Russell Westbrook’s One-of-One Career With Kirk Goldsberry, Plus College Football and Coaches With Van Lathan and Chris Ryan

The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. We put up two rewatchables last week. We did the Italian job. We did about last night. And then on Monday, we have the re-speed. We are doing speed again. We did it. It was a really, really good episode, Misha on Fantasy and Chris Ryan, the OGs. We did this. We're very early on in the rewatchables run. So now we did it again with way, way, way more categories. And that is coming for you on Monday. I'm not sure if I'm going to have two more podcasts or three this week. I'm going to have at least one possible week two. So stay tuned. And then after this week, I'm going to go hard in the football. I've been very careful this year. I've been trying not to do too much NFL before we got close to the season because I felt like I did too many segments last year and I basically gave you all my takes for the season before I did the preview with Sal. So Sal and I talked about it and Sal and those guys are breaking down on ringer wise guys, which you can watch down on YouTube and Twitch and Spotify. They've been breaking down division by division and Sal has been hosting it and steering it but being very careful about giving too much away. So when we do our giant extravaganza on Thursday the 27th, a two-parter AFC NFC, I'll hopefully have some very first, I have some hot NFL takes this year, I'm really trying to save them for toward the end of August. So on this podcast, Russell Westbrook retired. I had to break out the old Book of Basketball pyramid breakdown format that we did for a few guys if you remember and you can find all of those by the way in the Book of Basketball Podcast feed. Wanted to deep dive on Russell Westbrook's career. The strangest career of any top-hunter guy ever and we're going to explain all the reasons good and bad, why I'm probably a little more of a defender than most of us but he is so much fun to talk about. So Kirk and I did a bunch of that and then I had Van and Chris when they were here the other day. We talked about coaching and a whole bunch of college football stuff and after we did rewatch them as we just kind of kept the cameras on and went. So I was saving that for the Sunday Pots. So that is going to be the podcast we're going to take a break, Pearl Jam and then Kirk Goldsbury and I on the career of Russell Westbrook. This episode is brought to you by one of my best friends in life, NFL Sunday ticket. Man, I missed it. Kickoffs coming. Yeah. We're getting close. We're within a month. With NFL Sunday ticket and YouTube TV, you get every game every Sunday all in one place and it's magnificent and there's no other way to follow the NFL season. I'm so mad I didn't get YouTube TV until a couple of years ago because it's the best. New users that might include you can get NFL Sunday ticket for eight payments of just $30 a month. You heard me correctly. New users pay $204 or eight, eight non-cancable payments of $30 a month. First charge at purchase availability varies with NFL Sunday ticket for out of market games and YouTube TV for local national games, YouTube TV required terms or restrictions and embargoes apply commercial use excluded no refunds. All right, Kurt Goldberg is here. My old Grant Land teammate. There's nothing going on. It's mid-August. There's some baseball stuff that hasn't really got an interesting yet. There's football preseason. We had a basketball event that happened and it was not the basketball half-day. Russell Westbrook surprisingly retired and I figured this would be a good time to dust off my old book of basketball gimmick. But before we do that, we break down Westbrook's career. Before we do that. Are there any NBA thing that interests you right now or is this full hibernation mode for you? No, I have an idea for you coming off of your podcast, but I think we should save it for the end. Let's do rust, dude. Okay. Let's dive into rust. You're going to save your thoughts until we get going. I'm going to use the book of basketball format that I used when I did this in I think 2019, 2020. I'm going to read something at the top. I wrote this in 2012, it was a piece of a column, but I was amazed how it is held up for Westbrook who retired last week who played 18 years in the NBA and who I think it's fair to say was probably the most discussed argued about player of the entire Grantland Ringer era, Grantland formed June 2011. I think people had the most takes one way or the other. He spawned the most arguments. He bridged the advanced metrics era as it started to grow. We're going to go on to that. But this is what I wrote after game four of the 2012 finals, which Oklahoma City lost. They fell behind Miami three games to one. If you remember, Westbrook did not have a good game three. Was awesome in game four, it was 20 for 32, it was all over the place and just was one of the more electric losing finals performances. We had the last 20 years. This is a piece of the column I wrote. He's been the most polarizing player of the 2012 finals. No small feat considering the second most polarizing basketball player of all time happens to play for the other team. Interesting there Kirk because I had LeBron as second most polarizing at the time, no longer in the top 20. I don't feel like he's polarizing at all, right? No, people forget that LeBron James was the most hated athlete in America when he first got to Miami. I swear to God. Yeah. They gave me an interview for him in 2013 in part because people hated LeBron James when he went or took his talents to Miami for sure. So much is he ever going to, is it ever going to happen for him? Does he happen inside him? So he was second at the time I wrote that. Well, we'll always be the first most polarizing basketball player of all time. Anyway, Westbrook's detractors don't ever expect him to find the right balance between competitive and reckless. They believe he's a shooting guard masquerading as a point guard, like a better version of Steve Francis that he takes too many shots away from the more efficient Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City, cannot win the title until they swap him out for a true point guard, parentheses, say, Rijon Rondo. This was another conversation we're having in 2000. Did they need more of a pure point guard to set up Kitty? Westbrook's defenders accept his faults because they're a small part of the greater good. He brings so many unique things to the table, fills the stat sheet in so many different ways, competes so freaking hard every game and remains such a good nature teammate. They're fine with any collateral damage. The 2012 Zambi Sonic, this is when he's come, the Zambi Sonic's made the finals partly because they're relentless a young and relentlessly athletic. That's Westbrook in a nutshell. You love those teams, right? Those 2012. Well, I was a spurs fan and that spurs team they beat was one of his crowning achievements. Remember how hot that spurs team went? Oh, yeah. 120 some games into the playoffs and were two games up in that series and then Harden, Westbrook and Durant and Baka put them away. Yeah. That was a crazy team. Yeah. All right. Here's the rest of whatever. In game three, a semi-neudered Westbrook, carefully tiptoed through the first two and half quarters, ratcheted things up after Durant's fourth foul, played poorly and earned a conspicuous "rest" from Scott Brooks. That was a dangerous moment for Oklahoma City, not just for this series, but long term, something that he is, Pans, Jeff, and Gunny, caught while and outs in the game. Remember when Jeff and Gunny used to be on the basketball game, he missed those things. When Vin Gunny, coached in Houston, he came to regret how he handled Francis, a similarly explosive guard who struggled with his competitiveness, reckless calibration instead of embracing the electro quality as the made Francis special. He steered Francis toward being more of a pure point guard inadvertently compromising his game. He didn't need a translator to figure out why Vin Gunny brought this up during game three of the 2012 finals, now time for a name drop. I actually ran into Vin Gunny outside of Miami Hotel on Monday night, one day before the biggest game of Westbrook's young life, we used to stay at the Mandarin Oriental, or ESPN thinks. It was great when the nicest hotel's. I brought up his Francis comparison and threw out one of my hair brain theories at him. The 10% theory, even the best NBA players have holes in a best case scenario they're tapping into about 90% of their total potential, with the holes representing the other 10%. We can either dwell on the 90% or we could dwell on the 10% and some holes are less glaring than others. Do you believe in this theory just in general for stars? Everybody has a 10%. Yeah. Everybody has a flaw. Everybody. Even LeBron James. Well, I wrote, for instance, Larry Bird's biggest hole was his inability to fend quicker forwards without help, same for Dirk Nuitzky. You could hide that specific hole in the right team with the right coaches, the right teammates and even the right matchups, but something like Regen Rondo's shaky jump shot, or the Botox face that afflicted Carl Malone and Crunchtime. Well, there's this case of the 10% flashing like a neon sign again. Some holes are more glaring than others, but everyone has holes, what Kurt Goldberg just said. It's tougher to see Kevin Durant's 10%. He's not strong enough yet to prevent defenders like Shane Badayah from hounding him 25 feet from the basket and denying him the ball. And he's not a consistently good enough defender yet. Now, he kind of fixed that, right? Yeah. got better at both those things. It's easier to see that than West or harder to see that than Westbrook's 10% his recklessness, which permeates everything he does good and bad. You notice when Westbrook shoots 27 times, you notice when he breaks an ill-fated three in a huge spot and you notice when he's bowling someone over for a charge because he thought he could dunk over three guys. And still, as I mentioned, Avangundi Westbrook does so many positive things that those 10% plays are something of a tax for the overall Westbrook package, right? I think under your greed, wholeheartedly, he believed Oklahoma City needed to win or lose this series in their own terms, not some idealistic media driven belief about how they should be playing. Westbrook will never be John Stockton and ain't happening. We both wanted to see Westbrook be Westbrook again, one of the week's most fearless competitors someone who brings a ton of things to the table and takes a few things off to. I wrote that in June 2012 and that became his career. He took some stuff off. He brought a ton of stuff on. He never totally figured it out. He never won a title. That was the only finals game he won in game three. Never got back. And yet, I think that now is the years past and especially as a bench guy, Kirk, the last few years where he was never the right fit on the right team as a bench guy. He came close a couple of times, but the flaw, the 10% started to feel like a 30%. I still, I'm going to give you my pyramid ranking lately. I still feel like he's one of the top 60 players ever. I also don't think there's ever been a career like it. Like it. So let's start there. Is there another guy you think in the top 75 top 100 that remotely resembles this bizarre Russell Westbrook career? I mean, I yield to you, but when you talk about the triple doubles, two names immediately come to mind, right? Is Oscar and magic. Magic is on a whole different level in my opinion as one of the greatest players of all time, the greatest point card of all time in my opinion. If it's not Stefan Curry, I think I'd still give it the magic. Call me crazy, but the combination of the counting stats, the triple double for the whole season, one in MVP, two scoring titles and assist title, I believe. I mean, just from a counting stats perspective, it's, it's an all-time great, great run. And the other thing is like, who would have thought when you're writing that column in 2012, Bill Simmons? That was the only time we'd see this dude in the finals. It's almost like this spurs team were watching in 2026. If you would have said, oh, that was the only time Dylan Harper made the finals or Stefan Castle or Victor women, Yaman, we had, we had that team pegged like we have this spurs team pegged. They were going to be around for a long time, but ultimately, statistically, he's a very unique player. And I'm sure there's a lot we'll get into with the advanced stuff. But the stats we have that allow us to compare Apple staples back to Oscar Robertson. That's the, that's the comp I'd land on. Yeah, he's, I tweeted this out today, there's only three players ever that have done 25,000 points, 7,000 rebounds and 7,000 assists in their career. And it's him and Oscar and LeBron. But then if you go backwards, there are also the only guys who have done this with 20,000 points, 7,000 rebounds, 7,000 assists. If you drop it to six and six, the number goes to eight, but that's how like rare the career totals are. And I think the counting stats, I think he's going to be a really hard guy to figure out 50 years from now when people are just trying to study clips and basketball reference. He played 18 years, nine all star, who's the 2017 MVP. As you mentioned, top four MVP three times, second first team on Bay twice, fifth, five times second all NBA and second, third, including that Houston season, which I forgot, he made 13 of NBA in the lockout season. He was the second best guy in the finals runner up in those 2012 playoffs, 23, five and six, 28% from three, 37 games, which will be a recurring theme for this pot. His four year peak was 27, 9 and 10, triple double, three straight years. In the 14 and 16 playoffs, which were the other two times, OK, C came really close. He was 26, seven and 10 assists for 37 games, 30% from three. And after KD left, he lost nine of his last 11 playoffs. So I'll start here, the big question after everything we laid out. Would you have wanted to play in his team? Now, the answer is mostly yes, but it's a really interesting question because that's one of the number one ways I was trying to measure all these dudes against each other way back when like, this is why it's unfair to use stats with Duncan because everyone from his era loved the guy, loved being his teammate. He didn't care about counting stats. He just wanted to win. He won 72% of his games. I don't think they ever had a season where they had below 60 winning percentage with him. And it didn't matter who was on his