Rumi and the Pure Heart: Reading the Qur’an Existentially with Dr Soroush | Thinking Islam | Ep.12

This podcast is brought to you by Olmadi Institute, an open platform for critical Muslim scholarship. The Quran, I am not saying that it is not a meant for the reader, but I would say that most of the time is meant for the listener. How does listening to the Quran differ from reading it? It was the voice of God, every human being, every man, and that like a music. Music is not a returner than the music of language should be. Here should be sent to. In this episode of Tending Islam, we begin from what makes the Quran an exceptional book exploring the existential method in approaching the Quran. The vast majority of Muslims currently approach Quran through translation. So in that sense, would it not be available to them the existential approach of Quran? We discuss the relationship between the Quran and its reader and why pure heart is a precondition for understanding the Quran. We have to swallow the book, so to speak, in a sense, to be the Quran in order to speak to your heart. Joining us as Professor Abdul Karim Sarosh, philosopher, theology, and leading voice in Islamic reform has taught. And then the Quran advises you to repent, to remember God. These are not some things that you can do it by your mind. You have to do it with your own existence. This is one of the main teachings of the Sufi that the companion is most important. Welcome again, Dr. Sarosh to Thinking Islam Podcast. Thank you for having me. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you here again. In our previous episode, we explored the dimension of the message and the messenger from the perspective of the Revealer and what's revealed. And in today's episode, we hope to explore this journey of Revelation from the perspective of the reader. And how can a reader come close to Quran according to you? What should be the relationship between Quran and its reader in current times? In the name of God, first of all, thank you for having me again here. And I am so happy and so glad that I am visiting your institute again within a short time. And though I am not in a good health now, but I hope I would be much better in the past, in the future and in shall love. But anyway, one has to take the opportunity in order to talk and to converse about different matters. Especially those parts which are dear to my heart, I mean this business of Revelation, of dreams, of readership, of the Quran, of the essential reading of the Quran and so on and so forth. So yes, your question is a very apt one and to the point. And I hope I can answer it as well as I can. Look, actually, Quran is the product, is the fruit of Revelation. The Revelation, whatever it is and the process of Revelation, whatever it is, anyway, it has resulted in the Quran. So we have got a book now, which is a revealed book, something that has been revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, and now it is with us. Although some people would say that it was a miracle, some people might say that it is a book which is immeetable, things like that. So that does not enter into our discussions. I'm not going to say that the Quran should be read as a miraculous book or as something which is superhuman perhaps. No, it is in the human language and we have to treat it, we have to deal with it like any other book, because it is like any other book written in Arabic. It is like any other book has got, has followed the grammar of Arabic language and has used the words of Arabic language. Therefore, although the origin might be divine, but the product is human, so this is very important. And mind you, the Quran, I am not saying that it is not meant for the reader, but I would say that most of the time is meant for the listener. This Quran comes from Quran, reading, I mean reading to the ears, not reading by eyes. You know, something that you have to listen to it. And when you are listening to it, you will be so impressed by the beauty of the Quran and the language and also the way it comes out and reaches your ears. That you will be impressed by it and you have to submit yourself. And that is why the people, the Boshraqin, I mean the Quran in the time of the Prophet, they did not. And actually they closed their ears in order not to hear it, not to hear it. Otherwise, they would have been, you know, under the affection and there are some sorts of impression, yes. And there is an ayah in the Quran that they said, I mean the Moshraqin to their friends, do not go to Muhammad, do not listen to him, try not to hear his words and his ayat. Because otherwise, they said, "Wa l-Rauffi, I mean do something to mix up things." So this is important that the Quran is originally, you know, addressing the ears of the people and through ears it goes to minds. And so, and that is because the beauty mainly lies in the recitation of the Quran. You know that there are so many of these reciders, I mean, Gharis in Egypt and elsewhere nowadays. And I have heard that there have been some people, some of non-Muslims who became Muslims because they hear it and they appreciate the beauty of the recitation. To the extent that they tried and decided to become Muslims. That was the case in the time of the Prophet Muhammad, because the Arabs at the time, they really appreciate the beauty of the world. Nowadays, maybe