Rookie Review: TEs + Nasty Trade Targets - Dynasty Fantasy Football

Welcome to the Fantasy Footballers Dynasty Podcast with Borg, Betts, and a Baller. Welcome back. It's Wednesday, January 21st here, Fantasy Footballers Dynasty Podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Borgannoni, and I'm joined by Matthew Betts and Mike Wright. Fresh off an awesome national championship game for anybody that is a college football fan. That was a very, very fun game to watch. Honestly, the last, like, two and a half weeks of football, regardless of program or whatever, college, amazing. So, great time of year to be an NFL fan, a college fan. And I always love, like, when the college season ends and NFL finally slows down for us. We talked about it last week. Kyle is in prospect mode officially. You had your prospect primer come out, what was that, last week, Kyle? Awesome read for everybody out there getting ready to make the transition as we are from NFL to college. It feels like we just simmed the actual season, though. Like, when you see Indiana as national champion and as, you know, if you've followed college football for a long time, then it just feels off, it feels different. And yet, we do have a player that's going to go number one overall that we're going to talk a lot about. And he's a character. He's a funny dude when he starts talking. He's a character, that's a good way to put it. Okay, we were talking before the show. Do you think other people, they're either going to go one or two ways, like, I love this guy's vibe, I love the way that he wants to fight, or is he, like, too nice of a guy? And it's like, I want someone that's going to hit me in the face. I don't have a lot of exposure to him, so I'm newer, so I'm coming in fresh here. And, I mean, it's really based off of, well, you know, a couple of games watching him play, but then the two interactions at the end of the game. You know, you had the one game before the national championship he wins. He is very much okay. Aware that he's on TV, he's censoring himself, he's using words like flippin', and you're like, okay, well, is this guy a goober? Or is this guy just a big-time goober? Turns that all upside down, because the next time he gets on the mic, it's hot. He says a word we don't say on this podcast, and you're like, okay. So, I wondered, you know, maybe he just, you know, like, he's like, oh, my parents are watching, you know? He's like, I don't want to say swear words in front of my parents. But, like, it feels a lot like Philip Rivers mic'd up. Right. With Philip Rivers, like, heck yeah, frick yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not going to say a word. And this is not a take of, like, you got to use curse words to be cool. It's just, no, you could be all over the place. Like, Philip Rivers, cool. Yeah. Keeps it clean. So, I think I'm okay. I can't wait to dive in more and watch him, because. What he did was incredible. The run that they went on, undefeated, champions from essentially nowhere. You know, I mean, you got to, we'll be, there'll be a lot of figuring out where the credit truly belongs, but we won't know that until the next couple years go. But he at least, he looks the part. We like that he's big, you know. And not that we are short kings. It doesn't, it's much harder for them. It's much harder for guys like Bryce Young and Kyler Murray. You know, every once in a while, you got a Drew Brees, so they're just, and Russell Wilson for most of his career. It's not that it can't work out, but you just, when a guy is 6'5", you feel safer. You know what I mean? Like, there's a higher chance that this guy can hit a ceiling. He'll go to the Raiders, more likely than not, which that's going to be its whole situation. It's going to be its whole situation of, can that team figure things? They don't have a coach yet, do they? Am I misremembering? They do not. Not yet. I mean, they, they got an uphill climb here. It's going to be someone brand new, probably. But I'm in. As of right now, I think I'm in on him being a fine NFL quarterback. Fantasy is very different, though. Yes. And I think that's the conversation we will have over the next couple of months is, with this as the number one overall pick. And the cast of characters around him, Jenty, Bowers, Jack Besh, year two breakout, come on. Is he going to run enough? It was turning around, Kyle. It was turning around there for a while. Okay. One of my friends the other day was telling me all the reasons why that was just, you know, Jack Besh is the dumbest thing ever. And then I just flipped it on him. I said, we got a lot of upside here. Play caller, new quarterback. Things are looking up for our guy. Jacoby Myers gets traded. And then eventually, you're, you know what? We got a week. Six, 13 through 16. Guys, no fewer than three targets a game. Absolute monsters. The haters will say it's fake. Come on. The haters will say it's way too low. And they will be correct. They definitely will be. But at least we were at least moving in a positive direction. And then he got hurt. We will have all of these prospects, all of the teams. Betts is writing them up right now in our team opportunity report. That's part of the ultimate draft kit plus. So the dynasty pass for 2026 is already underway. We're putting together our production profiles, which I'm excited to turn that conversation today because the production profiles that we looked at last year for tight ends were spot on for how they produced in the NFL. Like it was one of those things that if you just ignored draft capital and you just said, how did this player perform in college? How are they targeted? What was their dominator rating? You would have had a pretty good idea of how they performed in the NFL. So, uh, all of that is included in the dynasty pass, which will launch on Superbowl Sunday. I did have a quick question for us because we're about to be in the season. You know, depending on your league, your trades are turned on. Maybe your league does it after the NFL playoffs, but Mike is starting to put together a list behind the scenes of his early trade targets list in the dynasty pass that we update all throughout the off season. It's usually players that we would say this players might be a little undervalued in your league relative to the trade cost. Uh, there might be an upside, a case that somebody isn't considering, or there's opportunity to the offense that could open up more in the future. So I wanted to give us a chance to list a couple of dirtier names. Oh, yes, it is. At this point, I think I have the least dirty name. No, yours is not nasty at all. Yours is, but it's still a great name to talk about. All right, I'll throw mine out first is by Shaw Tootin, uh, who just finished his rookie year with Jacksonville Jaguars. Tootin, when we, when we first profiled him out of Virginia tech, the things that we saw was he breaks tackles at an elite level. And when you saw that this year, he did that. He was 11th among 55 qualified running backs. Uh, he was fifth and rush success rate fifth and percentage of yards after contact. In fact, I found the statistic and I think it gave me a picture of like what kind of running back he is. There were only four running backs in the NFL this year that had success rate above 57% against, uh, in zone and man gap schemes. It was Kyron, Chris Rodriguez, AKA Crod, Crod, Samajay Piran, the paint bot and by Shaw Tootin. So all four of those runners, what they're not great at is explosive runs like these, these like 15 plus yard runs. That's never been Kyron's thing, but Kyron led the league and rushed success rate this year. He was incredible in terms of getting what you needed per down. And it seemed like they trusted Tootin around the goal line. I had, I had to make sure this is correct, but Travis Etienne had 26 carries inside the 10 yard line, 26. That led to only four rushing touchdowns. Tootin had eight and turned it into five rushing