Rose Gray | From Louder, Please to "Club to Your Arms"

Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade Electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins, Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. With Share My Trip from Uber, you can send your live trip location to the ones who matter most, like Dan and Hannah, who always wait up to make sure their daughter gets back to her college dorm room. Or Tiffany, who's running late as usual, and her friends are tracking her trip to make sure she's actually on her way. Or Sam, who never goes anywhere without her roommate knowing exactly where she is. Some journeys are meant to be shared. Share your ride in real time with Share My Trip on Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app. I think I'm a very emotional person, very connected to my feelings. I feel kind of everything. What is the story of Clubbed to Your Arms? My partner just said I'm like a storm. I come home from a tour. With all my suitcases. I'm chaotic. I destroy the house. I'm out. Started as a different song. The great storm of England. Day two, we deleted all the lyrics that talked about the great storm of England and wrote. Thank God, yeah. Thank God. So bad. I always felt a little bit like on the outside of like everyone having a lot of fun. I hate that feeling. I hate knowing that it's not gonna. Just carry on. You miss the party while it's still happening. Whilst at the party, yeah. Oh my God, that's, yeah. That's a song. Something that I'm really feeling with this second record, we've talked about it a lot, is I'm really owning my voice. Yeah, I'm here now. Hello, I am Justin Tranter, and this is Unfamous, a podcast where we tell the unfamous, untold stories about your favorite pop culture moments, and more specifically, about the art of collaboration. Our guest today, and there's just one, because I don't need two collaborators today, because our guest today, I have written an obscene amount of songs with, so we're just going to dissect our own collaboration for you. Our guest today is a British superstar in the making, nominated for the Critics' Choice, Critics' Choice? Critics' Choice. Critics' Choice Brit Award. Which is the Brit Award for Best New Artist. The Critics' Choice Brit Award nominee, one of the most beautiful singers in pop music today, and one of the most exciting songwriters in pop music today, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone in between, Rose Gray. Wow, that was a beautiful description. We were writing a song together yesterday, and now we're sitting here with a bunch of cameras and lights, and it's always funnier for me to, weirder to start interviews with people I'm really close with. Is it? Yeah, I was thinking this. Yeah, because if it's like, I don't know everything you're going to answer today, but I can probably guess a lot of them. Yeah, so it's like, how do I like, I still, my favorite part about doing this podcast is learning. Is learning, yeah. So it's like, I still am going to push myself to learn. Yeah, I was trying to think if you know the whole story, which I think you are. I obviously do, because I don't stop talking in sessions. I say, I tell you everything. Well, speaking of sessions, what do you remember about our first session together? I remember first talking to you on Zoom. On Zoom, yes. I have a really, like, very strong, because it was just after COVID. Yes. And I remember, I can even remember what I was wearing, this whole way it was. What were you wearing? I was wearing a ragged priest jumper. Yes. So specific. And I had bleached blonde hair at the time. And I was living in Hackney with my best mate. And it was actually a bit of a shit time, to be honest. It was like post-COVID. I had no idea what was happening with my music. And management said, do you want to have a Zoom? But I didn't really think about what it was about. I don't know. I just, I didn't think that it was, I thought maybe we would write a song together. Oh, on Zoom? Maybe. Yeah. I don't think I knew. I wasn't kind of used to, like, people in the industry wanting to talk to me. Oh, you didn't realize I was trying to, like, publish you and sign you. Yeah, I had no idea. So Rose has signed to my publishing company. And that's how we got introduced, was that I know some people in your management. And they smartly were like, oh, there's this new dance pop girl. Justin's really gay. He probably loves dance pop girls. Very smart. Smart. I was like, what's funny is I actually listened to, like, sad lesbians. But I. I love this about you. Understand the power of dance pop girls in my community. Yeah. So I was like, yes, put me on a Zoom immediately. Yeah. Yeah. So you just thought we were like. I don't know what I thought. I think that was, like, a lot of my early career was just, like, not really having, as much as I, like, believed in myself, it's like I didn't have the hugest expectations because I was kind of used to, like, not many things going my way. Yeah. So when I thought, I had no idea it was about publishing. That's, I didn't. I had no idea. That's new information to me. Like, absolutely no idea. Wow. And then, because you offered a publishing deal, like, basically after that call. Yeah. Because I had heard, I don't know, I think, like, your team sent me five songs that I was obsessed with. Yeah, my EP. And what I could tell immediately, even though dance pop is not my first love, what I could tell immediately is that your dance pop had a level of taste that I was, like, very interested in and excited in because it was, and it was referencing a lot of stuff in the late 90s that other people weren't referencing yet. Now people are referencing, but you were a couple years ahead of it. Yeah, just like five, six years ago. And that was very exciting to me. And yeah, after that first Zoom, I was like, yeah, we have to sign her. She's amazing. I remember it was, yeah, and Mark was on it as well. Yeah. Mark Taylor. Mark Taylor, who runs my publishing company. But I do remember our first session and I know exactly what song it was. What song we wrote? I think I do too, but I might be wrong. What song do you think it is? Do we write Switch? Yeah, Switch. Okay, good. First session. Yeah, that was the first session. Which is a really funny song to write. It's like, hey, nice to meet you. Should we write a song about sexual positions? I feel like I worded it in quite like an innocent way. I was like, I feel like in my life, everything's just like switching up. You were like, Switch. And I hadn't yet signed to you. And I was like, thank goodness we wrote like, good that I wrote a good song. Because you're like, shit, I'm about to sign this guy. Pull the deal away. Yeah. And then we did Angel of Satisfaction like the same week. Which is one of my favorite. We wrote Angel of Satisfaction and I Don't Speak French. On the same day. On the same day. Which is very rare. Yeah. We both write quickly. But to write two really good songs in one day is not normal. No, it doesn't. It doesn't usually happen. It's usually the last song. Because you're usually on a song and it's not quite clicking. So you start a fresh idea. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think me and you are quite good at. Yeah. Knowing. Let's move. And not be precious. No. And just move. Yeah. Which is, to anyone watching, hoping to learn about co-writing and collaboration, voice note it. Maybe put a little quick idea down. But don't be afraid to just move on. And if there's a gem there, voice note it in case there's something special. Or just have the SM7 running in the room. Yep. Catch, get everything. You're so good at that. Oh, I'm like trigger finger. You are always recording. Which, weirdly, some other songwriters that I have worked with, they don't. They're never recording. I learned very quickly to be of service in the session. Yeah. That since the songs are almost never about my life, since I'm never going to sing, the song it's for someone for you to sing. I learned very early, like let the person who's like talking about their own life and the person who needs to go and sing it, let them be as free as possible. And I can be like the sort of like technical part of this. That's what I've actually learned so much from you when I, because a couple of years ago when I was writing for other people as well, it's like you let the artist lead. You have to have to, it has to come and, and I feel like when we're making music, it's, it's almost like I'm like. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade Electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? On any journey using Uber, it helps to know you're getting into the right car. Pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride. Before the trip begins, your app gives you a unique pin. Just tell it to your driver, and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start. Hey, what's your pin? 2538. That way, you know, you're in the right car, taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger. Make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from Uber. Plasticity. What the fuck does that mean? Is that a British word? What is that? Plasticity, like plaster, like that you mold, right? Is it plastic? I've never heard that phrase. That must, any, Any Americans heard that phrase before? - Never. - Love it. see we're learning I am really dyslexic with words so I could have just completely made that word up so they'll let us know in the comments yeah yeah so it's like I'm you know I've got all these ideas I kind of want to start start I want to make something and then you almost like you you're like sculpting you're like tidying it up you're like finessing you're like maybe you should cinch it a bit more there do that but ultimately it does always feel like it's like so me and then you just come in and it's always yeah that's my favorite thing to do it's amazing and you listen surprising how you know I've done the rounds 10 years of sessions since I was 17 18 and the listening part is sometimes left out of making music which is kind of mental well I feel like the second you decide that you're going to write songs that someone else is going to sing for me hmm I feel like the second you decide that you're going to write songs that someone else is going to else it's creatively it should be about you because your fans want to hear about your life but also to be like gross about it if you aren't obsessed with the song you're not gonna come out it's not gonna one it's probably won't come out two if it does come out you're not gonna fucking post it 85 times or 200 times which is what it takes to break a song now and if so if you feel like that song's not you you're not gonna post it 85 times or 200 times which is what it takes to break a song now yours but you were like made to sing it you're not posting 100 fucking tiktoks and you can also like sense that a mile off I can from artists yeah and like contemporary so you can see it completely and you can also see when an artist just like in love with what they're doing which is what I felt like with louder please I feel like with all our music yeah I mean most of it I say like sees the light of day like a lot like a lot of everything in the last six months that we've made kind of is gonna come out yeah we are in some way we are on a roll we really are this this new album is um you're just writing your ass off and to see you now how long we've been writing together now four years four or five years four or five years to see you um how clear your vision has become um and to see you even so much more confident while writing um what I also love to see which I think is really helpful for anybody watching the more that you perform yeah of course you're becoming a much better performer hopefully the more you perform you become better at it but what I think is so beautiful to watch is that you're becoming a better writer because you're understanding what does the audience respond to what do they love about me um and that's what I think is so important to so many new school artists can become superstars from their bedroom which is fabulous but there's so much more to learn if you get the fuck out into the world yeah I have learned so much this year yeah over the last year from live you know tough shows as well being openers and not always having the crowds yeah connecting at the very beginning and yeah just knowing yeah from from songs like for instance like everything changes I know how that the energy of the crowd switches when that when that song comes in yeah people are you know people come to my shows to party but there's like everyone stops you know lovers start sort of holding each other there are tears they're they're connected to my every word and I so many people come up to me and like you know I was I'm 21 I live in Brooklyn I just fell in love I went to my first club night like I know that that song connects so with the second record I'm like I want to do more you know storytelling like that well it's funny you should say that because Morgan wrote a question for me to ask you when I'm just going to read it specifically to show how good Morgan is at her job how do you build dance music that still feels emotionally raw underneath the production um and she wrote that question for both of us to answer but I want you to really do it because I think that that is what made me fall in love with you and want to sign you and want to write with you as much as you'll let me write with you is because you have partied your ass off this is not a character no she's not a character yeah there is no it's interesting though the last year I haven't been like I'm not in the party I'm like I'm working the clubs I'm performing you're creating the party I mean yeah so I'm it's a different type of partying now but yeah it's definitely it's a big part of my I won't even say like youth I would say like young adulthood yeah an adult yeah no I knew you were a proper party girl when you told me that you said you you were speaking to me you're like you have such a healthy relationship with alcohol I was like girl if you think my relationship with alcohol is healthy we have got to talk about yours no I mean like I'm kidding I'm kidding you know you love like the you have like a you have like one or two cocktails well that's maybe that's in the studio yeah yeah okay yeah yeah um no but what I love the most about you me to you the most still is that there is this party element that is so real and honest and it's true that you fucking have spent your time in Hackney Wick and all these different places that are famous for underground