because we have no 1400 years away from the time of the Prophet Muhammad. And because we are no Arabs, we cannot appreciate that beauty. But they actually did understand it and they thought and they came to the conclusion that it was a new, actually phenomenon. Okay, I mean, this also has to be born in mind that it is an uneven beauty, an uneven depth. An even depth. You know, you have got the ayat in the Quran which are really very, very deep and needs interpretation upon interpretation. And that has been the business of the Muslims, of the Seron, you know, to go to the ayat and to try to dig into them and to go deeper and deeper and to extract the new meanings. Like, for example, the ayat that say, "No, I am not allowed to enter Allah, I am not allowed to enter Allah." We sent trust, you know, trust to the heavens and what is this trust that God had entrusted to heavens and non-actually accepted it and all were afraid, you know, and scared, because it was a very heavy burden on them. And the only one who accepted it was man. And then it is followed that in the who corners, the human jahul, see, this is not a praise, it is some sort of condemnation, some sort of blame. So this ayat, for example, is one of the deepest, one of the, you know, most sacred, most sacred seas in the Quran. And there are some others like this, of course, like for example, Allah, onuru, some of what Allah, that's one of the, or the ayat, which says that, "You subhul Allahim of the some of what Allah, all what is in the whole world, they are praising God and they are, what is it, adoring Him and so on." Actually, those parts which are very deep, they are the direct experience of the Prophet Muhammad, himself. Like when he says, "Allah onuru, some of God is the light of the whole world." This is what actually he saw and he felt and he experienced, you know, he saw that the whole world is enlightened, enlightened by God. And that's what he said that, "Allah onuru, or when he says, you subhul Allahim of everything is adoring God, everything is praising." This is what he actually experienced it. And he saw and he heared that everything is making a duration and praising and so on. So these are the deepest ones in Iran and in order to be praised. understand them, one has to be closer to the mind and to the soul of Prophet, you know, to, you know, understand and capture, you know, the hidden meaning of these words and these ayats. But there are ayats in the Quran, especially those who are which are legal about the legal things. They are just ordinary ones. And even they are not put in a purely legalistic language. And because of that, most of the time during the, I mean, the power of the history of Islam, especially the focahaha of Shia, they did not pay much attention to those parts of the Quran. And they do not, they do not take care of them because they had enough hadith. And so, they are not very many, or 500, I mean, ayats and the Quran altogether. And they are, they are not put, as I said, in the purely legalistic form. Nevertheless, they belong to Quran. Anyway, we cannot remove them. We cannot eliminate them. They are there and they have got their own function and so on. And then there are parts in the Quran which are historical about the history of prophets and so on and so forth. So all these, some of them are very clear to, to over audience, but I just mentioned it in order to say that when we encounter the Quran and we approach it and we would like to read it, we have to bear in mind that first of all, it was by recitation, that captured the hearts and the mind of the audience. It was not as a written text, you know. Written text means "Mosaf." That was constructed the time of Osman and Minya, there are some segments about the history of the collection of Quran as you know. But that is "Mosaf." But in the time of the prophet, it was Quran, a mere citation. And recitation was the main way he called the main instrument in order to convey the message and to reach out. The ideas were already put in the Quran. This we have to bear in mind and as I said, we have to bear in mind that there are some sort of things which we, some sort of characteristic in the Quran, like any other book. Some of it are very, very high and very deep and parts of it are just ordinary. And we should not insist on the point that all are even and the same in depth and in eloquence. No, that is not the case. I mean, honestly, when we look at it. So this is the assumptions that we have to have before entering the Quran. Now coming to existential reading of the Quran, if you do not have any question, I can continue. Just on the notion of, if it's about meaning making with the Quran, like we are trying to approach Quran to understand it. And how is reading and listening, like how does listening add to the meaning which is not there in the reading? This is the point that I'm going to, I mean coming to now. In existential reading of the Quran, it means that we are not reading it in a legalistic way. We do not want to extract, you know, legalities from the Quran. We do not even read it in a philosophical way. We do not actually extract philosophy of the Quran. Whether there are, I mean, philosophical points in the Quran or not. This is not our approach. And you know, I, you know, my point of departure is this. The Quran says that it is more, is