Ryan Coogler

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We're going to talk about how to play football. We're going to talk about how vampires are sexier than zombies. And we are going to get in the minutia of the beautiful film Sinners that is up for all the awards and should win all the awards. So I loved this conversation with Ryan and can't wait for you to hear it. And we always start these episodes by speaking to somebody who knows our guest, who gives me a question to ask them and speaks well behind their back. And joining me today is Ludwig Jorinsen. Ludwig is a. Well, just the most preeminent composer has made music on all the films that you love and makes, you know, is a record producer and just is so super talented. And they he and Ryan have been working together forever. So we're going to join Ludwig and I'm going to try out a little bit of my Swedish. Hello. This episode of Good Hang is presented by Nespresso. For those who never compromise on their morning rituals, especially their coffee ritual, Nespresso's new Virtuo Up makes your first cup irresistible. With a three second start, easy open lever and dedicated coffee creations mode button, it's even easier to brew bold coffee over ice or milk. It's your coffee, your way. Nespresso. Shop now exclusively at Nespresso.com and use code Amy to receive a set of Lumet coffee mugs when you spend $50 or more while supplies last. What do you say? All I ever wanted was a really good hang. Hur mår du? Jag mår bra. Hur mår du? Bra, tack. Yeah, what's, hur kan du prata svenska? Jag vet att du gjort massa svenska grejer, men hur, vad är din connection med Sverige? Yes, my brother lives in Stocksund. Okay. So nice to meet you. Thank you for doing this. Where are we talking to you from right now? I'm in my studio in LA, Los Angeles. Excellent. And are you working on something right now? Yes, I'm working on new projects. Can you tell us what it is or a secret? No, no, I'm in the world of Chris Nolan right now. So we'll just, yeah, that's taking up my time. It's really. It's really fun. Well, we're, we're talking to you. We're talking to Ryan Coogler today. We're thrilled to talk to him. I'm a huge fan and I'm really excited. And one of the things I've been learning as I've been getting to know him is how dedicated he is to the people he works with and how he has really long relationships with the people that he works with. And you two met in, at USC together? Yeah, we met at USC 2000, early 2008, I believe. Yeah. What was your first impression of him? Do you remember meeting? Yeah, of course. I was, when I first moved to LA, I moved, I lived in Culver City and every, everyone in America told me that you need, you need to move, you need to get a car, right? You need to have a car. But I thought, oh, silly Americans, they don't, they don't get the idea of walking, right? So, but I, I quickly understood that like the bus just, just doesn't come, right? So I moved to USC to live close to campus I could walk from. And I, and it ended up being a, it ended up being a, it ended up being a, it ended up I ended up moving into like a fraternity house that was only open for grad students. And it literally felt like, I didn't know what fraternity was at the time, but like it literally felt like I moved into a American Pie movie. So one night we had a party, Ryan came over and we ended up playing pool together. And he had, and I remember Ryan had these super long locks, you know, down to his, to his back and kind of. You know, kind of muscle, muscular in a way, because he had just, you know, he had just come from football. He played football for Sac State for college. So he, you know, so that, and, and we started talking, playing pool. And then I remember specifically talking about music and he will, he had a lot of knowledge about, we talked about Swedish artists. Yeah. And that's kind of what we kind of started bonding over music and then that translated into film. And, and so. So we, yeah, we, we just, we were just kind of college kids in the beginning, started just hanging out at parties and talking about music and film. Was there a moment when you decided we're going to kind of work together forever? Like, you know, it's one thing to like each other's taste, but sometimes people work a certain way that doesn't, you know, connect with the way you like to work. How do you two like to work together and why does it work? The first score I did was for a little feature or the student film he had called locks. And I, I played guitar on that and, and he was like, he was, it was just so funny because I remember his reaction when he first heard his, my music for his little short film and he was like blown away. He's like, oh my God, I can't believe someone writes like music for the, for my film. And, and it's not, you know, and that, and I was like, obviously, you know, I was kind of worried he was not going to like it first. So when he was just blown away, I get that reaction. It was just so, it was so fun. And that, and then every time we were together, it was like, it was. He had, he had such an, it was, it was like such a, um, it was so passionate about his work and, and, uh, and it was always so fun. Right. So, and, and we, so we both are like addicted, addictive, like we love our work. Right. And, and when you get to combine that friendship with, with, with work, uh, so that, that's, that's, that's, that makes it very special. You can hang out with your, with your buddies, right. While working. Can I geek out with you for a second? On three films, Fruitvale, um, Black Panther and Sinners. When you think of those three films, what instrument comes up in your mind first for each? Uh, Fruitvale was guitar. Cause I knew I was like, why I knew how much Ryan loved guitar, you know? And, and I guess I never really thought about why he loves the guitar and I never understood why he loves it. Until like we started working on Sinners and I was like, I understand like, okay, well, his uncle, you know, was a great blues, um, um, he, he loved blues music and he always played blues and obviously in blues music, guitar is the, the, the main instrument, right? So, so Ryan kind of grew up listening to that music and it's always been in, in his, in his, in his bones and his mind. And my dad is a guitar player and it was blues music that changed my dad's life to become a, a, a blues guitar player in 1964. He bought his first, my dad bought his first blues album, John Lee Hooker and that music, you know, coming from the other side of the world to Sweden, his life to become a guitar player. And that obviously, and that made my, you know, he put a guitar in my hands when I was seven. So it's, it's kind of a full circle there. Um, that's really cool. Yeah. So with Fruitvale Station, I would say the guitar is, is, is the main, the main instrument. Um, and Black Panther. is the the