Rolling Reach And Other Metrics For Scaling

50% of those were the same people. There's this crossover and so let's say when you combine them and you have them both selected instead of seeing 2000 you see 1500 right so that would mean that You know 50% of your audience you had reached in previous months and so and 50% was you know people you had Obviously, that's that's super important and that is enough in most cases But there is some benefit to knowing whether you're reaching a new audience or not and that might indicate that you can push hard on this It might indicate like if you have a goal of having a more sort of more creative diversity and reaching new audiences that CTMR can be one one indicator that that's happening and then you might be able to push harder on that or one argument is that yeah Running cost caps is going to risk fricked the the number of new people that come into your funnel, right and that your ads reach because you're constraining who you're willing to talk to like putting that big cap on there and and if you can't reach them You know underneath that bid you're saying to meta don't go there and so it does You know, I think the argument is that it can go after lower funnel audiences and just keep turning through those lower funnel audiences You know the diagnostic side of a lot of these accounts is that a lot of people are still are just reporting on what we all learned like Roas and like that's what you're doing and so much more of it is Around how are you talking to new people like Beth it's it's very it becomes much more simple And now let's take a listen to the scalability school podcast have a great guest today Let me tell you Kurt Bullock one of my favorite advertisers favorite people in my community Incredible human being Dad, Nike mountain bike coach Incredible partner and husband to his wife so you know Kurt what's up, man? Hey, thanks for having me. Thanks for the great intro and yeah mountain bike seasons over so I got a little bit more more time on my hands these days We were talking about what we bought for black Friday And obviously this is gonna air another time, but the support we're all it's right before Christmas We're talking about what we bought. I bought a tank of water here. I was telling the guys which is exciting for me Yeah, I was saying you're making making the big moves there with that one. Yeah, it was half off $1,200. I mean, yeah, there's just 2400. I mean unreal. They're like plus free shipping and it came the next day I was telling our team as like you guys need to buy you need to buy something to make your sacrificial purchase to Zuck make sure you click an ad first, you know, get involved by buy a little something to Make sure you're supporting supporting the economy supporting meta who's our you know, they keep us all employed Sponsored. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, basically basically. I was I I We bought I have this problem where like I cannot wait for my wife to open up her gifts So I just like they're sitting in my office for probably three days and I was like I can't wait anymore You like just please take them and open them I want you to know you take it. I literally can't wait And so she opened up so I I joined team Hexclad from a knives perspective at least So we have some hex-clad knives now. So that was one thing. So they're already opened them. Oh Yeah, oh yeah, we're we've got the knives open. We got these like leg sleeve recovery things. She she opened everything She's already she's already done and opened the kids haven't opened their stuff yet. So like we'll wait for that But she's she's done. She's opened everything Yeah, no, we're my my final contribution was actually a couple days ago. I bought a sauna not a big one But I bought one of those like pop up ones You know right to sweat in 2026. So that's a my contribution Right light or I don't know it's a great question. I know it's not an surprise I know it's not an infrared, but it's it's got a it's got a heater it gets up to like 185 degrees So I'm just gonna slap it in my basement and see what happens All right nice. That's good. Well, you got Tacoma's boots for the wife Yes, that's a big D to C contribution. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to do my part and I think they're stressing over there I got an email today. So I bought it on black Friday. I got the email today that's like we have bad news Yeah, we've lost However many orders yours was part of the you know the orders that was lost and so We sent out a new pair of boots today. That was just like an hour ago. It got this email and hopefully I guess they're a tie for Christmas If you know you might actually get another pair of boots to you if you get to like her a for you so Yeah That was my first and a new laptop. I got a new top. I mean, that's good customer service side respect I respect that by Tacoma's that's that's that's good stuff feels like yeah Yeah, you that I'm sure they're sweating over there with all the people like you know reaching out about their Christmas gifts but Well today we're talking about a lot of different things not just what we got for our holiday after the holiday on black Friday We're talking about rolling reach and other metrics for scaling. You know, I think why we wanted to talk about this right is Media buyers plateau when they're scaling a lot. I think that happens. We know this and people wonder why So this is an episode about really a diagnostic deep dive for those stuck with winners and our scaling and we're gonna talk about diagnosis Sequences decision trees way that we go through things To scale so Brad why don't you kick us off in terms of where we're gonna start because you know Kurt Is it real reporting expert? He's the reporting head and guru for the Foxal founders membership and actually Curt and I are working on a piece of software. He can tell you about as well But Brad once you go ahead and kick it off Yeah, so we didn't episode I think it's out by now on dashboards and we kind of went through a similar framework for what's in our dashboard Will we pay attention to? Um, but I think this will be a little bit unique in that We're gonna kind of talk about you know where we're gonna go through maybe you look at things like MER AMER Roas CPA, but at some point those are not the only things that I mean I think there's some of the most important But at some point those don't those don't paint the full picture of maybe what's starting to limit your scale Maybe where you can preemptively get ahead on okay, I don't have issues now But I