Rough Draft #21 CJ Wu and Zinemap

(upbeat music) - Hi, I'm Kedra. - Hi, I'm Liz. Welcome to Rough Draft with Kedra and Liz, a semi-process podcast about how we process culture by two zinsters based in Chicago. Today we're talking with CJ Wu from ZinMap. - CJ Wu makes autobiocomics about life's little joys and struggles. Besides making comics, CJ translates children's books, teaches languages and runs zinmap.com, a collaborative map of the global zinzin. Welcome CJ. - Hi, thank you for having me. - Hey, thanks for joining us. So tell our listeners what zinmap is. - Zinmap is a collaborative map of the global zinzin. It's a map where you can go on and see all the shops, that sell zins, libraries that have zin collection and zin events like zinfares, zinfests, zin workshops, zin meetups, and all the places and spaces that celebrate zins, basically. - Such a fan of it. Vian culture is so analog. It historically relies on word of mouth and personal networks who you know, tabling at events and people in person passing resources around. So what happens when you try to take that very kind of informal knowledge and put it into a resource that's like zinmap? - A lot of people have been telling me that what they've been doing, like going to events and interacting with this very analog media, like you said, with people close to them. I've been hearing that it's really nice to see a map of the global zinz, like to see what's happening elsewhere and to just look at the shops that shops in London are in pairs or in a whole different continent. It's been nice to see what's out there. It's been nice to see what people are making, like out there out there and also for people that are just getting into it or for people that have been not active for a long time and then getting into it now. It's been nice to just see all the pockets of activity that's happening all around the world and in the zin world. - And you also have it set up that people can make their own profiles and upload information about their own zines too. And it's very community maintained. It's very collaborative with the people that make zines. You can even make an event. You can put up information about an event that you're going to, even if you're not even the person who is running the event. So can you talk about it being community maintained in a way that is something that's more than just you curating it? How important is that collaborative element to you? - I think that's the core of it. I think that really is the core of this website is for it to be sort of like Wikipedia for the lack of a better analogy or a more well-known analogy. A lot of community resources are community maintained like this, but for me, in the very beginning, this is how I was envisioning the map is for it to be collaborative and for everyone to be able to contribute what they know. I think that's really the core because otherwise, it would just be a directory that's, I add what I know. And then if people are nice, they can email me and then I can occasionally update it, but then it's like the responsibility of maintaining it or keeping it up-to-date false upon one person. And that's really not a sustainable model for something that really strives to become a resource that's sustainable. This is how I was envisioning it from the very beginning and because it was just really just me and I was so new to the Zine scene. This was last year. We're not talking like a long time ago. This started last year in, in July, I was at a coding retreat and I was just trying to make something that, you know, I was looking for places that saw Zines because I wanted to stock my own scenes. I wanted to see them next to like my heroes, like Kyla Roberts, like Riyadh Satov, like Julia Words, like people whose comics I just love. And I want to be in the same shops as them, but I didn't know how or like how to approach the shops, how to how the consignment works or how the shops work with independent publishers. So I started talking, I was in Sydney, one shop works like that, like, they actually buy your stuff up front. So I got my stuff into a shop in Sydney for the first time last year and it felt so great and I started wanting to like do it more. Like where else can I do this? But it was just so hard to find things and a lot of the lists online, like that's curated by one person or that was curated by like a team. They slowly not necessarily die, but like information would slowly get out of date and then it's difficult to like keep a list up to date with everything that's going on, like shops closing, shops opening, new shops opening, like changing location, it's impossible. I started Z-Map with the hope that this would become, like I would add what I know, I found shops in Chicago like Quimbees that obviously is like a staple for everything Z-Ens, but there are some more shops in north side of Chicago that also stock scene. So I added what I found out, just through the door to door, like walkins and chatting with staff, but then I invited people to come in to also out what they know, to like actually map the scene together. This was what I had in mind. - It's almost like you were taking notes while you were figuring the world of Z-Ens out and then sharing them with people and then realizing that you needed other people to update filling in the blanks. - Yeah, well, I was mostly relying on, as I know that I'm so new to this and there are people that have been doing this for years and they have like a lot of very local, very valuable firsthand knowledge and experience of what the Z-Ens scene or the Z-Ens community looks like in their city or their country, their region. And I knew