team, the team just one and one and one. Would you want to be and rest of us for stand? I don't think so. I know that sounds harsh. You and I have talked about this for years, but the egalitarianism that sort of evolved with with pop of it just spurs and then curves warriors that really made the game beautiful and free flowing throughout the 2010s. That was the style that captivated me. And then there's the tension with other teammates. Obviously, I'm not an NBA player, but you look at some of the teammates, including LeBron James. Pretty recently, that were like, I don't think so. So definitely it has to be at least one of the reasons. Two of the, yeah. Two of the greatest players of my lifetime were like, I can walk away from this relationship. Also, I played with them too. And that was another one where he was like, I think I'm good. What would your answer be to that question, Bill Simmons? I think there's two different things. First of all, would I want to play in this theme? I think I would have in the first eight, nine years, even though he would have been frustrating in times, but because I, here's where he gets in house, watched him for a year and watched him. And it's like one of those last rest defenders. Westbrook played so fucking hard all the time that I don't know how you would have wanted to play with somebody like that day to day. Now, the question is, could you win a title with that? You know, you, you, I'm sure there was at least a small piece of the Tatum Brown thing and, and Brown leaving that Tatum after nine years, maybe, maybe he was good with playing with Jalen Brown. Like, I'm, I'm sure the longer you play with somebody, you start getting more and more annoyed by certain things. But the competitiveness that he had and the relentlessness and the fact that he was basically, he could play 80 games, 40 minutes of game in the playoffs. He was balls to the wall. He never seemed to get tired ever. I think I could have talked myself into it. The bigger question is if you're a GM or somebody running a team, right? Would this have been one of the two guys you would want to build around for 15 years? And I think it's really interesting that in the later part of his career, when O.K.C. got good again, and he's beloved and O.K.C. and pressed he loved him and defended him the most. There was a world where he could have brought him in in 24 or 25, 26 and they didn't. So that, now that's Roll Point Russ. It's a different version of him, but it's, it's also not nothing, right? Yeah, that's great. That's right up there with the KD, the LeBron. There's a lot of smoke there. I will say this because Russ is ultimately a hard player to pin down. You already said he's enigmatic, but I will say this as a ticket purchasing spectator of Pro Basketball. This dude is electric. One of the few guys, if you're watching a game in person or even on TV, you can just tell this guy's intensity is higher than anybody else in the game. And that was entertainment. Ultimately, Pro Basketball is a ridiculous form of entertainment where we have to pay a thousand dollars sometimes to go see these games. He gave you your money's worth. And I think that we can't forget that. Like he was a spectacle. It wasn't always smart. It wasn't always analytically correct, but to your point about his competitiveness, his ferocity, you wrote beautifully in your 50 shades of Westbrook column about his transition energy, like just going vertically for attacking the teeth of a defense. You got your money's worth. He was a hell of a fun guy to watch play hoops. Yeah, I wrote. So the MVP season, which we'll get into a bunch, but I wrote this about a month before the end of the season, his night to night relentlessness was unlike anything that's ever happened in the league. Who played harder for six straight months than Russell Westbrook just did? Did you ever see Russ get tired? Did you see him sweat? Did you see him breathing heavily? Have you ever seen a basketball star with a bottomless stamina tank? This wasn't an MVP season. This was performance art. Russell Westbrook gave more shits than anyone in the history of shits. And I think, I think that's accurate. And that's why like I enjoyed the MVP season as crazy as it was. And I almost think the answer with the GM is like, if he's my number two, I might be able to win a title, right? Okay, see, he almost did. And they were right there in 14. They were right there in 16. Very close. And I don't think he was the reason they didn't win. I also don't think he pushed them the other way either. But if I had to have a 49 win team where he was the only, where I could only have one good player, there's only a handful of guys who could have carried a team like that. And that was kind of his superpower why he's so tough to evaluate because he's on that like Kobe LeBron, the best guys who could have been like, I am just dragging these guys. to 48 wins. He could do it if he wanted to. There's only like two guys who've shot 40 plus times in a playoff game since 2010 and it's him both times. He would put you put the team on the shoulders and just go and I love he grew up watching Kobe right and that later a Kobe you could see that in his game like fuck fuck it I'm doing it myself like this defiance which is another word that always comes up with him is this just defiant attitude like I will I will win this game and like I said that's where I rest there was no player in the mid 2010's pre-curry that I was more excited to just watch a play basketball forget the analytics for a little bit just to be around it it was a show and that's let's really what this business is about. Yeah his greatest strength was also his biggest weakness which is he really always thought he was the best guy in the court. Yeah always it didn't matter who was on there and by the way the other players kind of regarded him as like that dude's all over the map but that guy's pretty good man that athletically there's a moment I remember writing about it the time the lockout era that lockout weird lockout season the 66 game season when this new wave of young talent was just really starting to arrive right Rose was there Rose Westbrook, Chris Paul, Doran and Hardin you can see the seeds for Kauai there was something there but this was this whole generation of athletes that had now arrived and the guards specifically were like we've never seen this before but I've never seen Westbrook and Rose I've never seen guards this athletic who could go to the basket like this who played this hard for the point that you feared for their safety Rose and I'm getting hurt Westbrook never really did except for the Patrick Beverly one that was bad yeah he had some knee injuries you know that Patrick Beverly play yeah he had a bunch of knee procedures I don't think that was was as bad obviously is what happened to Derek in that same era but yeah he put a lot of force on those knees it's amazing that he played as long as he did what does this bill an 18 year run it's one honestly one of the great athletes like I feel like what sport would he not have been awesome at I mean your men's man Jefferson like feed football would he have been like an incredible linebacker or a safe way that would have been one of my descriptions was like this was like Bo Jackson playing basketball right like that's how crazy of an athlete he was and like you think about Bo and Monday night football doing these crazy 90 yard runs and then breaking the bat over his knee and baseball that's what I it felt like the bono's version of basketball just a complete spectacle and again to give him his flowers 18 years playing that hard so regularly too and a league that has Kauai Paul George Joel and bead like this guy was reliably going to be there in his prime as as a as a producing player even played hard in the outside game this episode is brought to you by EA sports madden NFL 27 I was playing madden when you guys weren't even born yet take your love for the game further this franchise is powered by the all new persona engine that sounds interesting so it's your league to run hmm build it the way you want with a reactive league shaping every decision you'll have to make and if you want the full experience there's the kickoff bundle please don't tell my son fine tell him which has both college football 27 and madden NFL 27 standard additions from campus legend to NFL superstar make your rise with the kickoff bundle learn more at ea dot com rated e for everyone with mild lyrics users interact and in game purchases includes random items conditions and restrictions apply scan QR code for more info all right five things you need to know about Westbrook number one I wrote this in 2012 I'll be interested to see if we would add it or 2016 17 I wrote this in my lifetime I have seen only four their basketball players turn one on three fast breaks into layups whenever they wanted young barkly young Derek Rose Jordan and LeBron now Russ would be the fifth is there anybody since I wrote that in the last decade who would go in that list I was thinking about it I'm sure we're going to miss somebody but maybe like prime honest who would just the one on three is that's good all right let's add yannis truck and finish over somebody but yeah that's that's a pretty great list yeah um barkly was always my favorite I mean I'm the fan barker that that was always the best thing about seeing him in person you get the rebound and be like just going um Russ would be like I'm fucking going you better get out of my way or you're taking a knee in your chest so that's one second thing you need to know if you do the two man championship belt through the course of NBA history which I've done I think him and KD have it in 2014 um because I think LeBron and Wade together 11 12 13 they win the title and in 14 I think those two that combo together was the best two um 2015 to rank out hurt 2016 it's it's curry then anybody basically curry and clay pick anyone's curry but they did have the belt there and we're going to talk about that playoffs more um peak guards last 20 years just talking about peaks curry Kobe Wade SGA Harden there's five that were better than Russ CP3 Nash Brunson do you consider Luca guard oh yeah definitely that's nine Russ is probably 10th I don't think I missed anyone I went through but um he the peak Russ I think was one of the 10 best guards of the last 20 years but I think he's 10th all I think all five all nine of those guys I think could have been the best guy on a title team are close right and I'm not sure Russ could have Russ never want to play off series after KD left uh as the best guy so I think that's a fair list I think that's fair 2016 uh 2011 to the 16 playoffs third thing you need to know 76 playoff games they won 10 series in Oklahoma City they made the finals during that stretch 25 points six six rebounds eight assists 29% from three um and the bad ones were they blew the three one lead to Golden State the clay game it wasn't great down the stretch with him but the rant I almost feel like the rant gets a little more blame on at least the last two games um 2012 finals game five four for 20 field goal and then uh that series I felt like was after Miami won game four I think we knew that was probably over and then uh 2014 game six western conference finals against the spurs eight for 23 seven turnovers so there were a couple moments where he could have changed the legacy a little bit did not but I'm gonna slightly hold against them not too much the one of the notes on the 2012 finals game four you wrote about and in that column is he there's a jump ball at the end the thunder or down three there's 14 seconds left. Chalmers gets the ball the shot clocks at five they just need to stop them and then they'll have a chance to tie and in that moment Russ brain fart fouls Chalmers unnecessarily but sends them to the line that ice is the game so it still is best like big playoff performance in my opinion but it also ends in like sort of a quintessential frustrating Westbrook outcome or he makes like a brain fart at the end in in crunch time in 2012 game four and that's what I built the calm around which was he was already the polar as a guy this series because of how he played in game three game four had put together the most electric forty seven minutes possible and then made the brain fart and it was the complete experience and it's like yeah this guy is clearly a really important basketball player and you kind of saw everything in the same game every everywhere this career could go it all happened um 2011 they beat Denver in my in Memphis and playoff series in game seven and a triple double against Memphis they lost the Dallas 2012 swept Dallas beat the Lakers beat the Spurs 2013 was when he got hurt and we're going to go into that later 2014 beat Memphis and seven he had a 27 10 16 in the game seven in the running for best one beat the Clippers for two and we'll talk about game five in a second loss to the Spurs four two and then in 2016 beat Dallas beat San Antonio in six 25 7 or 11 for the series that was where Tony Parker was officially too old it's the last game and and it was Aldridge was there but it was kind of a between the two errors and then they lost to go in state he was seven for 21 in game seven so that was the run that's the closest he's come the fifth thing you need to know he was the most dissected Grandland Ringer era player of the last 15 years I remember fantasy wrote fantasy wrote what was this piece called against Russ yeah that was one of them think pieces we had everyone had their one or two anyone who wrote basketball for us had at least one thing piece you started you started working for a Grandland um second half of our Grandland run which was only four years but as the advance metrics and the shot charts was coming and was there a better shot chart than Russ no he was one of these guys was like wait a second when you look at it this way uh this guy is not actually that good at scoring the basketball uh his shot charts were we're always just eye popping that arrows say shot charts, sort of the anti-all stores were always him and Josh Smith. And I had to make a lot of those charts. Mattialas was another one, TLS. Yeah. What's going on with this guy? Yeah, there was some shot charters. A lot of the posts, some of the post-up centers never fared that well. No. But yeah, that first there are the shot charts. They're like, wow, that guy misses everything when he takes a three on the left. And, you know, and eventually the, the players I think got smarter and smarter to have to look at that stuff. All right, the eternal argument. This is a new category for Book of Basketball. The 2017 MVPCs