that only a little bit? This is more, what is more, what is the more, what is the admonition, you know, giving you advice and trying to recommend things to you in a very, you know, simple language and very effective language. So this is more in Arabic. So from this point of departure, from this point of view, you will see that how to approach the Quran and how to open your heart to it. And here actually comes this business of hearing. Hearing is much more effective than reading when somebody advises you and in a written form. Okay, so do this and do that. This is good for you. This is not good for you and so on. Okay, fine. But when somebody advises you, you know, and personally and even the tone of the word, of the language, that has got its own, you know, effect in your mind and in your heart. And that's why this has been always said that the Quran should be recited in a, in a scene way. A scene means somehow like somebody who is sorrowful, you know, in a sorrowful way because its effect would become much more, you know, deeper and stronger. So recitation has been always like this. We have so many stories in books who say that people who listen to the Quran and they were, I mean, suddenly, you know, they suddenly changed and they became a different person. Even they made it all by a unique sentence and so on. This is the important thing and as we know that for maybe a century or two, Quran was not among Muslim like a written text. It was all memorized by the people and they were recited in mosques, in streets, in houses and so on and so forth. It was always, you know, the voice of God, you know, everywhere. It was not the words of God in books, you know, enclosed, must have, it was the voice of God everywhere in Manazeling, Manor, everywhere. And that like a music, music, it's not written. And the music of language should be here, should be listened to. And Quran is really musical, it's really musical when it is cited well and in order. And Quran is like poetry actually. And although God did not like or the Prophet Muhammad did not like, Quran to be considered as poetry, but never did it. It has got all elements, all characteristics of poetry. Prophet actually denoted, he was a poet. He was not a poet. And because poet meant somebody who has got contact with Jens and with their demons and so on, that was in the Arabic literature at the time. And because of that prophet said that he was not poet, but he was poet in a sense that he was an artist actually. He was a very artful man in language, in the locals. And because of that Quran, it's so beautiful when he's cited as I said repeatedly. And now as I add, the idea of Moeza comes in. Because Moeza is most effective when you use it and you actually address somebody and not just in a written form. An existential reading of Quran means that you open your heart to the Moeza. Moeza is it a monition, it's very important. Very, very important. First of all, for me in order to advise somebody, I have to choose a proper language. It is not the language of imperative. It is not the language of rudeness. No, no, no, it should be a friendly language. A friendly language to the point in a sense that it has to be relevant to what I would like to tell you and to impress you by. So, in the Quran when he said it, "Moeza, we have to always have in mind that to open our heart and open mind in order to hear something new and in order to be impressed by it and to take it into our heart deeply." And like when you are in front of somebody whom you accept as an advisor, as a counselor, somebody who is benevolent to you and who would like to progress. And because of that, the book of the Quran here comes not as a legal book, not as a philosophical philosophy is no more wasted. Calam is no more wasted. Law is no more wasted. These are dessert. Quite quite quite different, I mean. And they are good even for non-Muslims. somebody before. who even does not believe that the Quran is a revealed book. But you can go into it and to find what are the laws and legals and things about the philosophy. But more is it is different. There, you cannot just search the book in order to see where are the advices in the book. You have to swallow the book, so to speak, in a sense, to be, you know, for the Quran in order to speak to your heart. Very, very important is it. And that's why it says that the Quran says, it needs pure heart, pure heart. Otherwise, I mean, you would not get the message. You would not get the message. And it becomes like a dead thing, like a body that you are dissecting it. That's no way of doing, you know, understanding the Quran. So this is what I say that we have to have this existential reading of the Quran, or existential encounter with the Quran. Maybe it's a better expression of what I mean. Second point here is that, you know, maybe what I'm going to say comes into conflict with what I have said in my book contraction, expansion of knowledge. There, actually, I argued, and I think we did have some discussion about it in the past, that historically speaking, epistemologically speaking, or from the point of view of even sociology of knowledge, it is always the case. Then when you read the book, inevitably, you have got some assumptions about the book and assumptions about the world, about human beings, about language, about many things. Without these