Robinson Burkey - Wormhole

Solana has always been building for the financial use case and so whether it's features and institutions want, whether it is speed, whether it's just Lindy effect and TVL and volume and the metrics that drives the attention and the trust. Hey everybody and happy new year. This is Nick Dukov, live from the CFC conference in lovely St. Moritz, Switzerland. We've got a great guest today for our podcast on the road and internet capital markets podcast hosted by the Solana Foundation. I'm joined by my good friend Robinson from wormhole. First, I'd like to say it's been a great year so far. You know, Solana continues to fire on all cylinders. I continue to meet incredible builders, incredible institutions, launching new products on Solana. It's just middle of January but I'm extremely bullish. Robinson, welcome to the pod and please tell us a little bit about yourself. Thanks for having me Nick. Happy to be here in fabulous St. Moritz, Switzerland. Yeah, for those who don't know me, I am one of the co-founders of wormhole foundation and I know a lot of folks listening might be like Solana and Volvo Solana building on Solana. So you may be familiar with wormhole. We've been working with Solana since almost inception. We actually got our start by connecting Ethereum and Solana, making sure assets could flow back and forth. I think about five years ago now. Fun fact, we were also part of the namesake of one of the first, if not the first, Solana hackathon, which I is something that I'm proud of. But our goal is really quite simple. It's to connect all blockchains, make sure assets can flow seamlessly between them and of course, as we've said, we've been working closely with Solana and making sure that we can help the internet capital markets, mission and vision come true, making sure every asset across crypto and beyond can come and be traded on Solana. So I'm excited to be here. I've been in the ecosystem for a long time and a lot of good stuff to come. Awesome. And we'll definitely get deep into the wormhole, so to speak, on the pod. But first, I thought it'd be fun to talk a little bit about CFC because you might see CFC on the timeline on X or on LinkedIn. It's a pretty cool conference, very small. It happens at a hotel in St. Moritz, Switzerland called the Suvreda House. They really bring a great group of people, but it's highly curated. And so we thought we'd let you in a little bit into what happens here at CFC. So we're on day two here at the conference. Robinson, tell me about your experience here at the conference. I mean, it's been great, right? I think the theme and what Nick mentioned, I think, is one of the benefits. It's very small and curated by design. And the theme is very much so the, I guess, the convergence of traditional finance and blockchain. You know, this is something that's been talked about for a while, but now we're really starting to see heat up. And if we actually take a step back and think about crypto a few years, years ago, it was still kind of in that searching for product market fit faith. You know, is it, is there gaming, is gaming going to come on chain, a social fight going to come on chain? And I think we've, we've all come to terms with the fact that, you know, what the, one of the real good PMF or, or use cases for blockchain is a better financial system. And when we think about how that kind of convergence with traditional finance, it's kind of updating a lot of those rails. So this conference in particular is very much so focused on how do we update the rails that traditional finances on? How do some of these traditional finance assets come on chain, come on, so Solana, get traded on Solana and internet capital markets. And so it's a really good combination of both kind of defy crypto people and then traditional finance people. And it's small enough curated enough that you can have conversations with all kind of the movers and shakers of people who are building kind of real things and meaningful things. And it's just been a great conference so far. And this is actually my third year and we come, we keep coming back because we always leave with, you know, integrations and, and plans to implement things based on what we've learned and people we've met at the conference. So who are some of the people in firms that, yeah, you've seen here, this conference and then years fast. Yeah, on more of the crypto side, Rockaway X, I know they're big with in Solana, you know, they're here and we've, because of this conference, we've done more and more work with them. Obviously, Mayan is a bridge built on wormhole and Rockaway X has been very involved there because of this conference working. We got to Rockaway X, by the way, recently merged with one of this a lot of dads. Yes, right, Solane. Yeah, yeah, they did. Infinix or synthetics on the, on the crypto side, you know, Ave Athena, you know, obviously, Solana has a great representation here. But then you have the traditional finance side and you have all kind of the major names you, you think or maybe you don't think and it's surprising to you guys, but BNY Melon, you've got JP Morgan, you've got Cancer, you've got, you know, a lot of regulators, government organizations, from jurisdictions all across the world. So it's really a coming together of the minds, if you will, on both sides of the aisle. And what do you hear that like the financial institutions we're looking for? What makes me so excited about crypto? Yeah, I think we're moving out of the tokenization phase in terms of, I would say what I would call experimentation, if you will. It's like, how do we get things on chain? How do we build up the TVL? You know, that's exciting, right? Because, you know, cash, equivalent assets, they need faster settlement in these various benefits that come with tokenization. But I think they're also really excited about, I would say kind of two categories. One is, how do we start using these RWA's more in DeFi or Solana