the talking drums i don't really know what talking drums are could you explain yeah it's it's uh it's the first type of communication device it's the first telephone so in in in africa and and i was specifically i went to senegal and west africa um but this the talking drum exists in so many different um regions down there down in africa but it's it's it's basically a drum that that you can play messages with because it's it's very small and you can breathe and you can squeeze it to have different pitches um so with these different pitches and these different rhythms you can talk it's almost like morse morse code you know but but analog on a drum um and in every village they would have a talking drum that would relay messages to the the the everyone he would stand in the middle he or she was in the middle and then play and they would you could tell oh the king has died or or someone's back from being gone for a long time where you know everyone get together and so and i met this incredible musician in senegal who uh who's who um put together and an amazing talking drum crew and and we recorded a bunch of stuff in in senegal um and also it was like one one one thing that i thought was so interesting was like how would you say tachala's drum tachala's name on that instrument on that yeah Yeah. Oh, wow. Very cool. That's the theme. and for sinners yeah it's guitar again and we're back to where it all started yeah and buddy guy and and who was in the film and who i want to talk to ryan about uh it's just like amazing like an amazing moment at the end of the film yeah thank you for talking about ryan and i'm really excited to talk to him today do you have a question uh for me before we go that you think would be fun for me to ask it's it could be big or small it could be asking him a story to tell it could be a private joke of your many years together or it could be something about the film or anything at all i mean you could ask him you know because when we were doing sinners he was he was practicing guitar he was playing almost every day you know he had a guitar in his office he had he took it with him when he moved to new orleans for for production so you know and i spent i spent a little not a lot of time but a little time on on with him just like showing him how certain riffs was going and so you know that's something you could you could check in with him like how how how is his uh chops coming along perfect perfect okay and only because the movie's over doesn't mean that he just needs you know does it doesn't does it that he doesn't need to keep it up yeah right right that ludwig says like you know you just can't put it down like next time i see you i expect you to be i expect you to have improved exactly yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah great well thank you so much for your time it really means a lot that we got you and and and what i know is probably a busy day with a young up-and-coming filmmaker christopher nolan i wish him the best and um just such a fan of your work and really really appreciate your time ludwig really nice to meet you very nice to meet you too and i hope to see you maybe in sweden uh next time anytime and uh uh tech are you thank you so much bye this episode is brought to you by visible got a resolution to save kick 2026 off right with visible it's a one-line wireless plan with unlimited data and hotspot for 25 a month taxes and fees included all on verizon's 5g network it's the ultimate wireless hack to save money and still get great coverage and a reliable connection now for a limited time new members can get the visible plan for just 19 a month for the first 26 months ring in the new year with code switch 26 share the savings with a deal that is too good to keep quiet switch now at visible.com terms apply limited time offers subject to change see visible.com for plan features and network management details Two big ones, Boys in the Hood. And I was a baby in there, man, like younger than my eldest kid is now. And she can't get through a Pixar movie without being like, Dad, it's too crazy, you know? My dad had me like, Boys in the Hood, like right here, son, you know? I'm like four years old, like, ah! Oh, shit. But then Beauty and the Beast. Yeah. And then Malcolm X. Yeah. All of these was like kindergarten, first grade. And then I would say probably one of the biggest ones was Jurassic Park. We saw Jurassic Park when Oakland still had a drive-in. And I remember being in the car, like, and I used to hook the speakers up to the window. Yeah. And I'm in there, and it's the scene where the T-Rex scene at night, you know, that thing comes off. They in the car. They in a car driving away from me. And then I got the shot in the, like, side view mirror where it says, objects may be closer than they appear. And the T-Rex is right on them screaming. And I'll look at my side view mirror, and it's got the same shit written on it. So I'm like, ah! Like, it's just going to be a T, you know what I mean? Like a T-Rex jumping off. You know, I'll never forget that shit, man. And, like, I got addicted to that feeling. Yes, yes. So I got the opportunity. I got the opportunity now to try to attempt to give people that feeling, you know? So you mentioned Oakland. You grew up in Oakland. Yeah. You're going to school there. You're really good at sports. You're really good at football. I was all right. Yeah. Okay. You're a really good footballer. What position did you play? In college, I played receiver. Yeah, so I retired kicks, played receiver. When you're a receiver and you're in college, are you always worried about your hands? Like, you know, when you're, like, out, and you're like, I can't do that. No, I didn't think about it like that. You don't treat your hands like. No, I didn't. I didn't. Okay, okay. Yeah, no. We was, I mean, I was like. But, I mean, it feels like it would be like you didn't get. No, I mean, if I was smart, I would have been able to, like, I was, like, 17. You know what I mean? I wasn't tripping. Like, I was literally, like, slamming my hand at car doors and shit. Right. So it wasn't really something I should have been thinking about. But, like, now the kids get paid, which is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I was on scholarship, which is, like, the most you could do. Yeah. Legally. Like, at the time. And I was, like, thrilled that I could pay for school because my parents was busting their ass to put me through private school most of my life. So, yeah, I was just, I was thrilled, man. I was not thinking about my hands. No. And did you love that feeling of playing football? Like, what was so great about it? Oh, yeah, I loved it. And were you, you were a Raiders fan growing up, obviously? Man, I was agnostic. Oh, okay. Yeah, like, in the Bay, I was agnostic, man. Do you have any posters on your wall? Did young Ryan have any? Did you have posters on? Yeah, I did. I did. Who, were they of athletes or were they of artists? Yeah, athletes, artists. I had them all. Who'd you have? Man, I had, it's crazy. I had Jerry Rice. Oh, yep. I had Tim Hardaway. Huh? Sure. Warriors around TMC. You know, down the road, you know, I would get into, like, other athletes. Like, Hakeem Olajuwon was a big one for me. You know, and then football. Football-wise, once I started playing receiver, I just, you know, I liked all the receivers, man. Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Tim Brown, you know, Steve Smith, who was, Steve Smith I loved because he was, like, short like I was, you know, and was still out there making it happen. It's interesting, like, athletes just like anyone else are, like, I find, looking for people that, like, look like them. Absolutely. That are good because it's like, yeah. Absolutely. But, I mean, I also knew that, like, you know, I would meet. I would meet players like, like, Maurice Jones, Drew, or Marshawn Lynch. Like, players I would play against, and I'd be like, man, they got a lot better than me. Like, you know. You were like, oh, they're going to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you come across players that's like, oh, that's something different happening there. And that was kind of how I also kind of could see earlier maybe football wasn't going to be what I did forever. How about Marshawn being, like, a comedy star now? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was he always funny? I mean, he's not funny when you're trying to tackle him. You know what I'm saying? Like, I used to really play against him. You know, like, we came across each other a lot. And he would actually, in high school, he was trying to guard me. So, I was dealing with him on offense and defense. I had some success on the offensive side against him. But, like, trying to tackle that man was impossible. So, like, yeah, he was not funny on the field. No. But, yeah, as a person, man, he's hilarious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, his whole family is like that, though. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, our family. Our family is from the same part of Oakland. And his mom, hilarious. Like, his brothers. You know, yeah. But how do you go from. So, you're playing in your finance major, and then you switch to becoming a film major? Nah, like, so. You leave and go to USC after you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I went to high school in Berkeley. Yeah. And at this point, I was living in Richmond, another city that's even more blue-collar than Oakland, right? Yeah. And I got a. A scholarship to a school called St. Mary's College, which is in the Bay. I had a teacher there, Rosemary Graham, who read something that I wrote in a creative writing class. It was like, yo, you should write screenplays. But at that time, I was a chemistry major. So, I figured I was going to try to be a doctor or something, right? And then. But the chemistry labs was not working out with my football practices. I was having a real tough time. So, I was like, yo, I got to get out this chemistry shit so I can keep my scholarship. And that football program collapsed. So, I got another scholarship to Sacramento State. Went there and majored in finance, but I took filmmaking classes on the side, if that makes sense. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I've been learning about you, like, USC, you met so many people that. Oh, yeah, everybody. Yeah. It's like, talking about a team, it's where you met your team. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. Like, all the members. So, that was grad school. Right. Yeah, and I met, I mean, I guess, I don't know, all the people I worked with. Louis Vig was who I met first. Louis Vig, my composer, and then my co-writer on Creed, Aaron Covington. And then, eventually, I met Sev O'Hanion. Yeah, your producing partner. Yeah, who works with me and Zinzi at Proximity. And you met your beautiful wife, Zinzi, there. Well, Zinzi, I met in Oakland. Oh, you didn't meet her. Oh, you met. You guys met when you were, like, 13. I was 13, yeah. You guys grew up together. Yeah, we did. You grew up together. Yeah, we grew up together. I think it's so amazing when you talk about all the stuff that you've done. You talk about all the stuff that you make. You talk about the people that you make it with, which, in my opinion, like, really, I don't know. I so respect artists who remind people that what they make is a communal effort. Oh, yeah. But people don't always want to do that, right? Like, they don't want, they, sometimes, that's just not their first instinct. And it really is. And I know Zinzi makes your films with you. Yeah. And how important is she? How important is she in terms of, like, your process? How do you guys work together? We just, like, since we, so we started dating in high school. We broke up for a little bit. And then. What happened there? I mean, you know, that's not for the podcast, but. Okay, okay. High school shit. But we got back together right before we went to college. Yeah. And what we would do, like, that summer before we left, because we was both on a scholarship. She went to Fresno State. I went to St. Mary's, like I mentioned in there. I went to Sacramento State. But what we would do is we would just work out together to get ready for college. And we'd go to the movies. Like, that was it. Like, we was either on the track working out in the waiting room with different ways, or we was, you know, we was at the movies, you know, in Emeryville and Richmond and Oakland. And for us, we got really used to just pushing each other. Yeah. You know, and supporting each other, you know, being at each other's meets, her being at my football games. She's incredibly supportive. She's really shy. But, like, at my games, I could hear her voice, you know, while I was out there trying to catch touchdowns and everything. And I tried to do the same for her at our track meets. And when I got interested in filmmaking, you know, she was just really supportive. You know, like, I was writing screenplays in Microsoft Word and kind of, like, venting to her, like, man, if one day I got this software that costs 300 bucks called Final Draft, and, you know, maybe one day I could get that, you know what I mean? So I got to adjust the margins and all of that. Yeah. And then she, you know, she set up her own money and got that from me. And it wasn't just like, here, baby, here goes the draft. She was like, hey, yo, where's that script at? You know? Yeah. Where's that thing you're working on? Yeah. You know, that athletic mindset. Yeah. So how it works is, you know, I always talk to her about what I'm thinking about working on, and I kind of hone my pitch with her. Yeah. She'll be the first person to read, you know, what I write, give me feedback. So my scripts are always going. I really hone it. Yeah. Yeah. At the early stages of my career in the film school, she was with me, you know, all the time. She would be in her audit classes with me at ASC, work on the sets, you know, producing and sometimes operating the camera, you know, if I had to jump in, you know, so it was that kind of support. And it just kind of stayed that way through Fruitville when we shot at home. That was when we first moved in and started living together. Wow. She was on set. Even though she had a day job, she would just come. like get off work, come straight to shit. How many days did you shoot Fruitvale Station in? Do you remember? 