assumptions, you cannot approach the book. You cannot understand it. These assumptions, some of them are quite, quite normal, and even hidden to you, yourself. For example, you actually assume that the person, the author of the book, has been a rational person, has used language in a proper way, and so on and so forth. He knew the real meaning of the word. And so without this, you even do not approach the book. You do not try and bother to take it seriously. And you have got some assumptions about the author of course, about the time that the book has been written and so on and so forth. And so these are inevitable. And the second is these assumptions change. They are not permanent. If you are born in 21st century, your assumptions are different from those who were born in 12th century, let us say. And because of that, our understanding of the book and interpretation of the book, whichever book, including the Quran, for example, is fluid, is changing all the time. And suffice it to look at different texts of Tafsi'r. For example, Tafsi'r, Tafsi'r, which are written in the fifth century and the seventh century and 12th century, you will see the difference in understanding and interpreting the Quran. And that is because the Quran has not changed. The mind of the interpreter has changed. And the mind of the interpreter means the assumptions of the interpreter have changed. The mind is not something. Only the collection of ideas. So this is, I think, a fact of history. And so, so logically speaking, this is inevitable every day. Okay, all right. So this is my argument. I mean, very, very briefly in Al Qab-so-Walbassin, it's like an uncontracted religious knowledge. There, I actually say it is like a tide coming down and going up and having eb and flow in according to the eb and flow of human knowledge outside the book, outside the scripture. That was my argument in that book, which was, of course, very controversial and received. Yes, both many belames and praise, but that's not this about. What I'm saying now in existential reading of the Quran seemingly, it is different, perhaps it is contradictory to what I say in the previous book. Here, I say that you have to have no assumptions at all. No pure assumptions. A pure heart, a pure mind, if you can, of course. And then open your heart to the Quran in order for the Quran to tell you what it says, not you tell it what you think or put into its mouth what you understand and what you think it is true. This is another approach. This is the phenomenological, phenomenological approach, or existential approach. You know that in the phenomenology as a branch of philosophy, we have got this business that you have to actually put aside, or as much as you can, of course, all what you have already in mind. And even you do not actually take into account that this thing that you are going to understand is existent or nonexistent. Even the existence of the thing should be put aside or as they call it, is made a poche. Poche has certainly the word German word. Now what I'm saying is that in the case of the Quran, we have to have the same approach. We have to have a phenomenological existential approach. And wholeheartedly, we have to approach it. And in a whole existence actually should be dedicated to it. And not only your mind, not only your mind, because reading the Quran like a philosophical book is impresses your mind only. You become more knowledgeable. You become more knowledgeable, and you try to analyse it conceptually and things, and over, I mean, or maybe legally or something. But no, here you do not have such an assumption, and you do not have such an expectation. I mean, all these expectations aside, assumptions aside, come forth with the Al-Bus-Salim, as Quran says, with a pure heart, with a healthy heart. Salim means pure and means healthy in the same that it has got no disease. So it is not polluted. It is not contaminated by anything else. So just a pure heart with your pure fetra and your whole existence, no assumptions, no expectations. So just try to be like a mirror in front of the book, in front of the-- and here, actually, you better try to listen to it, or somebody recite it to you, rather than just read it like studying a book, you know, no, not just pay attention to it, very, very attentively. And we don't, as I said, any assumptions. This, you might say, that this is impossible. Well, some psychologists, some epistemologists tell us that it is, if you take it into an absolute, meaning it may be impossible. Because we, human beings, we are always full of ideas. And the idea comes to us from every corner, and we cannot help it, you know. Even if we want to remove them, we cannot remove them. And they are more powerful than us or than over will. This is true. But as much as one can, my theory in the book of expansion and contraction, that was a historical one. What I said, that historically speaking, when you look and follow actually the stream of minds of interpreters, you will see they have been always under the influence of the knowledge of their time. This is a sociological judgment about what has been already said. But here I am not actually doing the same job. I am not going about the historical development of interpretation of the Quran. What I'm saying is addressing and advising, you know, the reader, the one who wants really to get