S01E14: Sacred Man, Sacred Woman - Part 1

Okay, are we ready to go? So welcome everybody to this afternoon's little chat. So we have James Newton and Ellie, all my gold, and she even more Brian having a little chat and we thought we would go over some of the revelations and peculiar things that can be seen for the guys. It's going to be a man's conversation about men's things. Sorry, but that's how it's going to be today. And they occur in ritual space, in particular at the famous Sacred Man, Sacred Woman, rituals, but also. So you young fellas have been doing, we say, been part of that ritual for a couple of summers. There was this I talked too much, so give me some feedback. Tell me something you learned or so. I'm talking about, I mean, spring on you too quickly. We could talk about like, oh, men are like this, and women are like that, or male space is like this, or what men need, or the whole crisis about the male soul and go into it. But rather than open a big box like that, I want to keep it so that the things that get revealed when you're inside a ritual space, that is different to what you could work out or read about or hear about, or the revelations that occur when you go to that other place. People say to different state of consciousness, but I always find that a messy way of talking about it, and be categorical or a bit Latin. But to be inside a, in that mens lodge, four or five days, the boys all living together in a TV like existence, a round of fire, making offerings, making the prayers, telling stories, that space, that's where, that's where the archetype start popping up. That's where the revelations occur, that's where the mystery starts to reveal. So maybe just in a few seconds here or there. So, anything to share? It's hard because it's almost like, it's hard to put words to experience. And we're not allowed to give away any secrets. Yeah, yeah. We're going to talk about it loosely, but we're not allowed by the rules of ritual to reveal exactly what goes on in the ritual that we are allowed to talk about. Yeah. Yeah, we're going straight in at the deep end for me. So it's a little bit like, okay, what revealed itself is like, got warm up a little bit today, I think. Yeah, well, I'll ask you, James, what about, you know, because you've traveled, been traveling almost all your adult life. What about the men's lodge and what about spirit horse has made you stay, probably, I don't know, the longest you've stayed somewhere in a long time. Yeah. We, somebody in a row, isn't it? Yeah. The people you have done. Yeah. So you could have gone off and done loads of other things. Young guys in their 20s instead, your wild end of a valley and whales are doing the ritual. Yeah. Which, if you asked me for the last seven years before I came to spirit horse, if I'd ever see myself settling down in whales, I didn't want to be anywhere near this side of the world. All right, this conversation keeps coming up actually. And so for you to, you're just going to hear the same old thing, but there is something about, and I don't even think. The reason why it's coming up for me is because we've actually spoke about it a bit recently, but there's this unspoken commitment to life. This one is not that we agree on everything, but it's kind of like an ethos, a way to go through life, a way to learn, a way to grow. There's some kind of unspoken bond between the people that stay at spirit horse. And that is one of the things that comes up for me when we do a men's lodge or when we do say come out and say, "A woman." And then we ask about a revelation. The only thing that really comes to my mind is seeing the enthusiasm in a completely diverse group of men to do something beautiful and to do it just for the sake of doing it. Not because you want to enjoy it, not because you want to impress the women or something like that is just seeing people do. I don't know, it feels like just life that you're bringing little things to life all the time. And that is, that's probably the reason I'm at spirit horse. I really tend to agree on a lot of things naturally. But yeah, like I say, I spend a lot of time traveling and partying and festivaling and doing meditations in different places. There was a lot of trying and that spirit horse. I always say this now that I don't actually feel like I make any choices. I don't feel like I do anything. It just happens to me. And I think that's because I've found a place where there's, there's some kind of momentum. And we don't really know what we do. And you try and tell anybody what spirit horse is. Anybody what's like a man is trying to tell anybody what we do at a men's or just like, I don't really know how to tell you, but there's something. Some magic that comes together. I think holds us together. I think for me what really gets me and why I have stayed here. It's like there's this bedrock of honest truthful, the knowing that we're all in the men's laws, particularly that we're all broken. We're all completely fucked up. And we can share that together. And that's that's completely okay. But it's like completely acknowledging all that complete fucked upness and then creating something beautiful for that just as you say just for the sake of it. Not to try and impress anyone, but just because this what life does and what what else is there to do. I think that's what's the core of what is stuck with me and why I've been able to stick it out and keep going rather than just wondering off somewhere else. Which might be more fun. Yeah, no, I like that. That reminds me of that the story of Martin, who we were listening to in the car when he talks about what happens in ceremony and sometimes the clumsy idiot falling in just wandering into a ceremony and knocking over the sacred water can be one of the most powerful experiences of the gods come into visit you or something. But we're all idiots. I mean, I don't know what if you are I'm an idiot. I know nothing and I do think I know a lot of stuff most of the time. And in a men's