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[email protected]. That's r-u-g-g-a-b-l-e.com and use a code D-A-T-E-A-B-L-E at check out. The datable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington Post calls one of the top 10 podcasts about love and sex. On each episode we'll talk to real daters about everything from sex parties to sex routes. Date fails to diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host, U-A-Sue. Former dating coach turned dating sociologist. You also hear from my co-host and producer Julie Kraft chick as we explore this crazy datable world. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of datable. A show all about modern dating where we eagerly dig into the wise of people's behavior and this episode in particular is really digging into the wise of people's behavior and how you can make that connection through hacking people's behavior and understanding why people do the things they do and why people say what they say. I love it. Our guest today is Vanessa Van Edwards who is someone that U-A-I-I-Wanted for a very long time and she's like the ultimate like her whole her whole existence and company and books and everything she's put out is all about the science of people and her book is actually called Captain. We have it right there. I'm holding it out. I'm holding it out. This is how long we've been trying to get her on the podcast. I have the paper about me. Not even the Kindle. So it's the science of succeeding with people and all the stuff that we're going to talk about on this whole episode, the intro, the episode, all of it. Like I love this stuff because it gives you kind of like those inner working psyche that like people are studying that the average person may be totally oblivious to. In knowledge is power and this type of stuff like helps in all facets of life. It's not just dating. And I have a confession. I'm so glad we had her on the show before I went to this wedding over the weekend. It is my first kind of large-scale social event. Yeah. In the last over a year and a half I guess and it was with a bunch of people I didn't know. I close friend from whom I met in Beijing. Invited me but her friends are all friends that I've never met because they're all her new friends since moving back to the States. So I really had to come out of my introverted shell for this event and I didn't realize how much energy it took to just strike up a conversation in line, introduce myself to the people on my table. I underestimated how much effort I needed to make and I'm so glad that I had her voice in my head for a lot of those conversations because I was like okay for this one I don't need to say anything. I just need to show interest. Just not show good posture and show that I'm interested in this conversation that's all I need to do. But it takes a lot out of you after a year of cocooning yourself and not meeting new people. I'm really glad you brought that up because I think even the people that are like the most extroverted we've been in like a weird social environment this last year where we're out of practice. I think if you've been in the Saudi war you've at least got it's a virtual practice but I think there is a definite real transition happening and I feel like this weekend okay so we are releasing this episode we're doing the intro like a couple days earlier. June 15th is like the big California reopening day and I saw the best TikTok that was like so should we take this day off? Like is this gonna just like is this gonna be a new wall? I'm like what's happening? Yeah but I feel like this weekend I know it was like a little before the actual official opening but I think everyone has it in their head like okay it's happening. Yeah. I feel like this weekend went from like zero to one eighty four maybe I was dying on Sunday I was so freaking tired like exhausted I think just everyone wanted to do stuff I would say maybe it wasn't zero to one eighty but it was like thirty to one eighty because I feel like even social activities I've been at I've been like let's go to outdoor dining like let's you know very chill and this weekend like I went to a house party was like about fifty people and it was it was super fun but it was like it was primarily outside still which I am still loving like I'm just glad that like San Francisco I mean I think all of California is keeping this but like all the outdoor dining and all the stuff is staying but I will give a shout out to Zach whose party it was along friend of ours and his girlfriend who I bet who is like I recognize your voice you can listen to the plot no no no his his girlfriend Zach's girlfriend yeah yeah he does yes I'm giving him her shadow because she's like I recognize your voice because we listen to the podcast together and I was like I love that like the two of them have listened to episodes before when you said oh when you said the girlfriend I thought you meant the actual birthday boys girlfriend oh yeah yes sorry we have like actually there's a lot of connections to this group and the podcast we had the birthday boy he was um our when we did a live show way back to the day he was our dateable DJ so DJ Riles DJ Riles so one day when you a and I make it big we're bringing you a log of the roach 50 people is very daunting my flight was completely full I could only sit in the middle see the airport was completely full that was a lot for me but I think maybe if you saw 50 people that you kind of knew or or familiar I think that would make me feel better but 50 new people I don't the thought of that just they were definitely people at it no I don't know I don't feel like my social like my social skills I don't feel or that rusty but I have felt like this is always something that's been more natural to me there's a lot of things that aren't natural to me I'm not like saying above other stuff but like socializing is always like platonic socializing is always converted actually to me not for me not for me super awkward it was super fun I'm glad that like I was able to socialize it didn't feel like I mean San Francisco is actually one of see San Francisco and Seattle are the first two cities to reach like herd immunity in terms of like number of Seattle to I mean uh San Francisco I knew yeah San Francisco is at like 80% or something so yeah I mean I feel like it was kind of like one of those things that I'm like I'm just gonna run with it I was honestly it was outside like 90% of the night anyways so I really didn't feel like that bad and he had a bad like a big place so it's very spread out it was funny though because I feel like people there like no me like no that I do the podcast and people would be like oh come meet Julie she has this sex podcast or another person be like come meet Julie she has this romance podcast so like it all is like how you interpret it which I was like this is actually kind of funny hearing like how people explain it you know a sex podcast we've heard that a few different times I kind of wish we had a sex podcast I know I was like this isn't really how I describe it but it was just funny like the extremes like I mean it was all in the same genre of course but it like right basically like what is it that's interesting to that specific person exactly exactly and that's how they package it in their head that's good to know though that because I was in Seattle so it's good to know that we were both in very safe cities I do love hearing couples that listen together though that made me so happy like I obviously like meeting people that like me because of the podcast already so that's always a nice thing I was like I really like your girlfriend you know obviously you're like I listen to the podcast but I always like when couples listen together because I think it's like a really good way to bring up topics that you may not ever talk about so true I find I absolutely realize
that and I think a lot of couples think that this podcast because it says "datable" that's not for them but don't forget you never stop dating even when you're in a relationship and this weekend I had the pleasure of meeting my boyfriend's cousin who also listens to the podcast and it's a different perspective when he's related to the boyfriend of the host. The boyfriend of the host who talks about the boyfriend every once in a while so he has like a more that relative perspective on it like kind of like when you're a relative's listening. So we kind of forget that there are all kinds of people listening all the time and we it's okay it's not going to censor us any anyway but it is always a little bit surprising when someone you don't expect listening totally like last week what I'm like I just talked about pegging for like an hour. I'm like who knows who's listening right now I think you just have to get over it like I've learned that I'm just like I need to just get over it and not even like think about it. Yeah I mean at the end of the day it's like we're creating this for ourselves and we love this content and we love the people who listen to this content so we just assume anybody who's listening is supporting whatever topics where we're talking about everything everything is on the table and nothing is off limits. There was something that was interesting at this wedding that I wanted to text you about Julie but I was in middle of a wedding so it would have been really rude. I was during the speeches and the sister of the bride who was also the matron of honor gave the speech and she says something that is still making me think and I love to get your thoughts on it and I love to get all of you listening right now your thoughts on this too so DMS tell us your thoughts. She says something along the lines of this she's been married twice and she said one thing I've learned from my marriages is that you always put your partner first and above everybody else above your friends above your co-workers above your work above your parents above your family above everyone else and it kind of the room got quiet and her words simmered a little bit and I could engage the reaction from the other people in the room but for me I had to think about that a little bit. I understand prioritizing your partner but do you believe that for a relationship to be healthy you prioritize your partner above family and friends? I was not expecting this deep philosophical question you a but this is that's so fascinating it's it's funny that like the rubed silent on it because I see what she's saying on some capacity like I feel like if something made my partner uncomfortable I'd want to prioritize that above everything else but where I'm torn is that I think you do need balance too in to be a good partner and to like not get resentful of each other and I don't know if it's maybe it's still putting them above that to some degree but I don't think it can like occupy like a hundred percent of your time because like I just don't think people would grow as individuals either like you would just like morph into the same person I don't know it's like how do you define priority that's what I think maybe is the question and you like it I'm deflecting the question with another question but I think like priority to me maybe um I don't know