that that was so valuable, but there seems to, I couldn't find a way at least, I couldn't find a way for this knowledge to be shared and then maintained and then kept up to date, not by that person who added that knowledge. So like on Z-Map now, you can add something, but it's not like your sole responsibility. To keep listing that you added up to date, other people can come in and then they can say, they've worked with this shop or they've talked to this staff at this location and now they do so and so. So like it's really community maintained. - That is so great. - Yeah, that is amazing. It's community maintained, but you're the sole moderator, right? Or do you have like a team of folks that help with kind of oral mother? - Yeah, with moderation alone, there is one other person that's helping me approve listings or flag listings and say like, oh, this is a distro that does not have a physical location. At the moment, we can't not put a distro like pin on the map, but there's one other person currently, but the system is there for me to maybe, hopefully, unbord more moderators in the future. - It's almost like how Wikipedia has like the guest editors or whatever they call them. It's not all up to like one person in a chair somewhere having to approve each, you know? That feels like that would just be a lot of work. - Yeah, yeah, the moderation. People have been really good at really just adding something like we really have to deal with like spam on the site. That's a non-issue at the moment, which again says a lot about how like nice the seeing community is globally. We've only had to like deal with, sometimes there do put his submissions and the website isn't handling that extremely well 'cause they can like call this something different and then you wouldn't know if it's already on there or not. This is something I'm still actively working on like to, if you're adding something that's already on the map, then it helps you, hey, it's on the map. But if you still wanna add a note, you can or like if you want to look at the listing and update it, you can. - You know, it's funny that you would bring this up 'cause I actually wanted to apologize for you for duplicating something that I made on you. I went to go add the, I went to add the Southside Zine Library in there, which is housed at the Richard J. Daily Branch of the Chicago Public Library. And then I later noticed that someone had made an entry for it, but they didn't call it the Southside Zine Library. They called it the Richard J, they just said, like the Richard J. Daily Branch has, and I was like, oh, this is the messiness that comes with crowdsourcing information, you know, things like duplications or the messiness that comes with making like a tagging folksonomy type of style of tagging, you know, like you don't have like standardized vocabulary, you know, like that I can imagine how messy that is when you get a community involved. - Yeah, it can, like in a best way, it does get messy, but then like I was about to bring that up 'cause that one I think it's still pending. I thought that was an intention, and I realized that this is the same library that we, like the Zine Fest was hosted at. And then yeah, I don't know if the Chicago Public Library Ranch. Should. be the name. Like you said, it's not necessarily standardized, but there probably should be a better way on the website to at least detect that it's the same address question mark. So that like you get a little note that says this listing might be here like if you want to add a note you can. It's like you're working out the issues that come up in the bugs and the messiness sort of in real time, which the parallel I would draw would be the same way that you learn to do self publishing or make comics or published zines or do right, you know, you were, it's through that DIY experience of making a thing that you learn it kind of in real time, which is sort of beautiful. Yeah, that's definitely feels parallel to that kind of figuring it out as you go. I really wonder what your experience was like submitting things and like just being on the site because you probably spend a little time on there. I saw that you created a profile there. I did. I did. I was like, it's funny. I was doing it and I was, I knew because I know how hard you work on this. I was like, oh, CJ is getting these alerts as I'm making this profile. I actually don't. I actually, there's no like notification system. So do you just come in like every like a couple of hours every day to check it out? Yeah, a lot. It's really like the first thing. This like, I don't know. I really admire people that run shops to like open every morning, 95 and then close or like people that physically show up to kind of make space for artists, for self publishers, for the zine community. And then this is kind of starting to be my version of that like opening shop, checking every once in a while to see what's on there. But there's currently no notifications set up. There's an admin panel. So like whenever there's like a new submission, it shows up under the new submissions that are like the queue. We do have that in the on the admin side of things. I was curious about language because it's a global map and you have folks from all over submitting information. And as Liz talked about, there's duplications. They somebody might get something slightly wrong. Do you ever have any language based conflicts that happen that say like people say that it's this in this language, but it's actually in this language. And you have to like sort it out. And is there a way to like do quality control or to fact check or has that ever happened? Or is it