Roman Aqueducts

podbeam your message amplified ready to share your message with the world start your podcast journey with podbeam podbeam the AI powered all-in-one podcast platform record edit optimize publish distribute thousands of businesses and enterprises trust podbeam to launch their podcasts launch your podcast on podbeam today. TANG LUCK Tired of staring at the ceiling on your daily commute? Play hundreds of fun games on TANG LUCK. Turn your spare minutes into winning moments and redeem real rewards along the way. No purchase necessary. Download TANG LUCK NOW. Picture a back alley. Two in the morning. No one around. Not a shortcut alley. Not an alley you cut through on your way somewhere. The kind of alley that has been forgotten. Broken concrete. A dumpster rusted through. A door that has not opened in 30 years. Refeedy that nobody bothered to photograph because nobody thought it was worth photographing. A place the city walked past and decided it did not count. Now picture a man standing in it alone with a camera that is older than most marriages and a set of lights. He's not rushing. He's not looking over a shoulder. He is not waiting to be somewhere else. He sets up. He opens a shutter. And then he stands there. Sometimes for 30 minutes. Sometimes for 90. And he lights that forgotten place. Like it is the inside of a church. Then he packs up and he goes home. And two nights later he does it again. He did that for 25 years. And nobody knew why. Not even him. Not for a very long time. The spirit talk show bedtime stories for grown-ups. My guest today is Xavier, N.S. For 25 years, Xavier spent his nights in dangerous alleys and abandoned ruins across more than 30 cities. Armed with a 50-year-old, hassle-blad camera and a set of lights, he made long exposure boat photographs in complete darkness. Painstaking luminous images that took the places everyone ignores and turned them into something that glows. 1200 nights, 250 photographs, exposures sometimes lasting 90 minutes standing completely alone in places most people would not stop a car in. He had guns pointed at him. He was chased by gangs and every single time he went back. The New York Times called the work a masterpiece. PBS said you will never see a dark alley the same way again. His photographs have hung in the museums and galleries internationally, the Illinois State Museum, the Marin Museum of Contemporary Art, the San Diego Art Institute. His work lives in permanent collections on multiple continents. He built a serious, acclaimed career on the back of these images. And for nearly all of it, he kept the real story to himself. Because here is what was actually happening. In 1987, something broke inside Xavier. He describes it as his brain snapping. And after that ordinary life, a grocery store, a conversation, a room full of people became almost unbearable. His nervous system could not hold it. He saw more than a dozen clinicians. None of them had the right map. The diagnosis that would eventually make sense of what happened to him did not exist yet in any manual anyone was using. But the alleys were different. The ruins were different. The dangerous, forgotten, two in the morning places. Those were the only environments where something in him went quiet. Where he could breathe. Where he was inexplicably completely at ease. So he kept going back, not because he understood why, just because his body knew the difference. He did not realize until he sat down to write the book that what he had been doing out there alone in the dark for a quarter of a century was healing himself. The he had accidentally invented a form of therapy and practiced it with the devotion of a monk long before he had any language for what it was. That book is called Alley's and Ruins. It is a part photographic memoir, part redemption story, part the quiet and devastating account of a man who built something extraordinary out of the rubble of what he lost and kept the real reason hidden for decades. There is a line from the book I cannot stop thinking about. He says in every photograph the subject matter says run and the light says stay. That might be the most beautiful description of healing I have ever read. Thank you so much for coming on while your work is indescribable. I can't see that I know as a kid I used to walk down these alleys in my hometown and I always thought they were beautiful but people didn't go there and to see your art that somebody really captured the beauty and the light that you grab there and you know and it's just like a different planet I'm looking at your art is like a different planet. My goal was to I'm sorry about my voice I know it's my voice is is often rough and it's it's part of it's actually part of my my story. But I I try to transform rough scary places into luminous theater sets. They're almost a almost an escape hatch from reality. I have a history where in 1987 I walked into a job interview and and I was asked my name and I couldn't answer the question. My my brain basically snapped at that moment. I had I had a my nervous system broke down and and I have never been the same since. It's it's an odd story with so before this before this happened I was a very outgoing very friendly guy tons of friends. And I was an aspiring artist with a very confident in my future thinking life was mine for the taking. And I had I had been pursuing my art for over six years at that point and creating a very very specific body of work very luminous very beautiful very positive and this crash basically turned my brain into something that could no longer create those photos. And I mean I just couldn't be around people anymore one of the most jarring moments was when I I had to move back home with my parents because I I didn't want my friends to see this basically this monster that had