad over the holidays that was produced by the consumer sentiment. That was weird, though. That was such a bad execution of AI. That was like AI four years ago. Right. But I think we actually work with a couple of companies that are modifying search and social creative for CTV, because we have a lot of customers that want to test the platform, get into television, find new audiences, ideally drive incrementality from their existing tactics. But again, so much of the barrier entry has been like, I don't have a 30 second spot to put on the television screen. And I think we're going to see more and more ads on our TV screens that look similar to what they look like in our TikTok feed. They just might be a little bit longer and talking to camera, text involved. And so again, we're not the only ones that I want to make this only about Roku, but I think giving brands the ability to buy on television that previously they weren't able to do in the past and creative has been a barrier entry. And to your point, not only ourselves, but we're leaning into AI companies and AI tools to democratize the actual creative generation process. And to your point, you should be able to do the same things you do on television that you do with those other platforms. Like, why are you just setting and forgetting a 30 second spot that your big creative agency develop when you can do something that's more real time that could potentially capitalize on creative that's benefiting you in other platforms. It does that work on TV or does it not work? And I have to test something else. So I think that's a really exciting development because previously, like I mentioned, you produce a couple spots and then you run it for the duration or campaign and then you're done with. - Really? Yeah, I think like when I talk to brands today, most of them are basically leveraging their e-commerce, photo shoot, video shoot, as their content to then go and craft a TV commercial. Like they'll grab a bunch of primary video and a bunch of B-roll. Maybe they merge some stills in. Now you can sort of animate stills as well. And then just adding text overlays with some music. You basically got a full commercial there with an voiceover too, basically a full commercial. And that's cool. I think your thing is cool too, where like you could put a social ad in the platform and then it spits out a TV ready ad as well. And it also like, it doesn't make it feel unnatural either. Like, when you see it on TV, it feels like a totally natural ad. There was these years where TV creative was very uniform. It was like, oh, if it's TV, it has to be this level. And then it started to, there was a lot of just experimenting. And now it's like you have random as seen on TV stuff. You have very polished stuff. You have only motion graphics, which at this point can just be done by a brand using AI. You've got like YouTubers jumping on and holding a camera in front of them talking to you. There's just all these different formats. Yeah, I think it's exciting too, because it should feel different. Like it's totally after 30 after 30 or 60 or 90s with all the farmer brands running. And so what's so powerful about the brands that you've worked with or the company that you've stood up is that some of these brands that we were on our feet or on our wrists or that were utilizing in our homes, like we had no idea what these companies were a few years ago. And then suddenly because of the success they found on, places like TikTok or Instagram or Ivan Pointback to like the all birds example, they built their business on Instagram. We're obviously hoping to do the same for television. I think it's going to be a little bit different, ultimately, because again, the odds of you buying up your parachutes on your television screen versus within your Instagram feed are probably not quite as high. But I think where we're seeing some success, which is interesting is more like high value purchases, like things that require a little bit more consideration, like booking a trip or a mattress or we're doing really well with furniture companies. But I think what's so powerful about search and social is that based on the level of data they have, it's like that shows up in your feed because they know you just want a ski trip, which is what happened to me recently. Yeah, no, 100%. I think like TV is always such a natural next step after they figure out what works on a social and search standpoint and like find that product market fit because that sales cycle is already extremely hard to track on search and social. Like you can't really get, you know, you have to basically just run incrementality level measurement to really understand like, is this channel even working? But with TV, it sort of helps accelerate that process. And I've even worked with a mattress company in the past where TV was something that did accelerate their path to purchase because it just legitimized the brand a lot more as well. How do you like, how do you kind of pitch TV to brands that are basically scaling on social and search? And you know, they're like, well, TV, you know, social and search is like, we see the dollars right there. Right. I'd love for your perspective as far as like, you know, what these brands think about television or even how you position it to them. You know, it's, to me, it's interesting because like I said, my career historically has been the inverse. It's like we're going to start with TV. We want to get our brand on the screen. We want to tell our story. Then we want to retarget