Robert Kirkman and Cody Ziglar at Comic-Con 2026 | The Midnight Boys

Alright, y'all. Welcome into the ringer verse. We are so excited. We've just gotten back from San Diego, Comic Con. Obviously, you've heard us break down all the Marvel news. But while we were there, we had some phenomenal interviews first up for y'all. This is a olive branch to all the invincible fans out there. We got to talk to the legendary Robert Kirkman, Van and I, talking about everything from the success of the show, his new comments, and Thrag. So please, guys, invincible fans. This is for y'all. We love y'all. Next year, we want to cover more invincible. So we're going to talk to Robert Kirkman. And then after that, we talked to Cody Ziegler, amazing, amazing guest. He has been announced as the new writer on the static shock series. So Van and I get into everything from like why static is a dream book for him and also some of his work as a TV writer on stuff like She-Hulk, Futurama, Reconmorty. So yeah, guys, enjoy some of the content we made for you, San Diego, Comic Con. This episode of the ringer verse is presented by Searchlight Pictures. More than ever, America needs a laugh and are super troopers to the rescue. The cult comedy classic returns with the most offensive installment yet with super troopers three. A debauchers bachelor party, an over-the-top wedding, and a dangerous drug smuggling ring all threatened the troops future. Fill your leader of cola and roll up to the multiplex for super troopers three. Meow playing only in theaters. Get tickets. Meow. Alright, yo, y'all. We are joined here by the legend, Robert Kirkman. Dog, how are you doing? Doing great. I've been in the comics all my life. You have kind of become the mayor of Comic Con. I feel like what is your San Diego experience? Like how many hands you shaking, how many retailers you talking to? What's it like? I don't often put my hands this close to my face. So because I am shaking a lot of hands and, you know, I don't want to get sick. But yeah, no, it's great. You know, you walk around. People are very nice and kind and, you know, yeah, you're never down and people are, like, hounding me or chasing me or something. But it's part of the fun. It's something I enjoy. What do you feel like? My favorite thing, my favorite thing is I'm walking through a hallway and somebody goes, Hey, are you that guy? And I don't know, man, you tell me that I keep walking. And then they're like, and then every now and then they'll Google something and they'll find me and then they'll chase me down. I'll be like, you just didn't know. Is it? Is it weird for you to be at the peak of Invincible now? I remember when I was buying the floppy versions of both Walking Dead and Invincible when Walking Dead was like taking off like a rocket to my presence. Okay. No, but Invincible's the real one. I will talk about this. So Walking Dead blew up. Yeah, I mean, there is an aspect of Walking Dead blew up when I was like, but Invincible's cool too. And no one cared. But and then I went to Comic Con. I've been going to Comic Con since 2001. So Walking Dead really blows up 2009, 2010, 2011 around and there. And so I can't walk anywhere. People are, you know, hustling me anywhere I go. I can't look at the Transformers booth. I can't buy my Indie Comics, you know, then, you know, few years into Walking Dead. People start bothering me less. And I'm like, Oh, you want it? Oh, this is, this is what happens. I am, I am significantly less popular. Like people still see me, people still, but it's not the same. There's a noticeable difference. And I was like, All right, this is kind of cool. I actually liked it because I can get around more, you know, it's also a little sad. It's like, Oh, if I lost my mojo, is it over for me? Am I done? But then now Invincible's going and it's like, Oh, it's back. Oh, no. What is it like to have your name associated with the stamp of approval for lore, right? Because I have one lore. Yeah. Yeah. One thing. A lot of people have one. Sure. But then to re up and have people dive into another world that you've created, now you kind of become like one of them all in the sense, right? So the people looking at you as like, you're making different universes. Like what is that? Sure. So to be in that situation now, like, what is that like? I mean, it's a lot of pressure and it's pressure that I take seriously. There's a fan base for Walking Dead and Invincible that existed before they really blew up. And they blew up because of that fan base. And so when I'm in the writers room on Invincible, when I'm approving cuts, when I'm, you know, working with the voice actors, like I am making sure that I provide an authentic experience to those fans. So they feel like the material that they loved, that they've, you know, supported for as many years as they have is being treated with respect and that their commitment to it is being honored. And so it is something that I spend, you know, a lot of time like making sure that I'm doing right. Is it wild to you that as someone I was reading Invincible month to month or sometimes, you know, y'all was taking breaks, like, right? Y'all, y'all, y'all need time. I was in the trenches. I was like, damn, I was supposed to come out. I was arguing my comic book shop owner. Is it weird now that a different type of fan is bad at you? They're just like, when are we getting the next invincible season? Y'all, y'all take it too long. So you've had it both ways. Yeah, no, I mean, it never, it never goes away. I mean, when we were doing Walking Dead Compendiums and they weren't all out, it takes 48 issues to do a Compendium, which is four years worth of comics. And so we did the first one, but we hadn't put enough comics out to do a second one. And everyone, they just don't get that. And so they're like, where's Compendium two? Where's Compendium two? For like years. And then we finally put it out. And the day after it came out, they were like, where's Compendium three? And it's like, oh my god, like, it's going to be another four years. Like, we have to make this comic. And so that's kind of like the precursor to the the William meme. We're, we're season five, William. Let you stay there. I want to ask you about. Sure. And so you know, there's a, you're in a lot of different mediums. So your television now, your animation and live action, but in comic books, there's no end. Like there's, there's, I mean, legitimately, I'm reading runs from new characters that I discovered when I was six years old. Yeah, right now, 46 years old. So, you know, we keep waiting for winds of winter to be written and all of this stuff like that. But for you, there's a kind of infinite sort of creation that people are going to expect from you in some of these worlds. What is the pressure to create like? People continuously asking you for more, for more, for more, for more, for more, for more. I don't look at it that way. I don't look at it as like a pressure to create. I look at it as like, a gift to be able to continue creating an opportunity. Because early in my career, I would do a book and I'd have a good time and it would get canceled. And I wouldn't be able to continue my story. Because I am very much a comic book person. I've been reading comics for as long as I can remember. And, and I love that continuing narrative that just keeps going without end. It's something that I just, I just really enjoy writing. And so being able to now be in a position in my career