touchdowns. So he had more rushing touchdowns inside the 10 and Etienne. Inside the 10. Do you have the five numbers? Yeah. The five was Tootin had five inside the five. Etienne had two inside the five. Yeah. So Etienne, at least the way I look at Etienne is not a, he's a space running back. To me, like, and which he's very, very good at that. But when they came to the goal line stuff, like that's where, you know, beginning of the season, you got to rewind a long ways. Like I was on the tank Bigsby side, very incorrect as they traded him off. And Travis Etienne had himself a, a pretty good year, a year. That's definitely going to earn him a lot of money, but Tootin is fascinating of watching that. The, their final performance, you know, on the unfortunate exit in the wild card round, you had that drive where Bayshall Tootin was just gouging and the, the bills couldn't stop anything. And then it felt like Cohen got, he little bit outsmarted himself. In my opinion, that was my, and like not even just hindsight watching the game. You're like, why, what are we doing? Lawrence is not playing elite football and your running backs are ripping it off. So I don't know why we're not running. a little bit more but tootin especially in that game and it's it will come down to travis etn you're like this is speculative at this point because it's free agency hasn't hit but that's kind of you got to make your decisions of how do you play dynasty fantasy football right do you buy once the news is solidified because once the news is solidified prices are either way up or way down or do you live in the murky waters of calling your shot of is travis etn going to be on the jaguars next year because if he's not i mean at least right now the value of baseball tune will go way up he will be the presumed starter now this year is weird uh kyle i feel like i've posted a few times on our slack of like late round running backs this year i don't know if this is the most successful year every ever for day three running backs but we had a handful of guys who were really contributing to teams and tootin was in that list of he's a day three running back so you still have that you'll have slight fear that he's going to get replaced but i think we saw enough of basial tootin that he should be the primary guy everyone's at a time share these days that's fine but i think he'll be the leader of the time share and gives us those high value touches that goal line work yeah i think that's a good way to put it in terms of like like the trade for piece of this right now is like we're saying there's a i don't know i don't want to say pretty good chance but there is a chance his value at the end of march we look back and it's infinitely higher than it is now because if travis etn leaves if they don't sign one of the high profile backs and free agency then entering the nfl draft and that's another hurdle you have to get over but entering the nfl draft tootin will look incredible from the depth chart standpoint i think the worst case scenario here here is like you trade for him and he ends up as like the 1b the backup the change still has a role so for me i'm i'm fine investing in tootin just because there's some running backs you trade for and you're like this could be super sketchy like this could be a zero i feel so confident tootin is not going to be a zero so even if you don't get max return on your investment here you're probably still getting a valuable piece of the jaguars offense which obviously is a team we want to invest in right now um and then the upside case is he is the guy next year so i'm definitely in on him i think he's got the juice it's it's kind of weird that like he fits into this bucket with kyron and and crod and p ryan because they're both going to be the guy next year those guys don't profiles like explosive running backs they're all kind of volume based plotters but if you go back to virginia tech in his final season he was among the league leaders in breakaway rush rate like i think this guy's got the juice he was ahead of uh travion in that metric according to pff ahead of genti um rj harvey so i think he's got the juice if he has the touches to go with it so given the goal line role given the ability to contribute in the past game a little bit too i think by shaw tootin is one of my favorite players to trade for during this part of the dynasty offseason yeah it seemed like he did what they asked him to do as a fourth round rookie running back um only six percent of his runs went for 10 plus yards but we talk about that all the time like those things can flip in a year where it goes to eight percent nine percent and it changes a little bit so i think right now i'm willing to invest and by that i'm willing to throw a late second round pick and see if somebody will bite and or include him in a trade and just say like hey i could be wrong but i think you you mentioned it that's like at worst he's still part of a committee and i think he can be valuable yep i agree i'll throw out another running back i guess we're all trading for running backs now it's that time of year um it's it's the easier way to see a path forward like projecting wide receiver depth charts at this point is is even harder than the running back spot for sure which is why we always say you know bet on talent wide receiver and not that you shouldn't bet on talent at running back but also there's more opportunity based stuff here speaking of opportunity in carolina who knows man who knows what's going to happen with jonathan brooks but i think there's a window right now to find out for a very reasonable price i looked at keep trade cut to kind of just get a sense of where is he at in the market consensus was about rb 53 that's based off startup cost now if somebody has jonathan brooks on their roster they probably are aware of what's happening in carolina if you're in a pretty competitive league understanding look rico two pumps dallo who we love on this show is a free agent he came out immediately after their loss to the rams and kind of said you know i would love to go somewhere where i can be the bell cow essentially is i'm paraphrasing what he said so assuming he leaves then you have a depth chart with chuba who basically lost his job this year to rico and jonathan brooks and the thing with brooks is we don't know how good he is or isn't in the nfl because he's barely played right had the acl coming out of texas then had the second acl tear and now it's just complete unknown so i'm not going out and like aggressively targeting brooks as like a primary guy that i'm giving up assets for but i think he's one of those fun guys to include as part of a package trade i feel like if you go up to somebody you're like hey what's the cost for jonathan brooks and and you know these days somebody's gonna be like wait a minute what do you know so i feel like i have to almost kind of include him as a second piece of a trade but there's an opportunity here where he and chuba are kind of the one-two punch in carolina next year and obviously we know with dave canals they won around the football so we'll see on jonathan brooks health throughout the season and where he's at here but it's coming out of texas i think we all we're pretty big fans of his talent yeah i think he's an interesting acquisition mine are nasty and this first one i can't even believe i'm sharing it with you guys i i am shocked that you would ever type this person's name i was surprised because i'm a man of the people and even when i don't like a player i will admit when the situation is good and that player still does have talent this one is super speculation uh because he didn't play at all this year and we're not 100 sure why because the houston texas won't give us any information but don't forget that joe mixon is on that roster now i went and looked and there was actually some recent news of that's being posted as of like yesterday this is from a brian jones article who