something from the Quran, that this book is the book of more as it is not the book of law, it's not the book of philosophy, this is important. So please do not approach it. Like the contemporaries of the Prophet Muhammad himself, they were no philosophers, no people of law and nothing. They were just people of pure mind and pure heart and that was why Quran was most effective and impressive. Nowadays from this point of view perhaps we have to make as similar to those around the Prophet himself and he added it from himself and just wanted to see what's new in what he says, what is there, what is the difference between what's there already and what he has got to say and to teach. This is very important, of course as I said 1400 years after the Prophet, this is very difficult. Nevertheless, we have to try to do it. This is what I'm calling it existential reading and here I address the individual that do it as much as you can and you will see that for example there are points in the Quran like tober repentance, like vikr, I mean to remember a remembrance, like Nassian for getfulness and many other things which are really existential in the sense that when you repent and when the Quran advises you to repent or to remember God, these are not some things that you can do it by your mind, you have to do it with your own existence, you have to be remembering God, not just reciting His name and repeating some words or perhaps circulating some concepts in your mind. No, no, no, this is like when you are sorrowful, sorrowfulness is not something mental. It is existential. Then you are very joyful. It is not a concept in your mind, it is an existential character in the whole. This is the way that you have to approach the Quran, not from the point of view of conceptual things, but existential. In the power of what you said then how it's the existential approach of your whole being, that's the type of a meditative ridicule in the sense where you clean your heart, clean your mind. So before approaching Quran you have to approach at that stage as well. That's right. It's a preparation of that stage. It's preparation. So how would it be accessible to, because as you mentioned that there is a recitation to it, you don't have to impregnate Quran with the meanings. Then there are more as so you have to listen, but the vast majority of Muslims currently approach Quran through translation. So in that sense, would it not be available to them, the existential approach of Quran? We lose many things. We gain something in translation, but on the other hand we lose many things. It is like, you told me that perhaps you wanted to ask me something about the Quran. This is exactly what happens in the case of Rumi as well. You know, Rumi is in Persian language, of course, and I am really thankful and grateful to God that I am born a Persian speaking person. And I know that there are people who are eager to understand Rumi and to approach him. But this barrier of language is a real barrier, because even if you make the most faithful translations, still you cannot get into the heart of the matter. This is impossible. Only it is possible. This door is only open to the people who are language is native. This is the case also with the Quran, no doubt about it. Even for the Arabs, the Arabic of two days different from the 1400 years ago, even I have seen some of, you know, for example, the Egyptian students and so on. They really did that, appreciate the beauty of Quran. They could not, you know, make friends with the Quran itself, you know, because language is always changing. But let alone those who are languages of Arabic at all, I mean they would like to read it through translation, I mean, to English, to French and so on. And that's why even I have seen that some people who had read, for example, Rumi in the German friend of mine, who taught me very repetitive book. Yes, it seems very repetitive for non-person speaking and sometimes maybe boring, you know, because he's saying the same thing many times. Although actually there is no repetition in Rumi, because Rumi, whatever he said, as if he forgot it and he never actually repeated it again, he never alluded to it, he never referred to what he said before, except for a few times in the whole 26,000 verses. Anyway, but in the Quran of course, repetitions are very, very many, very many. And that's why, because it was oral, it was not written. These are the, you know, characteristics of an oral thing, that you mention it several times to different people, in different, you know, occasions and so on. And because of that, when it is put into a written text, then again, it makes, I mean, sometimes it feels that it is not the way that a written text should be. But it is the case. But in translation, of course, you are right. I mean, therefore, it is important for the interpreters and translators, you know, to make effort in order to make the language as, you know, close to the original as possible. I have seen in Persian that there are some, for example, the original, I mean, the very old translation of the Quran into Persian, really does not make sense for us, you know, it is, and they wanted to make it worth my word translation, which is far from the nature of language, language, or a bigger person. Nowadays, of course, we have got, you know, after the revolution in Iran, there appeared