lodge, you do see people. Maybe one moment crying and next moment joyous having conversations with men. A lot of men actually aren't comfortable being around a lot of men. There's something I've noticed at men's lodge and then they love it. Yeah, yeah. And there's all kinds of preconceived ideas of people out there that are the guys are coming together because they're need healing or they have to sort of make a more soft touch on each other's wounds and take care of each other or else it's going to be some competitive thing. None of that goes on. And what you refer to as fucked upness like it's accepted from the very beginning from the start like the carpet, the floor, the base of the ground of it is that everybody's wounded. Everybody has a trauma and take a place that's going to be 18, 19, 20 of us and the large maybe a few more squeeze them in and make you see make it beautiful. And when you get fixed, no one's going to get healed. Nobody has to be different to how they are. And that crazy thing where all right, you've got to have the idea and we're never sure always one. Sometimes people say, oh, just as well, he didn't leave because I don't have to be the idiot and there's like a line up, but it's only one person does that job. And what they else does something else and what the magic of the being together in a ritual space, suppose is that what we call which because they're all kinds of rituals and all kinds of ceremonies and I want to make that really clear that what we are doing is something that it can introduce men and women to ritual space. And also be playful and some stories are there and offerings are there and prayers are there a different way of being together that doesn't produce anything except a beauty that can be shared. So to be in it. So it's kind of when I create in this kind of like feast of beauty through every speech or gesture, wearing something cool, talking cool stuff, lighting the fire in a cool way, sitting in the large in a cool way, going to the dances with the women without the women going for night runs, pretending you are carrying our spirits and everything is a little gesture. Everything is its own cave painting memory beautifully frame beauty hell less the idea anyway and nobody needs sorting out to do that nobody's sorting everybody's quirks everybody's brokenness everybody's craziness. people just need like, could you just, can we have a bit more of your? craziness and a bit less of your normal self. Take off the business or the engineers overalls and whatever else you had to wear and put on to join in but it's kind of crazy and rather square and basically rotten society and give you let's some more ancient, wild, beautiful peacock that wants to strut for a while. Most men are very challenged by that. It'll just be beautiful and walk beautifully, stand beautifully. We learn to be efficient producers, conform to something that the employer wants or something that the society has decided to tame us down into and to make the ritual great, to make it rock. You need all the craziness, all the wild naturalness. I want to make that point that it's not about fixing anybody, healing anybody, you know, somehow creating a salve for any of the traumas. Nor is it for traumatized guys or happy creative successful. That is anybody. This any kind of guy can go there and occasionally someone is trying to long by their girlfriend. It doesn't want to be there at all. They are welcomed as well. So it's like, oh you're the one this look I've tried along. Yeah, you don't want to be here. No, well it doesn't matter because you're here now. Sit down. You know, have some tea, have a beer. Let's have lunch together. Anyway, what's your name? And bam, we're straight in. It doesn't matter. I don't know what you guys think, but the camaraderie, the friendship that's instant with guys is just like, thank you. We're going to do this together. We're going to get you going the next four days doing the ritual. He's going to sit there. Yeah, let's go on each other's names. Don't sit in someone's bathroom. We're in, we're in, we're in. Yeah. Yeah, how? I don't, because that doesn't happen in other places. How does that instant camaraderie happen? I think it does happen in other places. I think, I think, I think guys can do it. Yeah. Basically, it's almost like it has to be there's some task that we're all together to do. Yeah. That's kind of what makes it seems like. There's, there doesn't take much to get a bunch of guys to cooperate and do stuff together. I'm a big critic of this, of this other critique that says, "Man, I'm always competitive." You know, I've never seen that in the ritual space that we're talking about. Where, yeah, there's a task. There's a task to be done. I have never seen guys compete over it. Oh, it's like, okay, they just want to get clear. What are we going to do? Oh, yeah, we got what, how does it work? Okay, fine. This is the mission and everyone's kind of, you all, I mean, you can't insult people, say, "We're going to do this. Everyone do it now this way." It's kind of look-a-house. We're going to take care of this ritual. And rather than ask for permission in a personal way, would you mind if we all do this, I usually start it with a prayer. So we're praying to something bigger. People get that they, this isn't just really about about 24 or 22 or 18 different personalities. This is going somewhere else. And would you guys please roll the boat? You know, you say it in some beautiful archetypal way. Speaking to that part of that person that is there rather than like, you know, what do you think of this and what do you think of that? This, as you may know in that ritual space, we never go into this the right way to do it. These are the right thoughts, this is the right attitude. It's just kind of, this is how you've got to look. And leads the talking to him over there and look cool. And off we go and simple instruction and I've found that men are more than willing, just like you say. If there's a task, let's