says uh the quote from demico ryan's when asked about joe mixon's health it was quote no clarity so that's not going to help this but the the reason i'm even bringing this up is because while woody marks had proved he belongs on an nfl field woody marks also was getting hurt on like every single game he to me of the of the day three producers is like i i would not ink in right now that woody marks is the starter for the houston texans next year he could be one of the day three guys that had the had a good season and then like hey thanks man but we're gonna go to someone else woody marks was not the plan joe mixon was the plan nick chubb was the backup plan and it was like well those plans fell through so we'll go to woody marks and woody marks did produce with his opportunity but when i'm looking at it if joe mixon is actually available again that's a big if because everything it's so weird guys it's so weird what's going on but if he comes back joe mixon i bet goes right back into being a bell for the houston texans which is a valuable role and then the second name all throughout which is not as nasty this is depth chart chasing uh oh you bet you're sharing some uh woody marks numbers with us will you share those well they're not very good um yeah he was he was pretty much a volume back down the stretch based off necessity and the numbers from a peripheral metric standpoint were not very good now the the rushing attack in houston in totality was not super efficient with the o-line concerns and some of that stuff but yeah he was 40th out of 44 running backs uh qualified running backs in yards per carry 33rd and explosive uh explosive rate 34th and success rate 44th and missed tackle rate you know he's not really a super talented runner i think is kind of the consensus leaves and so he is one of those guys that i certainly am trying to trade away and i i agree with what you're saying where it's like they look at this depth chart they rewind the tape from the season and they're like can we find an upgrade running back probably whether it's in free agency or the draft so he feels like a guy that his window to uh to sell in dynasty is closing somewhat quickly as the months go on yeah i'd be one fact go ahead kyle this weekend i was at my cousin's wedding and of all the players that people could have talked to me about i had someone come up to me like hey so what do you think about woody marks because this person went to mississippi state and so we ended up having a 20-minute conversation about woody marks how he fits in the nfl it was it was one of those things like i did not see this coming that's there you go uh what was that what was your friend's takeaway was it yes he saw him in college and thought he was better than what he could be in the pros you that was his unbiased and yet very biased thought so depth chart chasing breese hall is certain to leave the new york jets and go get himself a big bag of money braylon allen's the name we're going to bring up not because i'm sure that he's going to be a great player or because he's 18 or sure that he will be in fact the starter but it you know we had a pretty small snapshot at the beginning of the year before he at what he uh sprained his mcl i believe bets he had he had to have surgery on it yes so but oh so that he did have a full surgical repair but in terms of like stuff that could happen to your l's is that one brutal or we would expect him to be ready to go so it's not common to have your mcl repair because the blood supply there is so good but at times they do repair it when there's additional damage usually to the meniscus on the same side of the knee uh but relative to you know like what we've seen in the past from guys like giovante and some of those like acl plus plus types of things they're not going to be able to repair it Mm-hmm. This is certainly not on that spectrum. So I do expect them to be ready for training camp and enter the season close to 100%. But they were using both guys. Like Braylon Allen and Breece Hall, there was clearly a plan of we're going to have some thunder and some lightning with these two guys. So it's just remember, the Jets are going to be a dumpster fire next year. But they could also be one of the shocking teams. The way that they've talked about quarterback is, like, they might go trade for Kyler. And I don't know if Kyler Murray is truly the answer, but, you know, at least, hey, we have some hope here. So I think that the Jets are interesting to watch this off, seeing how they handle it. If they just fully pack it in and say, we'll see you guys in 2027, or do they start making some moves and building right now? And Braylon Allen, at least right now, would be the starter in my estimation. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. Are they a serious organization? Not usually. Yeah, they, no. I was thinking back, and this is not probably totally fair to Robert Sala, because he just got the Titans job. But I was thinking back to, like, what I remember of him as the Jets coach. And it almost felt like when they signed Rodgers for that, like, oh, this is the only thing we need. We're just missing Rodgers. Season, that obviously ended in disaster. It almost felt like there was, like, no coaching happening. Like, when you watch him on the sideline, he was just like, we did it. Like, we, this is it. So, he seems, he seems like a guy that I don't have a ton of confidence in as, like, a head coach. But, I mean, when you watch him on the sideline in San Francisco, and, like, his defensive players love him. He's a good DC. Yeah. Very, very good. So, that was just my little thing about the Jets and their serious organization, because it's like, just slap a band in. Like, get Rodgers. Problem solved. And, well, they're not solving problems. So, I would say they're more on the unserious side, Kyle, than the serious side. I mean, Tanner Engstrom, man. Yeah. I want them to be good. It's not, like, I have no ill will towards the organization or the people. It's just, you look back, and you're looking at all these head coaching changes. You're like, man, the Bills, the Ravens, the Steelers. Like, these are the franchises in the NFL that have this dang power. And the Jets are like, you know, I like what we got. I like what we got going on over here. Oh, man. They're trying. At least, I think they're trying. They are trying to do exactly what they've done. They're trying to try. They're trying to do exactly what they've done. For years and years. Yeah. Let's take a quick break, and we'll talk about some rookie tight ends. Just like what we did for the rookie quarterbacks, running backs, and wide receivers, we're going to spend an episode talking about the tight ends, because, really, I would say this might have been the best all-around year for rookie tight ends we've seen in a while. So, let's get into it. We're going to go by fantasy finish in the way that we're going to talk about these rookie tight ends. So, Harold Fannin, we're going to talk about Tyler Warren, Colston Loveland, talk about some Aranda Gadsen, maybe throw in a little bit of talk of Gunnar Helm, or maybe mention Mason Taylor. Maybe. Do we have to? He's a footy award winner. He is. That's true. They'll never be able to take that away from me. And then he will also never get it in the mail. It will be there forever. I found a stat where he led all tight ends. Oh. Footy awards? Yeah. In that one, he was put in motion on the highest percentage of his routes of all tight ends. Okay. So, that's nice. But he didn't do much with it. They just, they're like, let's send Mason on. And it didn't really matter. He's getting that cardio. That's one of the conversations. I think I want to start with is when we profile these players a year ago, when we looked at him, we did a whole episode on this podcast, looking at the prospects and where they get drafted, their production profile. This isn't to dunk on Mason Taylor. It's just for the