taken over my my body. I didn't want anyone to see this radically new version of me so I moved back home and my mom has always been one of the most kind of loving people ever. And and I walked in she was she was washing some dishes we have a Spanish background so she in Spanish she's you know she asked me in her very sweet way are you hungry. And and the terror just consumed me again like my my system was so damaged that I had become afraid of like the most harmless loving person in my my life. Did you did you want a name that the diagnosis that you got like it was a natural diagnosed. So when this happened there what what I had there was no diagnosis there there was no there was no there was no remedy it didn't even have a name. It does now it's complex PTSD. It for those who don't know what that is it's a it's a form of PTSD. but instead of one horror movie. incident, you know, watching your friends die in front of you or something like that, complex PTSD is, it's typically developmental trauma. So it's, for 17 years, I lived in a situation where it was sort of constant acid rain on the sole constant acid rain on my nervous system. You know, death by a thousand paper cuts and it, it, but on top of that, I had developed a very happy, outgoing life, except it was, it was on top of a very, very fragile system, which eventually broke. And I, I fell through a trap door and, and into a different world. And, and for years, I just did, I didn't know what to do. My, my photography vision was, was smashed. I couldn't see the photos that I used to. My, my dreams of being an artist basically had been thrown into a black hole. And so for six years, I, I just started to feel like homelessness was, was a possible future for me. I couldn't even go to, to a grocery store to buy a loaf of bread. The thought of, you know, facing, facing a cashier had, had, had my heart hammering in my neck. But what happened? I mean, it's a series of, the series of miracles. I'm sorry, I dropped, I, is there a train? Is there a train passing your house or is there an air conditioner close to your microphone? Because I'm getting some interference every minute. Something that sounds like your air conditioner comes on or a train comes fast or is there a train? There is a train, but I'm surprised you, you hear it. You're the first, first one to hear it. Well, it sounds like it passed every, probably about a minute, it comes past maybe every, like, like five minutes, no? Yeah, I think it passes every five, five, eight minutes. I mean, it's not your, but I thought maybe you had an air conditioning that you had on that you could turn off. But oh, so let's talk about your, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm sorry, you in the flow, but I wanted to make sure we got, we didn't miss any good stuff. So, this is, you said this, this was complex or developed over, and I don't want to spend the time talking about your, like I definitely want to talk about your art, but definitely, I know this is something of interest too. But there's something that you're in a situation that was toxic, was it work or relationship situation that you were this toxic, and then over time it built up until it just snapped. That's what you're. Yeah, I mean, I can try to lay out, you know, the rough framework. I, my parents were immigrants from Spain. We moved to Montreal in 1960, I was born in 65, and my dad got a job in a small town in, in Quebec, just as, Quebec separatism exploded. And, and there, there was, it was, it was, so the French had been second class citizens in their province for, for a century, and suddenly they had political power. They, they had dreams of having their own country, and there was constant information on the, you know, they were constantly being fed that the anglos and immigrants were the enemy, and if not for them, everything would be fine. So, we ended up in a small town where children of immigrants were maybe one in a thousand. So, it was 17 years of growing up in that little town. Wow, okay. And I, you know, I should mention, I do have, how are you in the room with me? And he does, I'll play a spaniel. But, but Mexicans, Spanish, because, I mean, it's from Mexico. I don't know, how different is Mexican Spanish than Spanish? Oh, I mean, the, the, the accent is very different for sure, yeah. But, how are you? Yeah. Well, my, my, my oldest friend, as a girl who I was friends with since, since we were five is Mexican, and, and I grew up hanging around with their family, I, I, I think I speak fluent Mexican. Well, good, good. I don't think how he does. Even though, you know, his, his, your mom speaks fluent, you better Spanish than, no, I was born in the United States. I mean, I understand what you were born in Spain. I was a figure. My oldest brother was born in Spain. We moved to Canada when he was five, and I, I was born a couple of years later. So, I'm an immigrant too. I'm from Ireland. And yes, I know, I know, you know, when I was a kid, a lot of kids would come over from Spain for the summer to, to stay with us and learn English, not being to Spain. I love that I've been to Barcelona and Stigious Beach, and I'm going back here, I think next year. So, Spain is beautiful. It's, but it's a little, a little warm in summer for me. I'm kind of an Irish white boy. So, so let's talk about, I really want to talk about your art. So, the lighting in your art is extraordinary. Like these, like these forgotten places, you almost make them look like sacred places. So, how did you learn to, like, how do you learn to light them in that way? And, and what were you trying to say with the light in these pictures? Like where, because you, there's something with the light, for sure. So, this is the point in, in the story where six years after my crash, one, one night I picked up my