Robbie Bent and the Cult of Othership

Could we even get open? We're out of money. Construction. People are walking off the job. Like living in a European guy's house, in like the woods. If you want to create brand fanatics, you have to come a lot. Like Karate Kid, but for Saunas, and we look at dropping a new class, like dropping an album. Today we are graced with the presence of Robbie Bent, who is the co-founder and I guess cult leader behind other ship. Robbie has a long history building with teams like Ethereum and has kind of revolutionized the bathhouse space in New York over the last few years in Toronto as well. So thank you, Robbie. Thanks for joining us, Robbie. What made you want to become a cult leader? Yes, that's the reaction. I think it is really wanted to create emotional experiences for people like the feeling of when you see somebody having a peak experience, like there's nothing like it. And so the first thing that comes to mind is these psychedelic medicine experiences post they have the group shares. And when I started doing this stuff about eight years ago, it was really new for me. And when I realized it's like people don't share real emotions in daily life. Like to see somebody being human, it's almost impossible. And so I think it's important to have in every life through reality as there's like a ton of unpleasant moments. And so I think like honoring those and like giving space to feel those is like really powerful. So I think yeah, just creating space where you can like deeply feel is like very, very interesting. And it's fun to try to set a tapestry that's going to get that out of people. Do you remember the first time someone created a space like that for you? Was this one of those psychedelic trips or was this like in your childhood? I'm just so curious because obviously this had such a profound impact on you. So yeah, it was in Israel. It didn't speak Hebrew. I'm not Jewish. I was like, what the fuck am I doing here? You know, like sometimes I got no friends, so I had to start from scratch. And so I lived there for about a year. And that's where did the Vipassana and that led to psychedelic medicines. So somebody on that retreat was just like, hey, do you want to come and try LSD? Like on this campus of the school at like 6 a.m. I never really experimented with like real psychedelics before. So we went, I went and drove up and darkness. We went into the woods and like took acid and like just in the woods with these people that didn't really speak English. And that was like interesting, but not like life changing. Right, you didn't hit that connective piece. No, it was just like an interesting time, but it wasn't like, wow, this changed my life. And so through that, learned about ayahuasca, went to Peru with the intention of like, I want to quit drug use. Through that was very challenging times for ceremonies. That was really hard for me. I'm like, very scared of psychedelics. I'm not like, fucking, let's go. Whoa, I wouldn't have guessed that based on-- Yeah, actually hate them. And so yeah, yeah, like really like if we were going to like take LSD together, I'd have to like go put out blindfold and like sit in another room. Wait, can you tell me why? I'm actually very scared. It just starts to make me feel very uncomfortable. Like all these things start coming up on my thought patterns. And I start being like, you know, are they going to like me? Am I supposed to say something? I start feeling really weird. It's my medicine for you. It's not like a fun thing. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I can't like I could never, like my nightmare would be like, if you're like, hey, let's go to concert tonight and take like five rounds of the show. So I'd be like, no, like, I'm not going to do it. So I'll have to do it like a low now or in a group like a blindfold. And I know I can just like have a mental breakdown on my own. And but they're very beneficial for me, but I don't like them. And some people I always look and people love them. And I'm like, is there something wrong with me? Is that like, there's something wrong with my person? I can't do them, right? And so but I've had, so I went and did the sidewalks goes really hard. It was like feeling like something like this drag edition was like ripped out of my soul. And after that, I was like, okay, I'm never going to drink again and I haven't. And so that's like eight, nine years ago. Did you have any other sort of program like AA or anything else that you want? I tried cocaine anonymous. And I went there and I just, it wasn't like, I went and it was like in the basement of a church. And I'm like, I remember one person was like, yeah, I was praying and I was smoking crack in the hospital. And then I felt like it came my turn to share. And I was like, yeah, I like did some lines of coke like I'm not like, I'm not a hardcore addict enough. And like I still kind of feel like I wasn't and but it was like ruining my life and was unhealthy and I was not like not enough of an addict. There's no place. Exactly. And then I felt also like when I went there, there was something wrong with me. Um, so what worked for me was just psychedelics and then bath houses. And that's that's like, how'd you first discover bath houses? So I came back from this psychedelic experience. I was like talking to my wife on Instagram while I was traveling. And I was like, were you married at this point? I didn't even like really nor were like friends. We'd sat together. Our friends house together out of wedding. She posted something on Instagram. I kind of like tripped it and we just started talking. It was like a, oh, that's very sweet. She's a master's in science nutritionist like really into health. And she was just like, hey, I've been listening around a Patrick. I've heard about these ice baths. We should try it. Like it feels like I know you don't drink. We should do this thing. So we Google searched, found this place southwestern bathhouse in the outskirts of Toronto, drove all the way out there traditional Russian bathhouse, you know, ice bath, no phone, sauna, amazing time because you're kind of like doesn't really matter what you wear. You're in bathing suit. And then you're not on your phone and then like the neurochemicals in your brain. Right. You don't feel insecure. You don't feel any worries. It's not like all one we're going to say. And so we that became part of our routine every single week. It's every week. Yeah, for like four years. And before COVID, we built in my backyard. We were like, oh, we should just build a healthy community. And I was ice bathing all the time. So built a nice bath by hand in my backyard. The five of us and every night we would just, one of us would be out there, towels for free. And you could just drop in and that's also use your ice bath. It was free. And there was like a WhatsApp chat. So like WhatsApp is like a big part of our brand and company. And so every I was going to say, do you kick back for this because you mentioned every city we go and we set up like a way to talk to the community. Have people talk to each other and like create friendships. I think that's like really important in brand building. I feel like you guys like started with community and friendship at the core of it. Exactly. And so it wasn't really ever a bathhouse product. It was more like, how do you make people make friends and just happens. Bathhouse is a good platform. It was always more of a clubhouse than like a train. It facilitates the end product, which is the relationships. Exactly. And then so we're doing that. So you're in your backyard and like a homemade