where I can go, okay, I have this idea. I want to do it as a comic book. And how long do I want to do it? You know, like that's a tremendous gift that the fan base has given me. And, and, and it's great working in television because the struggle of television is how do you make your story compelling to get people to come back episode after episode. And in comics, you're doing that. But you have to deal with month long gaps and you have to deal with like very abbreviated page counts. And there's a lot of hurdles that you don't have to deal with in television. But they, they translate like very well. So, if we say on that, what I find interesting is that you're one of the rare comic book creators where you've created characters and through your own fighting, through working with retailers, they've been given the chance to be out long enough where now it's like, invincible goes from selling what I think at one point it was like 12k. And now it's just like, you guys are on a six season. So, what is, how do we get basically like an industry to support new heroes and new characters and give them the space where it's like, you have your day one fans and then you have fans that are there for five years, ten years? I mean, that's the struggle. You know, if I knew how to, how to fix that, you know, I'd be doing better. It new ideas are very difficult to attract attention. Especially now that, I mean, comic books has long been an industry where Superman was invented in the 30s and Spider-Man was invented in the 60s and there's, you know, 50 years of this character and 30 years of this character and that has crept into all media. Now, there's never going to not be a new James Bond movie. There's never going to not be a new Lord of the Rings movie and it's just everything just keeps going and keeps going, keeps going. And so, any new idea always has to compete with all of these things that have built in fanbases and that's the struggle of everybody in the entertainment industry now. And we're all, you know, working to, you know, figure things out, but you've got things like weapons and obsession, back rooms that are like becoming like new franchises. And there's a lot of new things in comics. There's this new image comic called Dork. That's absolutely like set in the industry on fire. Yeah, you know, the invincible sold 12,000 copies guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, I'm just saying, there's a level of knowledge that is impressive. I, I'm now the Martin Grayson meme when I was reading the comics where he would always go to the comic shop and I'm like, oh, shit, I, I gave this chill. What attracted you to Transformers though? Like, because that is, obviously, this is the Transformers guy. What is it about Transformers where you're like, I have a take on this. I want to get my hands dirty. Yeah, I mean, you know, there are vehicles that turn into robots. Like, okay, great. You know, they had me from day one. So, so yeah, and that was the, That was. the sweet spot. I was just telling somebody earlier today, most comic book creators adore Spider-Man and they adore Batman, and that's all they want to do. They just want to ride a long Spider-Man runner, a long Batman run. Transformers and GI Joe, that's my stuff. I just love that stuff. And I don't know, it just hit me at the right time. I think I was like six in 1984. And so I was rushing home from school to watch afternoon cartoons. And if my bus was late, I would miss the first like eight minutes of the episode of GI Joe, because GI Joe was airing before Transformers. And I mean, you don't know, these kids don't know now, just being on the school bus and being like, oh my god, oh my god. You know, sometimes there's like an accident or something's going wrong with Louisiana. It's very hectic. You get home and they're delivering the PSA and your evening is ruined. And you get home, you run home and it's like, and knowing is half the battle. And you're like, damn it. Here's, here's the thing. And people, my kids don't, cannot wrap their heads around this. There was a chance you were never going to see that cartoon ever again for the rest of your life. You like it. People do not understand that once the credit rolls, it disintegrates. Unless you're lucky enough for a rerun. There's no one to man where you can go back. And they don't rerun every episode. They don't tell you when they're going to rerun. Exactly. Yeah, that's the other thing you'd come home and you'd get home on time. He'd be like, all right, new GI Joe. And they're going to be a rerun. And you're like, ah, you know, yes, I guess they own that. So please do. We watched a lot of cartoons growing up. And I remember the Mr. T cartoon and all of that stuff. And these lures seemed expansive thing. Yes. But compared to the lures that we have now, there is so much fertile ground to expand GI Joe or to expand the Transformers. Nothing's been a lot of work. The Transformers a lot of stuff in GI Joe. How do you look at taking characters that have that kind of fundamental groundwork, but then still doing something new with them. When you do invincible, it's all new, right? The archetypes might be the same, but it's all new. When you do the Walking Dead zombies, but a new way, right? Doing it. How do you do Transformers or GI Joe in a new way? I mean, to a certain extent, by creating the Energy on Universe and putting those characters together, we were in a sense doing something new because they hadn't ever really been integrated to that level, but they had been integrated before. So we weren't really doing anything new. We were just like figuring out different ways to approach it in different ways to present it. And so like in the past, anytime they would combine Transformers and GI Joe, it would be an event. And it would be like, here's every GI Joe character. And here's every Transformers character. And they're all fighting this or doing that. Or post-credits scene. And it would be, and it would be very, moving on. It would be very complex. And with the Energy on Universe, we were trying to like slow roll into the characters and start with just Duke. And there is no GI Joe yet. And that kind of was the novel approach that we had hit upon. But you're right. We would sit around and go, okay, what would we do with GI Joe with Transformers? And you start doing research. And you're like, oh, that's been done. That's been done. That's been done. It's very difficult to find a lane with characters that have been explored as much as they have. What do you see about those two lords coming together that make them right for contemporary storytelling now? I think one of the things that's the most special about those brands is the deep bench. They have explored those characters so much that you can, you know, firefly. Okay. I could do a series on firefly that ran 50 issues. And, you know, that guy's been, you know, here and there and wherever. But, you know, like there's so many Transformers that have, you know, so many like defined characteristics and things that make them interesting. And it's just, it's just great. I mean, people talk all the time about Batman's Rogues Gallery versus Spider-Man's Rogues Gallery. And look at all these great villains they have. But you look at Cobra. Yeah. I mean, good Lord. You got Stormshadow. You got Baroness. You got Cobra Commander. You got Destro. You got Firefly. You got Dr. Mindbender. Like Zartan. You know, I'm forgetting a dozen, you know, cool, awesome