Hey, we're still a listeners. You can find every episode on Apple podcast and Spotify. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon music. The course is calling and your Chevy Equinox can take on whatever the day throws at you. Stylish and ready for anything. Equinox handles your commute weekend trips and even those last minute T times easily load up your clubs and gear with plenty of cargo space plus hidden storage under the rear floor to keep things neat and with a big standout touch screen. The Equinox puts all your tech right where you need it. Bold and confident Equinox looks just as good on the road as it does down the back roads. From the first drive to the final putt Equinox is built to do more so you can focus on the game. The Ryan Resilio show is presented by Draftking Sports. Today on the Resilio Book Club, the gunfighters, Brian Burrell. This is a classic. Get it for your dad or anyone who enjoys the legend of all the great gunfighters. We got Billy the kid, we got Jesse James, but Wyatt Earp and the biggest badass that you may not know his name. This summer, whatever you're watching, baseball, golf, soccer, racing, draft Kings has you covered for every single moment of it. The Draftking Sports app is now available in all 50 states, bringing the game straight to your fingertips wherever you are from Florida to Texas to California. You're in on the excitement of the speed of sports. Follow every buzzer meter, every walkoff, every photo finish, sweat the moments that matter in real time with a seamless experience built for the biggest season of the year. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. New Draftking's customer sign up with the code Ryan spent five bucks to get 150 in rewards within 14 days includes all markets that's code Ryan, R-Y-E-N. In partnership with Draftkings, the crown is yours. Bet with DK Sports Book, gambling problem called 1-800-Gamberler, 1-800-My Reset, Connecticut called 888-789-7777, visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boothill, Casino and Kansas, Bettax Pass through may apply in Illinois, 21 and over, void in Canada. Event contract trading with Draftking's predictions involves risk of loss, availability varies. Predictions offer void in New York, bet to get bonus bets that expire in seven days, trade to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. $50 in rewards issued every seven days via click-to-claim for 14 days, one non-withdrawable reward redeemable, terms at DKNG.co/offer, limited time offer. This book has been one of my favorite reads since I'm on this big, I don't know, Texas cattle thing and settling the West and there's not a specific list other than I'm just going to share with you right now. It's the gunfighters from Brian Burrow and I think this book is probably one of the best gift ideas because we're just going to run through a bunch of the Texas legends and areas outside of Texas, where maybe Texas is the origin of all this stuff. So Brian, it's good to see you. Thank you so much for everything you did on this book. I really enjoyed it. Brian, it's a real pleasure to be with you. All right, so let's start with Texas as the main character, like you do in your book, because I've read about the Southern philosophy, the Southern rules, but it was like, hey, the people from the South that sort of went to Texas, it started in the South, but then Texas was so unruly that there was a combination of all these different beliefs and how society should run. So how does Texas become the origin of all of these gunfighting legends? Well, you're right. The first thing you have to think, realize, and remember is that Texas is first and foremost, especially then, a Southern state. So it inherited a lot of Southern behaviors around male honor, principally, for our purposes, the idea firmly held in the 19th century, that if you were insulted, if somebody disses you, you would not only have the ride, you had the obligation to push back with violence, even deadly violence. Then what happened in Texas? Texas was a martial society one very comfortable with guns because it had to be not only because of snakes and critters and such, but because they had, you know, they were the only Southern state with two violent frontiers throughout much of the 19th century, the Mexican frontier, the Native American, the Comanche frontier, they cut the state in half, it well into the 1870s. So it was an extraordinary violent place and then came the decade after the Civil War, in which Texas pretty much revolted against federal occupation. It was a very nasty, often racist type of violence that permeated kind of the male genes in Texas, if you will. And then the final ingredient in what some people call the code of the West that came out of Texas was the rise of the Texas cattle business, which was an extraordinarily off-the-charts violent business. For the simple reason, we're talking open range cattle business, no barbed wire, no fencing. So their primary concern was always theft from cattle wrestlers. And there was only one way that Texas cattlemen dealt with cattle wrestlers and that was with a bullet or a nubes, not a lot of wrestlers ever found their way to Texas courtroom, all of which would be kind of interesting local history for Texans, except that Texas violence did not stay in Texas. With the rise of the cattle drives and the cattle trails, there was this huge Texas diaspora, 90% of the cattle that came to populate the ranches of the Great Plains, the Rocky Mountains, New Mexico, Arizona. They were Texas longhorns because that's the only cattle that were out there. And with those longhorns came an awful lot of young violent Texans. If what I argue in the book gently is that they were responsible, certainly not for all the gunfighter style violence in the West, but a disproportionate amount of it. Yeah, that's a pretty staggering number when you lay it out. It's like if you were to look at all of the gunfighting legends, and I know that you even admit, like whatever's on record versus maybe what had happened, but what is it? A third of the people involved historically over this time frame, like they originated in Texas, is that? I put the number 60%. If you look at 60%. We call the marquee gunfights, because look, there's no way to really adequately measure all the gunfights in the West. So I'm really writing and addressing those that are remembered, those that made the newspapers, those that I'm able to write out. When you look at those, it's close to 60% of those involved Texans, Texan on at least one side. Let's stay on the Texas thing before we get to the individuals, though, because you had to have wanted to maybe be one of these guys to go there in the first place. Now, I understand that there is always man's quest for land. And if you feel like, hey, there's no room for me here in the South, certainly the Northeast, which feels like it's 150 years ahead, even if the calendar says the same time period, just based on the way society conducts itself. But there's a romantic part of this, but there's also clearly the guys that go out there to bring their families, then the furthest edges of the frontier seem to be accepting the danger that comes along with this. You had to. People went out west for a multitude of reasons. By and large, these were not people who were hugely successful back east or wherever they were coming from. They were looking for a new start. There was money to be made in land, in livestock, in the West. It seemed easy. It seemed up for grabs and risk and danger. This is in a society where the, you know, average male lifespan might be 50 and anything, you know, a snake could kill you. A million different things could kill you. There was an awful Seth McFarlane movie from years ago, a million ways to die in the West, which is almost true. So yeah, but in the pantheon of things that could kill you in the old West, other white people probably did not rank in the top things, top 10 things that people were scared of going out there. There's also a post-Civil War crisis, where