S14 E6: The Five Questions Behind Every Great Landing Page

All right, welcome back to another episode of Limited Supply. I'm actually calling in from a remote location here today, which is why I've got a bit of a different background. But it is crunch time. We are right in the middle of our Q4 sprint. So I had to make sure that I got this one out. And today's episode is actually going to be a bit of a rant. It goes off of a newsletter. Two newsletters I wrote over the last two weeks. So if you're subscribed to the newsletter, which is at Nick.co/email, then you may be somewhat familiar. But I just want to add a little bit more color. And really the topic of today's podcast, as well as the last two newsletters, stemmed from a client I was working with, where there was just, there was a desire to build landing pages, which I think there's always a desire. Anybody who's running any sort of ad traffic or Facebook traffic is always trying to run traffic to pages that are optimized to handle that traffic. But there was just not any, you know, there was the desire to have it, but like the skill set and then the tools in order to make sure that these landing pages are being done properly with the right team and the right process and the right elements and the right modules and developed in the right way, and Q8 in the right way, and tested the right way, and all done in a timeline that's respectable and in a cost that's respectable, that wasn't there. And so it kind of inspired me to first just talk about why you need to have an efficient design process and then I wanna go into basically how do you, what is that design process or at least what's the one that I use? Because I may not know your business, but I can tell you what I've done and hopefully it'll help. So, you know, when I was at Hint Water, I started working there in 2017 and Hint is a beverage company. It's a flavored water company. And the thing in beverage that you're always told is that it's a game about shelf space. It's all about the real estate on the shelf. The more shelf space you have as a beverage brand, the more sales you get. And your goal as a beverage brand is to basically dominate the aisle. That's why if you go down grocery stores, you'll notice Coke, Pepsi and Curig, which also owns Dr. Pepper Snapple. Those are kind of the three big players in beverage on the snack side. You may have Frito Lay, which is Pepsi. They pretty much own the aisles and they dominate the aisles. They play chess, right? When you're a beverage brand, trying to get into a college football stadium, Coke or Pepsi already has that. You're a beverage brand trying to get into a baseball stadium, Coke or Pepsi already has it. You're trying to get into an airline, Coke or Pepsi already has it. If you've noticed, everywhere you go, it's Coke or Pepsi, right? You gotta in and out, it's Coke or Pepsi. If you go on an Delta Airlines, it's Coke or Pepsi. And the whole thing is this concept of like, well, in retail, it's called slotting in stadiums and airlines. It's probably some combination of, cutting big breaks for the actual costs and then paying some fee on top of it, sponsorship fee or whatever. But one thing I realized was when I got to hint at my job was basically director of performance marketing was that I was way better at getting people to the digital shelf than any of these legacy brands, right? And online, none of these guys were competing with me in a way that, well, one, they could keep up, but two, in a way that was just competent. All of these large kind of CPG players are entirely focused so much on digital content or digital media, but they're not focused on driving any sort of digital sales. And because they're not driving any sort of digital sales, and because their digital stuff is usually managed by agencies and contractors, they have no real sort of feedback loop or practice that actually shows them what's working and what's not working. And so the biggest opportunity for me as a marketing person, you know, 20 years old that a beverage company was to crack the code online and try to figure out how do we build feedback loops? How do we test faster? How do we gather data? How do we test different angles and messaging and creative? You know, when I would look at what these big guys are doing, I would think, wow, these guys are basically launching one campaign a quarter maybe or one campaign for a big moment. And then they're letting it rip and then they're testing and then they're just basically analyzing what happened. Whereas like I can go into Facebook, put 96 pieces of creative using Add Espresso into an Add Set, run it and within 5 grand of spend, I can get a pretty good idea of exactly which creative is actually working and which ones are not. Now keep in mind this is 2017. So much different than what you might be doing today on Facebook. The best part is that I could launch a test. And within a week, I would know the messaging that works, the type of creative that works, the landing page that works, the offer that works. And within basically two to three weeks, I've already run multiple tests and I already know which one is working. I know that each test leads to new learnings and faster learnings gives me an edge in the market where consumer attention is gold, right? The website is the storefront and I can redesign that storefront however I want. But the faster that I decide to experiment and the faster I discover what resonates with customers and what doesn't, I'm gonna validate that speed is the strategy for me. And it was so obvious, I remember going to BevNet in 2018 and hearing from somebody that hint was one of the most advanced direct consumer businesses that existed, this was literally a year after. But it was all just about testing and learning and optimizing and not being romantic about what didn't work or what did work but rather just using the data to go forward. The other thing was every time we would design stuff we would actually not just design them by graphic designers. We would be designing them with designers who understood performance marketing and optimization and UX and visual identity and