S1 Ep1: Life as a Tanfield Pupil

Welcome to the Tanfield Talks podcast series which is brought to you by the baristas at Tanfield Chambers. We are a premier UK business and property set, and our podcasts aim to give you insight into recent developments in the law and our views on those. All the cases and legislation mentioned in a podcast are set out on our website in the listing for that particular recording. If you have any questions please contact one of our staff team. Good afternoon listeners, it's James Filsen here direct to a pubelage at Tanfield Chambers this afternoon I'm in conversation with Annie Higuo. Afternoon Annie. How are we doing? Yeah, very good, thank you. Excellent. Annie's one of our many success stories of somebody who undertook pubelage in Tanfield Chambers and then has transitioned through to a very successful career as an independent practitioner. In our conversation we're going to reflect on Annie's pathway to tenancy thinking about not only just the application for pubelage and what pubelage might involve but also what steps you can take in advance of completing the application form to best set yourself up for a successful pubelage application, then what you might expect through pubelage at Tanfield and how Tanfield sets you up for success in the early years of tenancy. Annie, you're one of our success stories, many success stories, as somebody who was recruited for pubelage and then has successfully navigated that path and found their way to creating and carving a successful career, right? Yeah, I will take the job that I'm carving a successful career already, it's very early on but yeah, I've had a great time so far, it's been a real learning curve, learn a lot but yeah, sort of starting to crack on and find my feet now. And remind me, when did you come through pubelage? So I came through pubelage, I started pubelage here in September 2022. Was that straight out of basketball? Yeah, so I applied for pubelage in January 2022, so obviously normally I wouldn't be starting till September 22nd to 3 and I actually brought forward, so I applied straight out of basketball, basketball was from September 2021 to May 2022 and then started pubelage four months later. And then at the end of that 12 months pubelage, you were offered a tenancy? I was, I was actually offered a tenancy in about July, which I think was normally how ours works, you sort of get a little bit of notice as to whether they're going to take you all on off, so obviously most people are taken on, so it's quite nice to know you've got a couple of few months at the end of your pubelage where you feel quite comfortable and settled and know you're just building a career for the time being now. I mean, that's right, because I mean, you're not unique as being one of our junior members who sort of found their way through pubelage and intertenancy, that's, it's not uncommon in Tampfield, is that right? No, very much, and I was always told throughout my pubelage, it's yours to lose, Tampfield recruits of tenancy, it's not one of these sets where people are in competition, I was constantly reminded that me and Andrew, with my co-pupil very much, we were, we were a team, we were working together, there is space for everyone, it's very much, we were never pitted against each other, which is a really reassuring thing to hear, because people are just obviously stressful, but knowing that you're not competing with your contemporary, and it's someone that you can use as a real source of support was a really beneficial thing about people that share a thing. Taking you back to when you were sort of pre-application, so when you were thinking about where you might apply, I'm assuming Tampfield wasn't the only place you applied to. No, I think that might be putting all my eggs in one basket, I would have been very happy if I'd ended up in the position I had done, having done that, but no, it wasn't the only place I applied, I made 14 applications, which I think was a manageable number, some people do more, some people do less, but Tampfield was pretty high up my list because I knew I wanted to do property, and in terms of the sets that do a lot of property, there aren't that many in Tampfield really is one of the top ones, so that was always very high on my list, because I'd love Land Law when I did my GDL, I knew that I wanted to practice in it, or at least have a substantial part of my practice in property law, that's essentially what Dreamy's Tampfield is looking up, what sets do the kind of work I do, what sets are consistently involved in the leading cases in the area, and Tampfield came top of that list. So reason for applying for tendency at Tampfield was, as you've said, the area of specialism that we're practicing in property law, what is it that attracts you to property law? So I love to study in property law during my GDL, which I think was possibly an unpopular opinion, I'm not sure there were many people who sat there really about proprietary stuff, or thinking this was the most interesting bit of law they'd read, but it was something that really worked with the way that I understand problems, the way that my brain approaches things, I think it's very tangible when you're thinking about Land, it's quite miserable, you understand what you're sort of, if you're thinking about a piece of Land, you can visualise it in your head, thinking about sort of rights attaching to Land, so you think of a right of way, if you're thinking about sort of a property, it's, I found it much easier, sort of visualise disputes and understand them when you're dealing with quite a tangible asset, and that sort of just really appealed to me, but also property law is so broad, there's such a variety of work you could do within it, I mean, even from the sort of the very specific residential landlord and tent work that people will not have seen, such as in front of Tampfield, really specialises in, which people won't have seen during their GDL or during their law degree, right through to sort of big questions of equity, equitable interests, interests in land, what constitutes a property interest, so those are interesting academic questions that sort of broaden out a more intersect with equity, but also within land you've got things like nuisance, land-based talks and sort of contract disputes, there's a real breadth to property law practice, which really appealed to me, I didn't want to sit there and do the same thing over and over again, and it really is true being a property practitioner knows two days the same, and I think fundamentally it's intellectually difficult, so if you like an intellectual intellectual challenge and something where often the answer isn't clear, you'll have to think about it and think right, I think this is the answer, but let's go test it, that is something that really appealed to me intellectually and academically, and that's sort of, that's how I came to property. But it's not arid, is it? It has a human application. Yeah, precisely, I think it is fundamentally one of the most important things for people is besides their liberty and their family, it's normally their home, so you get that real human interest element, it's not just sort of, I couldn't think of anything worse than dealing with a shareholder dispute that's just completely faceless and dealing with shares, and it's nothing to do with people, whereas property has that real human interest element, either with commercial property or dealing with people, or dealing with businesses, and if you're dealing with