raves but you there's always not always because some songs are just pure party which is great but a lot of them there is this whole other layer of storytelling and emotion and um was that intentional for you or is that something that just started happening I think I'm a very emotional person very connected to my feelings I feel kind of everything which I think a lot of songwriters we're like that but um I don't think it's intentional I just think I I almost when I first started writing music I did write ballads I don't know if you know like do you know have I told you probably I probably told you uh and I was you know from a very indie kind of ballad world yeah so then I think I did that and I think I've technically written a song that's taken that and now I make more electronic pop music but I still have that like foundation of like writing yeah proper song that yeah that like gets there and gets to the point I also love like a I always say can we can we just make the verse a bit more human and I'm always like just trying to connect to them like you know little stories if it's Hackney Wick if it's Brooklyn Nights if it's you know my YSL dress I've just taken it off like I love that those specific visuals very specific visuals which I guess I don't know I don't know if I've ever done that but I've always I guess maybe a lot of dance music doesn't have yeah I mean now there is a lot of I feel like amazing women putting these kind of lyrics and men but mostly women let's just be honest into more like electronic and alternative dance music but um I think that makes me a little bit different because I've always kind of written like that and now I do it in well there's such it's in your lyrics and it's also in the way you sing you have such a proper range and such control over your voice that is growing and getting better which is also so cool to watch because I have been scared about my voice because everyone says I've got to watch for vocal damage you know yeah I've probably done 150 shows including clubs in the last year like I sing a lot of music and I've done a lot but actually what's happening is the voice is just getting stronger yeah but you have the proper technique to back it up yes you're a former former theater girl theater girl yeah you have that training classically trained yeah I am and I'm something that I'm really filling with the second record we've talked about a lot is I'm really owning my voice yes because I've you know I've I've always been able to sing I was that kid that just could sing yeah and I and I couldn't explain it um I you know I loved to perform I'd stand up in front of my family but something happened when I got into my early 20s as I became almost like I didn't think it was like that cool to like belt and like show my voice right just mental so I you know started to speak singing and I started like you know like which I love still yeah but the second I'm really like having so much fun with my voice well for me it's again crazy to watch like even with our new song club to your arms uh which I think by the time this podcast drops it'll be out yeah um when you sing because the song is already out so if you haven't listened to it listen to it right pause listen to it come back when you sing that huge moment for the last chorus it's took my breath away I've been I that's probably the 40th song we've written together and I didn't know that you could do that and we've written 40 songs yeah and my thought in my head was like well yes this is iconic but how is she gonna do this live every night and now I search for your videos like a creeper yeah every show you do because you've started performing it even though it's hasn't been out and you I do do it it gets better every time yeah how does that feel for like even though the world is just starting to fall in love with you you've been on this journey for over 10 years how does it feel that in like 10 years in that you're like surprising yourself that's great it's it's almost like I don't necessarily I'm not necessarily surprising myself because I know I can I've sung like that always oh right i've always kind of sung like that behind closed doors like i will in my spare time put on like a uh i always used to sing dream girls and i'll put on like listen and belt the hell out of that song um but to see people in the crowd like shocked there is visible like shock on their face when i do that note which is so funny i'm loving it i'm loving it yeah um what propel fitness water with gatorade electrolytes zero sugar and vitamins propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self what propels you propel with gatorade electrolytes on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and then you're good to go they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin two five three eight that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from uber one more way uber is putting safety at every turn learn more on the uber app tell me even though i kind of know because we wrote it together but i think clubs your arms is a great example of what you do so well which is it's if you don't want to pay a ticket you don't want to pay a ticket you don't want to pay a ticket it's a fucking party yeah if you want to pay attention there's a full story there yeah and both versions of listening are totally valid what is the story of club to your arms because also it started as a different song the great storm the great storm of england club to your arms started for a good two hours we tried to write a song called the great storm of england it's the perfect example how you should not give up on a song because it was it it was a terrible title and i think i was and even i this is where you're so brilliant because i think you maybe you knew that we i was going down a bit of a rabbit hole with the whole storm thing i did yeah but you just let let me navigate it it's an hour or two who cares yeah yeah so i'd i just got back i was just about to go to brazil i think i was in la for a couple of days come to brazil come to brazil was happening i was i was in a very chaotic time it's like the end of the year i was pretty exhausted i just had my like headline shows in europe and um i said to you i was like justin and zone i was like i just my partner just said i'm like a storm i come home from tour with all my suitcases i'm chaotic i destroy the house i'm out i'm at an event you know i'm barely making time for my friends my family for my partner i just feel like i'm a storm and so we started to write the song the great storm and the reason why i let it happen is because the idea of the story of like i love my partner deeply but my dreams are also coming true yeah so i don't really have time to be a good partner yeah these are broad stroke yes no no it's so true so that essence i was like well there's definitely a song in there and a song that i want to write if it ends up being called the great storm of england that is tbd yeah but i i saw the brilliance in the idea yeah and when we just let it we let it go go hello my little unfamous friends so um the thing about the algorithm little miss algorithm is that she um doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it so if you follow this podcast what do the old school youtubers say like subscribe and follow um if you do that for