20 days. 20? Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Hilton, the official hotel partner of the Big Ten. Every college football weekend, fired-up fans hit the road with their lucky shirts, pregame rituals with friends and family, and oddly specific traditions. Good thing Hilton's unmatched hospitality is ready. They know not to wash your lucky jersey. 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It also helps prevent premature grays and improves the scalp barrier to start reversing hair age in three months. K18 is hair science that sees you. Shop Future IQ at Sephora or get 10% off your first purchase at K18Hair.com with code Amy. This episode is brought to you by American Airlines. You'd think sitting on a plane with just a couple of hours between you and your vacation would be reward enough. But American Airlines. What if we gave them even more? With the American Airlines Advantage Program, you earn miles not only when you fly, but with thousands of your favorite brands. And then redeem those miles for flights, upgrades, and experiences worldwide. That, and Advantage members also enjoy earlier boarding and free high-speed Wi-Fi in-flight. Join for free and start earning towards your next adventure at aa.com slash Amy. What I'm learning or what I feel like I know about you, Ryan, is like you're super collaborative and also you know what you want. Like those two things are so important, I think, for any real leader, especially on set. But I don't think enough people know that a set is like a little town. Totally. It's like so many people working. No, totally, totally. And your parents were school teachers. Yeah. Yeah, so like you get it. Yeah. Like that blue-collar mindset. You know, the communal mindset, the need for communication. And for me, it really is, I think that's why movies work when they work, you know. Because you're talking about like mass entertainment, you know what I mean? Like a lot of people go in and go engage with the story. But that's why you're such a genius is because it's hard to make a movie, number one. Just hard to make a movie. Then it's hard to make a good movie. Yeah. Then it's hard to make a good movie that people enjoy making with you. Right. They walk away and go. That was a good experience. Right. Then it's hard to make a good movie that was enjoyable to make that people go and see. Yeah. Those things are really hard to make. Yeah, no, you're not wrong. And you've done it over and over and over again. Yeah. And you've done it again with Sinners. So incredible. Oh, thank you. And I picture you going to your team and being like, I have an idea. Mm-hmm. And they're like, what was their first instinct was? So I went to Zinzi first. Yeah. And it wasn't fully baked. And she was like, man, I ain't ready. You know, keep thinking on that. Yeah. So I thought about it some more. Yeah. I think I went to her like three times before she was like, OK, that makes sense. You know, and it was better for it. And then it goes to Seva Hanyan, who, you know, we were the three founders of Proximity. Mm-hmm. And we got a co-founder in Ludwig Jørgensen. Mm-hmm. And this is a music-based film. So we brought Ludwig in crazy early. Early. Yeah, exactly. Before there was a script, you know, while it was just how I did. Oh, that's so interesting that Ludwig. Yeah. So were you always thinking about Michael B. Jordan from that? You were always thinking about using him as the twins. And the twins was always an early, like that was. Yes, yes. Why twins? It's hard to shoot. I know. Yeah. Like this extra work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, for sure. I mean, look, like it was a hook for me. It was so sticky, right? Mm-hmm. Like, and in this day and age, you need, I think you need multiple reasons to like lean in. Mm-hmm. You know, like, like when there's so many great things available, you know, like I was in the waiting room, I'm watching you and, I'm watching you and Julie Dreyfuss talk and it's so entertaining. Like it's an hour, it's an hour of like two really entertaining people being intimate and talking, you know, that's just on my phone for me to click, you know, there's so many ways to spend time. So for me, like, I think that I'm a firm believer in like things having multiple hooks. Mm-hmm. And, and, and it's a hook for me because, um, I have twins in my family. But I, and I love them and I, I got a lot of homies as twins, but I'm also, I also have a crippling fear of doppelgangers. Ooh. Like a strike phobia. No, I don't. What do you mean? Yeah. Um. What are you afraid of? That you're going to run across your own? Yeah. I've, I've had nightmares like that. You have? Yeah. But, but also like. Because I know what you mean because. Yeah. No offense to twins, but twins, the idea of twins in general is a little creepy. It's a little creepy. Yeah. It's great. It's just creepy enough. Yeah. Like, like, so, so I think, um. Someone who was in the womb with you. Well, yeah, that's, that's fascinating to me. Like. Yeah. And, and we dug deep. Yeah. With Mike. Like I got two buddies, um, who are filmmakers, Noah and Logan Miller. Um, they actually wrote the script G20 that, that, um, Viola was in when she was the president like doing action shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but they from Northern California, a little bit farther North than, than, than where I'm from. And, and, um, and, and I actually asked him if they would be open to. To being consultants on a movie, like to work with me and Mike on developing the characters. And man, we dug so deep into like the, into like the mindset and the dynamics of, of what it's like to have, you know, um, you know, essentially a copy of yourself next to you all the time, you know? Um, but Michael, Michael B, he's just like, he's just not, not, he's just not, not me back by his brilliance and, um, and how he portrayed these characters. Where did you first see Michael? Did you see him before you knew him? Did you see his, did you see, did you watch the movie? Did you watch The Wire? I did. So good in that. Yeah. It was heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. Yeah. Wallace. Yeah. Wallace is. I knew a lot of kids like that. Yeah. You know, um, both, you know, friends of mine and also when I was working with my dad, you know, um, so yeah, like he, it was a brilliant, a brilliant portrayal and, and, um, you know, kudos to, to Mike for his performance and David Simon for, for, you know, for writing the character and HBO for having the show, you know what I mean? Like, like. That, that show was a next level. Yeah. And then he was, he was great in Friday Night Lights. Yeah. That's right. And did you, um, like, do you think it's important for directors? A lot of directors have an actor that they get to kind of, you've had a few, but like an actor that you get to kind of keep working with and working stuff out with. Why is that helpful to work with the same person more than once? Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's great, man. Like when I, it's funny cause it actually comes back to football for me cause I play, I play a receiver and I play with. I play with a lot of different quarterbacks, you know, especially in college and it was tough cause I never felt like I found my rhythm with one, with one person, you know? Um, and, and, and that's so important. Like, I think, uh, finding a rhythm is, is like a, um, it's like fundamental to, to, I think, to achieving greatness, you know? Um, so it's, it's phenomenal to have, to have, um, found a actor, um, who's so, who's so talented, you know, gifted. Um, uh. Uh, ambitious, you know, cause Mike is constantly trying to push himself and get better at his craft, professional, but he's also like a good person, you know? Like, like he's like, when you're doing a movie with him, if he's number one on your call sheet, you know that you're going to have a safe set for people. Yeah. You know, um, he's going to be able to do great work without making people's lives miserable. He's going to treat people with kindness. Um, he got nothing to prove. So he, he learns the PA's name. He learns the camera operator's name. Yeah. The same way he'll know the producer's names, you know? Right, right. And, and that, that is something that I think permeates the set, like at a, at a foundational level. I've been very blessed in that. Well, one could argue too that you, you, you, um, that's also what you transmit, give off. That's your station. Like your channel is attuned to that. So people take their cue from you. I try to, you know, but it's great to have Mike there to amplify it, you know, cause that's who he is, you know? Um, and he's ridiculously talented. Like he's, and he was doing work that required a lot of focus, you know? Like. He was, he was still generous to people, you know, even though he'll come to set on a day where he's gotta be, you know, two different people, you know? Was it fun to call him up and be like, you're going to be a vampire? What's crazy is. Because I would be psyched if someone called me and said that. What's crazy, I, we might have to make the call or something. Man, we might have to figure it out. But, but, but for me, um, what, what it, what it was, was how it ended up working. I was trying to get the screenplay together cause Mike's busy. you know and I didn't want to I didn't want to say hey I got a thing yeah and then have him waiting for you know for for a script I didn't need him blowing my phone I ain't wearing a shirt um but what ended up happening was he called me and pitched me something while I was working on this for him um and then and I was like at first I was like Mike I can't you know I can't work on that right now and he got upset like hey man what's hey what's going on man like you know I want to I want to get this going yep like it's something you're not telling me so I'm like look I'm working on the thing oh it's interesting you're like I have a secret but I'm not ready to tell you I'm bringing this to you wow this is what it is it's twins you know it's period it's vampires and I remember how he how he reacted because he just got quiet for it before for a long time and I was like I was like oh shit did I lose him you know and he's like uh he's like man you know what that sounds pretty interesting man he was like okay okay when you want to do it and and so uh I got the script done and got it to him and then he was I mean I there's a lot I'm not a big uh horror I I get kind of scared at movies and um I'm not really a big horror fan but what's so cool about vampires is vampires are sexy exactly zombies are not zombies not sexy no vampires are sexy there's it's true the end and your film has a like there's so much going on it's so amazing and original IP and like beautifully written and beautifully acted and shot an incredible cast the chemistry between the characters in your film is so real and the way in which you basically create uh in the midst of horror like like love and romance and sex it's just like you do a lot of things in this movie really really well and I would just like to say the most of the many things in the film that I loved can I just get small for a second to talk about the scene the dancing scene in the film um uh autumn your incredible dp first female dp to shoot in this IMAX format and autumn but how did you guys approach the scene there's that beautiful scene where everyone's dancing and kind of enjoying themselves before the horror starts and their ancestors kind of they join them how did that scene look on the page yeah I could tell you um it because because I outlined the script before getting into final draft and writing it yeah and I didn't have I didn't have that that um um surreal like element to it it was it was just going to be that that that you know preacher boy sings and people like it you know that's what it said in the script no no no that's what it said in the outline okay in the outline when I got to it in the script like I got I felt strange because I had fallen in love with all these all these characters and I didn't want them to die you know what I mean like that was I realized in this movie they got out they all got to like get bit in the neck and and check out you know what I'm saying um and and uh I felt I felt bad and I was in and I realized that this scene was the midpoint and it dawned on me that like these these people uh the real people not in my script but the real people that they that they based on um these these black folks in 1930s who were like of age to be in this juke joint um you know they they were they were living in uh in in Clarksdale during Jim Crow they all were they all were sharecroppers um because it was it was nothing else that the society allowed them to be their grandparents were enslaved um their their children their children's children would still be sharecroppers um but somehow they they um invented you know probably the most impactful American contribution to global popular culture and they invented it just because they wanted to feel alive for a few hours you know