Ruth B + Cole MGN | What Happens After Your First Song Becomes a Massive Hit

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When I looked at like the history of music, I felt like the things that really stood out were the things that did, you don't break the rules. This project with Ruth, this is kind of towards the beginning, I'm just like, I don't think this is going to need that. I just want to do this where we trust our instincts, where we really trust the first thought. You never know how important the thing that you're doing is when you're doing it, and I just think try to see it through because you never know what's going to happen to you. Hello, can you believe it? We're here again. I am Justin Tranter, pop songwriter and the host, obviously, of un-famous, the podcasts where we celebrate the art of collaboration, the un-famous and untold stories of how your most favorite pop culture moments got made. I'm very, very happy with the guests we have here today. I'm huge fans of both of you. And instead of that awkward part of the podcast where the hosts, like, lists your credits and introduces you while you just sit there awkwardly, I'm going to make you do it. So you guys get to introduce your collaborator to anyone watching and brag about them in your introduction. Would you like to go first? I'll go first. Okay, great. I'll go first. Yes. Okay. So here today, we have Cole, MgN, who is a super, super talented musician, producer, engineer, songwriter plays so many instruments. Beyond Gifted has worked on so much cool music that I was a massive fan of before I ever got to work with them. Shout out to some of your favorites. Some of your favorite things he's done. Back. Carly Rae Japsen. Just to name a few. I mean, that's a pretty solid view. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to name two then. Right. You can kind of stop there. Big two. And overall, amazing human being who is just so good at what he does. Much a lover. Same. Yeah. Yeah. And just a great, great guy. Yeah. Cool. MgN. Cool. MgN. That was too sweet. No. We have Ruth B. Ruth B. Ruth B. Ruth B. Ruth B. Thank you. The glamorous Ruth B. She's just an incredible human being that I'm happy to have entered my life or entered her life. In the last few years, she's just a totally unique and original voice as a creative and as a songwriter and as artist and just a brilliant, yeah, brilliant singer, brilliant, brilliant songwriter and has a really special, yeah, unique voice that I just think has really connected with and appealed to the masses. And you know, she's a really lovely person when the sweetest people I've ever met. And just someone I'm really happy to call a friend. Ruth B. That was really sweet. Isn't that nice? Yeah. We don't ever like talk about our collaborators in front of them because that would be weird. Yeah. But it is a nice little moment. That's really sweet to do it. I love it. It is. It is fun. Yeah. Yeah. Ruth, your entry into the business was very cool. I have a very similar like we were in bands. We tried 10,000 things begging the world to like us. Where your entry in was very abrupt, correct me if I'm wrong, but like you started a song. Yeah. On Vine. Vine. I love it. Yeah. Love it. And then people loved it and we're like, hey, you have to finish this. Yeah. And then so what I'm obviously you've told us during a million times, we don't need to go over it again. But just context in case there's people living under a rock and don't know that story. How does it feel coming into this insane world without that long beat down journey because I think it's its own like colonized like years of trying to figure it out, but your way has its own downfalls of just like, what the fuck is this? Yeah. How does that feel? Like so young, just like, oh wait, everyone now needs this song finished and somebody wants to put it out. What the fuck going on? Yeah. I think that's exactly right. Like you're kind of just like what is going on for a majority of it. I think I was like 19 years old, I was working at Marshall's first university student. Fellow retail. Oh my god. All my day jobs were retail. Victoria's Secret. Love. Love love. Yep. And so yeah, I'd been making these like six second videos. Did I ever think that it would amount to, you know, a label flying me out and signing me and then make an album, no. So I think I was like wildly unprepared, but I think I think like there's like a beauty in that as well, because I just kind of got it, got to go into it like with no real expectations, no, I will say it was very daunting though, I think that was the word I would use to describe those first few years was just like daunting, but also exciting, but I had a really good support system. Fortunately, like my dad, when I first started getting calls from labels who hadn't, he had no idea about music, but he just kind of studied the industry for like a week straight. So like was in the basement on his computer like shut up. Yeah. Like he was like shut up. Yeah, shut up very. Crash course. No, he was like, I'm going to make sure you're good. So he was a big help, but yeah, it was, it was intimidating. What did your dad do in his daily life besides study the internet about the music? He was a realtor. So he's, so you understand like random contracts and business. Yeah. Also really, really, it's a very, like it's kind of like, I'm just going to decide what this house costs. Exactly. I can get someone to do it. Which is actually very secure for the music, but I was like, I think my record deals should be this. But I think that's why it worked out because he was like, oh, they said that. No, I'm going to say this, like kind of mean, and I'm the complete opposite. I'm just like, okay, like I'm scared and he's like, don't, I'll scare them. So he's like, he helped a lot in that sense. But yeah, it was, I look back at that time now and I'm like, wow, like that was crazy. I like it. It's crazy. Cool. What was your first entry into like something that you would consider the actual music business? Yeah. Well, I, okay, I, I'm trying to figure out where it started is kind of a gray area. I mean, I was obsessed with a guy named Ariel Pink, of course, who's an incredibly brilliant artist, rock star madman. And I heard his music, a friend played me his music in like 2005, I think. And at the time, I just feel like I, it just sounded so different than everything and he was just kind of like creating these worlds in his bedroom that, and I just felt like, okay, wow, this guy is incredible. This music is the truth. I'm going to find that guy and I'm going to go play music with him. You know what? So yeah, and so we, so I moved to LA. I literally met him within three or four months of being here. I feel like back then it was really uncool to move to LA like 2006. Oh, no, you could not. Did you live in New York? I lived in New York before that. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. And I'm from the Bay Area. Those two places just hate LA. You know, so it's a one way rivalry because LA loves everywhere else, but no, but so I, it is funny. LA is never like picking a fight some random city, but everyone is not as much now, but back then it was like, you're going to move to LA. You're trash. No, exactly. No, and that made it even more appealing to me, but I just like, you know what? I am trash. No, but, and so I, you know, literally walking down the street in Echo Park on sunset ran into people who, you know, people would be like, oh, those are new people. Who are they? Because there's just, there wasn't that many people moving here. Yeah. And it was just, so someone spotted us. We just, you know, met somebody at a coffee shop. They were friends with Ariel, whatever. I'm pretty quickly. I met Ariel and not long after that was up all night at his house playing music and jamming and then like few months after that, he's like, yeah, my guitar player quit. Like, do you want to play a guitar with me? Dream fulfilled already. So then I was just joined his band and basically spent the next two years touring the world with him in a van driving ourselves really just like dirty touring, you know, so. sleeping on people's couches and stuff, but it was incredible because I was playing music that was actually from my favorite music in the entire world all the time. - Yeah, that's not normal. That like your first sort of proper gig is to me you deeply loved. - No, it was amazing. I feel so lucky to have been a part of that. That kind of culminated with us getting signed to 4AD and making like a proper record, which was kind of the best of everything to me because I had grown up making music in my bedroom and recording, kind of home recording, and even more than live music, I loved records. And so I think my dream was always to make records and be a record producer. And so then we got to make the record together. I kind of realized that being in a live band was not exactly for me. I was not one of those people that came alive on stage. Like I felt like I was just so nervous before every show. And at a certain point I was like, "Why