them with search and social or, you know, it's a television for strategy. And I think as we all know at this point, you got to have an omni-channel strategy once you hit a certain threshold. And I would say for us, like the biggest value, not only for Roku, but also television in general, is that incremental? Like at some point, you're probably going to scale. or hit your scale on those search and social platforms or the auction could become more challenging in terms of finding your audience because there's density there or there's similar products that are trying to do the same thing that you are. And so I think a lot of the conversations that we're having is the ability to tell your story on the biggest screen of the home. You know, the mobile viewing experience is typically done one to one, whereas with televisions we know there's a lot of co-viewing because you're sitting around with multiple people. I think the benefit is that you're not getting lost in the algorithm of a YouTuber or a meta, for example, in a course those businesses are incredible. So no shade towards them, but I think the opportunity to really stand out in front of your audience and tell, you know, present your brand in a 30 second form, a matter of 15s or whatever you decide to do so versus, you know, if I don't show up in your feed, I might not find you. But I think the other benefit is that we do have the capabilities from a targeting perspective with Roku having 100 million active accounts and half of all streaming households utilizing Roku, we have such robust audiences that we can scale whether it's a local customer or, you know, we work with a company that wants to reach household income of 500K plus and we can scale that audience too. So I think a lot of it starts with incrementality and ultimately just some level of education that, you know, we're not gonna have the same, you know, CAC or CPA that you're gonna find on search and social. But if you look at the view through attribution or to your point earlier, how these platforms can play with one another, like your television experience can help boost ultimately, you know, your cost-pracquisition or a row as that you're finding through other channels. And so I think there's been a fair amount of education. And frankly, I find a ton of fun. Like I've been with Roku as I mentioned over seven years and so much of our role back then was just educating people on streaming. And now we're past that point because, you know, the amount of time spent streaming actually surpasses broadcast and cable. And if you stripped out sports, the numbers would be even that much more disproportionate towards streaming. And so I think the benefit we have is like people understand streaming, they do it themselves. Now it's okay, why is streaming valuable or CTV valuable to you in addition to the channels that you're accustomed to utilizing already? - Yeah, totally. You mentioned a couple interesting things like I would have never thought about. Like multiple people sitting around the screen versus one to one viewing. And there was something you mentioned right before that too. All just really, oh, getting lost in the algorithm. Another interesting one too. Shopify brands, this is the one. Roku Ads Manager lets you connect directly to your Shopify store and run streaming TV campaigns that can drive action, not just awareness. Roku's positioned this as a big differentiator. Shoppable TV through action ads and their Shopify integration. If you want top of funnel on the big screen with a proper path to purchase that advertising.roku.com/limitedsupply. - But yeah, for me, whenever I talk to brands about TV, like I was talking to you before, my background is mainly around customer acquisition. Of course customer retention and building brand, but mainly it's customer acquisition. And the way that I learned ad channels or like learn platforms or even, you know, how you do brand marketing has always kind of been through the lens of customer acquisition. And so when I first actually ran TV, I was probably nine years ago and it was at this brand called Hint Water. And we had to run it because we hit the point of diminishing returns on Facebook. Once we hit about a million bucks in spend per month, our our cat just basically only went up. So it was like, okay, well, we're exhausting, whatever we're reaching here. We need to go and sprinkle awareness in new places. And so one of the most efficient things we thought was, well, let's just go buy some remnant inventory and put up a commercial and see where that goes. And then if that shows like signs of working, then we can move it over and buy more premium placements. But like you said before, it was like all IOs and it was like a $60,000 IO, our first one, $100,000 to shoot the commercial. - Yeah. - And then it was like waiting, it was a waiting game for a while of just even realizing if it worked. But then we were running, we were like one of the first brands to ever use this partner called Measured. They're like an incrementality partner. - Yeah, for sure. - So it was right when Trevor was starting the company and I think we were like client one or two. But we immediately saw that our TV was very clearly helping our, not only our retail sales and like the retail buyers being extremely happy, but it was very clearly helping Facebook and Google. And so when I left, we were spending a million on digital and a million on basically TV podcast influencers. That was kind of like the top of funnel. And so for me, TV has always been