conveyances, it's like, right, so this is somebody's house, it's going to be something to live in, and I think that always gives me anyway both real perspectives to why it's important, why it matters, and just makes it more interesting to deal with. Just to sort of assist our listeners, I mean, what advice would you give us to the exercise of research in where to apply to? Even just something as simple as a Google search, so you search property chambers London, things like that, and property baristas is quite a good way to get in, but then if you start to read cases as well, often in the headnote, I'll say who was acting in these cases, and you can look up those baristas you put their names to Google, work at which sets they're at, which chambers they're at, and that's a good way to work out, okay, so this chambers have lots of people working in this area, these are the sort of, they're involved in these really key cases that I'm learning about, and doing really interesting work, and that's sort of a way that you can work out that that is a set doing the sort of work that you want to do. So if I just offer, if I may, a little bit of insight from my perspective on the sort of other side of it, the other side of the table, if you like, and that we're looking at applicants, and not wishing to age myself, but when I was applying through, we didn't have the benefit of, I think the internet was in its sort of infancy, so you certainly weren't going to Google and doing a certain research, and so where you had some insight into chambers, it meant that you had done the groundwork, you'd done the spade work to actually find out more about them. You can expect that everybody would have done probably the same level of Google research, and so it's trying to find something else that sets you apart from other people, sets you apart from the part of applications that we have to show not only if I researched time-filled chambers, but I'm able to justify why time-filled is somewhere that I want to go to, and I can evidence my desire to go there by demonstrating the lengths I've gone to to try and find out a little bit more about the set. Do you think that would be helpful? Yeah, and I think even just from a purely selfish perspective, it's really important to know where you're applying and really understand the chambers before you put an application in, because you don't want to go to the end of a published process, get an offer, and then suddenly realise that the way that they structure people is, the way that their work sort of comes about, is not something that you want to be involved in. I mean, if I'd got to the end of people's application process and suddenly realised I was at a PI set, I think I'd be a little, I'd be in a tricky position. So I think it's so important for your own career knowing as much as it sort of sometimes feels like for chambers, it's very much a buyers market, and as a prospective pupil, it's very much you're trying to sell yourself there. I think it's important for yourself, as when you're applying places, to understand what you want from your career going forwards and take a slightly more long-term view of it, because if you want to build up a practice in a certain area, if you want a very advocacy-based practice, things like that, that's a really good reason to come to townfield, and I was very, sort of, looking at the career predictor of Junior University of Chambers, talking to other junior members, etc. It's quite useful to know what they're doing at in the stage, sort of, one to ten years' call, because that could look very different to the people who might be advertising the website, your sort of senior juniors or yourselves, the work that they're doing is not the same as what you will start out doing. So it's important to really understand why A) what sort of work they do to see if you'll enjoy it, and B) how you can then demonstrate the competencies to be able to flourish in that career at the early stages. Yes, and suppose that's right, because if you are doing your sort of, and not being pejorative, but sort of a slightly superficial Google search, you will kick up that Philip Rainey's been in the Supreme Court case, or Mark Loveday's been in the Supreme Court case, or Andrew Butler's been in the Supreme Court case, which is all well and good, but you're not going to see that as a junior practitioner, unless you're very fortunate, at least from a sort of frontline advocacy point of your perspective for quite a number of years. Yeah, precisely. I think it's the sort of actually one of the most important things that you can is trying to talk to members of the junior end, and I think we're really lucky here that all of the juniors, particularly at the very junior end, are very friendly, very open and very open to fielding questions, and being able to really understand what the practice involves. It's really important, because come sort of March time, you will be out on your feet in your second six learning, well, you'll be doing the advocacy, but also learning on the job. So you need to understand that it's something that you will enjoy, and also it's the sort of, the type of work it is, it's thick and fast, you have to think on your feet, and I love that part of it. It's really exciting, but if you are someone who would rather, sort of, if you would like more time, you don't want to be a frontline advocacy to start with, you would rather have a sort of more, a practice akin to the commercial sets, where you want to be slightly less frontline for a bit, and take more time to develop your advocacy, then sort of, it's a different, it's a different type of work. The way we work is really advocacy-focused, which I think for most people who come to the bar is why they do it. So you get that insight from talking to junior members, as you rightly identified, so I suppose that naturally leads to the question, which is, what do you think is the value of many publishers? Many publishers are all hugely valuable. I know here we often send many people out with very genius members of Chamber, so they can really see what practice is going to be like at the junior end, rather than it sort of, as you said, it's all well and good, and they're someone off with a silk tendency to see some advocacy in the Supreme Court, but most people in their second-sixth people, it won't be standing up at the Supreme Court and addressing their lawships. So it's sort of, it's important to go and sort of see the practical practice, see what a small clinical child looks like, what a fast retrial looks like, and understand that in possibly a year to 18 months' time, you need to be prepared to stand up and do that. And then the many people here, almost invariably, will be quite a small window of opportunity. So, I mean, are there any tips that you could give listeners as to how they might most benefit from the opportunity that they're given to go out to court with members of Chamber's? And that is basically having somebody there who can ask the question itself. I think going with some prepared questions of things that you haven't got from your research, so if you have literally the website, you've looked sort of at all the resources we have online, we've published on LinkedIn, et cetera. If there are things that you look at and think, well, actually, I don't understand this about the practice I don't, I, this is a gap in my knowledge, having some prepared questions like that is really useful. And then sort of from a just sort of personal development perspective, taking a