am I putting myself through this?" - How do these very bright lights feel on you today and you okay? - No, no, this is great. This isn't more like a studio, you know? - Yeah, that's true, that's true. - No, but and so then, but it was great. So I quit playing with them live, but I got to make a lot of his subsequent albums with him. So that was kind of the first thing. - What do you guys, this is questions for both of you guys. What do you think, like what was your possible biggest misunderstanding about what the actual music business was or even what the actual record making process was? - It can be a creative question too, not just a business question. - I think for me it was definitely like, like the music making part is so big and it's my favorite part, but it's like, there's so much more other stuff. I think when you're growing up you're like, I just want to be on stage and I want to be in studios writing music and like that's what you think it is. And then you get in and it's like (beep) like there's like so much more to it. - Yeah. - That's like not as, you know, there's a lot of work actually. - Yeah. - The creative part doesn't feel like work to me because I love it so much. So I'm like, I'm so happy to be in the studio. Even when I can't write even when I'm like, feel like I'm sucking, like I still love it. - Yeah. - But I think it was just all the other moving parts, like all the other people that are involved and like there's like so much at stake. And I think that was definitely when I got into it. I was like, whoa, this isn't just about being in the studio and singing, like there's a lot of moving parts here. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I was so, when I was young, I was so desperate to be famous. You know, just. - I remember you told me that when we met, too. - I thought I was so. - I remember her. - Looking back, it's like, oh my God, being famous is insane. - Yeah. - But you're young and you're just like, it was so funny. - Of course. - But now, of course, as a professional songwriter, making the music is 100% my favorite part. But when I was young, I was like, I can't wait to do photoshoots and interviews. - Yeah. - I was. - Same. - Same. - And then I started doing it. - Yeah, I'm like, I hate this (beep) can I go back to the studio? - Yeah. - What do you think your biggest misconception was? - I mean, those first few years in LA were weird. I mean, the thing that I found about LA versus New York, I mean, in New York, I was just in college and stuff. But I felt like New York was a little, it was hard to access in a way. I felt like people were a little more cold and removed and were kind of like, you got to put in your work before I even acknowledged your, you know, look your direction. - Yeah. - It was like people were so, you know, I got meetings at labels immediately. A and R is one to meet me and stuff. And it was, you know, it's 'cause they want to be maybe the first one to kind of say they met you or. - Yeah. - It's not without its own sort of like cynical side to it or something, but it was much more accessible. I felt like it was wanted to meet me. And not that that led to much, really. But like a few things did. But the thing that I felt that was challenging for me was, I think being from, well, meeting all these people and I felt like all these LA kids were already, just had this inherent sense of how to kind of like brand themselves, market themselves. They had these like personas, they knew who they were and it was effortless. I just, I think growing up in proximity to like the culture industry, I just felt like they knew how to do this and I had no idea. Like my parents were not anywhere related to the entertainment business. They were social workers basically, you know? And I came down here and so when I did those meetings and I kind of was telling them, oh yeah, I played this guy Ariel Pink and they were kind of like, oh, that's weird music, you know? And then I started to feel, I do weird music. Oh God, do I have to do something? And I was starting to think, God, I gotta figure out how to like make something more appealing or like change what I'm doing to make it kind of like be more pop or work in some way. And I think that was just, it took me a really long time to shake off that energy. 'Cause I think that was a wrong lesson to take from it. I think really the lesson was more that, yeah, you need to learn the business and the ins and outs of it and how to navigate that. But don't change what you're doing, you know what I mean? - When I started writing for other people, I just, I assumed I have to like chase the trend. And I was just, which at the time was like flow rider, which no shade, slay queen. You know what I mean, but I realized quickly that like I'm not gonna write a good flow rider chorus. And then was like, well, what the fuck am I supposed to do? And the first day ever wrote a song to just pitch to someone there was no artist in the room that like was a song I actually would listen to on purpose was my first cut. And I think that some people are really good at chasing trends and like, oh, someone said I make weird music. I gotta like move it to the middle. Some people can do that really well. And I realized quickly, like within a month and a half that like I can't do that. And I think that is 'cause I am a big fan of LA and I am a big fan of like the songwriting scene even though it can be daunting and you meet 75 people in a month, which I'm sure you've been through. We'll talk about it. I do love how collaborative LA is. Like you said, people just like, come on in, let's do it. But I think that the big, you have to still figure out what you are actually good at. And if you are someone who can jump on a trend and kill it and get rich as fuck doing it, slay. But I just realized quickly, I couldn't do it. And like me coming from a glam punk band is why artists wanted to work with me and me being a little bit weirder to use your word is why they were like, no, but that's cool. That's cool. Ruth, with your first song you ever put out going insane and then Dan DeLion's going crazy viral years after you put it out. One, what a gift. Just like you're sitting at home, it was in COVID, right? - Did he, yeah. - Sitting at home in COVID and this older song is going bonkers. What I want to know though is how does that with your first song going crazy and then this old song going crazy years later? How does that affect how you write? Does that ever get in your head about what do I need to write to do this again or does it set you free and go, I have no control over what people are going to grab onto? Like how do you creatively process that? - It's a great question. - It's Morgan's question, it's not mine. - It's a stunning question, Morgan. Honestly, I think it's a little bit of both. I think just even after "Lost Boy," that was a massive thing that I had to struggle with was like, okay, how do I do this again? You're 20 years old, you're signed to a major label, your first song does crazy and then it's like, okay, what now? And I think with "Dandelions" happening years later, I think that was almost a sense of validation of like, you know, "Lost Boy" happened and then the label I was signed to at the moment was like, okay, this album was like, whatever. And "Dandelions" was on that album and like, I believed in it. I believed in like a lot of the songs on there. - Yeah. - Maybe they didn't pop off immediately, but I think, you know, sitting there in my room five years later with COVID and watching that happen, that was what kind of gave me like, all right, you know, like, fuck that, like I don't have to write the way that to like emulate something I've already done. I think I just need to write and like put it out there and the bright people are gonna find it at the right time. And so I definitely, in the beginning, struggled a lot with like, okay, how do I do? Another "Lost Boy," you know? I think it's just time and like, writing more and more, you kind of just realize that just the more honest you are, the better it is because you want to be proud of something whether it does good or doesn't because in the end, that's kind of really what matters. And then hopefully, you know, you have a moment like "Dandelions," but even if not, if you love what you do to me, that's like kind of all that matters at this point. - I think that that is, you know, we're lucky that a lot of people listen to this podcast or watch this podcast 'cause they are actually trying to learn. - Love. - I think that like, it is, we talk a lot about craft and we will talk about like specifics of craft, but I think like overcoming meant your own mental (beep) is such an important part of making music. That like, if you don't mind me pushing a little bit harder on that question of like, when, so when you're in that moment, you're like, I have to do this again. How do you get that out of your head? Like, how do you just go (beep) and I have to write and stop thinking about it? - That is like a really good question and I'm trying to think like, I think, I don't know because that first, that first like album of my life and that first chapter is like such a blur now because like it was, it truly was so crazy. And again, I mentioned like the growing up life in a small town in Canada, like it wasn't like I was prepared for it, but I think honestly, I give myself a little bit of credit. 