about 70 different translations of the Quran into Persian. Some of them are quite good, quite good, in the sense that they are really near to the language of the Quran and try to have the same beauty and the same, you know, effect as much as they can. And they have the same oizah. And the same oizah, this is very important, yes. And, you know, you know why Rumi is so important for us, because it is, sometimes it is said that it is the Persian Quran. The Persian Quran, because it is originally a moeza book, book of moeza, and it is not the translation of the Quran, but the Quran was digested by Rumi, and then he put it in his own word, and especially in poetry. And that's why sometimes even when you read Rumi, you would like to, you know, cry, and that that's, it is a original moeza. Yes, and your point is quite true. I mean, the translation sometimes Quran does not have the same, you know, impressive effect as it can have on people who speak the native language. Is there a possibility in the existential framework, as you mentioned, that you connected to or somebody who is a Persian person connected to the moeza of Quran through understanding the moeza of Rumi, because he had that existential experience, because of the language. So is it also an existential framework? So for example, if somebody is born in Malaysia or China, they might have their own versions of Rumi who have had that moeza or poetry for them to first understand it in their language to come closer to the Quranic moeza, like a hermeneutic device. You mean, is the language Rumi more accessible to them? For example, for Persians, the moeza of Rumi is more accessible and understand the existential approach, because it's based in Quran. And so through Rumi, they can connect to Quran. And so similarly in the culture which are non-Arabic, they may be those people of saints and poets which can act as a linking bridge to this existential framework from which they get the moeza, the feeling, and then they can connect. I really do not know any person like Rumi or any other language. Rumi, first of all, he is unique. First of all, he is unique. I mean, he's second to none. And the whole history of human kind, I am not exaggerating. This is not what I'm saying. It has been said by scholars. non-pursue and scholars, non-Muslim scholars who had read and who had tried to understand Rumi and that is the verdict that Rumi has been unique and still unique. Nobody has been able to even approach him to get near to him. So he's different, really, he's different. And because of that, some people, as I said, said that his book was the Quran, the Persian Quran. And yes, as I said, this is of a gift of God, a divine gift, very precious, that we have such a person. And mind you, I would say that in Rumi you do not find only the Quran, but he has got his own revelations as well. He's an Rf. An Rf is a semi-profit You know, prophets, they had mission, you know, but Rumi did not have a mission. But non-profits can have revelations. And I am sure that part of what he says in his poetry and he mentioned this, that we do not call it revelation because some people might blame us, might attack us, might consider us an apostasy or something. But it is real revelation, it is al-ham. And that's why Rumi has become so important because he's not just repeating the same thing. And he is bringing in his own, his own, his own, his own products. And that's why his book makes a difference in the whole culture. But yes, through him, yes, you can approach the Quran and find it, find the deepest meaning. In one of his poems, he says that has Quran hal-ha'yam biya. Mahiyon about ke-bah-le-kibbya. Quran contains the, he says, hal-ha'yam biya. The state of the mind of the prophets. But I am really reluctant to say state of the mind, state of the spirit. So Quran contains the state of the spirit of prophets. Now this is important. Not only the state of the spirit of prophets, but also the prophet Muhammad himself. And this means that it is really what was going on in the spirit, in the soul, in the heart of the prophet, that reveals itself in the text of the Quran. And the same actually applies to Masnavi of Rumi, is the state of his spirit. And that's why, because it is life Quran. The prophet Muhammad did not write the Quran and did not sit at home in order to contemplate and to think and to put it into words. That was exactly what Rumi did. He was not a poet to just isolate himself from others and to write his poetry in book. But he just, you know, he was during the night. Evening actually, he collected a desert, his pupils, people who were quite ordinary people, they were not scholars, students, nothing. And just recited his poetry, he did not write his poetry. And he never edited the poetry. Like the prophet Muhammad did not edit the Quran. So it is very similar to the way that the Quran was produced, but the Quran was revealed to Muhammad. And Rumi in several places, actually he said, "There is somebody inside me, that he forces me, forces me, pushes me to say things." Sometimes I would like to stay silent, but he doesn't like it and he pushes me to say yes, then to open my mouth, I'm not going to read you the poems in person, but this is the meaning of it. So he felt urge, you know, to say something and to put it in the poetic way. So even from the point of poeticity, let