something that it kind of sorts itself out with the folks who update and add things? Yeah. When you say language, do you mean like how people phrase things? Yeah. Like different languages. Like if you have like in Japan or some other country where somebody submits like a name to something and it's like actually it's this. Oh, like foreign languages are like different. The naming problem I also sought as sort of a language problem. But a lot of people that are submitting things like an event in France, for example, they tend to include both languages. Like the title or the event name would probably be in French, but then the description they would write in both French and English. That's happened sometimes and in Germany too. In Japan, as you can probably see, there's currently very few pins in there. I've talked to one shop owner on my very short trip during my 10 hour layover in Tokyo. And then I think the language barrier could be what's preventing this site from reaching the Japanese scene making community. That's something that I'm actively working on to not necessarily resolve, but to accommodate. I'm putting out an open call for translators that will be working on translating the site interface. So the site would be available to browse in different languages, but then we would have to make sure that taxonomy is all localized too, because sometimes consignment or paying up from that can be mapped differently in different places. People have different ways than the database would have to be. Maybe potentially remodeled if a place works really differently, but the open call that is going out this week would really just be looking for translators to help work on translating the interface. I imagine too something else that might not to make this even more difficult task for you, but I imagine something that might complicate it even more is even in the same language, sometimes the terminology for things we don't necessarily agree on. The example I always use is when I say chat book, I mean the zines of the poetry world. Chat book is a zine of poetry, but someone else might say no, a chat book is just like a zine, depending on what your background and your experience is. So having that discussion in multiple languages for something that is an art form with definitions, we can't even get people to agree on exactly what a zine is. We all know, it's like I know it when I see it and we have certain qualifications that we use or the way I describe what a zine is to people who don't know what it is, that we would all sort of agree on, but generally speaking, even within the same language we have issues defining the terminology. I can only imagine the headache that that creates when trying to translate a site like this into multiple languages. Yeah, because I've worked on localizing or translating site interfaces for tech companies. I was at Groupon and then in France, I worked at a bank. So I've worked on it and I know what that would look like because with the interface, I think the challenges that you're constantly updating the site copy, like it's not a fixed one off thing. You're constantly updating the copy, like there's something new on the site or like something changes, the categories change and then you would need to like have the new copy translated before you can release something. So that was like the challenge that I was envisioning is that I need to get a group of volunteer translators and then to sort of have a workflow for that to be like maintainable because it's never like one off task. But also just with what you said about in one language, there can be like different perception or people just understand a term differently. I think I've tried putting together a pretty prescriptive guide for shops and libraries. There's a new type tag mostly because people wanted to be able to filter like some people are really into comics or comic scenes. They want to be able to go to shops and filter the shops by comic book shops and to achieve that I've added a shop type. So you can like now tag shops as like a gift or stationary shop or like a record shop vintage shop or art design more like design oriented book shops that sell art books and then comic book stores independent book stores and then zine shop and I tried like in this pretty I'm putting it in quotes the quote unquote prescriptive shop type guide. I would say like this is my understanding of like a zine shop if you're calling it zine shop I'm thinking of Quimby's. I'm thinking of like sticky institute in Melbourne in Australia that's a shop that only sells zines. This was my definition or z maps definition of a zine shop but I see that people are tagging other shops as a zine shop like they think of zine shop as a shop that sells zines. I tend to start to think well maybe people like know it best if that's what they expect like a shop with a big focus on zines is also zine shop then it is. I know you're relatively new to the zine world but in doing this I feel like there's so much to learn as you go so I'm wondering if zine map has taught you anything about the zine world but frankly also it hasn't taught you anything about like creating a resource or a database that you weren't aware of or that has surprised you since you started. Well I've definitely learned how like different the zine scene might look in different places. I feel like this knowledge was not really available to me a big picture kind of thing but maybe this is what zmap has helped revealing is like in the US I'm seeing like a lot of shops a lot of libraries a lot of events like a lot of everything and then in let's say down here in Australia we're seeing a lot