'cause even at that age, I kind of was like, "You know what, I just wanna write." Like, I told everyone, I was like, "Just let me write." Like, I wrote this Peter Pan song on my own. Like, clearly it's something. Like, there's something here. So, just let me do it. And so, I did. And I don't know if I was ever like, 'cause I remember, I was like, "Do I just make a whole Disney album?" Like, "Do I just, do I just pick every thing?" Like, I'm like, "No, why?" Like, who, like, we're puns on, like, "Do I just do a song for all of us?" But it was incredible. It probably would have won. I would miss it. Yeah. I know, that's my plan when I'm like, when I'm like, 80 and ready to retire. I love it. The final album will just be like, lost way, and then like, just every Disney character with like, their own little plot twist. It kind of sounds like an awesome concept. No, it's amazing. And like, the first album was like, a half of my face picture of when I was like 19. And so, the final one will be like, the other half. I'll be 80. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And it'll be like, a quick-- Love that you have this point out of it. Yeah, I love it. You have your swan album, your swan song, your swan album already. And you're like, here we go. No, if you're ready, I've thought about this. Yeah. But yeah, I think I did a good job of just being like, I'm just going to write and hope for the best, you know? Cool, as a producer, living in this-- making music in this world where like, the old school way of marketing is over. And how a label or how an artist is going to break a hit no one fucking knows. Does that set you free creatively? Or does that-- or how does-- and I'm literally asking for advice on myself. Because I'm like, when my first six years of success, songs still broke from radio. And I knew really well how to write a [BLEEP] radio smash, which by the way, no one taught me. I just made it up. And all of a sudden, I was like, oh, I think I do this really well. Wish I would have done it for my own band, but I couldn't figure it out then. But I wrote '34, I really figured it out. And now it's just like, who knows what's going on here. How do you creatively, when you're trying to help an artist get across the finish line, when you're trying to decide what something sounds like, what are you thinking about knowing that traditional marketing is dead? You know, it is interesting, because I feel like growing up, the music I loved was kind of things that didn't fit squarely into a genre. Like, I was obsessed with outcast. Oh, the best. Because they just were just so unique. They made music that's so unlike anything else. But they just once in a while had these completely infectious pop smashes that were just totally unique and just broke the mold every single time. And so-- and that's the kind of thing I wish for. And I felt so-- I remember somebody asking me when I was a kid. I went to like summer camp or something. And then somebody said, are you a rocker or a rapper? I was like, oh, [BLEEP] like I like both. But-- Yeah, genre was important when we were-- Yes, very tribal, you know? genre like defined who you were. Absolutely, like how you dress, everything. And there's something cool about that. But at the same time, the world that I wished for was one in which we weren't whatever in close by the same-- I love the music you have two options to rock or rap. That's it. Pick one. Literally. But I mean, it was the '90s, I guess. But no, so I think that-- but anyway, I feel like one day I woke up and it was kind of like that universe that I wished for musically was actually like what we were living in, you know what I mean? And now everything is kind of genre bending, genre lists. And it's interesting because yes, it absolutely sets me free. And I'm so happy that this is the direction of music's gone. At the same time, I do think it can be challenging when there aren't those kind of bounds on stuff or aren't those guidelines about. And I was never the producer that was like, OK, I'm going to figure out exactly what this genre means. And what that genre means. And it's got to have this type of drum sound and the vocal sound like this on that genre. I was-- since the music I loved wasn't that, even though I loved pop music too. But the music that I loved was a little more left-leaning, I guess, that-- and when I looked at the history of music, I felt like the things that stood out were the things that did break the rules. Nonetheless, I felt like, OK, so when we were starting to work on our album, it took us a second to figure out what the bounds were for that. And I feel like you kind of have to design for it. I try to, for a project, design some kind of guidelines of what I think is working. And my picture for Ruth-- I'd listen to Ruth's music when we first got introduced. And I wasn't familiar because I don't just so much music. I don't know. And I wasn't on social media. And I was just under a rock, basically, listening to 60s music. But I listened to the music and I said, OK, so it's clearly I picture Ruth in front of a piano. This is the image I see when I listen to her music. And so I thought, OK, for this album, I still-- I think it needs to be Ruth in front of a piano that you see. But how can we then elevate that? And she's lived a lot of life since her last music. And how can we have that reflect in how that-- that we just add into that image and bring a little bit more of her story in and bring even in a sonic way. It doesn't have to be the piano sounds. There's a kind of a wide range of piano sounds that we can do. And how can we explore within those bounds of the piano and stuff, but how to just elevate and try things that she hadn't tried before that-- I think you did an amazing job when I was listening to it this morning, because I don't know when this episode drops. But the album is not out yet, but it's out very soon. Very soon, yeah. So I got a little preview. And I am familiar with Ruth's work, because we worked together 10 years ago. We did. And I loved how sonnically it still feels like a piano singer-songwriter. But it's really a elevation for you. It's a growth for you. There's so many more alternative and indie textures that I was not expecting. And it was a pleasant surprise. But it's still-- because I'm a big singer-songwriter geek. So it still feels like a singer-songwriter album. It just takes you to a new place. And I think you guys did an amazing job with that. When you say you had to figure out what the boundaries were, I'm very curious about that. How did you figure out what it was? How did you-- is it just trial and error of like, OK, this is what this album sounds like? Or what was the process of getting there? I mean, I think that we-- Ruth had done quite a bit of co-writing in the past. But I think that every co-write is different. And every collaboration is unique. And so we had to find how we were going to collaborate with the skills that we're bringing to the table. And I think that, yeah, it does take trial and error. And I think at first-- well, actually, the first few songs we started, you had brought in most of song already written. And so that was a cool way to actually start, because we could kind of start to experiment with something that was already strong. And those songs made the album, too. And they're some of my favorites. But then we were like, OK, how can now we set forth on the next leg of this journey? And try something different and write together. And that took a second, because I think one of the first days, I remember me starting to play some chords or try to make some music to for us to write to. And then you were kind of sitting there, and I remember you just being like a little frozen of like, how do I now just on the spot write a song? You know what I mean? Yeah. And I just remember being like, hey, it doesn't have to be-- we don't need to feel this pressure. We don't need to have this idea that you're just going to pull out of your [BLEEP] just like an incredible top line in lyric right now with nothing, you know what I mean? And so instead, I think after a few days of working together, I remember you getting on the mic at some point and just sort of trying melodies, trying singing melodies. And that was something you hadn't done before. Were you saying lyric lists? Yeah, I remember that whole was like, why don't we just set up the mic right now and just sing? And I was mortified. Oh, I still to this day hate it. I was horrified because I'm like, I have such a routine way of writing. Yeah. And he was like, just see, what's the worst I can have? But you can stay seated and comfortable. It's not like you have to stand and feel the pressure. He's like, they might just do it. And after a few times, I was