DeFi, for instance? Right now, there is, you know, they are being used, but how do we kind of go further and, you know, have, for instance, an RWA is collateral for, for purpose market or something like that. And on the other side, I think where there's a lot of conversations about, there's these private chains that these institutions are using to maybe settle things within the organization, but they need to access these larger public markets like Solana. And so we're focused, at least at wormhole on, how do we connect the private blockchain that, you know, JP Morgan has with Solana? And that's something that they are very, very keenly interested in and candidly we've already started doing a lot of work. That's a great segue into, you know, how does wormhole work with these financial institutions and tokenization platforms? And, you know, what are you saying? Obviously, Solana is not the only, you may have started on Solana, you've expanded to supporting other chains. You know, what, what still in your mind makes Solana unique and why does Solana continue to grow? Mind share and market share and institutional space? Absolutely, I'll maybe start with just a little bit. I know folks listening may already know this, but for those who don't, just a high level on kind of wormhole's main goal. So our main goal is simply to connect blockchains at the end of the day. There's a lot of blockchains now. It actually didn't used to be the main school of thought that there would be a lot of blockchains five, six years ago, but there are a lot of blockchains now. You could argue that there's only, you know, a select few that are doing the meaningful amount of volume. Yes, but there's still a lot, and there's still multiple that are doing a lot of volume. So our goal is to connect them. What do I mean by connect? We allow you to send data between blockchains. If you can send data, you can send assets. It's all digital. And so for us, a lot of what we do is we can send meme coins. I think we drove a lot of the meme coin traffic to two in front of Solana or Solana had it all, and other people wanted it. So they were like, how do we get some of this meme coin traffic? We obviously move a lot of network tokens. So we brought Mon that was listed on Solana. I think it beat a lot of centralized exchanges. Mon is Monad. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think day one, we did something like 25 million of volume on Solana. Yeah. I actually think it might even be more, and there was like 8,000 new Mon holders because of Solana, which I think even the Monad team was very excited about. So we work with network tokens, and then we get it more into the institutional side of things. And I think as it pertains to Solana, we've always been kind of onboard with the idea of what I would call like practicality or pragmatism. I think we have a lot of respect for Ethereum and what it represents is this kind of like nation state resistant, extremely, extremely, almost overly decentralized blockchain that there's value in that. There's a value prop, there's use cases, et cetera. But I think we've always been kind of drawn to, especially because our background is, is HFT is kind of more trading. What does it look like to have a very decentralized, extremely fast, extremely cheap chain, right? These are value props that Solana's been talking about for years, but they've always been talking about that and always had the financial use case at the top of mind. It's only recently, I think it was actually a couple days ago, even base mentioned that they're going to focus mainly on DeFi and finance, which is actually, they've come a far away because it used to be like, actually, we don't want to focus on DeFi. We want creator coins, but we don't need to get good on the base rabbit hole. But what I think I'm saying, what I'm getting at is Solana has always been building for the financial use case and everything that they do. Whether it's features that institutions want, whether it is speed, whether it's just Lindy effect and TVL and volume and the metrics that drive the attention and the trust. It's just kind of hitting a critical mass at this point, escape velocity, if you will. Every institution we talk to, and we obviously work closely with you guys, is either already working with you all or is like, "Hey, how can we work with you guys?" And yes, we work with more chains outside Solana, though. But we're still seeing a lot of the asset flow come to Solana, but we make sure it's bi-directional, and if someone wants to move an RWA or something like that to Ethereum or another chain, they can do that. What are people talking about in the hallowed halls of this Reda House this week? What is the word on the street? Is 26 going to be a good year? Are we going to see more growth? What are some of the challenges? Any good goss that you've heard? Yeah, I would say there's maybe like two themes. I think one theme is kind of this era of practicality. Now, what is that? That is mergers and acquisitions, getting realistic about token versus equity, getting realistic about revenues. I've been in crypto for a while, and it's a very much so a hype-driven cycle. I now feel like we are in the cycle of fundamentals, and I don't think that's going away. I think a lot of the discussions have been around merging with the company, around getting acquired, around acquiring. I think we're going to see a lot of this type of behavior in 2026, which should make for a very interesting time. I think it's good for the industry. A little consolidation, getting serious about how to value these projects. All of that is very healthy, but there's going to be some pain along the way because we've been valuing narratives, really, above everything else for a long time. That's kind of a lot of what I've heard within the conversations that I've heard. I think the other interesting piece that I'm always interested in is the DAC craze. We had this kind of hype-y DAC craze, I