us say, it is like the Quran. And Quran is poetic, as I said to you. Very important and very, very many similarities between the two books. In that sense, how would, as in the existential framework, the purity of heart is really important. It's a, how would Rumi, if we ask Rumi, how to enter this domain of pure heart to approach Quran? How can a listener do it? Well, first of all, I mean, remember that the first ayah of the Quran in Surat Al-Baghara says, "I am a very good Qel-Qutab-A-Rai-Baghara, I am a very good person." This is a guidance for Muttapin. Muttapin are those people who have pure heart. It does not mean the faceful people. It means the people, so you have a precondition of face. You have to have a pure heart, clean heart. Or perhaps you have to be, you know, have some humility towards truth, humility or humbleness. No, this humbleness is very important. This is the true sense of face and belief. Humbleness towards truth in the sense that you are not muslims, you do not consider yourself above the truth. Because, and this is the real meaning of the Qawfah. Because Qawfah does not mean non-Muslim. It means somebody who considers himself above the truth. And he is rebellious against the truth. Look, for example, at the eye in the Quran that Shaitan, you know, "Ablith did not prostrate in front of you." Adam. And what Quran says is this, "Abba'u wa s-stakepara wa kouna min al-Kafari." He rebelled. He did not obey the command of God and rebelled, stakepara, rebelled against God. And because of this, he was a Qawfah. So at that time, there was no religion, no prophet. And a police officer was not a Qawfah. He was a Qawfah because he was not obedient. He was not humble against the truth. Humble, you know, vis-à-vis the truth, vis-à-vis the command of God. He thought that he is superior to the command of God. And he can decide which is to obey and which is not to obey and so on. This is the real meaning of Qawfah in the Quran. Non-Muslim, that's a legal term, that the non-Muslim are called Qawfah. That's a different thing. But the real meaning of the Qawfah in the Quran is the first Qawfah was Shaitan. And that was because of his non-Obedience and non-humbleness and his rebellious nature against God and against truth. And being shameless, as I'm saying, because this is a famous, very important, although the word "shay" is not good in English. Anyway, now this is the utta-bin. And so having a clean heart is a pre-condition for encountering the truth and to finding the truth and to submit oneself to the truth, to hack. So having this clean heart, according to Rumi and some other ethicist, like Al-Razoli, there are only two ways to have a clean heart, to have a clean existence, pure, a clean being. First is just to follow the moral rules, as much as you can, the command of God. This is of course very important but very difficult. And to the point that Al-Razoli says that one has to follow the rule, you know, all the time, in order to purify himself. But even if he does not achieve the goal and during this approach and this struggle, even if he dies, then he is a Shahid, because he has already been in a battlefield, in a battlefield against the Shaitan, and against the Nafsalaam Mora and so on. So this is one way. The other way which is suggested by Rumi is love, love in the sense that somebody here, by but not to use the word "love" this is a different issue. Somebody, you have to have a good friend, that's it, a good friend who has got a very direct impact on you, in the like magnet, you know, and attracts you towards goodness. That gives you a clean heart. This is one of the main teachings of the Sufi actually, that the companion is most important, most important. Instead of sitting in isolation, or perhaps pushing yourself, pressuring yourself in order to purify yourself, which is a good thing, but it is not as successful as having a good companion. Who has done already the job? And now he has got a good impact on you. This is very important. Look at that again. I go back to the time of the Prophet himself. The Prophet had such an impact on his companions. Very important. Had such an impact on his companions. And because of that, they found the way, and they were, they were so much safe to him. This is one of the main teachings of the Sufis. The companion is everything. So through him, let us say, in a shortcut, in a short way, you can reach the goal, as you can find your objective. And heart will be purified and become clear. Very important. Is it the companion more like a teacher? Or yes, it can be a teacher, it can be a friend, it can. Yes, I mean, can have different positions, vis-à-vis you, yes. And it might be your wife, it might be your friend, your teacher, usually, yes. But teaching is not a formal or official way of teaching. Teaching through, you know, what is it, injecting things in you. It's, you know, your attention, even. If you can tell us more about, a bit about how does this companion do? What's the nature exactly? Look, for example, one of the main examples that we have got in the history of literature, is exactly the room and the chants, you know, his teacher. Although we cannot call him as a teacher, because academically speaking, scientifically speaking, he was not more knowledgeable than roomy. He himself was already a fape, you know, an olem, and so on. And chants