like, wait, I kind of love this. And we would pull out lyrics from those little mumbly things, and that would be the genesis of a new song. You were freestyling this song, right then. And it was actually incredible to see. And to know that that was the first time-- I mean, it's funny you say you were scared because maybe I sensed a little fear at first, but actually by the second or third time, you were in your bed. No, I look at it. I was like, I'm going to do this every day. Wow. Yeah, I still hate it. I don't know. But I'm much more like-- we all do lots of things when we co-write. But like, lyrics are my favorite part. And so for me, the freestyling in the melodies, I'm just like, nine out of 10 of these are going to be so bad. Yeah. But I think people-- There were some bad ones, for sure. Well, I think even the best melody writers of all time are going to have some bad ones, right? But because it's not my strength, they're mostly bad. And I'm just like, OK. Nevermind. Here, either of you worked with Misha, amazing song. Right after that. Beast. And that's how she writes every song. And we were writing together a couple of weeks ago. She was like, why don't you try it? I was like, after you just killed it for 20 minutes, you want me to go? But I'm such a fan of hers. I was like, if Misha's asking me freestyle, I'm going to do this. And it was kind of nice to be like, 96 years old and still be afraid of something. - Hello, my little, un-famous friends. So, the thing about the algorithm, low-miss algorithm, is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast, unless she thinks that people love it. So if you follow this podcast, one of the old school YouTubers say, like, subscribe, and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the un-famous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration, reach more people. So please, do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. - A hair layer. - It's kind of awesome. - You know what I mean? - You've got to step outside your comfort zone sometimes, you know what I mean? And collaboration, hopefully the collaboration allows you to do that, you know what I mean? But I think that, yeah, I mean, so getting to the lyrics, so you're right, that then became the next step. We had all these songs that had beautiful melodies with a few lyrics. The thing, I think we knew that it was great already, though, because we were listening to it without lyrics and we were like crying. - Yeah, we were listening to it. - Which song are we talking about? If you can remember. - There's a few, I definitely remember, like, who's gonna love you? - Yes. - It was one of those. - Breathe. - Breathe. - Oh my god, breathe was like the OG. There's a song on there called Breathe, where it was just like straight melody where like, that is amazing. - Because her voice, and I mean, it was already so much of it, was there even without the lyrics, you could picture what the song was about. I mean, because there was a few words, and that's the beautiful, magical thing about that. Sometimes there's, you could hear a few things, and maybe what I heard was different from a root third, but we kind of listened back to it and tried to let that then guide us. I was kind of like, okay, I think it's about this. And actually, interesting thing with that song, in particular, right, was when we were trying to figure out, we were doing the archaeology of what this actually is, and kind of dusting off and trying to figure out, I think it's this, I think it's that. I kind of had an idea. I was like, I think it's this kind of thing. We started, we basically wrote the whole lyric together of kind of what I heard. And then I think actually, to Ruth's credit, an amazing moment in the process was, you being like, you know what, I like this, but I actually think this isn't the song. I actually think the song is something else, and I just need to take my time with it, and figure out what those lyrics are. And we did, that's the other thing, I think, is just giving it the proper time, you know? How do you, how do you find the confidence to go, no, I just need time? Or is that something that's just in you? No, absolutely not, that's not in me at all. I think this album was cool. I think I really challenged myself, and before we started it, I remember I was like, okay, this album is going to be my most personal one, I've been through a lot, and I know I have stuff to say, and I want to feel as comfortable as possible, to kind of, in a way, guide that a little bit. I think in the past, it's intimidating. You get in the room with these people who have been doing music forever, and you love their music, and you're a fan, and you're kind of like a gay. You tell me what to do, kind of thing. But I think it was cool part of how we met, too. We didn't meet in the studio. We met at a coffee shop, and I wanted to kind of know the person I was going to work with before, so I could have that confidence, because I don't think that's something that comes to me naturally, but I feel like once you become familiar and comfortable with someone, it's so much easier to just be like this, I feel like this and that. I need this, I need that. How did you decide, as someone who did get put through the crazy, do a million sessions with a million different people, and just see what happens? How did you decide, Cole was the main collaborator for the album? Yeah, I think so. I remember my manager and I, once, just about three years ago, I had been through a lot of stuff. I hadn't put out an album in like four or five years, and I was like, I think I want to make something now. And the one thing I said was like, I don't want to do the sessions thing. I want to just find my person and work with them and get in. And so once I said that, Mark, I think it was Cole had recently signed to my management company, and Mark was like looking at his resume, he's like, back, back, back. And like, we both live back. And like, that was all over Cole's stuff. And I was like, I don't know if it makes sense, but let's, let's meet. Yeah. And so, yeah, we hung out at a coffee shop. I always say, I feel like the scariest person to meet someone is in the studio. Like, for the first, like, just, hey, let's write together. That is like the most terrifying thing to me. I love that, I love it. Yeah. But I can like have a great conversation with that fan. Yeah. Okay. So like going to coffee with someone doesn't mean for me that we're going to write a good song together. Yeah. And it didn't to me either, I think. It was just more about making. Take the fear away. That's exactly what it is. Because I just feel it, just there's so much pressure. I feel like meeting in that place. Mm-hmm. So anyways, we hung out and like, we had a really great chat. We bonded a lot of over some of our favorite music. I was very surprised to find out that he's like a super fan of like Ethiopian music, which was so like crazy and random and shocking. But I was like, okay, my parents are going to love him too. So I'm like, we just, it was like an instant kind of thing. And I was like, let's just try it out. And like, you know, at that point felt like this isn't just a stranger that I'm walking into the studio with now. This is, there's something here. Yep. And we did a couple sessions and I was like, yeah, this is, let's do it. Let's do the whole thing. What do you just, just because that people are coming to watching this to try to learn? How do you then, because that's a big undertaking, like, okay, we're going to make this whole album together. Yeah. Absolutely. What was it? That is crazy. What, for both of you, what was it that gave you the, what was the signal? Like, yep, we should, let's, I want to go on this crazy journey with this person. Do you want to go first? I mean, what artist let somebody else go first? Sweetheart. Canada. Canada. I think that I, you know, it was like my personal journey of where I was at the time, too. I had just done a lot of kind of random sessions as well, you know, which is one day, like, nice, I call it nice to meet you session, where you just try to, okay, let's write a song. That's also something that I don't excel at. I don't think I, I think for me, it's more like I really want to dig in and take time and sort of build something, you know? And sometimes it's like the third, fourth, fifth song that's actually the, the best one, you know, or tenth song, but, but I think that, so I had just made this playlist, like somebody had recommended somewhere that make a playlist of everything you loved as a teenager. And this kind of actually loops back to what I was saying about those initial meetings in LA and kind of like having, I was like reconnecting, I think there's a continual process of reconnecting with, you know, the reasons that you got into music in the first place and why you loved this. And so, you know, I had just, I'm such an avid fan of music listening to stuff and discovering new things all the time, that I hadn't really taken the time to go back and really spend time with what I listened to in those formative