get over that ridge that men are already programmed to do it. I'm having misuse of them sticking into armies or workplaces or whatever. When they're called together to do something sacred, even though they are not an idea what it is, somehow or other people do pick up an even in the first hour I think in the large people have an idea like these guys are going to do something and they'll hang around. And as you know, we're not getting away with secrets. But the large when it's forming starts with some pretty strong stuff. Like it's like, if you had a thought like, I don't know if I want to be with these characters, that's the first place we start. Of course you don't know whether you want to be with these characters. But guess what? We all have that thought. So we have our, you know, ritual play. I don't know if I don't actually remember what point you tell this story. I'm sure it's on the in the morning of the first day because we do the the sweat lunch and stuff, don't we? On that first night? Get everything. Yeah, it was a welcoming night just to wash off the city and get people in the river and. But I wouldn't say that during that first night and in the morning before your talk that there's this camaraderie that I'm edging towards saying something maybe that might sound a little bit controversial, but it's not. There's a there's a point I think when you tell that story of the the jungle story of the tribes, the when and I can only speak to the men, but when we then separate from the women to go our own way, there's instantly some kind of magic that's formed. There's I feel like this you've made that story and it's like, okay, it's just men now and it's like, like, I don't know if it's because we get rid of the distraction of women and the the same vice versa, it's like there might be a competitive man and all of us that might show itself more when you're around the need to be competitive in this world. Yeah, I was going to say that's the common narrative about it, but I don't think that's what it is. Do you see what I see though? It's like as soon as we walk away and then we go right, we're leaving and the men leave. Yes, that's like when the past begins. As soon as in the last season we line up. There's an awkward moment there which has to be dealt with. So I think I'm a someone guy thinking, well, because some of them are doing around and it's like, you're coming with us and that's that. So by the time we've done that, say 150 hour walk and we're all standing in a line when it's going to happen next, then you know that they're in, but there isn't there is a kind of nervousness about it and then there does need to be several gateways of welcome, including a bit of a tussle and a bit of rust stuff, but there needs to be several layers of like, you're welcome, you're welcome, you're welcome, people only here at the first time. Once you get past that though, then you've got a proper warrior band who are ready to do almost anything together. You know, it maybe takes a few minutes so I don't know exactly. Leaving the movie behind is definitely step one and then step two is like, I don't want to be here and step three is all right, I mean. Okay, maybe I'm pointing out my own personal thing then because for me, it's like, as soon as we leave the woman, I'm like, let's fucking do this. Yeah, let's do it. I can see what you're talking about, like, there's some people that have the reservations when you do that initial entry to the men's lodge, which can be quite intense, but I also feel more camaraderie come from some people at that point. They're like, all right, I'm in now. We're all together now. And then I guess you're right, there is some people where they need to sit in the lodge for a few minutes and just go, okay, feel it out a little bit. That like, yeah, so some people, you know, the guys, particularly are also trying to think things out. So what we try and do, right? What are they doing for individuals? There isn't a lot of time for thinking stuff and whatever you are thinking, something, what do you think? What do you think? There's no ideas, right? That first moment we walk away from the women, there's something, is it like a hormone or a peptide or something happens in the in the gland or something or in a shack or something, something, something, something, some feeling of like, and that, that is like, you know, some anciently biological thing that is just a feeling, and I just know, I just say, it's not adrenaline. It's something else is that and that whatever it is, it's a magic kind of hormone. Yeah, it's not just, I make sure aggressive or something, no, but it might make guys be able to go to war together or to defend the village against the neighbors, which you might have had to do, not in recent history or you're not take down a mammoth or something like that. So that's kind of, all right, we are going to do it together, you know, the dark side of it is a kind of rowdy shouting, you know, unrefined kind of aggressive thing, we should some guys get into it, drunk or something, you know, but that's just the dark side of it, the good side of it, and these guys might even die for each other, you know, they're just like, we're going to do that and we need to trust each other. It's not like, oh, I'll let him do the dangerous bit and then I'll stick back to the women later. Yeah, that doesn't work. I think there's a million years of evolution that's saying, now let's all go together and see who's, you know, see who makes help. And then we ain't that there was kind of wars later on, which makes you secretly use of those juices that's called them. Yeah, no, definitely if you can go into something like, yeah, wherever it is going to war or going for a hunt, psychomarist, psychomarist, a woman, and it obviously comes from the people that have done it before, it's like they already know that we're going to go do magic together. So there's that element of like, not only have we formed this band or we're forming it, but we're going