ice cold plug. Yeah. And it grew to 300 people in the summer. And people are just dropping in. So in the WhatsApp, you could be like, Oh, I'm going to 4 p.m. Who wants to go and people are there and there's like coffee and there's towels. There's a fire going. And like I just for me, I was like back in Toronto worried about getting back into drugs. Didn't really have any friends. All my friends live in San Francisco and Berlin. So it was like a different crew. And I was like, Oh, I love to meet some people that are into this stuff. And it was just like, Hey, maybe we'll meet some good friends from this. And like, maybe we'll also test if people want it. And so we did that. It grew. Wintercombs. Too cold. So we looked, there was, I was renting a house and had like a woodworking space in the garage that was unused. So just like a whole bunch of like junk in this like three car garage. I asked the owner like, Hey, can we like rent that and like do something with it? And she was like, Yeah, like it's okay. Well, we don't permit. Just don't care. So we didn't put a sauna ice bath and like a tea room. We built my hand and we're like, okay, well, if it's just for us, like fucking awesome. Right. So we did that. We opened that group of thousand members just through word of mouth. So every day, like 50, 60 people are coming in. Wow. It was in that space that we realized like we don't actually want to do a bathhouse. We want to do something more spectacular. And so we started bringing in landmark and Hoffman and breathwork and psychedelic like show and programing specifically for exactly. And first it was just like, Oh, you'd come and be like, Oh, ice bath inflammation. Yeah. White blood cells and then people are like, great, it's healthy. I get it. Yeah. So what do I do here? And so then I go first ritual around. Well, our first intro that was some ritual was like setting an intention and it was like 15 minutes long. And so now we're like, Hey, like people all this attention is bad. So we'd have you like, when we got in, we started doing stuff like Harry would have his essential oils from a sauna training and we'd be like, Oh, I wonder if we pour them on your hands and you smell them. Like what happens? That was a lot of experimentation. There was no idea that classes were even a thing. So this was all a trial and error. Yeah, just just what happened one day. There was a Valentine's day and Harry was like, Oh, let's do like a triple date. And so some friends came over. It was us and he was like, Oh, let's go in the cold plush together as a couple. And we're like cold plush together. Like, I don't know what that was like a thing you can do. So we'd go like together and like I guess with the player like really deep. And then after the I guess like a melting hug sinking your breath. And then you went in the sauna and we do like a guided massage. So two minutes you would massage your partner. And then everyone would share their first date story and then everyone would share like the best moment in the relationship. And then everyone starts crying and we're like, Whoa, what's happening here? This is crazy. Like this is like pretty deep emotional stuff from just sauna ice bath. And so okay, that's cool. And like next week had a bunch of guys over and we tried this thing called the desert storm. And so it was like, it was like how hard can you push yourself in the sauna? So it was three 20 minutes on his back to back with like each one getting hotter. And the third one was in the complete darkness. And so then it was in the darkness. We were like, okay, let's like sweat lodge style like a done time of scales before us. It's like, let's do share like what are you struggling with? And so first person shares, next person shares. And then I'm like, let's like scream it out. So we're just screaming in the dark, which is now become. We were too nice last week. We got to be screaming this week. Yeah, but I saw that like the guys there with my friends from finance and like, you know, like one of them's crying and he's like, I'm not feeling, I'm feeling like I'm missing out on being with my daughter. And I'm just like, okay, that's crazy to hear this in this context. And then we go from the sauna, this three triple sauna. So you're like crawling out into an ice bath in the dark with like a giant scream. And so that was so popular that we're like, well, there's like, you can really do interesting stuff in this modality. People want the ritual. Exactly. Yeah. And then it became like, okay, it's not even a sauna ice bath space. It's more of like a space to do ritual where these elements turn something in your brain that you're even open to it. Because if I said to you, hey, like drive across town and like do a loving kindness meditation with an idea of the stranger, you're like, I'll never fucking do that ever. No, I would never sit in the conference center to like, exactly. So as the issue of landmark knowledge, so you need to switch your state to get people into a more emotional way of being. And so that was like an earned secret that just came from like fucking around in the garage. So when we did that, we're like, oh, well, maybe it's not a bathhouse. Maybe it's like a nicer version of this. That's classes. And then in Toronto, one of my friends, my partners, he was like, oh, I want to build a bathhouse like Southwest that we always go to. But it was just a bathhouse. There wasn't like really anything special about it. It was just like, oh, and I thought, oh, this could be a cool side project. If you talk about like synchronicities, my aunt is a designer and we're like, oh, we're think we're going to do this bathhouse. And she's like, oh, so weird. My friends, kids have hired me to build a bathhouse also. I was like, what? And so we end up going for coffee. And Harry and Amanda had just done a retreat that week. We didn't know each other. So we go for a coffee. And they just were like really open and we just immediately like both felt it and we're like, yeah, let's do it together. Yeah. And so then we spent like a year and a half researching bathhouses. So Harry and Amanda lived in Europe and we're like trained sauna masters. Then between the five of us. What does that process look like? Sorry, actually, I don't know. It's like living in a European guy's house in like the woods. And like, like, it's like the karate kid. Because I mean, so much of what happens is so choreographed that I was curious if there's what the art is. Yeah, it's the karate kid, but first on is. And like, you're living in the, you know, chopping the wood in the forest to like make the venec. So it's making venec. It's the art of tail waving. It's essential oils and rum with therapy. Oh my god. Sm other treatments. It's like spa and steam treatment. So they did that for, I don't know, six months, something like that. And we've all been like obsessed with bathing in bath houses. So we spent a whole bunch of time trying to figure out a mega space, like 13,000 square feet. You knew you wanted to be that large out the gate. Yeah, because we were just like, oh, it's a bathhouse. And that's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're like, oh, it's going to have the sauna pool, all the stuff. Yeah, hot tub. Yeah, exactly. So we got into that. And then I was like, shit, or we like, we thought it was going to cost like two and a half million dollars. That's what a construction guy told us. And so we're like, he's like, I can build it for this. No problem. So we almost signed a lease. We came to bathhouse in New York, met with those guys. And they're like, you need to go bigger. So we delayed