and whether he deserved it or not. Zach Lone, I've been talking about this for 10 years. Yeah. Three people. I wrote a huge column at the end of the year. I picked Harden. Zach picked Kauai, Russ ended up winning. That's right. And one basically because of this awesome Denver game he had that everybody is on the fence. And then he played his best possible game on a Sunday. And it really kind of kicked it off. But where did you stand on the three do you remember? I was a, you were in the first San Antonio Spurs and a very big Kauai Leonard advocate as an analyst though. I mean, Harden, looking back 10 years ago, like that was just incredible. The Dantone Harden era was just a earth shattering analytics sort of extravaganza. So I think Harden, I'd be on team Harden in this one as much as I love the Spurs and Kauai. I was really torn. And you can feel it in the stuff I wrote back then and set on pods. Like, I hated his, I hated what OKC was doing basketball was. I hated it. It's against, it stands against everything I like. Right. It was one guy doing everything. Everybody else kind of standing around hoping that they'd have a chance to shoot or have a play run for them. But for the most part were just supposed to, you know, be the supporting actors in the Russell Westbrook one man show. And I hated it. But I also loved how hard he played it. It was like hard enough to get swept up in it. Like I wasn't against the MVP vote. I wrote a couple of things I wrote. Statistically, Westbrook is the biggest ball hog of all time. He's taken the delicate framework of a successful basketball team. Five players working together, sharing the ball, making each other better. And he's thrown it out the window. He's fueling a thundered team. That's a complete opposite of the 77 blazers 86 Celtics. Oh, five sons and 15 warriors treats his teammates like stage prop. And then I wrote OKC's best night to night chance meant serving the NBA's version of in and out menu. You can only order a Russell Westbrook. They serve Westbrook burgers with fries. So does the milkshakes get the Westbrook burger lettuce wrapped animal style. Just know you're getting Westbrook. Don't ask for anything else. He took 370 more shots that anyone else that season. He missed 14 shots a game. He shattered the usage rate record almost 42% and then had a 57.3% assistant percentage rate, which was the highest ever. And and then I wrote at the end. I loved watching Westbrook this season. I loved it. I never thought I'd see a big old try try triple double sequel again and blah, blah, blah. It was yeah, I don't know 40 to 42% usage rate ever eclipsed again bill. And the other thing that I think is fascinating is harden was sort of doing a version of this in Houston. And I look at these two guys as like biblical brothers like almost this cane and able. They they grew up together in Los Angeles. I think Westbrook almost goes to Arizona State ends up at UCLA as a unheralded freshman and then end up becoming a top top pick in the NBA. I had the chip on his shoulder the whole time. Yep. But yeah, both of them were sort of spamming over and over again the same kind of basketball. But in Dantonie Harden world, it was efficient. So the analyst community was okay with it. And then an OKC it was just like there were a lot of nine of 24 nights for 11 of 32 from the field. And the passing wasn't always there. But it was it was crazy to watch. And I don't think we'll ever see a player with the usage rate of 42 or higher. I just can't see that ever happening again. They somehow won 47 games. They had the 15th ranked offense. Houston had the second ranked offense that year. Harden was doing a lot of the same, you know, had the ball at the time stuff but did not have close to the same assists percentage. And you could argue it was making guys better. And that was the thing as you look back. I even wrote this at the time. Why wasn't Steve Adams's devastating and OKC as the Capella and the Nea Harrell trio was for Houston. Yeah. Why wasn't Old Depot better on a much better team? Why did the dump here in the Elisoba? Why is such a wasted rookie year for Demontus Sabonis? Everyone acts like Russ is playing with the Washington General C's two top three latter picks and three other latter picks in the playing rotation. And it's Cantor was there as well. And now is the year's past like they make the trade for Paul George and Sabonis and Old Depot immediately took off the moment they got away from Russ. So I don't think history has judged it that awesome. But you know, Harden just had way more success playing the same style. I think now, wouldn't you say that if that's the MVP season happened in 2026? I don't think there's any way restaurants. No, that's right. And that's that's again, his career coincides with this analytical awakening, this perimeter style revolution that starts with Harden and Curry just just finding efficiency in cool new ways. So you're exactly right. I think all the stuff that Jaylin Brown was going through that would have been times 10 people to been like the number two offense in the league. The discourse has just changed. It's updated for better, for worse, efficiency is king now. Although you could argue it hasn't changed because the Celtics had the number two offense in every one years that been saying analytics against Jaylin Brown. I think with I know I think with Houston versus OKC in 17, the fact that Houston's offense was so good that year. I think would have meant more if we under it was almost like we're the OJ jurors not totally understanding the DNA evidence yet. Yeah. Now looking back when I looked at the per 100 possession, all that stuff. And I was like Houston's offense was just clearly better, but his supporting cast. I think was fairly even to Brian Anderson, Eric Gordon. Yeah. I forget if it was Capella or Monterey. Nana and Harold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We got those. Some of those big men paid dead. So like you can look at the contracts downstream of the hardened experiences versus downstream of the Westbrook experience and see that James actually got these dudes paid. But yeah, that that rocket steam because we played them in the playoffs that year in San Antonio. They were terrifying. Remember that's the the series that hardened disappeared in the game back and used in Monu blocked James Harden from the back in the game in San Antonio, but that team was terrifying. And I believe they beat OKC in the first round of that playoffs in 2017 too. They did. And in hardened outplayed Westbrook for ultimate. Like now I wish we could vote for the MVP now sort of situation. It was a classic. Sometimes that happens. I have a defining game section. I knew what I had in my I was interested though. I'm going to work. The section is going to be brought to you by chat GPT. The Bill Simmons podcast AI sponsor and chat GPT where help me figure this out. I asked them. What was Russell Westbrook's defining game? What do you think the answer was? For me, it should be game six of the 2016 NBA Western conference finals. The clay game. Okay. Yeah. Chat GPT disagreed. It's response. If you mean the single game that best defines Russell Westbrook's career, I'd pick April 9, 2017 Thunderverse Nuggets. The line 50.16 rebounds 10 assists and a 36 foot buzzer beating three to win 106105. Now that was a pretty good answer because that was the game. The one in the MVP. We're all in the fence. That game happened on a Sunday. I think it was on national TV. And Russ was in 50, 16 and 10 and a 36 footer to win it. I think it was home. And after that game, everyone's like, all right, I give up. And he grabbed a lot of votes with that game. It's interesting that that was a regular season game that that they suggested. Yeah. Not a problem. I don't know if we're doing sliding doors later. We're doing a whole bunch of them. Yeah. Anyway, thanks to chat GPT where a company work even harder. Put chat GPT to work on your most ambitious ideas of projects. Try chat GPT work today available to plus and pro plants. Now we're going to what's age the best. I mentioned that 26.6. Like his career, he averaged 26 and 6. 700 plus games. Only nine guys have done that. LeBron, Jordan, Harden, Bird, Yoke, Drexler, Yannis, Westbrook and Rick Berry. And then I mentioned that other statue, the 20 K points, 6 K rebounds, 6 K assists. Yeah. So I have that. And then the other would say, it's the best. The counting stats of age grade for him. Yo, no KC and romanticize in that team. I know our friend Jonathan Abrams has a new book that he wrote that's coming out pretty soon about that okay see era. And that team like I just I look back at the 2012 finals and that 11 playoffs and just watching these guys that we all liked and not knowing what was going to be ahead of them. And then of course it didn't turn out the way we all thought for a variety of reasons. But I was going back and watching some of the clips of them in the 2012 finals when they beat the Lakers in 2011 and just how athletic and awesome that team was. I was like, I think that's age pretty nicely now, but when have team of that decade? Oh, for sure. I still have a picture in my office of the three of those guys together, because I can't believe it's real. Like the three MVP's, all babies, and they're leading together again, like the spur sort of right now feel kind of like that, but that's really rare. For me, it is, after he was, I think announcing his retirement, he claimed he was the best rebounding guard of all time. And I think he's got to claim to that bill. And you're the historian here, but I did a little research in the player tracking areas far and away. Has the most rebounds of anybody who plays the guard position. James Harden is up there. Josh Hart is up there. Luca Dongecipp, he's a guard. Oscar has to be up there. Yeah, so I think that's going to age really well. I think rebounds, they're not as sexy. People overlook them all the time analytically, but as a defending guard, if you can come in and grab the board and get that stop for your team, and he had that as well as anybody. I always liked that about Kobe, who was, you know, like a five or six-a-game rebounder normally. But in a big game, he'd go get him, you know. And the Westbrook was so quick to the ball at all times. I think, you know, there's definitely some padded stat stuff with the MVP season. And they would be, I mean, this is stuff that happened. I don't think it's a conspiracy. Like Adams would box his guy out, sort of, Russ could come in and get foul shot rebounds. And I think, okay, see, it was kind of understood if there's any foul shot rebounder goes to Russ. And little stuff like that. But just day-to-day, we tweaked game-to-game season in a season, like he was just so quick, he's grabbing the boards. I think, I think he probably is. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. I think that's a good way to put it. That, and then the, what do we say, six guys ever, one on three, fast breaks by themselves? I think we're, there's two things. All right. Biggest, what if sliding doors moment? It's crazy because I have three. We didn't talk about this. How many did you have? I have one solid one. What's your score? Give me or what? We can frame it either as the 2016, those two games together or the clay game. But after, okay, so fast-forward, we know Durant goes to Golden State after Cleveland beats Golden State. If OKC holds on, they're up eight points going to the fourth quarter of game six. They're up three points with a few minutes left in game six. The clay does this thing. If they can just win that game, Bill Simmons, they win the Western Conference. They would have ended Tim Duncan's career in the second round. They would have beaten that Golden State team in the Western Finals. And then I would ask you, do you think they would have beaten that Cleveland team? I think they would have been favorites. They would have had so much confidence coming out of those two wins. And not for me is the clear sliding doors moment. We already said he played one finals. That would have been a second one. I think they would have at least had a puncture chance of winning it, maybe even been the favorites. Does Durant leave even if they make the finals in Beekle and State? So for me, it's that. I had three, and that was my number one. Almost like a hockey. This is my number one star of the game. I went to game five when they were up three, one in the series. And they just sucked. And Durant was bad. Like those three Durant games were not good. And I think, I don't know, I still don't know what happened on those last three, but the crowd got into it and they beat them. But I still felt like they were going to go back to OKC and finish it because it was clear Curry wasn't a hundred percent. And OKC had, it was very similar in so many different ways to the Pats in '07 with the streak and the pressure a week to week of that streak. I just felt like the Warriors seemed like worn out, playoffs, finals the year before they win the title. That's a hundred game run. Then they start the next season. Steve Kerr misses the first two months. Then you have the 25 game winning streak, which became a real thing. And then they're going for 73 wins the whole time in that or 70 wins, they get. What was the bullsword? The bullsword? 