was absolutely of a different nature. But he changed, he transformed roomy, and his companionship with him actually did not, you know, last long. It was for about two months and so on. But he had such an impact on him that he became a totally different person. And after that, actually he produced all this. Before that, he was like a bear tree, you know, did not have any fruit, nothing like that. Just, I mean, what to call it, life, you know, or dinner-like. But from then on, actually, he bore fruit, you know. He became a different tree hole together. And he became a poet. He became like a prophet. He became very creative. And his companions actually came under the impact of his personality. So it is a chance, actually, in the life of people. You must be searching for him. You may or may not find him. So it is a chance. It is a gift. It is a luck. I would say. Somebody are lucky enough to find such a person, such a companion, such a teacher. And some people are not that lucky. So they cannot blame anybody. This word is like, you know, the risk. You know, some people have got the risk a lot. And they are very rich from that point of view. Some people are not that rich. But it doesn't mean that they do not, they have to give up, you know, looking for or searching for, or even praying for finding such a good companion. Or were you lucky enough if I may ask? Me? Well, I have met some people. Well, I mean, I haven't met in my life people like Rumi, but I am happy that I have found Rumi because this companion, necessarily, should not physically alive. Okay. Maybe he is dead, he belongs to the past, but nevertheless his soul is still alive. And he resides actually in his voice. This is what Rumi says. It is a "I reside in my sonets." So from there, actually, you can make companionship, you can make friends. In that sense, if it is the words, the door is still open, so you mention the book, it is a Zalikal book. And in the beginning you talk about the book, so the book means the book. But in the beginning, you mention that it is meant for recitation. So isn't it a bit of a contradiction because the book is meant to be read? You are very important point. Actually, the meaning of the book is not very well known. Most of the time, Ketab means Torah, I mean the Old Testament. Many cases, actually, for example, when Quran says to the Prophet that you had not been reading any book before you means the Old Testament. And another way, I mean in a different point, in different. For example, when you see it in the case of the Isa, Jesus, when he is in the cradle, he says, "Ahtani al-Ketab, j'Alani nabiyah, God has sent me a book, who was still a child?" And what is the meaning of God has sent me a book, has given me a book, has revealed me to a book. And sometimes, I mean you have got the Ketab meaning the Umul Ketab, I mean the book, which is God. So the meaning of book at this to me is not very clear in the Torah. Yes. And it does not necessarily mean something written. Not necessarily mean something written. But if you must have tried to understand what it exactly means, of course, come close to how do you understand this notion of book? Yes. Well, let me tell you, for example, there are verses in the Quran that the angels, they write what we do. Karaman Karte bin, Ya Allah Muna Ma Thafalun, there are very exalted, very respected writers who know what we do. So what is this writing? And what is the book that they have got? Or for example, in the day of, day after, it is in the Quran that everybody is given a book about what he has already done. None of these necessarily mean something written. You see, so it has got a much more broad sense, something that does include the written text, but not necessarily the whole thing. So the last question is about the thinking Islam question. Last time we asked you this question, that what's your question? You told that you are approaching the debate of free will and determination. You are approaching the question about free will and determination. So right now with regards to Quran, is besides the Qatab question, is there any question in your mind that you are still exploring? If you want to share with us? Yes. I mean outside the Quran. In Quran, if there is something that I am, yeah, something that is still bothering your mind. No, I see. I'm not saying that everything is clear to me in the Quran. And I am not saying that I've exhausted studying the Quran. There are many things that I would like to understand and to know the right interpretation of it. No, something which I am looking for, I am searching for, I am studying, especially the articles of this college about this business of the history of Quran. History of the collection of Quran and whether it has been compared to it, not being compared to it, and you know, because there are a number very, very no written articles about this business. And there were the three volume thing about the Quran. And I was reading that so I would like to make my mind clear about this historical scene. Thank you so much, Sir. Thank you so much. I'm sorry that I was not in a good shape. I'm happy that we could have such an information in the conversation. Thank you for listening to the AMI podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please don't forget to like and share. For more information, visit us at www.olmoddy.edu.