basically like, oh, either if you're gonna leverage it as you're scaling like crazy, then it's the best way to basically like pave the road before you drive on it. So you have a smooth drive with your lower funnel channels. But TV also can be used as a lower funnel channel like how players like you can do retargeting for example. And make it more of like an aggressive play versus just a sprinkling up front. There's another brand I work with, Supplement Brand. They just had a big product launch. And so they spent, you know, they did a hundred K of a TV buy to basically kind of do the same thing, just sprinkle awareness. So in their case, it was less performance focus but we are now seeing those benefits on the Google and Facebook side as well. - Yeah, no, that's, I think you bring up such a good point that my career evolution is a good example. It's like, it used to be all direct IO, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy the media. Then it was hundreds of thousand dollars to produce a creative maybe get one or two spots. And then you're like, oh, let's see what our MMM results are. Like three months later. And on the sale side, that was frustrating too. Cause you're like, we want to know if it worked as well and to wait for some. And by the way, MMM has all other factors baked into it. Like if you're a CBG, like what if your packaging was poor? What if, you know, obviously there's much larger macro economic factors going on currently that could impact sales. And it's like, so you added my one channel and you're telling me it's my fault, that your product didn't sell, you know. I think now you mentioned measured, we work with other third party measurement companies like incremental and house house. I was screwed up. HA US house. I was screwed up. I don't know if it's house or house. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so not only third party providers that are measuring faster, but we can do it in the platform. So when you are in as manager, you get real time reporting, you through our conversions API, you can send us through conversion data. You mentioned audience targeting, like we're not the only ones. By the way, they do this stuff. So I want to make it clear it's not just about Roku. It's just the ability for brands that their fingertips to be able to understand, like, did you actually drive any sort of outcome for me or do I have to wait three months later for you to tell me or someone else to tell me something actually happened or not. So I love the analogy made about how television can kind of pave the road. And I think that's where, you know, having an omni channel approach is so important. And just also recognizing like what you want to get out of each channel. Like I think one of the, one of the difficulties we face, sometimes the Roku is letting perfect be the enemy of good. To your point, you could use television for upper funnel, could be for consideration, it could be for lower funnel. And I think the folks that are trying to do all the things, sometimes it's a little bit hard because then they might not have the right expectations or we might not even know the most appropriate way to set up their campaign. So I mean, your background is super interesting. And the fact that you, it seems like you played a lot in the sandbox with a lot of these platforms too. And I think that's where it's so much fun to be on the brand side or on the agency side is that it's no longer prohibitive to play around with TV. You know, you can come in and spend a couple grand and see if something worked for you or if that creative was favorable or to your point, did it actually boost the number of sales that I made through my channels on Instagram or TikTok, for example. Totally. Yeah. How, how do you see like, like, or actually a different question? Like why, like everybody watches streaming, right? Like why is it not a more obvious place to put ads? Like for example, I remember when I launched a sunscreen like eight years ago, my first thought was, oh, everybody has AirPods now. We should just, we should get on podcasts because that's where, that's basically where everybody's attention is. I feel like it's so obvious that streaming is like what, I mean, everybody spends at least what, one to four hours a day in front of their TV by the time they're just chilling in the evening. Yeah. So on in the background in some way, like I don't understand why TV is not a more obvious channel for spending. Hmm. Yeah. I would ask you too, because you work with a lot of D to C brands. I would say for us and in general, I mean, television obviously still comprises a huge share of spend, especially on linear if you think about, you know, the most recent Olympics and Super Bowl and some of those bigger events. I would say I think where Roku is benefit is that our videos are really performing. So if you look at about half of all programmatic CTV add calls come through a Roku TV or device. So just a scale that we have. Like even if you're watching a show on Hulu, we might not have been the ones that sold you that ad on Hulu, but about half the viewership for programming on Hulu or peacock or other streaming apps comes through a Roku television or device like where the third largest operating system in the US, which is wild. That's crazy. Behind iOS and Android. right and something. Some of it is like we're still telling that story, especially behind iOS and Android, not just in the operating systems. Yeah. Yeah, we're the number one key rating system by a lot, a lot. And