Friday and Saturday night you know um and and and they had no I don't think they had any idea that the music that they listened to would change the world you know like like um so so I thought I thought about that I said I'm about to I'm about to like kill him by vampires you know like I gotta have something else in the movie that that that is like some type of some type of victory moment you know um and that was where that was where the idea the idea of um um of of depicting just how how powerful and transcendent Sammy's voice um um is if it could call a vampire you know uh maybe it could call the these people's ancestors and and descendants too so so that was so I wrote the script I wrote it all in in italics I clicked italics on it and I and I kept it all in one chunk you know um uh like like almost like a stream of consciousness and left it like that in the script for when you know for when my partner's ready and ready to not to to to really you know um you know read that read that differently you know yeah it's so powerful and and thank you for putting that putting that giving that context to it because that's what it felt like it felt like you were you were loving those characters in real time yeah that's what it felt like it felt like a loving gesture and I and and we felt that when we saw it was so so beautiful and so beautifully shot just the way the camera moves I mean it was everybody working like in concert with each other um we we brought in uh Akamon Jones who's our who's a choreographer works a lot with Usher Raymond um the choreographer like Pitch Perfect and he did all the Panther films I actually met him through Chadwick Boseman um rest in peace and and uh you know every department was in on that like from Hannah Buechler to um our visual effects supervisors Michael Rowland and James Alexander um all them they're all archipelago cinematographer obviously we had a brilliant steadicam yeah there's a lot of the steadicam work was incredible yeah it's a kid named Rennie um Haitian American kid ex-football player huh um his shoulder must have been hurting in that one yeah he used to be strong strong dude and sharp you know um and everybody had to you know everybody had to work together the actors yeah the the incredible dancers um you know Ruth Carter with our costumes yeah beautiful and it was it was like that was the most team effort uh of everything that we that we did that that that scene as well as it's it's it's uh I used to call like the twin counterpart which is the the step dancing scene that happens yeah that was a little bit later in the film yeah it's so beautiful and um I I want to say you you talk about your work on Black Panther and Chadwick you gave a beautiful speech recently um at the Hollywood Walk of Fame about Chadwick which is beautiful and I don't think people ask you enough or I don't hear enough like what did you guys laugh about when you would work together on Black Panther you and Chad? what did you what when when you think about the times where you have you seen have you seen Chad on SNL oh yeah he's hilarious he is hilarious I mean he can do anything yeah yeah no but he but his his natural his natural way of being I think would he did would he does he like to tease all the time that's yeah no no no he was no he but he would do it in action which was what was crazy about him on set yeah he was very disciplined so he's constantly in action yeah and just being and just being like like you know he'll be ridiculous like in between takes yeah in between you know like like um like I'm trying to I'm trying to think of like like do you guys did you guys goof around when you're I mean it's you're working hard no I was I was ridiculously stressed out yeah you know like like like like unbelievably stressed out I bet and um and and we know we know now what all Chad was dealing with you know um but he was he was incredible man and like and like deeply deeply funny you know deeply funny man like he would he would he would tease with with uh with Lupita and Danai um you know uh constantly constantly cracking jokes man like like in in um you know we would laugh we would laugh most about the costumes you know like like just just how yeah and I bet it must be fun to like introduce a new costume oh yeah oh yeah man like like um uh yeah but but I like we like to like some of the props too man like we would joke we would joke and say that he was gonna give me like it was a walking scene and we would joke and say we was gonna give him the um like the the the giraffe tail that he can like that he can like swipe like swipe flies away while he was walking with while he was walking with Lupita and he would he would he was he was a martial artist so he took that he took the he took the uh the little thing was yeah I mean he had like the ability to like clown he was so talented so talented he was gifted man yeah like like um but but how did you know he's had a great sense of humor I feel like comedy sometimes is where we stay connected sometimes with the people that we are with the people that have passed like like thinking about the times we laughed with them 100 and they I feel sometimes like they make us laugh yeah we we see something that makes us laugh that makes us think of us laughing with them I don't know I just think that like it's fun sometimes to think about those times for sure man like um and I think uh for me when I look when I look back at my my relationship with him man it it it taught me it taught me so much but the biggest thing is like to not take things for granted you know like even even even all of this Amy like like um the success of the film um being invited to podcasts with you uh uh um doing um um awards press with my cast yeah like before losing him you know I would be um not present in those in those moments you know like I would be overwhelmed or or you know I would be overwhelmed or overwhelmed or or be considering it to be work or or uh dealing with like imposter syndrome or have you um but but since since losing him Because he would be the one to, like, snap me out of that, you know? Like, when I would be stressed on Panther, I would say, man, I got to hurry up and do this or I'm going to get fired. You know, and he would say, hey, man, stop saying that. He actually pulled me to the side. It was like, yo, stop saying that, man, you know? And I'm like, no, I truly believe that. He was like, yo, I'm not going to let anything happen to you. He told me, I'm not letting nobody fire you, bro, like me. Like, so please stop. You know, please stop saying that. Relax, man. You know, do your work. Enjoy it, you know? And that very act of being present, he was so good at that. So I think about that all the time. Like, even walking in the area with you, I'm like, man, I'm really here. Like, I just seem to sit on the podcast and I'm here talking. I see you perform and watch all your movies and your shows. And it's like, damn, like, I'm being invited to come sit in this same spot just being present. I literally learned that from him, you know? That lesson is, like, I feel like the lesson. And we just have to keep remembering and being reminded of over and over again, like, be where you are. Yes. Be where your feet are. Be where you are. It's hard. It's not easy. But you're right. It's a gift every time you're reminded of it. So are you getting to enjoy the fact that you have a gigantic, successful movie that's, like, being rewarded and will be awarded and you're with these people that you've worked with now for really long? It's awesome. Yeah, I have a ton in my life. And so we do this thing on the show where we talk to people who know our guests. We kind of talk well behind their back before we talk to them. And we talked to Ludvig today. Okay. Oh, man, that's crazy. Okay. And first of all, so Swedish. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My brother lives in Sweden, so I tried to talk a little Swedish to him. How'd it go? It didn't go well. He talked back to you in English? No, he talked back to me in Swedish and I panicked. Like, I totally panicked. Well, you got through the first step. I got, I said, like, two words. And then he answered me and I froze. Usually when I try to speak another language, the people who are native speakers, they just talk back to me in English and be like, hey, y'all, stop it. Oh, I know that. There's nothing sadder than when they talk back to you in English and they're like, what are we trying to do here? Yeah. So you got Swedish back. So I did get, thank you. You're right. Maybe I should look at it as a win. So I got Swedish back. You got the first base. Exactly. He definitely, he was humoring me. And he's so, I mean, what an incredible talent. Yeah. And. The music, it's so interesting to me that you brought him in so early because you can tell that, I mean, this is a movie about the power of music too. And, you know, you have Buddy Guy be like the embodiment of kind of like the before and now, you know, he's just like a living person. Totally. And in many ways, almost feels like a vampire. Yeah. In the way that like. He's still here. He's still here. He's still here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And was there then. And was there then. Yeah. It's so cool. But it wasn't that long ago. Yeah. That's like kind of like what the movie is saying. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. And a very good reminder. It's actually like, it's actually like I cheated him for younger because like. Yeah. If the character would have actually been Buddy's age, it would have put the movie into the 2000s. Right, right. It would have put it in 2002 as opposed to 92, which would have put the fashion like it is today. So it would have probably confused. Oh, right. Yeah. Because you, right. You need a little bit. It would have confused the audience. Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you and Ludwig, you know, he's talking about how amazing it is to work with you, how collaborative it is to work with you. He also said like, you know, there were a bunch of different versions of Sinners that before the final version and working on that together and figuring out what that was and and how his dad and your family. Like the blues. It brought us together. It did. How did it bring you guys together? Well, yeah, like so the history of how the blues kind of became this instrument of like global cultural change was really interesting. Like the Delta Blues, when the record industry came, they made those records, race records. And this was a time where. Where, you know, the country was segregated and the record industry was a product of that. So they would they would kind of put race records over here. Anything made by a black person, the same record might be made by a white person. I call it maybe rock and roll or bluegrass or country. And black musicians, when the record industry was burgeoning, they couldn't tour, you know. But but their records would travel. And, you know, overseas and a lot of a lot of, you know, bands in Europe kind of fell in love with the music, like maybe most famously the Rolling Stones, for instance, or the Beatles. And and then those those guys would come to the to the States and seek out these musicians and then take them on their European tours, you know, as opening as opening acts. And in Sweden, Ludwig's father saw. Well, I believe John Lee Hooker, Albert King was so inspired by seeing him that he decided that he wanted to become a Bulls guitarist and became one. You know, and when he had his when he had his first son, who was Ludwig, you know, he introduced him to to guitar lessons, you know, and his dad made money as a guitar teacher. And what's crazy is Ludwig, you know, how he tells me. It was it was something that he liked spending time with his dad, but he wasn't necessarily crazy about about the music that his dad was listening to until he heard Metallica, you know. And then and then and then, boom, he fell in love with it and, you know, became a became a, you know, a guitarist, had a jazz quartet, all kinds of different stuff with the music school. And eventually he came to came to to the States to learn how to become a film composer. And that's how we met. We met in school. Yeah. You know, in 2008. Yeah. You met at a party. We did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you want to call it that. Yeah, it was it was pretty it was pretty it was pretty dead. A bunch of people sitting around. Yeah, it was a bunch of it was a bunch of nerds sitting around. And we was two of them, you know what I mean? But thank God I found him. Yeah. His question to you is is like a perfect musician guitarist question, which is question that he wanted me to ask you was, how is your guitar playing going? Oh, my God. He wants to know how it's going. I'm so busy. Oh, me. OK. So maybe maybe there's one thing you're not great at. It's a lot of things. You should bring Zinzi in here. She'll tell you. She'll tell you. But no, no, I'm terrible. Yeah. Like, it's not going well. Yeah, it's not going good. It makes the rest of us feel a little better that you're also not like excellent at guitar, blues guitar yet. Yeah. But you're learning. You're trying. Better at typing. Yeah. But the guitar is still there. You know, my kids play now, you know. But. I got to get back on my. I got to get back on my lessons. Yeah. He wanted to. He wanted to check in. It's not going well. OK, we'll let him know. Well, well, I just want to say, you know, before we before we wrap, is that the effect that Black Panther had on, you know, I went to the movies to see that with my sons, my teen sons. And to see something together, a shared experience like that together and to kind of walk out to your point out