it's like I on one side I agree with her and then on another side I want to say like there was this graphic ones that circulated in our Facebook group that was like my partner's a priority but also my friends and family are a priority and career and all this stuff and it's not like they're not a priority because something else is a priority so I didn't answer I didn't answer because I honestly just don't know I'm still wrapping my head around it yeah and I wasn't expecting a definitive answer from you because I also had these internal conflicts of thinking if I'm ever put in a position where I had to prioritize my family or my partner then I'm in the wrong relationship I kind of felt that way I never I hope I'm never put into that position but I can also see a scenario something as rudimentary as birthdays let's say my father's birthday fell on the same day as my partner's birthday yeah what do you do what do you do who do you celebrate with and I hope in an ideal world we can celebrate together but what if both people wanted you to prioritize their birthdays what do you do and I think about that again I hope nobody ever puts me into in that position but if you are put into that position does that mean the relationship is not head in the right direction or is it true I love to hear my from my friends who've been married for a long time is it true you just constantly prioritize your partner and that's what makes a long lasting relationship I will love to hear more thoughts on it I've also thought about this with like location like I've had friends have had to move because of partners like they've had no like yes the choice was like break up or be with this person and move like that was the choice yeah and they chose to be with this person and move to somewhere that was less desirable for them and they openly was like I would never move here to zillion years if it wasn't for my partner yeah and I've been torn with that too because I'm like on one side I want to believe that like my partner would make me happy no matter where I was but then I think about like I get just simple pleasure of just being able to like walk to a coffee shop yeah like if I was in some random suburban town where I couldn't do that like I don't I feel like on a day to day I wouldn't be happy and I would like build resentment up so I don't know it's like such a hard one but I would also never want to say like I wouldn't do it because I think like the right person comes along like you don't want to just like the row that away either so I'd be open to it but it is one of those things like I think until you're in these situations it's almost hard to like say how you'd react to it and there's a lot of factors right yeah and even though you know I've been with my partner for three years now it's been a while we're not married so I feel like I don't in some fucked up way I don't really feel like I need to prioritize our relationship before my family let's say because I feel like I don't know maybe once you establish yourself as a family once you have kids then you become a family cohort yourself but until then I don't it's not really family to me yet maybe that's really fucked up to think about no it's just you're more traditional in placing that value on marriage or starting a family yeah like to me that's just that's what a family is so and maybe I need to rethink all of this and just think about like what does this prioritization mean because I think it does happen in relationships and it is a point of contention for a lot of marriages because people don't know how they're prioritizing their partners so again we love to hear from our listeners what do you all think have you had this experience and what is your advice to let's say newlyweds do you constantly prioritize your partner above everybody else so I'm dying to know okay how did the speech like end where people like yes I get it or was it still that like kind of dead air oh man it was a little bit awkward I'm not gonna lie she had a lens it was a beautiful speech and she had some really funny moments about her sister but in the end she said let's raise a glass for the couple and we raise and we cheer but that was it like silence you know so I do wonder because we were also sitting at a table with across from this couple who had been married before and we're dating each other I saw one of them kind of nodding and the other one kind of like I don't know so I think everyone's reflecting that just their own relationships it kind of ended not that I would say it was a bad speech it was it was a thought provoking speech and I think a lot of people went home probably had conversations yeah I mean kind of spoiler alert but our season finale which is next week yeah I cannot believe that we're already done with season 12 how is that possible I don't know but we have John Kim aka the angry therapist and his whole book that we talk about is called single on purpose and it's basically even if you're in a relationship his whole thing is like you need to prioritize yourself like your sense of self that's where I struggle with this because it's like on some side I see prioritizing a relationship but I think if that's all you prioritize that becomes unhealthy too like there's there's a balance with all of it and there's so many cultural nuances to this I know my Asian brothers and sisters would totally know what I'm talking about when I say there's so much guilt that comes with prioritizing myself above my family there's so much guilt saying I'm prioritizing my partner above my family so I don't maybe it's just so deeply ingrained in me to think I would never depriortize my family under anybody else I just I just cannot imagine that but I've also seen a lot of my family friends and my relatives their marriages fail because they prioritize their family and totally their their partner fell by the wayside and became became something of a consequence versus someone that you really covet and I and I've seen this and Julie you and I have talked about this there's so many Chinese couples I know who who are married but lived long distance so they don't live in the same city together and they do this for years sometimes decades because they're prioritizing the family they're prioritizing making money they're prioritizing taking care of their their parents
What happens to that relationship, right? So I think it's just very nuanced. I don't think it's like a one size fits all in any way. I agree though, the risk of letting someone go to the wayside is very real because if you're so only self-focused or you're only like hanging out with your friends or family and like excluding your partner, that's gonna be a recipe for failure too. - Yeah, that's not a good thing. - Yeah, 'cause people when they think they're prioritizing, they have to deprioritize something else. It's like a sacrifice, but it's not that way. So maybe that's the answer. That goes back to that graphic we are talking about. It's like, my partner is a priority, but I have other priorities too. - That's true. - So you're still a priority, but this person was saying it should be the number one priority. - Number one priority. - I don't know. - Weird, right? Yeah, I don't know. - It's so hard. It's so hard, 'cause life is something. - I think so. - I love that we're just giving all the food for thought. All these people that are like, you know, I feel like this term has been throwing around lately but maybe think of Foda, fear of dating again. And I am just like, we're adding another massive turmoil and people's mind right this minute, probably, that are like, I'm barely surviving the pandemic or getting out of it myself. Now I need to make sure that this person is my whole world's a priority. - Foda, what a funny, funny word. Fear of dating again. How many of you have Foda? Just raise your imaginary hand for us, 'cause we want to take a poll. - I feel like, yeah, I feel like this is becoming a thing. I've heard this on multiple, you know, in multiple articles. It came up on, I did, like, while UA was on another podcast that I'm gonna be on this week, we did, it's kind of like Clubhouse, but it's called Fishbowl. They call it when Reddit and Clubhouse had a baby, it becomes Fishbowl. So we did one with Courtney K, who is a long term, how UA and I met, we got introduced by Courtney, she's our matchmaker, data coach, friends, as she wanted us to be part of this, and I ended up just doing it because UA had the conflict, and Foda came up a lot. Like this came up as like, what, and apparently, this was like their most trafficked room that they've ever had in history. There was like thousands of people there, which I wasn't even aware of. So if you're coming in for Fishbowl, welcome, we're happy to have you. But I think Foda was like a very real thing, and that's why I think it got a lot of tune in, because it was like all about dating post pandemic, and answering questions. Yeah, 'cause there's so many layers to it. There's the social layer to that, there is the COVID layer, and then on top of that, there is the romance layer, and to navigate all of those three layers together, I can totally understand why someone would just want to crawl back into a hole and feel like, let me quarantine. Yeah, it's funny, 'cause I wasn't expecting this. I was expecting like, oh, everyone would be dying to date again. 'Cause they've been more conscious about it, maybe not dating as much as they once did, or be if they were super conservative with COVID, maybe not really going out and seeing anyone. So you would think that people would jump at the chance, but I think it's the zero to 180. It's like, you kind of need to take those baby steps. And I think that's okay. If you're feeling Foda yourself, maybe it's just easing back in platonically with people or doing things that aren't as much pressure right away if you're feeling that way. Yeah, baby steps. I think the part with Foda, I can totally see it. Foda comes from just, it's really fun. And the concept is really fun. So you're like gearing up. Yes, I want to date again, but when push comes to shove, you're thinking about logistically how to do all of this, and then the energy you have to spend and the effort, I totally understand where that fear can come from and the reluctancy. So listen to yourself, listen to your intuition. If you are fearing it and your body is kind of, you know, trying to like push against it, maybe you're just not ready yet, baby steps. Yeah, so I was actually on another podcast, the California groundbreakers. That was all about, again, dating post pandemic. And there was also a professor at UC Davis that had an attraction lab, and I think we should try to get on the podcast, because he had very interesting insights. And like one of the things that he said that stuck out to me was the reason like dating apps obviously have been rising through the pandemic, because it's been the one way to like meet people and date, like no one's going out and meeting people organically. And he said that a lot of people have felt, you know, frustrated by the dating apps, maybe more than even before, because that's been like the whole basis of every romantic interaction. And they've been like