note of everything you see, taking a note of sort of what's happened, so what did you think was good? What do you think could be improved on? Those sort of things are really useful for your own, sort of getting the most out of many people, which is where I think sometimes people, people like I say, it's, I'm definitely a guilty of holding on this. You sort of rush through many people, you're very much sort of all engaged in the day, then it comes back to it sort of three, four months later when you actually have to sit down and write, write to your people's applications, think, well, right, what did I actually learn? What did I see and you don't have a perfect recall of it? Whereas if you're sort of taking contemporaneous notes and you know what you've seen and you can sort of think about it critically when you're there, it's then much more easy to use that experience as a learning experience, but be as examples for what you've seen for your applications going forward. And will it be right that you're looking slightly broader than just how somebody is performing in terms of their professional delivery in court? You're also looking at how they might interact with clients, with their opponent, with the judge, and it's really learning or taking the opportunity to sort of draw on that experience to develop your own style or to even replicate somebody else's style. Yeah, entirely. I think the entire career, people sort of see a very narrow element of it, which is your advocacy, which is you and the judge. However, it's a really collegiate profession and it is a profession which your personal relationships are so so important and can't be overlooked. So I think it's one of those things that being able to learn from people's soft skills that we're talking the way they manage solicitors, the way they manage lake lines, because often lake lines are in a very difficult stressful situation and it's really valuable to be able to watch someone calm someone's nerves, give them confidence and sort of instill that trust that they're going to get that you are going to go out and do the aptly best for them. You're going to fight their corner in court and to the best of your abilities and put their arguments the best way possible, but also then relationship with other baristas. It's one of those things that if you're working with someone you trust them, you're much more likely to sort of have a positive working relationship where you will get more achieved. So if you're close to settlement, if you don't cross your opponent, there's far less likely to get a better result for the client, whereas if you're working with someone that you trust them, they trust you that you know they're just both acting in the best interests of your client. Nobody is trying to be sharp with one another. That is a really key way in which you can actually do the best for your client, which I think sometimes is you only learn that by watching it and seeing it, seeing how people negotiate, seeing how people sort of what people will give an inch on what people will stand for and say, no, no, this is really important. I'm not giving way on that. Those are the sort of things that I think if you get the opportunity to see in many people, is really take notes and really sort of think about, oh, so why have they not compromised on this or why have they compromised on that and ask questions? Possibly not during the negotiation itself, but after it's sort of taken over on it, move to that and say, oh, look, so why, why wasn't it so important for, say, it's a boundary to be, why wasn't it so important for them to keep this bit of land? Why are you happy to give way on that, etc? Things like that. And sort of echoing that idea of trust, but sort of turning into a slightly different meaning. As soon as I've gone through my career, I found that the judicial trust, the way that the judge trust or in context, I mean, has confidence in what you're saying. That's a very important relationship to build up because as you appreciate court, because it can be quite pressured in terms of the timing. And so when you want, when you say something, you want the judge to have confidence in what you're saying is accurate. But also, I just wonder, from a mini-pubilage perspective, when you are going to court and thinking about it from the judge's point of view, because you're coming to the case as many people not having had the background. So you perhaps have got the benefit of not being quite so blinkered in what it is that you're trying to achieve. And so you have that opportunity, I think, to listen to both sides and think to yourself, well, if I was a judge, I was having to decide this, who has been more persuasive, why have they been more persuasive, and what lessons can I take away from that for the future as to when I'm hopefully in practice? Yeah, and I think it's a really useful thing as well. If you take a sort of objective view in a sort of almost take a judicial position, you think, what am I missing? What am I missing that would help me make my decision and make this answer really clear? Because that's then the sort of thing that you can take forward in your practice going forwards. You think, well, if I had this, the answer would be clear, then that's the kind of thing you have to ask your clients for when you're looking at it. I think anytime you get a set of papers, it's really useful to look at it from a judicial perspective and say, if I was the judge, how would I make the decision and what am I missing if I able to enable me to make that decision? Yeah. And hopefully nothing is missing. So we've thought about what you can do in terms of looking into time field. We've thought about the benefits of a mini-pupilage. So you're arming yourself well for the application process. So let's turn our mind to to that. Now, when you applied, we that is Townfield or outside gateway if I recall. Yes, yes we are. So we had our own independent application process and that's how you applied to us. Yes. And then looking forward to next year's round of applications, we're going to be within with in gateway, albeit there'll be questions specifically tailored to chambers. And then as you'll recall from the process that you went through, we then shortlist from the application forms, invite approximately 20 people for interview and then approximately about third of those come. We invite back for a third stage where they carry out a written exercise under pressure. Asking you again, not wanting you to sort of relive any horrors, but from what you're able to recall of the process. I mean, what do you take away from it? So I think one of the really key things was the first interview at Townfield is quite a long interview. So you have sort of, I think possibly a full hour. So you have a legal problem, which you will be given before, I think I had 45 minutes. I had sort of a Snailful Page of questions. I think it's now half an hour. Half an hour. Yeah. Okay. If you get a short amount of time, you read through, you'll be given some cases, you'll read through the problem and you'll also have an ethical problem to read through. And so I started with the legal interview, the legal problem question interview rather, and then went to the ethics, ethics interview after half an hour, 40 minutes, then went, went sort of across a room and into a new set of interviews. But because it was a long interview, and because I think the panel in my first interview was possibly four or five members of chambers, and the ethics interview was two members, I