to do some really beautiful stuff and some beautiful things are going to happen. So I think, at least for me, I can feel it in the air and I just, I've been very judgmental with people my whole life. I probably look at 90% of the people that come into the mensage and like, what, who are you? What are you doing here? But now it's like, look at it, go. You're gonna add a little bit of magic to this. - Yeah, whoever's there is probably meant to be there, or just one way or another, it just turns out that way that you need everybody. And you don't wanna lose anybody. And being selective about people and I want, I'll choose him to be my warrior band with these things. And we'd book in for it. Whoever's there and over there, and it can be the most mismatch. That's kind of fun too, that, well, this guy, you know, is a business person, this person over here, is academic that person's there. All those are, I kind of like it, all different mixes. And then at the end of the day, when all the sacred speech starts happening, who was the end, then we're talking about the male soul. As if we were all like the same thing. I just don't matter what, which uniform you, anyway, all the T-shirts and uniforms have been last long away. But they start talking to the real primordial male soul that's kind of trapped in these civilized facades, or fronts, which is part of life has to be done. But, you know, but there's something about who shows up there. All, you know, all fitting to some museum is male tribe. And it's not just for young bucks, and it's not just for old elders, and some old people are old, and I was at all. It's just a mixed match. And one thing you can assume is that everybody's broken, and everybody somewhere, other would like to participate in something really beautiful. And if you can win over a little bit of trust, and without much, what's the word persuasion? That Jews, that hormone, that secret thing, that's what we write now. That's what I'm trying to write on. It's like just keep that feeling going. With the guys, it's never found they're particularly difficult. It's like something you can just switch on. And switching on for a sacred purpose, then it's all right to switch it on. You know, you're not just trying to get work out of people, or getting to dive some mad course, or fight pure country or some nonsense, where they're appealing to them to do something sacred. Young people, I would say, I simply want to be called. Because also it's not a, but so people sometimes say, "I'm going to do something sacred." They want all of them to be so nice, and it's all about nonviolent communication or something. Where that isn't the vibe in the mental, I just swear, or this is going to be one. All the crazy wild rebellious, natural, vigor, and energy, the whole thing, like, and then I want to tame down any side of the animal nature. Animal and divine, as we're always saying, rather than overly civilized, tamed down, down, member of a boring society. I couldn't sit in that circle if when someone sits on somebody else, to sit and they go, "Oh, can you get out of my seat?" And everyone goes, "Please calm down. You do need to get out of that seat because it belongs to somebody else." And it gets so soft, like, and it's not that it needs to be aggressive. It's not that it needs to be strong. It's just sometimes it's good to see two people go, "Yeah, you're in my seat." It's like, mate, I'm having five minutes. Let me relax, like, and seeing how men can be around each other, be with each other in a small lodge of 20 people. Well, as you know, like, I always make a big deal about every little silly thing like that. So, and I got some of them from the old Celtic tales because the characters in these, especially the old Irish stories, the film "The Cooled Stories", the characters are also large and terrible. There's bound to be a rock about everything because they're all, you know, then they don't have this kind of tone down, easy to handle, think about. They are all educated to be proper, or poor warriors, and some of them are more warrior than poor. So, they were expecting a trouble at the bank would in table, or at the feasting in the hunt, who goes first, who gets the sip there, who gets the important place. So, they would have these kind of skewers and people to, in the case you just have a rock, and a lot of the stories are about the rocks. The rocks were done with style. So, they're like, "How are we going to have a little rock about something?" Like, "Oh, your bag's in my way, you know, you're taking up too much room." Let's amplify it. Now, like, let's smooth it out and everyone's going to be fair and normal. So, I need more space. Why do you need more space? And I'll be, I'll be saying it earlier on, to point somebody to be like the absolute duet vacator. Someone who normally makes no decisions about anything. If anything happens, you know, and it's kind of nice when something does happen, if two big guys start to start a little ruck about what, and we're all crowded, so it's a kind of like, there's something good and ancient about this, not really okay with, or let's just have a rock, your bag's in there, and we find someone else that will have an absolute word and say, "No, you've got to move your bag," and that's it. And the whole thing's drama and the whole thing's theater. And it doesn't matter who wins or who wins. - I will, I think there's something to that. - Or ego's big. It's just that, but not to ever blank it over that natural vitality, but to bring it into that. - Yeah. - Bring it into that. - Into that theater, you know, to have life, make everything a little bit bigger. And everything can be like that. Making the fire, bringing dinner, bringing tea. - Yeah, I think there's something to that. So, like, and I bring it up, 'cause it's just an experience that you had that I've seen. When someone asks you to get out of the spot, it's like, "Hang on, why? Why? I'm resting. We're all resting. Why have I got to move? I want to be the fire