me then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people so please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things bye where did we we arrived i think we'd written the court i'd i because i said club to your arms club your arms was just the end of the pre-chorus so that's the original version is that's not the main idea of the song it was just the end of your pre-chorus because i always we always give credit where credit's due you've pretty much freestyled that verse the first verse and pre-chorus yeah 100 of that melody you freestyle yeah and then about 50 ish percent of those lyrics you freestyled yeah and i remember said i i never felt so much pressure baby i never looked better i think i said showgirl fatigue and did i go balenciaga balenciaga came later you just went la dada balenciaga came later because it was gonna be prada it was gonna be changed because he was like jason valencia because harry has a deal with balenciaga so funny so funny yeah it you freestyled prada but balenciaga and prada luckily rhyme yeah so we were able to keep the same sound yeah yeah yeah and then that's also why the storm at the beginning there's storm at the beginning yeah um and then i think it was day two we deleted all the lyrics that talked about the great storm of england the great storm of england the great storm of england and wrote thank god yeah thank god so bad um yeah and then we not always like what we usually do we went really in on the chorus and like picked it apart yeah which is what i do in other sessions to be honest but with you we don't usually have to do that but this song felt something was not quite right it wasn't right and also i think it was like i don't know i don't know i don't know but also a lot of times we start with the chorus together and we would wait for that magic to show up but the magic showed up for you in the verse in the pre so it was not like most of our songs together and not like most of the songs in my life at all normally for the most part i i would say 80 percent of the time we start with the chorus but that verse and pre melody just came to you and we were so in love with it that we had to really fight for the right chorus and we fought on this not really for the right chorus but we fought on this not really for the right chorus but we fought meaning fight each other but fight the song yeah for the right structure we we went deep together on it and it's one of the rare occurrences where um because sometimes if you fight too hard on something it sounds like we work too hard and it just sucks yeah but that song and you lose like momentum kind of in the room but when you found the melody for the current chorus yeah too hard trying to make it through that came to you really fast yeah we just had to try like six different times to get there so there still is that that that magic in there because it did come fast but it was just the sixth try i remember when i sung the two hearts part i was like oh no this is already a song but it's just because it feels so familiar it's just so classic this is classic yeah timeless yeah what do you feel with clubbed your arms but all the second album as a whole what do you feel is different about it from the first album hmm definitely um , feels in a similar world and a sonic world yeah feel that but i think propel fitness water with gatorade electrolytes zero sugar and vitamins propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self what propels you propel with gatorade electrolytes on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip to the uber, begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin two five three eight that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from uber one more way uber is putting safety at every turn learn more on the uber app from a narrative point of view there's sort of some growth in my life and what i've been doing and i've traveled so much over the last year like i have a lot more to write about and places and little you know my sort of usual things of like the brooklyn the ysl i've got like loads more sort of phrases and things because i have so much more experience in the world um the voice thing really pushing um my vocal and what i can do with my voice there's there's a kind of confidence that i feel i feel it like within myself i feel it in my career i feel it in my writing and i think that can be really felt throughout the record yeah there's a bit of a like yeah i'm here now yeah you know louder please felt like i didn't necessarily even know at times i was making an album right i was just so determined to get it out and you know the struggles to get it out oh it's yeah like no one really apart from us and my management yeah we're backing it yeah at that point yeah and my like 120 fans They were desperate They were amazing All 112 were begging They were amazing And you know like my mum and my pops You know big fans But now I kind of Yeah I feel like there's people that want to hear what I have to say What I love so much watching Is that you are giving me so much faith That someone can grow a fan base Without a viral moment And I can't wait for your viral moment As one of your main co-writers And also just someone rooting for you But to see you go from 100 tickets in LA Nine months ago To 800 tickets sold two nights ago To see that without a viral moment Just people finding your music Sharing your music And loving it It gives me faith That like Artists that fucking deserve the world Can still get it It's slower It's harder It's longer But also now when you get that viral moment There's this beautiful body of work There is a lot for them to dig into What do you feel like Was like your creative breakthrough When you were like Okay this is what Rose Grey sounds like Yeah Honestly I think when The week the record dropped Oh cool It was kind of mad I did understand That I had made something brilliant My friends were all You know they wanted They wanted the record They wanted to play the record out Months before it was done Everyone was like I need to hear that I need April I need So I had that I knew it was great But I think when it came out It was quite like Almost overnight You know I saw Massive paragraphs of people like What the hell I can't believe I just discovered this song Or you know People that I'd grown up loving Messaging me like God I just You know heard everything changes And I think it was the first time I was like oh wow No this is I think that this This is going to do something I think my life might change now I didn't I didn't understand The roll out of an album Yeah I didn't understand touring I had I didn't even have in-ears Right Like I didn't I had three shows in my diary Wow January 2025 I did not know that Yeah Wow And they were tiny They were tiny 200 cap rooms Yeah In Manchester, Brighton and London Wow And like that week I think Kesha reached out About the tour Sugar Babes You know people I just was like oh wow Okay This is the first week So I can't even imagine In like six months Yeah What will have happened Yeah Yeah And it kind of yeah It's been gradual It's slow And so then having that feeling Of dropping the first album And it being received with love That you weren't expecting How does that affect you As we've been writing Almost done Basically done writing this album Yeah