more events like in Sydney there's like 20 events in a year just in the city of Sydney or like places that you can reach via a train ride there's so many events but not a lot of shops are working with self publishers there's like only a handful in Australia just the zine scene is looking very different in different places also the data is only telling us about things that are happening in places where people feel somewhat comfortable speaking or using or reading English. What we're not seeing is also kind of important, but I'm hoping to be able to address that kind of soon. And also just how much that goes into maintaining a resource. I guess that's something that I've been really learning. Like I knew this was never like a one off thing for me. Like, okay, I'll build a site and now it has like listings and you have a button to approve listings. And that's it, it's never just that. There's so much. Just to build it, you have to model the real world. You have to really know what's going on to be able to represent because we're putting something that's really hard to catalog into boxes. And we're doing that with zines. This site is not necessarily like archiving zines, but it's sort of archiving places that have or support or celebrate zines or zine culture and just how difficult that can be to present or represent. - It's almost like you're creating an archive of scenes, not zines, but scenes or like an archive of past events like over time. - Yeah, yeah, it's definitely felt like that. And people have been using it like that. Like, oh, another thing that I've observed and noticed and learned is that like, people are telling me by like how they're using it. They're telling me what Z-Map means and does. In the very beginning, when I made it, I just wanted to make it easier for people to find places to sell their zines 'cause I wanted to sell my zines and I couldn't find places in that really was the beginning. And then people told me or they mentioned like it would be so nice to have libraries on their toes that they can like go find zines and beat zines in the library. And then that new category was added. And then with events, people wanted to like be able to put events on there and events were added, which like is a whole new like layer of logic of like recurring things and one off things. And then with the past events that you mentioned, like almost like having an archive of events. And I noticed how people were taking like zine fast 2025 and editing it, updating it to like zine fast 2026. So like overriding the same listing. Yeah, to like update the location, for example, where like there's a new open call now. So like they're updating the deadline for submission or like application. But then I realized that's an issue because people would be quote unquote going or people went to the previous year's event. And that's showing up in their profile as like they went to zine fast 2025. And if they update the listing now, like it would be inaccurate. And then people would not be able to then maintain like on their profile. Some people are really like religious in the great, greatest sense about like archiving or listing events that they went to. So they really want to keep a record of all the events that they went to. Like it would kind of damage the record if you overwrite an event that they went to in 2025. And then you edit it with like new info for the same event, different poster, different venue, different location, et cetera. So like this is something that I'm working on but it definitely gets messy because I've already approved edits that did this in like previously. But then noticing people do this and they keep like a record of things they went to or like it's effectively archiving past events. And it's not at the same time, it's a living directory but then it's also an archive which is really because like you said, it kind of opposes each other. The use is there's a friction between it's used as a living directory that evolves but it also has an archive of things that have happened in the past. And so like the tension of doing that at the same time is really fascinating because it's really the community, you know, making meaning of all this information themselves. - Yeah, yeah, and I've noticed how people are like in their link tree or in their website or list of links of things they do. They've been adding their Z-mat profiles to their link tree. So it's almost like their Z-start LinkedIn for lack of a better word or. - Wow. - Oh my God. - That's like, it says what you do. It says like you can have a list of your Z-ins on there and that's already on there. And it has list of events that you've been to or went to your table that this is still like in the works 'cause you can't really tell if you just went to a fest or if you'd table that a fest but yeah, that's a whole other thing. But people have been adding it and then it's got a tab to see your contributions. So like your knowledge basically it's your work, your knowledge, your contributions to shared resource and then events that you went to like your presence sort of in the scene. That's what I noticed. It's also new to me. Like when I saw it I was pretty surprised. - That is fascinating. People using it in a number of ways. Notably personal archive, scrapbook. And also, I don't know if the best razor this would be but they're sort of Z-in professional persona. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know if you noticed the tags can tag yourself as like a Z-maker or shop owner or like your roles in the Z-in scene and then another set of tags for things that people can reach out to for like trades and stocking requests and like speaking panels if you're like knowledgeable in a way and interviews. So those were added because a shop reached out and told me that they're really new, they're in Iowa. They're actively looking for people to stock their work but they couldn't really find people. And I was like, well, there are really, already a lot of people on Z-map and they've uploaded their work. And now if we can have a way for people to say like they're open to be reached out by a shop to stop stock their work. - So when are you gonna change the name to, you know, if it's Z-in LinkedIn, you could call it Z-in. - Yeah. - Whoa. (laughing) Do you think you'll ever have it where people can do like that kind of impersonal interaction, like having customizable profiles on the level of a LinkedIn where people can do like we imagine having that level of functionality for Z-map where people can do trick out their pages and almost like my space or whatever. - Yeah, I sense that this would go there. Yeah, but this will like kind of be like a Z-inster of my space because people are really creative and they want to like decorate their space and want to make it really like them, like really, I don't know if Z-map would be the place to do that, but there is like a way to add a link. So on your profile, there's a really prominent place that you can add your link and that's a lot of times 'cause there's really no way to message people on Z-map. There's no inbox as of yet. So one immediate way to reach someone who says, like reach out to me for X, Y, Z, you go to their link and then that's kind of where you see their my space. So that would be their website. So it's one click away, I would say. The site currently doesn't really allow for that sort of customization in the future. It like you might be able to move things around. I haven't given this too much thought, but there's like you can add your link and then because a lot of people are reaching out to other z-masters they see on here, like through their personal link, that's how you basically reach someone and some people would put their shop links to like Etsy or itch.io. It's like a click away to like their personal link or personal world if that answers the question. Yeah, I mean, definitely, like I pulled up my profile just now and I was like, oh yeah, I could see how someone would, like if I posted this somewhere and like someone could use that as like a landing page for like, yeah, here's my sort of quote unquote professional. I mean, that's a weird word, but you know, like this is my zine identity page right here, you know, in a way that feels more curated and relevant to people that are into that subculture than any other type of like if you want to use social media as a comparison, any other social media site, you know. Yeah, yeah. At some point, I remember you giving me kind of an overview of like an inventory feature that you were working on that was about your own profile or whatever, like if you wanted to, I don't know, I guess, itemize the zines that you had sent somewhere and where you had sent them and whether they were in confinement. How's that all going? That is not going at the moment, but this was a feature that was implemented on day one 'cause my problems as a newbie's easter, I had two of those. One was like, where are the shops? Where can I find shops that would potentially sell my zines? That was my problem one and problem two was like, how do I keep track of my batches? Because a number of shops have said yes, I'm stocking at a number of shops and they have. varying like I've signed like consignment forms but they all say very different things about when I should check in some say like don't check in more often then like once per month but if we don't hear you for X months then like we might not be able to pay out they all say different things and then I used to keep an Excel sheet to track that but then because it's all like in words it's all like I don't know like natural language and then when you're looking at an Excel sheet and then you see like 10 rows of natural language of when you're supposed to check in that's really like I don't know it gets really messy and hard to keep track so this inventory or dashboard thing was there since day one and it's very underdeveloped because it's underused in a way because I've since learned that let me look at my survey results real quick maybe only under 10% of the people that are actively using ZMAP are actively trying to sell their zines like it's like a niche activity within a niche community and the rest are like looking to maybe sell at events that's pretty big here in Australia they're looking to trade they're looking to sell on maybe like Etsy or they're just leaving it somewhere for free like in free little libraries or they're donating and the people that are actively trying to sell and keeping track of batches that's less than 10% of the current user base of ZMAP so it's it has not been like no new things being added to the dashboard but if I hear from people requesting things or I hear feedback regarding this section of the site I'd be really happy to hear any sort of feedback you know what that tracks considering that so much of this is community based and so much of what you do is based on the feedback that people give you so the lesson for people using ZMAP that are zine publishers use that function by going into the dashboard and while using it see as like part of the user experience you know what works well what doesn't work well and then let you know as the person that's behind the design and the coding and the moderation and all that that some of this effectiveness of the site is