you have all of these former soldiers that are a little unhinged coming out of battle. And as you clearly mentioned, which makes sense, it's not like people were diagnosing PTSD back then. But it was so bad. There actually had been a law that was passed that you weren't supposed to serve veterans of the Civil War alcohol. There were municipal audiences in various parts of the north where that type of thing happened. Look, if any talk that you and I engage with or anybody does about PTSD after the Civil War, there's never going to be any data to back it up. But it just makes sense that it was a major problem, especially because this was an era in which mental health challenges were just not addressed. So you had a lot of a crime wave that really swept much of the east in the late 1860s. Much of it was blamed on veterans. And it's during those years where we see the rise of this new American archetype out west, the gunfire. Many of them were, in fact, veterans. Let's start with Wild Bill Hickock. What's he abroad? He started as a fraud. That is what I argue. When you, Wild Bill Hickock is the first gunfighter. It's not the first time Americans ever had a gunfight. But the gunfight that he engaged with in killing a man in Springfield, Missouri, in July 1965 was the first time that the phenomena was written about in a major Eastern--
magazine and suddenly everybody was fascinated and it wasn't just that hickok killed a man he was in a writer discovered in this was a guy from Harper's weekly much like the new yorker and he writes straight face that he has no doubt that this wild bill hickok person has killed over a hundred white men he's absolutely certain of it excessive research by others and confirmed by me which suggests the actual number was closer to two wild bill was a human who didn't mind becoming a somebody and so he continued this charade if you will for several years and the odd thing Ryan is that after a few years various communities led by Abilene Kansas a Texas Caltown set up for for Texans you know saw that reputation and hired him and he was not a great marshal he killed people who didn't need killing a number of times most famously including his own deputy but he did get a reputation for you know being a talented gunman so when I think of hickok I think of a guy who started out as a fraud but kind of grew into the image yeah I think it's a really fascinating part of telling the story because you go through a lot of these legends and it's like here's what's real here's what is in and this tremendous amount of research but you do make the point like it's not an attack on wild bill necessarily it's that he's the rarest of cases where he was absolutely a fraud but then it was almost like because he was a fraud he felt like he had I mean I'm not trying to be insensitive here but like get his numbers up so that the legend actually matched up so it was almost like he was chasing his own publicity by going on these sprees of taking guys out that is very much my sense of the man of course he never admitted it but hickok is the first gunfighter he is very human in some ways heroic in some way sad but that's the fun of all this I mean if you like the old west trying to figure out what was real of all this because so much of it will I mean the standard thing of any academic who's gonna get up here and talk about all west gunfires for years they would just say this was all Hollywood stuff it's all made up he wasn't it there's a large part of reality that underpins these gunfighter legends and so for those of us that watch deadwood the scene with wild bill being shot at a card game that's a hundred percent what happened correct yes the guy well I I'm not remembering the dead wood episode but but deadwood got everything right we'll never understand why that guy came around and shot wild bill in the back of the head but all yeah all all research suggests that hickok can actually be nice to it it slid him some money when he was losing it said hey go take a break get a meal and I guess the man's manhood was somehow challenged because he yeah he did a way he did away with hickok pretty easily but the sad part of hickok by then as he was already on the decline he had lost I mean ironically what he had lost physically was a much of his eyesight he used he used he wore blue tinted glasses for those last years because bright light tended to to bother him and so he of course the gunfights for him had ended in 1871 in Abelene the last major one being the one in which he killed this deputy by mistake how does Abelene Kansas enter the timeline if you look at kind of the pantheon of great theaters of gunfighter violence tombstone with wider New Mexico with Billy the Kid it starts in Abelene Kansas 1870 18 1871 which is really the first moment when a crowd of Texas cowboys led by the most notorious Texas gunfighter all John Wesley Hardin arrived in town and and start shooting things up and the reason it became so well-known the reason that it is kind of the genesis of so much of these legends is the Marshall and Abelene was the best known gunfighter in America really the only gunfighter in America that most people have ever heard of while Bill Hickok so the shootings and there were a series of them like six or seven involving Hardin and several involving Hickok it kind of begins the gunfighter narrative I refer to this period overall from 1865 to 1901 is the gunfighter era because that's when every gunfighter you've ever heard of Rosenfeld and Abelene is the first theater of note the first one where marquee gunfights really kind of made the Eastern papers and and sank into the history books that also had a really funny anecdote like Ben Thompson enters the scene and everybody it feels like all of our main characters are in Abelene at this point and they decided was that they wanted to mess with while Bill when they decided to paint a bull with an erect penis on the side of their saloon and everyone in the town there's just a bunch of purenuts back then too like you've got all these gunfighters are like hey we can't have an erect penis bull on the side of a building on Main Street can well Bill go handle this well you're right to observe that what made Abelene amazing is the amount of star power not just John was the hard not just while Bill Hickok but the Texas Gambler gunfighter Ben Thompson and much of the narrative of that summer does begin when Thompson opens a bar for Texas Cowboys who are of course bringing in their cattle to put on trains to go to Chicago and it's called the bull's hand in the and he puts a erect bull's penis on his on his sign outside it will a while Bill comes in and force and put and paints it over and Thompson is beside himself so when John Wesley Harden an 18-year-old young man who is by my count already killed about 24 people 24 people comes in Thompson knows it from Texas it says just Hickok just hates the southerners he hates us you know you should go kill him and as Harden related he's our sole source for this many years later in an autobiography he said Ben if you want him if you want him shot why don't you do it yourself but Harden got his dander up and when Hickok went to seize his pistols when Harden was in a bowling alley who knew they had bowling alleys in the old west but they did Harden integrates a bunch of cowboys were making a little too much noise Hickok went in and confronted him and this was one of the most famous gunfighter front confrontations of the old west and he he called Harden by a nickname that he had acquired little Arkansas for a shootout that had happened by the little Arkansas River and he said little Arkansas you know I need your weapons and Harden was wearing two pistols and he handed him but forward as you do and then he famously spun them in his hand a very difficult intricate maneuver known as the road agents span or the border role so that suddenly his guns were trained on Harden and Harden excuse me he's got his guns were trained on Hickok and that's when you I mean Harden had killed so many people so easily you