signing the lease and like, thank God, because two months later, and so we would have been like fully bankrupt. And also, even if it would have went forward, like now knowing what I know would have been like minimum seven million dollars. At least. Yeah. So it's like so dumb. I would have been bankrupt. So another just lucky thing. We've had a few friends make the jump from like Toronto to New York. Yeah, very specifically Toronto. And most of them haven't done so successfully. It hasn't translated. Whereas what you guys did, I feel like has had an incredible amount of success here. I think it's like one of the best brick and mortar launches of all time and considering the budget, we only spent a dollar on marketing. No, I mean, really? Yeah. I didn't know that. Go into a little bit more about like the approach you guys had pre-launched, I mean, the permit issues and the way you used the space prior to launch. I think. Yeah. So even before that, like we were doing these underground breathwork concerts. And so we would do them in our garage. Yeah. So we kind of built a lot of lore of like these breathwork concerts that may have been assisted in some ways. And so we just kind of made up that. And so we're doing that for fun. We always like to create music and breathwork sessions, which then like that was just for fun. And we build an app. Yeah, music is a big part of. Yeah, it's huge. And so my partner, Harry, like he picks like every song on every playlist. Well, it has to be like, yeah, so every playlist, like guides and people can nominate songs, but they have to be chosen. And there's like nine of the chief curator. Yeah. And so it's just to ensure like the vibe is tight. The classes themselves, the music is is pretty selected. There's no like leeway there to change. Because we just really want to create like a very uniform experience that when you come in, it's like an other ship class. We've seen people try to do this in Toronto, business ended up failing, and they would just let anyone come on, come on, do whatever you want. I think it just leads to like not a tight experience. Yeah, you don't have like a self-slip community as much. And it's way different in this experience because it's more like a performance. So it's you're not exercising. You're watching. And so if like it's not top tier, you're going to be bored. Yeah. And so and then also not only that, you can't watch one performance over and over and over and over. So you need variety. And if when you have variety, you also want to have uniformity and quality that people expect. And so it's very hard to have 28 guides all creating their own thing. And when you come in, you're trying to see multiple guides, because if you just go to the same guide every time the same class, especially at scale when you're now multiple. It's actually an amazing observation to recognize that this almost had to become theater at a certain point. Yeah, I told the story today. There's a woman in Toronto and she came down and end of class and she's just saying like, Hey, I'm actually here. My son, I thought six months ago, he was going to die. Oh my god. And we did this test that I could give him an organ. And there was a 1% chance that it would work. And I found out like two months ago that I'm a match. And I've actually come to Toronto doing this other ship class that I'm going to give him an organ after class. And so like everyone's crying. And it's just a moment where you feel like, wow, empathy for this person. Oh my god. I don't feel those feelings daily or I'm not like attuned to them. And so that's like a major example. It wasn't like when we started, but just the idea that you have a space to be seen and heard and then facilitating those spaces. It's like very special. Another example that comes to mind is like, I was really struggling last year in the summertime. You know, like, could we even get open? We're out of money. The construction people are walking off the job. And I was crying in the street. And so my, I like, you're allowed to do that in New York. It's fair to say. All day like one in every three breaths. Like every time I get super stressed, I like start vaping. And I'm like, fuck again. And so I'm in the street. And my wife's like, you were like a black cloud like following us around like me and my son like, get your fucking shit together. So I went to California, did a psychedelic journey, which I'll do. Like I didn't do it since he was born. And I've had a path where like, oh, these are amazing. Then I'm like, oh, they're not needed. It's too much. And so, you know, it was two and a half years. And I started to kind of go crazy a bit. And she's like, you should go and like, do something. So I went to LA, did an MDMA and psilocybin ceremony. Yeah. Came back, felt like ready. And I'm going out to get a coffee. And I come back and this girl's like, Robbie, like, there's a problem. And I was like, well, it's like, come upstairs. And my wife is on the front porch with my son fully passed out. Like what? Like unconscious. She's pouring water on him. And he's naked because she's stripped him. And he's like, turning blue. And I just totally froze. Like, I was like, is he dead? And so he had a seizure. He was dehydrated. And I guess this happens to infants, but like, we're new parents. We don't, right. And we don't know anything about this. And so they called the police and ambulance. Ambulance came on the street in Brooklyn. Oh my god. And they took him and like, put a little baby mask on him. And I was like, literally thinking like, is he going to die? And super, like, I just froze. My wife was like, total champion. And we went to the hospital with him. And he was like, totally okay. So it wasn't an issue, but the experience itself, like the level of feeling. When I think about the human experience that like, I can remember it so visibly and like the intensity of being alive. And so not that I'd wish a bad experience. And thank God, like, nothing happened. But it's just like I felt so deeply about that moment, like my, my, my love, my fear. And so then I was just thinking you're like, Oh, imagine like going to war with that. It's like, you know, and so just, I think it's very interesting to create spaces where there's like depth, any motion and feeling pleasant or unpleasant. Yeah. I feel like when, when I was at Equinox, and even that dinner with Scott, who's a mutual friend of ours last night, had my talent in training is always probably the hardest thing to scale for a lot of these businesses. Yeah. Did you guys have advice from anybody on that? Yeah. So I reached out to the head of talent at SoulCycle. We did some consulting with her. Very smart. She was helping. I reached out to the head of talent at Berries. So, you know, sort of the best tube boutique fitness places. So first we started with come one, come all. Then we moved to, oh, we should hire people from fitness. And generally that's proven to be a mistake. Fitness in yoga. Sometimes it works out. So it's a generalization. But a lot of people have these habits of how a fitness in yoga class should be. How they speak, how they prefer. Exactly. And our language is not that. So we're very much. What bad habit if you see it or you like, you might not have that habit. So like, if you might say, like, hey, let's all align them. The third chakra, like, no, like our experience actually isn't really, like, if you have a meditation practice, great. Our experience is built for people that are stressed professionals that are living a normal life. That's like the average person can come in and not feel put off. And so to do that, they need