But like having that confidence Does that change you as a writer When you go in to collaborate? Yeah I think it has I don't think I've like changed How I make music or The way I write music I don't think I've like changed The kind of I'm definitely still The same writer and artist But there is this confidence That's kind of like I feel I think you've probably seen it I feel just So much more like in my body Yeah I think that's playing live though And like feeling the crowd And just knowing that you've got Thousands of people that are Loving Rooting for you Rooting for you What I think has been great to watch With your confidence is You know Giving Whether we're While we're writing Or after we've written Is you giving your thoughts To producers Yes Yeah And you and I will like Talk or text on the side Yeah Because I Know a lot about songs I do not know a lot about dance music So when it comes to like How it should sound Once we get past the structure of the song My job is done Cocktail is being spun Yeah Yeah And when it comes to like How this should sound Because we're working with a lot of Unbelievable producers Wizards I call them wizards True wizards Yeah But you Are the only one of anyone We're working with For the most part There's exceptions of course But for the most part Who like Spent a lot of time Late in the morning Or early in the morning Late at night Early in the morning Absorbing dance music for years Like this is your world How do you feel How do you When you're like Giving notes to producers Who have written some of the biggest songs of all time I sometimes think about that I'm like oh god I'm literally being like You know that little Synthy Twinkle Yeah I want it to sound a bit more like a bubble I actually saw Madonna say something Quite interesting about this When she was working with William Orbit Uh huh I watched her like I don't know if it's a documentary Or it's just like a YouTube 20 minute clip Where It's her in a studio And she I don't think I necessarily Understand a lot I should give myself a bit of credit I do know The elements of dance music And I can talk about synths And I can talk about this 808 But she just describes everything Like how it feels And sounds And I think I do that In a lot of voice notes I'm like It's a little bit tinny A little bit crunchy You need to open it up My favourite one was I think it was at the end of the first chorus Of Clubbed Your Arms And Zone Who produced it Is a fucking genius And we're lucky to know him And you were just like Zone There's a fart At the end of the first chorus It has to go away I know exactly what it It was though It literally sounded like a Scratch But watching you Get the confidence To be like No I know what I want And I've Even if I can't describe it technically I'm gonna tell you what I want It's been a lot of fun And really awesome To watch Because I don't know this world And you do And do you feel like You're getting better At telling these Straight men hit makers What you need Or like how has that process been for you? I'm getting better I wanna get better at it I definitely am Good I'm a good voice noter Yeah I won't I'm you know I'm not gonna ever put out anything That I'm not 100% behind Right And I You know I did that With my first record I was always like On an indie I had full control To the point where I don't think my A&Rs Even listened to it No they did They did I'm joking but Maybe We'll never know We'll never know But I Definitely I'm just using That model of What I did with my first record Yeah For everything that I do Moving forwards It is It is mad though sometimes Yeah I'm in the studio And I'm like Oh wow they literally like Made my favourite songs And I'm just like No No But it's your album You have to have that confidence Yeah Also we've made Songs with You know Huge people And it's like They are Brilliant And I'm aware of that But they're maybe They're just not For you Me Yeah They are Maybe Too perfect Yeah In a way that I can't quite It just doesn't Stand behind Stand behind What I'm doing Yeah But there is You always say I sometimes Think I'm a little bit Scared of like An amazing pop song Like there's a slight Fear sometimes Yes We Have a thing I don't know what it is Where This For the most part The songs that you're Scared of Are The best ones What is that? I don't know And He's the underdog in me It's the Capricorn I don't know enough About Capricorns Explain Like It's the long route It's the longest route possible Yeah It's the mountain goat That like Falls so many times That by the time They get to the top Like they are like Battered Which I kind of relate to Yeah So I do always I'm really noticing In myself actually Like I'm all I always try and Overcomplicate Everything Yeah Which yeah That's why you get scared Of like Pop songs Because Yeah Not always But for the most part The best pop songs At least the chorus Is very simple Simple yeah And I We always talk about Like let's just repeat it Two hearts Two hearts How many times Can we say the word two In this fucking chorus Yeah And I think Do you know what Why that you're Scared of that simplicity Because even on Clubs of your arms You didn't reply about it For like a week And I was like Oh fuck I can't do this On this song We can't And then you went on vacation With your family I played it to the I played it to Harry And he was like Obsessed And I always feel like That's a very good Kind of If a straight man's Like obsessed With a dance pop song A dance pop song Like wow Wow This is Crossed over Yeah Yeah I It was It was instant The writing on club Yeah Instant And like Left the session Like crazy I actually was A little bit knocked I played it To someone Who I And they were just like Yeah it's alright That Just Give me their name and number. Tell me afterwards. Yeah, I will, I will. So that's just, I think I probably just went, and I was really tired from traveling. I just got to Brazil and I think I was very tired. Now I've probably listened to that song a thousand times. Yeah. And it's my favorite part in the set now. Yeah. And the video, like everything. And the fact it's, you know, first, second week of June, it just, yeah, it's all, I feel like the stars have aligned for this song to come out now. What, through, now all this 10 years of co-writing, 10 years of collaborating, and now you and I have locked in and we have our favorite producers to go to and even the people that you work with in London without me, like you, what has surprised you the most about you as a co-writer, as you as collaborating? Now that you're here and you feel so confident and locked in, what is surprising you the most about the collaboration process? Um, I still get blown away by when the entire room is locked in and it can be almost like it can happen in like 25 minutes as you like write like the best song of your life. And it's incredible. Oh, it's the greatest feeling. It's the best feeling in the world. It's better than any drugs. Oh, it's high. It's better than anything. It's high as fuck. Yeah. And you leave the session and sometimes, if the producer's on it, they'll send you a bounce there and then because it's just, we don't even need to figure out stuff. Let's just have it in our headphones. Yeah. And I listen on my way back to my Airbnb or whatever and it's like, wow, great. I will