years, you know, of like 15 through 20, which is just like that, to me, that is like your music taste is completely, you know what I mean? And so then I made the playlist of just everything I loved and it was just like 60 hours of music and I would listen to that on shuffle. And it was incredible because it'd be like the song 13 on a most deaf album or something. And I was just like, this is, I remember this so well. I know every word, I know every moment of the song, even though it's just so, and then hearing it through like producer ears, whatever, 20 years later. And I was just like, this is so, like, this beat is so bad in a way, but I love it so much. And just, and hearing all that stuff, but there was just certain things on there. And I remember you, when we met at the coffee shop, you were kind of like, oh, so my favorite artists are Stevie Wonder, Lauren Hill, and The Beatles or whatever. And like, those were just like at the top of my list of my teenage playlist or whatever. And I was just like, okay, we already connect them. It's not like you're like, I mean, no shade again, but it's not like you're like, oh, whatever new thing, you know, trying to make whatever new, you know, current music, you're kind of like drawing from a deeper well, I feel like, in a way, you know, and that at least I connected with that, you know. And then the Ethiopian music thing was just random and weird. And I was kind of like, oh, my favorite artist, you know, my favorite Ethiopian music is Mom Moody on men. And you're like, oh, my dad's favorite or whatever, you know, but and so, and so there was just weird things like that, just felt like kids mid and felt like there was some synergy already happening. And I mean, for me, I think with the type of producer I am, like, I love to co-write with artists who are already amazing writers. Yeah. Makes my job a little easier. No, but it's also just that I just, I love an artist who has a unique voice that is comes through in their writing, you know, and that they are doing something that would just nobody else would write, you know? And so I knew obviously that Ruth was that and you could do it already all on your own, you know what I mean? And so I just felt, okay, let me come in here and just like help you, help, help like bring out some of that growth that you've been going through in your personal life. Yeah. And then just put that into the music in a way that you hadn't yet. What was it because it, like you've mentioned a couple of times, it was like a long time between albums. Yeah. If you don't mind and you can tell me to drop, you don't have to answer that question. Yeah. What was it in your personal life? Because you've mentioned a few times now what you've gone through. What was it that you were like? like I need, I'm ready to write about this. - Well, I think at the top, I probably, I went through like the biggest breakup of my life. - Thank good for you, thank God. I think breakups are amazing. - They're actually so good. - All my friends, like don't come to me with looking for like to vent about your partner 'cause I'm just gonna tell you to break up. - Yeah. - I'm gonna be my advice. - Yeah. - So I'm proud of you, good for you. - Yeah, I think in the moment it was like, the worst thing ever, but hindsight's 2020 and I'm like, oh, thank God for that. But I think, yeah, break up and then just like growing up, like going from, you know, your early 20s into your late 20s, there's like so much stuff that happens and you find yourself out of a relationship that you've been in for like five years that kind of define you. - You're in your 20s, five years is a long time. - It's a lot and it kind of defines who you are and you are that person and that person is you. So the separation of that, it's almost like, oh my God, I have to like find myself. - Yeah. - I'm at the hands side of this, like who are my friends because I was so secluded in this thing and it just, there was like a lot of life to write about and so I think, you know, I told my manager, I'm like, I'm ready to make music. I don't know who to do with. Met Cole and I think the thing for me was like, I just, I felt very understood by him. - Yeah. - In the sense of like, I felt like he really appreciated what I already had going on. He wasn't coming in there to be like, we should do this, we should change this. Like, he was like, you have something really good. Like, I wanna help you make that even deeper and better and like, I loved that. Like, I was like, oh, finally, like this is someone who like, sees what I have going on and is telling me it's a good thing and is like, let's just like elevate it. - Yeah. Can you guys walk me through what was the hardest song on the album to write and finish and get across the finish line? And like, really walk me through the process if you don't mind because I just think that's such a helpful thing for people to learn about is like, we always tell the stories. If we wrote it in 20 minutes and we just knew it was nothing but piano and a kick drum and now it's the biggest hit ever. That doesn't help anybody. - No, for real. - There's nothing to learn there. (laughing) Like, what was the hardest and how did you, how did you get through it? - I don't know. I don't know if it was the hardest, but the song breathe that we already talked about. I think it was one that we had to be delicate with. And I think that sometimes you do have to be careful. Even though I tend to be a just throw a pain at the wall, break stuff, burn it down, start again. But I kind of, I had just come through doing a couple projects where I had done that on every song and it was so exhausting. Actually, that, you know, we'd write the song and then I would say, okay, let's take out all the music. And now it's to the speed. Let's do it. I'll do a ballad version. I'll do a hip-hop version. I'll do this. And by the end of it, I was like, that was not really helpful. Actually, it was so tiring. And I would made 20 versions of every song and it was just complete indecision. And just-- - Yeah, that sounds awful. - It was horrible. It was horrible. - It was horrible. - It sounds like a really bad idea. - It was a terrible idea. No, sometimes I feel like sometimes you have to do that. But I think I came out of that being like, you know what, this project with Ruth, this is kind of towards the beginning. I'm just like, I don't think this is going to need that. I just want to do this where we trust our instincts. You know, where we really trust the first thought. And even though it wasn't the kind of thing where as we sort of started to describe it, we didn't write the song in 20 minutes or anything. It evolved over a long period of time 'cause we would go months without working together and then get back to it. And there was a lot going on for both of us during them, but definitely for you, where you know, you would sort of be going through periods of, I think where it seemed like you felt like you weren't as connected to writing and being creative and then you would kind of come back and be ready to go again. And, you know, you were going through the breakup, you know, and all the repercussions of it and everything and then trying to figure out how much of that to include. But I think at times it's just like you just feel bad and you just are like, I don't want to write about it. - Yeah, yeah. - But to get to the process of writing. So I think that with that one, it was kind of like, I think the crucial moment was when you said, you know, I don't think this is actually the song, even though we had already, we wrote it. And then, and when you went back and rewrote it, you rewrote the verses, right? And it took a while. Like, you know, it took like, I think, we probably started the song and didn't finish it until, what, two years later? - Yeah, literally two hours. - And you're in a half or two years later. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was one of those. - Because, but also it's a song about something then a little different than what you'd written about. Do you want to talk about that? - Yeah, yeah, no. So that song, I would say, is like definitely my most personal vulnerable song probably that I've ever written about just because I think, yeah, I think a lot of my music, most of my music is kind of about someone else and like how they made me feel and the heartbreak or the love of it. And this was like just about me and like my journey and like my struggles with my mental health and stuff. And I was, I was really going through it while we were making this album. - I'm sorry. - No, it, like, it was tough in the moment, but now I look back and I'm like grateful because it's like, you can kind of hear the like pain, but also like the healing throughout this album, which is why it's so near and dear to my heart because like, I know what I was going through when I was singing those exact lyrics. And I think with brief specifically, like we started it as kind of like this love song or whatever. And then there was, there was a lyric in it, I think on the mumble, mumble track that was like, the mountains are so big, I feel so small, the oceans are so big, they could swallow me whole. And like, I remember, I was kind of like, one thing I'll say about Cole is, I'm so thankful for his patience because there were like, literally- - If they need to hear us to finish this, I'll see you in two years, bro. - Literally, there were times where I was like, okay, I'll see you tomorrow and then he wouldn't see me for like three months, like, straight up, because I was just so in the trenches. But I remember my best friend, she was like, you know, I was back home in Canada and she's like, we gotta like do something like you gotta get out of this funk and she took me to BAM, which is like, my favorite place in the world is to go there growing up a lot, mountain town. And we stayed there for three days and that's actually where I like wrote the song. And I was kind of sitting outside on the balcony one day by myself going through a bunch of our drafts and I went through that one and I was like, like, I know what I need to say. And like, it really, that's what I would say to people is like, I don't think you need to rush music. Like, of course, we live in an industry where it's like, you gotta do stuff, but like, you should give yourself the time to feel the music you're writing. And like, do you think that, cause obviously like you said, we're in this music business and there is pressure, especially on artists to release, release, release, release. Do you think that you know that you need to give yourself time or that you just, there's no option for you. Like for the way you're creative process, you are gonna give yourself time or is it something that you like actively put your foot down and make happen? - No, I think it's, I don't have a choice. Yeah, I think, for me, it's like, I'm not that type of person who's gonna write every day, like, at all, like, it's like, I write when there's something to say. - Yeah. - It really is like a form of therapy, which is why I think I need to like know the person I'm working with because I could never just, unless I'm like writing about just like something that's not to do with me, I could go in there and have fun. - The Disney album, you're gonna see. - Oh my god, I'm gonna like, when you're 79. - Oh, and it'll be done in a week. Like, it'll be quick. No, but when it's my (beep) it's like, I just, you know, it's like, writing in a journal almost. - Yeah. - Yeah, so it's not really an option for me. It's like, if I gotta do it, I gotta do it. - I get asked all the time of like, you know, 'cause if it's a really crazy week in my life, I can, sometimes there's eight songs written. I feel like, how? It's like, well, but it's not about my life anymore. I haven't written a song about my own life. - Wow. - In 12 years or something, 13 years. I couldn't tell you how long. So, for me, it's, I'm just there to help other people tell their stories, so I don't need to like, go and live. But when you're writing about your own life, like, you have to do that. - Yeah. - There's, um, the song "Storm" is a lyric from like, a decade ago, right? - Yeah. - How, what made you go, okay, now I have to, this lyric now has to come to light a decade later. How does, how does, how do you, what sparked that? - Yeah, so "Storm" was like one of those vine things that happened 10 years ago that people had like, always asked me to like, finish writing, finish writing, and didn't have the life experience for it, I think. And so, you know, 10 years later, I kind of found myself in quite literally a massive storm of life, and I went back to finish it. And I thought, I don't know. I felt like I wanted to like, close the gap of like, that first album to like, now, and say "Fabien" was that album. And I thought "Storm" was like the perfect bridge of like, okay, I'm giving you guys this last piece of this era of like, "Lost Boy" and "Dandelions" and we've been to go into this new era, all right? Like, you guys are gonna come with me. - Yeah. - And so, yeah, I just, I kind of wrote it when I needed to write it same thing and put it out. And yeah, I was just happy to give people something that they'd always been asking for. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Were your OG fans very-- - They were geeked. - They were geeked. - They were so happy, yeah. Like, they were like fine. I mean, I was still getting DMs like 10 years later about where the storm's out. - Yeah. - Cool, how do you produce something that's a decade? - Yeah. - What is your creative producer thought process of like, what do I do with this thing that people already love and blah, blah, blah, blah? - Yeah, it was weird with that because, I mean, yeah, I kind of was like, even just, you know, watching, basically watching the vines that you can have fun on YouTube. and just that was the genesis of this whole thing, you know? And kind of like, I watch those videos so many times, actually, because it is amazing. And something about the six seconds is wild, right? Where it's just, you get just enough of a glimpse into something, but you don't see the, what came before, you don't see it right in the middle, you know? And it's just, it just really makes you want more. And I think I, but the thing is, is I really trusted, because I did, actually, that was one of the first ones we worked on, right? And so it was, oh wow. Yeah, and it was kind of almost before we started the album promptly, right? And it took a little while to finish, because I was still coming out of my tri-20 versions of every song. But it was hard, because it was something that already existed, that people already loved, that was out in the world, and how do you kind of do justice to that? How do you figure out what came before and what came after on that Vine video, right? And so I think kind of, in a lot of ways, I was really just inspired by that video, and tried to just get some of the same mood, and try to figure out what it was you were doing, because it was just this really spontaneous kind of loose moment. And how do you, just, you know, use that to make a full song? And so it took a second to figure out. But it also, I think, one of the keys was to get you to play the piano, you know, when we got the piano in there. That was another thing that was a crucial moment, I think, in our process, once we, because actually a lot of the songs were written on guitar, right? It was so different for me. Which was just something that happened in the process that kind of we were inspired by. But then there was a moment where we both sort of thought, you know what, though, I do think that the songs, this album still needs to be a piano album. Yeah, so then there was a process of kind of transposing everything to piano. And then once you started playing the songs on piano, it just, oh, it really came into focus. Because I think then it just sounded like Ruthie being like, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so that, that was one of the key things with Storm 2. How did, was, was piano like, have you been playing your whole life? How did, how did, is that how you started? Yeah, me too. Yeah, love, yeah. Every song I wrote until I was like 33 was always written at piano. Just like me, piano. Yeah, my parents put me in lessons when I was like eight. I absolutely hated it because like, it was so boring. And I would just like, want to play my own stuff. And the teacher would be like, no, like, play this. Yeah. But yeah, no, I, I've always piano. I feel like it's like my perfect dance partner. I always say that like me and my voice and the piano. It's just, you know, home for me. Cool. Well, what did you start on guitar? When you were younger? I started on piano also. Really cool. Yeah, I mean, like as a little kid. And then I, you know, was in same piano lessons or whatever and didn't love it. And then I kind of switched music teachers. And it was actually an amazing thing because somehow I, I grew up in Berkeley. And there's a lot of weird kind of music scene in Berkeley and a lot of like jazz people and stuff. And, and I found a teacher that was a jazz musician named Peter Afflebaum. And he was multi instrumentalist. But he sort of like had drums in his house and had all these other instruments. So I just came to his house and started trying all these other instruments and playing. Cool. And so I got kind of switched to drums for a while. But then yeah, I just started sort of playing a lot of different instruments. Yeah, I only ever wanted to play piano because I think it's the most glamorous of it all. Very nice. Like guitars. It's like so rowy. It's like good. Can't have your nails done. Yeah, just, it's just there's something so glamorous. Like the shoe, your shoes can be like a focal point when you play piano. Yeah, there's just like a whole thing. So sure. There's a whole thing happening. Okay, we asked this question of everybody. Which is what is the song that ruined your life in the sense of you heard a song when you were young. And you were like, Oh, I'm a musician now. I have to do that. Like whatever, whatever this song just made me feel