I think some of it is like we need to do a better job telling that story. We're a little bit more humble, I think, is, yeah, no idea. That's a crazy stat. Crazy stat. It's awesome. But I also use it when I'm hiring people. And that's like I had Amazon and Sony and LG and Samsung. And obviously like these massive tech companies. And so I think you bring up a really good point like why streaming doesn't have as much. And I think it's just you're better to speak to this than I am. But just the ease of use with those self-server platforms. Like I could use my iPhone, I could shoot like a sunscreen bottle. I could throw it up on meta or YouTube. And it's like so easy to do. And I think that's where we're excited and bullish about our self-server platform. And again, there are others where like the ease of use of television now. And I think there is some adoption to that that needs to take place where it's yes, those other channels are important. But did you know like you could do this just as easily on television. You could bring in your first party data. Our ads manager tool looks like very similar to Facebook's ads manager and other ads manager tools where ideally the television buying and activation experience feels very similar to those search and social platforms. And so I think that's one of the primary reasons why we built our self-server platform is because we're doing well with the large enterprise brands and independent agencies that want to buy programmatically or through a direct IO. But there's this huge subset of customers in the SMB space that want to buy the same way that they've historically bought in on search and social. Yeah, what kind of brands do you see like come and find success? Yeah, that's a good question. It's actually a really cool case study primarily because it involved Jennifer Aniston. But we worked with Lola V for example, which is a big, you know, haircare D to C brand. And they were one of our first big D to C brands to work with us. And they primarily came to us, you know, originally for awareness purposes and why you historically utilize television. And that's a really good success story and it's a publicly facing case study that we utilize where, you know, they saw a 40% lift and overall sales during the campaign. And most importantly, they saw a 53% increase in new customers year over year. And so I think that's an area where so much of where television and CTV specifically can help is with incrementality. In a past life, I let our restaurants vertical and we had a partnership with the Food Delivery app and we found that through view through attribution about half the customers that ultimately went into that food delivery app to buy on behalf of this restaurant, where they're new or lapsed customers. And so you hit on the point earlier where, you know, you just started tapping out on the audience that you could reach on meta or you're in a tap on the audience, you could reach on a tech doc or more importantly, it's a different audience. And some of them might be in a different type of mindset when they're viewing television versus when they're scrolling through their phone, whether they're on, you know, on search or social platforms. Yeah. No, it makes total sense. Yeah, I feel like the, um, a lot of like repeat purchase products probably do extremely well on, uh, on the platform. Yeah, we're doing some, especially on the channel. Yeah, we're doing really well in the insurance space. I mean, insurance ads are all over TV. I think we all know the, the different characters from like flow from progressive. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think we're doing a lot of the same thing. I think we're doing a lot of the same thing. So, some of it for us candidly is that we just can scale audiences at a significant level. So, if you're in market for life insurance or car insurance, and a care open enrollment, we just have the ability with having 100 million active accounts and half of all streaming coming through us. It's just the ability to scale audiences. And most importantly, when people set up a Roku TV or device center, their first party data. So, we match it with third party data providers. You create a Roku logins. So, we're not subject to like password sharing. We target off the device. And so, it's really strong deterministic signals. And we can do it at scale. Which you got on other sides of our business for a really long time. And then through our partnerships with, you know, with the various channel partners we have on the platform, we get a portion of their inventory. And then we also have our own channel, the Roku channel, which if you were surprised that half of all streaming comes through a Roku TV or device, you'll probably be more surprised. That's a lot of my podcasts. So, thank you for, uh, for, uh, there. Uh, no, we have, uh, we have some of our own originally original programming. Then we have like hundreds of live channels where you can, you know, watch live television. It's like the old school. And then we have a lot of our own, uh, a lot of our own, uh, a lot of our own streaming. And then we have a lot of our own streaming. too. I noticed, I noticed, yeah, it's actually an interesting point. I'm going like the airport, like outdoor airports, they'll carry value or, you know, Uber introducing ads on tablets as part of their ride, you know, when you're in the back of a ride. So yeah, yeah, ads are everywhere. It's crazy. And I feel like, I don't know if you feel the same way, but now of course working in