think towards the end of last year and maybe in the middle of last year. I think some of what I've been asking and trying to figure out is our DAC's dead. I think the answer is no. I think a lot of these types of new types of maybe financial products are just products in general. They have always had this hype-y bubble. Even crypto itself has this. I think we'll see the hype in the froth. We've already seen it kind of die off, but there is need for a public market vehicle like a DAC that provides yield, that provides these other things that maybe a sophisticated investor would want over an ETF. So I think we'll see, like, Solana or Sol probably have two successful DACs over time. They might come back, they might consolidate. We by no means will have a world where every project has a DAC, but I think that some of these DACs that launched will have a resurgence, but I think a lot will kind of die away. That's been some of the conversations I've been having. So have you been having the same? It's so funny. So last night at dinner, it was a pretty cool concept, but they had you switch tables for each course of the meal. So you started at one table for the appetizer course, you moved to another table for the main course, and then you finished at a third table for dessert. And for one of the courses I happen to be sitting next to on one side of me, the president of Pantera, who Pantera is one of the main investors and leaders of one of the larger Solana deaths, and the other side of me was the CEO of one of larger Ethereum deaths. It did lead to a normal that situation. I was literally the bridge between Ethereum and Solana deaths in that regard. But you know, I think everyone to your point is taking a different approach, right? Because simply having the asset and, you know, staking the asset, you know, anybody can do that. And increasingly, you don't need a debt for that, right? But deaths did give exposure to institutions who it was easier for them to buy a publicly traded security than buying the asset spot, or some other way to access it. And then I think now that's returning to differentiate by doing more things, whether that be DeFi, whether that be like the one we mentioned, SoulMade, and- They're acquiring a company that just has a revenue- Rockway X operating company. And so I do think you'll see, you know, really interesting things in that space this year. The thing that I think has been so notable to me this year at CFC, this is only my second CFC, but it does grow every year. And then the number and names and kind of size of the financial institutions grow relative to the folks that are on the crypto side. So this year, there's representation from DTC, for example. I think they might be a little nervous. They're going to be extinct with all this blockchain technology. But okay, all right, that's spicy. I don't talk more about that. Well, I mean, blockchains at its core are really good, transparent settlement layers, and a lot of what DTC's product or services is in fact that. And I think that they're here wanting to explore other ways to get involved with crypto. They understand what blockchains could do to disrupt their business. And I don't know what they're exploring. It could be tokenization. It could be other things. But I do think that- And I don't know this for a fact, but I'd have to imagine they're thinking about that, right? So they obviously are. They wouldn't be here. I mean, at props, props to TTCC for showing up. Yeah, right. And they've made some really great hires recently. So really exciting, that they're here and pushing forward. And I think that's the thing, right? We're still so early. My view is a rising tide lifts all boats. This is a very competitive space. However, there's just I think so much more surface area for growth. And I'd love to see more collaborative effort in the space. I feel like it can be very kind of fair knuckle. But I think this is one of these things where when folks work together, they can accomplish really great things. I actually said that a lot too. I said a lot too. It's a good quote. So what else? What is your view for 2026? Obviously, 2025, I think the big unlock was Trump taking office January 20. Obviously, he dropped a meme coin the day before. This has been about a year since then. Not literally a year. I remember I was at the airport in Zurich flying back to the States when the Trump coin dropped. I saw it drop on X or something. I no idea if it was real or not. I went on Slack. Nobody had any idea. They called boarding. So I closed my laptop. I went on the airplane and the Wi-Fi was broken. It's about an eight and a half hour flight back to the East Coast U.S. and I slept rest and watched some TV and I got back and I saw this thing was on the chain that you are doing so much that you're such a part of. So in fact, it was a real thing. And in those few days, I think something like three or four billion, maybe even more of stable coins was on-ramped, something like three or four million users KYC'd on moonshot, which is Jupiter's meme coin trading app. Yeah, that was crazy. It's funny because we actually, the on-ramps, I know, very well because we did about, I think we did about 1.8 billion of inflow for Solana from Ethereum, from base, from Arbert from B&B, everyone sending stable coins to Solana trying to buy Trump. It was one of our biggest volume, like 24 periods, I think we've had it years. And it really stressed tests in the system. We were fine, but it was kind of an all hands-on deck to make sure nothing went wrong situation. So I had a very similar experience. 