putting more weight potentially on like if someone flakes from a conversation or doesn't match back where in the past you kind of balance that with like going to parties or going out and about and like having more of these meet cute experiences in addition to just dating apps. So it was seen as like one vehicle, not the only vehicle. So I feel like I'm hoping that people can like if they're feeling overwhelmed, maybe it's just getting yourself back out there in more social settings and kind of easy again that way. And then hopefully not like eventually getting back to dating apps too because I still believe firmly that there could be a way to meet people. It just might not have to be like the only way if that's causing you a lot of like stress and anguish. Yeah. And photo can leave lead to photo. Actual photo. Julie, do you want to do to bring up the text? Oh my god. We need to. We got a text from Ades. Oh my god. I got to pull it up. It was so great. And Nes is one of our favorite past guests. Probably remember her from across ages. It was dating and ghosting and all the likes we had. And Naz and Amanda and Naz is in her seventies of me. Does it her thirties and she is a firecracker. I just love. I was like getting. I was like out with my boyfriend and I was getting these texts and I was just showing him like videos of a Naz dance. And there. So like she is just a firecracker. I'm like, if I could be like this, like if I could be like this in my seventies, I'd be in like great shape, right? Oh yeah. If I could be like that in my fifties, I'd be happy. Oh my god. She has more energy than I do in my thirties. I'll just put that up. That's amazing. But she was say she group texted you a diet. She's like, girls, I'm laughing so hard. You can't imagine because in the newsletter, we put something about photo. And she's Brazilian. So she basically said, photo in Brazilian Portuguese is slaying to screw or to fuck. So she just kept thinking that every time. And I'm like, oh my god. I love this. This whole chain is just killing me. I love it. She's the best. I love it because it's so opposite of photos. Yeah. So now like photo. What's this? It has a sexy ring to it, right? Yeah. Do you have photo or do you want to photo? Right. Right. You're like, what type of photo are you talking about? You know, as you are our idol, thank you for being part of our lives. She's truly the best. She really is. What a funny text. I was like, photo. Like photo to screw. Really? That's what that means. That's great. Two funny love it. I think you were like on an airplane during this whole thing too. Yeah. I got off the plane. It's like 15 texts later about photo. This is conversation. I mean, oh, okay. Great. Right up my alley since we're a sex podcast. Yep. Exactly. It's all how you interpret it. So speaking of photo introverts, all the likes, I think we should do our question of the day. This is something that comes up a lot. And I think it's a really good transition of, you know, like we're getting off. We all get it back out there. June 15th. If you're listening now, it is, we're like in the future as we're recording this podcast intro. But June 15th, at least is the California magic date. Other states probably have either already reopened or have been reopened if you're in Florida for like the whole pandemic. Yeah. No judgment. Never close. Been photowing this whole time. You know, in Florida. Photo in Florida. Photo in Florida. That's a virtue. But in all seriousness, here's our question because as things open up, we get this question quite a bit, especially from people who are naturally introverted or who become increasingly more introverted like myself. So at this person summed it up the best as things open up, how can I as an introvert meet people out in the wild? I think by the nature of this question, you can feel the type of the fear of conversation, the fear of approaching strangers that comes up. And I get that. That gives me a lot of anxiety to think about. That's what I experienced this past weekend at the wedding. I think the first what we need to do as introverts or as self-labelled introverts is to stop calling yourself an introvert. The more you call yourself an introvert, the more introverted you become. So just say I have introverted tendencies, but I like people. That's who you are. That's why you want to meet people. Meeting people out in the wild is exactly that. You're not meeting people on the pedestal. You're not meeting goddesses. You're not meeting gods. You're not meeting warriors. You're meeting other people. So they're at the same level. They're all humans. And you're approaching them as humans. So just think about out in the wild are meeting people who are exactly the same as you. They're humans. My biggest learning from some of my earlier days of hanging out with my friends who are more extroverted is when you go into a room or a bar or an event and you want to meet new people. Always latch yourself.
to the most extroverted person in the room. Find that person, 'cause that person's gonna love you, they wanna take you on under their wings, and they wanna introduce you to other people. Let them be that vehicle for conversation. - Oh my God, I found this quote. It came up on Instagram the other day that was like basically like, as an introvert, I either have no friends or I got adopted by an extrovert that likes to be. (laughing) - But isn't that the truth? - It is. - Oh, that's so true though. It's so funny, I would never think of you as an introvert in a zillion years because you're so outgoing. And I think a lot of times people misconstrued what it means to be an introvert. 'Cause some of it is just how you recharge, so I love this tip of like, are you still a people person? Even if you recharge by being alone, that doesn't mean that you can't socialize with people. But I do know people that are, that I just maybe they actually get more energized when they're with people, but they are not people that like have wide social circles because they don't value that as much. Like they value like deep small connections. But I think depending on who you are, probably the best way to get back out there to meet people is through friends of friends. I think that like, I mean, I don't know if I'm an introvert or an extrovert. I waver back and forth like every day. - You're more extroverted. - I think I'm an ambivert. That's like the middle, right? Of like getting energy from both. - I think you skew still more extrovert. - Probably. - Yeah. - Probably, I don't know. - I need more and more downtime as I get older for sure. - That's how aging may be. - Maybe. - That's a make you less of an extrovert. - I guess like I think some of it is that like even meeting people totally random, I fear that. Like I could never just walk up to some rando person and start talking to them. Like that's very daunting to even someone that considers them an extrovert. So I think first of all, know that you're kind of on level playing fields with everyone there. It's something that especially as dating apps have gotten more and more popular, it's something we do less and less in society. So I would say start with friends of friends and you know maybe that's going to a party again. I was so happy to go to a party this weekend. I was just like, love it. Every second of it, I'm like, I haven't done this in two fucking years. - Yeah. - One year, okay. Give her a chance. - A year and a half. It's up to us two years. But I think some of it is like maybe you don't need to dive into the party of 50 to 100. Unless that's cool with you, then by all means do it. But I think that's obviously the best odds, right? Is to like meet people because you'll have some connection. It won't be totally random. It's so much easier to strike up random conversations with people at a party than at a random place where you have no connection to them. But even if you're not the type of person that either has friends that throw parties or you don't have a wide set network, even like saying like to your friend, being like, hey, do you have like another person that you can bring and start to like have the ripple effect because then they'll have people. And that's how you grow your social network. And that's how you can start meeting more and more people. And I think people also sometimes go with this intention of like meeting someone of whatever like sex or gender they're attracted to. There doesn't need to be that. It can just be like baby steps again. Like just meet another human being because you never know who they know. - Yes, exactly. So if you're an introvert, we totally get it. I get it. I feel like people suck the energy out of me. So instead of you putting yourself out there to get your energy sucked out of, you just find that person, one of your extroverted friends who thrives on other people's energy. And they can in turn give you the people and the energy that you need. And if you're out in the wild, just find the loudest person in the room or the person who loves attention, that person would just love to take you around the room and help you meet people. - Is that how our friendship started? - Yeah, where you my Sherpa. - Maybe. - Introduce me to people. I'm scared of meeting people. But yeah, I think in friendships too, you see that dynamic. You see the one that's more outgoing and you see the other one that's a little bit more, like got to peel back the onion layers a little bit more. And that's the best part of humans is that we're also different, but we compliment each other. So find the person in the room who compliments you. That's so much of romantic interest. Just someone who compliments your energy and then have them be your Sherpa. - Love it. - For the record, everyone was asking where you were. - Oh, okay, I feel much better. I feel much better. See, I'm the type of extrovert in that way, in a hypothetical way. In my mind, I was hypothetically conversing with everyone having great time at this 50 person party. But in reality, I was at home in much of pajamas, drinking some good whiskey, yes. Love it. Let's do a couple of announcements and our sponsors and then we're gonna get into some of the stuff that Vanessa teaches, which is gonna be really fun. We're gonna give it to some of the actual human connection hacks. So quick messages that we have, we are going to, I mean, this Thursday we have Corey Rosen from your story, Well told. We are going to be doing our dateable after show that's part of the sounding board. He's gonna be helping us all come out of our shelves. I think this is the best thing to do if you have photo right now is to come to this event. It's key as I've done many of his classes and let me tell you this is a steal. The price that we charge at the sounding board is an absolute steal. We are lucky to have friends at high places with this, which is very nice with our network. All of our guests, this is a steal. Like they're so good to us in that regard. And I think one of the things that is gonna be super fun, it's gonna be very interactive. It's going to be flexing those social muscles that a lot of us have been, you know, haven't been actively using this much. And I think it's gonna really help whether that story