felt like I really had a good opportunity to show the best of myself. I think sometimes if you have a short 15 minute interview, it's nothing to do with law. It's very difficult to impress upon people that you have the skills required, whereas being able to have a longer first round interview really gives you the best opportunity to sort of show yourself off. You're there, why you deserve to be there, why you deserve people edge. And I think also having that time means sometimes you can relax into it, even if you start off a little bit tense, which is completely natural because it is a deeply stressful process. Let's pick up on that, the tension of it and lay some fears that people might be experiencing this far out from an interview process. It's a legal problem. It's a manageable amount of information. And then when we say, when you say rightly that we provide with some cases, it's not an entire case report. It'll be, for example, a head note and then a couple of key pages from or passages from elite judgements, perhaps a dissenting judgment, depending on what the particular topic is and we're not obviously going to tell our listeners what the topic will be. But just then thinking about managing that tension, managing that fear when you're sattied for that 30 minutes before you go into the interview. Again, is there any tips, any directions that you can give our listeners as to how to manage that time with their reading and perhaps trying not to be overwhelmed by what they're facing? Yeah, I think exactly what you just said, the key to start with is don't be overwhelmed, don't panic. You're there because you deserve to be there. You've got through the written written applications. You obviously have the skills required to get into view. Once you're there, really read what you've been given. As you say, it's not an unmanageable amount of information, and it is there to help you where they don't send you in blind and then have to answer a load of tricky legal questions, and it won't be an area of law that you're completely unfamiliar with. So sit there, take a breath, read it, really think about it, think about why you've been given certain passages. What does the head note say? What's the point of the case? If there is a dissenting judgment, why do they differ? Thinking closely about what you've read, not just reading it and not taking it in. I think it's the sort of sometimes when you've got a short amount of time, people can panic and just read it and go, right, I've read it. What do I do next? But really, when you're reading, sit there, think about it, think about why. There will be a reason why something's been included, and if you sit there and really understand it, you'll be much more able to deploy it in the interview after. And so again, it's not, I suppose, not to get too distracted by the legal material, at the expense of the factual material, because life in practice is the practical application of law, correct? What we're looking at is the law is the law, and what we're trying to do is apply it to our given facts, and so it's always important not to forget that rubric or the context in which you're carrying out your reading. And then the ethical problem is, again, it's a problem, isn't it? It's a problem that actually you will face in your day to day practice, it is not uncommon. I think there's definitely, when I was doing my law conversion and doing the Balkos, you sort of spend all the time doing ethics, you go, well, how often is there actually going to come up? It's sort of weekly. Weekly, you will have these problems, you have to think about your duties, the court, your duties, the client. These are things that are not abstract, and I think it's a really useful way to sort of introduce you to ethical practice. And it's not an inaccessible ethical problem, and it's not sort of a, it's not designed to trip you up, but it's just designed to sort of get a feel for your read on things. It's very much. I mean, I would pick up on that, because I mean, I certainly, again, to reassure listeners, we're not expecting people to, to know chapter and verse about the ethical rules, regulations, particular paragraphs, because we do have people who might not have got to that stage in there, or we might be interviewing people who haven't got to that stage in there, in their education. Obviously, if you are aware of them and you are familiar with them and you're able to recite them all very well and good, but I suppose one of the things that we're thinking about is a moral compass. It's sort of, can you see that there is a problem here? There might be a right answer. Often with these things, there may not be a right answer. I suppose the regulation, there probably is a right answer, but what does your gut tell you? Is that what you should be doing in this situation? And I think that feeds, it's really, it's a similar point with the legal problem. As you rightly say, we're trying to give something fairly generic. So you would have, we would hope at some point during your educational career, have come across that area of law in a broad sense. But ultimately, we're looking for people with a sharpness of mind. We're looking for people who can identify where there are problem, a problem, or where there are problems, identify a solution or solution, of the solution, ideally, but of a solution to the problem they're facing with. But then with clarity, explain what their thinking is. And so that's often what we're looking for is, yes, sharp intellectual ability, clarity of thinking, but it doesn't necessarily at this stage have to be grounded in a full understanding of the law. Understand the law is absolutely important, but it comes back to it's the practical application of it. And sometimes it's your ability to think around the problem, to think broadly as well as deeply that leads to a successful career. Yeah, I think sort of so much of our job is problem solving and you need to have that fundamental ability to deconstruct what you're being asked, what are the issues, how do you find a work around, and sort of apply the laws are kind of overarching framework to that so that the law is important, but it's not everything. Yes. So I suppose that feeds into another point I would wish to sort of try and emphasise is that when we're looking for, when we talk about intellectual ability, your educational and academic history is merely an indicator of that, you can evidence it elsewhere. And I think that when you are as a prospective applicant looking at completing your application form, I suppose it's thinking about that. Yes, I know when I get to interview, they're going to be looking at can I demonstrate how clever I am with reference to a particular problem, but you can often illustrate that you have the essential materials of intelligence by evidencing it from other examples in your life. Yeah, completely. And I think it's sort of it's important as well to think about, think about your history because every candidate is different, everybody has a different route to the bar, but really think about, think deeply about your experiences, what you've done, and how, what, what those have involved really demonstrates the competencies that you need to be a barrister. I mean, the starting, starting phase of that before anything is whenever your emotions applications think about what qualities you need to be a barrister, by the time you're getting down to the right application, people have done many people it does, you will have seen people in court, you will