to know that there's like science behind this. And it's been researched. And they need to, like, what we've chosen to dive deep into is emotion because motion's universal. So everyone knows like, hey, think about somebody feel you felt loved to before. Like that is universal per person. So we've really stuck to those elements as a kind of what makes our brand. But it's been very difficult with some guides that are have very certain language. And also, it's like, hey, you're a master in your craft. You've been teaching over 15 years. This is a whole new thing. Right. Do you have formats of sentences or certain wording? Or I just think anything that you're like, this is very much an other ship. Yeah. So when you learn a new class, for example, like, let's talk gratitude. So gratitude is new class be dropped. And we look at dropping a new class, like dropping an album or a single. And so legitimately, it took like 200 hours to build that class. And so Harry started with the gratitude podcast from Andrew Huberman. He then read every single paper reference in that podcast. He then looked at the science of like how gratitude is actually built in the body. And so there's a number of different ways that's done, which we looped into exercises that would be in the class. Then it's like selecting the specific songs for that class, the specific oils that like go to each emotion. Then training the guides who then need to perform it. Then auditing them a number of times. Then getting feedback from them. Because when you start as with anything like your first product is not good. And so I think people don't realize they get embarrassed. Like, oh, it's not good. But like, of course, it's not good. The only way it gets better. Exactly. Exactly. So there's, we have a like rigorous, we have a, you know, we have director of guides, lead guides, mentor guides, eight levels of guidechip. So you start in, you know, you're a navigator, you graduate to magic maker, you graduate to Alchemist, graduate to otherworldly. And like determines like, you know, which class times you get, your pay, all the stuff. Wow. So that's all been built over time. Like when we started, we didn't have any of that. But so a guide will get this entire script, the playlist. They'll be memorizing the script as if it's acting. And then they'll practice it. And then they'll get to give feedback on like where they think it can improve. So like the level of detail put into this, like I just don't understand how you can, the only thing we're in the business of providing is experience. How can you outsource like the show you're providing? That's insane. It's like, imagine like you're directing a play and you're like, Hey, I'm just going to hire someone else to direct the play. Like it doesn't make any sense. So I think we're like very much into excellence and detail. And then also creating culture that like the guides feel super empowered to perform and hold space. Yeah. And I think they really resonate with the idea of like using language that is based in parts work, psychotherapy, things, you know, in terms of holding space, going into your emotions, feeling what's coming up, pleasant and unpleasant emotions, not judging them. We also were very much our guides are a mirror. And so we're very against coaching. And so yeah, so like fitness traditionally, two thousand times, like fitness is like, you got this, let's go, push it, get motivated. And like giving advice. And some people love that. But our particular brand is a mirror question is like, it's just, Hey, you know, I'm exactly. So it's like, I'm feeling very upset. This, this, this happened. It's not, Oh, we should go home and journal for five minutes and then do this. It's just like, Oh, it sounds like you're upset. Just reflective listening. So like, that is a big skill. Because we feel someone might come in who's 22, some might come in who's 77, some might be going through a divorce. Like, who do you as the guide? Like, you're not in a position to give advice most of the time. I think the best thing. I don't know that anyone is really qualified to give advice ever. So it's just very nice to like make someone feel heard. And then like, is what is most important? Who would you say other sheep is foreign? Who it's not for? Oh, that's a good one. Well, I see. Like, it's a communal experience. And so if you're, if the thought of like looking a stranger in the eyes during a loving kindness class, yeah, freaks you out, then like, it might not be for you. But however, there are other classes that don't have that level of emotional. So we think of it like a triangle. There's like down classes, which are like body-based. So deep stretch and body. You don't have to go emotional on those ones journey through the senses. There's up classes, which are more like a party. So like call and response, dance party, people singing, stuff like that. And they're more like you can to like a fitness energy, like really high energy. And there's all around classes, which are like our signature, but they're intense. So gratitude is one loving kindness, acceptance, emotions, A to Z. These are all classes where you're like potentially going into things that feel challenging in your life or in your past, feeling those emotions in your body. And those are like people that do those classes really commit to the brand and like feel into the brand. So they have the biggest experiences. If you're not into like feeling into your emotions and sharing, it might not be for you. So every class at the end, we have a share, which is like the most important part of the class. It's like there's no spaces to feel vulnerable. And so even if you just see three people share, it's like amazing. It can change my whole day to see people like be human. So I think some people they'll be like, well, you know what the fuck can go share, bro. It's like, okay, well, it's not for you. Yeah, you know, we've chosen very specifically to be a barefoot space. Very specifically. Yeah. So no spas or barefoot before us. I've never really seen one. I never thought about that. Yeah. And so we just found that the, and this is like anal, but the sound of the slippers on the floor, I hate it. And everyone just leaves their slippers everywhere. And so you don't know which ones are yours. And there's a hundred pairs of slippers and makes the space look dirty. Super messy. But some people are like, that's disgusting. I'm not going barefoot. So it's like, okay, well, and we have brought in, we've created a new coal plunge slippers that you can wear. They're branded. We don't allow outside shoes. And like sometimes people will get upset. That's probably like the biggest complaint is that like it's barefoot. And so like, okay, it's not for you. Yeah. It's also crowded. And so like what we offer, the highest quality materials like in the city for basically any build in terms of like price point, incredible hospitality and training. So our staff is like incredibly trained and a very accessible price point. So for a spa like experience, if you're coming a lot at $45, it's like, that's like the price of like two coffees in New York. So however, exactly 75 minutes to two hours. So the difference though is that where we give, like, you can't offer all that. There's a give is that it's 75 minutes. There's only two features, which is the best son of the best coal plungeist. But so like, there's no steam. There's no hot tub. And then it's crowded. You know, if you come to a busy class, there's a lot of people. And so you can get around that by coming during the day. But if you come in a weekend or evening, it's crowded. And so