camera and tripod, thinking that my, my dreams of being an artist are pretty, pretty much over, but I'm still, you know, clinging on. And, and I walked out, and if I saw people I would walk in a different direction, and a few more of those encounters, and I ended up where people don't hang out in the middle of the night, which is in a sketchy part of town, at the, at the head of a, of a dark, unlit alley. And, and I just stepped inside, and immediately I became calm. The darkness was like this warm healing blanket to me, the city sounds just became quiet. And, immediately I knew I had found a kind of home, which was dangerous urban corners. My psychological terror had been replaced by physical danger, and I was a trade off that I was perfectly willing to accept. And so I was basically fearless in the alleys, and, but put me in a dinner party, and I would be, and I would panic. So, so I went into these places, at first expecting to photograph ugly pictures, because that's kind of what I, that's how I felt inside, that's how I, that's what I thought would be an honest photo. And, and when I looked at the images the next day, I was kind of shocked, because not only had I created ugly photos, but I had also created beautiful photos, luminous photos, that, that had a common thread with, with my early work, before the, the crash. It took me years to, to finally realize that my two visions were, were merging in this place where I could, where I could be relaxed. And so, I started to lean into, into the beauty of these images. gradually bringing more and more lights, creating, you know, in the final years, the images I was creating were designed like theater sets, so I could go into a ruin in the middle of Detroit at midnight, and just lighted up during very long exposures using a 50-year-old Hasselblad film camera, which required extremely long exposures because these were very, very dark places, so 30, 40-minute exposures, and during that time, dressed in black, I would walk around in front of the camera with lights in my hands, lighting these spaces, lighting them to make them beautiful. And again, the psychology is a big part of this whole story, so I had found places that looked to me the way that I felt inside, and by lighting them and making them beautiful, I was creating a new story. And I knew how good I felt every night that I did that. I went to sleep like a baby, and so it became a complete obsession, even addiction, and I kept going for 25 years, 1200 dents, facing all kinds of insane situations, and some dangerous, some absurd, some humorous, I was chased by gangs, I had people point guns at me, the police questioned me frequently, but it never deterred me because it had become this life force. I could be surrounded by a gang one night, but I would be absolutely calm. It was the strangest thing, a complete, my wiring was completely reversed from what a normal person should be. So do you think there was something, do you ever feel that you were being protected those nights? Because of hard time believing that you just felt so safe, and 1200 nights in these places without feeling like, without, you know, you were supposed to get killed by the odds, you should have got killed, so what was protecting you out there? So I'm not going to say that I wasn't afraid. It's just that the psychological terror that had been, you know, torturing me for years, was replaced by physical danger. And so psychologically, I just, it flipped into this state where I, mentally I was very, very calm, very relaxed, knowing that I was in physical danger, and worried about the physical danger. I'm not going to say that if a gang was chasing me, you know, I was laughing my way down, down the alley. I mean, I was, you know, scared of what could result from that. But what saved me, I mean, part of it was the fact that I could, that my mind was so clear, I made friends with some of these gangs. A couple of times I outsmarted the gang, the gangs, and got away. Just, there's, there are many, many stories. And I started writing these crazy stories right from the get go right from 1993 when I started entering these places. I started writing these stories. And the stories are all compiled in, in a book that I've just released. So, it's two, it's two books in one. There's the memoir. It's basically, what kind of person does this consistently for 25 years going into, into a dangerous place, putting their expensive gear down and thinking I'll flash my lights here for the next few hours. And hope, hope nothing bad happens. So that's one part of the story. And that's the memoir. And the other book that is woven together is the things that happen when someone goes into these places consistently for 25 years. And those are the crazy alley stories. So, it's, so it's very strange because the memoir is, is told in, it's told in kind of an intimate, quiet way, because that's how I was outside of the alleys and the alley stories. And this was not planned. The alley stories are told in a completely different voice, their adventure stories. Yeah. Yeah. But you also said that every dark corner, you was a redemption too, right? And so as part, like a part of your trauma seemed to flutter away. So did you feel that? That's a beautiful description, by the way. Did you feel that in the moment or is that something you'd look back and realize? What's inside Tang Luck? More games to explore than you might expect. Take a closer look, browse the different options, and choose a game that catches your attention. Every session can bring a different experience. So there's always more to discover. The app is free to download and no purchase is necessary to play. You may have a chance to win rewards. Curious about Tang Luck? Explore it for yourself. It was something that I realized fairly quickly, but I