keeper. Why do you want to be the fire keeper? All right, well, I'll do it every single year. Well, all right, well, it's maybe someone else should have a turn. Or I want to go collect the flowers that we do for this. Or I want to be the one to go send a message, just like, "Why?" And then I think, things get brought up. Like, "Why do you want me the person to do that? Or why is that affecting you?" And you have to be a man about it and face what arises. - I haven't seen much of that. It's usually kind of like, say fire keeper. I was like, "Well, I like me fire keeper." That's usually the person, you know, maybe. And then someone else will say, "Oh, my mate, Johns are a really good fire keeper." I said, "Well, he's not going to learn anything there." So, you'd band it around. If you suggestions come in, then you say, "John's going to be the fire keeper." And that's it. No, guys will accept that. Always show cool competitors. And it's over. It will be another mention of it. No, we'll give it down. - No, the song is just done a little bit of style. You know, it's like, that's a little bit of fun there. It's not some lingering thing. - Yeah. - And anything can be done like that. It's kind of like, "Well, let's time to make tea. Who's going to jump up?" Not you, eh? You know, as. (laughs) Who's going to put the kettle on? - Ah, which one of these, you know? - This little retard is going to move first. Right. Who's going to need? All right, move it. And then, the come becomes, you know, everything adds to the style of the whole thing. Everyone awake. And then I pay those games and start throwing things around the lot. Just make sure everyone is awake the whole time. - Yeah. - All right, and then it's time to risk. - Yeah. - It's not about the personal stuff. Like, who wants to be the fire keeper? Or who's sitting where, or who's going to do this role? It doesn't matter all that stuff. To me, it's like, no, it's we're going to get along. However, we're going to get along. It doesn't matter who does what part is long as it's all happening together. It doesn't, to me, it's like, that does not matter, you know? - And for most, if not all occasions, everybody wants to help. So it's like, you get six people off to be a fire keeper. Whoever becomes fire keeper is fire keeper. When it's tea, it's not like, oh, can someone else do it? Some, there's three people getting up. Three people are going to make the tea. - Yeah. - They're going to bring biscuits as well. - So, I just thought, can you cast your mind back to the first time that you came? It's probably the ones that first experienced the ritual space, right? Because it might not be in some of the rituals, it's probably not saying more of a different thing. That one here for a long time. So, what's there upon you though? - What the hell is this? And was there something that just tripped your order and you kind of, it's gonna be cool, it's all right. - Yeah. - Not single. - I don't think they're not single second about. - Yeah, it's funny. - And I know that. I always think, these guys are going to bet, this is weird, you know, you're not allowed to, you know, you can't wear a t-shirt and all this kind of mad, sort of wild stuff that we don't, you know, tend to it pretty quick. I often try and think, I'm going to try to win people over here. But what surprised me more is almost like these guys have been waiting 200 years to do this. And they're ready. It's like, bang, we want to do it. And all that, you know, can you dress in face paint and feathers and I'm like, I'm primal, you know, or you'll think that we like to play with this. Like everybody's up for it. And then I or even to, you know, some of those talking circles are pretty deep. Some of the prayers are pretty deep. Sometimes people feel that embarrassed, that they're about getting into something that's, whether you don't really know what to say, they're not used to it. But yeah, I just do it. - No. - It's like everyone's already got it in them. That's what I really like about it. But don't have the opportunity, like, it's not in school, it's not anywhere else. Yeah, you have to go a long way out of your way now. And yeah, so I always have that feeling. People are ready. - Yeah. Almost there's a sacred hormone somewhere or juice like And Different parts of the solar are like Spoken to without like excuse me. I talked to your soul. It's just like band Start naming the things that the ritual need and like Pum pum like putting try to get the lights to go over you know, one where Where and when I'm doing the smudger something else to like Just awakening things awakening things a little like certain parts that of man's soul a woman too, but we're talking about men today Don't never get spoken to never get addressed and then in the ritual is kind of like Even by a couple of words nothing belongs speeches And then there's something about it. We then we're like we're ready anyway Then we go deeper in and deeper in and deeper in But if you were to tell a vise it which we ain't gonna do but if you were to just point the camps some guys It ran the fire talking But there's something else happening Something really important happening without ever being kind of named or so Carburizer you can't you can't so say did you get it? or You know has it healed something or do you understand now none of that ever happens? It's just next yeah Go ready for this. Yeah, it's like a rock and roll ride It is yeah, it's like it's like a ride and it's not ever gonna come to a place where it's like Oh, this is stop. We've done what we need to do now. We can just fucking relax It is it is a ride that is just going it's it's quite amazing um Yeah, but yeah, I never The same with you James. I never had a moment was like what am I doing this? It was like immediately like I'm ready to do this and it I think The gist of it what is for me it's like channeling this kind of warrior spirit that I don't know everyone kind of every man has somewhere inside them Maybe really really deep