Ring for Analysis: Jose Mourinho’s Real Madrid Rebuild

♫ ♫ ♫ Hello! And welcome to the TFO Football Podcast. I'm Joe Devine and I'm delighted to be joined by John McKenzie. - Hello! - Hello! Now, this is an episode of Ring for Analysis. How does Ring for Analysis work? Well, I'll tell you. I read an article that was published by a terrific journalist working at the Athletic and John rings a bell that sounds like this when he wants me to stop so that he can interrupt and do some analysis. - I feel I've really nailed that in the time that we've been doing Ring for Analysis. Just the explanation there, yeah. - Yeah, sort of messed it up a little, I messed up the pacing a little bit. - Yeah. - But no, do you know it's hard, it's harder than it looks to nail. Anyway, what are we doing? Well, listen, what we're doing today, here's the name of the article. Just a marina's rail Madrid rebuild. How the Spanish Giants spend 260 million euro this summer. John, what did we talk about on today's episode? - We talked about how you should pronounce euro versus euro. - I did it incorrectly there. - Yeah, maybe euro. I think you're okay doing that, to be honest. - Okay, I think language is fluid enough for that to be okay. - This is interesting, isn't it? Because what's happened is in the intro, we've come to a sort of, the kind of resolution that takes a bit of an hour of processing to get to just before we have the argument after the intro. - But we do that. We also talk a lot about round Madrid's transfer rebuild this summer. Was it Galactico's window, probably not? - Well, no, no, no, no. We agreed that it was a Galactico window, but without any actual Galactico's in it. - Yeah, that was the rule, I think. - What would Jose Mourinho, Mark II, look like at round Madrid? The tactical landscape shifting, lots of pronunciation conversations. - Yeah, we did a lot of that. - So conversations about dominant send of backs. - Yes, first class, full backs. - We did a lot of that as well. - Ten post-setting midfielders. - But yeah, I thought it was a good conversation about where round Madrid have comfortably won their first three games in the league. So it's looking pretty good for them. It looks like the decision to bring in Jose Mourinho is a smart one right now, but let's see how the season unfolds. - Well, that's the other thing. We also talk about short-termism. And is there really any value in not being short-termist anymore in the current-- - At the very elite level, right? - At the very elite level. Who knows? Who knows? Well, there you go. That's what we talk about on today's episode. So after this little bit of music, we shall get started with ring for analysis. Okay, John, as a reminder, this article is called Jose Mourinho's Rail Madrid Rebuild. How the Spanish Giants spent 260 million euros Euro Euro or Euro's. - I think Euro's is what I would say. - Yeah, but could you say 260 million Euro? - I guess you could. That feels a little bit more dated to me. That feels like £100 million. - Yeah, you wouldn't say that. - But I'd say £100 million. - No, but you'd have to use it as a £100 million. - £100 million player, you would say, wouldn't you? - I spent £100 million on this. No, I wouldn't say that. You're right. I spent £100 million on this. - But I do feel like when we first used the word Euro, people might say it 260 million Euro. - Yeah. It's 260 million Euro in that sort of way. - Okay, interesting pronunciation of Jose as well, you sort of-- - You just say. - Well, I've tried to emulate the way that the Portuguese say. - Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate that. - You get all the different mixes that you get the Jose, which is wrong. - That's annoying. - I find that one quite annoying. - He's Portuguese. - He's famous enough that you should know that it's Jose. - And he's famously Portuguese, right? - And he famously said it in the Spanish documentary. - Yeah, he's like, my name is Jose Morrino. - Maybe people don't know, right? The rule is, if you're Portuguese or Brazilian, because they speak Portuguese in Brazil, your jays are not-- - They're jules. - They're aspirated. - Okay, so you got Jose, but then also, you know, Jose is fine. People can say Jose Morrino, that's absolutely fine. But what he says, he says, Jose. - Jose. - Jose Morrino. - It's not even the A, it's like Jose. - Jose. - Jose Morrino. - Jose Morrino. - Anyway, he's done a Real Madrid Rebellion. - He has. - They spent 260 million euro this summer. This article was written by Mario Cortagana. - Nice. - Now, just to be clear, the G is more of a chah sound in that name, because he's Spanish. - Spanish is a pronunciation semantic feel that I'm a little bit uncomfortable with, because I feel like they have so many dialects. - Yes. - So, some people will say Jirona. - Yeah. - And some people will say Jirona. - Jirona. - I think they pronounce it Jirona, in Jirona. - Because it's in Catalan, right? - Is that right? - It's in Catalonia. - Okay, so I think in Catalan, it is Jirona, not Jirona. - But then it's Chetafé. - Yes, it's Chetafé. And also, there's the royal Z thing, is it a myth? Is that a myth? - I don't know what you mean by the royal Z, but there's lots of Zs in one of the dialects. - Well, the myth, I think it could be a myth, is that the reason that they say "the" for "Z" is because the Spanish king, once upon a time, had a list, and so everyone had to imitate that. I think that's not true. - It's probably not true. - Let me just, let me look