understand the fundamental basics of the job. So whenever you're putting something in an application, whenever you're saying something in an interview about yourself, think about how what you've done demonstrates competencies that you would need to succeed in this job. Yes, that echoes through to the job, right? Because at the end of the day you're at trial and you're saying to the judge, I wish you, I would like you to make this particular order or this particular finding, and it will be, where is that grounded in evidence? Yeah, you can't just make an assertion and think that a judge will just go with it because he said it no matter how persuasive you are, you need to have the material to demonstrate to them while I, what you're saying is what should be ordered. So in terms of sort of preparing oneself for the round of applications, I suppose it's sort of start early, and as you're going through your daily life, jot down things that you think, what you consider to be the competencies of, for a successful career at the bar, I suppose it's a bit like when you do anticipation of your accounts, every time you spend something which is claimable, note it down because come a year later you're going to forgotten every little item that you might have spent, and I suppose it's the same with, don't leave it to the last moment to complete your application form because there may be very useful pieces of evidence that you can deploy to demonstrate that you have a competency which you would just overlook because of the pressure of time. Yeah, and I think it's not just a case of start writing your answers to questions from the minute the questions are released, it's start thinking as early as you can, it's before November, it's before it's way back in time, it's whenever you're doing anything that you think, oh actually, this is this correlates the job in this way. So if you're having to speak to someone and persuade them of something and bring them around to your point of view, that is advocacy, that is something that you make a note of, you have a sort of word document or a sort of a a notepad list of things that you've done, so you have the evidence there to hand because once you've got the evidence there to hand, the application's much easier to write, but if you're trying to think at the last minute of all the ways, what have I actually done? It's a little bit more, you're a little bit clutching and straw slightly more. So then just quickly touching perhaps on the third stage of the interview, so you've navigated the application form process, you've been selected for the interview, you've got through the interview one of the one in three who's been invited back or proximate one in three has been invited back for the third round. So for that as you'll recall is that in the morning, you're set a legal problem, you have a fixed amount of time, say from half nine to half four, to produce a written opinion on a particular problem. And again, just by way of reassurance, we're not expecting people who haven't yet got to that stage of their education to be able to structure a full opinion, it's basically though, can you articulate in writing what you think an answer is to a problem and justify it. Opinion is quite a fancy label for that, but it's no different is it, to doing an essay that you would have done through your educational life? It's a proposition and how can I justify that proposition? Exactly, I think opinions are sort of a neat moniker for it, but actually it's, what do you think the answer is? And why? And it's sort of coming down on a side and being confident in your in your answer. It was a really useful exercise, even just sort of reference, somebody who wants to be a property lawyer sitting down and thinking about a pure property question was really beneficial. I thought this is a really useful way of doing the sort of a useful manner of the application process continuing because you have such a long interview at the start that you really get to show yourself, you get to show your oral advocacy, it's like, right, well, let's see the other skill that are also important and written advocacy is something that can't be underestimated. It is so important. Every time you're writing a skeleton you are advocating, every time you're writing an opinion, it is you are essentially giving your client the answer, whether that is what they want to hear or not is enough of a matter, but it's your view. But yeah, when I say it was a really useful, useful exercise, it was also something that gave me massive confidence going forward once I had my offer knowing that I've got the answer there or thereabouts is a really confidence giving, it was a really confidence giving event. I think previously I'd just done opinions through the barcals and the sort of the topics you're getting on, you never really know whether the marking is actually good in practice, whereas if you go through an interview and you have barricades who are in practice in a specific area, look at your opinion and go, the answer there or thereabouts and give you an offer or the vacate it, it gives you the confidence that you are capable of doing the job. Now of course in terms of preparation other than just having gone through the practice of writing and justifying an opinion, you're not going to be able to research that particular area of the problem that we're going to give you because you're not going to want to, obviously, destroy the purpose of the exercise. But I do think, and I certainly something I found in practice and it's something that you could prepare yourself for that for that stage is knowing where to look. So what we endeavour to do is provide the applicants who've got to that stage with access to Wessel, if they don't already have it, so there's a level playing field there and it's then identifying what the issues are from the problem and then knowing where or having an idea is to where to look, to source an answer or to a direction for an answer and so that you can hear the ground running with that exercise and not panicking or worrying about where you might look. Yeah, exactly. I did my opinion in Chambers, so it was sent to Intuitary Rule back in person. I remember the first thing I did was I walked to the library, walked to the library and got out the books that I thought were on the topic and sort of had to flick through and sort of read some physical literature on it. I thought that was a really useful way of sort of getting into the problem, understanding around it because it was an area that I was unfamiliar with, so it's sort of right, understanding the context. Why is this importantly thinking sort of slightly, well, commercially, why is this important? Why is this something that comes up frequently? Why is this litigated? And I think reading textbooks is really helpful on that. And as you say, you have access to West Laws, then when you want to drill down to the specifics and really understand the specific point of law, you then got the ability to sort of use the key words, sort of think about what you're searching, think, really understand the problem, what it's trying to get at, and use that sort of craft or key words, read some cases. And as you say, you have a day which is sort of, it is a longer time than it feels. And you get to spend a lot of time really researching and understanding and getting in depth and knowledge. And then once you sort of have the answer, you can then start writing. And in terms of top, top tips, I would pick up on something you said there, which is