down somewhere than they might not notice it but channeling that not for destruction not for competition Not for for war but to to curate something magical and be beautiful And they can just touch the hearts of the world and Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sound too like I'm not into all this you're the chosen one you're the special one Are you an old soul and you're a young soul? I'm not into that but um I just so wishy-washy in it uh but I do think there's for some reason I mean you just lived closer to it and I don't know if it's because of us consuming copious amounts of psychedelics or whatever it is but Like I can feel it in you but even I'm sure I did even before we did the first sake of my second woman together is like There's there's gonna be someone I can rely on that if people get tired or if people might lose the way He knows There's some there's something in there like you know. I know what's gonna happen. I know how to give myself to this And the reason why I say that is because That's where the gold dust is for me in in the sake of my second woman or a mensage It's like the rest of life is dead And when you go into that space you're now alive. You're now a real person You're and my mind wants to go to like you're part of a tribe again You're sitting around a group of men around a fire and when things need to get done you have to do them There's no thinking about Facebook or work tomorrow Is that this is your existence and you can finally exist in that and I don't know maybe it's because we're younger or I don't know what it is But I can feel it in you and myself. It's a lot easier Maybe it's because we lived at spirituals for quite a few months before we actually went into it. It's a lot easier to To let yourself be real again And that that's that's I think maybe the one thing that people need to get over if there is any time that you need to get over it's like what the fuck's going on here? I'm sitting in this dark Dark TP and there's a fire on and This this guy wearing some Jimmy Hendrix looking coo is talking in some weird way and I've just had to do something really extreme to get in here What what am I doing? Are you sitting there for a while and it's like Ah I'm not sure what I'm getting here, but I'm getting it. It's quite amazing the body knows almost because I'm sure guys if they have a chance to think if we get a chance, they might be thinking, well, what the hell is this? But somehow the the physical body which is like Like a magical thing anyway, no something. Yeah, yeah, and like it's a very simple thing to me. It does There's no question of why I'm doing a talk. It's just so simple. It's like, oh yeah This is what we do when we're all together. This is why I sit on the ground for the fire. That's just what we do Yeah, this is why I think it comes more natural to you. It's like this is what we do whereas There is points Where I've seen I've looked at people halfway through the ritual of the four days And I've smiled because I'm like he's getting it like they might have been a little bit reserved and it makes me so happy like they're probably that's that I mean the big ritual and then that is that is incredible but in the lodge Just seeing someone that wouldn't usually get up and do something. Yeah Just get up and do it Because of love because of and I don't even know if there's a because they just start doing stuff And that's like I can sit there and smile. It's like I can feel it. It's happening. It is yeah We start making sense and the spirit starts to move and that is like takes a little bit of a little bit of ashring to get that to You know go that direction like there's we're not going to make any sense And then a lot of outrageous little comments and extravagant language and it's not about that you know It's nothing to be cool calm and great about this. This is all going to be As as wildly crazy beautiful as we can make it and with every little incident that we mentioned before Exaggerated to milk it just for the pure vitality and living But it seems like the template is already made like that's the beautiful thing. We don't have to create something really unusual The with the ritual space at least with the guys it seems like it's you know You just suggest it and bomb it's there. It doesn't need to be named like I'm always saying name It's something that that feeling you get. Oh yeah, he's getting it. He's like you say what it is that he's getting It's just that the life of the spirit's happening. It's that the light is the fact you say the life of the spirit Because I'm not sure He is even getting it. It's just happening. Yeah Like I'm looking at it and I'm I'm not even seeing John will cut to the fire and putting. I'm like oh John's actually He's feeling it. He's getting into I'm looking guy Oh shit the that one's moving there that little characters doing that little thing. It's part of its Part of its little role. It's kind of like why does anybody sign up to do so come out a second woman Well, the fuck you sign up for you're not gonna get healed. You're not doing breath work. You're not doing meditation It's like The spirit says right all of the I choose all of these people. I'm gonna bring into this spot and they're gonna do this thing It's not as if you were sitting around thinking oh I must join in with the ritual work and I find a ritual Muscle and not the other just I know what brings people there because even people who say they've done ritual before I've never In my view, I'm not seeing people who said oh yeah, I should be the last time I spent five days in a ritual space was just like this It is pretty rare thing And mind me just this very simple thing that someone had come along with done the enlightenment intensive and then stuck around A German guy I think it was someone from Europe And it was you know, it was an unusual thing for him to be at spear heart. It was out of this out of this normal box And um stuck around for second man a moment and then at the end wanted