cool visuals. Yeah, Decepticons have great villains. It's just a, it's just a never ending wealth of character. So when we were, you know, we were looking at the internet, like putting the energy on universe together. And it was just like, okay, like this is decades worth of stories that we could explore. Hmm. Why do you think the, the 90s seem so back? You have a, you have a new comic terminal with Casey Cooper. You see everything that's happening in the absolute universe. That remind, obviously, you are heavily evolved from a business creative standpoint in image. But it seems like a lot of those, like the big muscles and the certain type of drawing, the stuff that I grew up on is now back. Why do you think that is? I mean, I think people are finally realizing how cool it is. Everything is cyclical. And I know that, you know, the reaction to the 90s, which were very artists driven, was to make comics that were very right or driven. And comic book writers can tend, you know, they can tend to be like somewhat intellectual and, you know, which tends to like lean towards like naval gazing and pretentious and slow. And, you know, there's a lot of artful comics out there that are very like historic and great and cool. But every now and then, you know, things just need to explode. And I think that, you know, it's gotten to a point where people are like, I would like to have a comic book where like knives and guns are flying at me at all times. And people have crazy muscles. And there's people busting through walls. And, and you know, that's what you see in absolute Batman. It's just absolute insanity at all times. And, you know, I think that's really appealing to people. Hmm. It's funny. You mentioned that like, my dad one time, he's, you know, he saw Nightcrawling. He asked me about Nightcrawling. It's a Nightcrawling in transport. It was a highsy transport. And I go, well, you know, he goes into another dimension. And then out of that dimension, he pops back into our world in a different place. And my father went, Superman was really strong. He was like, he was like, yeah, and I was like, but that, do you know why? And he was like, why is Superman strong? He's from another planet. My eyes are strong because our, our, our earth, our sun is young, and his cells are drinking up the energy. And I just remember blowing his mind with how intellectual, even the characters that he grew up on had to come through a bunch of different records. So like, that was kind of what you were speaking to. The fact that he likes to see Superman pick up a building. And I was into the scientific reasoning as to why Superman is so strong. How do you deliver to a new generation of comic fan that's kind of raised on that? Well, I mean, I don't know. I'll just say like, I, I am nothing if not a dumb guy. And so I live by the keep it simple, stupid model. And so, yeah, I think, I think simplicity always, like, wins the day. And so, so yeah, I think, you know, like, it is, it is interesting to think about like the basics of Superman and the evolution of superheroes until you get to characters like Nightcrawler or like when they, I also have a pet peeve with comics where they're like, uh, psychopsies, eye beams, his eyes are technically teleporters and he's teleporting an energy source from another dimension. He can't get hurt by his own beams and his brother can't hurt him. It's just like, hey man, he's got red lasers come out of his eyes. You don't have to do all this. I don't know why you're doing this. A lot of the humor of invincible, though, like you would make certain jokes that we're in the reference to. People, people, you know, people are like, oh, everybody in invincible strong and can fly or whatever. And it's like, yeah, I'm keeping it simple, you know, I want to ask you about somebody in invincible. Here we go. I want to ask you about one character in invincible. Oh, it's just going to be bad. No, it's not bad to set it up. Okay. There's new generations of invincible fans. And I will say there's a certain new subset that's been on our ass. Okay. So just to let you know, uh, full disclosure. Okay. We've covered all the seasons of invincible. Get worse. Okay. You'll, you'll enjoy this. Okay. But, uh, this last season of invincible, we didn't cover the show. Okay. Okay. All right. Fans. Now I'm mad. Go ahead. Look, you should be, you should be very happy. The fans destroyed us. It was, yeah, it was the fans destroyed us, right? Sounds well-deserved, guys. Thank you. It'll never happen again. Okay. But over time, also you set out season four. It was, you saw the conquest fight and you were like, all right. Well, you know, we don't need to see what happened. Nancy, this is us making friends because we're being honest, right? So the fans weren't, the fans weren't having it. The fans weren't having it. And also during this season, I got to be honest with you, just everybody was talking about the show, everyone was talking about the show. And I fell in love with one specific character, Thrac. Great. Like I kept, I kept seeing Thrac, I kept being around and every single time on the podcast, whatever show that we were, that would bring up, I would just say it's Thrac and that. I was just like, it just wouldn't matter what it was. It would be like, what are the rings? Do they have Thrac? It's Thrac and this season Thrac, Thrac, Thrac, Thrac. So my obsession with Thrac has me asking two questions about them. Number one, it's Thrac Black. Thrac has a fade, bro. Have you seen the hook? Have you seen the memes? Have you seen the Thrac memes? I have seen the Thrac, where like Krieg is just giving him the fade. It's like, I've seen that. Who sent you these memes? Yeah, it's like, and I'm on the internet. So Thrac got the Cesar. I'm not 60. Thrac got the Caesar. Okay. And Thrac got some swag with him. Did you co-threat, so for us, you know? - I mean, it certainly wasn't deliberate. How do I navigate this? (laughing) I'm gonna get in trouble. Help me. - You know what you just go, this you go, "Hey, whatever you see in Thracus, it's the truth." - I switch you. - At the end of the day, whatever you see in Thracus, that's the truth. But seriously, this season seemed to be like one that was really, really important to the fans. Action packed, I have watched it, it was amazing. - Thank you very much. - What do you feel like the legs on Invincible on television are? In the future, I'm sure you could ask us all the time, live action invincible, invincible trilogy movie. Like what are the legs on that law? - I mean, I'm very bullish on the legs on Invincible. I think the show is gonna go for a good long while. We're having a great time doing it. I've already seen most of season five and we're very deep in the production on season six. And so, I've got a pretty good idea of what's coming and I'm pretty excited. And I think the fan base is gonna be excited. Where it goes from there is anybody's guess. We are developing a live action movie with Universal. We have been for a good long time. - How's that going? - It's taking a long time because you can't come out with something that's not special. You can't come out with something that's not the best it can possibly be. So we're not rushing it. You know, the show is running its course and we don't wanna do anything that detracts from the show or distracts from the show. So we're navigating those waters is very precarious. So like I say, we're taking our time with it. So I've rambled for a good 25 