is just conversation on a date or maybe it's your with a partner and you've run out of things to say 'cause you know, it's COVID and there hasn't been a ton of things happening. Like that will help get that ammunition going or even the difficult stuff. Like why are you still single? Why are you divorced? Why have you never had a relationship? Like those questions you fear someone asking you, he's gonna help you come up with a freaking awesome story to tell your story. - Mm-hmm. I can't wait for this one. It's gonna be really interactive like Julie said and also helps you reshape your thinking because you might think your life is mundane or you might think your life is not that interesting. But he's gonna help you realize that everybody's life can be really exciting, unique as long as you story tell in the way that he's gonna teach you. So join that, join the sounding board at datewapockast.com/soundingboard for all the information. - Mm-hmm. And definitely get on it 'cause we keep these small so we can have that personal attention. - Mm-hmm. - Cool. - The ultimate is that we will be having a pride livestream. We are going to be having Ryan, who's one of our moderators and hosts. And his boyfriend who he met during the pandemic, Matt, they are going to lead. I love that he brought Matt into the group. Again, we are all for couples. Once you meet your person, keep them dateable. Listen to dateable together, bring them into the Facebook group, all the good stuff. That warves my heart hearing this all the time. But they are going to lead a livestream and we are also inviting other members of the community that are in the LGBTQ+ community. To also speak, we had Brian Clark, our most dateable winner, so that he's down. And we put up a post today for anyone to join 'cause we'd love just diversity within the community as well to be represented. So I'm excited. We're gonna talk about just the history of it a pride. Like why are we celebrating pride for an entire month? And then why should straight people get behind this? - And when it says June 23rd? - June 23rd, yes. We're gonna do this June 23rd, 5.30 pm, PSD 8.30 pm, ESD, our standard times that we typically do these live streams. - That's gonna be so much fun. I can't wait to just see, see Brian and Matt be just cute together. - Love it. So yeah, if you're not in the Facebook group, this is your call out to join Love at the Time of Corona by the dateable podcast, can search on Facebook. We just have you give a little blurb so we know you're a real person. And then of course, if you wanna take things up a notch, the sounding board, that's where the Corey event is going to be. That's where the happy hours happen. That's where all these people are starting to become super close friends. And we had a DC and SF beat up and New York. I think there was like multiple meetups this week. - Yeah, I'm Seattle this week. - Seattle, that's the other one. - Yeah, Washington, DC. - Yep, it's starting. It's starting people. - It is starting, cool. Let's take another quick second to talk about our sponsors. Are historical romances your thing? Yeah, then you will love the undercover Duke by Sabrina Jefferies. 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away. It's trickier than it sounds. Powerful cards lead to early gains but make you a target and rely on weaker cards for too long and your letter may be tossed in the fire. I find it to be a fun and nice 20-minute mental break during the day. This 2-6 player card game fits in your pocket so you can take it with you anywhere. Love letters appropriate for ages 10 and up and is available for 1199 through Z-Man games. You can find it at Target, your local game store or directly through Z-Man's Web Store. Before we get into Vanessa, we had a little shorter time with Vanessa than we typically like because she's very in demand as a lot of engagement so we would take any time we could get but a little shorter than our typical interviews. We wanted to do a little trivia first. So UAIT actually has not seen these questions. This is very raw and real but I'm actually getting this out of Captivate which is Vanessa's book. Anyone on YouTube can see this and Rumor has it and Vanessa's working on a new book right this minute. It's very exciting. So this whole episode we're really talking about PQ which is interpersonal intelligence and it's really again like how do you use all the tools at your disposal to understand humans so you can relate in the best way possible? Yep. So we'll be going into what PQ means a lot more in the actual episode too but it's really about your people skills essentially is what it's boiled down to. Okay so the first question I have for you UA, how much of our personality comes from our genes? So option A is very little. Our personality is mostly formed by how we're raised. B 35% to 50% C 55% to 75% D a lot. Our personality is mostly formed by our genetics in DNA. What a timely question. I watched this movie called Soul on the plane. It's a Pixar animated film and it's about how the soul and how we get our personalities and what what happens. Obviously it's an animated film but in the movie they talk about how your personality is basically something like assigned to you. It's not really in your genes. So I'm going to say it's A not zero from your genes. Okay well Pixar was wrong. I learned our biopic. But it was B 35 to 50%. So it wasn't totally wrong. You just went like zero. It's not zero. There's going to be some parts that are genetically passed down but what that means is that basically 50% is up to you and that could be your environment that could be your own self work, all of that type of stuff. How interesting. Okay. Now personality. We passed down through the genes. Okay. So some of it. There's a little bit. Yeah. A little bit. So some is nature. Some is nurture basically, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good question. So the next trivia question is the best way to show someone you care about them is to tell them all the reasons they are awesome. B get them a gift. C do their to-do list for them. D all of the above. E it's different for each person. Oh easy. It's this love languages. So E it's different for each person. It is. I thought that was like that was an easy question for you. But I think it's an important one and like you know not all our listeners might know about love languages and even if you do that you know it's a I think it's a fascinating topic because everyone is different. Yeah. And what makes you feel loved and cherished and all that might not be what is someone else. So I think you know really especially as you're dating someone understanding that is super important and even like for friendship or other relationships too it's very important. Yes. Yes. Okay. Our brains are most active when we are chatting about A our crush B the latest juicy gossip C ourselves D the latest thriller. Oh that's a good one. Okay. If for all of our listeners right now I want you to screenshot this right now and and tag us on Instagram with your answer. So can you give us a give us the choices again Julie. Yep. Our crush the latest juicy gossip ourselves the latest thriller. Okay. Everybody got your answer. Here's my answer. I think it's gossip. Juicy gossip. You are not correct. It's ourselves. Everyone likes to believe our brains are most active when we talk about ourselves. Yes. I think that's what was a C. I'm like maybe I should check the answer and make sure that's correct. Yeah. Julie just made it up. No. Is it C? It is C. Okay. It is correct. I think that is like honestly I think that if you are ever unsure of how to win I don't like win people over but like you know like connect with someone. It's asking them questions about themselves. Yeah. I think people's like pet peeps is when you just talk at them like those people are the most if you're ready to be or someone that never asks you anything like a quick and easy way to make yourself likable is to just ask how someone is doing or ask them about selling that's interesting to them. That's fascinating. But it also shows that when we talk about ourselves our brains are working overtime to construct that story which is why Cory Rosen is going to be so valuable for us to be joined his workshop about creating your story. That was great great one. Okay. This is a good leads into them. The best way to get someone on the same page is you is to a tell them a story. B. pay them a compliment. C. make them laugh or D. say something surprising to get on the same page as you. I say to make them laugh. Nope. The answer is the answer is tell them a story which is like I love that and I can totally see why because it's like you're in an experience together essentially and then you can also see how they react like see what's interesting. I think you can quickly see someone's sense of humor, some of their values like depending on how they react to the story. So Julie you're telling me the next time I go in for a salary negotiation I should be like listen boss hold on let me tell you the story first. So this weekend I did this actually you know what that might work that's how you small talk and then you're like can I have a million dollars. Okay try that out and get back. Good answer. Okay and then the very last one that I'll do okay is I'm ready. Making someone feel blank is the best way to improve their mood. A. flattered. B. attractive. C. valued. D. powerful. C. valued. Everybody wants to be seen. You came out ahead you are you got the last one. Thank goodness. I think all of this is so fascinating it's a great lead in to our discussion with Vanessa because it's really just understanding some of this stuff and what I like about her and other body language experts that are out there is that if someone's doing something that's not necessarily in line with what you think it doesn't mean that like they hate you or they don't like you or whatever is it's an opportunity to reset either zone in on that a little more attend to that need or ask questions I think that's what she really stresses in this it's a cue it's not the whole answer and I think that is kind of like the the line that I want to also put out there is I think it's good to know this stuff because knowledge is power but we also don't want to get in our heads and be like over thinking like every last move that someone's doing and all that like that could go very astray so it's it's using these as cues in as permission to ask more is really I think the big takeaway I really love that and it's also a great way to be present in the moment and almost be meditating on your the person's body movements and the signals they're sending out so that eventually just becomes part of your learning you don't deposit be like oh what where her legs at and how many times does she blink at me just becomes part of your cognitive workflow and it'll just benefit all of us to better understand each other so we cannot wait to get into this episode I think it's time it is time let's hear it from Vanessa let's get into this discussion with the expert herself Vanessa van Edwards she's 36 years old currently lives in Austin she's been there for two years originally from LA she's married now she is a founder and lead investigator as science of people she is the best selling author of captivate the science of succeeding with people Vanessa is renowned for teaching science backed people skills to audiences around the world including South by Southwest MIT and CES just to name a few Vanessa how are you we've been trying to get you since 2017 we were looking back through our messages that's how long has been oh my goodness I'm honored I'm honored thank you I'm excited to be here yeah I have your paperback copy and there's a note from 2017 of captivate which is too funny but we're super excited to have you so many of the things from the book have stayed with us all these years later so oh my goodness well I wrote it I wrote it for you then that's yes you did amazing you wrote it for us first and then it got super popular and then we didn't feel as special obviously obviously you know it's it's so funny writing I'm an awkward person I'm a recovering awkward person and it's so funny like writing