couldn't put it into words for, I'd say, the first 10 years. I always felt like I mentioned earlier that I felt like a monster had taken over me and was pulling the strings. When I went into the alley and ruins at night, when I would come away with a beautiful image of an ugly, scary location, I felt like I kicked the monster in the balls. I just felt good. I felt like I had won. I felt like I was almost a kicksotic battle against this monster. I knew very, very early on that something there was healing me and that I had to keep going back. That's good. I said, these places, so the person that went into that first alley, he said you went into the first alley sometime around 1980s. 1987 is when the crash happened. Six years later is when I discovered the night photography. This was mostly in Quebec and Montreal. This is where it began. I did that, but eventually I moved to the States. My images come from every corner of the country, 30, 40 cities, and always never planning, never looking at police reports, where are the dangerous areas so I can avoid them. I never did anything like that. I just would go into a city and drive around and this area looks kind of rough. Let me see if I can find a shot over here. So yeah, unbelievably lucky, yes. If I did this 10 times, I'd probably die eight of those times. So the boy, I'm looking at your book. I've looked at your advanced reader and that. Had some 21 year old whose brain snapped in 2021 like is there any any the the trauma is anything left of that boy? Or I use someone like different now in in 20 26 who Well the thing about the thing about This kind of trauma is it never it never leaves you My voice is kind of rough because of the trauma a Lot of a lot of those 17 years in Quebec Delt with language problems. I mean there were This was a small town and there were times went with a very small English school. There were times when When I was out with my friends. We knew to keep your English mouth shut Don't let anybody don't let anyone know that you're an anglophone because Problems could could occur. Oh boy. So So if someone is listening right now right and they feel like They feel like they're having the same feelings like how did you was a snap? Was there any signs beforehand that people could like see what's going on in their life? I know you know Well, I I'd had I think ordinary moments where I felt some form of social anxiety Nothing nothing serious nothing This was This was exponentially worse and And it occurred at lightning speed. I mean within a day or two I I became an entirely different person So if you could speak to the if you could speak to that boy walking into the interview today in 1987 What what would you say to him? Would you say Ron Ron Ron or would you say as you know you need to this is what's coming? I I think I would I think that Boy could have could have benefited greatly from a lot of the advances in What we understand of a CPTSD I Was clueless to the source of the problem What would I tell this boy? I I guess I would You know, I've never been asked that and it's a it's a good question. I Would tell it to Take a break to leave to leave the city for for a year and Because early on I think I think it might have been possible to To not completely reset but to to not fall deeper and deeper into this abyss I Saw at least a dozen psychiatrists in the early years and Many of them were absolutely useless. I I one time I saw some Positive affirmations on a poster and I came in and said, you know, I I was reading this this poster that said you know you can do it You know today is a new day. Whatever. It's I don't remember exactly what it said and I said every time I I Repeat these words I feel a little better and he said, well, that's not how it works. Those are empty words I would stop doing that So these are You know, these are the some of the clowns that are in the field well talk about let's talk about the heroes in your life Your wife Nicky runs the studio with you, I believe and yes What has it been like for her watching you go through go go out to these places living alongside the story? That you're carrying Well, yes, she certainly is one of the heroes in in my life She we we actually met because she bought one of my she bought some of my photography and She found out from someone that when I go on shoots. I sometimes bring somebody along and She wanted to come along on one of my shoots and that's That's how we met now. I think I I think I was immediately attracted to her and so I I God seriously injured because I climbed a structure To see if there was a better shot and a train it was a train track and A train came barreling down and I had to jump off and I hurt myself pretty badly So we ended up spending the night in a bar with my foot on some ice and talking and But she she was very different from anyone else. I met because she She she is so calm and when I If I start to spiral which I can still do she She grabs my hand and and just Reframes what I'm thinking and within within five seconds. I'm I'm back You know, I'm back to normal So she's she's yeah, that's her superpower. That's great that you have us so that's good you have her in your life And she sounds like yeah, she just wanted to go on photography. She saw a cute photographer Yeah, I want to go help in photography and then oh, I'm gonna look after in hospital and be in a bar with them Yes, there was no there was no ulterior motives in any of this, right? But hey, well, I came out I came up winning on this one. Well, it sounds like it so you Also say that you do not that you do you as in the Royal you do not stand need to stand in front of something interesting To be a better photographer. That's the kind of radical idea because photographers think so can you say something about that? I Create my own images. I