72 and 10. I think it's 73 and they're going for that when they should have been, and I just thought it took them out. And I thought they were going back to OKC and it was done. Klegos nuts. And they still had a chance to win and it's, we did a podcast about it on the Book of Basketball Feet a while ago. It's an amazing, amazing rewatch and I almost said you're watching history change over the course of 20 minutes. Yeah. It's an incredible rewatch. First of all, the guys all look like babies, which is crazy, but then you look at the play by play and it is not kind to Russell West broke down the stretch. Takes that three turnovers in the definitive two minute stretch of the game. He blows a layup. He's forcing it to ramp, by the way, to your earlier point, took some bad shots early in the clock. And then you go to Steve Kerr side of the court and these guys are poised. The ball is moving. It's finding open shooters and it is, it was history defining. So for me, it's a clear number one. What are your other sliding doors moments though? Well, what if that, what if thing, if they do win, I don't know what happens to Durant if they lose the finals to Cleveland, right? Because now it's like, all right, now I'm going to go to go and say who I just beat. That feels weird. I guess it was weird that he went there after getting beat by that. Maybe he goes there anyway. If they win the finals, does he leave? You can't. You can't leave at that point. You're going to win the NBA title and then go. You probably would have been finals MVP. I would have guessed, right? How many times have we seen a finals MVP? I mean, Kawaii and Toronto, I guess, that was a weird situation. So how many times do we see a finals MVP just be like, I'm out of here, that's summer. It would have been a great battle. Yeah, that's the number one. My number two was the hard and trade, obviously. I don't. Now, maybe the hard and trade plays out. We always romanticize that at Grantland and, I was one of the worst trades of all time. Maybe after two years, that team falls apart anyway, right? And maybe Hardin's just not happy being like, I'm not manager, I should have my own team. And maybe that falls apart, at least that could have traded him for more than they traded for him at the time. But that's, we talk about he never got back to the finals. That's one of the reasons because the hard and trade, which still never made sense because it was a $4 million difference. Yeah. And you get Kevin Martin in there and it's just, they're still really good. They were still contender for years to come. But then what happens, James Hardin becomes the best offensive player in the league, arguably multiple seasons in a league that has Steph Curry in his prime. And that was, you traded him for Kevin Martin and Jeremy and Adam's pick, that ended up being the trade. But like you look at 13 and 14, and that leads to my third would have, would Beverly taking out his knee in the play after game two, they're playing Memphis. They had a real chance even after that trade of just winning the title that year anyway. If you go back and look at the records and the stats, both of those, Katie and Russ were two of the best six or seven guys in the league that year. Saint Antonio had that 2012, it was such like a punch in the face that they, you know, they kind of rallied back, but they weren't, I don't think anybody thought they were the favorites come out of the West. I think people were maybe thinking more like, okay, see, or the clips, the words weren't ready yet. But Beverly, in one of the cheaper plays of the last 20 years, awful, really, like just a shit play, and Hertz Westbrook knocks them out. So, you know, they have that, they have 12, they have, you know, they didn't get, you know, it's been swept under the rug. It was one of the last Stern era moments, but the officiating in the finals in the 2012 finals is a disgrace. It's like, I don't think they got a 50/50 call for five games. 2013, Beverly, Hertz Westbrook, 2014, which we're going to get to in a second was probably their best chance. And then the clay game, you know, and just never happens. It's hard to come out of the West, LeBron James, as he retreats back to the Eastern Conference learning that over the last eight years in LA. I mean, you have Popovich dunk in Genobley in one corner, then you have this curve, Steph Curry, Clay Thompson, Juggernaut, obviously the Dantonie stuff in Houston. It was really hard for that Thunder team to get even to the finals with these other Juggernauts in their way. Well, it's ages of worse. We mentioned a few of them already. I mean, one of them, he played with Durant for the first eight, they coincided for eight years, including Durant's MVP season and half of Durant's prime, basically. He played with James Harden in Houston when Harden was still one of the best offensive players in the league. And it got very close a couple of times played with LeBron and AD and the Lakers. He played with Paul George on the Thunder in 2018 and then end 2019 and then he played with Joker. It's played with some really good players. That's true. One final is tough for somebody who's supposed to be in the top 60 and Zach Levine that last year. Don't forget him. And Bradley Beale. He was Joe House rated forum for a year that counts that was actually one of the cool Westbrook seasons, right? So he he what I always say is 2010s. He's an icon. He's like an eight nine time all star in the 2010s That year in Houston people forget the pandemic comes and just destroys America and the whole world of basketball obviously and and He had figured it out with the Antony that we're playing the small ball thing in early 2020 go look at Westbrook's numbers He was actually a very efficient small ball center and and Antoni had found out how to use him He'd stop taking threes and jumpers and just NBA Kirk. Yeah, that weird pandemic. Have you ever happened? No, because it was the pandemic Yeah, I barely remember this either as as I've said over and over again, I remember anything from 2020 but They played the Lakers and the playoffs and guess what it wasn't working with Russell Westbrook as the small ball center Against AD and LeBron when AD was AD playing about as well as he's ever played and then they had other guys to bring in and all the sudden That strategy was not working the same way It was a gimmick. I think they felt like they had taken The Chris Paul piece as far as it could go. I'll still never understand Darryl making that trade But that's a great. That's a great point. It's a crazy I don't want to know who made that trade. That's one of the craziest trades ever more would say so where so we mentioned the advanced stats Did you have more advanced stats stuff for him? Well, I have that for what's age the worst for me as the shot chart guy It's clearly the shooting behavior the shooting numbers a few stats here jump off the page bill in the player tracking Erra he has taken the fourth most shots of everybody in the last 13 season he has the lowest scoring efficiency of the top 50 He's taken the 24th most threes in that player tracking area again. That's 13 seasons. He has the lowest three point percentage in the entire top 50 of that group For me the most frustrating thing for him and the thing that's aged the worst is his stubborn insistence on this jump shot That it should have never been a big part of his game. He was the best attack guard of his era times. Yeah, and when he would rise up as somebody who game planed against him when he would rise up for a jumper I can tell you everybody in the organization on the other side was like thank you Thank you for doing that because I don't want you to get anywhere near the paint or the cup and get fouled Please take that jump shot. That was something I wrote about one of the rest pieces I wrote about the smart teams versus the dumb teams How they defended them and the smart teams would basically wall them off They'd go under on every screen. Yeah, they would push him toward shooting between 20 and 25 feet and they were delighted when he did it Right, and then on fast breaks. They made sure they got back So just make sure you if they if we miss we have to get back or he's just going all the way down and the dumber teams didn't think the same way And he would get a lot of easy ones, but the the smart teams are like please shoot. I mean I had for a what saves the worst his three point shooting But a hundred and thirty five career playoff games What do you think he shot from three career playoffs? It's you'd well, I know he's a career regulars. You think he was under 30 or over 30% is this the Mendoza line from modern MBA the modern MBA Under over 30% I'll say under because yeah, there's a lot of bad shooting games in those playoffs. It's perfect. He was 29.9 percent So he missed the Mendoza line. He missed 70% of his three And if you were rooting for him or betting against him and he was taking a three you never thought it was going in and you were happy that he did it But here's the thing dude one one layer on that If he only shot good shots in rhythm behind the arc, it would have been 33 34. Oh, to impossible But so many check three is right one a game. It's like what are you doing dude? Like what are you doing? They're 16 on the shot clock like what are you doing? Yeah, so that's it that's for me what age the worst is always going to be that's that kind of thing Yeah, all still the well Russ from 2017 in 2006 won two playoffs areas last nine 2019 rockets 2025 nuggets were his wins and he was 1976 during that straight it's almost like the second part of his career 38% feel goal. He played For O.K.C. Houston Washington both L.A. teams Denver and Sacramento over a seven years span He turned into Phil Negro there at the end Everyone thought everyone got excited for him for two months and then but this was role player Russ was never going to be a thing that made sense No, the Denver year was sort of intriguing. I think that was the last stand if can we see him off the ball and Joker making him look good But then again the advanced stuff just Denver was a much better team when he was nowhere near the basketball court that year 2425 And then I mentioned from a what says the worst. Okay, so just not wanting to Double down on a point Where's like sorry? Yeah, like yeah, like so how many guys can you think of off the top your head that would come back for this Upcoming season because it seemed like he did not want to retire until He didn't have a choice there's so many of these guys that would come back for this one year In that beloved uniform and just you know sit at the end of the bench and and help the younger guys But that was not an option. I think that's a great point. Yeah, if you're a bench player. You're basically You're cooking at a restaurant once a week making a good meal, but not cooking every day Right, and if you're an awesome chef, you could cook every day and carry a restaurant And Russ was somewhere between an awesome chef and a diner chef And it's like you you'd want to go to the Russ diner right every night like the milkshakes are really good I probably shouldn't have this patty belt Yeah, but the service the servers might be a little rude sometimes You're not winning the James Beard Award with the rush at the Too early too late or just right is the next category. So Would you go for it for here? I was surprised by my answer. I have an obvious answer here I think he's clearly too late I think he would have gotten away with a lot of the stuff that like I'm sorry the shot chart and the analyst and All this stuff was it was the worst for him like you think a Antoine Walker or Allen Iverson or even Kobe to some extent like They got away with some things that would not have flown just 10 years later and that's when Russell I think he got caught in the game begin a little smarter analytically a little more thorough And so for me if you had done this in the 80s 90s or even the the first part of the 2000s he would have been Incredible and beloved 2008 draft for him Yeah, I went 12 years too late I think if he was in the Kobe draft and he got to play during like when the when the Scoring was really down when we had less good players. Yes, that's right. Like Jerry Stackhouse average 30 a game one year like during that era I think he would have been unbelievable. We would have been like oh my god. That's such a great point Plus you weren't expected to shoot three's right now he wouldn't have been able he wouldn't have been he the culture of the three point shot Didn't even exist. We were not picking apart those Iverson seasons when he had you know the big use of draight and Was shooting 38% every playoff series. We didn't care No, the pre-money ball and be he would have been he would have been a huge all-star scoring champion We this guy would have been great. He got to go see Westbrook It might not a one, but I think it would have escaped some of that sort of scrutiny that nasty nerdy scrutiny that did I think will always be part of the Westbrook experience. Sorry guys. That leads to nerd corner Oh I sent this to already I wrote in that 2017 piece. I still there's still time to do this if we created a stat called the Westbrook And just added usage rate and assistant percentage together assist percentage Just those two things the sister a assist percentage usage rate together Westbrook in the MVP season was a 99 His usage rate was 41 seven and his assist percentage was an all-time record. It was like 57.2 To put that in perspective the next guy in the list was 2017 hard and at 84.7 2018 rest was 83.9. 09 Chris Paul 82 2016 Russ 81.2 2018 hard and 81.2 and then 80 and down as a little more realistic. I love the fact that he almost got to 100 So if you made the Westbrook a stat Like he literally peaks at the highest person stat with a 99 Yeah The fact that that's 15% higher than anyone who's ever played basketball as fucking bockers to me Yeah, and I think I texted you back. This is ball hog over replacement or something It's just like this is the most heliocentric shot-out set part now for for that term It's one when when when the hero ball got slightly more Educated it became heliocentric basketball and that Westbrook season is the epitome of that Spam this over and over and over again and to your point. What I want to play with him heard you say this before I feel like I'm a prop. I feel like I'm standing around Oh, but every once in a while here comes a brilliant pass the corner and you better make the three because that's the only touch You're getting for the next 13 minutes and that's the problem like Joker was an 80.7 this last season um But was doing too much and by the way that team did it make Did it make round three of the playoffs like that's right when you play this way tray young was an 80.1 in 2022 When you're that reliant on one guy, there's just no success for it. If you're trying to actually win four straight playoff rounds and just over it does not work. The Brunson Westbrook comparison is really interesting to me, just because of contemporary sort of recency bias with Brunson, but like his usage in the playoffs bill was 32 or 33. I forgot. And it felt like he was, he was doing everything for the next, down the stretch and all of the important games for us to be a full 10 points above that for an entire season. It is diabolical work. Yeah. If you go to among Brunson's basketball reference right now, he was in the playoffs, 32.6% and his six percentage was 27.7% so it was a good basketball team and OGN and OB won a game for them and when it mattered and you know, towns was great and bridges and heart were a part of it. To your point, I think it's like it's always going to be this beautiful sport where the guys come together and become something greater than the some of the individual parts and when you're playing that heliocentric style, it feels like that cohesion never really materializes. Yeah. Shay, what was Shay? Shay is probably the closest to getting away with this, but even he was 32% usage, 35.8 