might have this leading indicator of issues that I may see in the future And so I know there's Big big Twitter X whatever this call of conversations around rolling reach and in Cost-proof incremental reach and all those different types of metrics and so I think we'll kind of dig into when when Roas isn't enough or when you're Butting up on you know some of these issues Where those can be can be helpful. So I'm like super curious how you like hierarchically like go through these metrics and when they start to be useful So wherever you want to start with that. I'm sure I'll have a million questions So please feel free right on all right. Well, I listened to the dashboard episode as well, which it was yes One of our tens of listeners, Andrew tune in then Yeah, I mean, I'll walk over you know all the same You know layout although I have a really similar similar process similar layout that you outlined, you know on the podcast So yeah, I guess Just as to paint the picture then you know, we do have the foundational metrics and that you know, I'm looking at as well You hit on the you know the most important ones right off of that MER So you know media efficiency ratio or marketing efficiency ratio AMER which is sort of your acquisition, you know, MER So basically just counting revenue from new customers and then You've got your you know in platform potentially Roas and CPA and then your triple whale your North beam or you might be monitoring the same thing So I'm looking at that on a day-to-day basis as well. That's kind of how I'm steering the ship But as I started to learn more about rolling reach And everything it became it was a big experiment for me initially to see like how does it all what impacts what you know Why do we care about this number of course? We're trying to reach people We and aren't our ads already reaching people so it was it was interesting for me to start You know learning about the context and which you know we use this and what it all means to because I think that there's not necessarily agreement And there's variations on the type of like Reports that people used you know when they say like a rolling reach report And I've got kind of my own variations that I was going to highlight here in the recording But at any rate so yes at some point I think it also becomes maybe more important now with sort of indromeda and gem and the way that everything is happening And sort of the importance of finding new pockets and new audiences in order to keep growing And so I think that that maybe put it on the radar in a way that it hadn't been you know previous times so all right Talk it let I guess at a high level then I like to use a rolling reach report it can be predictive and it also you can look at it and use it as sort of a diagnostic So it's you know predictive in the sense that You are measuring how many people you're reaching and so you're you know you're filling your funnel with you know with these accounts reached and so You're just to be clear for everybody that's what a rolling reach report is it just measures How many people over time you're reaching right like that's that's what it and it's and it's you can pull them different ways But that's effectively what you're you know because you're always trying to if you're scaling and you're not able to scale like we just audited a massive account in the D to C world And you know worked with some founder members on that audit um and They had spent 15% more to reach 1% more people. This is what we're talking about effectively. Yeah Yeah, and incurred maybe it's helpful to actually I know there's a couple of metrics that we're going to dig into Maybe it's helpful to start with like definitions of each of those things and then I think the diagnostic thing and and how it's pretty I'm uniquely interested in the predictive piece. This is my ears parked up and you said that but maybe start with some of those quick definitions and then We can dig it to how you're using that Yeah, yeah, that sounds good. So The way that I use it it might be slightly different than than other people use it. So rolling reach I you know I look at it as the report that meta started sending out, right? And so monthly rolling reach, they would pick a day on the calendar, usually two years ago, but, you know, sort of as far back as you can see me account sometimes. And then each month, what you're doing is you're saying, and you know, let's just take the super simple example, month one, we reached 1,000 people. Great. Month two, if we look at month two in isolation, we reach 1,000 people, it says. But when we look at month one and month two in the selector, now meta is going to deduplicate that and say, well, yeah, you might have reached 1,000 people in this month and 1,000, but 50% of those were the same people. There's this crossover. And so let's say when you combine them and you have them both selected, instead of seeing 2,000, you see 1,500, right? So that would mean that, you know, 50% of your audience you had reached in previous months. And so, and 50% was, you know, people you hadn't reached. And this is extended outward. So let's say that you're on month 12 now, you would look at, you know, what did we do last month? What did it say our reach was? And then what did we do the last 12 months, right? And then you take the different between those and you can see what your actual net new reach was or the new people that you reached with that spend. And so it's sort of a variation. It's a different, you know, look at frequency as well. That's a part of it, right? And you can calculate it by using frequency. But so that's what I'm talking about when I'm saying, like, rolling reach. I'm usually saying it's an expanding window. So one peculiar thing about that report is that if you're looking at, you know, month one, or let's just say month, month six, you're looking at month six, the definition of who you've reached previously is different than if you're looking at month 12 in that report, right? They each have a different length they have. And so the conceptually, it's pretty easy. It's like, have we ever reached them before? Yes or no? Right? Rough, but it is a little bit different if you're trying to compare months to each other. Because that, you know, you're not comparing apples to apples. And so to sort of make a distinction, I'm calling this other reports, the net new reach report, they're both net new reach. But just so that I can distinguish one from the other. So this other report that I like to use that we can talk about as well, has, you know, a sliding window where each month in the report looks back by some, you know, look back window. It's just to say 180 days, six months. So month one is, is you calculate it very similarly, except for instead of going back to the, to the start of the time period, you go back six months for every single month in the segment. And so that window moves a lot, it slides along with the timeline, I guess, of the month that you're looking at. Is that clear in any way? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so you're basically using, so rolling reaches when you're trying to find out, you know, how big is the total audience we've unlocked? Are we expanding our footprint over time? How far into the market are we? Show us the total audience penetration, right? Do you think is there a good way to summarize rolling monthly, rolling reach? And then using net new reach is, are we still reaching the same, you know, new people this month? Or are we still reaching new people this month? Let me say it more clearly. Is creative still unlocking new audiences? Because the window stays, you know, the same length, right? It can go up or down. It's sensitive to creative fatigue and tells when you've stopped expanding kind of too. Is that net new reach? Do you think go way to describe that? Yeah, I mean, I think that you mentioned one really interesting thing about that second, you know, way of doing the report with the sliding window. And that is the numbers can go up and down. Whereas if you're looking at like the first report, the monthly rolling reach with the fixed start period, at some point, you know, at scale, your numbers generally go down every month or you're lucky if you can maintain it. And so how useful is that when you're trying to, you know, run tests like, hey, we tested this new creative format. We've got this new objective, traffic, you know, this new upper funnel objective, let's say. And so the window is so large also by the end that to see the variations, it can be difficult to see what you're really doing. So that's why I like using the sliding window when I'm trying to make decisions about, hey, this is a test I'm running. How are we doing right now? Or year over year comparisons? How was this December compared to last December? But I like to use the first report if I'm looking at like market penetration, right? And saturation. So I find myself in the second report on like a weekly basis. I check it really regularly. And I use it for like you said, for making decisions about is my creative reaching new audiences or not? Where it can be maybe hard to see that with the first. Just for, I'm going to say this back to you to make sure I'm following that. In the example that you gave, you've reached 1500 people. And in month one, you've got 1,000 people. And in month two, you've got 1,000 people. So your rolling reach is 1,500. Because there was a 50% overlap in month two. Your net new reach was the additional 500 people that you reached. And so if you were going to calculate, I know there's some other metrics that pop up from time to time, which is like the incremental cost per net new reach or cost per cost per reach. The incremental cost per net new reach would be taking what you spent in total in the second month divided by the 500, which is the net new reach. And that actually tells you, and that's to your point. So if you look at this year, your cost per reach is going to look, say it's $50. But if you include last year, it's going to be something like 70, 80. Now it's going to be way more because you're going further back. And it's counting the additional unique people that you've reached over that time period. And so where these reports are to be helpful is-- I think the sliding one is actually super interesting, because that allows you to see it in these pockets. To your point, I think where this can get tricky, and what is historically tripped to me up is that due to just the nature of advertising, is that your cost per net new reach goes up over time. Like inherently, there are less people to reach. But if you're a brand spending-- I mean, I'm curious for your take on this maybe pockets of spend. But if you're a brand that's spending 50 to 100 K a month, and you are really tapping out, and your cost per net of reach is getting really, really high, really fast, or month over month, you're not reaching a ton of net new people. And you've only reached low millions of people. You probably have a problem here, because you've not actually really hit much of the US as an example. What I'm curious about-- I'm sorry, I'm like side-barring this a little bit-- is do you find value in actually comparing that cost per the CPMR, like on a month to month basis, like comparing-- I'm comparing January and isolation against February and isolation, because I'm curious if my new-- and maybe this would be mean with the sliding-- my new creative strategy last month, my CPMR was $50 this month. It's $40 in isolation, not rolling, right? Just in isolation. Is that how you're using it? Am I understanding that correctly? So I guess CPMR just also to add one more definition, right? So that's like-- instead of CPM, right, is your cost per impression. CPMR is just your cost per reach. So cost per 1,000 people reached. And one thing I love about CPMR is that you can put that column in your ads manager. So I actually use CPMR a lot. And so-- And CPMR is total adsbend divided by accounts reached divided by 1,000. That's right. So for instance, when it's in my ads manager, you can certainly pick up on patterns really easily, because it's right there with the rest of your data you're staring at. So I like CPMR for that reason. The other thing that I noticed is that CPMR aligns really well with some of these other metrics that we care about to cost per 1,000 net new reach for people who can't see my hand drawing. But if you see it moving in an S shape, you'll find that your CPMR also is probably moving in that same S shape. It may not be to the same degree, but they're very directionally correlated. And so I'll use CPMR in the ad account. And I like to use it to compare, for instance, there's talk about whether what white listing does for your reach. And so in most of the accounts that I've looked at, I'll see the CPMR for my white listed ads generally, if it's a good ad, much lower than my account average. And so I'll use it comparatively a lot. I'm not sure that I use it as much month over month without additional context. And that additional context would be like, what's the cost of my traffic in general this month and other things that