construct them with light I don't change anything if you look at one of my if you look at one of my Allies and ruins images many of them I I juxtapose with the the day version and You can see that it's exactly the same structure. It's just that you're looking at it in a different way the power of light and color is unbelievable and And I've found my way to communicate Through through colored lighting and I found how to reframe what something looks like what something feels like when people look at my Final night images They will say oh how beautiful I love to be there And then I show them what the place looks like during the day and their jaw drops. They can't like they this is a place they would go running from In in Between 2017 and 2020 I felt like I had I felt like I had that the the alleys had done their their job and I felt suddenly for the first time that I didn't have to go into another dangerous location to create a photo and And I decided Why don't I bring my camera to a nice place for once? But I didn't want to go to To beautiful places. So I still go to very now. I don't go to scary Dangerous places now I go to very ordinary places That people would walk right by And I and I turned those into beautiful You know theater sets Very tale images. I mean obviously I would love to have some of your art on my wall It's gorgeous. I love the light of the color. I love how it moves. It's just great But you know, we do some creative we do some creative stuff on the show too I mean we have we do this thing and hopefully you can indulge us, you know because we did we did write a story for you attributes. Sure, sorry. Okay, so we research, we look at your website, we look at what you do, we look you up online and stuff, and we put something together, and then we write it, and then AI can help us put it together a little bit, and then we kind of change it until we like, and so this is going to be read by the sultry voice of Howie. All right. We have to, and I'll have, can I have some input when it's when the story is over? Absolutely. We will, you can, we'll get your input at the end, we'll let you, okay, hear your evaluation, and if for some reason it starts saying things that you feel like that's totally not true, please feel free to stop or comment throughout the story. There's no, as you know, there's no rules, you do what works for you, right? You go to places that seem abandoned that people think you shouldn't go, and you do it anyway, and make, make this gorgeous art, so do whatever way works. Okay, here it is. Okay. There is a particular kind of courage that nobody applauded because nobody ever sees it. It is the courage of getting up at midnight, putting up a camp, putting a camera in a bag, and walking alone into a place, the rest of the world has agreed to forget. It is the courage of doing that again the next night, and the night after, and the night after. For 25 years, not because anybody asked you to, not because there was a finish line, not because you fully understood why your body would not let you stop. Just because something in you knew the work was the work, and the work was saving you, even though you could not yet say it out loud. That is Xavier. What I think about when I think about Xavier is the quiet of it, the patience, the unspeakable solitude of standing in an abandoned ruined and destroyed at three in the morning, holding a flashlight, waiting 90 minutes for a single exposure to finish, while the city sleeps in your nervous system finally, finally gets to rest. Most people will never know that kind of stillness. Most people will never need to. He spent his life perfecting the art of being present and invisible. That is not a metaphor. That is a real way of moving through the world that some of us learn very young. When the world has not yet proven it is safe for us, he learned it, he lived it, and then miraculously he turned it into something other people could see. The photographs are stunning. They really are, but the photographs are not the miracle. The miracle is the man behind them who walked into the dark 1200 times without a map, without a diagnosis, without a single person to confirm that what he was doing made any sense at all, and who came back every single time a little more whole than he was before. He thought there was a demon waiting for him out there. He learned that demon was inside him, and then he learned that even that was not the right word. There was no demon, there was a wound, and every alley he lit, every ruin he redeemed, every photograph he made was a hand reaching back into his own life saying, "You are not the monster. You are the one walking the monster home." What an extraordinary thing for one person to have done. What an even more extraordinary thing for him to finally let the rest of us see it. Well, I mean, holy crap, that's all accurate. So yes, you've gone deep into the book, and it's true that for decades I thought I was fighting a monster, and it was this endless battle with this monster. And one day after having another horrible incident where it had left me injured and vulnerable, and humiliated and depressed, I decided it was time to confront the monster. And so I turned the lights off, and I sat there, and I tried to conjure this creature who had assaulted me endlessly, and I was expecting to see the fangs and the claws and the thorns, and that image just dissolved. And I realized that I was the monster, that I was all this time I had been battling myself and not just myself, but my injured child who didn't know any other way to defend himself, and had to just become afraid of so many things. And I don't know who switched on the, you know, I mean my fighter flight system was turned on permanently, so that I felt like I was being hunted every minute of every day. If it was that little