it up. Why do Spanish people pronounce "Z" as "the"? Let's see what the Google AI overview has to say. In European Spanish, the letter "Z" and "C" before "E" or "I" is pronounced as a voiceless "the"? Due to historical, phonetic evolution from medieval Spanish siblings. So it's not about the king. The king, myth, a common urban legend, claims that the Spanish king had a list and his subjects copied him, but linguists have proven that this myth is. - I think it's false. - The basic rule is any kind of linguistic shift that takes place is just through ease of pronunciation. - Right. - So, yeah, if anything is hard to say, and there's an easier way of just aligning the letters, people will just do it. - Which is why in English, we would say, don't do that instead of do not do that. - Yeah, yeah. - It's a lot more informed. - And it's why the most irregular verbs are the most common used words, right? - Right what? - As in "Ran, Ran", like stuff like that. It's because the words are used so much that they evolve into quicker. - Got it. - Quicker words. - Do not continue telling me this. - In it. - Okay. Now anyway, it's Mario Cortejana, a fabulous journalistic works for the athletic. This piece was published, oh, it's just yesterday, September the 2nd, as we speak, 2026. Okay, I shall begin when you're ready for me, John. - I'm good to go. - Here we go. At the end of April, Rayal Madrid were heading into a decisive meeting with Barcelona, knowing defeat, would hand the La Liga title to their classical rivals. Even victory would have likely only prolonged the inevitable. Madrid were almost certain to end the season without a major trophy for a second consecutive year. That is a big deal for the 15-time European champions. The last time it happened was in 2009-10. Back then, José Moreno was brought in as manager. Fiorentina Perez, I call him Fiorentina, like Fiorentina, my bad. Fiorentina Perez had a plan. - Perez. - Perez, I don't know. - Okay, they plan. - That was a bit Russian, though. - I think so. - Nobody saw it coming, but by the end of April, the athletic reported that the 63-year-old Portuguese manager was Madrid President Perez's favorite option to take over from Alvaro Arbaloa. Yes, John. - I just wanted to stop here, 'cause this is weird in many respects, isn't it? Going back to Moreno after whatever it was, 20 years, when was he there joined in 2010? - Not quite 20 years. - He joined in 2010, so 16 years. - When he was first there, but he was there for three seasons. - Yeah. - So 13 years. - And it's interesting at this point, maybe, to talk about Moreno's careers in terms of trophies, because last league title he wins is in 2015. - With Chelsea. - Yeah. And he wins the famous league title in 2011, 12 with Real Madrid, where they score 109 goals. - And they interrupt Barcelona's, you know, one of the world's greatest evidence. - Yes, on the pep. But very much at this point, it feels as though he's starting to sort of downward curve a little bit. - You mean now? - No, in 2010, when he joins. And the fact that they've brought him back in now, I think is really interesting from the perspective of, well, I mean, we'll talk about this no doubt in the upcoming article, but within the context of the stuff that I've been talking about a lot recently in terms of tactical landscape shifting. - I've got questions for you about that. - Yeah, okay, well, I'm sure we'll get into that. But, yeah, I'm interested to talk about this. And also, I think, you know, I think Real Madrid in many respects is almost like an outlier, right? It feels like you can do things at Real Madrid that you can't really do anywhere else. - The normal rules don't apply. - Yeah, which is why I think you can say the same thing with Carlisle and Chilote, right? You can make the argument that he was probably on a bit of a downward curve before he rejoins. He has period of evidence and a period of nappily. And people are sort of starting to be like, yeah, you know, his time's gone and then go to Real Madrid and house that sort of revival. - What's happening, I think, is the, you know how fashion often follows the fashion of 20 years before. So, for example, about 10 years ago, everyone was reliving the 80s and then five years ago it was the 90s and now it's the 2000s. I think Florentina Perez is doing the same thing with football managers. So, he was reliving the 90s when he hired Carlo and Chilote, famous AC Milan team, cutting edge, all the best stuff. And now he's reliving the 2000s by hiring just a merino. Next, he'll try and hire Zidane again. - Right, yeah. I have a, my parents have a friend from university who comes to visit them every year. - Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. - This friend is, is from. universe so they were a university together yeah my primary friend was this friend there's no true couple friends unless the other couple is a couple I think they were I don't know that's good question was dad the primary or mom well I think now mom is the primary friend oh and my dad is but I don't know my dad was the primary initially I don't think no I think that they knew him together right no one ever truly knows someone together but I think I just want to say that I think in church circles that's maybe the way like I think you just know people by like there's always a primary spark though isn't that come on there's always one maybe um we're saying either way yeah I don't know I genuinely don't know I'll have to ask apples anyway he was at