game that we play, the things that we look at, what that's wants to dunk. It was more of like, how does this translate to the game we play? Right? Like it was that where a lot of the disconnect was and watching the film. Yeah. Yeah. It just of the, I, I either want to see Tyler Warren, Colston Loveland, Mr. Loveland, like just dominating, absolutely dominating people. Trey McBride. I want to see domination from be like a, being a good football player and, and you can physically do stuff like, or, or you're Harold Fannin and you're just getting fed the ball all the time. And you're for, you're, you're, you're making guys miss, right? It's like, Warren will go through you. Fannin will make you miss. And may it's like in the tape, Mason Taylor will do none of the above. So that was the, that was the issue of like in, in, you know, like Jack Ertz archetypes. So they can be very, very successful if they are put in a position for a ton of volume, which I will, I won't rule that out. Like I like talking crap about Mason Taylor's cause the bit is fun. And it has gone on all year long. There's a world where Mason Taylor's okay. And so I won't rule that out, but he is right now. We have our, we have our big three from, from this year. I thought it was interesting. Like just kind of thinking back to each of these player seasons, which we'll obviously talk about each of these guys in detail. I feel like they all kind of did what we thought they would do. You know, like people like when the NFL draft came, there was a lot of debate. Well, one of them did what we thought he was going to do best. Well, of course, Mike, I mean, look at that. He didn't do it. He didn't do it. He didn't do what Kyle thought he was going to do. Kyle. He didn't sleep a wink last night. They all did what we thought he was going to do. I got to talk about Colston Loveland. I can't wait to talk about it. Like Loveland was like the move tight end, super athletic, insanely good pass catcher. Okay. We saw that Tyler Warren is like insanely unique and he can do all these different things. He's insane after the catch. Okay. He did that dog breaks, tackles, like, and then you have all these things with fan. And it's like, well, we don't really know where he's going to fit, but he's like a fun player. Who's really efficient. What if they just get the ball in his hands? Good things probably will happen. That happened, right? Like all these things that you kind of thought entering the NFL draft cycle and in the regular season to some degree all happened for these guys based off their archetype. So it was a really good year. I thought for rookie tight ends, then you do have some fun late round kind of sleeper types and like Helm and Taylor and Ferguson. So it feels like the changing of the guard in some ways where like these older veteran tight ends are kind of slowly approaching, not where they were, obviously Kelsey will see and Kittle is coming off the Achilles and you have all these guys that are kind of slowly aging out. Now this is like the new crop of like the next elite tight ends. I think some of these guys are insanely valuable in dynasty. Yeah. We don't have to hang on to like, Oh God, what is TJ Hawkinson anymore? You know, cause that's dude, the, the relief that fantasy football players should have to be like, dude, I don't, I can let it go. I don't have to keep holding on to what Hawkinson is supposed to be. And so that's, that's great. That's great news for everybody. All right. Let's start with Harold Fannin. The Browns took him 67th overall in the third round. He finishes the tight end five and he didn't play week 18. So I didn't realize it was that high of a finish. 107 targets, 72 for seven 31 and six. He also added a rushing touchdown. And the quarterbacks he had to deal with, man. Yeah. Like Flacco. Like he was, he got bad Flacco. Then he got good Dylan Gabriel. Yeah, we got it. I think the best that we could see of Dylan Gabriel, I mean, and then should do her was just, it w it was, it was bad. Like the Sanders dialogue is tough of, can he improve TBD? But I can just, I can tell you what we saw and it was not a good quarterback. Yes. The thing going into the season with Fannin is this is a third round pick. So it was later than, you know, like Terrence Ferguson or Mason Taylor. And then in joke, who was there. So it was kind of one of those conversations of figuring out like, okay, is he kind of slowly brought along in week one? He had nine targets. He had a rush attempt. It was very clear early on. Like this guy can earn targets. And that was part of the production profile at Bowling Green was like this dude. Any way they can, they want to give him opportunities. He ended up second among all tight ends and targets per outrun. That's really awesome. 24% of Cleveland's receiving yards. And then all the stuff we talked about at four Smith's tackles. I was looking back at our notes. Last year we were saying this is like a boxer setting up his punches on the field when he gets the ball. So it was nice that all the things we saw in production profile in the film actually showed up in Cleveland. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And that first week too, was kind of the signal of like, dude, Fannin might be really good because it's like rookie tight ends. It's like the common thing in dynasty is like, yeah, it takes a little bit of time, you know, and that's kind of maybe not the norm anymore because you do have these talented rookies coming in. But like for a third round, rookie tight end from an NFL draft standpoint coming in and then being like the chess piece in the offense where it's like, dude, he just got to carry. Oh, they're lining them up in the backfield. Oh, now he's in line. Now he's out wide. You know, that stuff just does not happen for round three rookie tight ends in week one. So that's an extremely bullish signal. I will say it's, it's encouraging. And also like, I'm a little terrified for this next year. I think Kevin Stefanski is a very good scheming play caller with tight ends specifically. So I'm not sure what this looks, like with the new regime. We don't even really know who's going to be here in cleveland for the next you know play calling stint uh who's playing quarterback all those question marks but he is a player that i feel like if you can use him creatively figure out how to get him the ball in space good things happen and just from like a value standpoint when you think about dynasty what he just did knowing david and joku is the pending free agent assuming david and joku signs elsewhere his adp in the next three plus months will be skywriting as well so if you believe in harold fannin now is the time don't wait any longer because if we get that news on joku gone certainly his valuable spike mike any any final thoughts on fannin of just the he he was such a unique cat just a different guy like he's a tight end but he he doesn't move like a tight end he doesn't move like he's too he's too big to be a wide receiver and and do the things that they did but the when he got i can just imagine when he got into camp and you're like it's like i mean who are on the browns right the wide receivers and then then fannin gets out there and he starts moving and you're like well fannin's our best player i like it it was nice for them to at least admit it really really quick that it's like jerry judy jerry judy's not that guy man cedric tillman is a fun boundary wide receiver but he's not he's not going to do that he's not going to do that take over and so it was nice to see but again the i agree bets that if you're in you should probably get in now because i think things are going to go up um but it is he's a dangerous player like of with the instability everywhere going into next year i think it's it's dangerous and really hoping that it's not just the the one oh hey guys you remember the harold fannin remember that rookie year year of his career i that would be that would be