seconds without saying anything. And I think I've talked about it enough. If you give us an invincible live action, we've seen some missteps in the superhero like Marketplace. - Where? - Hey, bro. - What are you talking about? - I'm just, hey, I'm-- - I can see, you've been talking shifts. - For years, bro. I was on the blogs. Okay, I know the history. Okay, so I just, when you are developing a live action. - Hey, the early internet, or the middle early, I don't know. Yeah, a long time ago, I'd say some stuff on it. - Hey, come on. So like when you're developing a live action invincible, how are you making sure that it feels special, that it doesn't just feel like another superhero movie that you just need to see because it's superheroes, but it honors what came before by, but also shows some new. - Just make sure that it has something unique about it, something that is different than other superhero movies and also in some ways different from the animated series, something that just brings something new to the table, something new and exciting. I think that's what's missing in a lot of superhero movies these days. We've had them for 20 some odd years now. In this current, I think that the, starting with Iron Man and Marvel and stuff, there was an elevation of superhero movies. It was like finally, they're honoring the material and superhero movies got way better than they had been previously sometimes. So yeah, but we've had that now for 20, 30 years and so you don't, it's not as exciting when there's a good superhero movie out because you've seen so many good superhero movies. - You want it to be great. - Right, you need something that's gonna bring some extra, also like people don't, like younger kids now, it's like when Samuel Jackson comes out at the end of that Iron Man movie. The very first Iron Man movie, like, - When you see the Avengers together for the first time on screen, it's like, oh, I've been waiting just for, - But even going back to just having Nick Fury walk into a room and talk to Iron Man, you're just like, it's as possible. - It's a fun, it's a fun, it's possible. - It's like, I never forget, like, I'm looking around, I indict it the rest of the road. Like, I'm in the movie and it's, it's Fury, I'm like, oh my god, and they're going, what? Like, people don't know. - Yeah. - And I'm like, and he goes, the Avengers and I'm like, Jesus Christ. - Also, they went with Black Nick Fury, which as a kid, I was just like, wait, which was, this is not the ultimate. - This is a phenomenal moment. And, you know, and in that moment, kind of, I'll, or in my question around this, you can't do that as much anymore because it's been done so many times. So that feeling of newness and freshness that we got by, like, getting to these places, we had never come. - Henry Cavill's Superman could show up in the after credit sequence of Spider-Man brand new day and be like, hey, I need your help fighting dark side. And the audience would be like, okay, I guess we're getting in Superman next to him. - Superman, Superman, Superman crossover, you know. - Okay. - I guess that's happening. - So like, what do you, since the feeling of freshness and newness is gone, and it's not going to return for at least a half a generation, what do you replace it with? - Well, if I said that here, that would be bad for me, but if I had it, but, no, I mean, it's discovering that. You know, it's finding that trick or that thing. Or, you know, it could just be as simple as going back to making like a really complex drama that lands on a lot of levels that just happens to be a superhero movie, to kind of strip it down to, it's core, just finding a different way in or a different visual language or, you know, something special that stands out. I mean, you know, everybody's hard to work on this. - Do you think the industry, though, will like take some of what's happening with the Invincible Show on Amazon or X-Men 97? When I was growing up as a kid, a lot of my on-ramp to these heroes was, I would watch the cartoon, I would beg my mom to go to the comic book shop and then some of you like, all right, here's the actual thing that it's based on, do you feel like, 'cause that's what's manga and anime. You get manga and you get an anime. How does the US market start being like, "Hey, we have so many stories, give people different types of ramps to get on." - I mean, that's part of it. There's, I think that, you know, there's a certain level of success that Invincible has had because we are adapting a comic book so faithfully, because we are using that material so completely. And even to this day, as good as a lot of superhero movies are, they still have source material that is significantly better than the movie that it's supposedly based on. And that is a, I mean, it seems like it should be simple. But, you know, like figuring it out a way to actually take the material that exists in comics and bring it to the screen in a better and more authentic way, which, you know, we've gotten pretty close in a lot of movies. But, yeah, I mean, if there was, you know, a new Marvel universe that was using some, you know, very historic comics in more complete ways, maybe that would work. - That's a question for me. - You know, I'm flipping around the channels and I see Negan, Negan's on TV. - Okay. - Okay. - Walking Dead is strong still. Walking Dead is going. Walking Dead is a thing. I remember the first season of Walking Dead watching it. All those people are like, - And walking Dead Dead cities, season three launches. - I think next week. Hey, what's that? - All those people are like legitimate movie stars now. - Yes. - Like, you have-- - I saw the Odyssey. There's like, there's like, (laughing) actors in that. - Yeah. - It's like, it's legitimately been an incubator. Like, how we found some of the defining stars of this era. How long can Walking Dead last on television? Like, it's going on for-- - I don't know. - Yes, I will say. - We'll see. - I mean, it's had a good long run and it doesn't seem to have lost too much steam. So, yeah. I mean, I think-- - Like, complex, amazing characters, especially like, with how we first met him. - Also, the way it's evolved in the television show with Jeffrey Dean Morgan in the portrayal, I think is really remarkable and has taken it beyond the comics in some really cool and interesting ways. - When I read, when you chopped off Rick's arm, like, hand in the comics, I was a kid. I was like, "You can't do that." I was like, "Fuck yeah." (laughing) - But our last question for you is, we're, our podcast, we argue a lot. We want to get transferred. - Okay. - Best Trilogy's, okay. We got the Dune Trilogy about, about to end this year. We got Lord of the Rings. We got the original Star Wars. What are some others? - These are cinematic tricks. - Cinematic trick. - Yeah. - Like, we're trying to crown the best Trilogy for Robert Kirkman. - You got Spider-Verse coming? Spider-Verse? - When that one wraps up, that'll be it. I think that'll be a strong one. Dune is definitely a contender. The first Dune movies are absolutely spectacular and I got the privilege of watching the second one, a 70 millimeter iMacs with my kids next to me. They're 2017 now, so they were probably about 18 and 15. When Dune 2 came out, and I would just look over while we were watching the movie, and I could see in their faces, like they were just losing their minds. And then I was like, "Oh my God, this is their Star Wars." This is