contingent on the people that use it is it feedback that motivate you to make changes to the website user experience first or are you driven more by the actual like the stats and your own user experience like what motivates you to make changes more immediately I think both they're both feedback like whether people are using it is also great feedback so like stats would tell me whether people are using it what then they're telling me specifically or what they're not telling me like if they're telling me all about oh I want we want libraries we want events we want recurring events to like set up a workshop series for example or we want to be able to be able to attack our zines because zines currently don't really have any tagging or cataloging we're like we want to be able to reach out to people without having to go to Instagram that's also what I've been hearing I think all of it like it's all really useful information to hear as someone who's running a resource and then I think my quote unquote job is to kind of really decide what this thing is becoming I don't see it as like trying to become the next social media platform for people so it's never going to be like feed-based or something's never going to rank higher than another thing that's never going to be part of this but then like do I want to be able to represent distros I think that is a yes because it's still part of the zine scene and a very important part of the zine scene but does it go on the map I think for now is no because the map is for people or places that you can visit like you can reliably go there and they have like open hours or event and event starts and ends at this time but then I think a lot of decisions to make to like to be able to have a shape for this resource I hear you on the distro thing because as someone who runs a distro you know we don't have a physical space that we are necessarily based out of we only do off-site events we don't really have you know we don't really do mail order we don't have you know so the your website is called zine map so it would track that if you run a distro there could be a place and there should be a place and you even have a tag and for people's profile to say that they run a distro for you know for distros but I can understand why you would be like well you know it's called zine map and if you don't have a physical location how do you go on the map you know so like I totally get it you know but I can also understand why you would be like yeah but like they're an integral part of zine culture you know so I appreciate your thoughtfulness on that thank you that's really valuable input for someone who from someone who runs a distro and thank you for mentioning also that you can like right now the only way sort of to represent yourself as a distro is to attack you your profile as like a distro runner I think that's what I'm calling you now and then you show up on the zinester's map if you're adding yourself to the zinester's map as a pin like that does not have a very accurate physical location then people can filter by going to the roll drop-down and going to distro runner then you can see people they're running a distro and then reach out to them that way but then distros also work like shops like they have a lot of the same taxes shops if we were to have them represented in a database like they have a split they have like is a consignment or pace up front but usually I think it's consignment and then like a lot of the terms do overlap with shops so I'm trying to figure out a way for them to and also if you were to like put your zine badge in the inventory like I do work with aquatic panda and I do have a zine badge with them and I do want to be able to put in my zine inventory dashboard that you know I have a badge there that then in that sense they're almost like a shop so it's it's tricky I want to ask you about how I know that this is a passion project and passion projects you know they are the stuff of inspiration and awesomeness but they are not without their hidden costs you know not just financial cost but I was hoping that you could talk about the hidden costs of doing this and you know maybe it's maybe it's time or sanity or brain power or the energy that goes into moderation or the emotional work of dealing with personnel you know any of that stuff just because I do love hearing people talk about how they navigate those challenges yeah it's it's definitely all of that it's time sanity brain power it's I admire people that are able to make things sustainable and I admire people that are doing it just showing up constantly physically like librarians going to work people running a shop going to work opening a shop and like sorting out consignment just being there working the kashir I think I kind of want to make a job out of this too I think ideally that would be almost like the best shape to not to necessarily compensate but to run it like a responsible resource and to be able to get funded in some way I'm actively looking for ways to maybe get grants maybe it's partially through crowdfunding partially through grants I'm also like exploring the academic route potentially pursuing a PhD in an adjacent field that would allow me to keep working and stewarding the site a lot of questions and very few answers what would be the best way for people to support you to be able to do that would it be donating to your kofi fund like what would be the best way for people to be able to help you with that that would definitely be one great way is to donate to the kofi fund I had a goal on there that was just achieved I think earlier today which was a little over seven hundred or