this time he was wearing these like three quarter length like trackies from Adidas blue like the old style yeah and he has only ever worn these ever since I've known him I presume he buys new versions of the same one right where he's still wears them now still wears them now I'm old as he of same age as my parents so in his 70s I've not seen him a man that old worth three quarter length trousers yeah I guess not he's he is remarkably young looking for his right he's got a shins out he his parents were from the Caribbean right I called Duke he's a great guy but he wore these trousers I've known him for whatever it is now I mean four years I guess and he's always worn these trousers and I he has come back into fashion I feel like these these trousers have been like in and out fashion a few times and a broken clock but but yeah but just by nailing yeah his aesthetic he was like this is what I'm gonna be yeah he's come back into fashion I know I think there was a window 2023 2024 bit of a bit of a fallout of the pandemic where like absolutely do we be nerds like you will pop it up it's passed now sadly and I'm not sure I'll ever come back but you know everyone come back yeah not until year 65 or 65 you're also a bit nerdy though aren't they I've never met a 65 year old as nerdy what do you think as in like by nose they do so they no long that no longer but you mean they're like bird watching they look at this sparrow I think what we mean by nerdy in this context is generally a person knows how like has weird interests and stuff and and yeah and yeah it's not embarrassed to admit you know I like weird things and sure and I think when you're younger there's more pressure on you to pretend that you don't do that and I think when you get older every man eventually just embraces they're in a nerd and then they potter around in the garage and collect stamps and you know fix I don't know water bots or whatever yeah old men do I'm getting into into frames you know painting frames I feel like that's kind of nerdy right that's sort of I guess so I haven't yet watched a YouTube channel about frames I think feel like that's where you are with watches yeah that's true yeah but there's a bit more I would like to imagine that the you know the depth of a watch is a bit more than the depth of a frame hey man come now I'm not I don't want to enter the depth of a frame it's it's only the material that allows us to view art no sure I'm not saying that frames are important but I feel like with a frame like this is much less to go on than there is with not true you can have golden-gilded frames simple words which I know is the one you prefer like a golden-gilded a very decadent you know I just like the inside of my home to look like a museum I bought you know I bought a runner rug the other day oh well it's very made evil does that mean that it's just a rug it's not like it doesn't run no no as in you know when you get those really cool rugs where they have like a brass strip at either end sort of all that would love it yeah can you imagine that like an old fashion Victorian pub no it doesn't have that but it's it just runs all the way down like corridor so it's really it's really long and thin that's quite cool I took me a while to find one that was this precise shape I still haven't been invited to your house you have been invited several times you still haven't you haven't come to my house I invited you to my house very recently and you didn't come for what I invited you at the end of the World Cup for dinner yeah but the dinner was cancelled no it wasn't just the other guest didn't come you could have come anytime do you want to come to my house yeah please when do you want to come I don't know you get back to me yeah I'm off for a week soon so maybe then oh wow but very vague isn't the thing is the way that you've responded to me is the way that people respond when they don't want to go on a date you know I mean yeah yeah I'd love to yeah I'm off for a week soon I think something about the the phases of the moon I'll get back to you oh depend on the phases of my moon watch obviously oh I've got something to tell you by the way yeah by the time merinia was officially appointed on June 11th he and Madrid's senior leaders including Perez general manager Jose Angela Sanchez and chief scout Unica LaFat had already set out a strategy on how to respond I enjoyed the softened G on Angela did you and he didn't go all the way in but you know I never know how to say Unica LaFat or who to Unica LaFat is it unique I don't know where's he from I'm guessing that's got to be like dialect name he says he was born so he's a scout of Real Madrid where was he born it doesn't say where he was born there's very little on his Wikipedia page never mind we'll simply never know I'll carry on shall I the results of their meetings have been playing out over the past few months as Madrid have made their biggest spend in the transfer market since 2019 Madrid have invested around 260 million euros this summer on six new signings and in paying Benfica to release merinio from his contract at the Portuguese club that was 15 million euros by the way former Liverpool centre back Ibrahim a Konate and X Manchester City midfielder Bernardo Silva arrived as free agents while a package worth up to 60 million euros was agreed to bring Mark Cucurea in from Chelsea yes something we've been talking about a lot in the Premier League is Premier League to Premier League signings yes this feels like