it, it's like, un-missible, like I, I feel like, well, it's really myself, voicemails, when I see things just like follow up on if I saw them. Yeah, what I find interesting is the, like ads, ads have always just been a part of culture, but like the amount of ads has gotten so much now that like the competition, like the standard of what is allowed as a good ad to be released into the wild has now gone up a lot, which I think is great because consumers only have finite attention. And, oh, there's only so many times, you know, you're going to be able to catch their attention. And so I think it's, overall, I think it's a good thing, but it totally makes like your job harder, my job harder. You know, everybody we work with is like working 10 times harder to get that split second of, oh, wait, I should, I should stare at this for another second and a half. Yeah, I mean, you brought up a good point. Like I'll get at that question, like who's your competition? I think we're all competing for everybody's attention, whether it's, you know, wherever the medium might be, it's like people have a finite amount of attention. And, or you hear the analogy of, you know, the attention span we have is less than a goldfish, which is, which is unfortunate, I guess. So it's like, you got a few seconds, how you get in front of that customer so that they're going to choose you versus choosing somebody else. Totally. Yeah, I blame Reel's TikTok and YouTube shorts for that. All right, Jeff, anything else we should wrap with here? I don't think, and I actually, can I ask you a question? Or is this a one? Yeah, sure. So what is a brand recently that's caught your attention? What's something that you thought was really impactful that you're now remembering when you're talking to someone like me? Ooh, man, I don't know if there's one specific brand. I like to, I like to, you know, my mom always told me when I was a kid, just take the good little nuggets from everything, don't try to like find one thing and try to make that one the thing. So for me, like, I find, I always find little things. I'm like, oh, the way that these guys just added, you know, a little, almost like a little ad unit in their cart to push me to subscribe versus buy one time. I really like that. I'm going to document that, save that. You know, the way that, oh, these guys are using influencers on a 24 hour cycle to do live stream. That's sick. I should take that, maybe suggest that to somebody. The way that these guys are running, you know, a TV meta and retail blitz is really interesting, you know, and how they tie together their TV messaging with like the landing pages you get when you're served a meta ad if you're, you know, still targeted there. So like, I feel like I find little tidbits like that, but, you know, a lot of the brands that I like to look at, you know, probably like, like Lolliviz, definitely one of them. They're kind of always on the forefront in terms of e-commerce. IMAs also a great one, parachute home. A lot of different influencer brands, whether it's like a lemmy or a POV beauty. But yeah, I just like to find, I tend to find like, or sometimes I'll track a growth person, you know, oh, the growth person from eight sleep left and went to this one, I should go start to see, what are they doing with their ads? What are they running on TV? What are they running for landers? So I usually try to do it that way. Yeah, that's cool. No, it's so funny you mentioned the growth piece because not to say that those roles like didn't exist, but you know, on the sale side, like in the past, I'd be like, who's the VP of advertising? Who's the CMO? Right. Yeah. That's like VP of ads doesn't exist anymore. No, no, it's like find me the growth person. And I think what's so cool about those roles is like, once you kind of have a playbook at one brand, it can transcend different types of brands. 'Cause I feel like historically on the brand side, it was like, if I'm a PNG, then maybe I go to general mills, and then maybe I go to another CPG. Now it's like, if I'm the GM of growth for a life insurance company, and I know life cycle marketing, and I understand Rhoaz and LTV, I could take that playbook and bring it to any other brand because I know the goals. I know the type of creative. I know how to optimize. And I think it's just super interesting and a huge deviation in terms of where our industry is going. Like they're running these brands like businesses. They're not running it as like, how am I going to show up in a third party measurement provider to get like an initial percentage or two of market share. And now it's like, can I help take this company public? And then I'm going to leave and go try to take another company public or get bought or whatever the case may be. Totally. Huge departure from where it used to be. Yeah, couldn't agree more. It's also, it's like I find it to be one of the hardest roles to find consistent talent that's like, can keep backfilling other roles. Yeah, like jumping to companies. But yeah, cool man. Well, thanks for coming on. This was awesome. Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a ton of fun and hope to meet you in person sometimes soon. Likewise, we'll do drinks in New York. Yeah, sounds great. Thanks again. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next time to cut through the noise on CPG retail and e-commerce. If you enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend? And be sure to subscribe wherever you listen. So you don't miss the next one. [MUSIC PLAYING]