a shame for what we we saw on film the best part is among this group we're going to talk about i i keep thinking that he's just a much older prospect that just got a ton of production like he's 21 and a half years old so he's still super young there is a lot of volatility with this team even judkins getting injured but it's rare to see a rookie much less a rookie tight end lead the team in first read targets that's just not normal so he was the dude uh most receptions ever for a tight end before turning 22 years old so more than kyle pitt's rookie year most receptions ever and between warren loveland and fannin he's going to be the cheapest right now if you want to acquire them is that where you're saying that yeah but he's also the scariest i agree with that yeah he's he's a really polarizing guy because there's so many positives when you look at kind of his entire season and everything coming out of bowling green but there's also part of me that's like you know i don't know if i'm going to be a you know if you some people play this game with they just draft the guys they really like and they hold on to them for a while like that's totally fine there's no right or wrong way to play dynasty there's other people who love to play it as like a market-based game right where it's like sell high buy low all these things i would not be surprised if in like redraft circles harold fannin's price gets to that like tight end four or five ish range and you look back in august and you're like that feels pricey and then we get to the end of the season you're like that was pricey just the overall kind of systemic so he's a he's a talented player no doubt but i wouldn't be surprised if his career is not like a straight line of improvement forever like it might kind of have some ups and downs along the way so even though you might need to invest highly in him to get him now i wouldn't be shocked if in a year we're like you know it's a little down season in cleveland again fannin regressed a bit the scheme just didn't fit him you know stuff like that i could very well see those conversations happening i could also see him just being like oh he's just that good and he's been a very valuable piece so if you got him in like the third round of some of your rookie drafts which i know a lot of people did i have got him a bunch of places because he was so cheap i'm at least willing to listen to offers in my league if somebody is interested in uh you know and just kind of turning that over and improving on your stock there but yeah really fun player really talented i think what we're all saying is he's good but there's some systemic concerns around the situation for sure in our dino junior league that the three of us all play in i had a decision in the third round i think it was 305 306 between mason taylor and harold fannin and i went back and forth like oh god my heart says i never want to pick mason taylor but he was picked in the second round and i went back and forth and where did i end up where did where did my heart go i don't even i don't remember i took i took fannin okay because i was after you and i was praying you took mason taylor and then i got on the clock and i said hey everyone this pick cannot be more for sale come get the jets starting tight end and i did i didn't love him do you think that fannin is worth a late first round pick that's what it's going to cost i think okay that's that's kind of where i had him pegged that's pricey it's pricey but would you say that in 2026 when you do when you stat out your projections mike for the browns he's probably going to have 100 targets and maybe be first or second on the team in target share yeah i would i would imagine that'll be the case but who where where's the target pie who's who's bacon it's probably doodoo it was doodoo this year too i mean they're talking about watson again which is yeah good good good thing he was really really good before the uh achilles injury i feel like we should like i i have stats that come up comparing watson in his texans years we should like he should have a different name for the last five years i mean he became voldemort for the cleveland browns he should get it changed um let's go to tyler warren he finished as tight in 7 17 games 112 targets he went 76 for 8 17 and 4 he also had a rushing touchdown here are all the rookie tight ends that have had 75 catches and over 800 receiving yards in the same season brock bowers sam laporta tyler warren end of list so the worst part about warren is that through the first seven weeks you thought this is it yeah this is the dude and then post danny dimes it was not great he averaged 27 receiving yards per game after daniel jones was injured he was kind of what they drafted him to be this chess piece this you know this guy yards after the catch i feel like he did exactly what we said he was going to do is just the end of the season was so bad that you're kind of trying to figure out what he is in the future so bets i know you're a penn state guy i know you saw him function in that offense and yet going to the pros it felt like he was still like the number one read on a ton of plays yeah i feel like it's so unfair to to both players with i know because it's going to always be the conversation loveland warren they were the 1a 1b in this class who do you answer is yes all those things i agree the answer is yes but loveland's right answer um but but the unfortunate thing is he got off to such a hot start we talked about this with the buka right uh a show or two ago yeah i was thinking back to the you know we'd do a we looked back at rookie drafts in whatever week it was like week six or i don't know something like that yeah and we're like okay if if the draft were happening today what does it look like it's like a book is the one-on-one and then i think i took warren at like four or five that sounds right and and i i that feels not as great right now but honestly i think that if you have tyler warren do not be disappointed at all in the second half i guess don't carry that disappointment forward it sucked that it happened but to have a player at his age year one come out and truly dominate uh for half a season before the the entire cold season fell apart like jonathan taylor was not anywhere close he was for for fantasy football if you were on that ride just the whole team it went went under um so i i would be very very optimistic for tyler warren there is i saw some recent chatter that the team you know i don't know exactly where it's coming from but there's now whispers of do does this team need to move michael pittman and you're like i i assume that's a because so we can get some cash to get alec pierce back because he's such a unique weapon for the the scheme like michael pittman can't do what alec pierce does but but like if i if pittman is moved and they keep pierce holy warren targets man like warren and pittman are kind of competing in the same area of the of the field if pittman is no longer there to demand targets tyler warren might see 26 27 percent of the targets for sure yeah that's a great point and he was like it's it's so easy to like you said just kind of look back at like the last month or two where it was just not good i mean quite frankly 3.5 catches 26 yards a game it's irrelevant in fantasy but if you look at what happened before dana jones got hurt stew was a legit difference maker at tight end and we just talked about that with warren guys don't come in as rookies and just dominate right away tyler warren did he's very very good specifically with the ball in his hands and i trust shane steichen to continue to get find ways to get him the ball in his hands especially if there's no pittman for the rpo type type stuff that he gets i think tyler warren could have a monster year two here for sure um definitely showed everything you're looking for with him and obviously loveland's the hotness right now but don't forget about tyler warren he's he's