could have an effect on that. But also your ad spend level, right? It's going to change depending on how much you're spending. So if you start blasting Black Friday spend, that might look different. And that's one more factor to compare or to take it. Sorry, friends, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Northbeam, the marketing attribution platform that we love over here at the pot. And good news. Northbeam is launching Northbeam Income mentality. Northbeam Income mentality gives you automated, easy self-service Income mentality tests while protecting you from the major mistakes so many people make while running these Income mentality tests. Because honestly, most of these Income mentality tests are kind of a mess, right? So what I love about it is you give you a casual truth you can act on every day, not one off siloed reports. And it does it end to end. So it automates, lift testing, it connects you with your MTA and MMM. So you can scale it works and cut what doesn't all in one dashboard. That's the real game changer. Now the Northbeam has Income mentality. It means you can run the absolute trifecta of marketing measurement in one single platform all using the same data. Northbeam Income mentality launches this quarter. Get over to Northbeam.io/Income mentality and be the first on the list. and they're offering 50% off unlimited tests for a year to advertise your shoe joint now. Tell 'em we sat you at the scalability school. Can't wait to hear about it. - The wireless thing example is an interesting one. I'm gonna ask a question in which may sound like I'm skeptical, but it's 'cause I think I know you're gonna have a good answer to it, but it's like, why is Roa is not enough in that scenario? And I think there's maybe two examples that you give. It's like, well, if Roa is working, maybe we don't need to worry as much about to reach on it or the unique reach on it, but it might be a secondary thing where we say, hey, we see Roa is, and then we look at that. And it's much lower than our account average, and that's an indication that we're reaching new people, as an example. On the flip side, it's like, well, if it's not working and we go look at this and it's super high, or especially when it's overlapped with our current reach, it's super high. It's like, well, then we haven't reached enough new people. It's like we worked with the wireless thing partner that didn't make our current pocket better or didn't expand into a new pocket. How are you using it? Are any other ways you're using it? - Yeah, that's how I would look at it. I think you captured it well there, in the sense that Roa is, obviously that's super important and that is enough in most cases, but there is some benefit to knowing whether you're reaching a new audience or not. And that might indicate that you can push hard on this, it might indicate like if you have a goal of having a more creative diversity and reaching new audiences, that CPMR can be one indicator that that's happening, and then you might be able to push harder on that. The other thing is that, and we're kind of jumping around to different things, but is using sort of the campaign compare overlap report. And because another weird thing about sort of net new reach and all of that is that you can't really isolate one campaign in that first type, in a monthly rolling reach setting, because the way that we're relying on meta to de-duplicate everything for us. And so we have to use the whole, and it does that at the account level. It won't necessarily do that for us. If you just have one campaign selected, then you don't know did they see other, were they included in any other campaign, right? So because initially when I was working on this tool, I was like, yeah, we should build this out and for campaigns and ads. You can't actually do that, but what you can do is do an overlap report. And so an overlap report is basically, you would take the account reach for, let's say, a 30-day period, and let's say that's a thousand, you know, to keep it easy. And then you have the total account reach without that particular campaign selected. And then in that way, you find out how much is that campaign contributing that is not being contributed by other campaigns? What you'll find, it's really interesting, is if you have any retargeting campaigns, sure enough, they have a 100% overlap. Also, you'll find that a lot of your, like, broad campaigns have maybe like 40, 50% overlap. And then when you find, in my experience, something that's really working well in terms of reaching new audiences, it might be, I don't know, it could be in the 20s, 30s, you know, 40% overlap. Those are all sort of winning numbers, but so that's what I'll use as well. For my white listing ads, too, as I'll do the campaign overlap, and see, you know, is this reaching audiences that aren't being reached by all my other campaigns? And that's a positive indicator to me, if my role as is also good. If it has, you know, its own pocket, and I'm not getting anything good out of it, it could be garbage, right? And so, of course, you want to use those other things to keep you grounded, those other metrics. So if you go through, so just a recap kind of thinking about this, so people go through, they're having trouble scaling, having trouble identifying what's really working, you're going in and you're looking at, you know, obviously you're gonna look at rolling reach, then you're gonna look at incremental cost per net new reach. You're looking at CPMR, which is essentially what we talked about the calculation, then frequency. What other things are you looking at? I mean, obviously you're looking at sort of the classics, but those are the, like some of the deeper metrics. And right now, what are the most common things you see when you're auditing? And by the way, we'll put all these calculations and everything in the show notes, so that's no problem. We'll have that for you that, you know, you can run that through. You can also sign up for Kurtz tool, which we'll have in the show notes as well, called add insights that does all this for you as well. But I'm just curious, like, what else are you looking at to diagnose and what are the main things you see? Yeah, I mean, so it depends on what I'm trying to figure out, but if we're sort of pulling on this same thread, you know, and trying to think about creative, and if we're burning out, or we're kind of circling the drain in terms of finding new audiences, then I, you know, I'll pull up one of my reports here. Hopefully that doesn't change. Yeah, I mean, I think