a book is such a solo endeavor, right? Like I'm alone all the time. I'm researching and then the book became so successful and then people wanted to talk to me and I was like oh no what have I done? We were actually going to kick off that we love the fact that you call yourself a recovering awkward person. So I think that's such a funny thing to even like start with but like as someone I guess we'll get right into it like as someone that doesn't have natural people skills. Like how did you learn to have human behavior as you call it? Yeah well you know it's funny I read all every book that was ever written about communication. I feel like I had read it. I mean everything from how to win friends and influence people to I don't know if you remember the ridiculous book Tung Fu. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I went like old school. Like every communication book that was in the library I read it and I noticed that there was a pattern that most of the books felt like they were written by extroverts. And I love extroverts and I find them so magnetic and inspiring and I watch them across the room and I hide from them and they're just you know they're amazing but if you are not an extrovert it's very hard to learn people skills from an extrovert. And so I wanted to find a people skills book by an ambivert by someone who likes people. I like people but I need lots of recharge time. I need you know hacks and skills. I need to be able to find my spots and my people and my triggers. And so that was really the whole goal was to try to write something that wasn't from a natural extrovert but that it's still worth learning but it just took a little bit extra energy. So like when you say hack human behavior what is that entail? Yeah. So I love when well-meaning authors give advice like be yourself. Be more authentic. And I'm like that sounds great but I have no idea how to do that. And so one thing I wished for was I wanted to try to teach or learn soft skills using hard skills methods. I wondered okay you know with computer programming you know they hack programming they have formulas and codes and blueprints and frameworks and I was like I want those things but for people. And so when I say hack human behavior I mean can we try and I know humans are not computers but can we try to look at humans as if we could make rules for ourselves that help us not contain us. Formulas that we can work on that give confidence. You know I'm not a very confident person so I have to work on my confidence all the time. And one secret way to get confidence I found was having a formula because it sort of made me not doubt myself as much. And so as I began to research these formulas and I realized they were working for me they worked for a couple of friends and then I started publishing them and I realized oh there are other awkward people and that's when I thought you know what maybe there's something to this and that's that was sort of the the start of hacking human behavior. I feel like we always talk about IQ and EQ but you talk about PQ what is this exactly and like why is it so important with data? Yeah there is actually a difference. So IQ is you know your technical smarts your your the way that you process academic information and like learning information. EQ is how you process emotional information including your own emotional information so it's reading the emotions of others and and being able to process your own emotions. PQ is a little bit of a newer term I did not create it but it's where I live which is understanding people information, social information, being able to process body language cues, social cues and then being able to both decode and encode them so it's not just I can I can see that face I saw they processed fear and I know how to address it so it's recognizing this the social information and then being able to deliver the correct social response so it's a little bit it's it's a you know EQ is very internal whereas PQ is actually both internal and external. Interesting so now we get why that you're so into body language. Exactly. So much sense now. Exactly so I say the trifecta right if you want to be really successful you master all three. Got it. Yeah. Cool well we'll definitely have to add that one to our lingo. I know. I love it. Q you know I feel like that stood out all this time later is body language like I think you talk a lot about body language and how you can decode people better through body language. We'd love to get into it with you maybe starting with like facial expressions. Can you kind of tell us like what cues you look for like how do you use body language and facial expressions to kind of hack that behavior. Well facial expressions are like a superpower and I apologize ahead of time because once you learn facial expressions you can never unlearn them. So for anyone who's listening once you learn these you'll start seeing them everywhere and I apologize. I also think you should listen to this with like your best friend and your partner and your parents because you're going to be calling out all our facial expressions from here on out. So yes or just look in the mirror. Yeah exactly. So the most important one I think to recognize right off the bat is the fear micro expression. So it used to be believed that facial expressions were learned that we observed them from our parents but actually a lot of our facial expressions are coded within our DNA again code right like one of my favorite words. And so something is coded it means that we can study it. It means there's a universality to it and so fear across cultures across genders across races. We all make this expression to stay safe. And if you want to try this with me it's when our eyelids widen so the whites of our eyes show above our pupil so the whites upper white to our eyes show and then raise your eyebrows as far of your forehead as they'll go and then we usually open our mouth and take an air. Yeah and if you keep that expression you'll begin to feel a little unnerved a little bit anxious especially try to widen your lids the whites of your eyes show yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly exactly so the funny thing about this is this keeps us safe right if we are in a dangerous environment or we're threatened by someone our brain our body wants to take in as much as we can so we widen our eyes to see our environment to see what our threats are to see an escape route and our mouth opens to take an oxygen in case we have to yell for help or run away. So that face for all humans is the safest face we can make. Now I know this sounds crazy for like dating or business but actually you see this expression all the time in social and business situations all the time if you ask someone a question they don't know the answer to they will often often flash fear at you. In fact in a business setting if you say to someone hey like do you know anything about this new client and someone flashes the whites of their eyes that's the easiest way is you just tap something they don't know or if you ask an introvert an overly personal question see the whites of their eyes you know really funny pop culture example did you guys see that viral video of the Texas lawyer who had the cat filter on us yes okay okay everyone go rewatch that video you will see as he's looking for what to do about this filter even in the cat image his eyes are in the fear micro expression yeah and that is because the technology is making him nervous so if you ask an introvert overly personal question if you ask someone a question that they have a lie or a bad answer to they will often flash fear so if you say you know tell me about your ex and they flash fear you you know even if the verbal is like oh yeah yeah we're on good terms but they flash fear you you know that you've tapped into something nerve-wracking so for me facial expressions are like reading beyond the words and it's so powerful so fear is my favorite would you say people with too much Botox are making people really confused when reading facial expressions so Botox there's actually research on Botox so Botox inhibits the facial feedback loop now this isn't always a bad thing so when we're angry let's talk about the anger micro expression anger is when you pull your eyebrows down into two vertical lines now if you've had Botox you can't do that right you can't you literally cannot throw your brows now that they've found actually reduces the amount of anger a person feels oh hmm which is kind of amazing so yeah they're even I've heard through the grapevine that anger management classes are now recommending it to people who get angry really wow yeah I'm so glad I got Botox I'm like I've been the happiest ever there you go there you go so what other facial expressions like I'm thinking of like what are the negative ones could you watch out for like if you're on a date and you're trying to read if someone's into you because we hear all the time of people that go on a date they think it went wonderfully and then they never hear from this person again totally okay so this is the same it's funny because getting thinking a great went well and getting not getting a callback or being ghosted is the same as doing a sales call or a pitch or a presentation and thinking it well and having it not go well same skills that if you can read facial expressions it's almost like it's tipping you off to what potentially went wrong the biggest negative one is actually contempt and it's not affected by Botox which is very helpful so contempt is a one-sided mouth raise so just try raising up one side of your mouth like a little smirk yep yep yep so that one-sided mouth raise if you hold it you'll begin to feel better than scornful negative I wouldn't hold it for too long don't hold it for too long and that's because it's a dangerous expression because it's often mistaken for like half happiness or you know maybe like irony or sarcasm but actually it's so negative that researcher dr john gotman uh he's a marriage and family council in Seattle he researched thousands of married couples and he found that the greatest predictor of divorce was that in the early interviews of a of a couple one member of the couple showed contempt towards the other and if that was the case with 93.6% accuracy