like, commercially what's going on. And it's always very important not to understand that the commercial practical considerations that going on in the dispute aren't to be focused on at the expense of the sort of legal framework. But certainly as I would say, somebody on the other side of the table who's receiving these written opinions and reading them and evaluating them, ones that sort of stand out, so the ones are not only wrestled with the sort of legal issues, but recognise that there might be some commercial undertones here and enable to sort of make observations or at least demonstrate that they acknowledge that and that that might have an impact on how a client might decide things going forward. Because ultimately in practice, you clients come to you, you can tell them what the legal answer is, but they want to know how that's going to apply to their particular situation. Yeah, it's all about applying the laws facts, it's applying the laws to the circumstances and often when a client comes to you, they're not that interested in the law, they're interested in how does it affect them, if it's a tenant that sort of, well, how does this affect my tendency, if they're trying, if it's somebody trying to buy a property, it's like, right, what what effect does this have on the property value? Things like that, it's what is the practical application of what you're dealing with? You can't sort of take the law in a vacuum and I think that's one of the biggest transitions from doing law at an academic level, doing law as a sort of barcle student to actually take it through anything. What are the clients' objectives? What do they want? How do we get there? Can we get there? Or is this one that we have to take a slightly different route? Yep. Okay, so we've gone through the process. You've now received your offer and hopefully you've accepted your offer to carry out pupelage at time for your chambers. Now, in terms of the actual mechanics of the pupelage itself, that's in our literature, nothing our literature is available on the website and there's quite a lot of detail there. So I suppose the question I would ask you is, was pupelage what you expected it to be? I didn't go into pupelage with any really firm expectations of what it would be, what it would involve, which I think is good. I think any time you go into something with a really fixed idea of what it's going to be, either you end up disappointed, you end up sort of slightly blindsided by it, I think going into it with an open mind and a learning mind is the most important thing. Going into it and the understanding that you are, it is day one, you have a lot to learn and you will learn a lot very quickly, I think is the most important thing. And I think what surprised me most was actually how much I took on and learned in a very short space of time. And then I think is something that will carry through throughout my career at the bar, it is every day you do something, you've learned something new all the day before. So every time I do a case, if I've built on it, built on something I've already done, it's like, oh, I understand this so much better now. And that's exactly how pupelage works, it's sort of property law and these various adjacent areas that we do that are sort of that move out from property law is it is a broad area and I think that is something that you realize the more you do, how limited sort of property law and academic level is, then you start to learn about land or tenant law, you start to learn sort of really how does land registration work in practice, it's all well and good saying well these are the land registration rules, but right, so actually how does that work when you translate it to convincing? There is so much to learn and still so much that I don't know, I mean regularly I'll get an opinion or a case and be like, right, I get to learn about this today and it's great and I think it is something that you will really thrive in pupelage if you enjoy learning and enjoy the process because the process is, you will take it taking a lot in a short space of time, you do have to enjoy that I think if you are constantly thinking, oh, this is another new thing, I don't understand it, which it would probably be quite draining, but actually if you think, right, great, well I've got got something new that I get to learn and another string I get to add to my bow, then it's something, it becomes a really positive experience. And in time filled and you have your six months when you're you're non-practicing six months before you then transition into your practicing six months and of course once you hit that point, let's say for example in February or March, if you're the beginning of your practicing six months, you'll get you potentially given the case and we'll come on to add you course and suddenly you feel like you're on your own, so how are the foundations built during that first non-practicing six months at time filled to enable you to feel whilst recognising the apprehension of fear that you have for your first case, but give you the confidence that you can hit the ground running, can go to court, can present the case and can competently represent your client. Yeah, so it's done in a variety of ways, it's your first and second, your first and second seats as it were, you're generally shadowing slightly more experienced members of chambers, so what your supervisor will be doing is not necessarily what you will be doing, but you get to see sort of advocacy done really, really well, I was really fortunate I got to sit in on two high gut trials and in the second trial I was sort of I was doing quite a lot of the work with sort of helping right cross examination, helping bundles, helping sort of draft skeletons, you really get to see it at a very high level and I think because I did hardly any dead work most of it with live, you feel really involved, you get that sort of that sense of urgency as it were because you have deadlines to meet even if even if they're not your deadlines, they will supervise deadlines, you want to help, you want to be involved, so you sort of keep up the sort of motivation that way, but then as you get closer to your second six starting, you then start to shadow other junior members of chambers, so I was very kindly taken along with sort of five or six different members, junior members, you go and see what a possession claim looks like, you will see what a small claims trial looks like, you go and sit in with them, you watch how it's done, you will read their skeleton, you can sort of have a go at drafting your own possession claim, drafting a skeleton as if you were doing it, you sort of get the bundle and think right, how would I prepare this, you watch someone else do it, and that's sort of how you learn even just really small things like which side of the court, am I sitting on, how do I sign in with an usher and make sure that they know I'm here, how do I find my client, how do I speak to a litigant in person to reassure them and tell them who you are, what you're there to do, what can you say to a litigant in person, what can't you say, and that's a really useful thing, there's sort of the skills that you don't think about in the parts of the job that you don't think about until you actually watch them and do it, which shadowing junior members of chambers really helps with, and once you've done all the shadowing, you then move on to the assessment in sort of your pre-second six assessment, which is a really, again a really useful sort of barometer