really expect this to be an historic confrontation and Hickok blesses Harden basically says little Arkansas you're mistaken I I don't wish you will will I not I'm not trying to hurt you I don't know why Ben Thompson is told you could we just have a sasperilla and they did they just sat down and talked out it was kind of the most famous non gunfight of the old west why it urps background which it has been lost to Hollywood there's so much to say there's been a lot of good new scholarship on gunfighters over the last 50 years in fact that's one reason I wanted to write this book the gunfighters is to bring it to a general audience and the most single most amazing factoid of all this is that for the length of his time on the old west frontier from from Wichita where he began to Dodge City to tombstone as a lamin wider was also an escaped federal prisoner in 1872 I want to say me 1871 he was arrested in Oklahoma for stealing a horse and he may really have done it don't really know put in a jail in van Birren Arkansas facing a lengthy jail time he went a bunch of guys broke through a hole in the roof and ran out into the night he ran out to two years later he shows up as a deputy in a Wichita five years later you know he begins entering legend in Dodge City and even though I offer that I will tell you that you know wider is kind of the shining moral symbol of this whole era you know in an in an era where so many of the lawmen the sheriffs the marshals are corrupt drunk or both erpid his brothers erpid those he worked with in Dodge City we're really we're really pretty darn good they were hard working their moral and while they you know herb obviously did go off you know did go off the range a little bit as a vigilante in tombstone he really had an incredible career of of marked by unusual professionalism for that day in time his kill total though is what looks like to looks like to that he killed curly bill brochures in a con in a confrontation in the so-called vignette a ride at the height of the violence in tombstone and he probably killed another guy one of a [BLANK_AUDIO]
that both of which White Herp believed had killed his brother Morgan and wounded his brother Virgil. There was one other guy in Dodd City. There was an 1879 version of a drive-by in Dodd City in which a bunch of Texas cowboys shot up a bar where Herp and Doc Holliday and all of them, that whole crowd. That Masterson were playing cards and when they rode off Herp and a number of guys stepped in the street and shot down, shot at the fleeing guys and one cowboy fell and ultimately died and that might have been the first person White Herp killed. When I saw Tombstone the first time as much as I enjoyed the movie, I was like, "Man, this has, I thought it was over 30 minutes ago because the movie just keeps going and it's over and then once I read all the Tombstone stuff, like to be fair, I think the movie kind of nails it because it just goes on forever between all of these characters and the cowboys. If you haven't seen the Tombstone movie from 1993, it's not only to my money the best White Herp movie, it's got to be one of the three best gunfighter-based movie. It is largely accurate. I could certainly say a point to the initial massacre of Mexican villagers is fanciful and standing in for all sorts of real life violence and then at the end where Johnny Ringo is killed and I believe that's by the, yeah, that's by Val Kilmer's Dock Holiday and he's the greatest Dock Holiday ever. That didn't happen. We're pretty sure Johnny Ringo killed himself. White Herp often claimed to have killed Johnny Ringo but you're right. You think that the climax of this is when White Herp's two brothers are one is killed, one is wounded but that only begins the narrative of this righteous, highly moral lawman who goes vigilante to avenge his brothers and that's exactly what happened. It was a big deal in Western newspapers. It made some of the Eastern newspapers and that movie, you know, you have to give a lot of credit for because it is largely accurate. Yeah, especially when it's the, what you think is like the historic shootout at the okay Carl and you're thinking, okay, well, this, this must be this incredible thing and it's, it is, it's kind of like you can't believe people keep missing but I think the movie does a good job of keeping it to your point like accurate because when you start reading about that shootout and you're like, okay, this isn't, I mean the legend of it is so much bigger than the actual, it's not like, you know, 100 guys or 100 guys here. It's kind of the way you think about it the whole time but here's another thing I thought, like you have Master Sin who honestly is like always kind of one of my favorites because he pivots over to boxing, he becomes friends with Teddy Roosevelt, he becomes a writer, he's living in New York City and that person going into like New York City, New York City, like Gilded Age, high society, he must have been like we have a real like badass that was with Wyatt Earp as the Northeast, I think is incredibly enamored with this vigilante lifestyle and all these stories that are reading about but was it that Doc and Master Sin and the Cowboys and the Earps, is it that they truly are like the legends of their time and they all decide to kind of like link up or does that setting with all of these characters there turn them into these legends because it feels like we've got a super team of gunfighters and I couldn't figure out like would it be that would everybody just say hey everybody's going to Dodge City this year? Let's go or was the city itself building them up? I think that the source of the fame is the fact that both Wyatt Earp and his great friend from God City, Batman Masterson grew to Old Age, they lived into the 1920s at a time where I have to say all of this gunfighter legend was pretty much forgot. He was always reintroduced by a famous magazine article when someone whose first words were who remembers Billy the Kid, which is hard to imagine now, but that led in the mid 1920s to the rediscovery of Earp, who was still alive, Master Sin had been writing and heralding not just Earp, but Doc Holliday, but the others around him. So that narrative of Wyatt Earp from Kansas to Arizona, climaxing in Tombstone kind of became the spine of the whole gunfighter ear, the whole gunfighter legend. And I think it deserves to be. It's that greatest story, but it's also largely a fluke in that they lived long enough to tell it. When we write back after a quick word from our sponsors. Football is back and with Draft King Sportsbook September comes with a boost. All September long opt in and get a 50% profit boost every game day with a Draft King
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and train room. His level of criminality from 1869 until 1881 is unmatched in American history. There had never been anything like Jesse James before and there hasn't been sense. He was the first household name criminal, Billy the Kid, would probably be the second. And he was a guy of incredible talent at being a bad guy. He's not a gun fighter because I think of a gun fighter as a civilian who kind of gets in equal fights from time to time. Jesse James just killed people, typically bank officers, bank tellers who wouldn't do what he said. He wouldn't open the safe. Jesse James puts a gun to his head, kills him. He killed like five people that way. So I don't consider that a gun fighter. Yes, I realize there's no strict rules on this, but it's my book. I can say what? To me, that's just a murder. I was convinced after the Jesse James chapter, and it is interesting how he's held up historically because once you read your chapter, you're like, I can believe he's just shooting people and he's shooting people he doesn't even need to shoot. And at that time, despite what we would grow up thinking about the Old West, again, a lot of his work wasn't even in whatever we would call it a traditional Old West. People weren't really robbing banks, right? Like this was kind of a new thing where his numbers