there's people who are like, I want a traditional spa. I want more features. Great. Great. Good for you. Yeah. And there's people who are like, I want to spend more time. And so great. Good for you. And so we've just chosen to be the best at like these emotional classes. And like, I think it's important to be accessible because if you want to create brand fanatics, you have to come a lot. Yeah. Can you talk to me about where the name came from and then how that culminated in? Yeah, it's a fucking crazy story. So we initially, we had the backyard. And we're like, okay, we're going to have a website where people can like schedule. What do we call it? And so we're like, put it, just put a Google sheet together. I'm like, hey, come on, come on. Who's got the best name? And in word was the name that we chose. Really? So we're all like in word and we loved it. And we just loved it. And like every time you hear a podcast, someone would be like, you know, I just was going through and I had to go inward. And you're like, we can claim that. We can claim that. And so the person I work with her name, Sarah Dobson, I think she's like one of the best in the world. She used to work for a pentagram. Yeah, absolutely. And like naming logo, you know what's her? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it just, I love Sarah. And like, she's been a friend and she's a friend of her in Amanda's before and she's spent like a year as a customer. And she's like, guys, you got to change the name. Like in word is not, like, it sounds like innards. And also doesn't mean anything. Like you're going inward. Why? And this is like, yeah, a social social space. And she, like, she does this hat test. We're like, does it look cool on a hat? Would you wear the hat? And it's like, no, you know, like, doesn't mean anything. And so we, but we're so in love with everything that was around it in the space. And there's five of us and we're like, we're never going to like, what are we? We're like a breathwork app. We're like the space. Like, how are we going to name this thing? And so she came up with a bunch of naming treatments. We're like going through them. And we see like, oh, it's so easy to say. It's not like you can own that. It's not, there's nothing. But it's like, it's memorable. Yeah. Let me send it to like 10 people. Every single person. Terrible idea. Just the text. Like in a text, what do you think of this name? Every single one. So we're like, okay, we got to go back to the drawing boards. We kept looking again. Other names thinking about it. And like, legit, Harry and Amanda, after we chose that, got on a call with friends on a Zoom. And they're like, hey, we have to just tell you like, this is the biggest mistake you will ever make. Like this name is seriously. They were like, this name is terrible. Like, we can't get behind it. You guys can't do this. And then she's like, now like, I can't believe it's like my biggest regret in life that I said this to you guys. It just sounded weird. Like with no, it's so different because you guys now know it with the logo. And then how we got around to it was like, we're like, okay, well, at least it's so memorable that if you see it, you'll be like, like, a lot of people are like, you're already doing this weird thing that like nobody knows what it is. Why do you have to be weird with the name too? And we're like, we were new. So we're like, oh, maybe these people are right. It's hard with the stuff when you don't have your like intuition yet. So we're like, so hard to see something on paper. No, if it's going to be good, the name also like gets everything around it. So went on the darker treat, came back, and then we started to have this idea that everything we do is a journey. So we literally, our customers are called journeyers. Everything is named. Our managers are ship captains, cleaners are deck hands in front of desk or stewards. Like every single thing in our company is named. We have our own language, which is like super important. It's incredibly important for colds too. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I think any brands, like, we got this stuff, we made that up. We just saw like really good brands like talked about doing this. And so we did it as well. And like what I think is a cool way. So saw the name, people thought it was going to be weird and talked about it being a journey. And then started coming up like, oh, journey, like, okay, what are you going to journey? Like you want a ship. And then like, oh, and like, the space is a lot of wood. It's got these tiles, got a lot of water, kind of a ship vibe. And like, other feels pretty otherworldly in the space. Like, it's like a whole other world we're creating. And then so then we started being like, oh, okay. And then finally, I clicked when someone was like, well, what is other anyways? And it was like, what's like relationship, partnership, mentorship, apprenticeship, all these different ships. And so other was like, oh, it represents them all. So you're coming on the ship to journey together, but you're working on your own thing. And so you can be working on your relationship. But we're like doing it as a group. And then when that line came, we're like, fuck it. We got there. The strategies under it. So then we were like fired up. And then we're like, fuck all these people. Like, let's go with this name. I like how often you guys trust your gut and that conviction. Yeah, I think like, look, it's like when you're the user of the product, it's also built for you. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. When you guys, I want to know the mark. The mark. So the mark she came up with and it was some of the inspiration was like the dancing, uh, have you ever seen Fantasia? Yeah. Yeah. The dancing brooms. Yeah. Uh, they actually looked like that. Yeah. And then so that was like in the initial like treatment of how we did that get in there. She just, she picked like a whole bunch of different image imagery. And so it was, um, the first toy ever created in any, and it's part of all cultures is the spinning top. Yeah. And so the idea was like wellness is play for us. And like why we do everything? It's not like counting steps or bullshit macros, which I'd like to. And I'm into it. But it's like, Hey, we're going to be fun. It's going to be hard work because it's nice about it's scary, but it's also fun. And so the idea was that like wellness can be fun. And it's spinning top. It's in all cultures. And then it also looks like a ship. Yeah. There's so many things weaving together and like Harry really liked it because it looks like a puddle. Like if you press in the middle, it's like the waves, uh, coming out outwards. So it's how he thinks about it. This one is like meant to be the phases of the moon, starting from like quarter and going through. And so yeah, it was just like, it kind of encapsulated everything we're trying to do and like one word. And at this point, you were like, we're getting them all tattooed. Yeah, we thought like I was going to get more like like my wife's like, like, you want like, how many do you want? I was like, yeah, everywhere. Like, just just load me up. So my, yeah, my partner has an amazing one. He got done from this artist here on his back. It's so cool. So it's been like probably 12 tattoos at this point, I think. And like six, the co-founders and like six customers. What experience or what story do you have? I guess the first time you saw one on a customer because I imagine that has to be unbelievable. Yeah, I was pretty crazy. So super funny. So I, I, um, so I was the first one to get it. And I was