something to cover this year's tooling last year I was paying for the tooling part of it out of pocket but this year as of now it's been completely covered by people who donated so I'm really grateful so now the tooling part is covered well just for people who don't know what tooling is tell them what tooling is oh server databases like every time you go to a website and the website is serving you the data like the images technically like every website visit costs money. Like someone has to pay for the server to serve you data. And every time you query something, you filter something, you're paying for the database to do that work or someone needs to pay. So that part of the cost I had to pay out of pocket last year, but now it's covered. Well, congratulations. That's a big deal. Yes. I imagine also probably a helpful way for people to support you would be to make a profile on ZinMap and to tell people about ZinMap. Yes. That would be really helpful as to because it's a shared resource. So it only becomes, it's a network effect. It only becomes more useful if more people use it. And then that would also grow the website, but then the work around it would also grow. So if you have skills that you would like to contribute because some people was offering very kindly offering their graphic design skills to design a new logo for ZinMap because the current one is not exactly aesthetically pleasing. So like if you have skills or if you have ideas or advice or suggestions in terms of funding or getting grants or grant writing to help frame this project because right now it's kind of awkwardly shaped for a, let's say, a state or a study to to fund it from their arts council just because it's a global map of the Zin scene. But if that's really like a me blocker, but if you have ideas how that can be phrased in a better way for potential funding opportunities, that would be great. Great. All right. That is all very helpful information for both our listeners, but also I think for me and Kedra too. So CJ, where I'm obviously we're going to put all this in the show notes in terms of links and stuff, but besides ZinMap.com, what other links do you want to share with the rest of the world? One other link is CJWu or CJWUcomics.com. It's where I keep links to various comic things. We're going to have to have you come back at a later time where we just talk about your comics. Yes, please. I'd love to. Do you have any events coming up that you're going to be at like, yeah, maybe you're going to be tabling selling your comics somewhere? Yes, I will be doing another event in Sydney. Scamp. It's a Sydney comics. I don't want to like mess up their name. Something, something Sydney. Yeah, scamp. Scamp in Sydney in November. That's another comics event featuring some of the best comic artists in Sydney and me. Do you have any social media handles you want to throw out for people to find that information in case you post about it? Yes, I'm on Instagram as CJ makes comics. Awesome. All right. CJ, it's been awesome having you on. Kedra, I want you to tell me about what you want to promote and where people find you. Usual places. Kedra Cheney and World Ramp Publishing. On Instagram, KVC and World Ramp Publishing on Blue Sky. I think by the time this comes out, I'll still be looking for submissions for actor age fandom at 35 plus and beyond volume four, which is about toxic fandom. So please come with your toxic fandom horror stories because I want to publish them. And I will also be at the Zine Librarian Unconference on November 8th talking about Wild Ramp Publishing Zine mini grants and why they are cool and important and why other people should be doing that. Yay, awesome. I've got an interview up right now that I did with the organizers of the punk scholars network US conference organizers at razorcake.org. And I have my weekly Wednesday show on chirp radio at 107.1 FM Chicago. You can listen to at chirpradio.org or on the chirp app. Okay. Last piece of housekeeping. So we're going to do it. We are celebrating our first anniversary. We've been doing this for a year and we have reached 1200 downloads. So it's yay, go as we should get a cake or something. So we're going to do a special anniversary episode. And we would love if you could share any of your favorite moments with us. Special favorite episodes, favorite, I don't know, favorite weird things we've said. It's all good. But you can email us at [email protected]. Just whenever. Okay, I guess what in the next? Oh, no, next couple of weeks. It takes me a while to edit stuff. So then like by the time stuff comes up. But like we're also happy to hear from people anytime about what they enjoy about our podcast. So you know, don't let me stop you. That's [email protected] if you missed it the first time. We'll put that in the show notes. Okay. CJ, I didn't actually ask you if there was anything else you wanted to say about ZeeNMap, but apologies. Is there anything else we didn't talk about since we just inter-de- like derailed everything to talk about ourselves? I think that's, it's pretty much covered. Okay. Yeah, I will also be at ZeeN Library on conference. I forgot to mention to talk about ZeeNMap. Excellent. Okay, you guys. I am so embarrassed that I have to do this every episode. But I always encourage people to help keep us going by liking, subscribing, rating us at all the places with all the stars. I know it sounds gross. I hate having to say it. But I'm doing it. I did it. We're all better for it. All right. CJ, Kedra, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. We will see you next time. Bye. Bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]