never get sick of that feeling. Yeah, it's the best feeling in the world. And then it's that classic thing, who do I send it to? Yeah. That's very confusing for me. Explain that for people trying to learn about the business. Explain what you mean. When I say, who do I send it to? It's like, obviously I have a team, have great management. I have friends that always want to hear my new stuff. Usually, if it's a song that kind of blows me away instantly, I will send it to about seven people. Yeah. Which is always a good sign. Yeah. So I think Club, I did do a big sort of like mass, Jesus, listen to this. Yeah. But it's so, it's so scary. You open yourself up to like, yeah, it's good. Oh, it's all right. Or like nothing. Yeah. Anyone listening, actually, if a friend who's a musician or a writer, you know, sends you something they've painted, something they've written, a song they've made, reply. Fast. Please reply. Yep. Please send love. Like, I think you have to say you love it. Yeah. Because if they've sent it to you, they love it. Yeah. And it's probably amazing, but it might not be your taste. And I think that that's really important. Because if a friend is just trying to share because they're excited, meet them with excitement. If a friend says, hey, I want your thoughts. I want your help with this. That's a different. That's different. If a friend just sends you something with exclamation points or emojis. Please just send them love. Just send them love. But if they ask you for your thoughts. Yes. Then. That's it. That's a different conversation. Yeah, that that reminds me of the time, Justin, you sent a group of us a song that you wrote for Cocomelon and we were like, fucking banger. Nailed it. Seven year olds are going to flip. That's the energy you have to be met with. Well, I was, you know, doing this Cocomelon thing, which I'm so honored to do because it's such this beloved IP. But then, like, to all my friends that we all, for the most part, all met while living, being pretentious assholes in Brooklyn. I'm like, guys, I'm doing Cocomelon. I'm going to fucking text you this. This is my subconscious thoughts. I'm like, and you have to support me. See, I've made this decision. Because I've made this decision. And I also am loving. I'm having a blast doing Cocomelon. It's all about balance. I get to work with cool girls like you. And then I get to, like, make this really cool kids musical. But it is true. It's like if you are signing up to a friendship with the artist, whether that like you said, painting, whatever the fuck we do. You are signing up to be a cheerleader. Yeah. Sorry. If you don't like it, block us. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I might maybe I need to state that, like, just I'm just sending this because I love it. Yeah. No, no commentary. My friend, Caleb Herron, comedian who was our first guest on this podcast. He says even when he it was an amazing piece of advice I learned from. So I'll repeat it here and tell it to you so you can learn, too, is he said even when he sends it to his team, he will be very direct about what he's looking for. So he'll say, I'm looking for feedback. He's writing TV shows or a full stand up, our stand up set. I'm looking for feedback on just scene six. Or I'm just want you guys to listen to this because I'm really excited. He'll just tell even his team, I'm going to start doing this. I that really blew me away. I was like, OK, that's because then you get. If you're looking for help, you're going to get help. If you're looking for support, you're going to get what you want. And when you sent just be bodies to one of your business text threads, yeah, you got no reply. Yeah. And I had to be like, Rose, thank God you talked to me about it. Yeah, because I was like, I know this song is amazing and I'm not going to bullshit you because we're doing this together, so bullshitting you doesn't help me. This song is amazing. Don't. Yeah, don't let that sour. How special this is. And now everybody loves. Oh, yes, everyone loves it. But I've I did. I should remind myself because I had this even with louder, please. They were like, I think tectonic. I had a few people I had. I just sort of felt like I'd play in a room and it would maybe. Not, you know, you can just feel it, you can just feel it sometimes. But that's like a fan favorite. Well, you know what? It well, let's just be honest. When I heard tectonic, I was like, yeah, it's nice. Yeah. And then I see tectonic live and I'm like, this is my favorite part of it. Yeah. So it's I think things change when stuff comes out as well. It takes on its own life. Yeah. Whatever it is. And fans when fans get to put their claws in it, it becomes a different conversation. And that's why it's so important as a collaborator to listen to the people you trust, but also sometimes you have to go with your own gut, your fucking face on the album. Cover. Yeah. At the end of the day, it be a good collaborator. Listen from the people you put in place to talk to you about it. But like tectonic, when I see that live, it's just so special. And your voice shines and you made the right choice putting on the album because I can tell your fans love it. I watch it happen. And now I love it. You know, it's really. Yeah, kind of in that space. Well, we're in that space now of the second record. It's like everyone's asking for tracklisting, you know, and I'm just like, I'm just feeling out. I'm not. I don't think I'm ready yet to put the tracklisting together because I haven't. Well, we talked about yesterday and I think a great thing to bring up for anyone learning about collaboration is that I said, I know what songs must be on the album. And you said, oh, I'm the exact opposite. I know what songs are definitely not on the album. But that's like four, which is really, really hard for me. Yeah, but that's a good sign that for us to trust each other, we're looking at things without even talking about it in two very different ways, which is great. This is a question we ask everybody on the podcast. What song or it can be a video or a performance? What piece of musical art did you see as a young person that ruined your life in the sense of like, oh, fuck, now I have to do what that is. And now I'm going to go on this million year journey through the worst business ever made. Unfinished, Sympathy, Massive Attack. I think you've played this for me. I've like covered this song. I covered this song as like a 12 year old. I need to find that footage. So deep. I loved that song as a child. And it's actually interestingly more like what I'm doing now. Like euphoric, like deep lyrics with a woman who has a big voice. Yeah. But the production is just crazy. Yeah, my dad, my dad kind of like my pops loves like trip hop, Portishead, Tricky Knot, like I kind of grew up listening to a lot of that. And I think Beth Gibbons, who's like the lead singer of Portishead. I kind of I think as like a 10 year old, like I kind of thought that was going to be like what I would do. Cool. Weirdly, I'm like, I'm so much more pop than that, but. Yeah, but in a sense, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's clear that it is interesting, though, to say, because I just realized that about myself of. My big. Thing that ruined my life was the Queen Debbie Gibson and learning that there was this young woman who wrote her own songs, which I've said in every episode, but get used to it because it's not going to change and we keep asking the same questions, so I have to keep talking about it. But then I went on this big theater journey and I was so obsessed with theater. And now here I am, a pop songwriter, just like Debbie Gibson. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of it's like. like that was my big moment of learning about her. but when I learned that she wrote it all it was that was my big change for me um and kind of funny right that you it was massive attack this really cool I need to get that lady to make her name because she was such a singer on the song yeah um and then we both come back come back to it yeah yeah because I went down I did go theater an actress maybe maybe I'll be an actress no not not then it wasn't gonna happen yeah so many auditions but it didn't happen and then um I fell accidentally into sort of like guitar indie I think I came off the back end of like Amy and Adele and just these British working class girls that went to the same high school same school as me you know from the same ends like I was like oh that should just be what I should do you know like that vibe yeah and I did do that vibe for years wow Just like when I started going out I was like this is not who I am like I'm not really this kind of indie neo soul girl like yeah I am I grew up on Madonna like I want to be Madonna so like I switched up I still get people to this day that like might have seen me at like Ronnie Scotts or something when I was like really young like oh I do miss that that lovely music that you did back then you know and even my pops we've talked about it in length like he loved he loved when I made music like that yeah but I think he's finally like getting it now that I don't think I'm gonna go back there yeah I mean but also for now that you found a way to really show off your voice yeah in the genre you feel at home in um now I think the world is your oyster it's like taking the vocal magic from yeah your first try and putting it into the world that you really actually love yeah we end every episode with a game called gag or drag okay gag means you love it drag means you hate it I don't have to explain it to you yeah some there's you know some people don't have any gay friends so they don't know what I'm talking about who doesn't have any gay friends we can't we can't we cannot trust you you can figure it out yeah just watch the episodes yeah yeah um okay gag or drag songs prioritizing aesthetics over emotional truth drag drag drag yeah yeah which I love to hear you say that because you are so good at aesthetics sonic aesthetics but you do want to tell a real story every time yeah yeah even if it's a fun story there's still like it's always about something that happens yeah I'm I'm working on the concept thing but I'm not yet there where I can just make up a song and kind of make it all up it has to be on you know there's a lot of truth yeah everything I write which I think is why you're special yeah um gag or drag people becoming underground after going to one warehouse rave drag drag yeah I'm not for that not one maybe like five yeah and like you've moved area you've broken up with your partner I love that you've changed your eyeliner yeah like yeah that's fine that's fine um my best friend Austin um who you know I love him he's the fucking best he will always say um he's like part of different communities because he like went to like one S&M party or something I don't think one weird party in Palm Springs makes you a part of the leather community I don't think now five after you've broken up with a partner and changed your eyeliner yeah then that's fine yeah yeah we can count it um gag or drag sad lyrics over the hardest dance beat possible wait there's a song of yours that I didn't write that I just realized is really sad party people party people tell me talk to me through this because when I was watching your show on two nights ago I was like wait it's really sad is this the saddest song ever basically I've always felt a little bit like on the outside of like everyone having a lot of fun I don't know what that is I don't know what it is and I have this friendship group that's like not really my group but I hang I've partied a lot with them and um I would always sort of just be watching them I'm in the club but I'm like or I'm at a rave but I'm like and they all are so connected and they they they are so like good at partying they do it really well where I don't know if I quite have that in me like it kind of can break me yeah and I will go home crying and have a terrible week um so I kind of like I've sort of watched them from afar you know they are the party people and I've always kind of wanted to like fit in with them but like not really not that they haven't like let me in but and also it's just it's just like that that feeling of being on the dance floor where you kind of feel so at one and free but like knowing that it's also not gonna like last yeah it's I hate that feeling I hate knowing that it's not gonna carry on you miss the party while it's still happening yeah oh my god that's yeah that's a song yeah that is a song that's a song okay great um oh I love this Morgan gag or drag trying to heal while still making terrible romantic decisions drag drag yeah drag yeah yeah but yeah it's kind of a rite of passage it is yeah I think that's what like everyone's 20s are for yeah yeah which is why I just stopped dating because I couldn't stop doing that yeah yeah not yeah so that was let me just stop dating about 12 years ago okay um gag or drag voice notes sent after the club gag I mean I'm so I don't even know what I've sent so bad I also think I equally I send voice notes after my first coffee in the morning which I think is dangerous it's a drug it's a drug yeah and I and I say things sometimes not that I don't mean but that I wouldn't naturally say not on drugs yeah by drugs but is caffeine yeah so yeah yeah it's embarrassing you know when you can see that people have saved them as well I'm like oh no well some people just have that um that automatic setting yeah yeah which always sometimes frightens me because if I like send a really inappropriate message I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm joke or talking mad shit and i don't know that person has automatic save on i'm like oh fuck yeah they could ruin my career and what no no i'm kidding i'm kidding um industry people calling everything a moment drag drag yeah who's laughing over there is that a manager laughing who's laughing a moment although i do say moment a lot but i like i can say it you can say it you're an artist yeah um gag or drag drunk heart to hearts with strangers in the club bathroom gag favorite thing gag yeah yeah i'm due one of those actually yeah haven't i haven't had one in a while well you are performing at the abbey tonight yeah it might might happen tonight it might happen and you can since this episode will come out after that you can put in the comments yeah if it happened if it happened or not i need to just this is something i've got to get better at well not better it's just when you play you can kind of be like quite like you know you have your green room and you're removed so it's