that couple would get divorced. - Wow. - Wow. - That is insane, insane. - Wow. - Just from a little lip movement here. - Yeah, and so what I would say is the two negative ones you really wanna look out for on a date specifically are fear. Did you just tap into something that makes them anxious or nervous or confused? But second is contempt. Because contempt is the only emotion that doesn't go away. So fear comes in a burst and people calm themselves down. Happiness comes in a burst and then people get back to normal. Anger people get frustrated and they get calm. Not contempt. Contempt is if someone feels contemptuous of something and that isn't addressed, it sits and it festers. So if you were to say something like a passion statement or a personal statement, I love to travel or I'm vegan or I'm really passionate about dogs. And you see contempt on the other person's face 'cause they're trying to show half happiness. You are in trouble. You want to make sure that that is not important to you because they feel contemptuous of something in that you just said. Is it that they secretly don't like it and that they're trying to pretend that they do is that why that facial expression is made? It could be that or it could be. So it could be that they're secretly sort of like, "Ugh, I hate dogs." Who hates dogs? I don't know who that is. But someone says that, right? "Ugh, hate dogs." Or it could be they've had a bad experience with dogs and they feel contemptuous of themselves. We don't know always what's happening inside but we do know that something negative came up and that warrants further investigation. So if I was on a date and someone said, and I said, "I love to travel," and they showed contempt. I would immediately toss back to them and say, "Do you love to travel? Have you traveled much?" When was last time you traveled? Maybe they made contempt because they haven't been able to travel in the pandemic. You know, it could be that it's not actually the thing. It's that they haven't been able to do it. So that's when you want to go into investigation mode and that's what my current questions are. They're red flags. They're flags that say, "Look at me." Ask me a question about this. God, it's what doesn't necessarily mean that they don't like you or the relationship is doomed. It's just whatever was said in that moment. If it continues to fester, I'm trying to relate it back to the statement you made earlier about John Gottman. How does that connect to relationships falling apart? It's because it's a seed of dislike or a seed of difference. And if that difference isn't worked out, discussed, compromised and respected, we could have a difference. You might hate travel. I might like travel. But if we have an understanding about that, if we've said, "Oh, yeah, you'll go travel with your girlfriends." And I'm gonna be the home body. That's okay. But in what Dr. Gottman found is in these couples, someone would say an eye statement, like, "I'm not very organized." And the other person would sort of flash contempt. And that wasn't addressed. And so over time, it would sit and it would fester and it would create disrespect and hatred and disdain. So that's why facial expressions are like a superpower and a early relationship during dating 'cause it can help you give a peak into where your future communication issues might be. - That's really helpful to learn 'cause I had to look up what contempt really means. I've never really thought about the definition and the definition is the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless or deserving of a scorn. And you think about someone being condescending and dismissive and I really think that plants a seed for disrespect. And as we all know in relationships, when you disrespect your partner, you're doomed. - It's over. - Yes, yes, that's why I'm so happy you guys asked about it because I think that that's, well, don't we want to, we're all gonna have communication issues. That's okay. We're all gonna have differences. That's good. The difference is in a relationship we're good. As long as you're really crystal clear on what they are, I think that's the setting of a really beautiful relationship. - So let's take a really quick break from this riveting discussion with Vanessa to hear a few quick messages. This episode is sponsored by Rothes. Have you heard about this company making stylish, sustainable shoes and bags? They're carefully crafted with eco-friendly materials like repurposed plastic water bottles and marine plastic. In case you haven't heard of them, they're called Rothes. Their shoes offer zero break-in period due to their seamlessly knit to shape design. I opted for the Navy Houndstooth in the point style because they're so chic looking that I could wear them to work or a night out. And they're also really comfortable because they're flats. And not to mention, they're versatile as well. I've worn mine with skirts, slacks, jeans and dresses. Rothes are available in a range of styles and come in an ever-changing array of colors, prints, and patterns. Finding the perfect style is easy because Rothes come with free shipping and free returns on eligible items. And another reason to support this company, they've transformed nearly 100 million bottles into their beautiful products. Check out all the amazing shoes, bags, and masks available right now at rothes.com/datable. That's r-o-t-h-y-s.com/datable. Style and sustainability meet to create your new favorites. Head to rothes.com/datable today. Are you in the market for a new mattress? Well, Avocado Green mattress is truly the answer for you. They're certified organic mattresses sleep cool, relieve pressure, and support your body. So you can enjoy deep restorative sleep. Every avocado mattress uses healthy natural materials and they're even handmade. What really got me was being able to go in and feel it for myself. You can actually walk into one of their 14 plus showrooms or partner locations to test it out. And trust me, once you lie down on one, you'll just know. And you'll also feel good knowing that your bed is made from real certified organic materials like cotton and wool, which provide that perfect blend of breathability, support, and durability. And remember, you can experience them in person at an avocado showroom or premier retailer near you. Or shop online at avocadogreen mattress.com/datable to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocadogreen mattress.com/datable. Avocadogreen mattress.com/datable. What about body language of how you stand relative to someone else? I've heard if you point your feet towards them, it means that you like our into them. What does your take? Is there any truth to that? There is some truth to that. So think about this way. So when you like something or when you're interested in something, you want to move towards it. You want to get closer to it. You want to listen to it. You want to hear it. You want to see it. If you see a delicious piece of cake across the room, your whole body, you want to smell it. You want to taste it. You want to lick it. You want to be first in line to get it. And so the same kind of thing happens with people that we like, with topics that we like. And so we've noticed that, and research, there's some research to prove this as well, that when there is a person in the room that we're most interested in, now this could be a crush. But this could be the boss. This could be someone who holds the keys to your tower. This could be someone you're intrigued by. Your body will sort of give you a way and that your toes will begin to orient towards them because that's where you want to move. So I have noticed, and I'm researching this for my next book, which I'm very excited about, that when people are getting ready to leave a party, their body will start to angle towards the door. Like literally they're getting ready to go towards the door. When someone's really hungry, their body will slowly orient towards the buffet, like just slowly. And so this is a great thing because one, it can help you see intention. Right, if someone's all the sudden breaks away from you with their body begins to angle towards something, it's just something you know, they've disengaged slightly. And you have a choice. You can say, "Hey, do you want to grab some food together, grab a plate?" Or you can say, "Oh, I'm going to ramp it up, but I'm going to be more engaging." Right, like I'm going to get them back. So you have a choice with that queue, and that all body language I think is the same way is, it gives you choices, it gives you more information, and more information is empowering. For someone like me who's a recovering aqua person who doubts myself constantly to have some extra communication tools in my tool belt, makes me feel like, "Okay, I think they just disengaged great. This is the perfect opportunity to like go to the bathroom and reconnect later." Or whatever. Right. And Vanessa, do you prioritize which part of the body is more important? Because you always hear like, "Oh, if her knees are pointed towards you, she must be interested." But what if her torso is turned away from you? Is this just mixed signals? So some experts say that the feet are the windows to the soul, like the lower part of the body, because we don't think about it as much, right? So like they sort of are intuition or are instinct. I like that. I think that's a cool idea. But I like to pay attention to the purposeful ones a little bit more. So if someone's angled their torso towards me and their head towards me and their chin and their shoulders, they are trying to connect with me. Okay, if they're fear-pointed the other way, maybe they kind of have to go to the bathroom, but they're so engaged with me that they're trying. So I would rather, I like to look at the facial expressions, I movement, mouth behavior, hand gestures, and torso more. The feet and the legs, if I see it great, the other thing is like, just from a purely logistical standpoint, looking at someone's feet is kind of hard. Right? Like, like, like, pure logistics. Like, you're in a great date with someone, or you're a net, or a ganger, you're speedating, and you're like, looking at someone's feet the whole time. It's weird. You're like, head is under the table at a restaurant. You're just like, I do not know. I do not see if this person likes me or not. Yeah, I need to take your back right now. Not a single touch. I feel like another one that I think is really important is eye contacts. Like, I notice if someone isn't giving me eye contact, and I notice when they're really dialed in. But I've also had a friend that I've called out on this a little, not even a romantic partner. And it's kind of just the way she is. Like, how do you like know whether like, it's a sign, or it's just, you know, they're not even, they're oblivious to what they're doing kind of thing. So it's funny. I, whenever I teach presentations, I have, usually I teach a slide that talks about the science behind eye contact. And I always start with a little multiple choice question. So we'll have, we'll do it together. Everyone looks like me.
Okay, in Western cultures, so this is a little different, the little different verb cultures, but let's take Western cultures. What amount of the conversation should you be making eye contact? So in a one to one conversation, what percent of the time should you be engaging in eye contact? Is it A, 30%, B, 50% of the time, C, 65% of the time, or D, 90% of the time? - C. - I would say 90, is that C? - That's D, so D. I would say D. - Okay, so D and five. Okay, correct, the answer is C, the answer is C. So here's what's funny about that. Every single answer gets hands raised. - Mm. - So some people raise their head at 30%, so you'll are sure it's 50%. So you'll are sure it's, and so that taught me something very interesting that yes, I get the research shows 65%, but when you actually ask thousands and thousands of people, everyone has different ideas of appropriate eye contact. This in a way I think gives you permission that if you're in between 30 and 90%, great. If you can narrow it a little bit more to like 50 to 70, perfect, right? So I would say that you don't have to drive yourself crazy with this, but you do wanna try to make eye contact for enough of the time where you're at least looking at their facial expressions. You're noticing their eye color, you're noticing their eye movement. You don't have to be locked eyes with them. In fact, at 90%, you begin to get a little invasive. Like it begins to be like, whoa, whoa. - Whoa. So that should give people permission that they don't have to make eye contact a lot of the time, but you wanna know this their expressions. That's kind of the rule of thumb. So that hopefully that makes you feel better. - That's also interesting too, 'cause like I think I make eye contact a lot, which is why I value it a lot, but you're basically saying that it can vary so it may not really be an indicator of interest. Like if you think that the person isn't doing it as much. - I think that under 30% and it isn't indicator of interest. Does that make sense? Like if it goes under 30%, you're actually missing the chemical of oxytocin. So when we make eye contact, we produce oxytocin. Well, if you're not making enough eye contact, you're not producing enough oxytocin, which means that if someone's not wanting the oxytocin for me, there is a lack of interest there. - So does that mean if you're making like 90%, you're just like so obsessed with each other? - It's invasive, you know? It's like, well, let's put this way. What do we do right before we kiss? We make 90% eye contact. - Yeah. - So it's just sliding up the scale of intimacy. That isn't bad if you're vibing. Right? If you're vibing and you're like, yeah, I want you to kiss me. Great, slide up that scale. Right? Like go all the way up. But if you're in a loud bar and you're not sure, sometimes 90% can be like, whoa, this is coming on too strong. - Mm-hmm. - Right. - So it's all contextual, that makes sense too. - But always in between 30 and 90, right? Like we never want to go below or above. That's kind of my range. So if someone's like consistently removing their eyes from you, that's a bad sign, basically. - If they're only looking at your feet, then they've either heard something weird about body language. (laughing) Or they're avoiding. - And Vanessa, you say that the first five minutes is really important when meeting someone new, making that first impression. So what are some quick tips you can give to our listeners for making a very good first impression in those first five minutes? So I really like studying first impressions. I think that I put a lot of pressure on myself to make every answer amazing. You know, when I was dating, when I was doing pitches, interviews, I was like, I have to have every answer be perfect by body language has to be perfect for the entire time. But then I actually realized looking at the research, that's actually not true. There's actually good news in that it's really just the first few seconds. Like if you can make the first few seconds great nonverbally, it kind of sets you up for a really good interaction, no matter what you say or do, which is kind of nice. So I would say in the first few seconds, and when we break this down, there's a couple key elements to a good first impression. But the number one is openness. In the sense of, we don't like when things block our bodies. Like we don't like when someone is crossing their arms or holding something in front of their chest. We don't like when someone doesn't reach their hands out towards us, because I feel like it feels like they're being closed off. So you want to be as open and possible. Mutual eye contact, smiling at the same time, showing hand gestures and making visible hands, reaching out for a very purposeful nonverbal initiation of touch. So that could be a handshake, that could be a hug, that could be a cheek kiss, that could be a high five, that could be a fist bump. I like all those things just be very clear. Like the most awkward thing that you can do in interaction is be unsure of what kind of touch you want to give. Well, that makes it more awkward even now with COVID. I'm like, I don't know if someone gave me like a fist bar. How exactly. Exactly. So like even especially now, I'm super clear with the kind of touch I would like. So if I feel comfortable with someone, I'm like, I'm coming in for a hug. And I will literally open my eyes wide as I'm coming in for a hug. If I want, if I want a fist bump, I hold up my fist like five feet away to show like, I am coming in for a fist bump. If I want a cheek kiss, which I don't usually do, but if it's my European friends, I lean with my face. Like I literally show them I'm coming. That clarity is so, it makes someone feel like, oh wow, this person knows what they want. I know what they want. And we're warm, we're competent, we're all in the same page. Well, that's probably why historically, it'll be interesting to see what happens with dating, but people would always greet with a hug like on a first date. A lot of times, 'cause it's like setting up for openness. So I could see why that became a thing. I'm still kind of into that. And I actually think that it went in the predating phase. It's actually a great question to be like, hey, are you comfortable hugging when we see each other? Yeah. I actually think that's like a very respectful thing to ask. And that way like when you go in for the hug, it can be even warmer, because you've already, pretty permissioned it. Right. So five minutes, like I know that's like the first like 30 seconds or whatever. Like, is there anything verbally you can do to really make that master impression? I've, I've changed my opinion on this over the years. So you'll have to forgive me if I've given different advice in different YouTube videos. But as I've tried this with different people and watched my students try it, I've noticed that if you start with something too sparking, like two different and unique, it throws people. Mm-hmm. You know, so if you're like, hey, angel, Texas baby, people are like, what? Like it's too weird. It's like two different. So I actually think that your first like five words out of your mouth should be pretty casual. Hey, how's it going? Hey, good to see you. Positive, neutral. The second 10 words is where you can get a little more creative. So like, I think that the best thing you can do whether it's a video call or a in-person meeting is like, hey, it's so good to see you. Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Wow, you look great. What a beautiful restaurant. What amazing weather. That's when you can go into like the next a little bit more positive, a little bit more different. Huh, I wonder if that applies to dating apps too when it comes to messaging that I, I get thrown off when the first message is a little too in your face, maybe just a simple, hey, I notice your profile. How are you? And then go into like the more unique opener. I agree. I think that it works in dating apps just like in person. It's like, we have to know someone's not a weirdo, but we still want them to be interesting. Right. So I always say positive. Like if you can use words like good, great, amazing, wonderful in those first 10 words, I do think it changes the nature of the interaction, but it doesn't have to be what a wonderful earring you're wearing. It doesn't have to be that, right? It can be like, this is such a great day. It's so great to see you. Well, I know there's like research that, you know, people love talking about themselves. So like a way to kind of get to their heart is to ask about them. Like is there any emotion you should pull on in those initial questions? Positive, positive, positive. Like what everyone is looking for is a breath of fresh air. They might not say that, but like what we really want is we catch positivity. So their research shows that our emotions are very contagious. So if you start with like, what's good? What's good in the world right now? And that is how I approach all my meetings on my video calls. I'm like thinking what's good? What's something good I can bring up? Was there good weather? Is there good? Something genuinely good that puts me in a different kind of a space. And when you come with that energy, it's very contagious. And we remember people who are positive. We do not like it when someone's like, "Oh, the weather is so terrible, isn't it?" My gosh, I've been so busy. Oh my god, it was such a horrible traffic tonight. Like we don't like that because we don't want to catch it. Right, right. Oh, that's interesting. It's got to be realistic, but positive. Exactly. Well, this has been such an amazing conversation. We're lucky to have Vanessa for the short time that we did. I know that you're very busy. So we're very happy to get at least a short time with you. But I'd love to kind of transition us into some takeaways. I think one thing for me that came to mind is. Not, I think the part around the eye contact really resonated with me. That everyone has different thresholds. So while there are certain indicators of interest, it's not always like reflective necessarily of the true interest based on your perception. Like it's all relative to how you view it. And I think while it's really important to look at body language, what I really took away from this is like, it's another reason to ask why. Like the whole part around contempt, it's not necessarily if you see that facial expression that your whole relationship is going down the drain. But it's a reason to ask why and what's happening. So I think like even in the eye contact example, like if you see someone like not making that the same level that you would necessarily, it's an opportunity to like ask if something's distracting them or whatever it may be. And just open up that dialogue by paying attention to these nonverbal cues. Yeah, the nonverbal cues are so important. That was my takeaway. is that your nonverbal communication is just as important as your