assists in the playoffs in the year they won the title was 32.9 and 30.6. So I think that's, it's around there that seems like the right area. You go back and look at bird and magic in the 80s and their usage rate is like 24. Right. You know, it just was inconceivable. Somebody would have the ball that much and it's one of the things. That's crazy. We've overreacted it. Like what happens in baseball with these walks and walks and home runs and no other outcome. What's the one and one is the next question? Yeah. And this is where I come back to pro Westbrook, like again, this is an absurd business where we watch other men play basketball and he was my favorite player to just watch. It wasn't my, my favorite player analytically, by the means, yeah, he's just like if you were, if you were at a game for two hours with your friends, like this is one of the five guys on earth that you'd want to watch do this thing. And he like, you brought it up a few times, man, this guy was on the floor. He was in the crowd. He was attacking the station before the game. Yeah. Ultimately, his legacy is part just entertainer and in a league where you don't always get that with some of the other star players. So I think he's one of one and I'll always remember that, like just the entertaining aspect of watching Westbrook play hoops. Yeah. And seeing him in person the way he carried himself, which was like, Iverson carried himself the way KG. There's only a couple guys that just, you're like, man, the game hasn't even started yet. That guy's fucking crazy. That looks like he's like about to go to war and it would be like game 52 against a 20 and 30 clipper team. Some things I wrote about Westbrook. He's basically Jim Brown, 50 years later with basketball shorts on. There was a column where I wrote, I just compared him to Teen Wolf and a poison movie character who uses so much of her brain that she becomes a robot and turns invisible. That was another column. I wrote the homicidally competitive legacy baton since 1990 MJ Iverson, Garnett, Kobe, then Westbrook. Nobody else in the NBA gives even half as much of a shit as Rustas, like you actually fear for his safety. I called him a tirelessly energetic freak maniac lunatic who just shrugged 120 ounces of coffee. And then I wrote, only Westbrook makes you feel like you're watching a WWE star sprint into a crowded real rumble ring and immediately start clearing it out. He needs his own entrance music. These are just this is the rest of Westbrook legacy is a fucking lunatic and it was great. I love it. Perfect. I have no notes on that one. That's perfectly said. An intentional comedy wrinkle was the way he dealt with the media was my answer for this. Basically didn't like any media members would look through them and pass them. If you've ever been on the other end of Russell Westbrook noticing you realizing who you were and then just kind of looking through your forehead, it's quite an experience. And yet it was like it just had no time for it. And yet all the people that played for him except for a select few were all like this guy's the greatest guy in the planet. I fucking love Russell Westbrook. Like you can see when he retired, it was just an awesome teammate had no time for anybody else. But his media interactions, I think were the funniest thing about him. Oh, I had to interview him once for a grant in 2014, 15 near the end and man, he did not want to be around me. And it was no time for me to know he was and I respected him for it, but I there I was in Oklahoma. And it was tough. The other unintentional comedy thing I think that bears mentioning is I'm not sure this is not my department, maybe Wesley Morris, who probably did a think piece on this exact thing for us back in the day. Some of the fashion stuff before a game. I feel like he was the Bill Russell of bringing it to another era, the walk into the arena. And some of that shit looked as good as anything I've ever seen in my life. But then again, nobody cares about my taste Bill Simmons. But some of them, I'm not sure we're going to age very well. And dare I say might be funny for other people to look at. Oh, he was always pushed in the envelope and even like, what the, what is he wearing? But half the time it was cool, half the time was just, you know, what was going on, but yeah. And he could pull that shit off more than like Kyle Kuzma who tried it. He had Swagger walking through those tunnels in ways that like everybody has to respect. He was one of the coolest men in America there in this 2010s in like respect for trying. But man, that's tough to pull off some of those looks. He had that Swagger in college. I was really into that draft. And Westbrook was my sleeper in that whole draft. I don't say that as like, Oh, I had Westbrook and, but he really was like, I was like, I love this guy. I don't know what he is, but he's going to be an awesome pro. But I thought he was going to be like the 17th pick in the draft. Like I thought it was going to be one of those post lottery. Yes. Oh my God. You get this guy, like he's going to be like a crock, like Tony Allen on defense, but like a great, I never saw what was going to happen. And then during the course of basically March madness through the draft, he started going up and he kept going up and he got all the way to fourth and I was like, I love this guy. I don't think he should go fourth, but part of it was the Swagger and the athleticism because he had it that one year UCLA. And again, drafted by one of the smartest draft personnel guys, the league scene in a long time in San Presti. But I would say, Kevin Love always struck me with this story, like when they were both at UCLA, I think Kevin Love was a freshman and Russ was a sophomore. And Kevin was this hot shit like all American and Russell was like a local, yeah, barely made UCLA because Jordan Farmer left for the 2006 draft, so they had a slot. And when he got to the first practice, Kevin Love was like, oh my God, I'm not even the best player on this team. And that time was like this unknown kid from LA, that's three star recruit. And Kevin was just like, holy shit, this guy is great. And then yeah, year later, he's the number four pick in the draft. I think Kevin Love was number one, was that the same draft? Yeah, it was OJ Mayo, Kevin Love. I think Kevin Love made it down fifth. Oh, did he go third? Or third, it was, yeah, it was one that, was that, was that Kevin Love in that draft? He was. He just looked like Dick in the box era guy at that time, Kevin Love, the chin strap. That's all I remember. Kevin Love was another one. Now he was, I don't know how many more pounds than it ended up being as a pro. Yeah, Kevin Love was fifth, OJ Mayo, third, Michael Beasley, second. I mean, Miami passed on Russell Westbrook and Kevin Love in that draft, but the Kevin Love always had the rebounding where you just like that guy is a guaranteed, awesome rebound or in the pros. I don't care what else happens. And then Westbrook had the athleticism and you're like, worst case scenario. That guy's going to be one of the best athletes in every gaming place. All right. We're wrapping up with defining playoff moment. We mentioned the 2012 game four finals. To me, in a good way, it's the 2014 Clippers, OKC game five, the Chris Paul collapse series tied it to. It's in OKC. OKC's down one on one 88 with four minutes left. I would highly encourage people to go and watch this on YouTube again. They're down seven with 49 seconds left, call time out. Katie hits a crazy three over a big baby. Clippers come down. For some reason, Jamal Crawford's like, I got this. And Mrs. A shot, OKC gets it long passed down to Durant. Now it's a two point game. And by the way, that was Westbrook with the rebound football past the Durant, two point game, Chris Paul gets the ball, bringing in and Westbrook goes in to do whatever. And Westbrook, Chris Paul's trying to get the foul, but like, I don't say the biggest fuck up of his career. And Russ ends up stealing the ball, goes out of bounds, but it's OKC ball. And then Chris Paul fouls Russ on the three. He makes all three free throws. And then Chris Paul misses to lose the game. And really clutch free throws, clutch steel, clutch pass rebound. But if you just watch that game, you're like, all right, there's a game when, and then he flipped it. And that was kind of the Clippers never got that close again. Did not come up with Doc's Hall of Fame speech. I don't think, I think if anyone brought that game up to him, he would have turned into J.J. Raddictu, yeah, I think that's, it's interesting. When I think of Russell, he's defined by this, this incredible explosive frenetic energy. Yeah. And when he was able to channel it, Bill, in moments like that, it was the coolest thing in the NBA for a number of years, but when he was unable to control it, even in the form of his jump shot, the power he would explode off the ground with, I think, was too much to have the touch that Kevin Durant had or Stephen Curry had, he was just too explosive. And I think that's what cost him a lot of times was his inability to control his own explosiveness, whether it's mental explosiveness or physical. But in that moment, I thought he put it all together as a defender and just made the play of the game. It was like a guy who only drove one way in the highway. Yeah. That was it. He was great if you want to go 88, 88 to 100 miles an hour and try to get to one place to another. But then if you actually had to do a little more driving at Gallo Dicey, overrated underrated, properly rated, how's he rated, Bill? You're the guy here. How is he rated? Honestly, this is the toughest one I think you could have in one of the reasons I wanted to this podcast. I think he's a whiff overrated, but I also think he might be a little underrated too because we have so many years now of the different stage of his career, Westbrook, that kind of people forget now, you know, I hate to do the hashtag people forget, but people do forget. You know, it's like like NBA TV was running game four of the 2008 finals when the Celtics came back against the Lakers. And Paul Pierce is just guarding Kobe that whole game. Paul Pierce could guard LeBron and Kobe and was in big games against those dudes in big series and beat those guys, right? Yeah. And then years later, he has that quote where he's like, I was better, you know, I was right there with Dwayne Wade and people like, what? That's crazy. It's like, all right, it's like, you know, I think Wade had a better career. I'm hiring the pyramid, but it's not insane to think Paul Pierce, all the stuff he could do and the way he got better in big games and all the different types of guys he could guard and how malleable he was with teammates. Like, Paul Pierce was really good, but people just kind of forgot. And I wonder if that's happened in Westbrook a little bit. I was watching that too. I mean, speak to August. There's nothing on that. Right. That come back. And I watch Paul like attack the teeth of the defense on one side and then guard Kobe on the other side and well deserve finals MVP in 2008 for the truth there. Look, as the analytics guy, I think the classic response here is he's overrated. But I asked you where he's rated. I know we'll get to your pyramid ranking. But yeah, you know, there are two Russell Westbrook's. There is the moment he gets traded from the thunder leaves the thunder. The nine years before that, he is a perennial all started putting up crazy stats. They're always making deep runs in the playoffs. He won an MVP and two scoring championships and assist championship. If we're talking about that portion of this man's career, you know, maybe he's underrated because of what followed in the 2020s, he becomes this journey, man, like it never works in Houston or really Washington, obviously, Denver, Sacramento, Lakers, Clippers. There is that. And I think that is the exact right answer. But the Lakers thing really hurt him too with not being able to fit in an all with A.D. on the brine, which I think Lebron shared some culpability in, but it was just such a bad fit. Yes. That it instead of the 90 10 thing, it felt like 50s and LA kid and he needed that to work. And if it had worked, it would have been the perfect way. And that's the last thing I had on him. Jason kid was Russell Westbrook at one point and sort of aged gracefully into this, okay, I'm Dirk's second banana here or even third banana in some cases and started to be able to shoot and change this game and if I would like a title, by the way, and he became, he was probably the second best guy in that mass team. Yeah. So if J.K. were the Westbrook in LA, I think he would have found a way to be like, all right, let me just figure out how to contribute here and get out of it and there's a fair criticism of the second half of this career who is again, too defiant to sort of slide into that tertiary or later role stage in his career. It's a great point. J.K. is the perfect example. Also, J.K. was good enough to lead a team to the finals, right? Yeah. I do not quite get over. And you think like, all right, who is the second best teammate? It wasn't anybody better or worse than, you know, some of Russ's best stuff. And so anyway, I have, and I have Kade Webb, I have a ahead of Westbrook. I have Westbrook in the pyramid, I have 58. So top 60, I have him just ahead of some like the busher and Hal Greer and Cunningham and Elvin Hayes, like these guys who were really good. I couldn't put him ahead of Nate Thurmond. Now everybody's listening to this like, what the fuck's going on? Nate Thurmond? We're part of the park. I said this. Hey, I'm just hoping you don't ask me any Nate Thurmond question. I have a lot of hot Nate Thurmond's like the Lost Great Center of the 60s and 70s. Just got completely boned over on the all NBAs because he's going against Will and Russell and Kareem and Willis Reade. It's like a disaster. But was really good. Klaid Drexar, I have slightly ahead of him, West Unsold, Gary Payton, Paul Pierce and Patrick Ewing, who these are our level two for me. That's like those are the last guys at level two. And I think Russ is right in that area and probably behind the last few I mentioned, but around 58. Some of the guards you mentioned, I could have quibbles with Payton and who was the other guard in that list? Klaid Drexar. Drexar, yeah. I think I bet there's a bunch of people in OKC like, now I'll be like, what the hell are you talking about, dude? Like, this is an MVP. Klaid Drexar. Klaid Drexar. Yeah. Klaid Drexar. Klaid Drexar. Yeah. Klaid Drexar. Klaid Drexar. And the second he goes to the Rockets, they win the title is second best guy. I don't know if