to talk to me and he was really really moved And I said well, what I said the ritual really affected him. I said okay. What did you like about it most? It's at that time when all the guys were cooking dinner together and it was nothing to do with any of the so-called sacred stuff Although I think we were all still painted up and fed it up and all the rest of it but all these guys bang around like Chop some more onions. Yeah, put it in the pan. I don't move it around He said the naturalness and the cooperation and just the sense of fun, you know, and someone else playing guitar And of course there's always someone sitting around doing nothing, but that the whole vibe Was the thing that he remembered the most now not the scene with the women or the warfare or the beautiful You know deep into the ritual and I think maybe that's what it Maybe that's what a lot of us feel as if there's a genuine There's a genuine spiritual thing that happens. It's really just normal stuff. Yeah. Would you remember last? I think it was last year and I'm not gonna be given away anything specific to the ritual. I think it was actually On our time of joining it was when we finally have that first meal together. Oh, yeah, I was knackered You're like introducing me when I'm like it's curry. Enjoy it. I was absolutely knackered, but all of us smashed it we had a bad and quit going on and there were still eight people sitting around the fire jamming away like, and we were enjoying ourselves so much that the women just turned up, they felt it, they saw the party, they felt the party happening, they saw the music, and we were like, oh shit, let's stop the women are here, we didn't realize, we were like, nah, keep it going, this is what they've come for. There's like 10 people in the kitchen, we're serving everything up, everything's getting all laid out lovely. And then there's almost a party, but there was another one of the jam session, it was like a natural, ecstatic moment in the kitchen. We were loving it, we were on top of the moon, and the women obviously felt it, 'cause they turned up right when it was peaking. - The ritual has a skeleton, and a pretty top schedule, and the exhaustion seems to be part of it, but all just makes it, it always seems to be there. It's got a skeleton, but the things that fleshes it out, the things that suddenly appear, that are almost like not really supposed to happen or whatever, you can't say, all right, everybody drum ecstatically, I don't mean you can't do that. - Nah, yeah. - You can only just get ready for something, and then something starts to happen, and those are the mad fun moments, they actually say it's great to have such a rigid actually skeleton for a ritual, but the thing that makes it fun, of course, is always in particular, it's always fresh, it's always the same, maybe by some of those guys, I've done it 16 or 17 times, and it's almost fun, well, we know what's gonna happen next, but we don't know how it's gonna happen, or what's gonna come, and yeah, I don't. Then, enough that the guys are having this rocking time in this other worldly place, and then, then imagine happens when the women start to appear, or some reason, things happen in that, of some of the feminists present as well, which was all the fun. - Nah. (laughing) - Highlights, something, you say. So, one of the, I don't know, what do you think here, guys? One of the things, so much talk about gender, who are we going to get into trouble, come up, you're not saying anything, but one of the things, when you're halfway through that ritual, you've seen a couple of days in, so the men have been living in a very separate space, and the women are not even allowed to look at, they're not allowed to look at the women, they're not allowed to look at the women, in a second, the split second in a ritual is like, that is pure, they're not necessarily good, bad, nice, beautiful, and just like, wow, that's that over there, and that's that over there, a magic moment, which cons like spontaneously, it's not thought out, it's not honest to write a book about it, it's that same dunque, that revelation, the body recognizes, male, female, wow, that is something else, and it's worth the end, yeah, the boys are doing something, but when that feminine presence comes in and joins in, there's no doubt, this is not the same energy, this is something different that's coming in, it's just walking the door. Yeah, completely, like, for some reason, when the women are arrived during that ecstatic food making, the energy changed straight away, and for a second, we were startled, it's like, oh, we were so in it, we wasn't expecting it, and we stopped, and then we're like, hang on a second, what we're doing, we started again, but it doesn't quite feel the same, and I said this earlier in the conversation, I don't know, we're just talking about myself here, but something changes when there's a woman in the room, so men behave differently around each other, and it doesn't have to be a trackative woman, it doesn't have to be a motherly figure, it's just the change of energy is definitely there, at least for me, and yeah, I think there's something quite special, and we touched on this earlier about, a lot of people have said to me, I thought I was going to be uncomfortable being surrounded by a load of men, and on a men's workshop, but they always know, actually think it's going to be some aggressive overbearing arching thing, and then it's like, when you realize that you can hang around with just men with no women around, it's a lot less pressure on anything, you can let different parts of you come out, that you didn't realize wanted to come out. That's my opinion, and I don't know if it's because I'm an over-sexualized little animal, but women in the room definitely changes things to me. Something happens. Something happens. One of the things that I like people to find and watch in this stuff is what we clear about, that it's pure horse. This is really a male time, right? So we're sharing