I have to now. This is my life now. I'm going to go chasing car snow patrol. Cool. Yeah, I distinctly remember being like 13 years old and feeling like feeling real feelings. Like that were way beyond my arm. Like, why am I this heartbroken right now? But I really don't have a boyfriend. No, like I was crushed like chill out. I literally was in the parking lot waiting for my mom. She's in the grocery store and like it was raining. And I heard that song for the first time. And I was like, whatever this feeling is, I was like, this is wild. And I just, I think that was, I don't think I knew in the moment that I was like, Oh, I want to write music. But I remember that was like the first song that I've really like really moved to me. Yeah, yeah. I love that answer. That's a good answer. It's so hard for me to answer this question. I feel like I don't know if it was the first, but there was this moment when I was, when I was like probably 13, 14, still playing some piano. And I met a friend on through like instant messenger. I don't know how. Like a well instant messenger. And it was like, it was somebody I knew from a, from a class was, it was like, I am friends with this person. And he was this guy and he lived in New Jersey. And he was an amazing pianist. And I was obsessed with Stevie Wonder at the time. And I remember him. And I was, we were, I am about, I was like, I love Stevie Wonder. And he was like, Oh, I know all those songs. I could teach you how to play those songs. And so he like taught me the chords of, and I just remember learning joy inside my tears by Stevie Wonder. And I remember that being just this really is like this deep feeling in that song that like as a kid, I couldn't even really connect to. But I knew, you know, I could, I could only connect to it so much, but I felt that there was so much more to it. Yeah. And I go into it and go deeper. And yeah, it just really hit me so hard, even as a, as a 13-year-old. That's, I mean, that's a pretty high-level song to learn it. I know. I can play a little, but I can, I can bang it out a little enough to like feel it. Are you like a, a chords, like, as chords, like your favorite part of the process for you? Kind of. I just, being like, obsessed with Stevie Wonder, it makes me think chords were yours. I know. I mean, yes, because I think that for whatever, you know, my, my dad listened to a lot of jazz growing up. And I always think that like, that my ear completely for like doing pop music, because I just was used to such like complex harmony. I was used to these chords that were just so much more complex. And I think that those sound normal to me, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so, yeah, I do think chords are the thing that really often, I mean, what brings me into a song usually is the chords and the melody. Yeah. And then the lyric, I kind of get a little bit after, but I think that the chords and the melody, that is just what draws me in complete. It's like, it's like harmony and melody. And that's what makes me just engaged emotionally. And that's what I'm always looking for. I've never heard someone say, like, I love that so much of like growing up with so much jazz. And that sounds normal to you. Yeah. Which like in some ways, they maybe see you over for pop. Because you're like, no, no, this flat nine is totally normal. Yeah. Like, why do you, well, why are you playing a natural nine that's so boring? No. People will be, you know, people will be like, I don't know. You know, that's, you know, that's a weird note. And I just don't even, I just don't even, it doesn't register as weird to me. But I just, you know, like I said, come to embrace that stuff. Yeah, that's what makes us all special. I will say my favorite moment on the album is in a song called Pick Me. And that was one of the ones that I'd kind of written at home and brought to cool. But in the hook, he like adds this chord. Oh, really? And that is my like literal favorite moment. Geek out for us, Cole. What is the chord? I don't even know. I mean, I think I know what you're talking about. When I played the piano kind of more towards it. Yes. Yes. I don't know it. It gets me. Because I never got far enough in piano where I could tell you what chord that is. It's really only just, I just played by ear. It's so good. I don't know where that came from. But I'm going to re-listen to the song now. Listen to Pick Me and you will hear it. It's a subtle moment. It's so subtle. Okay. It's so subtle, but like it's everything. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. Before we play, we play a game called gag or drag at the end of every episode. But I have to, we have to ask you about. Your song. Beginning. Sampled or interpolated or sampled, right? Yeah. For Rod Wave. Oh, yeah. How does it feel when your song becomes. Another song. Like what? Just walk me through. I've never, that's never happened to me as a writer. I have definitely. Interplated. Other people's songs. Yeah. In my first hit, followed by centuries. Right. It has a huge Susanne Vega, you know, interpolation in it. Yeah. But I've never had it happen to me. Yeah. How did that feel? It's really cool. I got to watch him perform it. It made me, it was like two years ago at Barclay Center. And he had asked me actually the first time. I performed it with him since. But the first time he'd asked me to go up on stage. And I kind of was like, you know, I've always dreamed about this moment of like being in the audience and kind of like hearing it. Like, can I please have that? And then you're like, okay, cool. Next time I'll get on stage with you. And I mean, it's so wild because the song that he used was like one of the very first songs I'd written. I was still working at Marshall's. I wrote it about this young love Marshall's. The Marshall's of it is just so good. Marshall's is actually such a nucleus part. It's like massive in my life. But I wrote it about this lady Mary. She was working at the time with me. She was like an older lady. And she was telling me about the fight she would have with her husband. And she said aligned to me. She was like, you know, Ruth, like even he makes me so upset. But even when he, you know, leaves and slams the door, like I still set the table for him and wait. And that was like the lyric that O'Rourke ends up using. But I remember like right home on D-Job. To the guiding. I'm just like Mary. Like I need to go back and be like, thank you, Mary. But I just remember in that moment, like hearing it, like I went right back to that moment when she told me that. And I'm like, here I am now. Here I am now. There's like thousands of people singing these words. And I'm just a part of it. Like I loved singing it with them and no one knew that I was like, that they were singing my words. And it was, and I was like top five moments in my life. It was so cool to just like be a part of that and feel so anonymous in it. - Yeah, I've been looking up to, 'cause as a writer, I have that feeling anytime my songs are performed, 'cause I stopped performing them, right? I don't perform them. - I do. - And it is the craziest feeling of like, yeah, these (beep) just have no clue. - No, for real. - No, my cousin's doing so many videos and me being like, (laughs) everybody? Everybody? But it's such an insane feeling. And I love him, he's the best. I'm actually singing with him in like a week. He's doing a little special hometown or album show and he's just the best. And he's, yeah, love his music as well. - Yeah, that's such an interesting, I never thought about that way. You get the experience that behind the scene songwriters get. - Yeah. - You got that experience. - Oh my gosh, yes, that's exactly right. And it was one of my favorite experiences ever, ever, ever. - Yeah, it is, it is. People ask me all the time, like, do you miss performing? 