were like his usage rate, I would say, was a lot higher than anybody else that was doing this, which is not the way it's remembered. It's kind of felt like everybody was doing this. No, Jesse James and his brother Frank really blazed this trail. They may have been the first, we don't know, the first bank robbed in America in peacetime was, I will say 1866 in Missouri. He may have been there, we can't be sure, we can't really start pinning him to things until 1869. But the oddball thing about Jesse James, you put your finger on it, Ryan, is that he was a cold blooded murderer. But Americans never viewed him that way. We've always had a tendency to when we see criminals involved with acts of daring due, typically any type of escape, any type of thing where they're fighting against the odds, where every bank robber constantly was, we tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. We tend to let slide the fact that, yes, Jesse James had some incredible escapes. Yes, he ran away from all sorts of gunmen and marshals. But just because he was brave and had daring exploits, doesn't mean he wasn't a cold blooded murderer too. And given that set of facts, with any number of people in this book and others, a different civilization than ours, my painting with a black brush. And we never had. Another thing that's easy to kind of forget here too is, we're not that far removed from the end of the Civil War. And so if James is fighting for the Confederacy, it would, you know, it's part of his legend is like, wow, you know, this is just a southern boy that was still upset about the outcome of the war. And you're like, well, that's excusing a ton of shit. But it certainly was part of his motivation, even if he was pretty, like loose with the idea that this was some vengeance against the North because it wasn't like he was just going after banks in Pennsylvania here. This is, this is a common theme though, is that you, you have a lot of lost soldiers that may think people owe them further service beyond whatever it is that they gained during wartime. Yeah, you see that a lot. You see a lot of angry southerners out on the frontier, that holiday would be one, certainly. If you look at the vast number of the vast outlaw gang that wider fought in tombstone over 100 guys, they were predominantly Texans. And there were, and certainly in the Kansas Caltowns, where a lot of the violence was Texas Cowboys, you know, often drunk, fighting it out with wider, per-bat masters in a while, Bill Hicca. All of them had a sense of, well, I'm not going to let some Yankee sheriff take me in. So the Civil War certainly fed a lot of this, especially I think in the early years, the late 1860s and early 1870s. If you track the trajectory of Jesse James's career, he got very much, he loved when a newspaper editor or three called in the last of Inzing Rebel. He ate this stuff up. He sent out notes, extolling that he was fighting for the South, yada, yada, yada. But in fact, as you say, this is just an extensive rationalization for the man to keep doing the only thing he knew how to do, which was be an extraordinary criminal. But he very much liked wearing the clothes of self-righteousness. But over the, you know, the course of his career into the late 1870s, that act increasingly began to wear thin. America, Missouri, it was there, it was all moving. Yeah, and there's a fascinating entry where he like tells the press like, yeah, the James gang's back and like nobody even cares. I mean, it feels like an athlete that had retired three years ago and then says, I'm, I'm making a comeback. And it's like, well, no one, no one actually cares. And it just feels like even then society had moved on. Like we're kind of sick of the stuff, which I do want to get to kind of the end of this era, but there's still a couple of names. Sam Bass was not somebody that I was familiar with. Sam Bass has kind of this legend status in Texas, who was Sam and why is he not considered the same way some of these other names are. Oh, Sam Bass. Sam Bass pulled off. Sam Bass was a, a Texas cowboy, a young guy illiterate. Not the sharpest pencil in the pack once suspects. He first wrote to something some degree of fame in Texas as a jockey. And he took some of his winnings with a cricket cattleman. And they bought some cattle, took them up and and and sold them either in Kansas or up in Deadwood, but they ended up in Deadwood where they sank their winnings into, they lost their winnings. Either in a mining claim or gambling, we don't know. They turned a penny, any crime robbing stage coaches in the Deadwood area. They were awful at it. Like one guy gave them, one driver gave them peaches and said, "That's sorry, that's all I got." These were not, this was kind of a game you couldn't shoot straight. And so you can imagine the jaws that drop across the Great Plains when Sam Bass and his knucklehead buddies, rob a train in remote western Nebraska and they find a shipment from the US meant in San Francisco. And it is the largest train robbery in America. History larger than anything the James game had ever did. And of course, they're like, "Oh, crap." So anyway, long story short, almost all the almost all those partners are run down and and kill or captured. Sam Bass, Sam Bass makes it back to Texas where, you know, we put a number on like financially what it what it meant, what what this wasn't like the modern day, it would have been like almost two million. I think it was three million. It was like three million. It was one of three million dollars. And by the time Sam and people are still looking for Sam Bass, it's working because nobody's ever been to a find out how to happen. I mean, they're old Texas guys, you know, on walkers and oxygen machines with, you know, you know, metal detectors still trying to find Sam Bass's fortune. So everybody in Texas when Sam Bass comes back is on the lookout for him and that the rangers and everybody descends on his hometown of Denton, which is north of Dallas. There's all sorts of chases and escapes and daring do and eventually the area gets too hot for Sam Bass. So he embarks on a second crime wave robbing trains in Texas and then moving south to Rob Banks. And a funny thing happened along the way and maybe it was just the tenor of the times in Texas. But there's such a thing in America in academic circles called the social outlaw, like Robin Hood, an outlaw that the public lionizes, that the public falls in love in Sam Bass's case. There were a lot of editorialists in Texas and say, okay, he's robbing these things. He's not hurting us. Why are these bank presidents and railroad presidents and everything going after this poor Joaquin Denton? And he got enormous amounts of public support. This did not stop him from getting shot to pieces in Round Rock, Texas. And I believe it was 1878. This is the town, 30 miles up the road from where I live. But afterwards he became a real Texas folk hero. There were songs about it that I think you can if you went to certain nursing homes around Texas, you could probably find people could sing you a Sam Bass song. And I will tell you without going into into detail. You know how we know Sam Bass is a great story because someone Netflix has bought the rights to my book and that's the movie they're going to make out of it. It's the Sam Bass song. That's incredible. I thought the book would be like many series or limited series are almost impossible to get anybody unless like you for the star or somebody signs off on it. But I was like, this would be an awesome TV show to just go, Hey, here's the series. But every two episodes you're visiting and learning about a new character and like that. We're going to do that in a podcast that we're recording now as you would expect. Okay. All right. I can't wait to listen to it. Before I have some rapid fire stuff, we have to end with Billy the kid because it just feels different, Brian. I don't know why it feels different. I don't know that I'm like reengineering him being like the first guy I'd ever think of as a little kid.