Russ, if Russ goes to the team 95 Rockets, I don't know if, and then he was the best player in two finals runners-ups where he was the best guy. Well, stream team. And like at Houston, like, he was a incredible college player too. And I don't know if that matters in the, in the pyramid or not. For me, it's like the playoff, the playoff ceiling has to factor in with this. Yeah. We got to play with one of the best 20 to 25 guys ever in Durant. And we was only able to win one finals game with him, but he basically won the lottery at Durant. If you're picking any forward of the LeBron to play with for the last 20 years, you're probably picking Durant. So I think, you know, it's hard. We've had 80 years of players. Like, you're one of the 60 best players ever. That's a real achievement, you know, and, but I do think the playoff successes were false apart a little. Anyway, Kurt Goldsbury, that was wonderful. Do you have anything else before we go? I know it's dead for NBA. Well, I'm working on this new idea I need to run a pa you. I think the age of player empowerment is dead. I think we are now referencing your previous podcast in the age of owner empowerment. And I wanted to test this idea out with you, starting with players like Victor Wemanyama taking less money. That is crazy. LeBron James, I think his decision in 2010 sort of starts player empowerment for, for some cases, and then going to Philly for four million. I think the second apron itself is proof that the owners really won this latest negotiation. The media deals, expansion, NBA Europe. But this is my, my, my, my take on working on this piece for the ringer. I wanted to get you in on it. Do you think it's fair to classify 2026 as the age of owner empowerment in the NBA? Are you saying owners have more power or they become more of a wild card? I think I think owners have the same power they've had. I think the difference is the intentions of an owner feels like it's starting to shift. Well I think that's part of it. I feel like the teams are financial instruments now more than ever before. I think there were these heirloom investments, these community heirlooms that dudes would, you know, you would, if you were a rich guy and you owned a basketball team 20 years ago, you would get made fun of. There's these great Mark Cuban quotes, where he's like, I bought the maps in the late 90s at $200 some million, $15 years later, nobody would buy the New Orleans team for that same price. The valuations had stayed the same. And now we're at 12 and a half billion. And I think more and more of these people, so I, to answer your question, I think the intent of the owners has changed. This, I think the type of human being that's owning this seems has changed. And I think it's trickling all the way into the league. And that's sort of what I'm getting at with this concept. Yeah, it's weird because it's not like owners, wherever, you know, kind of the ideal, you don't want the ideal person for a basketball franchise, they would be hit or miss, right? You'd have some people that were jackasses or they got left the team. There are a couple other people like that really cared or rich people that felt like Mickey Arizona Miami is a good example, right? That guy's rich, but also really loves owning the Miami heat and wants to be part of it. Peter Holt was like this for, for the Spurs, like there's, we've had some good ones. Dr. Bus was like that. And I don't think that air is over, even like the guy who bought the Celtics Chisholm. Really, it's grew up with the team, loves the team. He also, I think, made a pretty good purchase because you could argue for whatever way they got. That looks great. So there's still a couple of people coming in that seem like they have good intentions. I don't, the part that's weird to me is if you're going to spend this much money on teams, you're going to want to make money back. You're not, you know, you're going to have to, you've spent so much, you can't that also lose money in the team, right? So the CBA is in their favor now. But ultimately, they're just going to, like the expansion is a good example. They're all going to go for it because it's an extra 500 million team, NBA Europe, WMBA expansion. Anyway, they can carve the cat to have more, carve the cat. What does it carve the cat? I don't know. Session. Like the obsession lady. Anyway, they can carve the pie for more money, grow the pie, grow whatever you want to say it. It feels like they are now everything is on the table. How do we make more money that's all we care about? And that's, I think you're right. So I don't know if that's empowerment. It's more like there's a, there's a word out with the word is it's, it could, the word I want to use is corrosive. Yeah. It's a culture shift in sort of the identity of the league. And I think it's an allegory to what's happening in America to some extent, but we don't need to get into that as it relates to the economics of the NBA. I think it's a fascinating moment. And you know, it explains a lot of the bigger trends, like Brunson taking last Carl Nathany Towns, the second apron, like it trickles all the way down into the things that we do really care about as NBA fans. So I think it's interesting whether you're talking about the Portland Trailblazers or the LA Lakers. It seems like we're talking about owners a lot more than I would like to, um, and yeah, the Portland basketball. The Portland one was concerning because he bought the team, but clearly, just because he wanted to grab a team now, we've had this in the past, but it was always because it was a good deal. Like pair about the Grizzlies because it was like, wow, that's all you're asking a rod and Lori bought the T wolves because Lentara was willing to sell it to them for 1.5 billion. And we're smart enough to figure out how to structure it. But now we're getting into like, what are the bulls worth? Apparently, there's this guy who bought a piece of the bulls who has, he's the one that if they sell the bulls, and he has very similar to Mark Walther with the Lakers. If the bulls get sold, he's got first dibs on it, but you can argue the bulls are a $10 billion to our team now. And that's probably the next one people will be circling. Yeah. And when you have billions of dollars at stake, like even the guy you're the Celtics guys, like, oh, I just bought this for six. Like I could sell this for 10 tomorrow. Like this is, that's a crazy delta. And the part that I don't even really fully understand because this is not my world, but the tax advantages you get makes all of them want to continue to park their money in teams because you can just write off all these losses and do all this chicaneery with the numbers to make it, to make it worth it and it helps out your whole portfolio. And that's how they look at it now. I guess I'll end with this. I liked when NBA discourse was about arguing about Russell Westbrook as opposed to talking about the Williams of the billionaire class. Yeah. Well, this Lakers thinks that's like even since I did the stuff about on my podcast the other day, we've found so much more like it really feels like this is now veering toward could this be in the made-off area? Could this be in the, you know, Ivan Boschie here is something like genuinely a legal happening. Was it happening this whole time? And I don't really understand that world, that Katie Baker wrote a great piece about it. There's been some good coverage on it. But if it turns out that this guy, Mark Walter was really playing a show game basically. Yeah, taking your life insurance. What does that could mean for the Dodgers? Yeah. But basically stealing from people's grandparents to pay for sports teams anyway. Kind of sobering way to end a really good, really good podcast segment. Kirk Woldsbury. Thanks for having me on, Bill. We should mention where there's a big Austin extravaganza that I'm not going to be able to go to. But what is that in October? October 23rd. UT Sports Summit. Yeah. Yeah. A bunch of good stuff. Yeah. Spurs you're playing the Rockets Katie back on campus. Then we have Ole Miss playing UT, Manning Fest. And then we have F1. So we're going to get Brian Curtis and Van Lathen out here at least and maybe you but you're going to be. Van Lathen goes available. Yeah, I can't. We'll send some good ringer people. Good to see you, Kirk Woldsbury. I hope you're enjoying this. Thank you. Take a break and come back with Van and Chris. All right. We did rewatchables today and we thought we'd do 15 minutes on sports stuff because Van Lathen and Chris Ryan is here. Van, you want to talk college football? Let's do it. You were one of the hosts of the ringer tailgate, the best show on the ringer? One of the best shows ever. Ever? Yeah. I'm locked in on UCLA. I have the over on six and a half wins and seven half wins. Okay. I'm all in. My guy Chesney is there. What are the big story lines though? Give us the top three, casual college football fans, which we care about. Casual college football fans, you know, they're not a lot of huge story lines really going into the season. Obviously. Can I guess? Get. Get some of the tops. You want to guess? Well, is the number one storyline, all the macro changes happening to the administration of the sport, NIL, who's in trouble for what? Whether they'll break off and start super weird and suppressing, but that's the number one story line. To me, you have, inside of the college football, some story lines are Lincoln Riley at USC. This be approved year for him, whether or not you think that it is or not, obviously Lane Kippen at LSU. I would say USC versus UCLA potentially being revived. That's just some like, that sounds like a fun storyline storyline for you. Yeah. No one really. And that's one of, to me, well, naturally nobody cares, naturally nobody cares. But most of the story lines in college football have had to do with like the Brendan Sores to be situation and conversation about gambling and college football, the congressional involvement in college football, the college sports act, Nick Sabin and some of the things that he's been saying about the actual future of how the sports organized. Yeah. We've been talking about that for years. College football is always going to be a complete fucking mess. Yeah. Who are the best quarterbacks? The best quarterbacks are archmaning, maybe. So I would say archmaning being really good and potentially winning a national championship would be the number one story, right? To that chambliss. Yeah. Saying at Ohio State, Dante and Oregon, Dante Moore at Oregon, these are the days. These guys all stuck around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then she kicked out. I mean, to be real with you. The NILs completely changed like the need for a player to leave before they're ready to go. Now you can stay until maybe you're overcooked a little bit and get as much money out of the NIL and then go try it in the NFL. So that would happen to Dante Moore, right? In the old days, he just sort of come out. He wouldn't have been ready. He would have been on the jets. Yeah. And he just sort of got in the shit kicked out of him. Do you think that Indiana is like perfectly designed to be the closest thing you can have to a dynasty in this era or do you think that we're in a parody period and it's going to be a different champ every year? I think we'll see this year. They have Hoover coming in from TCU who's an excellent quarterback. And so if they can make another run, I think people will begin to believe in the sustainability of the Indiana model. Now, I should say that even the year before they went crazy and legitimately we were one of the most dominant teams in college football. They were a great team that went very, very far, but people still kind of didn't believe until they saw them like Python, Alabama, and just legitimately squeezed the life out of some of these other teams. But after they've lost a little bit of something and everybody now is going to be giving them their best shot. I think this year is kind of the year where we'll see the long-lasting dominance if it exists with Indiana. You know who else said last? Oh, Jesus. I'm just looking over Indiana. Oh, I sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're going to be a really good team, but I tell you what, any national media person that still doesn't believe and talk shit on them and what they're doing. You do it at your own peril because they just been kicking blue bloods as spilling blue blood all over college football for about two years now. Good coach. Excellent. Excellent. Good program. Good chemistry and camaraderie. Yeah. The Purdue Athletic Director. Who's did the new bear track trying to talk shit? I'm Fandoah. How state is the favorite? But Notre Dame is the number two favorite. Oh. And then CR's Ducks are third. CR's Ducks. Got some some Oregon merch while I was up in Oregon this week. You love them. I like Dan landing. I feel like he and I could hang out, you know, I could treat Zins. Yeah. I just really like, I like everything about Oregon, like the merch, the colors, the page and tree, the way they play. I think the thing about Dan landing is this got one, the big one. Everybody knows he's a good coach. Yeah. But do people know yet that he is a great coach? And he's like hat that team in position and really I actually even changed the mental makeup. Like they, you had Chip Kelly out there. He was playing a style of ball at Oregon that was quick and nasty and you couldn't really prepare for it. Landing has instituted something different with an edge and they play super physical and all that stuff. But he's still got to win some big games. He won. He lost his OC and his DC. Right. So he's got to win some big guys. I was wondering what happens with coaches when they have it for a second and then they just lose it. - Chip Kelly had it for like three, four years, right? - No, he had it for a long time. - No, but I'm saying, like when he was the hottest commodity for an NFL team to hire and it was like, oh, this guy, he's going to be like offensive bell chance beginning at now. He's like, he just got fired as the Raiders offensive coordinator 10 games into the season. Great. How do you just lose the edge with that? Well, I mean, the question is, does that scheme work in the NFL? Where's that what it is? It was all scheme and once the once defenses figured it out. And then it happened a little bit with buddy Ryan, right? This buddy Ryan had this groundbreaking defense and then at some point in the mid 90s, it shifted. And then he was in groundbreaking anywhere. It's almost like a director. He had one move for a couple. Yeah, it's like a director and have