an awesome player and so after the bye week, it was seven targets, four, six, six, nine, five, and eight. I mean, this was a, let me get them. It was a 21. He still had a 21% target share after the bye week. So this was the quality of his targets went away. It evaporated. The volume was still there. And in fantasy football, that's, I mean, that, that's the thing that we lay our head on at night is, Oh, I've got some volume. So as long as that didn't disappear, just the efficiency and quality that go, that ebbs and flows, but you got to have that locked in volume and you're, it's going to be great for Warren. One of the things that I tracked with this group was how did they score their fantasy points per quarter? And if you were a Tyler Warren manager, you felt the first half was gold. And then what happened in the second half of games? Cause 62% of his fantasy points came in the first half of games. He was dominating in the first quarter. There was a period where he was leading all tight ends, even Trey McBride in first quarter fantasy points. Then it evaporated. And a second, we'll talk about Loveland, who's the exact opposite of him. So they're very different players in that regard, how they scored. My last question for Warren is, and this is sad that I'm putting him here. Does he go the TJ Hawkinson route where he's for like five years? Or, or does he join the elites? Because like TJ Hawkinson in terms of value was always kind of seen as a top five tight end for a long time. Value wise, season wise, he had a couple of really good years, but then it kind of trailed off and you're like, Oh, it's TJ Hawkinson. Or does he join the elite? Because his profiles kind of always matched Trey McBride as like the bigger tight end. That's the chain mover. So if you were to bet right now, I feel like I'm betting more that he'll just be in that Hawkinson really good, but not elite group. I'm just putting it based on the math, man. Have you seen the right side of this? You know what he's saying? The answer is Fanon. We know that. He's saying the answer is Colston Loveland. He's just not saying it out loud. Welcome Kyle. Welcome to the right side of the argument. Colston Loveland is not Trey McBride. No. It took till year four for TJ Hawkinson to pass 800 receiving yards. And that is what Tyler Warren did in his rookie year. So I will not, I will currently not stand for that. I agree. Okay. But my other question was, does he become elite? I, I lean that he does. Yeah. I think so too. I think when you have a tight end that's drafted where he is, and I know a lot of people have the same argument with Hawkinson, right? And Eric, he bronze of the world and yada, yada. Yeah. But the way that he fits, I think in today's game is perfect, especially with his current situation and play caller that you worry about these guys that are like pretty volume dependent. Like obviously we love volume and fantasy, but like with Zach Ertz over the years and Hawkinson and some of these guys, like you need seven, eight targets to even be relevant for like a tight end 12 weekly score. Warren is such a good player with the ball in his hands that if for some reason it's not a super high target game, he can still get there in fantasy. They'll still use them around the goal line, all those sorts of things. So I do believe he will level up and I think he will be an awesome, awesome player to have for the next handful of seasons. If you go by the kind of the, the, the dogma belief approach, like targets are earned. You have to be out there getting open, hitting your assignments, getting the trust of the quarterback, and then you're going to get targets. Like Tyler Warren year one was 21% of the targets. Hawkinson didn't see more than 20% of the targets till his, till year one. So I think he's going to be an awesome player. I think he's going to be an awesome player. I think let's have a conversation, boys. Let's talk about it. Because yes, people want to paint a Warren or Loveland. And, you know, that's fine. I have both of them. So I like both of them. Loveland for the first seven, eight weeks of the season. What was y'all's impression? I mean, it was really, really slow playing this. That was the main thing is like, how are they going to utilize this player? Not is this player good, but they have yet to utilize this player in any thought, in any way that warrants him being the 10th overall pick. And they kind of did that with Burden too. I still feel like they didn't do it enough with Burden at the end of the year, where they could have been on the season more. So weeks one through eight, he scored 17 total fantasy points. That was fewer than Jeremy Ruckert. He was also coming into the season hurt. Yes. I think that my point was saying Ben Johnson figured out something. And also, if you want to look at the games, when did it get figured out? It was week nine. It was against the Bengals. If there's a matchup to get to figure it out, it is the Bengals. And then from then on, you saw the targets for outrun. You saw the production. You saw him essentially be their wide receiver one or two. I want to make sure that the context for Colson Loveland is that the way he runs his routes, it was the second highest percentage of out wide routes of any tight end. So he's playing different than any other tight end out there. The playoff ISO'd on the outside, runs an out route, scores a whatever two-yard touchdown. Was that a two-point conversion, I think. Okay, a two-pointer. Sorry, sorry. But into the end zone regardless. It's like how many tight ends in the league are even getting an opportunity like that? Okay, you're out wide. You're by yourself, man. Like that's Jimmy Graham stuff. That's very exciting. He's on the line. Had to have it dialed up for a rookie tight end. I kind of think it tells you all you need to know about what Ben Johnson thinks of what he has in Colson Loveland. And you talked about it, Kyle, with the ability to line up out wide. Sometimes in fantasy we think, okay, this is going to be great. But then you get this weird middle ground where it's like you're not really a tight end and you're not really good enough to be a wide receiver. So now you're out there, but you're not winning on routes. That is not the case with Colson Loveland. He is winning on these routes and they keep giving it to him in those situations. So he is. He is the chess piece for Ben Johnson. He's going to unlock, I think, the true way Caleb puts it all together in year three. Because year one, you had the growing pains, inaccurate, taking a lot of sacks. Year two, didn't take as many sacks, still inaccuracy issues, but the incredible moments from Caleb Williams. If you can just put the easy stuff around the incredible moments, like Caleb Williams can just be unbelievable next year. And to me, the way that that happens is Colson Loveland, the focal point of the offense, moving forward. So yeah, I mean, Kyle, I know that you told everybody that Colson Loveland would be Mike Kosicki. You know, we don't forget that. That's exactly how I said it. That's exactly how you said it. But no, he's. These two guys, Warren and Loveland, I really, really am so excited about both these guys. I will say, I feel like Loveland's price, I don't know what it is in startups right now. I worry it gets to a point where it's like. How is. He has to be the tight end three. That's what I'm saying. If you want Loveland in a startup this offseason, get ready. Get ready to spend up. And that makes you a little uneasy, but if you took him in a rookie draft last year, you've got to be just so, so excited. What if I. Yes. Matthew Betts, what if I told you I've been to three straight title games in the Ballers' main dynasty league? One, two of the three. My starting tight end. Don't tell us about your tight ends. My starting tight end is Trey McBride. And Colson Loveland's just on my bench. He's just there, bro. Is this a four-man league? No, it is not. It feels