you mentioned at one point, I think there's 50 movies made with his character in the 1940s. Yep. And yeah, but in the beginning, I mean, is it really the Lincoln Jale Escape that starts his legend? Because he's, he's story just felt a little different and I don't know. I, it just, again, it just felt like a completely different character than some of the other guys. And maybe that's why he's held up. Bill of the kid is fascinating because there I could write 50 books on Bill of the kid. I can give you 50 different Bill of the kids. You can paint him as a hero, you can paint him as a devil. You can paint him as a loyal friend, a hero to the Latinos in New Mexico, many of whom he befriended and who hid him. I love the story because of the moral ambivalence. You know, he was an orphan. He gravitated into an armed conflict, the Lincoln County War. When he was a teenager, clearly he was seeking meaning and guidance and he got it there. And, you know, somewhat like Jesse James, he continued doing what he was good at. After the Lincoln County War, you know, he becomes a catalyst for an essence. He gets into a few gun fights, not a lot, I believe, the number, the, the precise number. We can prove he killed something like three, but there's just so many ways to see his story. You know, the Lincoln County, the Lincoln County is, the Lincoln jail escape is iconic. The most incredible thing is you can still go to that side in Lincoln in Mexico. It's incredible. You can stand where he shot the, you know, the deputy below. You can see it all. There's markers. It's wonderful. It's as good a Western history as you find. And then ultimately to be tracked down and killed by a man, he knew who probably despite young guns too, was probably not his best friend Pat Garrett. They clearly knew each other. And the circumstances of that night when Billy the kid walked into a darkened bedroom. And Pat Garrett was sitting on the bed. And the man, the elderly Mexican in the bed said to whisper to Pat, "LS, it's him." And Pat Garrett just shot the dark. Bang, bang. The only thing you hear is the fall of a body. Billy the kid, I've read all the books, and you can't have too many books about Billy the kid. He's fascinating. Why did this era end? The easy answer is because the Western Frontier closed. Most people put the closing the Frontier in the 1890s, the period in which railroads and civilization, and civilizing ideas kind of closed off some of the wildness of the West. I think that's best symbolized by the two guys that I end the book with the last gunfighters really, which cast in the Sundance Kid, aka Harry Long of all. You know, they ultimately I end the book with their decision, pursued by the Pinkerton's, and every lawman in the West, it seemed, they actually did go to New York, they boarded a freighter, and in hopes that they could raise cattle. In South America, they went to Argentina. And that seems to me the place to end the era. I love that movie, which casting the Sundance Kid from 1969. If you haven't seen it, it's still good, it holds up well, it's Redford at his best. And that was strangely the movie that got me all started when I saw that when I was alive. So I think those are the factors that led to the end of the story. Certainly, gunfighting and gun fights continued in parts of the West into the 20th century, but they were no longer really part of the zeitgeist. They were no longer celebrated, they were frowned upon. And so I felt that was a fair place to end the story. Rapid fire. I don't know if deadliest is the same as toughest, the most brutal, scariest, but if you had to pick one, who is it? John Wesley Harden of Texas. Who would be the most likeable fighter? Who's the biggest fraud? It's a toss up between three while Bill Hickock, who we've discussed, a guy in Texas named Wild Bill Longley, who claimed something like 38 killings. The exact number would appear to be four. Or the other guy that we mentioned from Tombstone, a Texas gunslinger named Johnny Ringo, who got terribly famous in the 20th century, I think mostly because he had a cool last name. And there's no sense that the only time we ever know that he drew a gun for sure was twice. He shot a minor in some type of drunken brawl like winged him. And the other time, he shot himself because he committed suicide. Who designed these prisons? Prisons kind of were a lagging indicator of technological expertise in the Old West. My favorite ones were the first jails in Texas, which were essentially holes dug into the ground. And the jailer would sit on a chair beside it and look down. That was the jail. Look, it just of all the things that needed to be built in all of these new towns that were built. The first thing you're going to do is have some housing, a hotel, maybe a saloon, jails, especially in small places. And even prisons, they're just, the legal system wasn't robust enough that there was a huge demand for putting people behind bars. The gap between how we romanticize this era versus the reality, I try to think of like other time periods. Because I think most of us realize like, hey, if you were walking around mid-eval times, it probably wasn't that great. So, I guess all in here, was it actually an awful time in an awful place to live? I don't think you can say that it was either a one or a ten. You know, it was what it was, meaning this violence was not in your face. You didn't live with gun violence every day. That's an overstatement. On the other hand, we now know from big data techniques that the Old West really was as violent as we always thought it was. But Ryan, where I come down to end on that is just, you know why it was awful? No electricity, no toilet paper, no deodorant, no feminine products. It was a different level of hygiene than we accept. And the idea that this was barely 150 years ago is still jarring for me to grasp. There's so much more in this book. There's so many names that I didn't touch on because I mean, again, we could do it forever. And I'm not surprised you're going to have a podcast series on all of these different characters. So, about as fun a time as I've had reading in a long time. So, thanks, Brian. I'm honored and pleased. Thanks, man. We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. Bill Lucky, you should be. Meet the new Lucky One Sweet Tea from Miss Peaches. The vodka drink that's positively doing good. Made with real tea and real vodka, non-carbonated, the 100 calories. And here's a scoop. Their new sweet tea is the only Vodka-based sweet tea on the market, simple ingredients in a smooth full flavor that makes it taste just like the real sweet tea. The best part, every can helps rescue dogs find their forever homes as they work to a goal of donating $1 million to dog rescues in 2026. So, if you love true sweet tea, this one's a no-brainer. Pick up a Lucky One Sweet Tea today and give back one can at a time. Football seasons here, and whether you're grinding your way through the week or gearing up for kickoff, there's one ride that's always game ready. The Chevy Silverado. As a reason, Chevy is called the heartbeat of America, and Silverado keeps that heartbeat strong. Whether you're towing, hauling, or tailgating, Silverado lets you show up strong and tackle any task. With best in class standard torque, the most functional bed, and the advanced tech that's football guy approved. Check out offers on the 2026 Silverado at chevy.com. You want details? I drive a Ferrari, 355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you can possibly imagine. And best of all kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Life advice, life advice,