like, yeah, like, that doesn't really shock me. And then again, the tattoos, which is my own, it was me. Hey. Um, and then, and then so all the co-founders did it together. And we all went like, to a tattoo shop and like did it. They all did in New York. Miles got his own on like his whole back. And then a first customer was the person I'm officiating his wedding. And so it was like a big. Wow. It was a big moment in his life that other ship stepped in for like his sobriety. And so he got it really awesome. Second one was a friend of ours. And he got it upside down. And so he actually did it the wrong way. So it's like, you know, it's, it's not this way like this side is shorter. And so he's like, he sent me the picture and he's like, oh, what do you think? And I was like, it's upside down. In the mirror. Yeah. Right set up. Yeah, but everyone sees it. Everyone seasons the wrong way. So that was pretty funny. Then there was a guy at Burning Man that Harry and Amanda were like, saw with the tattoo and they're like, hey, is that like an other ship tattoo? Like just at a random, like, you know, before in the morning, play a thing. Like, what's that tattoo? And he's like, yeah, it's another ship tattoo. Like, what do you mean? And he's like, oh, I just the breathwork app has like changed my life. And they're like, well, where are the creators? And like, guy lost his mind. And they were like, what's the chances that they like met at the burns? 80,000 people? So that was pretty epic. Then there's this guy. He's kind of like the other ship like spirit animal. Okay. His name's Ron Bat. So he used to be a club promoter. And he does like, he'll go outside with like a straw and like go under water and stay there for like 10 fucking minutes and like the middle of winter. He's done 1400 ice baths in a row, 1400 days. So he's like around Toronto. Like, and we just, we just honestly just gave him free passes for life. Yeah. To other ship. Because he's just when they're a mascot. Yeah. And he's been coming, he comes to our garage. He's been coming to the spaces. I can show you he got a full sleeve. And it's like has the word mark logo has him has him like ascending out of his body. It's got like the words free flow on it and his favorite classes. I remember seeing you posted seriously. It's incredible. Crazy. Oh, when I was like, I was like, yo, my tattoo shit. Firstly, I was like, this guy's just like, that's done up. Yeah. Like his so good. And I was so cool that like that is impacted him that much in his life that he like did that. And it's like a really sick tattoo also. I'd love to hear your point of view if there was a book or anything like that that had the biggest influence on you for how you create culture, community business. I think a lot of it is just, I would go out a lot and like talk to people a lot. And so I loved party. I own a nightclub. I would like even in Toronto when I was in like, do a lot of drugs. My partner and I own nightclubs. Always have been like super social. So just with a lot of it was just like talking to a lot of people. I just put it like, like I can go and I'll talk to 500 people in a day and be like, fuck yeah, I've got so excited. New York is the best market in the world. Like there's no question about it. It's their coolest. It's the most dense. It's the most affluent. The people are following their dreams. They're the most stressed. They're like looking for connection. They're outgoing. It's just like the best place. Yeah, there's a lot more room for you here. I just would rather just be continuing to make our product amazing. And so we're doing things now like I don't. So here's how I also think about competition. It's like everyone else is a sauna and co plunge. It is comfort inflammation, comfort recovery, comfort longevity. There's about 15 of them that have the word house in the name. Yep. Basically every single one. And then there's us, which we don't even talk about that kind of stuff. And so for me, I want to be part of culture. Yeah. So what does that mean? So, you know, 100 last week, exactly. Exactly. So blondeish, you know, massive DJ puts on a 200 person party in our tea room. People are playing dance. People are playing trunks last week. It's like a massive ray. Oh my god. And that's led to two other mega DJs that now we're talking to for the summer. And so we'll have this running every month, two times. And it's like an amazing way for us to connect with their customers in like a new way that's like sober nightlife. Then that's one part of culture. Next part of culture. It's comedy. And so I was at the comedy seller. We were celebrating something. And there was like someone wasted beside me. And it couldn't really hear the comment. And I was like, I want to hear us have two drinks like a love comment. I love comedy. I go to comedy seller. Yeah. So they came in and we tested it. We did an ice bath to start two comics in the song. Another ice bath, two comics in the song and they're like blue the house down. Like people going crazy. Like laughing so hard. Like the environment was actually perfect because the lighting is amazing. The smells are amazing. Yeah. You're getting there. Don't mean from the cold plunge. Everyone's laughing super hard. The comics feel comfortable. So that has now grown to where people with like Netflix specials that are famous comics are doing comedy shows at other shows. So it was one on Monday night. And the guy who was like young Larry and John, the friend's last name, but he was also on Saturday Night Live. So he's performing. And then we also just started last week music listening events. So we got someone from title who's helping us out and bringing up and coming artists to like debut their songs from their albums. And they get to bring in their customers to do a live music listening experience. It was too. It's like how do you be part of culture? I think in like 12 months we'll have like famous DJs, famous comics, famous artists playing. But I won't last forever. Like people will copy or like it will run its course. But it's like an amazing way to just be different. And it's what we do is like connecting people like that's what our brand is about. We have a lot of thoughts about like how much of our process do we share? We've spent probably the last year trying to like cultivate an ownable cult process. We trademarked cult as a service. Like we've leaned into this a lot. We've skewed more on that. It's probably better to just be honest and share stuff and be the originators of it. I feel like so much of what you guys have built. I've seen more recently get like completely copied and duped like one over in London recently. That to me drives like a lot of frustration when things like that happen. How do you guys deal with it? Do you just kind of stay in your own landing? Keep working? Are you like fuck these people? So yeah, I mean the first one that happened I was like pretty upset. Yeah. I was like oh is it what's this going to mean is like our business going to go are they going to steal clients from us? Is it like are we going to be as good as them? And then their build was like they just not the money. It wasn't like a serious operation. So I kind of went in and saw it and like I was like fuming about it for like three months like thinking about it. And I didn't really build something that people wanted before. Like it's my first time that like instead of having something that's like people want to copy. So it's a new it's a new experience. And then it's also like feeling some scarcity. Like is it still going to work? Are we going to make money? Yeah. Like it's not like we're out