we're talking about is that classic where people feel like they're hitting a wall. And I get this all the time, right? Like founder members, hey, it's been there, there are either they're a brand owner, someone in-house or an agency, hey, we're hitting a wall, you know, and we, we're talking about more creative and more diverse creative, which is good, and they're getting there, but they're trying to prove the point to the client that what they've been doing isn't working. So I'm wondering if there's other sort of pieces that go into this that are little bit deeper than just saying, well, your role as is going down. You know, one of the things that I look at is, and you can calculate this yourself, or you can use, you know, a tool to do it, but it's the percentage of net new reach. And so that percentage, I'm looking at that over time. And if that percentage is going down, you know, and we're having trouble getting it to move up at all, you know, that's a signal. And so I guess that sort of ties me into, you know, maybe some of the things that I've seen that actually can impact that number. So I guess that's one of the big things that I'm looking for when I'm doing, you know, the audit is, is our net new reach, and if we're able to increase that, if we're not able to increase that, and we're not happy with the metrics that we're seeing, then I start looking to some of these other strategies. And, you know, we might have brushed on a few of them real quick, but one is, fight listing and partnership ads. That has been an unlock for a few of the brands that I've been working on. If you haven't been doing that, then you'll probably notice an immediate difference if you set up one that's working well, you notice. You'll get cheaper, you know, CPMRs on that. It can scale more, and for Black Friday, that was some of our best performing campaigns. Black Friday is an interesting time, but is it because you're going deeper and finding somebody that better resonates, like a human being that better resonates with your existing audience, or because you're expanding into a new audience? - I think it's a combo for sure, and, you know, it also will tie into the creator's audience that they've already built, and those signals, you know, and I think that that's a big part of it. I guess it takes a concerted effort to really produce diverse creative, and to have like big swings that are really different than what you've been doing. I think it is a real challenge, and one of the easiest ways to do it is just to get another brain in the room, you know, or higher in other brain. That's a simpler way to do it quickly. If you're trying to systematize it, I guess that's sort of a different story, but, you know, for your team. But yeah, I think you're definitely tying into their audience and all the signals that they bring, you know, with them when you're using their profile to advertise. And then, you know, you touched on the rest of it, which is their delivery, their messaging, that's all going to be potentially different than the way you've been doing in the past and their approach. But yeah, I think they bring with them an audience, and that's probably a big component. I'm curious about the tactics, and I'm also still curious to come back to like the predictive piece. We've rolled off that. So if you have any additional things like, okay, white listing is an example that helps with this. If you have any other ones, would love to dig into those, or the predictive workshop, whichever path you want to go down. As far as predictive, I guess I just think about sort of the whole analogy of like, you know, squeezing the sponge. And so let's say for Black Friday, I mean, one of the big goals that we had for a client accounts was to increase our reach in the months leading up to Black Friday, so that we would have a nice audience to draw from. And, you know, and squeeze the sponge as they say. So squeezing the sponge is basically converting that audience, monetizing them and getting them to purchase. And so this could be running a big sale. There's different ways that you can do that. But so in the sense that it's predictive, well, you might have a really strong row as, and it might be because you're burning through your retargeting audiences, and hitting them really hard, you're not reaching any new people. You might have a really high frequency, and that might work for a short period of time, right? Like a Black Friday or some other event, like that, a product launch. Interestingly too, like when I looked at our Black Friday campaigns using these tools, Black Friday, like CPMR for many of the accounts was really low. And that wasn't, it wasn't like that for all of them, was actually when I'm looking at right now, where was the opposite, where I'm kind of trying to figure out exactly how that happens or why. But a lot of times they're hitting audiences that you've already got. And so the overlap is really high. That I think is pretty, pretty general across most the accounts I've looked at is the Black Friday accounts. Campaign overlap really high, and you're just squeezing the sponge. So I guess the point in being predictive is just that if you're not reaching those new audiences, even if your other metrics like your MER looks good, and your row as looks good, you still could be headed for difficulty in the future if you're not still growing. - So the way that you use your tool as an example is like on a weekly, monthly, whatever basis, you're looking at whatever version of the reporting, whether it's a sliding or the other one. And what you see from time to time is that the rolling reach starting to go down as a brand, as an example of one of the numbers that you might be looking at, can proceed row as starting to come down. And like that allows you to proactively say, hey, we are good with what we have for now. And that might get us through the next month, but it's probably not gonna get us through the one after that. And so we need to proactively figure out, is it the messaging that we're currently doing that's not working within the pocket of audience or we need to figure out a new audience to go to? I know Zach's not here, but like an example of this for him is like, he's, Hollow has sold, Soxton hunters is the one that we always gonna go to. But if you go look at the Hollow, I'm sorry, I know it's like, They started with the same thing. with messaging to a bunch of different types of people. And then they started making products for those types of people. So at some point the messaging wasn't good enough to convert the runner. And they had to make a runner product. Or you know, I guess a random example. So there's different ways to try to get your existing pockets to convert better. But I guess like, am I understanding that correctly and that it precedes the row as dropping and that's where you can pause and say, "Hey, might not be a problem today, but it's gonna be a problem tomorrow." - Yeah, that's exactly right. Yep. - Nice. Let me ask you about two things related to the actual tactical ad buying of this. So one is exclusions and how that affects rolling reach, how that affect, you know, AMER, right? Like I'd be curious if you're taken what you typically do with exclusions. And the second one is bidding, right? I think that this big account that I was talking about earlier, we audited that and they have cost caps and they don't appear to have changed them ever. And I mean, as far as I can tell, they haven't been changed very often. They're not adjusting them. So therefore, they're running out of people, really. - Well, exclusions, it's funny using sort of like an overlap report. So there's this other part of the reporting, right? There's the new engaged and customer breakdown, right? And so you can set, let's say, your website visitors in your engaged list or your email list or any of these things and your customer lists and then you can exclude them and then you can see them pop right up in those columns when you run the report, right? So exclusions are super porous sometimes, which has been funny to see. So I tighten them up and then I put into everything I can make sure that I have synchronized collabios segments and that everything is being updated. And so I'll rely on that as much as I can, but they only go so far. Oh, bidding, bidding, I think this is not clear cut. There's people argue about this, I guess is what I'm saying. So, but I think that the argument is that, or one argument, is that yeah, running cost caps is going to restrict the number of new people that come into your funnel, right? And that your ads reach because you're constraining who you're willing to talk to by putting that bid cap on there. And if you can't reach them underneath that bid, you're saying to meta, don't go there. And so it does, I think the argument is that you can go after lower funnel audiences and just keep churning through those lower funnel audiences. I've been looking for good examples of that. And I have, I've got accounts, it's funny before this, I was thinking about all the rules that I break that are sort of best practices. I was like, that actually be kind of interesting. It's like, what's all the stuff that I do that everybody says you shouldn't do? But anyway, as I was going down that, that I've got an account that's all cost caps generally. And we've been able to grow, we've been able to grow month over month for the last year. So you can definitely grow an account on cost caps. But I think that, yeah, you have to be dynamic with the bids. Just for example, like with Black Friday, I mean, I raised our bids like 25%. There was still no spend, so I'm cranking them up. And then what I did is that I also launched a lowest cost at the same time, I took those post IDs, put them in the lowest cost. And that was kind of training wheels for the cost cap campaign. I was able to blast money through that lowest cost, maybe teach meta about these ads and who's buying. And then that bought me a little bit of time also to adjust the cost caps. And then the cost caps actually turned out to be the highest efficiency ads for this account for Black Friday. It turned out great, but we had to use lowest cost to get there, I think. Although as we would have missed out. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. In terms of other, are there other bid types that you've used that have helped in the pursuit of scale? I mean, the reason I asked this is because I think it's never all or nothing, right? And in pursuit of scale, you have to use, I think, all bid types on the list, to sort of, we talk about creative a lot, which is huge. Obviously, we know this. We have like 17 episodes on creative from us podcasts. But what in terms of bidding is another one. And I think these types of reports illuminate that. Are there other types of bids that you see? Or I guess I'd be curious to do anything else that you think is overlooked, as it relates to scaling? Sure. Yeah. So just bid specifically, or I guess, campaign types, like going with a highest value versus any other type. Highest value I've seen when I can get it to work well, I'll run that campaign overlap report. And you'll see that it does have a lower overlap oftentimes than campaigns using the same build that are all on lowest cost, for example. And so it does seem to be tapping into different audiences, which is, I think, one of the arguments. The other one is like going with a, you know, a Rhoaz, a Max Rhoaz. I've got an account running almost exclusively on Max Rhoaz. And because they've got a huge catalog, like 14,000 products, right? And so it's really difficult to segment things out by sort of an AOV range or anything like that. We're like, all right, let's just go for, you know, a target Rhoaz. But as soon as we did experiment with other ad types, just in the last couple of weeks, and as soon as we introduced those other, those other bid types, you can see the overlap was very low on those. So that just shows me, I think that using bid types does tap into different audiences, different sections of these audiences. And you can see it really clearly when you look at overlap reports. Yeah. Which ones to use, you have to test, right? They don't, right? I mean, so I couldn't say which ones to use. But it's a combination. And I try them and I think you tap into different layers of the audience. Yeah. When you flip over to value, do you have to do a little bit of, I mean, value optimization generally speaking, for at least from what I've seen, so there's two points that you're making. The first is that the overlap might, there might not be overlap. There might be, but there might not be. Just due to the nature of how meta is deciding to go, I think something that's interesting to curious about is what happens to your reach, your cost for reach on those value campaigns. So do you have to kind of, you assume that they're going to be higher just to the nature of like how they're doing the bidding and then you just have to kind of know mentally, like, Hey, I'm just expecting CPMR is going to go up as a result of this. And I'm okay with that in the short term, just to make, because I'm sacrificing that for net new people into the funnel, right? Okay. That's exactly how, yeah. And so I just sort of make that mental, that mental adjustment. And then I can compare it against other campaigns of the same type. Cool. And then I exclude you. I'm a pair of view. Sweet. I just wanted to go back to exclusions really quick. If that's what you're actively going, are you actively going and adding exclusions to force meta to try and reach that new people? Is that something that you're doing across the board or even in a few accounts? I have. And I wouldn't say that's a strategy that I'm really using right now because it has been super effective, you know, because I already have pretty strict exclusions in there. And so if I'm going to go, you know, and make it even tighter, I guess I'm already excluding like my website visitors and my free art existing customer list. Yeah. If if I'm just going for, yeah, for net new reach, then I'll exclude. And then you'll still see that it hits tons of website visitors, you know, but yeah, it depends on the account though. No great way around it. That's why I think that's interesting to point out, because I think a lot of there's been a lot of no like we're not using exclusions who care, send it type of thing, right? And using the creative to do it. And I think I still think we're all trying to, when you scale, you're trying to reach net new people. And I think that like having hard exclusions is useful. Like, I mean, I was along with creative diversity, creative type diversity, using, you know, a product catalog as well. Like, you know, all of these things that we talk about. I think we can use the last couple in the last few minutes of our podcast to do a new segment I'd like to introduce called what let's talk is if we weren't recording, because sometimes we get caught up trying to sound really smart. But, you know, what's what's some shit that you guys want to talk about as if we were recording for me on the scaling part and all of this is that I think that, you know, the diagnostic side of a lot of these accounts is that a lot of people are still are just reporting on what we all learned. Like, you know, just like, M.E.R. or like, Rhoaz and like, that's what you're doing. And so much more of it is around how are you talking to new people like that? It's very, it becomes much more simple to me. Like, right? Like, you're figuring out all right on that new reach. Like, who, who even cares like about this and are they, are they a resident is this resonating with them? Like, that to me is so much of it. I don't know how you guys feel. Again, yeah, I mean, not recording, although we are, but pretend we're not. I mean, if you're, if you feel like you're making diverse ads and you go and look at your rolling reach and it's, it's not going up for them. It's not going up as fast as you want to or it dropped off really quickly. Then I think the, the, the mirror that you're holding up and looking into is saying they're not really diverse or they're not, you know, they may look different, but they're not, they're not, they're not hitting a different motivator or a new angle that you haven't pursued or the same angle presented in a different way from a different person to type. So yeah, no, that's, that's interesting. And when I say this, I'm going holding the mirror and looking into it. So, yeah, no, I'm curious of you. Have anything you would ask? Well, I mean, I guess the thing that I just jumping a little bit is, you know, one of the big questions I have is just upper funnel objectives, you know, and how does that play? You know, what's really working these days? Yeah. And because I can raise like net new reach through the roof, right? With like, yeah, the, with the traffic campaign. And it's also funny too. Like last, last month, we had one of those like runaway ads that just like the CPMs were like, for, you know, like, no good reason, two dollar. You know, if anyway, it was ridiculous, but the traffic was just garbage. I so I've been experimenting with like, add to cart optimizations, view cart, view content optimizations. And one thing though that I have found that is working really well is quizzes. They have really low overlap for whatever reason. I'm still optimizing for purchase too though. Yeah. So it's like, I'm up to, yeah, I make sense. It's like diversifying on, well, it's diversifying too on. They're looking at the time and site that they're spending there. And it's a different interaction. And it's like diversifying on like an avatorial type of thinking too, right? Like it's, I mean, I think we focus a lot on the, on the added self. We also obviously, you know, in the episode of Ryan Doney, you can listen to it. It's like the landing page is a huge part of it. And if there's something that we can all learn from, I would say Zach's team. One of the things is they're, they're diversifying the places they're sending people in a pretty regular basis and the types of things are putting them through. And like if you think about it from a consumer, like you go through, like I, honestly, like I got sent frickin' like, Fairety and all these websites. And I like even Huckberry, like I look at them. And I'm like, there's a lot of frickin' shirts on here. I have no idea like if I like any of these. Like if they look nice, I guess, but like as a guy, you know what I mean? You're like looking at this. It's like, there's overwhelming choice. So like if I went through and took a quiz, it's like, what are you trying to solve? It's like, well, I'm trying to solve like this. This is the type of weather I live in. And it's like, it suggests you a shirt and like, great. That's why I go to Chattupe T to ask it, like, do I need to go to the bathroom? Because I don't know sometimes why I have to go. But I think that that personalization is huge. And I think that's another good way on scaling and diversifying. And just to your point about upper funnel objectives, you know, I just was with the head of growth for for Hollow. Kevin, who is, you know, lives in Denver. We were spending time together and I was asking him about some of the things they're doing. And they're doing up, you know, upper funnel objectives. You know, it's hard to measure, but they're going into places where they're trying to push retail through put and it works. Like they're pummeling people's eyeballs with stuff about Hollow socks and turns out there's been better south through and Dick's sporting goods and shields like, you know, and it's targeted. So I think that does contribute and that obviously helps. And they reach of course, but that does help you reach new people, which I think is a part of it. As you start to scale, as you really start to spend a ton of money, I mean, they spend, obviously way more than I think the average person. But I think that there's validity in that. And I think just pulled up the advertisers are too myopic. You know what I mean? Like we were all taught in like thinking in this like little tunnel sometimes. And I think sometimes like got to think a little bit bigger and try some stuff out of the box. Because the playbook, if there's anything we know about meta advertising, there are no playbooks. The playbook that you have today is like not going to work next week necessarily. I pulled up a really specific example. This is my last piece from from my end. You mentioned the landing pages and I was really curious. The quiz, Kerwin, you mentioned that I wanted to dig into the most obvious landing page win that we have this year. And I'm looking at their their cost per read cost per CPMR as well. I'm looking at their CPMR month over month. And there was no new like standout ad. But what I do know is that month to month there was from from April into May. There was a new landing page and the ad going to that page was the same. And the following month into June was the same. And the only thing that changed is CPMR actually came down over over the course of both of those months. And we increased spend 50% to month over month. You know, to your point on quizzes and nature to your point on landing pages and unlocking more. It's like the landing page itself actually unlocked better cost per cost per 1000 reach because assuming it's speaking better to the audience that we're actually reaching and then also forcing the meta down the path of that of that audience and optimizing for those folks. So yeah. I need access to this tool ASAP. Yeah, I'd be interested to see you know, at the overlap. So talk about the tool a little bit. So it pulls rolling reach it pull is so talk about like briefly and where people can get it. Yeah, sure. Alright, well, so this is something that I mean Andrew you and I've been working on putting this to this tool together. So it has a monthly rolling reach calculator. So all you do is you log in with your Facebook account and it connects to all your account. So you can run the report on any account you're connected to. It'll build a table. So it does the pretty graphs and it also builds a table that you can export to CSV. If you want to mess with the data, you know, in sheets or whatever or put it in reporting. It does that second report that we were talking about with the sliding window. It'll do campaign and ad set, you know, overlap reports and then we're working on some other cool reports that are still yet to come. But it also does like the audience segment breakdowns like with new existing and engage, you know, customers over time or segments over time. But anyhow, if you can go and sign up for free, it's tools dot produce DEPT dot CO and you'll get access to all the reports right there. Super simple to use. There's a little button on there. If you have any questions, it'll ring me. If you have any new reports you want to add hit the button. Let me know and we'll work on it. Building a report for the people is what you do out here. That's what we're doing. We'll build the reports for the people. Great. Great to have you. Thank you. Thanks for being here and Brad. It's always wonderful to see your face. If you love this episode or you have thoughts, feel free to email me, Andrew at foxholddigital.com. Brad is Brad at sexyman.net. I'm just kidding. But just email me. I'll get you in touch with these guys. And thanks for being here. Talk to you soon. Thank you so much. It's just hilarious. This episode is brought to you by the foxhold founders membership that Andrew and his wife, Grace, he run. It has been absolutely pivotal for not just the homestead team, but the easy street brands team. We've had, I don't even know how many members are currently in there that are a part of our ecosystem. But when it comes to anything from learning ads to understanding what's going on to building an agency to know and retention, it's been absolutely useful for our team when they get stuck here. They need help to just go there and resource all the other experts. So definitely would recommend it for anybody that's looking to, you know, take it step deeper, try to get a little bit more knowledge on on growth marketing and all the world. D.C. is. I think one of the most incredible things about it is you can just like open up this Slack group every single day. You can pin your favorite channels for the topics that you care most about. And like every day, there's going to be somebody who just like because they want to contribute something valuable to the group, you can go learn something every single day. And it's going to be extremely useful. There's some ballers in there that you just give like the benefit of learning from that, like for the, for the cost, like you couldn't pay them that for their time, but through the membership, like you get access to some incredible people and tons of resources. D.C. Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest resource to me too is like the events that, you know, Foxville founders does. They've been able to do some even in Wisconsin, even in the boring state of Wisconsin, which is pretty awesome, getting people together in person and able to have really just like honest conversations of what's going on. What's working for them now, you know, where they're at their business and knowing that there's going to be like Brad said, some real killers in the space in this, in this membership that can, that can help and are willing to take the time and help. So that's been a huge part of why a lot of our team have really enjoyed it as well. And the applications are now open if you're looking to join. So, Foxville founders. Yeah, Foxville founders.com. Go check it out. Go Blacks. The only way that we wrote this podcast is by you sharing it with your friends, honestly, like reviews kind of don't really mean anything too much anymore. They're really meaningful, but they don't do a lot for the growth of the podcast. And so sharing YouTube links, sharing Spotify links, sharing Apple, whatever we call it under the podcast app now, anything you can share the better we're going to be guys. Anything else you want to say on this? Yeah, please go check us out on YouTube, rack up those views for us. 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