like, this, this, you know, pinnacle of cinematic achievement to them, and we talked about it for hours after the movie. And so I could not be more excited for Dune 3, which is co-written by Brian K. Vaughan, which is super exciting. - Also doing Gundam, I think he's been working on the. - He's very popular, I'm very jazzed. But yeah, no, I think Dune is definitely a contender. It's tough. I obviously love the Star Wars trilogy, but I think for consistency, you can't be the Lord of the Rings trilogy. - Got him. - Wow, so we got one vote for that. - Just one vote. - No, no, no, no, no, no. - They kill him, I think Dune is about to be better. I think Dune very much has the potential to be better. Yeah, but I mean, completed trilogy already out. I mean, I don't know, I love those Lord of the Rings movies. I would watch those extended editions any day of the week. - Yeah. - And then I wish they were seven hours long each. There's not enough Lord of the Rings in those movies. - Wow. - And last but not least, for the fans, when are we getting more threat? - Oh, season five. - We can't get it, we can't get no solo books. We can't get a little spin. - Oh, yeah, you know, I don't know. We're busy on the battle beast book right now. That's taking up. But you did get a little bit of Thrag in battle beast. He does make some cameo appearances. Actually, you'll get a little bit of Thrag coming up. I'll say that. Okay, he's coming back. He'll appear in battle, but he's again when you release it. He's released in February. Okay, my catch, yes, I'm where you can't Yo, yo, you guys got the short month. It's unfair. Oh, no, that's why I love that. I love. Thank you. We appreciate that man. Robert Kirkman did the it'll be the headline. It says black history month should be year round. That's what we'll put this on YouTube. Two two months. Yeah, alright. Robert Kirkman did y'all. That's just great. Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all-day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just clump to a hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Maybe it's Mabelie. Y'all were back. We're joined here by Cody Ziegler. Thanks for having me. Yo, thank you for thank you for being here. If y'all don't know, my man, you've written on Chihol, Rick Gamority, currently Futurama. Yes, yes, yes. I would say for our purposes most exciting. Your analysis is the new static. Yeah. How's it feel? It feels. Can we curse on this thing? I don't know. Oh, it feels. I was telling them. I was with Stephanie Williams, who's another fantastic, prolific writer, comic writer, black. She's on the Vixen book. Yes. And like, you know, we've talked about, you know, it's like like we grew up. We don't, there's on a lot of us on TV, like you see, like, static. And like, seeing that domino that leads to like Miles Morales, which leads back to like static. It's like a very cool. Like, I always think about like the first time I saw that, that TV show. Oh, why they look like us. Like dad looks like mine is family looks like mine. They have the same interactions that we have like the same real conversations. And I remember being like 2021 when like, Miles got announced like, well, this would be a black spider man. And like, running to like the comic book shop and like, buying the one. Like, I've had that framed next to my work desk for like 14, 15 years now. Like, it's meant. So much to me. And like, I would love to give that feeling to like the next generation. Like, I would love to have like a 12-year-old kid like, Oh, he looks like my cousin, or it looks like my aunt and like, have them get into the arts. Like, they have this big evil plan where like, my dad was really, he's still here. But he was really into like, getting me into like, arts and drawing and like, he's the first time I saw like a Frank Brazil book was like, my dad, he got me into the arts and playing music and stuff. I would love the idea of that seed being like the thing that's planted in like, the next black generation, like, Oh, this guy can do it. Right. I can do it. And that means like, my sister can do it. My cousin can do it. Like, my friend can do it. That guy at the bus stop. At the bus stop, they can do it. Like, for me, it's all about, um, sowing the seeds and like, having those sprout up and like, getting more black people into the arts, and I think the, the, for me, the easiest way is like seeing people that look like us to do. Right. That's all very long with an answer. No, I like it static is such an interesting character because like when I first saw it to see the actual television show, I wasn't aware of the, like, the weightiness of the character. Yeah, the mouse on universe, the mouse universe and so I knew of the mouse on universe. But I didn't when I was coming up in comics. I'm a little older. I'm 46. So when I was coming up in comics to get comics that were off the beaten path, you really had to try. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so when static starts to come around, I remember my boy Ian goes, yo, this show is actually awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is an awesome character. Yeah. Like, nothing like this is not, this is an awesome character. Yeah. And I think people have been clamoring and waiting for that character to take his place in greater common book lore and pop culture relevance for a while. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I agree. Like, I don't know where you guys are from, but I'm from North Carolina. Very small. We're all telling North Carolina. So again, like, you know, I was like, maybe 10, 11, 12, when it came out, like, I didn't know that it was a comic book. I just knew it was like, oh, look like Batman, the TV show. Yeah. I know that was a comic book. And like, where we were at, like, comics weren't a huge thing. Like, you couldn't drive to like a comic shop. Like, you could go to like a new stand and maybe get like the flash or like, or a proposal to 7, 11. Yeah, exactly. But like, we didn't have a dedicated comic book shop. So like, I couldn't read comics. I got the comics very late. So like, I've been thinking about this, what I'd do, like the pillars, like, I think now we're very lucky. It's not a lot, but like, we have like, when you think of like young black superheroes, male superheroes, it's like miles and virtual. And like, I would love to have more people holding up those pillars. But like, I think to your point, like you're saying, like, right, the point finally where, like, people have been clamoring for this, for these characters. I do just care to be like a lot of black characters. This I got announced yesterday as of this recording. And like, this is the, I've never had just more black love from strangers in my, my DMs. Like, and I, I thought, like, for me, like, miles was the one for me. So like, I thought I'd just get all this love for miles. And I did get that. But like, surely the amount of like, this means so much to me. Like, I, I've been waiting for this book for so long, like, you know, spend like 1200 days or whatever the count was. It's like, you know, there's been like an ongoing, like, main lane line black superhero. So like, the amount of love is great. Also the pressure that comes with us. Like, oh, man, I got like really delivery, which is like nice. Like, it's a great problem to be as a great place to be. I just came here from the future. I'm recording in like, Bill Lamar was like one of our cast members. And like, it's so