like. It feels like it sometimes. Man. So in that scenario. Kai was in the championship game. Would you. We had Tucker Craft. He just didn't join us. So if that is somebody out there that has like two elites, would you consider trading Trey McBride knowing that you have Loveland? If you could flip him for like an elite wide receiver or something? I would say I would be open to it, but more than likely, I would just keep the two of them. Like, lock up pure domination at the tight end position. You know, injuries aside, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like, lock up true pure domination for the next four or five years between those two guys. It's pretty good. But my running backs are Christian McCaffrey and Derek Henry, so, no. Might need a young running back here at some point. I'm going to give you a couple other contextual numbers for him because in the playoffs, you know, it got turned up a notch. That won't. It won't show up on the stat sheet in the same way. Two yards per outrun in the regular season is seventh best among rookie tight ends over the last 15 years. And then the number that you felt it watching the Bears games all year was like, the first two drives, oh, okay, that was pretty good. What happened for the next 10 drives? Yeah. That's always what happened. And then, in the fourth quarter, you saw all those crazy comebacks. 42% of his fantasy points came in the fourth quarter. That was among the highest of all tight ends. He had the most receiving yards in the fourth quarter of any tight end. And I only say that because year to year, fourth quarters fluctuate based on, if your team's winning, a lot of times, guess what they're doing? They're kneeling the ball. They're running. running out the clock. In other times, your team doesn't have to come back and they put up the points in the first and second quarter. Just saying those are all volatile. I don't think any of us are saying the Bears are going to repeat with the same number of fourth quarter comebacks or their defense is going to be as volatile. Their defense might be better and they might cause fewer turnovers. I know Betts and I have kind of talked about this off the air of like the Bears next year will have a first place schedule. They will have all the expectations. They'll probably have nine and a half, 10 win total. And year to year, those things change. He's probably going to start earning targets in the first and second quarter differently. Like this year, his first free target share in the first quarter was 13%. That was like as good as Zaccheaus on the team. Eventually they figured out how to use him. Yeah. I mean the, so you had four straight games to end the year with 10 or more targets. I mean, that's, that's absurd. That is absurd. Betts, any, any final thoughts? I would just like to point out that he is the first rookie tight end ever in a playoff game to have eight plus catches in a hundred yards. So seems good. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about Aranda Gadsden because there was a moment for about a month where you're like, this is the hottest thing. This is the best thing. He burned real bright. You, you, the, the Herb bros were coming out. They're like, Justin Herbert, he's got his new guy. Yeah. Week six through week nine. Oh baby. What a time to be alive. Just, just to give you a number, 377 receiving yards in those four games. That's the most ever for a tight end, a rookie tight end. Crazy. So, and that was really it. The rest, the rest of the season, he had a little blip in week 17, but other than that, you're kind of chasing those performances, chasing the down the field targets. And he was just kind of used differently. Like a lot of his routes, 46, percent of them were posts goes or crossers. That's very different than a lot of other tight ends. It's a lot of down the field stuff and a lot of volatile things. I think chasing what that is next year or the year after is probably stupid. It's more of like, I have value if you have him, which I do have him on a couple of teams. And if somebody thinks that he's a locked in top 10 tight end, I'm willing to trade him. It's just, I feel like we're always going to have that conversation with the chargers. Is it lad huge? Trey Harris coming in this year. Keenan's going to live forever. Like that's always going to be the conversation. I think in fantasy, the conversation we're having with this stuff is like, no, you look back at the end of this next upcoming season. When we have this conversation in a year reviewing the top tight ends, the guys that are in the top that are the true difference makers are the guys that can either be first on their team and targets or second, like, are you the offense? Can you be a true difference maker? Trey McBride, the Kelsey elite years. We it's hard to see it with Gadsden. It doesn't mean you won't have value, but you're just like you said, lads there, Quentin Johnston, they've got all these names. Um, I get a Morgan Hampton here back with a healthy offensive line. And we know that they want to run the football. He feels like a guy that I would love to have on a roster and love to like draft as like a tight end two in startups and have my bench and feel totally fine plugging him in on a good matchup or something like that. But it's kind of hard to see him turning into like a true dominant difference maker. Although I will say we kind of joked, like he did flash that ability for a small part of the season. So we know it's in there a really good player, really athletic. So definitely a guy I want on my roster, but definitely not somebody that I'm like chasing and startups this off season. The, I don't have all the raw numbers in front of me, but my, you know, just doing some, having watched the games and doing then, you know, the, now the retrospective box score hunting of when he, that three game stretch, it was 79. So the week before it happened, what? He had eight targets. He was seven for 68, you know, before the big, big game, but 75% of the snaps, 79, 77, 80%. And then that dropped down to 52 the next week. Um, and then it kind of fluctuated, but it really started to sit in, in more of that high fifties, low 60 about averaging about that. And it's their offensive line was just so destroyed at this point that, I mean, where are we? Getting blocking tight ends on the field more than Gadsden, because that's just that we have to have it. And so if the, the theory of both tackles come back, they're both healthy and ready to go. This offensive line becomes an elite unit and Gadsden is then free to be a move tight end. I just, I see an outcome where that is, it is a possibility. Yeah. Their, their offense is hard to understand I love Herbert. And I know Mike's been mentioned that like, I love Herbert as a thrower of the football. I think he, it looks beautiful. He is very aesthetically pleasing. If you like watching quarterbacks. Yes. When it's right, it looks awesome. However, there are times where they turtled up and they said, Hey, we're just going to run the ball because we literally cannot block anyone. And it'd be a, you know, a Vidal game or whatever, but his role is just going to always feel volatile to me in terms of the type of player he is in the downfield targets. But it is nice to see it's rare to see a tight end like this, that was drafted in the fifth round, all of a sudden have these kinds of breakout games. So we're not saying trash them or anything. We're just saying if people are valuing him as a top 10 guy, it's okay to cash out. But you know, you got them off the scrap heap. Nobody was sitting around saying you have to draft it. Rhonda Gadsden as a fifth round player. So I think the interesting names that I want to bring up gunner helm one real quick, Kyle. So you, you have a screenshot here. This is, the values posted from keep trade cut. They got, they got Gadsden at nine. Like, is this the ADP stuff? This is, this is what, this is why we use keep