how to handle cold traffic versus warm traffic. What are the types of things you have to educate them on? Whether it's different benefits or value props or the hierarchy of those things in that order so that you don't confuse somebody. But most designers are not conversion focused designers and most brands who hire designers to help them with web projects are not necessarily hiring conversion focus designers to do those because they're not as easy or as accessible. When I was building Sharma Brands, which we now sold to Lunar Solar, the one of the hardest roles to hire was really good, talented web designers who understood everything from design and messaging and tone of voice and UX but also how to think about conversion and customer journey. One of the things that I realized when I was working with this brand that I mentioned at the beginning last week or two weeks ago was that when we had hired the designer, it was more of like a software UI designer for a B2B company. It was not necessarily a designer that understood how to handle a website, let alone a consumer brand website, let alone a consumer brand website that is a nine-figure brand, let alone one that is also selling direct consumer online. So all of those things put together, you sort of need to have a conversion focus design, sorry, conversion focus designer because no matter how much input you can give or things you can change on top, if your fundamentals don't have that kind of DNA or that thinking in it as it's being designed, it becomes very obvious to the end consumer who's basically shopping that page. Now, the other thing kind of leading off of that is your designers, they need to have an understanding of how to read data and how to understand what is essentially going on as a result of the work that they're creating. So in this case, we're talking about designers but I actually think this applies to all creators. So whether you're a copywriter, whether you're a graphic designer working on static ads, whether you're a video editor making videos, whether you're a content creator internally or externally, you should have analytics to what the creative is that you're putting out. When you can see the feedback, when the creators can see the feedback, they're gonna digest it differently than your analytical brain or your A/B testing brain or your Excel brain might. And they're gonna pick up on things that can actually make this much better. In addition to that, if you can ever give them things like, for example, hey, this landing page drove a bunch of questions. We should take these questions in, internalize them, answer them and then put them in the content so they get answered before somebody has them. Any of that kind of stuff always helps. Now, the last thing before I get into kind of my process is I just wanna go through the five question framework which I've always used. And this is basically the five questions I always ask and essentially the way I like to do it is basically answer these five questions over and over and over again. So any good landing page, I always think of a good landing page as like a red carpet where you're walking and Kim Kardashian down the aisle or down the carpet and you near her are the assistant. So it's on you to have all the answers at all times, you know, basically ready to go, right? So that said, the way I like to build, the easiest way to build landing pages for me is just answer these five questions in as many different ways and modules and content, displays and graphics as possible. The first one is what is the product? So. Don't assume your visitor magically knows what it is. You have to tell them very clearly and very simply what you're selling because a confused person will never convert. The next one is, why does this exist? What gap in the market or customer pain point are you addressing here? You want to basically answer, what does this brand deserve to exist at every touch point? How will it benefit me? This is probably the most important one. This essentially tells your customer, this is exactly how you're going to benefit when you consume or use or take or buy this product. It's not value props. It's not that this is a non-stick pan. It's not that this is teflon fee free. It's that you can use less oil when you cook because it's non-stick. It's that it's easier to clean and put away because it's non-stick. Understand how it's benefits versus value props. Fourth one is, how fast do I get it? A lot of performance marketing brands do this one well. It basically says how many days tell the order ships? One is the order going to be delivered. There's apps pretty damn quick that exists that help you do this. But sometimes just as simple as adding that messaging near your CTA, your add to cart button or your buy now button or even in the checkout itself about when the order shipping, when it's going to arrive. I always have this thing I like to do too, where in my shipping rules, shipping rules are just named by whoever your admin or your office person. You can just change that to be like VIP shipping and parentheses, ships in 24 hours. That's going to get a higher conversion, obviously. The last one is, why should I trust this brand? How do I know that this brand is legit and that this product is going to live up to its promises? This is where all of the social proof comes in, whether it's customer reviews, testimonials, press logos, endorsements, trust badges, award certifications, etc. These are all kind of the thoughts that come to mind as I get toward the process of how I build landing pages. But one quick thought before we get into that is that your design process as a brand in order to build landing pages quickly is a competitive mode. If you look at some of the fastest scaling supplement brands, whether it's Groons or Create or Armra or Cowboy Colostrum, whatever it is, I am eight. All these brands are examples of companies that have been built off the back of Facebook ads and how well by perfecting their messaging, their angle, which could be seen as the same thing, they're creative and then they're offer. When I say offer, I essentially mean anything that is