surreal to be like, oh, like, he was a virtual. Like, now I work with him. And now I'm going back and writing a virtual. And like, it's just a weird, like, full circle moment for me. It's a very surreal. The only time I've texted my dad be like, Hey, I'm writing this thing and be like, what, what are you writing? Wow. Yeah, it's very cool. What was your, what was your like, um, pitch for like static? Cause obviously, like, it's a dream gig. So yeah, it's one of those things where you're like, okay, now that I'm the writer. What's my plan? Yeah. I mean, I got to give it, I'm going to give a lot of love and shout out to Stephanie. Wait until this whole thing. I used her nominated Stephanie. Williams, um, because like, when we first approached me, I was like, I was just coming off miles. We did like 40 something issues. Like, now the 30, we have done like so many issues of miles. Like, I was like, Oh, is this going to be like a parallel move? Can I make this like a new fresh thing with like a rehab? Like all this stuff. You guys just like when you're in the creative field, like, you want to like strive and do like, you don't want to do the same shit. So you want to like move the goalpost in a good way creatively. And like, she was, she really gasped me up and gave me the energy I needed to like, come into with a perspective. And like, my perspective is like going back to like the TV show for most of us who didn't have really people like me who didn't have access like a city near us. Like we only we got this media through TV. So I want to be very friendly. I want to be someone who has maybe you know who static is. Maybe you've read as we competed like you know the major beats sort of the same way that like, we know who Peter Parker is. We know that Superman is another planet. We understand just culturally who Virgil is. And through that, this would make an easy access to this. Like I was saying, my point of view is that it's an introduction. Introduction to Virgil to like the audience, but also to the DC world at large. And I think now one of the benefits of that is like, we do have to have a lot of like. Black new writers coming into the DC with black characters that some of them haven't been announced. Some of them have been announced, but like I want to build a coalition and like I am of the mindset like a rising tide lifts all ships. Like I want to get in there and like work with all my other black careers and create like sort of like what milestone did like. Pretty like a new era of milestone with like that we're in the DC like we're all jumping out of this plane together. If my parachute doesn't work, maybe yours will work like that's my mindset going in. It's like sort of a tangent to what you're asked to go back to your question. I really want to be very approachable. I want you to pick this book up and be like, oh, I know what this is without having to be bogged down and lower and feel very, very fun. It's my introduction to static so like the way that I picked up miles was like, you should be able to read this and just know what the story is and know what these vibes are. And like if you're from the culture, you understand what this shorthand ends for these characters. Right now, you have the reinvention or not the revenge. Let me put you like so. You know, Mr. Terrific is getting a show. Yeah. And you know, he's a guy of ours, friend of ours. You know him. Yeah. Amazing. Right. These are characters. Him, static. Some others have been around for. Yeah. Right. They've been around for a while. But it's almost as if now you're debuting them. Yeah. Mr. Terrific in a way, his debut almost was in that movie. You had seen them in comic books. Yeah. He had been around. But as far as like, this is a Superman ally that you have to continue with. Yeah. Do you feel pressure at all? I mean, it's parallel to a question that Charles just asked, but like now what I'm really trying to say is the spotlight is there and people are going, okay, what are you going to do? Yeah. I mean, I think there's pressure with anything when it comes like making like being like the first introduction back into something, but also like pressure does make diamonds. I think we can all speak like this industry is can be very stressful in its own ways. I think about this all the time and like 10 years ago when like marble first started like cooking like they were cooking cooking cooking. Yeah. And like my mom knows what an infinity stone is like. That's crazy. That's crazy. That's so nuts that people know what the damn it. They know what the soul stone. They know that Mr. Terrific news is spheres. Right. Like that's just like it's I guess an actual benefit to have that cultural shorthand. Like I think like many things now like we've been now we've been watching TV for like a hundred something years like we're you like people the audience like the layman isn't really the layman anymore like they have an understanding of like what story is and how different media. Has different ways of telling stories so like I think it's a benefit to have someone come and be like all right, I know James guns Mr. Terrific. Like I want to read the Mr. Terrific comment book so that the same way that like people would you know maybe they've watched the static TV show like or they've seen him in like some of the other DC movies like animated movies and stuff they come in with like I understand like I don't have to read his Wikipedia page like I know. controls electricity like I know he has a family sometimes he's 15 sometimes a little bit older like I think that's actually a very easy um that's actually does a lot of heavy lifting for for for for me my perspective as a writer like how many times you need to read an origin story of like Peter Parker like how many times you need to see the Wayans walk down that alley like it's called crime alley what are we doing like we've all got that so we can sort of my benefit my I think the benefit is that you can like jump into it like you understand the setting the places are set you know who's here you know this the the tables have set now we can get into like the actual story and get into what the what eventually the book will be so I'm not trying to be mr radical or get you in trouble but yeah obviously what you doing statics definitely doing vixed as a lifelong comic book fan I'm like okay but when we're gonna let more black creators touch like Batman or like as someone who's in the room are you like no that's obviously like you want to play with the big toys as well like yeah I mean I it was it's so I felt like I've had a very strange career from the comic book side because like the two characters I want to write I wanted to write four miles in Deadpool and like I got those like basically off jump so you're dream off jump yeah which is great but you know you're like it's like suffering from success is like no now like I've done what I want to do like now what do I would do it like well how do I challenge myself like how do I be scared like I fight or fight how do I activate that creative like fight or fight mode yeah and with this like you know yeah it's very scary because one I've never worked for DC before I'm coming into a universe that like I haven't really kept up with outside of like the absolute line so like that's very scary in a good way um but as far as like you know the big character is like I think it does help to put in perspective like Stephanie loves vixen like she's worked on this book for