100%. I mean, when people ask me, you know, my view on on meme coins, I was like, this was like the greatest in production, stressed tests with real financial risk assets. Like, I could imagine. And I think that really sets Solana off on a good good path last year. But Trump really did help move the industry forward in a lot of key ways, both in the executive administrative branch efforts with SECFTC and a number of other administrative functions, but also obviously the genius act passed in the middle of last year, which was huge for stable coins, is clarity act going to pass in 2020? I think, yes, I think there's a lot of recent controversial news around rewards, right? I think a lot of folks listening know banks really want to keep their moat around your assets and the custody of your assets and the act, the ability to not really pay you much for holding their assets, right? I don't know if anyone, anyone listening, go to your begging app right now and check how much yield you get on anything you deposit in there. I think less than one percent. Oh, it is. It's way less than one percent. And so, you know, I do give Matt respect, I will say coinbase for at least they're the loudest beating the drum wall and it affects their business the most. So of course they are, but making sure that they can pay rewards and I'm doing air quotes for those listening towards to to to their customers. So I do think it'll get passed what the the final kind of form will look like, I think is TBD, but can you point that for me? What's your probability? What what is the? It gets on 2026. Oh, 80, 80, 80. What is it on polymarket? I could go look right now. What do you think of the odds on a polymarket right now? I would have to say and I guess if I say under what my percentage prediction is, I should probably go take a position. That's that's what I'm going to say. I mean, polymarket's got to be at 60 65 like David Sacks, the cryptozard and Trump. I think at the end of the year, we're talking about how they're trying to they were saying a date, they were saying January to February. So it has to be close, but yeah, clarity act would be a big deal, I think, but what what else do you see in 26? What are what are some Arabians? And it's kind of hot takes first. So there's no, I would say there, of course, there's going to be some big catalyst like some of this reg change that really adds positive tailwinds. But I think one of the other things we will see a lot of is a punitive regulatory environment that crypto was kind of born into, cause it to have a lot of systemic issues that will be changed. And what do I mean by that? This concept of these these protocols having to have foundation, multiple labs teams, I think this decentralization is largely good. But I would, maybe one of my hot takes is I'd go out on the limb and say, is it too decentralized? Are we are we being so decentralized that we're not being as productive or not moving as fast as some of these protocols? Good. So I think we'll see not only a consolidation of company eat company if you will, but I think within a lot of these protocols that have multiple organizations, I think we'll see some consolidation. Again, that's not immediate gains, but what you have over time is a lot better operating companies. They're going to focus on revenue and we're just going to get way more, we're going to become a much more serious industry and and look a lot like, you know, maybe the tech industry or finance industry in some of these ways. All right, quick, some quick hits price prediction, BTC over 250K or under at the end of 26. At any point in the year, I think we'll get close to 200 under 250 by end of 2026. Okay, I'm bullish on BTC. Under. Yeah, under. Okay, you say clarity act. You've got over. Yeah, you're like the like, you're positive on that one. RWA, TVL. What's a 20 right now? Billion. Yeah. Does it get to 50 billion this year? Here's maybe why I know I was supposed to give a quick answer. I think a lot of the focus is going to be a lot of cash equivalent assets are already in chain. I think what money market funds make up like 10 billion of that 20 billion. I think a lot of the focus is going to be on how do we get more sophisticated assets on chain? So that would be my bear case that would slow down the trajectory because the focus won't be on, oh, how do we just get more of these money market funds, a cash equivalent on chain? But I think 50s are reasonable target, even with that, even knowing that a lot of the focus is going to be, let's bring these different types of assets on chain. I think I think 50s are reasonable targets. I say absolutely. Stable coins at a trillion. What's it mean? I don't actually think it's like 300 something billion. Oh, wow. That's a big jump. That's a big jump. I will say I'm bullish overall in the macro for 2026. I would say stable coins. I would say stable coins get close to trillion, but not yet. I think that'll be 2027. Okay. Biggest upside first of all, not the token, but just the ecosystem. What's the biggest upside view for what happens given your proximity to the ecosystem? Well, here's the thing. It's like, Solana already leads in so much. I'm not just saying that to gas Nick up here on this show, guys. But I mean that. It already leads so much in volume. It leads so much in developer mind share, institutional mind share. I think that's kind of hitting a critical escape velocity, if you will. Without getting into price, I think that my hope would be that the Solana foundation doesn't rest on their laurels a little bit here because I think the upside take all those metrics. I think if we have a good bullish macro market because that doesn't impact a lot of these metrics, I think you could see a double in growth across a lot of these things. So Robinson saying, I'm not really not that bullish, but I have pretty bullishness coming. Yeah. All right. You're saying they're Nick not to get too soft. Yeah. Don't get too soft. Yeah. No worries. You know, I'm always out there hustling. One more hard quarter for sure. So Robinson, thanks for joining us today. Thanks everyone for listening to On the Road and Internet Capital podcast hosted by me, Nick Dukoff from the Solana foundation. Excited to see you all in 26 and I know everyone's going to hit new highs looking forward to doing that together. Thanks for having me, Nick.