a lot of Premier League to Real Madrid signings yes and obviously Real Madrid tried to get Roderi as well that would have been four if they'd have got that one through do we think that's interesting in any way you know a lot a lot of the conversations that we we're having about the Premier League and physicality and stuff like that and and obviously merinio coming in and sort of having that maybe that more physical edge as a yes although I would say if we would if we were reading an article about Barcelona's transfer window then we might say the same thing I mean they picked up Marcus Rashford on loan last year Anthony Gordon has come in this year as well this must be a record number of Premier League signings two Real Madrid in one window though probably but also if you look at the specifics I mean Mark Cucurea is a top left-back and he bring him a canate although he you know he's a top sense of fact but he was coming to the end of his country yeah he came to the end of his contract yeah Bernardo Silver isn't is an aging player Roderi who they tried to sign aging player some of these are they're not castoffs but like they're somewhere between good player you know top players and castoffs so I do I do wonder if it's if it's less complicated than Joseph Merinio wants to play more physical style and actually it's just a lot of the best players are in the Premier League I mean I think the most interesting thing about this direction of movement is Erling Holland's 10-year contract that that is the real if the market continues to grow in the way that we expect it to over a long period of time which is to say that over the next 20 30 years Real Madrid and Barcelona maybe lose their like the edge in terms of having that historical pull towards South American players or taught you players all across Europe and just continually money talks in theory if everything continues to go in the same direction it will just go more and more in favor of the Premier League teams and I think we would look back at at the year that Erling Holland signed a 10-year contract because don't forget everybody expected him to move to Real Madrid everyone thought when he came from Bursu Dortmund in Man City he'd be here for a few years and eventually he'll go to Madrid when he's 28 years old that could still happen it'd be very hard for Madrid to prize him away given the length of his contract I think that's the one that maybe you know we'd look back on as the kind of what do they call it the not the bell weather water watershed the watershed the watermark you know the milestone or a milestone in the in a slowly shifting you know Sam's tied away from Real Madrid so this is not a galactico window then it almost feels to me like I don't think these are galacticos but it feels like a soft galactico thing in terms of like they're spending a lot of money to try and catch up with their rivals well let's see I mean let me finish this paragraph because there's more people they bought and then let's discuss whether it's a galactica okay I'll pick up from we just learned about Mark Kukurea okay carrying on right back Denzel Dumfries joined from Inter for 20 million euros striker Carlos S.B. arrived from Levante for 25 million euros and Winger Yendi Amanda signed in a deal that could be worth a club record 140 million euros from Arby Leipzig I mean I guess Yendi Mande is the he's a galactico but also even then it's he's not really no it's not Chris and I know there's a pre galactico he's not Gareth Bail from Spurs I guess what would the galactico signings be now it's like you say it's it's Erling Holland their baby galacticos aren't they yeah Holland is one and Bapet was one yeah but and Bapet was coming forever so I don't know you know he was kind of like a tween galactico yeah I mean the last finishes junior is a galactico I think he is now but he wasn't when they bought him but he neither was a dream but I'm just trying to think in the market like they aren't actually that many there's not and then it's like Michael Alisa galactico and there was talk about yeah yeah Harry Kane now Harry Kane probably before I think that Harry Kane's aged out of galactica yeah he's he's over he's too far gone now and then who else but I don't really have anyone else and then Bruno Fernandez is too old to be a galactico let's say although I think a couple of years ago he's a galactico yeah and I guess if you know if they even if they'd gone for him now that would still feel like a power play move right to be like we can just take man United's best player and just bring him in. - Declan Rice? - Yeah, Galactically. - Yeah, yeah. - Well, again, I can't. - I don't know, I just can't really see that happening on a number of levels, right? - Well, you can't imagine. - I'm actually playing at Real Madrid, I can. - Really? - I mean, if anything, he's like his perfect destination. He wouldn't have to pretend any more that he's a six. He could just be who he is. - Yeah, maybe. - So I know what you're saying. I don't think this is a Galactico window. And I think Real Madrid's transfer policy changed four years ago. They now buy baby Galacticos. And they hope that they grow. - I don't think Galacticos economy exists anymore, right? It's in the sense that like they're going to be rich. - They're going to be rich. - Yeah, right. I think they're so rich now. All of the big teams that in the past, it was just Real Madrid could just get anyone they wanted right now. And it's like, we'll get those players and