basically in a post-add click experience. When you click the ad, you get to the website, you get to a landing page. All these brands I just mentioned are all running landing pages and multiple variations of landing pages. You'll see that they have some similarities. If you go to Groons or Armra, you'll see they have some similarities. For the most part, they're pretty much all running their own landing pages. I am eight. When we built that site, we built it as a conversion machine. So majority of that traffic actually goes to PDPs and converts pretty well. But all that said, the ability for you to build really high quality landing pages in short amounts of time and to have an idea Monday and get something live by Thursday or Friday is going to be a moat. It's the reason why some of these brands have been able to become category leaders within a year or two. That's because they're so fast at doing it. They're so good at doing it. They've got a process down and it allows them to get ahead. Okay. So I'm going to talk about kind of a few ingredients that I like and then we'll get into the actual process. So the first thing that I like to make sure I talk about is the strategy. Now, strategy in your landing page is probably the most important piece of it, regardless of how beautiful your pages, maybe how fancy your copy sounds, how nice your icons are. If you don't have a strategy, specifically around your content, your offer and who's coming to there that you're going to help convert, it's just not going to work. And a great example of this is I'm not sure if you've heard of comfort clothing. I had Hudson on the podcast a couple weeks ago. If you go to comfort, look, their website is not a crazy, fancy Shopify site, right? It's actually a super basic Shopify site. You're not going to find it on any sort of design award website, but it does do probably $100 million a month or close to it in revenue. And why? Well, because the strategy is very clear. The UX is very clear. The value props of what Hudson is selling and the benefits of his products and the reviews, the social proof, everything I mentioned before is so clear. It's proof that you don't need fancy UI if you've got everything else, but you've got UX and you've got UI. Your UX is your user experience, right? Your UX is the convenience for the user. It's how easy is it to understand what you're selling. It's how easy is it to add products to the cart. Does anybody get frustrated? Your UI is how pretty does it look. So you might have, for example, you might have, well, I'm trying to think of an example of UX UI, like cutting through a garden with a short path versus a long path that's much prettier. And maybe that helped illustrate it in your head. I don't know how else to describe it, but UX is basically for your customer, right? UI is for yourself. So always start with UX and focus on UX. You want to make sure that the flow, the messaging hierarchy, the copy, all of that is locked in. And, well, I guess we can just get into the process. But typically, how I like to start is I like to put a something at the top, right? Either some sort of a customer persona and a primary benefit or pain point you're going to speak to. So let's say we're picking a, let's do an example together. We're going to, we're going to write at the very top. The angle is going to be better sleep. And the audience is going to be women going through menopause, right? So what I'm going to do is I'm going to write this at the top. And this is going to help me, I like to do this when I write to, I like to put sort of a reaction at the top because I like to make sure that everything ladders back up to that. So that's what we're going to do here. We're going to put the demographic at the top. So menopausal women and then the benefit that we want to focus on, which is better sleep. Now what this will allow me to do is as I go through the process, as long as that's on the top, I'm going to make sure that everything I'm putting down on paper or in a doc or an a figmophile ladders back up to that. So the first step I do is I like to open up blank Google doc and I don't know why I like Google doc over word doc, but I got both I end up using Google docs and I put those things at the top and then I like to just dump everything. So you don't have to organize anything. You don't have to organize, you know, the hierarchy of the messaging, just anything that comes to mind, any ideas, things about why you're better than competitors, you know, customers, questions that customers ask you, any sort of catchy headlines you hear, any sort of customer pain points, questions you find often in your Instagram DMs or customer service DMs, you know, product benefits features, fun stories that, you know, customers have interacted with, anything that comes to mind, throw it down on paper. And this also includes like testimonials, you know, if you have any visuals, you want to include whether it's a chart, a graphic, you know, how it shows how the product gets absorbed into your bloodstream, whatever it may be, throw all of it on there, does not have to be organized and, and then just keep adding to it. So try to think about, okay, what is it that's going to get mental possible men to want better sleep? You know, is there any research we can go out and search for a grab pull back in and dump in the doc? Now, this doc should take probably an hour, hour and a half. You, if you finish it within 15, 20 minutes, you're not looking hard enough. It's not full enough. You want this doc to be like three to five pages long and you just want to have a ton of shit in there. The idea is that it gives, it, it, it just gives you more to play with and you'll see why in the next step. So the next step is to then outline the sections that you want within your landing page and then slowly start to organize the brain dump into the section. So again, you're not thinking about good design or how it's going to be laid out or how it's going to fit, right? That tends to happen when you start building a landing page in Figma. When you started in Figma, you're immediately thinking both all three