like two years when we first met two or three years ago she's like man I would love to do a vixen but so like what can I ask how does she even get to the point where it's like vixen is a character where it's like if you grow up with the Justice League cartoon or reading comics yeah we know who vixen is yeah can you I don't want you to talk to her Stephanie was that a boulder that she's trying to push up a hill like we we need an ongoing vixen I mean I can't speak for stuff but I just know she had such passion for it and like I this is just my um how I got into these characters like I remember um this is like the ghost go to you watching Dragon Ball Z and you see pickles like well that's a nigga that's my uncle like I think like if you see we have no representation and you see like the smallest like you sprinting your eyes representation you create it exactly it is like I think I was thinking about this now and your last night like well for so long you see these characters like Clark Clark clan or Steve Steve Rogers and like you understand like the makeup of the character you got squinted a bit like already he's like good person like he's about having you know no biases like he's a good person like get a squint and like you know it goes out of focus and you like kind of put yourself in there I think the benefit of this is like now we can have our eyes all the way open like oh I I don't have to squint to see this like Picasso type painting like this is the real thing and it looks like me it sounds like me it looks like my family now I already have that like connection like just like the color of the color of skin and texture of hair the way that we class the way that we wear change whatever I think seeing that makes it a little bit easier for us to get in there so like I don't know for Stephanie but if it was like me like I saw miles and I remember being so like trying with like joy like oh this looks like my cousin Donovan yeah and that is so important so like I could see like I didn't again I don't want to speak for Steph but like I could see a world where she's like yo this character's always been like my Batman or my Wonder Woman or whatever and like I now my goal is like I want to make everyone realize like how important it was for me how it can be important for everyone at least that's what my that's what I my thought is and now a character like that is just like one television a movie portrayal away yeah from being on the level that they weren't before yeah I mean I gotta be honest with you guys before 2008 or 2009 2000 whenever it came out nobody give a fuck about Black Widow like that yeah she was cool that's like she was like she was a cool character yeah like give it vision a TV show I'm just gonna say like she was a cool character like if you had silver sable or black cat or you get those characters I think cool characters are part of the thing but I mean black cat and you know we'll see what what what happens in the future the Spider-Man itself but those characters now are like legitimate like main stream like black widow's a big deal yeah and I have great books now I have great but Kelly Thompson's black widow is one of the best things I've ever read like obviously no Matt factions and Dave Iias like Hawkeye like it's so good I think based a TV show off of it so to your point I'm sorry I mean to cut your off but you're so excited about is that like right the point now we're like the books are caught up like now people like I said people know who Hawkeye they know who both Hawkeyes are like they know who they know that we're at the point now we have two Falcons like we know like widow yeah we have we have we have legacy characters in the same show so like that's real that's mean that's really exciting as a common book creator not just like writer but also a reader is like oh we can see the different types of these like now we have but the fact that we have a US agent in a movie that works you that's what a pool yeah US agent the off-brain captain america that was like that that will have popped up in you the old that's not captain america that's US agent the fact that US agent is now and this is this and and I'm not I'm not meaning to disparage any of these characters when I say what I'm trying to say is that now you legitimately have a a beautiful on-ramp mix in or for static yeah or I'm waiting for Bishop to get his goddamn moment yeah like for all of these characters now the bishop's there I like Bishop like all of these characters are there for them to be like main things we've seen it happen yeah so this is the point this is the time yeah I mean it's a I think it's a great great moment for for sequential art in general but like I think about like what absolute line is doing like they're all bangers but they are all so we deeply weird in the best way possible like I could like if you're telling me that there's a martian manhunter book that makes your brain melt when you read it like or that like you know what are one book is it's it's incredible like she has a spoilers but she has like a magic arm that disappears and chases a sword that gets as big it's it's just so I like the Superman one I think it's they're all bangers I think I think there's I think the Superman one is an incredibly subversive yeah take on super class yeah Clark clan is like the last time we've had a lot where it's like everybody can have their own favorite book yeah yeah and it's exciting dude like I've you know I've been lucky to work in comic this seems crazy and it's like four or five years and now it's like it's very hard to read comics that for fun like it's like a little bit oh I'm doing this for research and maybe the same for you guys when you watch TV and movies sometimes like oh I'm here but like part of me is like partitioned to be like this is work so like yeah it's very fun to be in a place where I can read something for fun which I haven't been able to do it a very long time is there is there anything that you obviously it's all storytelling yeah you learn from the TV side of doing she-hulk or future I'm a and then going and doing a static book or a Miles book or writing Deadpool like is there a TV writer side of your brain and a comic book because they're different mediums but they yeah yeah um I'm so glad you asked that because I've been thinking about a lot for the past couple years and that like so I came from TV first and it's all about collaboration comedy rooms like I can't speak for drama I've never done drama but like from comedy side it's so collaborative like you don't you're not precious about anything like the process is for those who don't know is that you write your script and you come back and then every single one in the person that room we read it line by line and we make it better so like I enter into the comedy process being like oh I'm not I'm not an artist like I'm an habitual storyteller like there's no way that I'm going to outright um Justin Mason or Federico Byzantini like I'm not an editor like when you like working with editors being like oh I have to see like what this is going to be someone this is someone already says editor always says this is always going to be someone's first issue whether there's issue one issue 17 issue 42 so there's a way that you have to collaborate with everyone to make it make sense and I really thrive off that like I love the idea of coming in together and be like oh how can I make this um if I'm if like you're like Stephanie Williams