three good movies and then can't sustain it. I hate it, but it's what Belichick was good at was like reinventing. Adapting and reinventing. Yeah. And it's like to watch the Randy Moss Patriots versus the Patriots, the first one, the Super Bowl. You're like, this is a completely different team. This is completely different like philosophy that they're executing out there. That was my favorite Belichick quality. Was that he was amorphous to whatever his talent was. He's like, oh, we're good at this. I'll do it this way this year, which I don't think a lot of coaches like, here's my scheme. I got to fit my guys into mind. This is how we do stuff. And those are the guys that are always getting trouble. Yeah, I mean, well, there's some college. There's different aspects of the game, right? There's like this disparity in talent that exists not just from conference to conference, but like even within a team. Yeah, you can have a team with an incredible blue chip ratio, but still you got to feel some of those places with guys that weren't like exactly four or five, especially now, right? And so for him to go as fast as he was going to take advantage of some of the stuff that he was doing schematically, that's just probably easier to do in the past 12 than it is in the NFC East. Well, how many coaches would you say like, oh, that guy's good. We're just like blind. Everybody would agree with it. They're like the score or not. We're like, you said Dan Lanning. I think most people would be like, yeah, that guy's good. Yeah, Kirby's good. Kirby's good in the end coach. Oh, that guy's good. It's made Kiffin's at that point. Now, right? Kiffin is definitely a guy who right away think about somebody and a different thing that like he legitimately raises the floor of whatever it is that you have a floor razor, a true floor razor. When Kiffin's going to do that, if you Lane Kiffin runs the type of offense and the type of program to where if you start off and you're a five win team, you're going to every year be now a nine win team. The question with Lane Kiffin still is, can you be a 14 or 15 win team? Because like as deep of a run as Ole Miss May last year, I don't know the question with Lane is the same as Dan Lanning. Like Lane Kiffin still has yet to take a team and get them over the hump to a national championship. And if he wants to be mentioned in the same vein as the rest of these guys, he's got to find a place to do that. And if he doesn't do it at LSU, I think his national reputation will be a lot. He's going to be a lot. Oh, see it. Like Miami Dolphin is going to be tough. Yeah. That's like we have NBA players like that, right? You can take it around two. Yeah. You can sniff around three. Want to say something after that? No. Okay, I thought you're not throwing daggers here. It's August or you have guys that can get you to the finals as the number one guy. They can get you to the finals as the number one guy. And be a not that many guys. I mean, you can get to the conference finals, but I think like there's Donovan Mitchell can get you to around two or around three. Yeah. But it hasn't been unable to get people to around four. Harden, unable. But just think about it like this, like Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler can get you to the NBA finals. That's why he's so tough to rank. That's why it's difficult. Jimmy Butler can get you to the NBA final. I have them 100th. Do you? My pyramid, my revised pyramid that I've spent the whole summer working on for really no reason. Because my kids are all the. All time. I have them 100th because of the two finals. I really value those that he got. He got you to the sky on two teams that made to the finals, right? It's the hardest tentative. And they were those teams when they got there, they actually kind of made you believe like can they pull this off? There's no yeah. And he also drag and slayered some teams. Yeah, he beat some teams. He took down his beat. Yannis when Yannis was good. And you know, he took down a really good Celtics team that won the title the next year. Yeah, right. So there are coaches that are like that. Yeah. That that perennially can get you there really less than 10 of like elite coaches and college football right now. Yeah, that everybody agrees that guys good. Well, is it eight? There's a lot of guys that mark as Freeman at at Notre Dame. There's another one. There's Steve Sarkisian at Texas. Ohio State guys another Ryan Day. There's Ryan Day at Ohio. All of everybody knows that these guys are bad asses, but they have even amongst those guys. There's still people that are waiting. There's some people that have had better days like sort of like a dabble of Sweeney who at one point was at the top of the elite coaches like a Nick Saban Slayer. Yeah, right. And there are some guys that are past that. Some guys like Freeman who are still marching towards having that type of reputation, but you know that they're great coaches. And then some guys like Kirby who are like retooling. But I think the I think but above all of them are about five dudes that if you have them year in year out your competing four national champions. I think the NFL is six. What's here? I think McDonald is in there now for what Seattle did. Seattle literally could have won every game last year. And I think whatever he was doing, he seemed to know he has to be in the discussion. John Vey. I think Vey. I think Sean Payton. I think Shanahan. Ben Johnson, I think is there now. Would you say Cereoni? I wouldn't. I would have I would have rables. It's so interesting. I would have rables as the sixth one because he's had success on two teams with pretty flawed teams. Two families. He's a very versatile coach. He gets to see it in his own house on the road and at home. Some might say he's better on the road. If there's an NFL meetings, maybe he'll know a good B&B two hours away. Or they're like a hot springs around here. You guys have been thinking about going up with some friends like a high hedge, though. You know, it's interesting, but that list. I don't know of Jim Harbaugh. Neither Harbaugh is on my list for the top six. Jim Harbaugh, I think we want to be in the list. Did you say any of the results? I think Andy's off. I think he's too old now. I thought that chief season last year was such a mess. I don't know how. That's a question just about Cereoni. We've talked about this before. So I'm fascinated with why he's so poorly regarded with the amount of success that the Eagles have had because I think they have so much talent. I think that's almost like people think they wouldn't despite him. And G.M. has the mystique that is usually reserved for the coach. So like everybody is sort of like how he sees and trusts how he how he knows what he's doing and like watch what how he did here. And it's just all of the credit winds up going to him. It goes to Fangio and it's all dependent on like who's the O.C.? It's Kellen more than we're great. If it's Kevin Petula, we're bad. Everybody's losing their mind about Sean Manion right now. But it's not unlike the way people look at Jalen Hertz where it's like, well, this guy is one of Super Bowl, been to a Super Bowl. Outside of that, they're always with the exception of that real detonation season consistently very good. But gets no like kind of like hot talk show respect kind of. Not only would you say what do you say that the key thing is if you wouldn't be shocked if the guy got fired up for the season, I don't think you can be in the top six. Right. But like you're you've got Ben Johnson and it's like Ben Johnson anything. I know. But I just think he's I just think he's going to be there for a while. I feel the best about him. What is the Green Bay coach again? I forget the thing for the floor. The floor. The floor. I think he's a better coach than Ben Johnson. I think he's I think he's I don't know. I thought the floor is going to get fired up for the playoffs. I understand that. But like having been Johnson on the list other than coach that's won a Super Bowl and played for another one. By the way, say something about the Jalen Hurts thing is that Jalen Hurts not only got there, but played phenomenally in no Super Bowl games. He really played good. And I think that the fact that that team has been able to maximize not all the time, not all the time. He's not singing it around all the time, like making no look throws and all of that stuff. But they've been able to maximize their personnel and play in a way that's distinct and unique to who they have shows that they're really well coached. I just thought what Ben Johnson did last year was outrageous. I mean, that team, it's quarterback. He had to almost teach him on the fly how to be a consistent kind of guy who could actually take some structure. He had a bunch of young players. He had to take over a whole new organism. When you can take over a franchise that's just been run like shit. And it's been very able to do it in nine months. Just fix it. I think that's like the hardest thing to do. Cereani was inheriting a really good infrastructure, a great front office, and a ton of talent. Well, I mean, he was inheriting a Super Bowl winning team that had decayed, came in, and revitalized it. But I think because he was like a little bit more of a younger pressure voice that was about like more being a CEO or as Doug Peterson, I think had a little bit more control. Although Nick's system, this has been always the issue is Nick has an offensive system that I think he likes to implement and OCs that come in, either fully adopt it or like add their wrinkles to it. And this has been the time. I think I think conditional on Nick's keeping his job. They were like, you have to basically give man in the keys. Well, you're an Eagles fan. Do you think he's a good coach? Like I would fight for Vrayble for the death unless we were talking about. I would not fight for Nick Cereani to the death. Yeah, no, and we had this conversation at core week. Once I'm core week, we love to hang out and have conversations. And I'm, I do week. I love core week fan loves core - I love it. - They loves it multiple ringer people. Just together. - I love a room full of ringer people. - Can I run calls, but in real life? - Yeah. - To talk to stuff about. I don't understand the serianity thing. I understand being frustrated with the way the team and particularly Jaila Hers is played at times, especially in this era of so much being on a quarterback and all that that stuff. But he's been so successful and they've been perennially in contention. I just kind of don't get it. Even the Jim Harbaugh thing that you could bring up. So if you look at Jim Harbaugh, the success that he's had as a coach in the last 20 years. - San Francisco Michigan Chargers. - Yeah, you could argue that they're very few peers there. He's won a national championship at Michigan. He's had, forget about what he did at Stanford as well to have Stanford as an elite upper echelon team. Then he goes to the 49ers, has them in the Super Bowl. They do not win. But he continues to have success right away. Not only are you a good team with Jim Harbaugh, you have the chance to be a great team. - You're 10 win credibility basically. - Absolutely. - I like this exercise. Can I put you on the spot and ask you if the NBA coaches would be? - Yeah, let me get my standings. - Because I think in a lot of these sports, I'll vamp while you look. - Okay, I'm ready. - You're seeing a rise of the technocratic coach who's like, I'm very good at one specific thing or I'm very good at vibes guy. But the idea of a coach being bigger than the team, I think is going away in a lot of different sports. - I agree. It will be hard for it to go away in college football. - Yeah, but even in college football, it's like the guys that get jobs now are like, I know Chesney and these dudes, but it seems like it's like Eric Morrison will Stein. And it's like, do you have a playbook? And if you do, we'll pay the premium and give you the head coaching job just so that we don't have to get a new OC every year. - But I'll say this though, I agree with that. But at some point in college football, just the personality of your program just has to be your head coach. This is the reason why they've been making fun of me on tailgate 'cause of the twinkle. The twinkle that I saw in Chesney's eye. I did not want to agree with Bill about this. I hate agreeing with Bill. - But you were like at the practice. - I was there and I watched the way people responded to him in the building. - Later, man. - I watched the way they talked about UCLA football. Legitimately, while we were there, they were tearing up the practice field, doing new stuff and it'd be difficult not to believe in it. You know, before I, you know, Harbaugh reminds me of Jim Harbaugh. He's like a football coach. He's like the Larry Brown of like football coaches. Like the Larry Brown of it. Now he hasn't gotten over the top in professional football yet. But like if you have Larry Brown, like coaching your team automatically, your team is going to pull it together. - Until they fucking heat him. - Until they see, that's the same shit though. - With this is why, that's the same thing. - This is why basketball is so different. 