into the world after. feeling completely changed like this the color of the sky is different and the way we're talking to each other is different and the things we've heard is different like the way in which their lives were truly changed by that film is so special to me i really i thank you for it because it's not always easy to find that especially like a mom and her boys and teen boys and like to find something that you can share in together and love equally it's such an incredible piece of art um they would want me to ask you if you're making another one yes okay that's all that's all i want to know my mom was my was my movie buddy you know yeah um and she still is uh you know um so so so yeah like i got that that hearing that story i can't tell you how many times i've been in the car with my mom going to go see a movie she was excited about it and she was like oh my god i'm gonna see a movie she was excited about it and she was like oh my god i'm gonna see a movie she was excited about it and she was like oh my god i'm gonna see a movie she was excited about it and about um she would go when i was too young to go to see movies she would come back from dates with my dad and she would if the movie was good you know she was she would she would stand there in the living room and act out the movie for me like walk walk me through everything that happened that's so cool my fondest memory was her doing that with the fugitives you know like she's like yeah in the air support jumps down the waterfall and then tom lee jones says i don't care and then like you know that was my mom so like like hearing that you watched it with your boys y'all had a y'all had a nice time that that means everything to me thank you it meant a lot to me too i really appreciate it and i the the last question i want to ask you is um your relationship to comedy you have you you you i think in all the stuff that you do you you have fun you like have fun with the the ways and again which you don't put boundaries on how your characters are going to react to things sometimes they're like light and comedic you have a you want to have fun in the stuff that you make and you want people to have fun when they go and see your films um what what are your what were some influential comedic films for you growing up and what are what's making you laugh now how do you laugh man i just It's so funny. A lot of it for me, these days, it's coming from the internet. Yeah. Like, big time, man. But coming up, one of my favorite movies is Coming to America. Oh, my God. Incredible movie. Like, that's my, you know, that's my. Incredible. That's got my heart to this day. And I love, like, I love Friday. Yeah. You know? Like, that's a big one. Yeah. I love, like, McKay's work. Like, one of my favorite movies is The Other Guys. Oh, yeah. I mean. I think that gets slept on. I totally agree. That's my favorite movie of his, even though he makes some great ones. That is a stupid, fun movie. Yo. I can't. Like, it's so much, like, it's so much, yeah. It's so much in that movie. That's, that's, that's. That's, that's so deeply hilarious. Yeah. You know, and, and, and, yeah, like, like, like, obviously, SNL, you know. Do you watch SNL? Yeah, big time. You do? Yeah. I got homies that's been on there and just, you know, like, like, I love what Mike did on there. Yeah. The State Farm bit. You know. Wait, let's watch that. Wait, tell me again. Explain again the State Farm bit. So, so, so, so Mike is, you want me to interrupt? Yeah, will you set it up? Set up the clip. So, so, so Mike, so Mike is Jake from State Farm. And. And, and, and it gets, it just goes dark. Like, like, like from there, it become, it becomes like a, like a, like a, like a, like a David Lynch movie. But. Oh, yeah. Jake from State Farm. Okay. He just totally replaces, he totally replaces this. He becomes this man's worst nightmare. Like, he replaces him. I can see how, why you would like this. He's teaching his kid how to play. He's got his hand on the small of his wife's back. Oh, yeah. Oh, he just gave him a look. Okay. So you're, you do, you watch, you watch sketch to get. I do. Okay. Yeah, I do. I love it. I love it. Well, that's why I'm so excited to be here. I mean, obviously, I mean, that, that enjoy from, from Pixar, you know what I'm saying? But, but all of the, all of the, all of the comedy stuff, man. I'm like, I'm like, I think it's like the highest level of, of, of what we do. So like. You know, any of y'all that can, that can, that can kill it on multiple levels in multiple ways. Live, scripty, or improv is like, you know, but you would know that from my work. No, I feel it. I feel it. I'm definitely in there. Yeah, I get it. And it's, it's, I'm, I know you're like beyond busy. It means a lot that you came. Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for having me. It was such a, such a, such a pleasure. So cool. And thank you to every, your incredible team of people too, who made it happen. So thanks, Ryan. It means a lot. Thanks so much for coming. Thank you so much, Ryan. That was awesome. And I learned so much about you and about films and your love of them. So thanks for joining me today. And for this Polar Plunge, as we finish, you know, I asked Ryan what kind of posters were hanging on his wall. And I thought it was only fair to share what was hanging on my wall when I was growing up. So you should know that I had a poster of the band Whitesnake. Okay. That's number one. Number two, I think I must've had like a movie poster. It was probably, you know, something like Lily Tomlin and Bette Midler and like big business or something like that. I don't remember. I probably had an eighties motivational poster, like a cat hanging on a branch saying, hang in there. When I was really young, I used to look at a magazine called Teen Beat and I would rip out posters of Sean Cassidy. Um, and put them on my wall and put, um, lip balm on my lips and then kiss the picture. So, um, I don't know. Just felt like you guys needed to know that. Okay. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for listening. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Papercut. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullen, and Alea Zanaris. For Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Now, this is a player in the food space that has championed winning food standards and quality since 1980. That means no added growth hormones or antibiotics in their meat and no synthetic nitrates. Or nitrites in their deli meats, hot dogs, or sausages, plus all their seafood is responsibly farmed or wild-caught. They've even banned some ingredients store-wide to make sure there's nothing to mess with the flavors you want. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online. Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists. 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