like how can I what can I do in my book to make your book stronger like what can I do in your book to make your book stronger like I only want I like the collaborative aspect of it um so like I come into these things thinking about that but then also um when it just comes to structure like I've been lucky you know I uh Rick and Morty is a very specifically structured show um without getting into the minutia of it like it's just it's did harming create a very specific type of writing style which I think is very yes the whole he talks about the whole yes the circle all that yeah yeah yeah and like that's very helpful for like mythology and comic books is our our like modern day mythology so it's very easy for me to like put that into that but also for the comic book side you know there are moments when like I've had editors when I first started being like it's a comic book you could have them have a laser gun that shrinks you down or like I struck that turns into a submarine like you can you can lean into the fun of the medium and like my first couple of issues like I thought everything in a very structural and like modern sense but like no there's a nigga with four robotic arms right and his name is Dr. Octopus right you know like you can lean into that fun and like don't be afraid to chase that fun so like it's it's been very fun mirroring mirroring mirroring mirroring yes yes those two we always together yeah yeah I got one last question man was good there's only one episode of television that I feel like to be erased from human thought and existence never to be showed or referenced again and that's an episode of television called Jurassic Park oh yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm legitimately getting emotional right yeah yeah dog that's too sad bro yeah yeah like I know like that's too sad and like sometimes when I get if you guys don't know the episode of Futurama you guys know the episode I've talked about it before sometimes when I get really bummed out about it I go watch subsequent episodes of Futurama where the dog is back yeah yeah yeah because they have different versions of like the timeline where he's back with the dog yeah yeah I got to do something you got talk to your friends over there yeah yeah you got to do something something to, like, undue Jurassic Park. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not a trauma. - I can't believe that that happened in that timeline. I can't wrap my mind. That's too sad, bro. - I know, look, in my interview, they were talking about like, we were talking with our Sherwin or David and Matt, the creator of all these shows. And I was like, I'm a realty, like, that's actually like my favorite episode. - Oh, I love it. - You know what I'm saying? - It's like, it's my favorite episode of the TV or Jurassic Park and Pickle Rick. And I think they're very similar in that Pickle Rick. He turns himself into a pickle. He's like, fighting through rats and making like an Iron Man mech suit. He ends up in this weird, like, Eastern European, like diplomatic building. It's all very insane. Like the last four minutes, it's just him having a very real grounded conversation with his family's therapist because he's not there as a grandpa. And that's the same way that I thought about Jurassic Park. Like, oh, it's this fun adventure. We go back a time we're seeing Fry's Dog. And then the last two minutes is just the most saddest grounded piece of media. - It's not even sad. Like, I'm literally about to cry. It's not sad. Sad is like, oh, me, my friends, I got all summer and then I have to go away to college. - He got to go to college, yeah. - Exactly. - You know, like that's sad, that's sad. Like the end of the fucking stand by me, we were never together like that again. - Yeah. - Into this, the sand line. Oh, this was us for this one major summer and one guy went on the plate. That's sad. This is a Greek tragedy of every proportions. As we have to watch that poor pup go to meet his master every single day and then pass away, never seeing his owner again, his best friend. Why is that your favorite episode of the show? - I don't, I like pain, I guess. I don't know. - I'm okay. - I'm working here. - I got to tell you. - All right, my last question. 'Cause I always, I always want to ask people, you like, you was. So you worked at Marvel, you worked as DC as a writer. What's the difference is? I mean, everyone says this, but I think that, I mean, Stanley always said Marvel's the world outside your window, that's why it takes place. Mostly in like real places. So like, I do enjoy that aspect of like, you know, you go to New York, you walk around Brooklyn, you see people, you see how they talk, this is how they dress. It's just something about going into the city and like, you know what I mean, I'm not gonna give my skill about New York. But like, is it very, one of those specifics is we're like, you fill the city when you get into it. Like, I'm not from there, but like, when I go in there, like, I look at the size creepers and sometimes I'm like, oh man, what would be like if like, human torch, like, blades and past, the crayons are building on it. That's a kid, 'cause I like, I live in New York, you think about like, oh, well, Spider-Man could be swinging from that building. You see, like, yeah, what is it? Yeah, like, that's really cool. Like, I always think about that. So what the major difference for me is that like, if I want to understand what Riri Williams like, I can just catch a flight to Chicago and like, walk around. Right, which is fun. And like, on the flip side with DC is like, oh, we have an idea of what Gotham is like, it's scary. Like, that's like, so like, I think you have a lot of freedom, like, you're not tied down to reality, but like, there is something that I really enjoy by the tech talent of like, the West Coast Avengers who live in LA, like that. That's something very funny about like, I can drive to like, you know, Silver, like, and maybe see. What I've moved to LA, I was just like, yeah, it is. Yeah, this thing, you don't need an Avengers theme. They don't feel the same, but even just like working with, do they have different, like, ethos in terms of just like, oh, over here, our books are kind of like this and that DC is different or no. I think they just share about story, like that. I mean, they really care about like, story and character and like, I grant, I'm very new at DC, but like, I feel like something that I love about both companies that so far is that like, they just, they run with the idea. Like, if you like, you have a really fun idea and I see that it activates you in like a very primal, fun way. Chase that, like, chase that whimsy, like, push whimsy, like, chase that, fall your bliss. And like, I find that very comforting, comforting as someone coming to DC for the first time. 'Cause I'm like, oh my god, like, I'm a new kid in school. Are they gonna bully me? It pushed me into like a locker, that fucking Batman owns. But no, they're very chill. And like, I loved that. My first book was at Marvel, was like Spider-Punk. They gave, honestly, it's probably too much freedom, like, right, whenever you want to. That's the exact same energy I'm having right now with static and like, I loved that. Like, I, as a creator, like, that fulfills me with such joy. - Man, how, yeah, thank you so much. - Of course, thanks for having me, bro. - Appreciate you, bro. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)