'Cause like Mike Brown just won with the next. Mike Brown failed on like four other teams, right? So I think there's this cluster of coaches that if you gave them the right team, they could make the final four or maybe even win the title. - Spoiled. - I think it's a bunch of them. I think it's exposed on a different level because no matter what his team is, the team's successful. And they've overachieved in these crazy ways. - He culture. - I also think coaching LeBron and Wade and Bosch, those first couple of years, was like the single hardest thing and he coached it the last 15 years. Where it's like, if this doesn't work out, I'm getting fired. And I don't have buy-in from these guys 'cause they've decided everything in this team. I have to win these guys over. Like you remember, there was a lot of battling. And that first season, even the second season, I just thought the way he navigated that was pretty special. I think Dagnall's really good. But in my mind, - I think Chris Finch is good. - Dagnall is like that kind of like technocrat coach that I'm thinking of where it's like, emerges out of a system. Presti is the man, the wizard. Everything is kind of like, top to bottom. You're here. And I think he's very, very good. I'm just saying like. - He's good. He had a really hard roster to keep everyone happy and he was able to do it, which I think in the NBA is the hardest thing to do. But Missoula, I think, has been an amazing regular season coach and they've blown three play-ups in the last four years where they're huge favorites. - You're up and down on him sometimes. It seems like sometimes you're completely bottom on. - I thought the Philly series last year was one of the worst losses in the last season. - Yeah, I mean, you know that. Like, to be didn't even play that. (laughing) And being didn't even, it was ridiculous. How did they lose to Philly? (laughing) - When you look back at the series, you're like, "How the fuck did we, in real years?" - I think that you guys looked in there, they were just like, "We need Paul George." The Celtics were just like, "We gotta get PG." - It's probably the best forward in the series. - Who are the other coaches? So Missoula. - I mean, that's really it 'cause then everybody else is, I think Steve Kerr's still really good. - Yeah, I think it's his fault. - I think it's his fault, that was Tizel. - Tizeloo and Steve Kerr. - I would say Charles Lee is probably my favorite younger one. - Okay. - I thought that stuff they did last year with the team they had and how weird the team was. - Guys, catch some of 'em. - And maybe nurse. - Really? - I thought he completely outcoached Missoula. He's won a title, right? He's made conference finals and, you know, he might be a little better, but I don't know. There's probably like three or four and then there's like another five or six. But how many guys could have won with the next last year? Right? - Well, I don't know. - You need to be a defensive kind of presence guy. - You also need to have the ability to stand up to towns - You have to ride the store in the Migos. - That's he hated each other for like part of last season. - So he navigated that. So he gets credit for that. But I wouldn't have thought he could have done that a year ago. - At the same time, it also feels like he allowed in a very unique way for that team to take on its own personality and he injected a belief system into the team. - Yeah, then he does that with the Timberwolves too. - Like he injected a belief system into them. - Good one. - 'Cause that's a really hard team to coach. You have like real flaws. - This is something else about Brown to me. It also seemed like to me that the success of the Nix had as much to do with his journey as a basketball coach to where he got to that point in his career where he had had some high profile failures been through some stuff and he understood just how to hold on enough and let go enough and believe and instill belief. - Or would a doc in the Celtics be kind of a con? - The white brown. - Yeah, but even the doc thing was rocky 'cause he was playing. He just didn't wanna play young guys, right? Mike Brown was way more willing to embrace the bench. Doc eventually took the corner turn when he started playing the younger guys in trusting Ronda. It's interesting talking to different people around the league who they respect as great coaches. Like when Atkinson got fired by Brooklyn. And the people around the league were like, that's fucking crazy, this guy's a good coach. And the kind of the litmus test of like, does everybody else think the guy's a good coach and did the owner fuck that up? Then there's other cases where like, booting those or was a good coach until he wasn't, you know? I think that happens sometimes in coach football and pro football too. Sometimes the guys have it for five, six years and then it's just gone. - I'm gonna ask a real casual question. Let's say you're sitting down with somebody that doesn't follow NBA basketball at all. What makes a good coach? 'Cause in college football, I absolutely know what makes a good coach, right? In college football, I absolutely know. You can tell when a guy, like both on the field, what it is that you're doing. But also when a guy has the presence and the institutional integrity to define a program, that's like to me the top thing that makes a college football coach. For the NBA, a game that is so analytics are so important to it. Sometimes, like, I don't even know if - I think it's different like regular season coaching and playoff coaching is definitely different. Just like regular season basketball and playoff basketball. - And what your team's objectives are? How you manage like, maybe my star currently wants to play 55 to 60 games. How do I manage that? I think NFL coaches by far is still the most important. Like if you get one of the six or seven real guys that's your a 10 to 12 win team a year if you have talent, right? Like when we had Bella check, it really didn't matter who is on the team with Bella check and Brady. We're probably going to win like 12 to 14 games. But then as you got older, you could kind of see the team decaying. Special team started going, right? He started missing drafts. There were these things that these kind of red flags. - And then he's just like. - In basketball, you just get fired if it doesn't work out for one year, right? You have like Anthony Edwards is your superstar and you lose in round one. You're just getting fired, right? They're always gonna pick. - Or you can be hot as hell. - You can be like Taylor Jenkins, Red Hot, Memphis is the future. - Taylor Jenkins, great example. - And then fired and gone. - Emay if Houston's a mess this year. He'll get fired. But the lifespan of the NBA coaches are nuts. It's like four years is a long time. Who did they say was the third? Isn't Mizzou like the third longest coach? - It's something crazy like that. - It's part of the coach, right? - Wilhart is good. My question is, how do you motivate these dudes when we get to like these guys are making 70 million a year? - What's the difference between that and making 30-year? Like I mean, like do you think they're-- - You're still making-- - I know understand generational wealth, but like I just mean like, are you saying? It's not like they were underpaying. - I'm saying when you have a team, you have a team that has a star. They can't trade the star. He's making a shit load of money and he's not going anywhere. And if he doesn't get along with this coach, the coach is losing that every time. So this is my thing. think the league is so star-dependent that a lot of this is just, the coaches are tethered to these guys and if these guys have bad disposition, you're just not gonna win a lot. You're not gonna win at the highest level. It's just, it's just going to be tough. If you get a Janus or a Yokech who for whatever reason has all of this talent, but also is addicted to competition and want to be the best, you just end up going further than if you have some of these other guys. Some of these other guys that can be weird, material, destroy a team. A lot of that's just based on how these superstars look at themselves and you can build around it. You can coach, but you can't, some of it, you're handcuffed to it. Also, I don't know, man. I mean, we're starting to see now once a year, a top 15 NBA player get traded in an inexplicable way sometimes. So if you could trade Luca and you can trade Jalen and these guys are all like, I don't want to go into the second apron and I don't want 50% or 60% of my salary cap wrapped up in two guys. Choose one. But I mean, I don't know. Maybe the coach will take on a greater precedence. You know, I look, I'm a Laker fan. I love Luca, right? Love Luca. Love watching Luca play and all that stuff. But if you're coaching Luca, if you're coaching Luca, that must be an interesting spot to be in. Because your team is always going to be just relevant enough for you to get blamed for the fact that he doesn't always play in a way that I mean, Luca is a phenomenal player, but he's going to keep you just relevant enough to be incredibly criticized. But having Luca does not necessarily mean that you are going to win a championship. Yeah, and you also have to build your team around off his strengths and weaknesses. In order to have the type of success, he hasn't had a team that just play with anybody. Just tailored for him. So it's an interesting spot to be in. And as we talk about like superstar players in the league, there are very few guys in the league that if you have this guy that you can put scraps around him and you're going to the finals. Well, that's what I think Hal Burns like that. I think you can build any type of team around him, right? I think Tatum is like that too. These guys who they can kind of be whatever they can fill these different spots. Why why'd you look at it? Tatum's made two finals and we'll see it. Let's see it happen now. He's really good. I think I'm not saying he's actually reacting to haliburton. That's funny. My point is there's guys that are easier to build around than other guys. I think Haliburne is more that guy than Tatum. I think how I think the way how he plays and all of this stuff. I think if you have him, I think Maxi's like that. I mean, I really think like he is so well respected around the league is just an awesome guy. Yeah. And coaches like Doc is like his biggest evangelist. Doc hasn't coached him for three years, but everybody loves Maxi. And you have that. And he's easy to play with. He needs the ball doesn't need the ball. You know, that those are the best guys I think to build around. Sure. Lucas like, okay, we need a we need a rim runner who can protect him on defense. You need a generator, which also need to break our because my point card can't eyeball that. I need like quick grind type guys. But when I hurt my hamstring and I'm gone for three to five weeks, I need to play. I need awesome ribs. Yes. Right. Now, I will say that when firing on like Luca has taken a team to the finals, and like, and like, and allow his issues were kind of like because Luke is great. That's a problem with other. He's a football player. Yeah. Yeah. Like at times you go, this is not only the best guy in the league. Like this guy doesn't seem like he has any offensive weaknesses whatsoever. It feels like then he falls out of the biggest game of the year. And then you watch him with the fuck. I just want man. If like, I just want Luca to have five straight possessions of just missing the shot and just getting back. Just trying to make it a habit. Just miss the shot and get that. I think it by the time you hit 30, you are. If you ever wear that by now, he's like, guess what? That doesn't matter. Yeah. It's like, and Bede's not going to suddenly be an awesome shape this year. He's just he is. We're monitoring it. You working on it? His, his weight's looking pretty good actually. Have you done the, you think you better than me with LeBron, helicopter and men every time? I'm totally, you don't want to live in Philly, LeBron. I'm totally fine with it. I thought Jalen genius move going right to the hood. So in his first conference. Yeah. He wrecks that out. Watch me. He's like, I'm going to be a man. Jalen is. I'm going to be a man of the people. He went to the hood. He cares about people legitimately. Yeah. But he's like, I'm going to buy into the city of Philly and I'm going to go. He did not go to like a Wells Fargo branded friggin, like, because that's who he actually is. I watch. They're going to be good. There's no scenario where they're not good. I think they, I think everyone knows they're going to be good. I think they're going to be better than people even think that they're going to. Yeah. It's, it's injury and age dependent. We'll see. So over under for them is 50, which seems to be injuries might actually help them. I think they're a 55 because I think they can win games when they don't have imbued or LeBron. Yes. They can just have the other three guys and Jalen. Yeah. I think they can win games. You could play like, I don't know, somebody shitty washed in. You can be washed in with those three guys just doing everything and then save the big guns for bigger games. It should be a fun season. Thanks, guys. It annoys you. What? I just before you get the Philly thing, like I like just be honest. It annoys you. I really like Jalen. I don't like that he's going to be a Philly. Philly is our rival. He also think we hit the most. They asked him about whether he was going to have a chip on his shoulder about Boston and he was like, we'll see. That means yes. Yeah. Boy, I tell you what, let me tell you what, because the one thing I give him more credit than you've said this before is you can get, like, kind of scatterbrain performances for him, but you never get one when he feels challenged. When there's a guy on the other side that he feels like I want to prove that I'm better than this guy, he goes crazy. Man oh, man, oh, man, is he going to have prove it games against Jason Tatum himself? I did this on the mailbag with house. Philly has these five teams where every game against the five teams is going to be awesome. Cleveland, Miami, Boston, next. Now, and then one other team in the east, Toronto. Yeah. All teams that have real history with LeBron or Jalen or you know, there's some sort of rivalry, but the fact that Tatum and Brown have not talked since the trade to be like dumb founding. Yeah. Like, I don't expect these guys to be buddies, but they didn't do like a five minute calls or as to why they're not playing together anymore. Oh, it's definitely the answer CR. That's how bad it got. Like, if you, we worked together 15 years, yes, Bill, don't do this because I would be forced to start potting. You don't want me to actually pot. You don't want me to, don't you understand? You haven't put speed up yet. Right? Did you? Spotify had trade CR and CR does the press conference with like Amazon. Yeah. And they're like, CR, if you talk to Billy and Jeff Bezos in Southwest Philly and Rex. He talked to Billy. No, haven't talked to him. Yeah. Like, that's fucking weird. These guys want to title together two years ago. They haven't talked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still waiting for the now they tell us and I don't know if we're ever getting it, but the town podcast. The town podcast. That's the title. Thanks, guys. Thank you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kurt. Thanks to Van and CR. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahau as well. I will see you at least one more time during the week on this feed. And then rewatching was going to be Monday with speed. So enjoy the rest of the day. I'll see you midweek. Most be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and president DC Kentucky or Wyoming game prom call 100 gamble or 1 800 by reset call 888 797777 or visit ccpg.org/chat and Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800 327 5050 for 24 seven sport Massachusetts or call 877 8 hope and why or text hope and why in New York for Louisiana call 877 777 07 867