with like a hundred units crushing it. And I'm like oh whatever it's like still like oh I could lose my business. That's a fear that gets triggered. And I've been broke before. So I'm like I'm fucking killed to not go back there. Yeah. I was that first one. Then I saw it and I was like okay it's like whatever did a matter. Then one opened and two of our guides went there. Oh. And I felt pretty upset because the entrepreneur who hired them like never said anything just kind of poached them. And that one failed four months in. And so you know it was kind of they invited us in to buy them buy them out. And I was like a interesting moment. I was just like nope. Yeah. Yeah. We've had Fred's physical or situation. Then you know another one opened. We don't have to name any names in London. And legitimately like some of the class names are the same. Like to the point of like you know like we invented the word free flow. It's not like a thing that people do. Like we thought about it. We sat down. We said we're going to call this free flow. Language is so important. Yeah. It's part of our language. And then like you know it's also called a free flow. And it's like okay like you know so I just kind of texted and just said hey like this is something we thought of. Mind like switching the name. Yeah. But I think like the anger. It's not really helpful. And it also puts you in a bad mood. And I just also like these things like it's really hard to do. There's a massive market. So part of me also like the reality is I think the more of these there are like people need to be educated. I think that's the biggest problem. And the more they spend in marketing on that the more helps you. Exactly. So I think the reality is that it's not going to matter. Can you explain the layout of the New York locations? Yes. So that one is our best layout yet. And something we discovered through that one was like the idea of the circle. Yeah. And so none of other spaces are in that format. And so you come in and there's a circular t-room which you find like the stadium seating was something that people have started emulating. It's so great. Yeah. And so we had seen that in the assemblage. I don't know if you guys remember that place. Yeah. And just thought like wow if you're having a conversation you want to optimize serendipity. You can talk to people behind you below you. You can have like an eight person conversation in that style. And then climb over people. So exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And then when it's circular and even like that fireplace is pretty spectacular. It's like an 18 foot glass fireplace. I'm actually removing it in future builds because it blocks the dance floor and it blocks site lines. And so it is spectacular. The thing about the spaces we call it like three moments of wow. So you come into the t-room and you're like whoa. Like this is crazy. There's like a fucking ring of Saturn. Yeah. James Tarell. It feels like a UFO. Hey, love. That's like half UFO. But it's half to mimic a sunset. We felt like that lighting palette was best. Then you go into the sauna and it's another moment of wow. It's largest sauna in the US. Like well, this is fucking crazy. Most people have never been a sauna like that. Then you come around through this little tiny corridor. You don't really know what's going to happen. It looks like the experience is ending. And then there's like this massive, you know, 20 foot ceilings, 18 foot of cedar, like a cathedral. And it's meant to feel like a cathedral in that space. It's a cold space. That's where it is. Yeah. And that's where the magic happens. Like the deepest part of the experience is the cold plunge. So more silent, different volume music, different sound attenuation. It's kind of when you come in there. It's like, oh, like let's be respectful. Let's let's go deeper into the experience. And then it used to end where you would come out the same way. And now it ends where you roll back into the t-room. And so it's circular in that way as well. So you go through the experience many, many times and you can feel like you're always moving through the experience. So it always continues even though you're in the same space over and over. We found that flow is like really, it was kind of by luck also. Was that back door? We usually wanted them to not include it. And there's like a there's like a middle door. I don't know if you remember the back door and the middle door was going to be the main exit. And like the very first night, we really don't include the back door. We had to do for fire code. And in that middle door, the very first class we did, we realized everyone who's coming in and everyone's coming out is the same and they all collided. And I watched it happen. I was like, we just spent X amount of a million dollars and like this isn't going to work. And I was like, I had a fucking full panic attack. And then we realized like that back door actually worked perfectly. And then we had like that learning. So lucky again, so much luck. You fuck up one of these builds. You're just like devastating. You started at the beginning going, we got to talk about the cave. And I don't want you to lose your cave story. So can you tell us about the cave? It's long. Like I used to work before we had my son. Like I would do like 20 calls back to back. And just all day long, I would just fucking hammer the vape and coffee and just go and like drink weekends all day. I would just rip. Like yeah, that's it. And so my wife was like, hey, we're like again, she always like I get too far and she's like without her, I'd be dead. She pulls you back in. Yeah, she's like, you know, she's like, go in like two or three or something. So I booked this darkness retreat because like all these kooks, I'm like really on the fringes with like the kook worlds and people come into our space, love this shit, especially the garage. I used to be like the newest stuff, you know, the bed of nails or like the looping where you like drink your own urine. I didn't do that but like whatever people are out there doing, I'm hearing about it. Of course. And so a lot of people were like, you know, the dark retreat. And I was like, what is this thing? So I reached out to the guy, it's called sky cave. And he had lived in nature for like two years in solitude. So really was impressive person in terms of like just the way he carried himself. So I booked it, I showed up, I was so into Twitter. It's like just that I think COVID is on at this point. Yeah, I was so addicted to Twitter that I was drinking coffee and I missed the flight at the gate because not because I wasn't there but just because I was on Twitter and I looked up and the flight was gone. And so I went into the darker treat, like imagine you're driving a race car just like 120 miles an hour, like right into the fucking wall. Like no prep, just full on top speed turbo, like, so you get there and it's in like the wood like in the deep forest. Yeah, yeah. And it's like the legit cave. And so it's like decorated. Do they hijack all your stuff? Like you're handing over all. Hand over everything. And it's just like a little like two door system was like a little window that you open and they put the food in at night. So it's all inside the cave and there's like a wall and there's like this thing. So they put the food in the jail cell. Yeah, like your prisoner. Yeah, we could leave it anytime. So like it's not it's not a prison. Yeah, but it's like I remember like I went in. I saw it and it's like a maybe about the size of this kitchen. And there's just like a bed, a toilet and a bathtub. And it's like on