important it's important that i get get in there well you should do it well you don't want to be drunk though before the set i was like you do before the set so maybe you'll meet someone who doesn't know who you are yeah that happens all the time really have that heart what do you hope that people take away when they hear club to your arms oh wow um i think it really captures that feeling of being out in the club and craving someone and wanting that person that's at home maybe they're not even real maybe they're just you want that person to be at home or on the other side of your phone um i there's that i i love that feeling of being out and kind of it's quite cheeky yeah you're so like drunk and you're just like know that knowing that someone wants you and that you can get them if you want oh yeah it's hot yeah i love it but it's yeah and the the sort of the journey home kind of you know am i gonna wake them up what's gonna happen um i love that feeling yeah and i i agree because i think my favorite part of the song even though the first verse and pre-chorus is so fucking magical and that's why the song exists the second verse is i want to wake you up to fuck it's just so real of that idea of like we've all been there unless you've never been drunk before but you also could not be drunk that's true like you just get back from a really good night and just like feel yourself and you just want to wake your partner up and be like let home i don't care that you've been asleep for six hours let's go yeah now i just think that second verse is so deeply human yeah of like i'm kind of messy as well it's yeah I think it's what you said about the song, Morgan. You loved like how glamorous it was, but also so messy. Yeah. I like when something's like a middle finger with like a pretty pink bow wrapped around it. Yeah. Like a little smear. Yeah. I love that. And she really noticed the idea that you asked for six times that finally happened, which is the song always started with a storm because we were going to call it the Great Storm of England. Yeah, then it ends with the birds. And then it ends with the birds waking up. The song coming up. Yeah, I did ask a lot for that, didn't I? You asked a lot and it finally happened. Happened, yeah. And it made me so happy that like Morgan being one of the first few people to hear the song, one of the first things she's noticed. Oh, it's best because the storytelling is so good and there are so many layers and it comes not just from the lyrics, but also just like all the different sounds and the textures, you know? Yeah. And I think that's so cool. So I was kind of like, oh, it's so funny when you didn't want to go super simple with some like lyrics or moments in the song. But like. It was already, it's so rich in every way. And it's like, I didn't even think of that as something too simple. It just like gave room for, to breathe, for other things to like stand out. It's great. And I think that's an amazing point about all, no matter what you're writing, directing, creating, that if every part of your art is too detailed, then it can't shine. Yeah. If it's really simple, two hearts, two hearts, repeating. Trying to make it through. That lets all the other, all of your other really detailed ideas shine. Last thing, if you were to give someone watching this who's desperate to write songs or collaborate in any way, what piece of advice have you learned about collaborating that you wish you would have learned sooner? Wow, okay. Which piece of advice? I think for me personally, I was a very, and like a lot of, you know, kids that like, I was so, like, I wanted it like then and there. Yeah. And I needed it. Same. Whether that helped, I think now it helps having that energy. But I think when I was like 17, 18, 19, I mean, even till I would say like a couple of years ago, it was exhausting and it wasn't good for my head. And I wish that I, I kind of let myself just like enjoy it and grow and graft, kind of maybe like a bit more quietly. Like I could have done it without always like having to put, like maybe I didn't need to bring out music at 19. I could have just wasted a little bit. I don't know if that's good advice. 'Cause I think some 19 year olds, 16 year olds are ready and they are making the best music of their lives. But I just wish I'd kind of like, sat with it and just, you know, I was working other jobs until like three years ago, which was fine, but I was just so hungry. Yeah. Which I kind of wish I just chilled a little bit. Yeah. Like, and let it happen naturally. Yeah. Like it has. I think my big takeaway from that is that, is the thing that I wish I would have known too, is that attention is not the goal. The goal is great art and the great art gets you the attention. And I was so desperate for fame and attention that I, instead of writing 80 songs for my band's first album, I wrote 15 and released 12 of them. You know what I mean? Like I was so desperate for the attention, just like you're saying, but so desperate for the attention. I was so desperate for that to happen so quickly that I forgot or don't even, I didn't know that unless the art is as good as it possibly can be. Yeah. You're never going to get the attention you want unless you just want to be on a reality show, which is not shade. It's just a different conversation. I love that advice. And that's really important advice. Did I articulate that correctly? Cause it's very personal, but I think the like trusting that things sort of happen at the right time. And I think I've, I think I did know deep down that like, I wasn't gonna, you know, be up for a Brit that year because I hadn't yet probably not made enough songs. And I didn't, I wasn't dressing. I was dressing and I would come out in different clothes, different styles, different everything, every day, every show. She was a different girl, which is so fun. But I don't think that makes sense. It didn't make sense for me as an artist. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's, no, you said it very clearly. Yeah. I think it's amazing. Also if you are 19 and you're like, you know, you got it, don't hold, don't hold back. Yeah. I think the main takeaway from what you're saying too, though, is, or another takeaway is, is that, cause I know for me when I, I would put music out and I wasn't famous overnight, it would be so devastating. Yeah. And so that's the other thing is if you're putting all of your eggs in the attention basket and you don't get the attention. You want. Then that's hard. I had that with early stuff on louder, please. I found it. I remember Angel of Satisfaction came out and, and it didn't get put in playlists. It didn't get put in any playlists. Wow. It switched the week after. I don't know what happened. I think someone at Spotify or someone somewhere was like, Jesus, what's happened here? We need to, but that it destroyed me. Cause I was like, how can a song this good? Yeah. It's a very, we, we, we kicked ass. Yeah. It's a great song. Yeah. It is incredible. I love it. Yeah. Um, I think people also need to remember too, that like, just because something might not be playlisted, no matter where you are in your career, it's not a reflection of your talent or your worth as a person. Yeah. I think that's a really important thing. I think that's a really important thing.