[email protected]. That is the email. Let's get to it. Am I cheating or just maximizing opportunity? Jim stats 510. So you grow. I'm not cheating. I'm opportunity maxing. All right. 510, no max bench, but rep in 225 in the bench for five times played lacrosse in college at a small D3 school. This guy has finance written all over. I haven't been in a relationship. What's that? And opportunity maxing. Hope you still run those pennies every once in a while, dude. Just to take yourself back. I have one. Doesn't fit. I've worn it to the gym a couple times. So I look like an asshole. Yeah. Yeah. The trainers like you. You made a decision today. I'm like, yep. You're not afraid. Right. I see that. I'm not going to work out of this. No. I'm just going to want to rip it open. You know, I think it's tight. No, I lost so much weight over like.
I don't know, there's like a month there. So I don't know what's going on. Got real light, real light for your boy. - That lettuce virus, or? - No, I did a three day fast. - Oh, damn. - Still haven't started that one. I told you I was gonna do it in winter time. - That was pretty bummed out, so it was easy. (laughing) I was like, you have an eatin' all day. I was like, you know what? Let's do the three days fast. - We just train only a friend. - Two more days going. - Yeah. - Was it during all those transactions you hated for the MBA, or just like? - Oh, shit. - I haven't actually-- - So you get your friends contact. - That's a good job, man. - Nothing to do with that. - That's a hunger strike. (laughing) - Look, Minnesota thinks this mellow thing's gonna be good. (laughing) - Oh, you get it when the brunch is a team, man. - Text to Tim Conley, I'm not gonna eat for three days because of this. - The protest here. - You just text back, who is this? - Oh, man. - I can't wait to see which week of the season Lamello stops throwing lobs in Rudy Govera. - Oh boy. - Just try and figure that out. But yeah, three days fast. - Your mood will go right up. - Right back up when you see that, though. So you know it's coming. - It's just gonna be so funny, 'cause like Dillingham kept throwing him past, as you can see the other guys were like, yeah, we don't do that here. You know, it's not a thing we do. - All right, so. - Speaking of the Allettis virus, by the way, my wife got mad at me yesterday 'cause I didn't wash, I had a salad in wash. I didn't know, I'm not aware of what's going on. So I ate a lot of lettuce for yesterday. I had no idea. People looked at me like I was buying a crack. (laughing) - Yeah, but why are we selling, exactly. If it's so dangerous, what are we selling? - Yeah, why is he here? - All right, take it off the shelf. What do you want me to do? - I gotta find, like I've been making like a chop salad where I'll just, we got a great store of atoms near us and I'll like, instead of buying like the bags of lettuce, the triple wash or whatever, I'll just get like, looks like it just came out of the, came out of the back of the truck and I find that hard to wash. I really do. So I've been, I've been taking chances. - Yeah, I had a iceberg in there in the shop. - Yeah, or, yeah, Romaine. Some just like the, and it's like way bigger than you think. The ones you see in the store are like, you know, skinny. So there's some healthy lettuce, but I just find it hard to get in there and wash. I've ate my way through decades of lettuce crisises. So at this point, just, you know, - Do you want to go on and get me from like, G-U-M, I've swallowed from like the ages eight to 12 and there's so much, so much. - Dude, we didn't need that. - I guess, all right, we knew what you meant. - What the hell, bro, whenever, not all of it, but yes. You're good, chewing gum just the one last time, one last time. - Oh man. - Dude, wash and let us. - It's such like a subtle. - Whatever was going on in your brain when you did that. - It'd be like, I did swallow gum, dude. - Yeah, make sure they know what's going on. - What's he doing? (laughs) - Whatever. - What did he say? - I'm like sweating over here now. I don't even think I didn't even say anything crazy, but I don't even want to do sweat in the evening. - What was this guy who's thinking about studying the blog? - Chewing in the air. - Maxing something, yeah. - All right, so here we go. I haven't been in a relationship for about two years. My ex broke up with me, which is relevant because I initially broke up with her and she did everything besides cheat on me as far as I know. And then she broke up with my ass. Okay, I recently gone on two dates with two beautiful women. I've kissed both of them. No big deal. But I'm not sure if I'm scared of another relationship or I'm just bored and walk companionship. Woman number one, let's call her Doja Cat. Okay, she's telling it. (laughs) - Yeah, now we got the giggles. That's gonna be tough. - Yeah. - This is gonna be tough. All right, we need it sometimes. She's tall and I find has a great sense of humor. However, as a lack of finance, bro, it seems to me, she does not have lofty goals in her future. Woman number two, let's call her Ann Hathaway. She's also tall and super into being active and lifting which I love. See, however, she's poor at communicating. No comma, my ex, I can't sometimes you guys. However, she's poor at communicating. My ex and I were somewhat long distance and I know I have a fear of long distance. Again, not only have I kissed both of these women on back-to-back days, yes, dude. But as a finance bro who lives in New England, I eventually wanna move to the South and build a family down there. Love that. Love that you've got. You already get it figured out. First question, am I a whore? You guys wanna take that one? - No, sure answer no. - Yeah, you did. - I don't even think you've qualified. - I think no. - Yeah, I don't think you pay people, maybe you do pay people to kiss you or whatever. But I think I don't even think you've entered that role. - If we build in more a whore tournament, you wouldn't even have a number next year, right now. - Yeah, dude, sure. - Don't worry about it. You don't even need a shower after what you've been up to. - Yeah. Second, should I continue to play this slow and enjoy the opportunity I created? Lastly, I could be wrong. Feel free to call me a misogynist. But don't women, parenthesis, generalization, have an idea of the men they can date as options or at least have a plethora of men to have to not be lonely. He's attached to a picture himself, having a brusky with the boys. - Nice. - Sounds like he's just dating, right? I mean, with everything I've heard, I don't think there's, I think this back-to-back kissing is just really just messed with his chemistry