of, right, so go make an application to someone to a member of chambers acting as a judge and because there was me and my, sorry. So let's just let's just take that, no, no, absolutely, so let's just take that so we can explain what that is. Yeah. It's part of an assessment exercise, it's almost a bit like quality control from chambers perspective before we let you loose on the world representing your own clients, but we run an advocacy exercise. Yeah. And I think you mentioned at the outset that your your fellow pupil was Andrew at the time. Yeah. And so what we did is we set up a, it was an application, contested application wasn't it, and we had somebody, a member of chambers would sit as the judge, and then you would present each of your respective cases to the judge and the judge would make a decision. Yeah, exactly, and it was all, it was treated very much as if it was a real court hearing, so you got a brief, you had a skeleton, you had a deadline to get your skeleton in and you exchange it, the clocks were involved, there's sort of practice management type thing, so it's like, right, have you got a statement of costs? What costs are you asking for? What are your instructions? What can you, what do you have specific instructions on? What do you not have specific instructions on? What is without prejudice? What is, what is not to be disclosed? Things like that, which are real practical considerations, which come into cases in real life, as it were. And yeah, so Andrew and I made the application against each other, we got given a judgment, and then there was feedback from them, so the people at committee, and that is feedback, which I took a note of, and still use in my day to day practice, I think in this job, there are very few opportunities to get feedback and really learn once you start on your feet, so having the opportunity to have sort of six very experienced baristas, look at what you're doing, and sort of give you feedback and pointers on how to make it better, it's really really beneficial. And again, as you said, it's sort of quality control, but it's, it gives you confidence as a sort of big barista, is that right? Okay, other members of chambers think I'm good enough to go out and do this. I can go and do this. Figure that balance of confidence. Yeah, I think a lot of this job is confidence based, and I think particularly at the start, when you haven't done it, it's all very new, and it is necessarily a little bit daunting, having other people who have done it for longer than you have say, yeah, you're ready to go. Now sort of take the stabilizers off as it were, and sort of let you go. It's a very, it's a real short range experience. Okay, so we're now free wheeling in the in the practicing six months. Your experience of that? Oh, it's great. I love to my practicing six months. I think one of the real perks of Townfield is we have a proper glut of work. There is so much available, so you can take on as much as you want, and the variety of work I was able to do, even in my practicing six months, I was in court sometimes five days a week. I've always said sort of our practice in court is sometimes more akin to a family or a criminal barrister than it is to other members of the chance we bar. I sort of had through a four trials, even in the second six people, I became very comfortable with possession claims, understanding complicated issues around possession, which I think sort of people regularly say something is a straightforward possession claim, but actually the law. No, there is no such thing, but the sort of the law around it is something that you can become a real expert in very quickly, but it is also something that's really commercially useful and valuable. Yeah, there's sort of, there is a lot of experience of various applications under the CPR, really solidly to understand, it's the white book that you might not have used in the bar school or might not sort of regularly use, but actually it's very, it's really useful to know how to do a default judgment application, but just going in and being able to do sort of practice them and do them frequently and regularly means to become very comfortable in making applications to judges. The way that you approach judges, the way that you advocate, the way that you put your client's case, the ability in your second six sort of have so much support from other members of chambers, what are your learning, how should you do the job? It's inevitable, you don't come out in sort of March, if your March of People is a fully fledged silk, it takes everybody learns on the job and every hearing you do you learn, but the ability to do so many hearings in my second six and so, so much of my own work, I think, by sort of may time even, most of the work I was doing with my own, I wasn't doing very much my supervised anymore, really allows you sort of hone your craft at a very early stage, so when you're released properly released in September, having done a year's p-pledge, you are then much more confident in all areas of practice. It's sort of you are not suddenly on your own insurance without without the safety net of supervisors that were not knowing how to do the job, my transition from second six to tenancy was very, very smooth purely because I'd basically been practicing as a tenancy about July. And you mentioned possession actions and you mentioned applications, more general sort of civil procedure applications under the CPR in the various courts, for those, well, who will have done their due diligence and will have done their research on chambers, we've recruited, haven't we, recently we recruited a batch of new baristas from what was once, was previously nice-done buildings, and so that's broad and related, but is broad and our practice areas into sort of more chanceries, some soft-sea commercial work and solvency work. So have you seen that sort of at your end at the junior end, sort of broad and your exposure to related, but slightly different areas of work? Yeah, very much so. I had always been quite interested in sort of probate trust work, I'd love to laugh at us, I did a bit of that in p-pledge, but having taken on a group of really experienced chance rebounders and having that sort of broad work coming in has been really beneficial at the junior end, because often you get probate disputes which are all lower values, and sort of they might be 200, 300,000 pounds, and it's sort of, they don't need a 10, 15-year core junior, they need someone very junior to keep the cost down. So the work that is coming through to ask at the sort of the baby end has been brilliant, the variety has been very, very exciting, and I think, again, sort of being able to add more strength to your bow, so I don't think, well, how do I remove the personal representative because they're not administering the estate and we need to sell the property? It's sort of, it's property adjacent, but it's all that sort of that more well-rounded private client type practice, I think, is really beneficial both for solicitors, for beneficial for you personally, being able to understand all of the issues involved in a particular dispute, and it's just, it's interesting, I really like the variety in having some days, I'll be doing sort of commercial possession, commercial forfeiture, and the next, I'm reading a will and working out whether it's valid. And then you might have a commercial, or there'll be trespasses in a property where there's a bankrupt who's granted a lease, and then you're looking at transactions, defaulting a