'Cause my band was not known for our songs, but you were known for our show. Like, do you miss it? And I'm like, I gotta tell you the feeling of like, hearing your songs and you don't have to, you're not to do it. There's something really magical about it. - It's so, I think I might have, I mean, I loved performing it with him to don't get me wrong. That was one of those. I'm like, I think I might have liked just being an audience a little more, but it just felt so wild. It was such a trip. - Yeah, that's really cool. - Yeah. - Okay. We play "Gagger Drag" to end every episode. "Gagger" means you love it, "Drag" means you hate it. - Okay, I'm just kidding. - Okay. - Do we say it at the same time? - No, you can do it separately. - Okay, let, or we, we've never tried it. Do you wanna try it at the same time? - No. - Okay. (laughing) - Well, I don't get the way you're talking. - And this feels like an artist question, but it applies to producer writers too, okay? - Yes. - "Gagger" drag, someone tells you I liked your old stuff better. - "Drag." - Are you joking? - Big drag. - That's awful. That's like the nightmare life. I'll be deleting those comments on TikTok. - Oh, the comments, I don't know how we let people know that we see the comments. But I think if we let them know, then they're just even more happy about it. - Exactly. - Like, no, I wanted you to see this. - Yes. - I just silently delete. - Like, I'm just like, oh no. - Last white. - No. - We want a deadline. - No. - Bye. - "Gagger" drag, a song you forgot about becomes your biggest song six years later. - "Gagger." - That's my whole life. - "Gagger." - "Gagger." - "Gagger." - "Gagger." - "You ever had one of your old songs go viral yet?" I haven't had it yet, and I'm really, really hoping. - He's like, please. - Not in a big way, not in a big way, but definitely, 'cause a lot of the music I've done is definitely a little more on the kind of, like, underground indie side that things take, sometimes take a while to come around, which I think is like the greatest thing of music in this time or streaming or whatever, is that the discovery process is not one week, and if you miss that week, then your song's a failure. It can be 10 years later, it's amazing. - What's the song of yours that you co-wrote and produced, or just produced either one, that you really think deserves the spotlight of virality? - Oh, it's a good question. - The spotlight of virality. I mean, in a not virality, but in a really small way, it kind of like one of Ariel Pink's, one of my favorite songs I did with him is a song Lipstick, that I think is kind of like on underground viral in some ways, but I feel like that's more. - You deserve more. - I feel like that song could really go far. - That's actually one of my favorite songs. - That's amazing. - Yeah, that's it. - I don't even know that one. - Gag or drag, someone wants to change the lyric that you are the most emotionally attached to. - You can say meh. - Meh. - Yeah. - Meh, because sometimes that'll happen, and I'll be like, what? But then like-- - Then they're right. - They're right, yeah, honestly. So that's a man. - I mean, yeah, if it's better, if it's better, yeah, but like, most of the time it's not, you know what I mean? - If one of the co-writers, if one of us is obsessed with it, there's a piece. - Literally. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Someone hears a piano ballad. Gag or drag, someone hears a piano ballad and immediately says, this needs a beat. - Ooh, drag. - That's it. - That's a gag on that one. - Really? - 'Cause I'm ready to do the 20 versions. No, no, no, no. - That's right, I'm for that one. - Fair, fair. You already answered this, but let's get the rapid fire. - Gag or drag, making an entire album with one collaborator instead of doing 31st date writing sessions. - Gag or lag? - Okay, yeah. - Gag or lag, we haven't gotten that one yet. - No, no. - Gag or drag. - Gag or drag, a friend asks what's wrong and you say nothing and then get pissed when they believe you. - Gag. - Gag, yeah. - You're like, that's the drama. - Yeah, it's like, pride? - I thought you were my friend. - Right. - Please, pride. - Yeah. - But I think that a lot of like therapists would probably tell us if you ask a friend what's wrong and they say nothing, let it happen. But it is like, no, come on, we know what we're doing. - Yeah. - We know this game. Could gag or drag canceling plans because being alone suddenly sounds better than seeing anybody you love? - Gag. - Oh my god. - Drag for me 'cause I do that every day all the time. - Yeah. - We're gonna love that you really raised the stakes and said, then seeing somebody you love. - I know and I almost took that part out. - Ooh. - I was like, "You shouldn't give it to me." - You can't sell all the time. - Yeah, just like, yeah. I just like, my social life is very, very, very small and I'm working on expanding that. - I, I can't, I really have a hard time counting on people. I'm like, I'm a lifelong people, please, or, and like something has to be really, now I will cancel people for work and a heartbeat. And my friends know that and so they don't care. But like, if I'm canceling someone 'cause I just don't want to, you-- - I wish I was calling police more like, - Call the police 'cause I'm not doing well. - Yeah. - Okay, gag or drag, someone tells you everything happens for a reason while you're actively going through hell. - Drag. - Drag. - Oh my god. - That just, that literally just pissed me off. - I think, I got mad. - Drag. - Yeah. - There's no reason. - I say that to people all the time. - That's how I learned something here today. I've learned to not, but you know what's funny, when I, when I went to my best friend Austin and he tries to like solve the problem for me, I'm like, - That's the one. - That's the one, that's the one, that's the one. - That's exactly it. - Oh, that's even worse. - And he's a very smart person. And like, probably is giving me correct advice. And I'm like, no, no. I'm just-- - Let me back. - I just want to be upset. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay, to finish it up, what is one advice that you have learned about collaboration? When, what, I mean, you've learned about collaboration that you wish you could go back and tell yourself when you started. A cheat code about collaborating that you have learned now, that you wish you could tell yourself 10 years ago. - I think for me, I would say to just stay and be open. I think for so long, I was like, I'm going to write all my songs by myself and da-da-da. And like, cool, it works. But what I've learned through collaboration is like, there's so much to learn. And like, every time you get in a room, with someone, whether you come out with like an amazing song or not, you, there's something to learn. And I think, you know, with Cole, like, I mean, the whole process to me was just like, learning and growing. And I really did feel like so excited and honestly, honored to be able to work with him because he is so talented. And he's so good at what he does and so smart. And like, even when he was just doing his own thing and writing his own thing, I was just like kind of like a sponge in learning. So I think, you know, as a young kid, sometimes I thought I had it all figured out and like, I knew what I was doing. But I think I would just, you know, just be open. You never know what's going to happen. - Cool. - Keep yourself open. - I love that. It's like really simple advice, but really important. Like, I came into co-writing in my like, at like 33. - Yeah. - And I really fucking wish someone, no one suggested it earlier. - Right. - And I was like, I really think someone should. - I told you to cover it. - Right, right. - 'Cause my whole life changed once I started collaborating. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I love that. - This mind is kind of similar. I mean, I think that I've had a few experiences that I really try to learn from where, you know, the process, because I've made a lot of albums and I love making albums. I love, like I said, I'd love to just like dig deep and really create a world from the ground up with an artist. And I think that that process, like making an album is really difficult. It's, you know, it's, you can make a couple songs but then to make a full album. - It's a lot of work. - It's a lot of work and it takes a long time. And there's, and also it stretches. I think when it's good, oftentimes it'll stretch the people to the point of where it can be, it can be torture at times. It can really be like unbearable. - Yeah. - Because it's, you're pushing each other sometimes so hard outside of a comfort zone. People are going through in their lives and you're trying to respect the people that you're working with but you can't force somebody to do something and you kind of are going on their timeline as much as you are on yours. And there is times when, sort of, I almost burn bridges and stuff like that and then what happened afterwards was that something came out and actually was really successful and what I realized was even though I felt at the end. time like I was so embittered and I felt like this was such a waste of my time and why did I spend so long doing this and stuff. And then you never know how important the thing that you're doing is when you're doing it. And I just think try to see it through, try to respect the process because you never know it's going to happen with it in the end, you know. I think that that's, again, another like really awesome, simple piece of advice is just fucking finish it, just finish it. Like I think that it's like such that that is such an important skill that a lot of people don't have. And so when things get tough, it's so easy to just be like, you know what, find somebody else. Yeah. We already finished four songs. Yeah. I think like, yeah, stay open-minded, be open to collaboration and then just finish it. Finish what you said you were going to do. Yeah, amazing. Ruth, Cole, thank you both so much. This was so fun. So fun. I love it. You're both like the calmest people I've talked to in a long time. Lovely. Wow. Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please, follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations. And also pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday.