Ringer NBA Lore: The 1994-95 Champion Houston Rockets

What's poppin' ruins, Logan Murdock here for another edition of NBA lore. This time we are going to be chronically the 1994-1995 Rockets who won its championship as a 6C led by Akima Lajewan. This team was really, really fun, had a nice cast of characters at Kenny Smith, had Mario Ellie, Sam Kasel, Rudy Tee, people you might know that are luminaries within the space. And then the season was defined by two things. One, a mid-season trade to get Clyde Drexler, Houston's own Clyde Drexler into the fold. And then one of the greatest, if not the greatest in my opinion, runs by an NBA center, Akima Lajewan, who went through Karl Malone, went through Charles Barkley, went through David Robinson, the MVP of that season, and then went through Shaquille O'Neal to win his second championship and then cap off a back-to-back run from the Houston Rockets. It was a great conversation. We actually were joined by Joel Anderson and Balmone Jones, two of my favorite, favorite people and proud Houstonians. And we got into a lot of great things, biggest what ifs from that season? How much of the bulls linger over this run, Michael Jordan in particular? And where does this rank among Houston lore in terms of sports? Call that in more next on NBA lore, the Houston Rockets of 1995. What's popping, real ones, real ones presents, NBA lore. Today we are going to be talking about the '94, '95 Houston Rockets and anytime that I talk about Houston, I got to bring my partners in here, my play of partners, Joel Anderson and Balmone Jones. Balmone is from Houston and Joel is from Houston and a Rockets fan, there is distinction there. Joel, with that being said, are you nervous about what we're going to get into right now? How do you feel going into this? Are you excited? Wait, nervous. We're going to be talking about Houston sports for a little bit and based on all the research that I've had, there's a lot of heartbreak within that and I can actually see why you were the biggest hater on the network, but that is something that I'm going to digress from. Are you ready for this? Don't because Balmone here has stopped to show out Logan, okay, this is a ringer. This is still a ringer product. Oh, okay. He's still a regular product. He talked about him like being, he talked about him like vandus because that's so much nicer than you. Well, I'm just saying, I just want him to, I don't want him to show it just because we got company. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Yo company be showing out about you. Yeah. What? I know y'all are disrespectful, man. That's the problem. That's a real problem. But, but no, I'm not, I'm not worried about nothing. I mean, this is, you asked me to talk about the one highlight of my entire childhood as a Houston sports fan. I have nothing else to hold on to other than this. So this is a, it's almost a joy. I'm like, I have a lot of fun revisiting all these moments and characters because that's all we got done. You know, so what else, what else we had? Okay. Okay. All right. Well, let's, one thing I like to do when the NBA lore, let's start from the beginning and by the beginning, I mean, how we got to this point within the 1994, 95 season, and you got to kind of take it back, right? You got to take it back to the 1984 NBA draft when the Houston Rockets select a key Malaysia one first overall. And then you have a bit of heartbreak, right? You go to the 86 finals and lose to the Boston Celtics and don't call that everything's all that. Don't call it. Okay. I haven't even finished yet. I'm just starting, starting this season afterwards Ralph Samson hurts his knee and then he gets traded and, you know, Lewis Lloyd and Mitchell Wiggins are suspended for two years after testing positive forecourt. Kane. Two years. Two years. John Lucas also enters a rehabilitation program around the same time. And I mentioned that they lose their depth all that they have is Akima Lajuan and they don't win more than 52 games for the next six seasons. And then in the middle of all that, Akima Lajuan requests a trade because the team accused him of faking an injury, then you put that into the heartbreak that Houston has throughout the 80s where you talk about, let me just give you some tidbits, just twist the knife there for it. What do you do? What are you doing? You got 80 in LCS game five, you got the five, so I'm a jammer loss and 84 and 83. Not to mention the NFL wildcard collapse by the Houston Oilers. I'm asking, I'm springing this all up to see, how did this color your childhood, Joel Anderson? How did this go? And what was this like for you as a Houston fan? And then also, how does that color the rest of Houston as we get into the rockets success of the mid 90s? The first basketball game I have memory of is the 1983 NCAA Championship game with NC State against Houston, okay? The five slammer jammer was my first team that I loved, all right? And so then they go to the finals again, lose the Georgetown. And so then we finally get the rockets. And the rockets are exciting, like we've got the twin tower scene with Ralph Samson and Dream. And so when you said that 86 was sort of a letdown or whatever heartbreak, 86 was amazing. No, we beat the Showtime Lakers, dog. Well, hold up. And don't forget that same year the Astros made it to the playoffs when only two teams made the playoffs. Yeah. That was a bit. Yeah. Like that. It felt like shit was on the calm, right? Like even losing to the 86 meds. Five. If you're going to lose to a team losing 86 meds, you can live with. But that was one of the few times in bold. You, I mean, were you there in Houston and 86 now we got the seven and 87, yeah. Like for anybody to mention Houston sports on national TV, and this is what I always try to talk about in Houston. We did have a little bit of a chip on our shoulder because we're the fourth largest city in the country, but nobody really respects us as a large city. Nobody talks about our teams on the big national show. So the idea that they got to play on these major stages against teams from New York and Boston, even though it didn't quite work out, it was like, okay, y'all are at least aware of us now. And to be fair on that too, you got to remember, man, at that time, nobody got to win anything. Like as far as cities go, when you think about this, right, how many of them championships had to Celtics one by that time. The lake was couldn't even get a chance, couldn't, couldn't really squeeze in and get in there. And there were fewer teams like in baseball, fewer teams made it to the playoffs, every city full of heartbreak. Oh, exactly, this was just, I ain't like the way you started off by talking to Joel right there. Thank you. I appreciate that. Also, like, you know, come on, dog, you know, like talk about, hey, Houston was home of one of the first regular starting, black regular starting quarterbacks in the NFL. You know what I mean? They were sorry. You didn't know it took a while for that. Did it take a while for that? All right. What about this? What about this? We had the first black quarterback to win the Heisman if you rooted for a team from Houston. You never saw him play a game, but you know, you're doing this thing where you are defending. Joe's feelings, but you're saying exactly what I know, no, no, no, no, no, no. What happened was Joel started taking a little bit too far. I'm, I feel like suddenly I've become the host of this show like I'm the one that's, I'm the one that's trying to hold this thing in a row. What? I mean, look, man, I'm just, you asked me to let you ride. No, let me, let me, I'm sorry. I mean, I'm gonna catch you off there, but I had never thought of Houston is like this cauldron of heartbreak until this motherfucker started doing that and like, did you ever feel that way, Joel? Cause I never really felt that way. I know. I did because I mean, that's all you know, you don't know what it's like to live in another city. I didn't know that Milwaukee hadn't won a NBA championship since the whatever. Oh, I get it. Y'all just self absorbed. That's what it was. What it was the 80s and 90s. How could we know about you saw what you saw on TV and even then you might not even get to see your home playoff to your home, but you don't know, but this is what it is for me. Cause we moved to Houston when I was right before I turned seven. And so I was old enough that I had teams already and because of the superstation, the braze came with me. So I never really like had to quit my teams right in order to move. So as far as I could tell, Houston compared to Atlanta, Houston might as well have been Green Bay. Houston might as well have been titled, tell USA. That's a good point. That's a good point. You know, are you are, are you going to be able to get through this in one piece? Well, you saw it. Okay. We can move. I'm sorry. Alright. That's a hot life. That's a hot life. All right. At the, at the center of all of this is a cumulazuan, right, who is a legend by this point in 1994, 95 season, but he's tethered to Houston in a way that, you know, most athletes there aren't, right, he goes to school at the University of Houston, his part of five slam a gem is the center of it all, but he's somebody that, you know, at least from my recollection, one of the first players that is chose Houston, right. There's a big recruiting story when he comes to America for the first time out of Nigeria. And he's his first stop is to go to New York. So he can take an official visit to St. John's and he goes to the airport and he gets out of JFK and is like, Oh, it is too cold here. I don't even know if I want to be here. This is not my kind of place. I, and then he goes to one of the, the baggage handlers who happens to be Nigerian and the baggage handlers, he acts the baggage handlers. You know man, where in America is most like Nigeria and the bag or which one of these cities that I'm going to is like Nigeria And they say yo the University of Houston go to Houston and he goes back into the airport and he books a flight to Houston and the rest is history I don't think he had any idea how correct he was at the time boy Houston got anything I don't know if it was all it was like this in 82 but Houston got plenty of Nigeria's boy I mean by the 90's they did They was rolling deep yeah, man. Yeah crew down there. What was it? I'll start up with with bow on this What was his impact like from the time that he starts at the University of Houston and then they kind of you know Houston lives with them right? We talk about the trade of course that he had And then he you know they see the ups and downs with him They're not getting to play off wins and then they win a title in 1993 94 by 94 95 What is a keem within the landscape of Houston sports man? I think the thing that you have to remember is you talk about the trade request, right? but What happened around the trade request is fascinating the look back especially through the lens that we look at sports now After they trade a Samson and they trade a Samson they trade him to go and say they got sleepy Floyd in that trade And then they wound up making another trade and they got a Otis Thorpe I think they said riding McCray the Sacramento and they got Otis Thorpe and So sleepy wasn't there for the championship teams, but this were not good teams like a large one Half those years with Samson and then outside of that a large one played with nobody like when you try to ask yourself Who was the second best player that came a large one played with through 1994 before Clyde Drexler showed up the answer is probably Otis Thorpe so a large one demands this trade I want to say it's in 92 that he demands the trade and Keep in mind he had a blood clot situation, right like a large while was out there This was so back in the day that he had to like wear his sleeve on his leg But the sleeve look crazy because they didn't make black people sleeves So it just look like he had there's like where white people patting holes Whatever was that's what a large while was in but after that they accused him of faking his hamstring injury and I recall that a large one actually came out okay with that in the quarter public opinion for one reason Which is this is the city that J.R. Richard had a stroke in so people had a little bit of a different idea of when the guy says This thing is a problem. Maybe this thing is a problem, right? So anyway, you get to 92. He asked Charlie Charlie Thomas owner team at the time car salesman He asked for the trade and I think drove Solomon who wrote for the user product before a long time Game it told me then Charlie Charlie Thomas told him you could cuss me out if you want to But I got tickets to sell they didn't trade them not only did they not trade them They didn't really do anything to make the team better Didn't do it, but what they did do going in the I want to say was the 91 92 season They lost the game to the Minnesota temple walls and Charlie Thomas got mad at the coach Don Cheney and fired him And keep it my die Cheney played with like Elvin Hayes for the for you of age back in the day. Oh another Houston legend Yeah, that's a guy fire. I mean black but still fire his ass because he got mad over a loss Broad and rudy top John of it. Maybe best decision they ever made and that year after a large wine asked for a trade And they told him no and they did nothing to make the team better the team got better because a large one That's the first year he was defense a player to hear like he becomes the version of a large one that you see Right, I say all that to say it was a bit of a roller coaster ride because between 86 and 92 they don't win a playoff series And to be honest a large one was very good, but not close to what he like ultimately became He went and dropped to put the age back on his name back when he was I came a large one a cuss of people out He went and got back right with big a lot So he got back, you know, he got his Islam on him and big a lot was back on track And now he's becoming that guy again and you get to 93 the thing that people can't forget that team started that season 22 and one They did not finish with the best record in the league and the best record in the West But they started the season 22 and one and now a large one has gone from this fast slammer jammer thing you got to remember What the role you have aged plays in the city is very race Tied right so I always wondered exactly how white people felt about it Because that is a very black people like that's The way you think of the Miami Hurricanes of the late 80s you of age was kind of there all right You could you could sometimes in Houston we joke that it's kind of an HBCU because it's right over there near TSU Right in third world and this is kind of it's not an HBCU. So it's not it's not a very diverse way to buy school. Yeah, right Yeah, who was great couples all the golfers. Yeah, all the golfers go there. Yeah, so but it's so it's not it's not total But based on what's located in the affinity we have for there's no at least for black people in Houston of my age There was no complicating there was no complicating issues with room for University Houston You might had an University of Texas for Texas and him but University Houston was kind of ours on the way Well, they were the integrating school South Southern college football right they They were integrating school in college basketball, right? Like Elvin Hayes and those like they went to Two final fours at the end of 1960s, right? They won the game of the century like this is I mean guy guy be Lewis is just rolling the ball out there, but he was rolling out there to brothers And telling them to do brother things Like duck all the time like that was that was where they were So I've never I've always wondered like with white foes exactly where Elijah was stood But then what's they really got to rolling on that team and Elijah was the best player in the NBA because you know Regardless of why he was the best player in the NBA in the beginning 1993 he's This question for Joe is chemo lodge wide ever is big a deal in Houston is Nolan Ryan I don't have a great answer for that and that's not an insult to Nolan Ryan or an insult to a lodge wide The white foes just love Nolan Ryan. Yeah, I don't think I don't think he I mean I feel like now I think Nolan Ryan is a different is a different level of fame. Okay He's from Alvin you know saying the country's Noah chemo lodge wall, but he's no computer like you know He's no a chemo lodge one, but I wouldn't even say do you think Warren Moon got it over Nolan Ryan? Oh, no. Yeah, no, right. Yeah It's time Nolan Ryan's I mean, that's a big deal man. Nolan Ryan's a big Houston deal Yeah, I mean, I think I don't think Warren Boone has it on a lodge one at all. Oh, he doesn't he doesn't He doesn't I mean a lodge one is the winner guy man and the lodge one put in a lot of work for us And so I mean, there's other reasons for this as well They never dropped a run a lodge wall out of town Right, right. Well, I mean, that's the funny thing, but because like Nobody like Steve Patterson. He didn't have any credibility even then They would I remember it at the time and I didn't general manager that was general manager time His daddy was his daddy was general manager before him important detail Yeah, and I didn't have like a real complicated understanding of the labor dynamics But I'm like if the issue is that Steve Patterson insult to the king the lodge one Steve Patterson needs to apologize He needs to apologize because we do not a dream was all we had and we saw he played with book. No, thanks to bug Johnson You know what I'm saying? But they're like bug Johnson and all these guys they were just we're not you know Dream just never had another All-Star and so we were taught out everybody could understand Why dream not only wanted to be out but like I put my body on the line You have to hear from you guys and you've done nothing and then you think I'm faking it man Get the hell out of here. So yeah, I totally understood then I must they almost trade a dream for running cycle Grant long and heroin or dog. You know how mad? I would have been I remember when they were floating that trade in the back at the top though People thought that heroin might or it was going to be George Yeah, I know I know I wouldn't want to take that chance. I want to take that chance Yeah, I want to get to roster guy David said a second and gets to the beginning of the season one thing I wanted to ask I think it's pretty fascinating about this time in Houston Is it's Houston's going and Texas in general is going through a transitional phase in general right where you have The last Democrat in office is Is out by I think 93 right and then you have 94 94 and then you have this influx of a bush era Politics right and the Texas Republican is on the rise and then you have Specifically in Houston in Port Arthur and Texas in general you have this rising hip hop scene right you have DJ screwing Houston You have you GK coming out of a port Arthur And you just you you start to have both sides of Houston kind of I wouldn't say communicating with each other But definitely saying What they feel is either wrong with the state or when he's in Peru. What was it like? I'll start with um With Balmani. What was it like to have those two factions kind of You know figuring themselves out right and what was it like to grow up within that part of Houston and how did it Illustrate the Houston that we saw Through the Houston Rockets. I mean, I would say that the Texas Republican had been running shit for a long time It's a long story as to how we got that Democrat, but it took in all time you want to talk about blow to 35 to 3 lead Clay Williams Clay Williams in the 1990 gubernatorial elected I was 10 years old and I can tell hey, man This is supposed to be happening. What is going on here? Oh, so like You got to understand man. Houston white folks are a little different and what I mean What I say to use the white folks are a little different is that Archetype that you describe is always always there. We always aware they never hid. But they might kick you with you one day. They ain't gonna like you necessarily, but they're not afraid of us in any sort of way. They don't want to live with you. They might not want to live with you none of those things, but it's not one of those. They go across the street when they come in because they pack heat. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, right? So, yeah, it never felt like there was a change going on. Those people were just, they were established as what they are, right? Um, the music thing, I think is interesting because I would make the argument that I say this a lot and not everybody gets happy with me when I say this, but especially in the South, not every city was a hip hop city, right? So, for example, Chicago was not really a hip hop city at that point. A scene ultimately developed and already DC, not really a hip hop city. A scene ultimately developed, but it wasn't really that like it took a lot of time in a lot of places for like rap to catch. I make the argument they Houston, not really a hip hop city. The scene, it's hip hop scene outside of rap a lot. That does really get started when you're talking about like this mid 90s stretch and life for me, like Joe, like 95 to me is when I became aware of screw and that's when you like here and pimped appear on the radio and radio station doing screwed out on songs and stuff like that. UGK, UG but always makes the point about UGK that they could get it, get their thing off in Houston because they weren't from the Northside or the Southside so they could go to both, right? But to me, it always felt like there was like a rap a lot scene that what was going on around rap a lot record, which is naturally relevant and everything, but the building of the city scene to me, that starts happening in this era. Like I was at the the Ben Ryan Dirty show for the 30th anniversary, Ryan Dirty. And it was interesting like being there and like when it's time to play to Houston jams, almost all of those are from the 21st century. That's all right. That's all of them because that's when that's when the scene really got going. Like the last 20 years of Houston hip hop a big kind of incredible. And it starts in the midnight. What was it like growing up in that environment, though? Yeah, no, it's interesting because in Houston, particularly the Houston, I grew up in and I should say like I grew up on the Southside, but grew up on the Northside and the Southside is sort of like the center of black culture in the Houston area. Like it's the encompasses third or third or third or third is the center, right? Yeah, right. Everything emanates from your proximity to third ward. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I had cousins that lived in third ward and actually to go to HSD, I used that their dress to go to school from that third ward. But also, yo, so I mean, it's so it's really interesting because when I go back to Houston now, I was funny to hear both talk about that about white people in Houston because when I would go back with my wife and she'd like, you know, you don't socialize with any white people when you come to Houston. Did you know that? And I was like, kind of right. Like we kind of lived on our own side of town. Houston had such as like robust black culture from clubs to restaurants to our parties or whatever else. You really didn't have to like go hang out with white people. And in fact, it's diverse, but segregated diverse, but sacred. And so it was when I met my friend on the North Side of town, I actually knew a black dude that hung out with white people. Like I was like, wow, for real. That's what we gonna do tonight. Cool. Let's go to Peter's wildlife then. That's all right. But, but yeah, so it's a very segregated city, but like in, in those parts, like those sports teams, man, a lot of us in the music, like both you talk with the ghetto boys, man. When the ghetto boys got on in 91, bro, that was such a big moment. That was that might have been as big as the Rockets one in the championship dog. Just like to hear mine playing tricks on me at the top of video. So week after week, do you know how big a deal that was for people to hear people say put them fifth war bees on them and people know what fifth war was around the country. So let's get into the season. This is a very, at least for the first part of the season going into the All Star break. It's a very up and down year for for the Rockets. They go nine, nine and no to start the season, lose the next nine in our sixth place by the time they get to the All Star break. And then they engineered trade for Clyde Drexler. And that affects the season in so many different ways, right? Where, uh, you know, the biggest, and you guys are talking about just the Rockets presence in the city of nobody exemplifies that more than one burn in Maxwell, right? And he is a key contributor through the 93 94 championship run has the big game against Phoenix in that in the 94 playoffs. But by this time, he is about to be on the outs and about to quit the team. Um, and he is the definition of when keeping it real goes wrong. I've had him on our, we have had him on the real ones podcast. Uh, we know that Bob Monty has has has some legendary interviews with Mr. Vernon Maxwell. And it's always a treat when you talk to him. But there is the other side of that. Um, but can you talk about all, both all, um, of the characteristics of Vernon Maxwell and how they fit within Houston during that, uh, those playoff. Well, I mean, you left out a very important thing that happened that season. Where we went into the trade, the trade with the trailblazers to get Clyde Drexler was the second biggest news to come out of Portland involving the Rockets that year with number one being Varrona Maxwell going into stands and bust in a fan in the face. And then coming back, um, yeah, that happened. So he sat back down on the bench after he hit him too. I didn't see the video for that punch until like recently. I was in the last few years. I had never seen him until the last few years. Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. How he just walks up. Nobody stops him. Kids to do Robert Ori and then pull him back to the bench. He's going to sit back down on the bench, don't you have to the best part of the clip is that he starts going into the crowd. And it becomes clear that it was Robert Ori's job to keep an eye on him. And he realized, uh-oh. He has gotten past me. He broke insane. He broke insane. And yes, Varron did it and then just sat back down as if he was just going to get in the game. Yeah, man. That was going to be done. I think Varron. Varron was interested. Varron also, I want to say it was the year before that or maybe a year before that when, um, as he talked about on my show, he went and had Luby's cafeteria for lunch before going to the arena because back in the day, you would go to Luby's cafeteria and eat before engaging at a high level athletic competition. Um, and some happened and he was driving his Porsche that had a license plate that said VM 11 on it. And I forget what happened. I think they got cut off. Anyway, Varron pulled up on them and fleshed to, um, which, I mean, I don't know, I'm just reusing the gifts. Yeah. Then, then, then that would right there. But now Varron, Varron's the dude that gave us some age. Varron was also, Varron was out there. Varron was living the Houston life. My brother would talk about see a bird at the clubs and everything else rolled around in Houston. Like, he was, as I think about it on that team, especially before they got Mario Ellie, he was the one guy that he was like, Oh, we got a, a dude with some real edge on this squad. It was a rollercoaster for Verna Maxwell, but no tell it what might happen. Good or bad. And that's an abasca ball since, too. Yeah. I mean, he was the one dude that was, I mean, again, we don't have to get into this early, uh, now, but he was a one dude that was like not afraid of Michael Jordan. Like, that's video of him, like, going up, talking to him, like, Hey, man, don't put your hands on me. And it's like, so it's just like, he brought a level of, like, street and toughness that I as a, as a kid, a teenager, I enjoyed the hell out of it. He was, he was, he was probably my second favorite rocket to root for all things be considered because he just, like, yeah, you just, they called him Mad Max, man. And everybody knew what it was. Like, we didn't know exactly what Max was doing at the time. His fans, but like, this suggestion was that boy, got it, got after it off the floor as just as much as he did on the floor. And they got him for free because Larry Brow was like, take him. Just just take him. I don't hear. Larry Brown frass fashion, he takes him back after that run. He, he, he signs him back to the, I think it leaves us six years. Um, the, what, so there, when, when Vernon, um, Vernon is one thing, right? And we kind of, you know, race to the end of it. And we'll get to the end when Vernon, um, you know, quits the team in Salt Lake City, um, which is, uh, you know, pushes the narrative a lot of that Vernon Maxwell hates Salt Lake City, which he does. Um, but let's talk about the addition of, um, Clyde Drexler to the fold, right? Because from a Houston standpoint, it seems to be, man, we got our guy back. This is five slamma jamma. He's reunited with Hakeem. But the people in the locker room are, are not exactly excited to see, uh, Clyde juxter in the locker room. You know, they, they see this guy that is, uh, got the yee yee as haircut and he's reading the Wall Street Journal and he looks, uh, he seems to be up and he, right? That's what, that's what, you know, Kitty Smith has said that is what people in the locker room, plus they missed, uh, Oh, the store. And, you know, they get off to a rocky start. What was it like, Joel, for you to see, you know, Clyde coming back? It was it weird because you guys, you guys, you make this big trade. And then it doesn't seem like anything is, has, has changed necessarily a, I'll be it also a keem is out for an extended period of time down the stretch of that season. But what was the ups and downs like after that trade where you think, oh, this is going to, you know, boost us. And then, you know, it's, it's, it doesn't end up that way. Well, I think the thing was is that you're always wary of breaking up a championship team. We grew, very, we grew very fond of Otis Thorpe because he wasn't like a flashy productive, hugely productive. productive player, but he was tough as shit, man. And he had to guard all those power forts in the West, you know, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, all those dudes. He had to stand up against those guys and he did a pretty, he held his own. Like, he was an all star at one point in this like three to four year run, building up to the championship. So you lose Odysthorpe and you're like, damn. I guess we're not gonna work out, but the only thing that makes it feel a little bit better if you're a fan is, oh, class coming home. We don't know nothing about them, like a room dynamics. Oh, we know is that Clyde is still a very good all star level NBA player. If you're a Houstonian, you have like, oh, man, dream guy is boy back, right? And like, you, you, it's like he's, he went to Sterling like he's a really from here. He's really from, his family owns a barbecue joint, that was one of the most famous in the town, the Drexler's Barbecue, right? And so for him to come back home, it was like, well, yeah, we might as well try because for all for, for all the fondness we had for OT, the thought was, man, the team still didn't look good. Like it just didn't, it looked like it was sputtered and it looked like it was going to do much, but it's not like it looked better after that. And that was kind of the scary thing, but the Rockets were hurt, man. Like as we see now with championship runs in the NBA, one title run is really hard on the body. And teams really suffer a lot of injuries. It's hard to build it back up. And so the Rockets were kind of going through that cycle unbeknownst us at the time. And yeah, like to your point, Logan, like Drexler comes in, dream is hurt and not playing well, you know, or not, you know, he's in and out of a lineup a little bit. And so Drexler has to take all these shots, bro. But like, we're fine with that. That's an all-star dog. But I don't, you know, if you in the locker room, I can imagine this new guy comes in and it's like what dreams out. So shots up for me. And you know, it probably took a little bit of time for them to get together for sure. - It's funny you mentioned that because I wonder how that would go over now. This is a much more AAU condition basketball scene and the idea of loading up your squad. Like it's different. Cause look, in retrospect, at the time, I was kind of like, really is that what you're gonna do? Because it wasn't just that you moved off from over the store. You completely changed the way you play basketball. Like this now became a small ball team. It just so happened that Robert Ori was a big guy who did small, Robert Ori was a small forward before they made that trade. And then he wound up being a face up for a power forward after by the way he played center in college. But this was a, this was a shift of the paradigm of how to play basketball. Like they didn't really play with a power forward when they did this. But they did get like in this day and age, this is a no-brainer trade that you make. You get a dream teamer. You get a no-brainer Hall of Famer, one of the 50 greatest players in history of the NBA, all of that as had been named. You needed another guy. It's amazing in retrospect that they could have done it in '94 with your second best player being go to Storp. Now again, they were playing against a team whose second best player was probably Anthony Mason in order to get that championship. But still this was, this was a no-brainer trade to make, right? But they didn't really get better, right? It didn't look it. But I would never forget something. Rudy Tom Johnum has said this tour at the end of the year. We'd go into the playoffs. He was like, we're the only team in this playoff with really that truly has room to get better. Yeah. Everything seemed to have gone wrong in that year. They had to deal with whatever happy we've earned in Maxwell. Um, you know, like Joel mentioned, coming back from winning a championship is physically demanding having to play, especially in that day and age, having to play all those games and everything like that. No, man, you absolutely take Clyde. But on the other hand, Clyde was playing a much different brand of basketball than he had ever played because everybody, this was the bell Eric had of the offense by and large. At least that's how it felt. Y'all passing the ball to Will. Yeah. Will wears number 34. Right. Get out of his way. Get out of his way. Just be a stand on the corner and make your shots. And yeah, like so for somebody else to take some of the offensive load off a dream. Like as a fan, we only, I think that makes a lot of sense, man, because winning with OT just doesn't seem like that's going to be doable this year. Like all because this the year before, the Rockets were clearly one of the best teams in the league. But it wasn't so clear going into the playoffs that next year. It felt like a lot of other teams had gotten better in the interim. And then of course, Jordan comes back mid season too. But this is the first year that Shaq and Penny flower for real and the suns are making another run. So it's like, yeah, they need a little bit more punch because they can't just win it. I mean, even then you just couldn't win 81 to 78 every night. Yeah. And so you guys obviously alluded to it. The Rockets end the season losing three straight. There, they come in to be the sixth seed. And then they go to play the Utah Jazz and Salt Lake City, where after game one, all hell breaks loose. Vernon Maxwell quits the team. I'll read this from the Houston Chronicle. The prolific guard was upset about coming off the bench, but things really came to the head to the first game of the post season, defending champions, who went to the playoffs as a disappointing sixth seed, trailed the jazz by two with 2.4 seconds left in game one. Maxwell played just 16 minutes the entire game compared to Drexler's 37 and hadn't seen the court at all in the fourth quarter until Rudy T inserted Maxwell for the final seconds drawing up a play for him to get off a potential game winning shot. Maxwell's attempt clanked off the back iron and left the court fuming. That night in Utah, Kenny Smith tried to play a role by calling Maxwell's room to check in on him. Instead, Maxwell's friend answered and told him that Maxwell had left. Left where to go eat Smith recall saying on the phone. He's like, no, he left the team. He's going home. He was at the airport. What was that like after game one, Bobo, where Vernon Maxwell, who was a key contributor, very beloved at Houston, I'd imagine. Is it is is this expected? It was this boiling to a point to where, oh, this is probably what's going to happen or was it like, damn, this is huge. What the hell? Well, I mean, anything was possible with Vernon, but I personally had never remembered anybody just quitting the team. Like I've seen that happen. Not at that level. Yeah, little league, right? I'd never, like maybe you didn't pass your classes and you had to sit out for six weeks. I ain't never heard about nobody just being like, you know what, I'm done with this, I'm gone. But I don't remember it being that big of a deal just because they say, "Reason, he left." They're quiet and they got quiet now. Like I can see why he quit. In fact, I don't ever remember anybody missing him. Well, that's the thing. I was just going to say, it didn't seem outrageous at the time. Maybe that's just, I don't know, because you're right, but I can't remember a guy just walking away from a team and being allowed to come back. And this is in the same years that Pippin, was this is the year after Scotty sub, you know, diffuses to come back in the game because of Tony Cooke on short. So it's like, this happens in that same kind of window and people were just like, yeah, I mean, that's what up. But we got caught. Like you said, it didn't seem like it really affected the team. I'm sure that if we talked to Rudy T, it's like, "Yo man, my depth and everything else." But we were just like, I guess that's what's going to happen. - Matt was talking to Rudy T, he was like, "Man." - Woo. - That was glad we took care of that. (laughing) - Yeah. As it happened, and I've read about this, the difference is that he was just upset that a people didn't call him and tell him anything. He didn't know anything. It was going to happen like this. And then after he got upset and left, nobody called to follow up because that's his version of events where he says at the time. So it was just like, you know, I guess people had sort of moved on and you put to the Monty's point. Man, Max doesn't seem like a dude to be a lot of fun to be around if he in a bad mood. But I don't think that's going to be no fun locker room. Like that's a dude who is twice thrown weights his teammates in the middle of fights. At least two terms that I've heard of, okay? So it's like, if he's not going to be a good mood, it might be better for the team if he just decides to move on. - Yeah, this is the guy that Akima allows you on slapped after a playoff game, you know? - It wasn't a playoff game, I didn't know he slapped him. - Yeah, I believe it was after the Sonic's after they played the Sonic game. - It was a game against the Sonic's, but I don't remember the E to play off game. I think the getting the shit slapped out of him part regardless of the stakes is the, and it wasn't after the game. I think it was a halftop. - Yeah. - He spit. - When he about him spitting or something. - And he spit on him. - He said that when he gets to get mad, he was spit, which is crazy. - I really did. - I did that. - Games were floater, man. - Games were floater. - Before we move on, though, before we move on to the series of Utah, what's your favorite burning Maxwell story? - I mean, he went in the crowd and pushed that dude in the mouth. Why ain't that? After I saw the clip, it was just like, oh, this is a, yeah. I had been told though that after that happened, he was in the locker room. And they're like, yo, you know, because he's media outside. And he's like, man, tell the motherfucker to come in here and they're like, we will not. (laughing) - You will not be anywhere near them. (laughing) - Didn't he punch a cameraman too? Didn't he already punch a cameraman at that particular point? I remember seeing some videotape of it. I believe that happened. - I mean, I don't remember that, but it's on the board. - Yeah. - Okay, so Rockets win the next game. But they, you know, they're down to one to the Carmelone, John Stockton, Utah Jazz. And this is a team that had 160 games. But I don't know if they had had the reputation that they were perpetual bag fumblers by this point where you stared Joe at this point where you scared that they were gonna, the jazz were gonna win this series and that the Rockets were gonna be over at this point or were you like, now, what? Oh, we got him in the bag. - Also, keep in mind, two wanted the best five that were not in the best seven yet. - It's interesting because, no. I mean, I know that series was very close, right? But at that point in my life, I don't think the Rockets had, I couldn't remember, I know that they lost to the jazz and like 84 or 85 or something like that, like the first year that they had Ralph Samson. But after that, the Rockets mostly handled the jazz. So I just-- - And they had beaten him the year before. - They had beaten him the year before. - Yeah, so the right, so I was never really concerned about the jazz as a rival at that time. I was like, oh, they're gonna figure out a way to beat them because they're better than the jazz. Like the jazz were just a foil for the Rockets on the way to their championship dreams. They were not a team like the Spurs or how the Mavs had been with Roy Tarpoli and Marco Guar, anything like that. Like they just seemed like a team that we were destined to defeat. I was never scared, which is weird for a Houston fan because that's all we ever do going into playoff series. We're scared because we're like, oh, how's this gonna go wrong? But for whatever reason the jazz never threatened us in quite that way. - It's funny because I thought because the Rockets had been so iffy all year long that I thought the jazz were going to beat them. Yes, the jazz had won 60 games at that point. I think if I'm not mistaken, they might have even had the second best record in the West that year, but the way the playoffs went. The division part took priority. But I once that game got going though, 'cause I wasn't old enough to truly appreciate that some people are kind of sort of losers. Like I just hadn't really like come to terms with their reality and some fortunate. But as that game five went, it was kind of like, oh no, the Rockets are going to beat them. 'Cause there was a big late shot in that game, wasn't it? - I think so. Yeah, was it Orin? I think Orin might have had a big moment in that game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was like, yeah, the jazz had lost a first round series as a two-seed against the seven already at that point. The Rockets beat them for one in the conference finals in '94. Yeah, they were looking like the, the fact that the jazz kept it together long enough for them to make it, they would have broke that shit up in this day and age. - Absolutely. - Thank goodness. Unbelievable. - They didn't get it together until Carl Malone's 12th year in the NBA. Like you wanna talk about trying to make it happen. 'Cause the Rockets. - If this was today, Carl Malone and John Stockton will be on three different teams. - Wait, are you sure? Because hold on, hold on. 'Cause the thing about the jazz, the thing that makes it interesting with the jazz is that man, they really gotta have people that wanna be there too though, right? And they know, if you have somebody great and it doesn't seem like enough, you're like, well, maybe we can work at the margins because-- - Yeah, but keep in mind though, by then as a franchise, even if you count New Orleans, they had had Pete Maribitch, they had Daryl Griffith, they had Adrian Danley. They had dudes. - Dan dudes. - Yeah, they had dudes that wanted to be there, that's fine. But in this day and age, those guys, it wasn't just that they weren't getting there as they were coming up short. Like they were performing to a certain level and then the playoffs will come and it felt like they weren't as good, which is important because a point guard that height can only be but so effective in the postseason. Like John Stockton was a much better regular season player than he was a postseason player. That was just fundamental. They probably would have broke that up, but that satiety Jonas really make a good point because they couldn't trade, they wouldn't be trading John Stockton 'cause they trying to sell tickets and they was only gonna file one car on the loan. - Yeah, man. - That are and worse. - I mean, do play 82 games since Carmelone that has just been willingly staying in Utah since Carmelone. - Green Phil Louisiana, man. I mean, or wherever it's fun up there. I mean-- - Some of you, all right. Some of Phil Louisiana, yeah, man. Look, man, that probably felt, where it couldn't possibly feel quite the same, but he probably, he didn't need much, man. And so if you've got somebody that's willing to do it, if you're Utah, I still think Danny Ames probably still has to work around there. It's like, I got to make sure I get people that want to be here, you know? - Yeah. So the Rockets end up, you know, getting the series out the way in five games and then sets up a great matchup against the Phoenix Suns who had lost the, who had lost, I believe, in the second round of the '94 playoffs to Houston and it's turned Houston from Choke City to Klet City. And then there's the rematch here. And, you know, again, the Suns go up. Charles Barclay gets to talk to some shit and he says, "Chucky Brown cannot guard me. He is too small to guard me. If they don't double team, I will get 100 on Chucky Brown." - I believe he says, "Fuck Chucky Brown right after that, too." - That's awesome, that's awesome. And then proceeds to go, I believe, one of 10, the next night. And that sets up the kiss of Death Shot in game seven of that series. But before we get to the kiss of Death Shot, what was Barclay as a character at this point? And how did you guys feel about him? What was dark with Joe? How did you feel about Charles Barclay at this point? And when he started to talk shit, was it like, oh, damn, he's going to back it up? - Oh! - We got a shot at this. How did you feel going into that series after he said what he said? - I fully expected the Suns to go ahead and win that series. Now, that was different because I felt like the year before that the Rockets got kind of lucky and they caught a wave and were just able to overwhelm the Suns and win like that. It was improbable to do what the Rockets did at that scene. I was like, "There's no way they're gonna be able to do it again. I just thought the Suns were better than them." 'Cause it wasn't even that like Barclay, like Kevin Johnson used to cut eyes up, bro. Like, I don't, like, nobody made me more mad at Kenny Smith and Sam Castell than Kevin Johnson. 'Cause I was like, bro, why can't you guys not stay in front of him? Now again, Kevin Johnson's one of the best point guards in the world, of course, right? But it was still like, we had nothing for them. And so when Chuck's talking shit to us, I'm like, yeah, I believe his reps. They're going to do what he said he's going to do. And I will say something now. Chuck, this must have been a different time in NBA or whatever, but like Chuck was sort of beloved in Houston. On my Pops, I've only went to maybe six or seven Rockets games in my life. One of them was a game that was a promotion. - It was Barclay night. - Barclay, but my Pops cut his hair off with him all. And we got into the arena, we got to the summit and watched the game that night. So Barclay was kind of a, it was like when Barclay came to Houston, it was kind of like people want to see him. - And when they did that Chuck came and hugged out 'cause Chuck is like that. Chuck was came and took pictures with everybody. They ran a promotion for an opposing player in hometown and it worked out perfectly. Like everybody was like, that's how big Chuck was to us in Houston. So when he said, oh yeah, Chuck Brown can't guard us, I'm like, he's right. Chuck Brown can't guard him. So we do something else. - Yeah, it was a reason I'm a hot boxer, right? Like they were up three, one. Now keep in mind, the year before, you mentioned the joke city, the Club City. The thing is important to wall people through exactly what happened there. The rockets went down O2 in the 94 conference semi-finals to Phoenix and the second game in particular, I remember the rockets may have blown at 20 point lead. - Yeah, they did. - It was something giant, right? And the headline of the soon to be default Houston post. He was supposed to not make it to, he was supposed to not make it to the 1995 NBA fights. But in 1994, the headline was choke city because they had choked that game away. And then when they won game seven, like a good Houston fair weather fan would, it was clutching on the headline. - Well, you know, there's two of other funny parts about that, Bo. The Chronicle did choke city headline that night too. - Really? - Yeah, they