the bathtub. It's fucking weird. But okay, that's an interesting choice. And I remember I kind of looked at the room and then as soon as I turn on the lights, like it's like pitch black. You can't even see your hand. You never adjust. And so it was like, oh shit, I don't know where anything is. And so I'd have to like go down on the ground and like be feeling around until like fine stuff. And first two days I just slept. So you get really, really tired and you're you're there's no light. There's nothing to stimulate like your circadian rhythm. So you just I just ended up sleeping for probably 40 hours. And it was kind of afraid at first. I was like, I don't like the darkness. And it's like, you know, you wake up. First thing you do, you open your eyes and you're like, you know, you're safe. And so in this case, you open your eyes and just pitch black. And so you can't see where you are. And my blind start to feel like really like things are closing in. And so I'd have to like I've started having a panic attack. So I have to like breathe really slowly to kind of calm down. And I was like, afraid like I'm like, okay, if I'm going to get out, something going to grab me. And even though you know there's no one there, it's just like subconscious like a lack of safety. I didn't realize how isolated it was. It was really hard. I kind of the first. And then like also about like three, four days in, you can't really sleep anymore. And so from day five to eight, it was just up straight. And so I got done meditation retreats of 10 hours. And those are grilling. And that's only, you know, there's still another 14 hours in the day. And so I would meditate a bit. And then I got sick. And as I call, I got the new COVID variant. I'm going to die. I'm going to die up here. And I'm alone. But then I had said in my email signature, like I was doing a 10 day darker tree. And I was like, there's no fucking way I'm leaving. And like saying only the three days, like just ego of like, I have to do it. I put out the world. I got to push through it. Yeah. So then I realized I wasn't sick. There was like some mold in the cave. And every time I would sit on this meditation cushion, it would like, there was, it was like dust. It would like come into my face. And so it's coughing. And so then I stopped doing that. And then like about day five, like some like pretty powerful insights. Just a lot of thought of death, a lot of thought of like my parents are getting older, they're going to die. A lot of like realizing that like I just think the same things over and over and over in these same patterns. And they're not really related to anything because there's just no stimulation. You realize like emotions just kind of come and go. The bath itself was like the highlight. And I realized like why the bath is there. It's like the only thing to look forward to. So I just take two to our baths every day. This is like that's all there was to do is like sit. And it was kind of cold. So it'd be like this nice warm bath. But then like I remember coming out at day, it was like, okay, I'm done. And I think it's not. You hear it's a psychedelic experience. It's not. It's just like a very deep meditative, like ultra complicated, difficult thing. And so I remember coming out and just seeing like everything was vibrating. Like I felt like I could feel like to see like the molecules in the air. Just vibrating was like what is happening. So I remember like it was like it's still dark when I came out in the morning. I remember just like smelling the ground and like feeling it on my face and like feeling like the open air. And then the sun started to come up. And you see color. It's like a reflection of light. And so you kind of like notice that oh, there's just a kind of browns started up and I'm like seeing things and just waiting to see like color. And like when the sun breached the sky and seeing the first blue was like, pal like in my eyes. Like it felt like I was transported back to this experience where I was skiing as a kid with my dad. And he was like there's just on the mountain like seeing the sun like so vividly. And then in that first like hour, I swam in a cold stream there. They had a sauna. I ate breakfast, which I could see. And it was like the best three hour. And like so it's just like, oh my god, life is so amazing. You you died. I mean you you essentially died and came back to life. So it was it was really awesome. And like just great. It's like when you have restriction with things, it just like improves like you know right now we're just hitting the vape again today started after six months. I had like two coffees. I'm like so stimulated. I'm like looking at my phone all day. And so when you go and do something like this, it just makes you able to more easily enjoy. Like I know you do the stuff that you're sailing and like it's the same race, both cross emotions with like days of pain and suffering. And then you feel like wow, life is so good. Oh yeah, like the littlest things. And then you get back to the city and you're just like hyper stimulated on all the time. Just like num and burnt out. So I think that like two days just to go and sleep for someone. It's like really nice and you can get a lot of the effect without like doing the whole thing. You can just do like a two-day sleep and it would be like with no phone and be like really really nice. I think that's actually a really good business. It's like a two-year weightless now for this place. Wow. Wow. Finish the sentence for me at the end of all this. I am not you know just the founder of this amazing thing I built. I'm also what? Oh man, it's such a big part of my identity now. It's like feels like everything. Like I feel like I could like I was just thinking like if someone came and offered me like $500 million to this business and they just say no, like what am I going to do? Like I would just try to build this. Who are you outside of it? Yes, I don't know. My dad probably. I think the one thing like that never like my relationship with my wife is most important thing to me. So she like I was just kind of a scumbag before and pretty like not in integrity when I was partying a lot. And so she used the first person that I really like treated with like my whole heart and like gave up everything for. And so I was like oh if I'm like really good for this person, what does it like say about me? And so I treated the relationship on like such it's like so sacred to me. And I just think our relationship is so strong. It's like what I'm most proud of. And so I think then without this then that's what comes up is like you know husband and dad. So how I want to show up with my son those two things come up. And then like something I like really my mom I grew up like she didn't work when I was growing up and we were like tumultuous at times. And I did this Hoffman process and then found out a lot of the superpowers I have were actually from her. And I had never given her any credit that feeling to me. It's like who I am. It's just this like you know as a world's ball on Monday. And I was just thinking of how many of these cool treatments we could like put in our bathhouse and just like I can get excited so easily. And it's like a super feels like a battery that's just like going to explode. It's such a compelling feeling. So that feeling is like who I feel like I am underneath. Yeah the battery. That's amazing. Do you have anything else you want to talk? I mean we literally covered everything. There's anything you're like I didn't get to talk about this thing. I know that was long that was so long. Thank you. That was phenomenal.