what can be shared about that male time, but the principle is that the male time is happening here, on the other side of the river, and the other end of the camp, the female side is happening there, and that the two will join. Those sparks will fly, and we do come together, and that way it's not like we declare it is kind of war, we can't live together, but the idea is, of course, that having polarized and highlighted everything, then the union takes place, and the women are helping the guys recognize what is their own masculinity, their own path, and hopefully the guys are making a contribution towards that, and that the real depth, the immensity of true femininity, or any kind of femininity, has to have a male principle to shine, the same with the guys, then. I can't hear. We can all see our guy, "Who are we as men?" We used to have those conversations, "No one bothers that anymore." You just have the guys do stuff together in a sacred manner, and then masculinity appears, and then when the feminine approaches, then you see it even. Yeah. Then it's like, "Wow, now now it's both heightened, you know, in their extremes and their polarities, which doesn't mean that everybody has to be this way or that way. It's not about the people, but about what's kind of the two dragons having their fight in the sky, and that's like the energy of the ritual is not really a personal thing. Not really a personal exploration of anybody's sexuality. It's just a wild thing that's kind of a feast of beauty. Let's be beautiful. Let's do everything. And that seems to help. That polarity in the ritual gives it as part of the skeleton, as part of the framework, and it allows things to happen. The car is happening if you stick with it a minute or two. Even the plenty of rituals and men and women can do together. But this one, I'm just using the magic edge straight away, and it allows those little hormones to take off. I mean, I don't know about YouTube. I don't think I've had more powerful experiences of the feminine than after what is cultivated by men. I mean that in a sense of. Because we do it in men's lodges, we might do a ritual purely for the feminine. We're in a men's lodge, but we do a ritual for the feminine. Well, the whole idea is that eventually the whole thing becomes a chalice that you present. It's like making a gift for the women. Equif all the women in whatever shape and form they happen to be. And the women are doing the same thing. They're ultimately. There's something in that, I think. And it's receiving each other's gift is the other magic thing. So the guys go to enormous trouble as you know, to make this very small, precise offering. And if it's accepted, then it feels like the grass will continue to grow and the sun will continue to weed in the sky and everything is ecstatic. And if it's refuted, then it feels a little bit down. But it's still kind of like, well, we did best we could. You know, the storm. I said. It's on the castle walls in the name of this flowery message. Seeing. For me, seeing men do that, seeing men prepare for that. Like, we're men, being men. But we are creating that little delicate flower for a woman to come and sit in. It's an incredibly delicate offering, but then what goes with it is the precision that men prepare to go through and the detail and the tiredness and. Doesn't matter what it is, if you ask the guys to do it properly, and we make a lot of fun, actually beat me to the rock. You didn't do it properly, you know. You should have moved your little finger more or some tiny little detail. Everyone has to take it like. Say it like you mean it. You've got to do it right. Say it slowly. You've only got one word you're allowed to say. You have to say the word properly. So enormous energy goes into doing something very small. But that smallness becomes. And in that space, created by men to worship the feminine, I have had deeper, more profound experiences than anywhere in my life. Like, I've never wanted kids, I've never wanted relationships. But. my friend and the partner of my very good friend when we did the tribute to her. I was the addition of the Virgin Mary and children and everything beautiful that a woman can bring to a relationship with a man. I'd never seen it before. I didn't exist to me like I was young, didn't want nothing to do with settling down or anything like that. And then I finally got it. I was like, "Oh, I actually. It was never in my mind before that I can see why people do it now." And then when the women do that for us, I'll be honest, but I sit there when the women are doing the ritual for us. I've never felt like more of a worshiped, praised, honored man than when I do sitting in that chair. Sometimes it can be a little bit overwhelming, but you can own that and it's like, "Oh, we are celebrating each other." And it's very powerful. I mean, it's good to remember that after a ritual, everyone gets that back to being an ordinary man and an ordinary woman. But what we're talking about is those visionary moments, where you see the. The goddess or the man he faces to the goddess again, not that women have to carry that load all the time. It's just something that is one moment at the height of summer. Yes, like you can only see what the real goddess looks like, the real feminine goddess. Once we put all our will, every all our tiredness, all our effort into giving that gift to them. And it's like, "Oh, then it's revealed, then we can see the real face." And it's only in those little moments, and then it's gone. Until next year. Not to mention we're doing an 18-hour ritual that starts at 12 o'clock at night. So there's some deprivation that probably brings on. Some of the visions might be pure existence. And some of them might be some other magic things. But we're done at the time, so that's not a bad place to pause. Maybe we'll have a little more. I think continue. Tag it again, no time, because there's an awful lot there and so much fun, but also. Yeah. It's your name on the whole sling.