verbal communication. So when we are on these dates and so many of us feel stressed and pressure to fill the space with words. Sometimes we can just do it with our bodies. We can turn our feet towards the person we want to date with. Maybe we can turn our, square our shoulders off to them and just take a beat to show them that you are showing interest with your body. Exactly. It's also a good reminder that we need to be just more present with our partners and on these dates so we can even be aware of the body language. Just even, you know, Vanessa said hold your gaze for long enough that you can, you can identify their eye color. That was like, I can't tell you how many dates I've been on where I can't recall their eye color because I probably was thinking too much about what should I say next. Am I coming off okay? I didn't even take the chance the time to look at the person I'm going to date with. So I think it's just a reminder that we need to be more present when we're in the presence of other people. Absolutely. I think that I'm like trying to think back to like when I've noticed people's body language and I really don't notice it. Vanessa, I think when you made that comment around, you know, like people by default are going to feel close to like what they want and like feel like they're pointing directions and all that. I think that is kind of a reminder when you see those signs too that maybe you're on to something good. Yeah. Well, this has been so interesting. Is there like any final takeaway you would leave like our audience of, you know, like what is the kind of like the tips to like ensure that you are understanding behavior? Like what would be kind of a broad level takeaway you would have? I think that the biggest thing that I think it's my life's work to share this message. So hopefully I won't get too mushy on you for the moment. But really if I could spread one idea out into the world, it's very important for people who want to meet their people is there are multiple definitions of charisma. I think a lot of us think we have to be the bubbly, happy extrovert all the time. And that's not true. There are many different kinds of charisma. You can be a quiet contemplative introvert. You can be a compassionate empathetic nurturer. You can be a warm, friendly, likable breath of fresh air. You can be the impressive, funny, magnetic person. Those are all different kinds of charismatic and they're all correct. They're all right. We like all those people. And so don't feel like you have to show up or pretend to fake it till you make it. I do not believe and fake it till you make it. I think you have a natural version of your own charisma that is wonderful and powerful and that will attract your person. So I would say don't try to fake it till you make it. Don't try to pretend to be extrovert. Instead find your natural strengths, find your natural social strengths, figure out where you're most charismatic on your own and try to find people who like you for that. That's great advice. I love that. Be yourself but to your fullest potential. Exactly. And that's where the hacks come in. Exactly. Exactly. And if you need some hacks along the way, amazing. I could not find my natural charisma without those hacks, which is why I made a career out of sharing them. Can you share with people how they can like find you if they want to look into these hacks a little more? Of course. So I put out a free YouTube video every week and we go deep. Like we go in depth and these in my two videos and they're all up for free. So I'm Vanessa Van Edwards on YouTube. And then if you want to kind of have the plan, like if you're more of a a systematic learner, then I would be honored if you would check out Captivate. I also read my audible book and try to be a little funny sometimes. So hopefully that's another if you're a listener. It's available wherever books are sold as well as an audible. And then of course my website sciencepeople.com. We have all of our courses or online content and our email PDF are like downloadable PDFs. Awesome. Great. We'll include all of that in our show notes. And one last question for you is do you think all awkward people know that they're awkward? Definitely not. No, definitely not. In fact, it's funny. I think that the sometimes the most awkward people can be the most brilliant people. So I my the people that I love to help the most are my brilliant talented above average people. Like they're so their achievers, their smart, they've had degrees, they've killed it in their career. And finally, there's something that happens with their social skills catch up with them where they realize that they have achieved something amazing, but no one invites them to lunch or that they have a brilliant idea or piece of technology or invention, but they can't raise funding. Or they are super career successful, but can't find their soulmate. And so that I think actually the most awkward people tend to be the most brilliant, which means they don't always see that all they need is a little bit of help on the social school side. And that would unlock all their brilliance, but they don't realize it. They just need those hacks. That's all. Well, Vanessa Van Edwards, everyone, thank you so much. Three years in the making. So glad that we finally made this happen. Wait, four years in the making. Yeah, it's already 20, 20, 20 months. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 20, 20, 20, 20. We finally made this happen in the count. Well, thank you so much for having me and thanks everyone for giving us your time and letting me share this mission. I appreciate it. Awesome. Thanks, Vanessa. And for everyone listening right now, it really benefits us. And to you, to leave us a review and Apple podcasts because the more reviews we get, the more five stars we get, the even better our content is. And we can get awesome guests such as Vanessa. We are very appreciative when you leave a review and five stars. It only takes you a second and it leaves us a lifetime of hearts and butterflies in our stomach. So thank you so much for anyone who's already done that. And in true dateable fashion, we're going to wrap this up. Stay dateable. Oh, there she goes. The dateable podcast is part of the Frollic Podcast Network. Find more podcasts you'll love at frollic.media/podcasts. Want to continue the conversation? First, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter with the handle at dateable podcast. Tag us in any post with a hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those posts. Then head over to our website dateablepodcast.com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles, videos, and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium Y series where we dissect, analyze, and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We're also downloadable for free on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google Play, Overcast, Stitcher Radio, and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review. And most importantly, remember to stay dateable. Olen Shannon Maldonado, a member of the Artesan Institute of Technology, has been working on the project. In the early morning of the day, the software was designed to help the software to develop the development of the software. We were able to find the best solutions for the software to develop the software. All the other things we needed to do was to create a new software, which was a great opportunity for us to use the software. We also needed to create a new software for the software to develop the software. Here is a shannon maldenado, Voice of artists who are here to keep the screen to blame for the endangerment. Even in the recent Shopeeefites regions in Estonia they keer called it Ch επokükah Day, Supporting Victims from canals from the Sports and Sports industry. After all, that was the Campus of the Dal々 Peace Bar, All of those views found, We have a Polish debate call with every member of the application of the world's highest supposed Las Vegas team. Let's watch our new videos from Ch impresive.
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