here. He's on like a time release lock. - He's like, it's too early. (laughing) - The neutrons are just buzzing around in there. - Honestly, I think this email kinda means that if you're not the thing you think you could be potentially being, right? It's okay. You're a young guy. You broke up with somebody. He kissed Doja Cat, then Ann Hathaway, back-to-back. Guys would write a book. - Things are going. - They're able to pull that. - Yeah, so I don't, other than you being caught up a little bit in your momentum here and then being bummed out about it, I would say you're, what you need to do, you're on your to-do list, is to think the opposite of yourself with this. Just be happy, you know? Just be happy that people are interested in you. Be happy that- - Be nice to my friend. - Yeah. - Yeah, right. Like, don't get in your head about this shit. I mean, of all the things you can get in your head about and waste some of the time with a little voice in there. This is not one of them. You'll look back and laugh at yourself for even sending in this email in two years. Guarantee. - 100%. I actually have nothing to say about this, other than Ann Hathaway. You guys seeing the pictures? - I've seen. Well, she's pregnant. - The little bronze aims of actresses has been thrown around. She's one of one. - Goddamn. - I don't care. Yeah, I mean, I'm not just saying 'cause she's in inception or excuse me, interstellar. - No, interstellar. - Yeah, my bad. - And the Odyssey. - And the Odyssey too. - Yeah, and the Odyssey. - It looks great. Looks great. Good for her. - Yeah, I think this guy's going to do well in the South. He's got morals clearly. So I think once he finally heads down South, he's going to have a great family. - I think he's going to have a great family. - New that was coming. - That's such a great line. - It's such a great line. - And the look he gives him back is what he did. - You think you'd like pro, you do very well there. I think that's the line. - All right, wife wants me to get a vasectomy. 39, six foot, 185, poor man's kelly olympic with a Jaylen Brown Esk, one handed handle. No impressive gym stats, but I did complete a tough motor in 2013. And ran the Falmouth Road Race Shadow Cape Cod as a road runner on a whim in 50 minutes in 2017 the morning after working a restaurant shift. I think this guy's, I think it's okay to say this guy's, quote, built different end quote. As the subject line states, my wife wants me to get a vasectomy some background. We've married nearly seven years together for 12. We have a three year old daughter, a three month old son, and an 11 year old golden retriever. During the birth of our son, she had it have an emergency C section because he had a 95%ile head size and weight potential future NFL left tackle. - Everything turned out something? - Yeah, well, you want a regional percentile here or you want a global one? - No, I just think it has Norwegian. - I thought so, right? - That was in the Norwegian. - Yeah, I was stuck on the region thing. - I was watching deadwood not too long ago and they would call those guys block heads. I don't know if that was like big square head or maybe that meant something worse, but. - I just googled country with the biggest heads. I'm not sure I want to read the answer, so. (laughing) - Okay, can we leave that alone? - Okay, all right, back again. - Everything turned out fine. Both mom and baby are happy and healthy, okay? Well, that's great to hear. The other night after a few drinks, following a family outing to a summer concert series along the Cape Cod Canal, my wife brought up me getting a vasectomy in a half joking, but also a very serious way that women often broached these types of conversations. The topic has been brought up before and just not into it at all.
I tell her that we've only ever gotten pregnant movie planned to and we've never had any scares her line of reasoning is that she's gone through it All one traditional birth a miscarriage last summer followed by the c-section birth this April and everything that comes with it Weight fluctuation hormonal imbalance breastfeeding pumping and rebuilding her abdominal wall Yeah, man. She's making some pretty good points And me getting vasectomy would have signed in my appreciation for all she's done for our family I deeply love her and our family and forever grateful for the amazing mother. Why she is she's the best But I don't want any type of elective surgery done in my boys She's tried shaming me call me scared or was that probably fun again a hat joking, but very serious tone And that tactic just makes me double down on my stance. I kind of a good couple. We got a couple competitors going out of here I avoided a potential slightly buzzed argument by leaving it off With I'm open to learning more about reality as I don't want to do it I don't think it's necessary I think it's not to compare childbirth and a vasectomy as it's natural c-section aside Though it's very common and a vasectomy is not it's not about me wanting to have another kid down the road I don't okay. I was wondering if that was floating around back there But what is getting through to me more is the sacrifice that she's made and a vasectomy is a son of appreciation Slash-in-kind gesture to my close high school friends We've had vasectomies and have said it's no big deal and everything works the same Oh, he says two of my close friends have just no bullets in the gun so to speak But I don't I still don't see it that way I simply don't want to go through the rest of my life neutered am I being an asshole if I continue to hold my ground Should I appease my wife's wishes to get a vasectomy? I need some advice on how to approach the inevitable next conversation about this And if I should change my stance on this big fan of the pod I mean I have one Yeah, I don't think I would have gotten it if my wife didn't want it But I also got it if she's haunting you about not getting it or do you see no idea? I think I would have dug my heels in but totally that's the biggest bummer here But she was like hey, I you know we had not you know some sort of I don't know how to say this there were some things about there were some complications with just the pregnancy in general nothing like Super insane, but something that we had to like be aware of and it made sense to get a second me afterwards. We only wanted two kids um And I got the rubber band the second me too, which is like not the not there's no wear it all time Yeah, this rapid real tight Which is like so supposed to be pretty like not evasive whatever and it wasn't a big deal all it's also reversible Right, it is reversible. So like I so him saying like For the rest of his life like they basically make that very clear when you go to the doctor's office I had a lovely time there was a great experience in an out. Um, I feel nothing different at all Afterwards after like you know a week full of ice packs down there. So I I think you're being a little bit of a deep is what I met you though My muscle mass is never been high So I'm just kidding any lower now, but no, if there's like there's just nothing bit There's just there just isn't a it's just not a