kid, I'll, you know, give him a talking to, but, but that's, so that realization that instead of fighting myself and, and attacking and insulting myself, what I had to do was was embrace this monster, which was, which was a part of me, and which was really just this injured boy. And I started to do, I started to, to do a lot of guided meditation where I would encounter myself as a, as a young, as a young boy, a six or eight-year-old boy, and I would, and I would just tell him how proud I was of him, and, and I would hug him and, and, and I did this for a couple of years, and it, you know, the, these are the, when you have a condition like I did, it's, it's a never-ending battle, especially when the condition was not known. I mean, today, if this crash happened to me today, and I walked into the right clinic, I think that I could have turned things around very quickly, but, you know, near the end of the book, I, I asked myself if I, if I, if I could have, if I could do it over again without the trauma, would I, I mean, I certainly, don't, I did not enjoy all those awful moments and years, but, but it, I came away with so many beautiful things. My, I had a lot of friends that I ran away from when this first happened, but we had, we had, at this point, we, we had bonded. I was like brothers with, with them, brothers and, and sisters, and they wouldn't, they wouldn't let me just dwindle away, and they kept calling me, the book is, is dedicated largely to them because, because they, they kept, they gave me a foundation that I could stand on, something that stopped me from falling any further. And, a couple of them knew, had a better idea of what was going on. Most of them didn't, but they didn't ask questions, you know, when I disappeared for a few months and then slowly returned a little different quiet kind of cracked. Nobody asked me, you know, what's wrong with you, you know, why are you being this way? They just accepted it. And so I, I was very lucky to have them in my life and to have a family that, you know, it's hard for me to finish that sentence. A family that also was behind me because I come from a, you know, there was generational trauma there and you know, the problem with generational trauma is that you try to raise children as a broken person and you cannot provide the same kind of care and love that a, you know, that a fully present, healthy person can, but the bottom line is that my parents, even if my dad was, was a broken man, but he, he did everything for us. So, so I, so I, I was very lucky in that way. So your book is out now, I'm Ali's and Roons, the book The Memoir is available now on your website. Is it, is it, do we, is that where you used to say your last name? Un, newest, yes, and you easy, yeah, and you easy.com, you can see some examples of your art there and actually your book is for sale and there's lots of articles that you've gone on and you, you want, you went on so people can go. It's available. Wait. Oh, it's available right now, right, and you have something going on. So, so the book is finished now, but it's in PDF form. It will be, I'm accepting presales at the moment. The book will be, the book will be printed in mid-August and, and that's when, that's when the, the hard cover will be available. So this, this episode we're recording right now, obviously it's not live, so it's probably the, when it goes on the air, we can aim it to be mid-August, so it could go inside with the book. So people listening right now can go buy your book on newest and you easy.com right now, because it'll probably go on air in August, September and go buy the book and the art alone is phenomenal, I love it, and do you sell any prints of your actual pictures? Do you sell that too or is it just, just this book? Well, part of the, the miracle of my life is that I was, even when I was healthy, I was told, don't go into, don't try to be an artist, you know, a starving artist is, is a phrase reserved for one, one career. But after the crash, there seemed to be virtually no chance of, of having that kind of, of a, of a life, life of an artist, and yet, and yet I managed to, I managed to do it through obsession, through perseverance, I've made my living, selling my, my art, virtually my whole life. Yeah, I love, I love tracks, I love that picture, that's really awesome. And I like, I really like the one, I think it's called, I'm not sure what it's called, but it has the motor city, I'm signed on the top there, I like, the history of that too. What's that one called? It's called motor city. It's called motor city, yeah, it's a, and yeah, it looks like on motor city, it wasn't, there's some, you utilize, some of the, I know you put lights on the, but it seems like you use a lot of the lights that were there too, right? Well, this is, every shot is custom made, so it, it depends on the available city lighting, and then I incorporate that, if it's extremely dark, then it's all my lighting, it just depends on the, on the, the situation, the moon often plays a role. My shots, you know, 30, 40, 50 minute exposures, and suddenly you get these dark, blue, gorgeous skies with star trails in them, which make a nice backdrop for the lit up locations. I have to admit, when I heard about the work, I envisioned you screeching up to a alley ways, nothing a few pictures, and screeching out of there, I'm now, when I hear about it, it's more impressive than you're spending 90 minutes in a dangerous place, and you're also lighting up like a beacon, like the lights have gone door for people to come to you, right? Oh, this is part of the problem, and it's often more than 90 minutes, it could be a few hours, and you're right, I start lighting things, and, and, you know, I met a lot of good guys, but there's a lot of bad guys out there, and they often came out of the woodwork, and it was a strange way to work, because I had to be completely focused on what I was doing, the lighting was, was very complex, and trying to see in the dark to frame the image was very difficult, but at the same time, there was a red light spinning on top of my head, a red alert, constantly scanning for danger. Wow, so let me ask you, they do kick us out of this studio here, so we need to, I want to get a few more grids and then, but if somebody picks up your book, "Allies and Runes," and reads only one page, what page would you the hope that they would land on? Well that would be, well there's, there's, there's a couple, but there's a page early on that's titled, "25 Years," and it's, it's basically a summary of what I did, but there's, there's one alley story in particular, which I put right in the front of the book, just before I get into the memoir, which was one, one night in Toronto, I am walking by, I'm walking down an alley and there is a gap between these two buildings, maybe 15 inches wide, and I would look for photos everywhere, and so I, I stuck my head into this, into this gap, and as my eyes adjusted, I started to see a figure inside a person, and I just didn't think that was possible, buried like 10 feet deep inside of this narrow crack between two buildings, so I pulled out my flashlight, turned it on, and there was a traumatized, severely traumatized man wearing shredded pants, no shirt to soiled, he looked at me, our eyes met for maybe one second, and I turned the light off, and I walked away knowing, knowing who this guy was, knowing him so well, because I came so close to being him, if my mental, mental illness had gone just one step further, if I had had just bad luck instead of good luck with friends and family, and my photography, I could have been the guy in the credits. Well, so if, so let's, we talked about people who can find your book, and so let's see how he looked like he wanted to ask a quick question he was, so let me see what I was going to ask here, so is there anything, is there something that, is there anything I did not ask you that you wanted to talk about? So, for 10 years I've been wanting to write this book, but I was so afraid of, I mean this story is so personal, so humiliating, it was something I had planned to take to my grave, but I knew what a, what an incredible story it was, and if I could gather that up with all of these insane alley stories, I thought I have a really good book here, but it took me 10 years to finally put the structure together, and then a year of very, very intense writing to finish it, and when I was done, my big question was, I mean, I, you know, self-analyzed myself to death. And I thought have I just been talking out of my ass do I know what I was saying do I I mean I've researched the conditions and and so the first thing I did was was send the book to To the clinical world to trauma world and I got instant validation What I was what I was telling was Psychologically precise And so so yeah, you're both I was You could help the hell too. Yeah, people could help to heal people well before we I Appreciate you and I love your art and I was sorry. I keep looking at your art in my corner here I'm sure TMS clock slow man. What was that? Okay, just just some picture. I think it's called It's just it's just so much aspects to your pictures because even the this what what people write in the Graffiti have I miss so much aspects the one that I was reading looking at one which one I was looking at there was a love by the way I love The compact darker that's so huge. It's like something from Charlie the chocolate factory That so cool. There's a there's a insane story Around that one. I mean, I don't have time to tell all the stories, but there's there there was a gang that's around that was in on the east side of Indianapolis and I Don't know what how much time we have these stories some of these stories are so Go on for so long But basically I was surrounded by a gang while trying to create a photo but But before that happened I met this homeless guy called big Mike who was a giant and He walked up to me and I was wondering if I should run and instead I got into a conversation with him and And he just he's just a decent decent guy and I and I felt like we're in an especially dangerous place and so I said I said Mike you want to be my lighting guy. I'll give you $10 and he said absolutely So then he was on my team and when this gang surrounded us he hovered over everybody and and it was a a long drawn-out chess game trying to know how to Handle what was happening and I slowly started putting my gear away just talking about the ruins and having these people sneer at me and when I finally got all my gear together I just motioned to big Mike I Think we're ready to go and we We had to walk through they they were we're Completely surrounding us. So we had to walk between them and I didn't know if they were going to grab us if they were going to start something and Somehow we we walked away so that was Right, they didn't take any of your equipment. Well, this was Again, it's a long story and I get into a lot of detail about exactly what was going on So people have to this is in the book presumably so people need to get it from the book, right? Yeah, yeah, wow, okay So before we sign off is or like we've got people out there who want to be artists who are feeling the trauma that you're feeling and Some people want it on both and some people don't want to be artists, but they feel the traumas. What's your message to people your final message? I I think my message is to Follow your instincts I I've created several bodies of work that are all quite different and when I started them People just thought it was the most bizarre thing. Why are you bothering to do this Including, you know, why are you going into these dark places dangerous places at night? If you have a crazy idea Don't let anyone tell you That it's crazy just keep keep going Obsession is I think part of being a good artist Being a perfectionist, of course If it hadn't been for my trauma I may have ended up working in an office working somewhere else because It's a difficult career and a lot of my artist friends when I was younger And did up a finding the easier path which was taking a job somewhere else And I couldn't because I I mean I couldn't talk to people. I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't I mean I was basically unemployable and so I I Did the only thing that I could which was to continue with my art? And so I I I guess another Lesson that I learned from that is When you find it rough and you and you see a lot of the easy way out Taking taking a job that'll give you More money and you won't have to eat ramen for a for a while then If you really love if you are really a devoted artist and you believe you have something something original to say Then I I just my messages just keep keep doing it and Don't don't take the easy way out Well, it doesn't sound like you certainly did and you have this beautiful beautiful art I'm looking through your art as we speak because I'm a little ADHD and I was listening but also looking at art And and it's some phenomenal work. I hope people grab grab the book is an amazing book to have just this just have the art alone. I like Yeah, yeah, I've I've Yeah, unfortunately it's on another table, but I've had a couple of Test pieces made print-on-demand versions made just to just to make sure it Just to do some final edits. Yeah, and when I I mean I would love to show you the book now, but when I when I first held it in my hand it was It was almost an out-of-body experience. I Was holding the book it was 300 pages three pounds my entire life I my wife was talking to me. I didn't know what was going on. I was Practically bumping into things. It it was I mean the book is the it's the Piece of art that I'm the most proud of And it contains an accumulation of all the other art that you've created and so exactly that's right Thank you so much for being thank you so much for what you do Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being safe. So you can continue to do it. Thank you for The book will be out here probably about the time this episode has been broadcast Ali's and ruins go to New as and you easy calm and you can see read by you can't read probably yeah, there's an advanced reader on your website I notice is that's not the whole book is it is that the whole book the advanced? Oh, it is the whole book It's the whole book completely designed. It's the book It's hard it's a little harder to read a PDF. Yeah, I mean, but And you even have an art studio sale on May 30th in Chicago Yeah I'm in an art district and So we're all opening our studios on the 30th Which will mean nothing to anyone in August when they Sorry about that. Yeah, it didn't occur to me. Well, maybe we can put it on the air soon Well, May 30th might be a bit tight to get it up by there, but maybe We've got this part. I only talk about it, but thank you so much for your time Yeah, and I'll make sure to send you a copy when when it's printed wow that would be that would be a privilege I love that wow that's just More and more amazing stuff keeps popping up. So thank you for what you do and be safe I'm glad you're looking to photographing ordinary things now. So you don't have to yes I mean it's right. The thing about ordinary things that they might be in ordinary places and that might be might be It might be surrounded by carons now, not by gangs, you know. (laughing) - I can ignore the carons unlike a gang. - Yeah, well, they enjoy people disrespecting them, for sure. Yeah, but thank you for your time, and we will definitely be in touch about the next step, and I appreciate the time you took to come on the show. - All right, Doyle, my pleasure. Nice meeting you. - Thank you. - Bye. (dramatic music) - Xavier, I wanna thank you for trusting the show, with the parts of your story you kept hidden for 25 years. The alleys, for the alleys, for the ruined walls, for the 12th of the night, you stood alone in the dark with a camera, not yet knowing you were healing yourself, and for finally sitting down and riding it all the way through, so the rest of us could understand what we're looking at. There's someone listening right now, who has something they've been doing in the dark, quiet, for years. They have no language for why it helps, only that it does. I hope tonight, give them a bit of that language. (dramatic music) Xavier's book, "Aleys from Ruins" is available now. You can find them at [email protected]. That's NUEZ.com. Go look at the photographs, I promise you, you will never see the dark alley the same way again. Now go make a story we're telling, good night. - Podbean, your message amplified. - Ready to share your message with the world? Start your podcast journey with Podbean. - Podbean, the AI powered all-in-one podcast platform. - Thousands of businesses and enterprises trust Podbean to launch their podcasts. - Use Podbean to record your podcast. - Use Podbean AI to optimize your podcast. - Use Podbean AI to turn your blog into a podcast. - Use Podbean to distribute your podcast everywhere. - Launch your podcast on Podbean today. - At the Zebra, we save you money on auto insurance. Like Jessica, who saved hundreds. - Well weekend, here I come. - The Zebra monitors your insurance and alerts you of savings. Find out how much you can save at the zebra.com. Savings will vary, not all save. - Tang look, tired of staring at the ceiling on your daily commute? Play hundreds of fun games on Tang look. Download Tang look now.