things, research, organization and how it snaps into the design. But the truth is you're not going to get your best content that way because you're not going to allow yourself to even put it down on paper to then filter it. You're just going to try to filter it in a quick way that you can do in your head, which is just not going to be as, it's just not going to be as good. So your typical flow or your section outline might look like, you know, a hero section, you have a problem section, a solution section, you have a benefit section, you got social proof, you got a shop section, compares and chart. You know, FAQs, you have a founder story, you've got press testimonials, you got UGC, you've got research, you've got, you know, maybe another section on customer stories, maybe a section on giving back where your ingredients are sourced from. So you've got all these sections, right? And you can then organize all the things that you can do. all the content across five pages into these sections. You might find that you have too much stuff in one section allows you to split it up and tell us the same thing in a different way, right? If we go back to those five questions, the whole goal is to basically take these five questions, just answer them over and over and over again. So if you're duplicatively, duplicatively, big word, answering, then that just means that you're doing it right, you're not doing anything wrong by saying the same thing in a different, slightly different way again and again and again. Now, once you have these sections kind of built out, just again, not designing anything, just hero and then you just paste all your stuff for the hero there, right? Maybe some social proof, an image you want to use, whatever it is, a catchy headline. Once you have all that, then go in and open up Figma. And what I like to do is I like to take, I create a new Figma blank canvas. I take all the copy that I have written, Command A, so select it all, copy it, throw it into Figma, just paste it. You'll see it'll just paste in like a tall rectangle. And from there, I like to create a mobile screen frame. So you press F or click frame, and then you look for like an iPhone 16, right? Something that's a regular mobile optimized size. Now, once you have that, I put two of those next to each other. So two screen sizes next to each other. The reason is I just use the left one, just to understand what is above the fold. And then the right side is actually where I'm putting the design in. So now on the right side, right? I know that the, on the right side, one, I'll first extend that all the way down. So now I've got a short iPhone screen, and then an iPhone screen that has the width of an iPhone, but I just pulled the length all the way down, so I could build a long landing page. And in the hero section is, you know, I know what's above the fold, I know what's below the fold, so I can kind of arrange that properly. But this is essentially where you now start to organize all the content you have on the left side and put it in the right side. And if you've got a swipe file of landing pages that you like or that you've saved, you know, I recommend you always, as you're on Instagram, I mean, you're on Instagram all the time. Click those ads, screenshot landing pages, screen recording, save them to a swipe file, send them to your buddy on DM, so you just have a place where they're all there. But this is essentially where you, you know, kind of, you can put your swipe files on the side if you want. Otherwise, just take your content and start arranging it. Every step should be arranged there. This ideally, too, is still being done by somebody who knows the brand and the product really well. You don't want this part to be done by somebody. Well, I guess you can if they understand conversion design, but ideally, in a perfect world, this kind of happens internally just because you know exactly what's being, what, how people talk about the brand, what pain points they have, what they need to hear in order to be sold, et cetera. Now, here, you're basically combining marketing strategy with everything you know about the customer and the angle, plus all the raw content you gathered and molding it into a magical flow. Right? So this, this is something where it's on you to take everything and sort of put it in. And you don't have to worry about a page being too long. I think my philosophy is always that if somebody's ready to go, they'll just click or they'll leave. And if they're not, they'll just keep scrolling. So as much as you want to put it into there, I think it's fine. You want to also make sure that everything is then laddering back up to that demographic and that angle. So is the comparison chart laddering back up to Manipausal Woman, is the FAQ laddering back up to better sleep, is the shop section, you know, promoting get better sleep, is there a senior citizen discount maybe? So whatever it may be, right? You want to make sure everything on the page is basically laddering back up to that. Now, once this is done, this is where it should go right back to review. So whoever, you know, ideally from the brand is basically reviewing the copy, the layout, the functionality, making sure that from a messaging standpoint and offer standpoint, everything is within brand guidelines. Nothing is sort of out of whack. From there, you go into back in the Figma with a designer and you essentially add all your brand colors, your visual identity, brand layout, all that stuff. So iconography, illustrations, graphics, colors, fonts, you know, the whole nine, your lifestyle imagery, studio imagery, all that stuff comes in in the next phase, which I call the UI phase. From here, it basically looks like a very polished, on-brand webpage, but still very much focused about conversion. And the key here is to maintain the integrity of the wireframe, but also making it very aesthetically pleasing and on-brand. So by the end of this step, you wanna have a dev-ready design file of the landing page inside Figma. And what does it mean to be dev-ready? Well, it just means that if there are any sort of developer notes that need to be included