creditor. These are things that come up often, and they are things that people need advice on, and they are things that sort of intersect with property regularly. So having the opportunity to do work in this area, but also having the opportunity to have people who are experienced in it, sort of down the corridor, and being able to put your head in and say, so how does this work in practice? It's really useful. And that is something that's an attraction of time for your chambers, right? For the second six, is that you are, if you are somebody who wants to go to the bar, who wants to be a barrister, because what you think attracts you to the, to the bar is, is advocacy, it's standing up, is presenting the case, it's the thrill, the adrenaline of actually cold-faced litigation, then you get those opportunities at time, because in their second six, you are running your own case load. Yeah, precisely, I think this sort of, there's very much, not you'll be 15, you're on a disclosure exercise, it's very much more most of the work you do is your own. Whenever sort of lead and junioring work comes in, it's almost quite nice as a novelty, but like, oh, it's not all on me for a change. It's a really, really key selling point of tendency at time, builders, you get to go out and be a barrister. You are on your feet, and you are learning, sort of learning all the skills required, you are experiencing what the county court is like. Sometimes you are sat in a block list all day, waiting for your case to be heard. Sometimes you are suddenly in a multi-track trial in your first sort of six months of practice. It's a, I think it really gives you the ability to hit the ground running. It's not sort of you get to September, and suddenly you haven't done it, you've seen people do it, you might have shadowed some people at the junior member members of your chambers, whereas here, it's you really, really understand what the job is, and you understand that it's for you, by the time you get to the end of people, which again, I think is important. So there we are, we've got to the end of pupil age. We're talking about the job for you, and as I hope we come out through our literature that's on the website, and hopefully it's sort of come through in our discussion today, from a recruitment point of view as the pupil age committee. We are one of the questions we're asking ourselves, and we look at prospective applicants, is this somebody who we feel will be a valuable member of chambers in the future, who will be able to develop and carve out a successful career, because those are the people we're looking for, and that's why we have such a high recruitment level of members through pupil age. Now that you have transition, you've been there, sort of developed for some time now, but as you've developed into your own personal practice, outside the sort of the safety net, as you say, of a supervisor, how have you found chambers assistance in helping you to develop and follow through on that transition? I find it's been really positive, I think I have found there is a real, the Clark team, all the practice managers, particularly your own practice manager, so the way that it works here at TAMfield, is you are allocated a practice manager, and you will get work from all of the practice managers, you will be allocated a senior practice manager who sort of has an overview of your career, your work, what works coming in, and they are your sort of go to point if you have any sort of clocking-based issues. And I have found that they take a real interest in what your interests are, they allow you to have a real say over the direction of your career, even at a very early stage, so I remember saying sort of December last year, I quite like the private client work, I really enjoy that, that is something I really like doing, and a lot more of that has been fed my way as a result, because they sort of, because there is so much work, when there's someone that says, oh no, I do like doing this, that work then comes through to you, and I think it's sort of the Clark team are very, very supportive throughout your second six, but because you then get sort of start developing your practice on your own, when you do hit sort of hit September and you are then a practicing tenant, that sort of, that relationship with your, with your class becomes even more important, if you say right, well this is the kind of work I want to do, this is the work I'm a little bit less keen on, having that really good working relationship and positive relationship, means that you can have a real say in what you want to do, and I have been incredibly lucky in my, in my first sort of, well, now 12, 14 months of practice on my own, I've been in the court of appeal twice, I've got, it really, great book of solicitors, what I love working with, when you're way to Supreme Court, I am in the Supreme Court next year, which is very exciting, which is on the back of the Court of Appeal case, and it's the sort of, very, very grateful to people at Townfield having given me those opportunities, and I think there is a real sort of culture of bringing the juniors up with you, whenever people are doing appeals, they will often bring juniors in, so Amanda Gaule, when I was very kind to me, and brought me in on a very successful appeal she had on an RTN point, and I got a sit behind her in the court of appeal, even I think that was at the end of my second six, and she, and then got my name on the judgment, despite all my soul of it being her hard work, but there's very much a culture as bringing people up with you, and giving people these opportunities to be, to sort of really develop in their career, it is a place, it is sort of a place of work where there is genuine desire for everyone to succeed, and I think it is very friendly and very much a sort of, yeah, I think you experience that even more when you're a tenant, to think as other people, it's necessarily you're going to be a little bit, sort of more cautious about everything you say, and sort of your relationships with other people, because you are still sort of, you're not a full member of Janebus yet, and then once you start as a tenant, you really sort of get to enjoy how the sort of the friendship you can have in Janebus, and it's great, and it's a really lovely environment to be working on. Andy, thank you very much for your time. No worries at all, thank you very much. For our listeners, I hope our conversation has been of some help, and we'll inform them as to what they might expect, and how they compare for the application process for pupils at Tampfield, and if they're after successful what pupils might entail, and how they can transition through to successful practices, you have at the bar as a barista. We wish our listeners well with any prospective applications that they might make, whether to Tampfield or elsewhere, and we wish them the very best with wherever their paths may take them. Thank you for listening to this Tampfield Talks podcast. We hope you found it informative. If you would like us to cover any other topics or have any other comments, please get in touch with one of our staff team. Please note that this content is provided free of charge for information purposes only. It does not constitute legal advice and should not be relied on as such. No responsibility for the accuracy and/or correctness of the information and commentary in this podcast, or for any consequences of relying on it, is assumed or accepted by any member of Tampfield or by Tampfield as a whole.