big deal at all like I didn't I didn't know what you expect going in It was super easy the recovery was nothing and again They told me a thousand times if you want to reverse this you could reverse this So I feel like you're right Kyle like if she was a dick about it to me I'd probably be like a little bit more you know defiant But she wasn't and I got it and I have no regrets. Yeah, it sounds like we skipped over the on the understanding part from her Where it's like yeah, this is kind of a big move growing up This seems like a thing that you want to protect with your life. You know what I mean? You survived the part where your friends Are always hitting each other in the balls and now it's like now. We're gonna like change them fundamentally I think like telling a do a youngish do that is like yeah There might be something he's got to get over mentally there But it seems like we just rushed to the like oh what you're so scared and you don't appreciate me and like in the digs It's that's tough. That's really tough. I don't like that. He's 39 though. Oh And he says he doesn't want another kid. Yeah He could sit there say hey, we've it's only happened when we planned it, but I had that thought too, but like it's it it is hard As especially as you get older to get pregnant I like it's always funny like we talk about this like in high school You're like oh man if you just like look at a girl the wrong way she can get a pregnant And it's like I know it's actually kind of hard to get pregnant There's like windows and different things like you just don't know that probably smart to tell them It's easy to get pregnant when they're younger but so yes I understand what you're saying like you can be very Deliberate about when and how you do things like that's totally true But again, if your wife wants it it is it is fair to like You know my wife didn't have a c-section But you know went through different things that that were obviously difficult and you're kind of just sitting there being like Okay, so all I have to do is just you know this one part and she does all the rest of the stuff and like it does I don't want to say there is a fairness element to it But if it's the one thing that she's asking for and it's not that big of a deal and it's reversible I'm not telling you what to do, dude, but like it just seems like something that's pretty sick Yeah, and the guy's version of this is like 25 times easier than the the woman version of this right - so you don't have that you don't have that in your corner Yeah, I don't know I like I don't think you can say like you know what maybe I would have been more receptive But you just been really nasty about this Like I don't think I think you can point there too. I think you even lose points there too. So this is a tough one. I don't know I mean, maybe you could do the march madness thing Just hold her off till till those two weeks, but I don't know This is a it's tough because like your pride's involved in multiple ways So I don't I don't know I don't understand how Like guys big oh, you're less of a man. Well, I don't I don't understand that I feel like humor is not stand that intelligent humor. It's just like Oh, you're going to just like guys making fun of each other I'm just saying like this guy clearly things like hey, I would be less of myself I had a sect of it, which I just don't really understand like what do you want to go around like you if you want to go around spread and seed You couldn't again, it's reversible like I don't know what like how big of a deal this is But he doesn't even want to do that. That's not even part of his argument. I gotta tell you man You're not making a great case in this email and I will tell you Every one of my friends that has had it Anyone that even had anxiety about it was like I can't even believe I had any anxiety about this whatsoever It couldn't be simpler. So there's that I mean when you lay out that she is sitting there saying hey I went through this. I went through this. I went through this. I would like you to do this for me It's gonna be hard for like Maybe the the Andrew thalls will be like absolutely not broke. You know hold the line. Yep. Uh I don't you you have not made if I were a judge and these are the two cases that were presented here I don't know that you would win her negotiation skills suck if we want to give him some credit It's like she's now. I don't want to do and I definitely don't want to do this for you because it sounds like what did you call She called him a pussy a baby like a bunch of like that and like air from your wife. I could just imagine how that's gonna be And I may be back to stop. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean you can't ask her that's the other thing too You've known her this long. Okay, you've been together. You love this person. You want to spend the rest of your life with him but Now she's bullying you. Yeah But but here's my my question you are you less likely to get it because you don't like her approach like the fundamental thing You would be more willing to say yes to that she desperately wants if if she sold it better or differently Well, that's how you should probably do with it if that's part of the resistance No, I agree, but I mean there's I'm not gonna say there's no one you get matter at than you're specific than you're significant But there's a certain lane that of like anger and frustration that you can only have with somebody who knows you so well And can get to you so well, you know what I mean this thing doesn't last forever But I'm saying there's a certain lane like sort of how like Steve says what he's like driving in the car It's like that's there's only a certain type of mad I can get Driving in the car and mad may not be the right word, but like frustration or whatever and like I could see this be fitting into that perfectly like she's taunting me about this thing that I am For black we're better words scared of doing it. I feel uncomfortable about it And she's like now resorted to like bullying me and like a 13-year-old's version of bullying so I could see how that's like a recipe for frustration But I think it should probably end and probably ends with you you losing this one Maybe just don't tell her about it. You just do it on your time. Although you I guess you'd have to have the recovery So she would know but Kyle had that that brings up a good point do it around a time where like you want to just do nothing and sit in the couch for a weekend That's the best way to do it When they're going to visit her folks Yeah, sorry, dude, you know, I just Yeah, it's the only weekend they had I'm gonna miss church group Yeah, you pantry thing. That's the luck. Yeah, yeah, that your family reunion in in Washington I don't I think I'm busy that one Damn it That would be kind of the ultimate get back if it's about the competition Pick the weekend you desperately don't want to do something that she wants to do Think about it. You get one You get one. All right. That'll do for the show. Thanks Kyle. Thanks to Steve. Thanks to Tom Kevin the Rhymer solo show are still sports You
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