did. - So maybe it was the Chronicle not to post. I could be wrong. - No, no, it was both of them. They both did it that night. There's a story, if you, if it was on the cron.com about just reliving that time, they both had the choke city headline on the sports section that time, which is crazy. But do you know what happened after that? They interviewed Max. Do you remember this, Bo? Will they interview Max at the game? And Max got so pissed at the fans. He was just like, see, man, we can't even sell out, we can't even sell out our games and people show up all late. And then they come booing. He's like, man, the hell with the fans? Like he got, and you know what happened? Fans really were kind of like, kind of got a point. Like very, very, very, very, very, very, very sad. It's a real shit. And so they showed up for the next home game. They were there early and they were loud. It was crazy, but yet at that moment, when they went down to the suns, I mean, they felt so free they're burning 'cause shit on the fans. And they were like, yeah, man, like this is, we been pretty bad. And then they were the next two. They went to Phoenix and won those next two, then wound up winning at home in game seven. So now it's turned the other way. Phoenix, I mean, it's happy to get. Charles has some bad ones on the board. This one is the, this blowing this lead for them at three, one with the Rockets team that seemed to be hobbled. Now also this is the year, this is the series where in game two, Darryl Garrison threw Clyde Drexler out of the game and it was such an egregious decision to throw him out of the game that Darryl Garrison did. And this back when we knew who all the reps were, Darryl Garrison did not ref another game that year 'cause he was so out of pocket in ejection. Like a lot was going on in the course of this. But somebody had to guard a large wand and I don't know what they was doing at first, but apparently that shit stopped working. (laughing) - Yeah man, he got it. - But there's no way and then you get to the kiss of death with Ellie hitting that shot and that's a wild play to watch too because the ball, or he has the ball on the right side of the floor about a hundred feet from the basket and it's this long skip pass, all the way to the end. way across that could not work if you did it in today's NBA because the old illegal defense rules made you stand much closer to your man. So I'm not sure who was supposed to be on Mario, but he's in the quarter and the past gets there and he hits and look, this isn't Clay Thompson, right? Like this isn't a, the rockets had a bunch of dudes who just made open shots, right? And they just, what they did have was nobody was afraid of the shot. Not a single person on that team is afraid of the shot. Mario, Ellie, who like played high school with Chris Mullin, like, he's a very New York street ball sort of dude. You, you didn't really want no problems with him. His nickname was Junkyard Dog. Yes. Hit the shot and hit him with the, like that guy. Where is young Joel when this is happening? It's not the scene. Where are you? Where are you on the TV? Are you screaming or real tears coming? Tell me about the night of kiss the death for you. This is really crazy that I actually remember this Sunday afternoon, right? It was Sunday afternoon. I was at my Nana's house on the east side of town. So it's Clinton Park, which is feeds into North Shore high school. So that's where my father lived at the time. He lived with my Nana. So I'm standing in my Nana's living room on her little TV that she used to sit right next to her. She's sitting in the corner and there was a little TV next to her. And usually it was like on, you know, CBS or something. But and I'm watching this shot, man. I watch, I can, you can't barely see. It's such a small screen. And I see Mario Ellie in the corner going up with this shot. And I'm like, oh, shit, what happened? Like, why is Mario, you know, why is Mario or Mario Ellie shooting this shot? The nerve, right? Yeah, I'm like, what? But again, like it was just like, wow, he's the one that got the shot. But it's not like we were afraid of him because the rockets at that point, like, this is just a collection of dudes. So we, if you got to the right and dial with Mario Ellie, and when it went in, man, I mean, I just, I know I scared my Nana because I'm crazy about the rockets. And I definitely was then. And yeah, man, I just couldn't, I couldn't believe it. Like, I mean, I didn't think, even then I don't think I thought that they were going to repeat, but I thought, man, that's something special about this team. And so after this is all done, Rudy T says that these boys had the heart of a champion. And it's like moments like that. Did he like, oh, yeah, like they, even if, even even at that point in the year when they beat, when they beat the suns and the Western Conference semis, I'm still like, well, I don't know if they're going to be able to be San Antonio. I don't know if they're going to be able to be Chicago Orlando or whoever they meet up in the finals. But they're still really, really good, man. And this is, this is what a championship defense looks like. And so yeah, so I was hype. Like I was proud of them that they were able to beat the suns again. And I mean, not that I would have been happy if they had lost. I still would have been happy. But I was just like, they've done enough to like, they've earned, you know, my undying gratitude and fandom and whatever for the rest of my life. Like I just, that was one of those moments, man, for real. You know, it was one thing I remember about that time in terms of like measuring the magnitude and sometimes you need somebody else to be a true proxy. Because again, like part of it's weird when you grow up in a city when you don't root for the teams, but I didn't even Joel will acknowledge this. He was the sometime about these teams. Like when, when, when, when your team is losing, you're just not there. Yeah. Like it's not like people are mad and watching the game like here in New York. People will be mad, but they still watching all the games, right? No, man, you start slipping for Houston. Man, they just get out of there. But then I remember in '94 watching like what devives were when they started winning. And this is obviously my first exposure to like a championship type of situation, right? And you just see the effect that it has on everybody including people. You're like, I know, Dan, well, you weren't rooting for this. You didn't care about this team just a couple of minutes ago, right? But the proxy that I had that was interesting was that my brother had been in grad school in Iowa and then packed up on that and came to Houston and was looking for a job. Okay. So he is 27 when this is going on. So that means I'm watching him root for the Rockets. Even though he's a big Barclay fan, right? But I remember I was watching him root for the Rockets. And I don't think he had any investment in the Rockets or any animus towards the Suns. It dawned on me what it was. Because when the Rockets won, it was cracking at the club day. Like something that I don't think that people in Joel touched on this a little earlier talking about like the black ecosystem. Houston is so full of places to kick it. Right? They are not. Not only not only places to kick it, places to kick it where people aren't bothering you. Yeah. Yeah. But they're not elaborate. Right? Like it's not about the lights. Everything else is like Houston is an eat and drink city. There's some of those Baltimore is a smaller example. But like what do you do to when you go hang out in Baltimore for a weekend? What do you do? You go eat and you go drink, right? Houston is a eat and drink and go to the club, go to the lounge, go to happy hour, whatever it was. And I remember if the Rockets would, my brother was getting his shit right and he was headed out. My mom, I'm like, where are you going to get a job? In those streets. And I never, I'm not old enough to appreciate the idea that just because the team is winning everything is cracking. I think one other thing that I do want to want to ask you guys, like when did Houston become the city? Not only like, I know who Stonians knew this, right? But when did Houston become the city that like players? Oh, this is a, this is actually a destination for us. This is where we actually want to go because we like the city. The secret is kind of out. But now it kind of always been that like what they play here. They didn't necessarily want to go play for the Rockets. But all those cats that they play for the Rockets, that's where they got their crib. Most blown. That's where the crib was at. Even in the 90s, Shack had a house in Houston. Like he had a house out in Sugar Land. So it's like, if you, and because you know, Shack is from San Antonio, he went to high school in San Antonio. So presumably he knew about Houston that way. But yeah, even growing up in Houston, and particularly if you play sports or whatever, you run often into like professional athletes and their kids that just happen to live in Houston. You know, it's like Moses, Malone, Jr. Like his, his, his most Malone made his home in Houston, don't go and Moses Malone played all over the NBA. But Houston was a place that he decided to settle. So it really was really about the late, the mid to late 90s that I felt like, Oh, okay. Like this is where every, the secret is out. Like you don't, you don't have to pay income tax here. The housing is cheap. You can get a lot of land and all you got to do as a ball play is pull up, but bro, go to your, your, your identify, your identify characteristics are taking care of all the rest. Max, Max is Roxy, you know what I'm saying? What up, city? Yeah, strip. I mean, bro, look, man, like that's his way. I saw, uh, Tarell Suggs talking about this with Kendrick Parkinson's other day, this clip. And it was just like, he said, uh, Suggs was saying he was talking with Jacobi Jones. He's like, Yo, man, for the break, we don't go to Houston. He's like, we're not gonna go to Atlanta. We're not gonna go to the beach. He's like, nah, Houston. And this is like 2014. And Suggs says they get down there. And he said, I ain't left since, you know what I'm saying? And what they want to say and then afraid to say it is that dog, Houston got women dog. He's the guy. The women, bro. We got. I was just, I told y'all just a few weeks ago. And I was like, make it. I almost forgot. You think other cities are ugly when you live in Houston, but you just don't realize this. It's just not a lot of cities like Houston. God, like I was glad we're from Houston to Atlanta. So it was a reasonable transition. But I can't imagine if I go off of Houston to some of the other places. I had just been walking around, sorry. Bro, I was using the foot worth it. I was like dog. Oh, yeah. That's what y'all doing. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Every city can't rock like that. So yeah. It is so amazing how some cities, God of the sub cities don't for whatever reason, right? Yeah. Houston, God. He's the God of Bobby. Look, man. Destiny's child dog. I mean, look, man, when Jay, you've got his woman, he went got one from the each dog, you know, because guys has told a different way. You know, so a few days after the kiss of death shot, David Robinson gets his MVP trophy in front of a key massage you want. But money, can you proceed to tell us what the key proceeded to do to David Robinson? Well, well, there's, well, there's an important detail here, which is that it's not simply that they gave him the trophy in front of a large wall is that David Robinson was the nicest man who has ever lived. Great guy by all accounts. He gave thanks to all the great big men that came before him and did not mention the previous years MVP, the previous years, finals MVP, the previous year, he was two time defense player of the year, came a large wall. He did not mention him. And the difference between a large water, David Robinson, David Robinson is not surly. A lot of ones very, very served. And what was that? He just, and I, I think the David Robinson's reputation has been permanently injured by what happened in that series. He's one of the greatest players of all time. He was a dude that was sent from the future. As my daddy says about here from college, he almost got navy to the final four. And by the way, him teens, he was all in San Antonio, feels a lot like navy. Like he had been out here by himself for the longest time too. And a large one destroy them, man. Just, just over and over and over. I'm gonna pull up the stats from all these games because it's just, it's, it's truly impossible for me to conceptualize the idea that a truly great NBA player. could have this happened to him. - Right. - What do you put up like? - Did he post like 40 in game one? - Yeah, 40 in game. - 41 and 16, by the way. - And to be fair, game two, as I recall, the day before the game, sports illustrated put out a cover story with Dennis Robman. That was entitled Rare Bird. Where he's on the cover and like-- - Written by Michael Silver. - Yeah, written by Michael Silver. Like a leather booster, yeah, with a parrot, and all of this stuff. It was the article we talked about having fantasies about having sex with other men and all of this stuff. - A wild night, if you read it. Just read it, if you ever get to read a story about it. - That's right, it's a trip to Vegas, right? - Yeah, he's like, "Mike, come pull up." And then he's there and is basically a night with Dennis Robman. - But the long of the short was Dennis Robman thought it was all about Dennis Robman in game two. The spurs never stood a chance. Dennis Robman only played 17 minutes in that game. - Yeah. - What's interesting though, too, if you read Dennis Robman-- - How do any put up six shots? Dennis Robman, Dennis Robman. - Six, that's actually a lot for him, man. - That's my point. - That's my point. - He's letting go, he's letting go, yeah, he got hype. So I read Dennis Robman's autobiography from that time too, 'cause I was in an era when I read athlete biographies. And his contention is that everybody on the spurs had realized that he was weak. - You did everything should be called him a coward. - I remember that. - The Avery Johnson, it called him out in a locker room and everything else. And so-- - I don't know. - I just hated him. Pop of his hated Dennis Robman. Just, you just had an utter disgust for him. - Yeah, man. I mean, he really created a mess down there, bro. And so yeah, it felt like it poisoned the well. So it was like, not only was David Robinson like dealing with the end of turmoil, he had like a pissed off dude. And like to Bermani's point, a large one was certainly, bro, when he was Aayah King and you watch video clips from the 80s of him punching people. Like you could probably got about a good 10, you probably was at least a good 10 clips of him, just punching people. - Yeah, Jerry. - But then a large one was not to be fucked with. - Yeah, man. - I'm telling you my favorite story on that one, right? - What's that? - My brother used to run with a cat who played very high level college basketball. And he was in Houston at the time. So he'd be at a lot of the games. He said, "Logewon be on the floor." And the rest made it called, "Logewon didn't like it. "Logewon stopped pointing at him." "Suck my dick!" (laughing) - Now, a older, a large one would point at him and say, "God will judge you for this." And they would take him for that. - He's still my slapy though. He's still my slapy though. - Still my slapy. - Yeah, now a large one, a large one just gave it to David. It is peak of his powers, a large one, gave it to possibly the best offensive player in the NBA. Over and over and over again. And by the way, in fairness to David Robinson, they came back in one, both of the next two games at the summit. David Robinson in game three, 10 for 15 from the floor, nine for nine from the line, 29 points, nine rebounds. Like he got back up off the mat, but the Rockets just gave it to him. Rockets was just a better team. - Yeah, yeah. And they wind up wrapping it up in six games. The Kima Lajuan averts 35 points, 13 rebounds, five blocks. And this is a quote from David Robinson on the team. I think it was the worst moment of my professional career when after game six in Houston going back into that locker room and hearing the announcements tickets to the NBA finals will go on sale Friday. And I'm like, "Oh man, this is horrible." And they went on to beat Orlando and the finals is what we're gonna talk about now. When they go and beat, how are you feeling now? Joe, the Rockets are, after all, this are back in the NBA finals. They're going to play a young man by the name of Shaquille O'Neal and another young man by the name of Penny Hardaway. Are you scared at this point? This is coming weeks after Nick Anderson steals the ball from Jordan, Jordan gives it to him after changing his number back to 23. But it just still wasn't the same Mike. They beat the Bulls. They do have Horace Grant. They have Nick Anderson. They have Penny Hardaway. This is a really, really explosive team, young team, but explosive, nonetheless. What were you thinking? Well, I mean, the thing is, I didn't really know what to think at that time because I'm like, what are the Rockets with defendant champs? Now, I felt like that whole year they were weezing to the finish line, right? And so the thing that I was scared about was like, man, the magic seems so young and dynamic and fast in a way. And I was like, some of the Rockets game was to speed the game up because they didn't have big guys anymore. But I'm like, do you really want, are you going to be able to outrun Anthony Hardaway and Youngshack? 'Cause I mean, look back then. People see the Lakershack or whatever. (laughing) Magic, magic shack dogs. (laughing) Hey, man, that was a bad big motherfucker, bro. Like nobody has ever been lighter on their feet at that side. Like, he had frayed his teeth. Especially at that time. Hold on, nobody's ever been that size. Yeah, nobody's that size. I didn't get to the light on the feet part. I'm going to be honest with you. I like, I've seen Victor with a young person. I've seen Yoming in person. And I've seen Shaquille O'Neal in person. Shack is the most intimidating player I've ever seen. In terms of, you know, just how big he is and how tall he is. And when he shakes your hand, it disappears. All those things. Shaquille O'Neal is probably the biggest human I've ever seen in my life. And that is including the tall guys that I've seen. Oh, look, I covered the Rockets when they hit Yow. And I'll never forget one time I was covering the. I guess it was the Rockets and Lakers. They played in the first round of the playoffs in like 2003. And 2004. 2004, 2004. That's like Jeff Van Gandhi was coached still then and everything. And so, like, I go into the locker room. And I know that Shaquille's big. I've been in rooms which I know Shaquille's seven foot, one and seven foot two. But he looked down at me. And he had to look like it looked like a giant was looking at me. He looks all the way down to high Joel. And I felt like a child. Like I just never had been in the presence of another adult that made me feel like a child. So he was humongous even now. And not only that, he's the big guy that plays practical jokes. So you're always going to have to be in your feet. And then it brings a little bit of more intimidation that he's always fucking with you. Yeah, it's crazy though. 'Cause you tell me, Bo, 'cause again, I don't know what this was. But the 90s was sort of different for me in terms of black culture. Because I saw Shaquille blowing up man at this time when he was rapping and doing movies. I think maybe he had done Shazam already by then or maybe it was coming up. And people were like, oh man, Shaquille's not too serious. He's in the rap. And I kind of felt like, I was like, why are people like Shaquille's graded basketball? Like why are people being so critical of him? And they're like, all he can do is dunk. Well, I was like, was shit. That's all he needed. And there's one thing you can do. Yeah, all right. He wants to do is run, go routes. Yeah. And I had a lot of sympathy for Shaquille, but also like I was just sort of proud to see him out there. Like he seemed like a good, fun, bubbly dude who was also crazy athletic. And so when they went up, I had a Orlando Magic jacket and not a Houston rocket jacket. Yeah, the magic, the magic were a phenomenon. Yeah. Right? So Shaquille for me, David Robinson sort of fits this where it's the sure thing guy in the draft, right? The draft is coming. Whoever wins is going to take that guy. And we think that guy's immediately going to be very good. David Robinson had to go to do two years on the boat, but then he showed up and nothing was the same, right? Shaq in year one did not produce in the same way that Robinson did, but it was obvious immediately. He was tearing down bagboards. He was, he just had a run those first two years where he dunked on everybody. He dunked on Lajewani, gave morning a bad one, he gave you wing a bad one, like everybody got their turn of Shaquille O'Neal dunking on them. And buckling goals. He did that like twice, right? Right, right. He said the one he brought down from the top and then he had the one he brought down from the bottle. Yeah. And he was on TV all the time. It was I felt like he was always on inside stuff. And then the next year they got pity hard away. I was such a pity hard away fan that I had a pity hard away Jersey. And I was at that age where you grow fast if I got another pity hard away, Jerry. Yeah, man. Like it was just a matter of stepping up. Also the magic jerseys were so icy. The black one was the white stuff. It was so fly. The colors of flies. But they were fly because they was wearing them. We wasn't saying that shit was fly before. They put them on. Right. But we, I thought that year that 95 magic team was a bit of a phenomenon. The thing was in retrospect, we never would have picked them. Although I guess some of us picked the spurs this year, but they not want to play off game coming into this year. Like if you asked me to go pick this series again, I would have picked the rockets. Like knowing what I know about sports at this point, with the magic looked to be a superior team. They sit in Michael Jordan hole. Like, you know, they, they, the Pacers who seemed like to be the other team that was ascending in that same way. They sent them home. Shack's average in 30 points a game. Pity hard away is like. A lot of 20, 11, 2012 Thunder in this team, right? Where they're just waiting. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you don't really know who they are. Except the difference is the 20, well, the 2012 Thunder, this is more like the 2011 Thunder. Because the 2011 Thunder had happened before 2012 and they got into the conference finals. But even then, Kevin Durant was not Shack, right? Was not, the game was not in such a way. It did, the game that then prioritized the big man was much different. Shack was so much bigger, even Elijah Watt, as good as he was. Elijah Watt's like six, nine and a half. And he's so much smaller than Shack was. And the magic hand home court, right? They had the best record in the East. I think they better handle it. I think San Antonio has the best right. Definitely. It's not even making the argument, they were the more talented team and you could see that again. No question. No question. Nick Anderson has never been the same since then, but the way we looked at Nick Anderson, the way we looked at Dennis Scott, by then we're not that far removed from Dennis Scott being an awesome college basketball player. Yeah. A somewhat revolutionary, small forward with the way that he shot threes and everything else. And we have been watching them. As he said, I can't explain to you how many times they played on national television. He saw them play so much. And then the rockets hung in and they gave one, they hung in that game one and even when Nick Anderson missing those four free throws, it took it a large one tip in, which is crazy because shacks on the floor, a large one made that tip in for them to win the game. And then in game two, that's when that young, that young was the issue. They didn't show up the magic did not show up at all, it was over. Like my old ass now could look at that and immediately been like, oh, oh, oh, this is it. It's a wrap here. Remind of me a lot of this this year's Nick's team, though, like where it's like clearly that the spurs are the more talented team. But every time it got down the stretch, you knew the Knicks were just going to win if it was close enough. Yeah. They were always in that game. That's what it felt like looking back on this team. You only felt that though after at the very end, it may be maybe somewhere in the first half of the game too, because even after game one, I thought, oh, that was a fluke. Now, I didn't realize that Nick Anderson was going to be ruined forever. Right. Right, Mr. Couple shot. Yeah. I just thought it's like, that's tough, but he'll be back. You're like, you behind. He'll be okay. He'll come back from that. Shoot up. Yeah. Yeah. He's a professional. It'll be fine. But I mean, the magic can still just kick the Rockets ass at whole game one. Like I was just like, man, that took a lot of effort for them to get back in that game. I don't know if they can do that again. Game two showed that like, oh, okay. Rockets got this. I don't, like, I don't even really remember much of the finals after that, because I was like, once they went up to oh, I was like, they got it. This is it. You know, the magic, as I recall, the magic came strong in game three, but then game four was just like, that was a one, two, three, can't cool. Yeah. Like, not totally. The magic didn't fold up, but it was a coordinate. It felt like a game on coordination, man. Yeah. No, I mean, and that's why the Rudy town, John, of his never underestimate the heart of a champion thing. There really is something to what happens when you win a championship. Right. Like, the part of that that fully solidified things for me was in the bubble, and the Toronto Raptors were down to like their last game at the end. And this is without Kawaii Leonard. And I watched them turning to a swarming machine, and I was like, these are guys that just two years ago, we said, didn't have it in them. And then they won that championship and something came out of them like, there's something different that happened. It's a calm. It's a calm. Yeah. Like we have done this before, and we are now perfectly aware of how hard it is to do this. And we have to dial it up, what it means to dial it up. And so for this team, you talk about the call, the jazz, Carvalones, the notorious choker. Yeah. Um, you know, you get to the next round. Charles Barkley never got there. And the ending for Charles Barkley on their closest times. A lot of it involves Charles Barkley running late to try to block somebody shot. I mean, look, man, he brought that shit over to the Rockets couple. He's laid a tube out of way. You know, and he was a really good player that year, right? Like you played really well. But having won a championship is something different. And the magic learned that the spurs are a great example of that. Like, hey, just dude's going to run the league, but for right now, that guy does. Yeah. Okay. So, um, it was a sweep after that first game of really, like you said, but it really wasn't that entertaining. I mean, the first one, I barely remember because, well, actually, I'm going to tell you, it's a very, this is a very Joel reaction to the first championship after I'm driving home after the next championship from my dad's house on the east side and I'm in my car and I've been waiting my whole life for a championship. And I was like, damn, dawg, I'm not going to get no championship ring, you know, and it kind of bummed me out a little bit. A little bit. What the hell was that? I was like, I was like, I said, did all this shit, I was like, I did all this shit. I'm not even. Jesus Christ. Is that weird? We got our Joel moment. What the fuck? What the fuck? Don't say about it. Don't say about it. Don't everybody. Everybody. That does not say anything. Just for a little while and let it settle with us what just happened. Yeah. That's crazy man. You're tired. You're tired. Go ahead. All right, we know. Got it, man. But no, but the next year, because it seems so unexpected, because I you couldn't enjoy the first. I mean, it's a game seventh and it was down to the wire in that first year. And so then you get there and just like, oh, sort of the, you know, the banality of life. The second, the repeat championship, I didn't expect it. I didn't, that whole year, I didn't expect anything like that to happen. They beat a team that I really think that if the magic, if it had been a best of 19 series, I think the magic would have won. I thought the magic would have won. I'm sorry. Did you think you were going to get your ring this year? Did you think that? No. So this year. I was wondering that. This year, I'm watching a game for my cousin's house in third world. We have some girls over whatever. And then they win and then we flood into the streets, man, we went on Richmond strip where they knocked off a stop and go and they were doing a run on that. We went to the club. And so that I enjoyed that one, like that championship felt like a real champion. The first one I kind of was like, but the second one, that was just like a real, oh, man, like we're a championship city. Like, and. God, I'd just stop and go. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it going on on Richmond, man. They got you, bro. I didn't go in there. I didn't do that. But it was just like, damn, they were going broke. But it just, yeah, it was just like a catharsis. It just felt really, really good also that we just got to enjoy the finals and it didn't have to be nerve-wracking. We were in control the whole time and we won and it just stamped us and it stamped that error. Like you could never just say the rockets were a fluke. Like I know a lot of people try to discredit the championship by talking about who wouldn't there or whatever, but a two championship run in the middle of that, you just can't discount my rockets, bro. And they ran and they ran through every other superstar, yeah, everybody, everybody got a piece. Yeah. Part of it got it twice below and got it twice, Patrick, you and got it, Jack got it. Like, they were obviously for both the 94 and 95 playoffs combined. He'll came a lot of you on average, 28, 9, 28.9 points, 11 rebounds and 4.3 assists. How many blocks? I like four blocks problem, his block numbers were crazy and his block numbers went crazy in the playoffs because also he's playing like, yeah, no, he average three blocks a game in the 90, in the 95 one and in the average four blocks at a 94 playoffs, it's say, it's utterly insane. Crazy. One of the greatest runs of all time, I believe it is the greatest center run of all time. I want to go look back and I think there's the ones that are comparable, I think is 67 Will too, they won the championship in Philly and he went through Nate Thurman and went through Bill Russell and then I think after that was the closest one was maybe 77 cream, but they lost to Bill Walton. Yeah, about 2000. He really had power to shake 2000, but 2000, Shaq didn't have the centers or he didn't have he didn't have. I see. I see it. So in terms of competition against centers, I think it's the greatest run that a front court man had ever had. Shaq is probably number two just for the other dominance and I think that that overtakes the fact that he didn't have as much competition. I would argue that 2001 Shaq was better than 2000 Shaq and the playoffs because he played and went up against David Roberts and Antim Duncan and then went into the finals and just put they swept him through the basket. Yeah. And they swept him and they swept the spurs and they and they had a gentleman sweep of those sixers teams, but that is the the Houston Rockers championship season. Let's go to the categories before any more Tom Foolery from Joel Anderson. And we are back with categories, the biggest one, biggest what if I have some what ifs before we get to the obvious biggest what if there is what if Hakim gets traded in 93, this run doesn't even happen. And you know, Michael kind of is this the ghost that not only of this Rockets team, but of Hakim allows you on Houston sports in general, right? Where, you know, they lose the University of Houston loses to North Carolina in the semifinals of the 1983 final four. And then, you know, just Jordan reigns over, but the biggest what if this is what if Jordan plays and what is what is your what what is your answer to that if Jordan is fully healthy during 95 and he's not playing not golfing, he's not playing baseball. What happens what what happens in your eyes if that is the case, what is what is the argument that they that the bulls continue their reign and what is your arguments that they don't but well, I don't know what happens in 95 necessarily, but I think the Rockets beat him in 94. I think or at least one of those one, the bulls had no answer for a large one. Yeah. And I think we overstayed a little bit like how good Vernon was against Mike. He was just good to doing in similar size. But the truth is, the people who think that the bulls go win eight championships in a row, that man broke down from exhaustion after the three, you know, like to me, that's a big part of it. They had no answer for a large one. Um, and I just don't think the the bulls had enough. I do want to push back though on the idea of Jordan as ghost. And Joe, you correct me if I'm wrong. Houston never raised the what if we had Jordan argument, ever. Like it's the greatest testament to a large one, even in the bad times, even in all this. There was never, there's no Sam Booie to this. There's no even what the, how their careers went by. You still take a large one, number one. Well, yeah, just the nature of that lead, you do it. But um, no, there's, I never, ever got the feeling that people in Houston ever felt like they ever had the wrong guy. No, it was that. So like I don't think my brother always makes the point that the legend of Jordan from the 82 final four is retroactive that in real time, that's not how people looked at it. It became part, a larger story was built. And then that part became raised up like if in the shot is a thing, but like keep smart. Hit that shot for Indiana in 1987. There's no difference between those two shots. Um, but no, a large one was Houston's and that was always good enough. Yeah, that's what I agree. Like we never spent a lot of time fretting about not having Jordan. And if anything, I mean, we enjoyed our own championships. We didn't spend a lot of time thinking about the bulls. I would argue that a lot of this didn't get started on social media, whatever the argument about what would happen if Jordan had played, but we were just happy with what we had. And we, you know, we lived and died with Drain. We saw what happened in the final fours. You know, he grew up in front of us, uh, you know, changed it. I mean, again, added the H to his game became more devout in his, in his, in his Islam, uh, married a local Houston girl, you know, so I mean, yeah, we, I don't think we would have traded anything. I, I still wouldn't. I still like the fact that I got the root for a, a came a large one when I did. So yeah, no, he's, we don't, we didn't spend a lot of time fretting about not getting MJ. Another biggest, uh, what if the, the, the rockets attempted to trade, uh, robberdorian, Sam Kassel to the Detroit Pissons for Sean Elliott, but the deal was nullified after Elliott failed to physical, uh, to me, the, or so you want to talk about a strong rebrand. Robert or he brought 95 and post 95, reviewed, but Robert or he used to do the double shit. Joe, you know, easy to throw the ball into the crowd. And then it was like space out like when they traded him, that was almost by popular demand. I was kind of like, I kind of like shot at you. Let's see what happens. And this is here too, right? And the people weren't that keeping in mind that people wanted the rockets to say, hero, minor, they took Robert or he, because people thought hero, minor was baby Jordan. But even still that trade, it is wild that they put it back together, right? They was just like, all right, well, this is what it's going to be. Okay, you're here now. I think they would have been a worse team had they made that trade because I'm not a big Sean Elliott fan. The only thing he, Sean Elliott, would have been great for the way they were played. Just a bunch of wide open threes. Well, yeah, I mean, to think about, or you know, I don't know if you remember this, but I feel like when he got drafted, there were, this is going to sound crazy, but I know I'm not making this up. That people have these comparisons to Scotty Pippin. Then he was athletic and he was going to be kind of a point forward. But I mean, which is crazy because it's both said he played center in college. He was a center of the play point guard. Yeah. So it's like even that kind of, but so by that comparison, everybody kept waiting for all right, well, if he's not going to average 25 of a game, when the rest of this all around, smart defensive game will come right and he never quite did. I mean, that's just not who Robert or he is. And so we would, you know, yeah, there was a lot of disappointment around him. And we thought that Sean Elliott, we needed offense, thought that would be the thing that worked. But yeah, it, you know, thankfully for everybody, the trade worked out well, maybe not Sean Elliott, but it was the beginning of anybody got a kidney. Yeah, you know, so let me hold one. Let me shout out, shout out, shout out, Sean Elliott. But yeah, man, you know, you didn't, it didn't work out for you. But for everybody else, we were just kind of like, yeah, I mean, like, I'm glad that Robert or he made it back and they started to show more trust in it. Like, I think him getting traded, I think actually helped him mentally too, right? Because he's like, well, what, what difference does it make? I think he even said something along those lines is like, I might as well go out here and be me and shoot with confidence. So, uh, biggest cliche sports moment, I think we have that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Logan, you missed the biggest what else? What's the biggest what if I apologize? If the Sonic's had been able to be, if the Sonic's got through one of them years, that is the one because then boys was, then boys was a problem. The Rockets could not fuck with the Sonic's man. You saw I have it in 96 like, when the, when the Rockets beat the Sonic's in 97, people were responding the same way as like, the Rockets making the finals. Yes, yeah. Finally, we broke through not winning a championship, but making the fights. beating the Sonic's man. Okay. Okay. Okay. The Sonic's were a thing. The Sonic's had choke man. I don't know if those Rockets runs had that was a team I'll scare them more than the booze. So yeah, but it is funny because those Sonic's choking then leads into 95 where they lost in the first round and Nick band excellent bloody diva, which I don't think happens if they win the year before. That's right. That's right. That's right. Biggest cliche sports moment, Rudy Tom Johnovich never underestimate the heart of a champion. This is an interesting one. How did this team and their win change the NBA if at all? They are the first team to truly play a, we're going to shoot a gang of threes off it. It doesn't seem that way when you look back at the raw numbers, but they, the 94 team, for example, they led the league. I think at three points, three point is a temperature three point is made. Like Rudy brought it in. We go get the bottle. Basically the old line magic before time. Very, very similar. I think that, I think that might be the best comparison to make, but it is, it's a long process, but I do think that team was part of the beginning acceptance of the role of the three pointer in modern basketball. And when you think about it again, when you're center six, nine, they were playing a form of small ball by the time you get to 95. This is apex mountain, which player coach executive event in the franchise orbit were at their peak when this happened. I guess you can make you can make the argument that this was high King's absolute peak as a player. Is this Joe crazy for broke. It's a large water Rudy. Otherwise, nobody else can say this. Oh, yeah. I mean, Rudy really, could Kenny Smith. This is a kiddie Smith apex mountain here. I mean, no, probably not TNT inside the NBA is probably apex mountain. No, no, no, but no, but that is a good, that's a good pull because that those two championships get as a player. I think this is apex mountain for Kenny Smith. Yeah, but he was sitting in fourth quarters for Sam. I know. That's right. But that championship that game one of the 95 finals is probably why Kenny Smith is sitting where he is. Obviously, he's been very good at his job. Like, I mean, he he's lasted through magic, Chris Weber, all these other people. So he's obviously really good at his job. And he has chemistry with Chuck, but that game right there gets him into that and gets him into and gets him onto that path. And so I think that's a big deal. But yeah, to your point, but Rudy T, man, because Rudy T gets the coach of the Olympics after that, they made the Lakers made a run at him after that. He's a Hall of Famer, but those two championships, man, dream. I mean, you know, that's that's as good as it ever got for Rudy, Tom John. Yeah, like Rudy wound up making the Hall of Fame, but people really do kind of treat Rudy like, okay, he I eat, right? Except we were there. Yeah. The second he got the job. It's different. His offense in general transforms his team. The the the the one center for out that literally transforms them into every memory. It wasn't like that in 94, it really like 94 was the beginning of it because he had O team, but 95, it was like, okay, we're and Clyde Drexler became a spider three point shooter. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that I think about it with with Houston and the rockets is like when you talk about when you see the Ralph Samson and Akim allows you on years, it's it's great because they're twin towers, but by and large in NBA history, that doesn't work. You know, when you have two guys that are of of of a big height. So when you have a guy like Akim, Elijah was actually easier if you just put all these shooters around him. You didn't know that in 1986, but that was the model. I think that we got here. That's probably the Apex mountain for, you know, futuristic basketball, Joe. But oh, let me just say it's Ray Fass. I'm sorry. Samson doesn't get hurt. There's an argument that it evolves into a four out with him anyway, because don't forget he was not the center. He was the seventh foot four. He's powerful for it. That's right. That's right. And I was going to say like, I don't, I mean, they made it to the finals. They beat the Showtime Lakers, man. Like who's the thing is the 86 Celtics, which is what was the greatest Celtics team? Yeah, they got they got two they got two games off the Celtics and one of them in Boston. I think Boston had lost one home game that entire year. So like they were pretty special. And the reason that that doesn't work is because nobody is able to put together the combination of Akima, Lajuan and young healthy Ralph Samson. Now I would argue if you could do that, then maybe the twin tower thing works. But like, that's just you never going to get that kind of a combination, man. Is this a apex mountain as Houston as a sports city? I mean, I don't see any counter argument. Yeah. I mean, I guess it depends on what you think about the Astros years. But I think that's different. Yeah. I mean, I haven't lived in Houston. Full Thompson's 2005. So for the entirety of my life, that is the that's the height, right? Like it comes right as the the Oilers are falling apart and then eventually move. You know, so we don't have the Oilers for a long time and the Texans are sorry for a long time after that. The Astros win their championships. But even then, you know, people are trying to do the asterisk thing with the trash can ship. So you can't take the championship, those Rockets championships away from this, bro. Like, like, you, like, you have 1980, the Astros go to the world series. And then 81, the Rockets go to the finals. But that was a 40 and 42 team. Um, that did that. You have, we talked about it before, 86, where the Rockets go to the finals and the Astros go to the world series. And I think they lose game six. I'm not the world series, the national championship series. I was going to lose game six and like 29 innings or something like that. And both of those scenes playing against two of the greatest teams of all teams, all time great teams in their respective sports. Um, but yeah, I don't, it went back to back champion. I mean, outside of the Astros, those are the only championships. And then back to back, back to back. It's hard to do, man. Yeah, man, especially at any point, at any point of this. And then we make this point about that Jordan shit. Don't nobody say that about the 99 spurs, right? Like what, like what championships do and don't count? Cause Michael Jordan wasn't there. You know what I think is it with the argument? The reason why I think the argument gives gets legs for the Rockets more than the spurs is because we saw what the bulls when they got back, right? You saw this. Yeah, but that was a, I was like, I'm really color is it. And but you get those arguments towards the end when my generation, right? Where we always see I'm doing research. You guys lived it. I'm doing research on this. But hey, huh, they couldn't, they couldn't be like what Jordan was like a God. There's no way that they could have beat him. But I think as we get on and older and older, you know, you have different, a little bit of different perspective. But who won the year by money? It's got to be a Kim, a large one. Like that takes a Kim, a large one from high level Hall of Famer to industry will all the time. Great. Yeah, I got him. I got Mario Ellie. Dude, Mario Ellie, I like, I feel like if Mario Ellie hadn't gone to play for the spurs. His Houston legend status is a little bit different. Yeah. I mean, but you know what, his job is Joel, Joel hates the spurs. You have to keep it in mind. He didn't just win a championship. He went there and was like, yo, before I got here, we would say these cats were soft. And now that I'm here, I'm telling you to soft. I mean, but man, Mario Ellie man, I know you say he wanted to, it's, but he married a Houston TV broadcast to Gina. Oh, I didn't know he married to Gina. He's still in that gin gassing. I had two kids that played basketball at Memorial High School. So he's a Houston guy now, you know, even though he wanted San Antonio. So I feel like Mario, he knew where his, you know, he knew where his bread was buttered. Man, he's a legend around the kiss of death. You'll never be able to take that away from him. And that's the clutch. Clio. Don't you think I'm gonna say what's your argument for Clyde? There's an argument to be made for Clyde Drexler winning this year, right? He begs to bring us them from the argument there, right? Like what is, what would you say could give him the edge bow? That's a good question. Like I don't know how people view Clyde's ring, you know, he was a ringer. He was, but he wasn't, you know what I mean? Like the little tricky. That's a great question. Oh, because they don't want the championship without them, right? Oh, of course not. No, we don't know. Yeah, that leads to this question. There's only one answer for this one who lost the year. Mr. Vernon Maxwell, right? I think we can all agree on that one, right? It has to see his team when it's idle. Is there anybody you think that could take that cake, Joel? Man, that's a tough one. That probably is right. I mean, because if Vernon says that he misses that, you know what I'm saying? That that's a real hole in his career. And he was really, he was really close to the city. He was really close to that team. And I'm sure that like watching that at a distance probably had to hurt. He would have to, I mean, did he still get a ring ball? Did he still get a ring out of that? He did get a ring. He did get a ring out of that? Yeah. But that's, that's tough, man. And so, yeah, I, I wish he had been there in retrospect. Because that's one of the, again, he wasn't the best juicing basketball players. Now, he wanted to top, top 10 Rockets of all time. But he's one of my top three favorite Rockets of all time. Yeah. And it's just kind of sucks that he couldn't have gotten a championship ring out of it. Antihiro. Antihiro, man. I mean, it was bad. Man, when I found out that Vernon Maxwell was an all-state safety in Florida, so much that everything made more sense about his, his basketball career, you know? Ain't nothing like football players playing basketball, man. Ain't nothing like it. And then like it in the world, especially football players from Florida. Um, man, that has been another edition of NBA lore, uh, Rockets edition, the 1994, 1995 season. Joel, did you get through this? Okay. We good? You feeling good? I got to remember some good times, man. Good. No, I would, I would, I would love to have, I would love to pass that on to my son someday. So yeah, yeah. Michelle, thank you guys. Thanks for what's both for doing this. Thanks for what's dope for doing this. Maybe we'll do this again sometime, NBA lore, real ones, peace.