trade cut as a proxy to what people might be feeling. I don't think value is the right way to look at this because it's people voting based on here's three players and here's where it ends up. And certain players are more popular. Um, but yes, based on their aggregated rankings, he said, I would not rank him. I bring that up because behind him one spot, George Kittle, which that now makes sense. Like Kittle never tears his Achilles. There's no chance on him. Even 32 year old. I'm putting him behind Gadsden, but that one. Okay. But then you have Jake Ferguson and Dalton Kincaid is like, really? Hmm. I don't know that I would prefer Gadsden to those two guys. Do you think Gadsden's worth like a second? Um, maybe I get, I mean, if your target is the tight end position, like that's what you're really hoping to get with your second round pick, then it's probably more savvy to go after a player who's actually already flashed on the NFL field versus going back into the, it might be a boat scenario. So in, in that I can see it being the case. I think it's worth a second. I guess, but other than that, I don't really want to spend a second for Gadsden. A third is perfectly fine, but two is a little rich. I think the price is probably you're in your draft. You're at the 207, 208 and you go, I think I'd rather have Gadsden than whatever I'm shooting for with these rookie picks. But that's, that's probably where the price is. Um, Gunner Helm is a player at the end of the year, kind of flash for the Titans fourth round pick. He was targeted on 23% of his not a ton of routes, 230, but like, that's pretty good for a rookie Titan to be involved. Now the offense was so bad that they needed pass catchers. But I think the bigger conversation is about Chigga Conquo being a free agent and they're going to have a new offensive regime. We don't know who the offensive coordinator is, but I think he's one of those cheap buy low add in a trade type of players that has room to be like, like I hate saying it, but like there's room for players to have their guys that kind of end up getting 90 to a hundred targets. For sure. Yeah. And, and sometimes having those guys in your roster, never, you don't show people you're like, look at this sick roster I have, but those guys you can plug in, in the right matchup and get you the Titan eight score on a week and you move on and you play matchups. Like that's kind of what I see with Gunner Helm as a potential possibility moving forward. Now he's a fourth round rookie. We're just hired a defensive minded head coach. We'll see. But as like a cheap startup piece, or if you have him on a roster, like definitely do not cut this guy, snag him or keep him as like your tight end two or three and kind of see what happens. He's a fun guy to keep. And there's some leagues too, that you can do like taxi squads for year one and year two players. Perfect guy to have on the end of your bench. All right. Mason Taylor. Now we're talking. We, we joke about not forcing missed tackles. He also had the second worst drop rate among all tight ends. So Mason, you're not helping your cause buddy. That's not good. However, he's incredibly young. He saw 63 targets. Is there room for this guy to end up, you know, have room? Possibly. I'll say that I'll throw it out there. It's possible. What, what is the death chart? Garrett Wilson, um, Eddie Mitchell, Garrett Wilson sealed his fate when he took all the money. Um, yeah. And then it's like, okay, well I guess Adonai Mitchell's the guy, you know, Not me. John Mechie. Mechie. Robert. Meacham. That is not the right name. You said Meacham. No, I did not. So, you know, when it comes to players like Mason Taylor, that's where I'm looking of, is there any way that this depth chart shakes out that this person can rise to be the number two target earner? If that is a resounding no, then I'm completely out. If I can tell myself that story and I can sort of believe it every once in a while on certain days, then, okay, now there's value. I'll keep him on my bench. It's interesting. His draft capital, he was taken in second round, 40th overall. And then Terrence Ferguson, these guys were taken ahead of Fanon. Ferguson was 46 overall, and he was like the fourth tight end on his own depth chart. He had all the deep targets. Like, he had the most in the NFL of any tight end, 20-plus area targets. But most of them aren't catchable. I don't know. He's a fun name. I think he's kind of interesting. Like, the Rams, man, this is just another tip of the cap to Sean McVay, where he's always trying to stay ahead of things. All of a sudden, Sean McVay, who was the king of the 11 personnel, right? I mean, we had the Robert Woods, Cooper Cup, and then whoever. Brandon Cooks for a little bit. Yeah. Whoever their third guy was at the time. They were the high flyers. And now they have flipped that on their head, and their tight ends are getting a whole bunch of targets. So, Ferguson is, I don't know. I think that he is, I think he's more interesting than Mason Taylor. Like, what is, is Tyler Higbee still on this roster next year? Like, is there, is it, does it get condensed to Parkinson and Ferguson? I don't know. Yeah. So, looking right now at Spotrack, they have Higbee as a void year in his deal currently. So, they could bring him back if they want to. We'll see. But outside of that, obviously, if they do bring him back, Higbee's on a one-year deal this year, or he's gone. Davis Allen is gone after this year, and so is Colby Parkinson. So, I think Ferguson's my favorite of this kind of secondary group cost-adjusted piece to go get, unless he comes out this weekend and, you know, blows up and has an amazing game and then cats out of the bag. But he's, he has the athleticism. He has the athletic profile. I remember he crushed the combine. He was a big riser in that second-round NFL draft pick. Didn't do a ton in his rookie year, but you kind of understand why. Missed time for the injury, too. So, he's one of those guys that I think has the best, if everything hits, scenario for him out of this guy, out of him, Taylor, Gunnar Helm, Gadsden types. Like, I think Ferguson, for me, is my favorite cost-adjusted piece to go get right now. And you saw it in the playoff game. They had a couple of shots deep where they were designed deep targets. Yeah, that's what I was going to point out. It was Ferguson's final two games of the regular season. He, you know, it worked out for fantasy because he scored in both, but four targets in both of those games. Gets hurt, misses some time, and then he plays in that Chicago game that just happened, and he had five targets. One for night, like, that's the type of stuff you're trying to find, where there's an imbalance of cost, right, of people would point. Oh, he had one catch for 19 yards. Look a little deeper than that. He had five targets. And Kyle, you said he had some deep shots called up for him. So, how are they actually using that player? Maybe it didn't connect right there. If it connects, then the cost of Terrence Ferguson is, we're not talking about him like that in just literally one game. So, he's interesting to me. Sean McVay's funny because his first ever draft pick in the second round was Gerald Everett. That's right. Remember for years, we were trying to make that happen, and then he takes Ferguson here. It's an interesting draft cost for a player that, like, fits a very specific role for the team, deep threat, tight end, while they also have a couple others. And then over time, they can just figure that out because we kind of trust Sean McVay. That's going to do it for this episode. Over the next month, we will be talking all things rookies, prospects, getting you ready for Super Bowl Sunday launch of the Ultimate Draft Kit Plus. We'll talk to you again soon. Goodbye. Thanks for listening to the Fantasy Footballers Dynasty Podcast. If you want to take your dynasty skills to the next level, check out thefantasyfootballers.com.