there, you know, hey, this rotates, this side scrolls, this scrolls slow or fast, you know, this is supposed to happen when you click this, all those need to be in there, usually like little sticky notes around Figma. And then the last piece, or I should say, the second-the-last piece is now developing this inside Shopify. Now, there are a billion landing page builders out there. I, for the longest time, I was a huge proponent of just using un-bounce. I still think if you have no other choice, can't develop in Shopify, un-bounce is still a great tool, especially if you're starting out, everything is drag and drop. That said, subdomains. So for example, let me explain, when you use your Shopify site, right? You're using your own domain and Shopify is tracking everything. When you use a subdomain like shop.orgainprotein.com, you're basically using an un-bounce or one of these other third-party tools. And they're then hosting your Facebook Pixel, your Google Pixel, your, you know, all your pixels are then hosted there. And what it does is when your user goes from landing page to Shopify checkout or landing page to Shopify PDP, it causes these crazy issues with tracking users. Well, whether it's from an analytics standpoint, like for example, anybody who uses subdomains to track, to do landing pages has a messed up conversion rate inside their Shopify, inside their Shopify analytics. And I also know there's a brand that does about, you know, quarter billion dollars a year in revenue. They were doing this with a partner. And up until recently, they're a CAC 8x and they are seeing triple and quadruple counted events inside Facebook because that's what's being reported back. It's just messy data that gets reported back to Facebook. Not only Facebook, of course, Clavio, all your other ad platforms, TikTok, Snap, Pinterest, Google, YouTube, et cetera. And it messes everything up because as you know, these platforms, the way they work is they ingest data, they analyze it, they use their own things, they make decisions off of that. So if you're feeding it wrong data, it's going to mess it up completely. It's like why you never want to send, you know, you don't want to send 100,000 shitty site visitors to somebody's site. It's going to completely ruin everything that they're doing from an ad standpoint. Now, once your page is developed inside Shopify, and the reason I like to develop it inside Shopify is once you've got it developed, all your modules, as long as it's developed properly, all your modules can now be applied and copy-pasted and modified. So if you've got a comparison chart that works really good, you can put that on every single PDP and change the text, you know, within two seconds from the iPhone app on your phone. If you've got a really good hero section that you now want to duplicate this page and test it with four different products, you can easily do that because it's now a template. So the reason that you want to put it in Shopify is one, not only is everything easy to duplicate, edit, and track, but two, it's just congruent, consistent, it's easier for the team. And you don't have to worry about issues or glitches or friction, whether it's for a user or for yourself as you're consolidating and tracking everything. Now, the next step is just basically to QA everything. So obviously make sure you're going through everything, check the coupon codes, check screen size on different devices, check with different internet connections, you'd be shocked how many times site speed is the culprit for pages not working well. And then you go up and you launch it. So you launch it, you monitor it, and you optimize it. None of these pages should-- or I should say, some of these pages will crush immediately because if you're driving landing page traffic versus PDP or home page traffic, it's obviously going to do better. But that doesn't mean that that is the final result. So if you're normally converting it 2% on your website and your landing page gets you to 3 1/2 or 4 or 5 or 6, doesn't mean you can't get to 8. I've had landing pages that get to 12% that started at 6%. And we thought 6 was awesome, but we just kept thinking, OK, let's just watch user session recordings, heat maps, et cetera. And let's just continue to optimize and just continue making it better. OK, that's essentially my process for building a landing page. I think landing pages are extremely important. And if you're only sending traffic to your site, then it better look like IMAIT, where it's an entirely conversion optimized website. Most websites don't look like that. Most websites tend to be Shopify, templated themes, and very similar to email flows or automated flows. A lot of Shopify websites get set up once. and then not really optimized for a long time until it's now a new website project, or there's a new product going live. So all that said, that's my process to build landing pages. That's the reason I think it's so important to build landing pages. Remember some of the biggest brands in consumer that exist today were only started a couple of years ago and basically did this, like this was their playbook. Good product, good messaging, good angles, good landing pages and good offers. And they were just very romantic about testing. They were not romantic about how something looked or how it felt or whatever it was. They were just romantic about we need to constantly test, optimize, learn and eventually win. That is today's episode of limited supply. I hope it was fun to listen to wherever you were at, whether you're dropping your kids off in the morning, you're on a run or you're at the gym. If you've got any questions on landing pages, if you want me to make some landing pages for you, should be a DM or should me an email, you can also fill out our contact form on thesharmabrands.com website. In any case, have a great rest of your week and I'll see you next week. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next time to cut through the noise on CPG, retail and e-commerce. If you enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss the next one. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)