it will happen. Whereas now it's kind of like. - He's spending 116 million pounds on Morgan Rogers who's not a Galactico. I know Real Madrid didn't do that. I'm just saying, you know, what world are we living in? A confusing one. Shall I carry on? - Carry on. - Madrid have not recently involved their managers closely in the recruitment process. That changed. Former coaches, Carlo Ancelotti, Javier Lonzo and Arbaloa were not consulted as Maurinho has been. Yes, sir. - I feel bad jumping in again. - No, no, no. - I feel like I've done it a lot at the beginning. But there's lots of interesting things here. And this is another thing we've talked about a lot, right? Which is the increasing frequency with which clubs are just saying fine. You can control to their managers. You can control the transfer stuff. So Javier Lonzo, who is mentioned here is not being allowed to do that. Around Madrid is doing that Chelsea. Roberta Deserbie is doing it at Spurs. And you and I, Emory is doing it at Villa. Pep Guardiola, I guess, was doing it at City. - Yeah. - And you know, even now with Moresca going through like someone like Enzo Fernandez being signed by then, just feels like a manager move, right? So again, it feels like so much of this is tied up with that tactical shift that we're talking about where it used to be the case that, I mean, this is broadly speaking, it used to be the case that your manager would sort of have your over the top structural collective idea about what you would do. And if you were really good at that, then you would be one of the better teams. Whereas now it almost feels like that approach has been given up on a little bit. And it's just kind of like, as long as you're competitive and you've got difference maker players, then you'll be okay. And then as a result, you might as well just get the coach to be like, this is the guy who's gonna make a difference in my system, right? - I think elite clubs, the sporting director model, is failing or has failed. I think it works if you're Brentford or you're Brighton and a Bournemouth or a B club. - Any B club, yeah. - And essentially, there's not enough-- - Bristol City. - There's not enough speculation about who you are and your team. There's not, yeah, keep going. There's not enough press, right? No one cares, really, until you get players in then two years later, they move to Chelsea. So the reality is, you might know, but most people don't know the name of the sporting director at Brentford and people don't care. So he's not on the front page of the newspaper, maybe Brentford fans know his name and are interested. But my point is, we just recorded another podcast, the one that came out earlier on on the Thursday evening with Jack Pitbrook and Kaya. And the first part of that show, we were talking about Arsenal and Andrea Bertas' name came up. And that's a new thing in the last sort of five to 10 years that we are talking on a podcast like ours. We're talking with first and second name about the sporting director and deciding whether or not they had a good way to go. - I think we should refer to him as Mr. Bertas. Bertas. - Yeah, out of respect, Mr. Bertas. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - And then the Kale. (laughing) But my point is more, right? Like Andrea Bertas could be relieved of his duty at any time on the basis that he has or hasn't done a good job. In the same way that the Kale could be relieved of his duty if he does or doesn't do a big job. I think there's just too much, the too many people that are interested in what happens at elite clubs for there to be any stable element of the structure. And maybe it worked for a couple of years before everyone started to just pay attention and talk about his performance in the window in the same way that we talk about the manager's performance in the season. - And the gamers become so much about the transfer aspect, right, that these guys are just easy scapegoats. If you have a bad season, why not be like, well, you had a bad window, right? I mean, this is the argument everyone's having about Liverpool right now is just like, since they've had Richard Hughes there, they've just not been as good as they were and they haven't been able to do that. - And when you have to change everything all the time in order to keep winning, what's the point in trying to have some kind of stable structure that stays in? But why would you commit 10 years of your club's lifetime to one person without or one structure without any kind of review? - And if you introduce a review, then you introduce the possibility that things might change. And if you introduce the possibility that things might change, then you take away a big part of what works about the sporting director model or the overarching like football leadership model. - This is another thing we talked on that podcast, right? Because we talked about how it's what's happened is a shift away from value towards risk. It's all about de-risking now because money doesn't feel real for the big clubs. So for your brightens, you're Brent for the New Bournemouths and you're Barceloners. - Barceloners. - Barcelty. Barcelty. - Babylonia. - For those clubs, they have to create value from somewhere and they do that in the market. But for the teams that we're talking about now, they don't create value in the market. They want to create value through their ability to compete. And so they're just going to spend money that doesn't feel real to get the best option. So you're just operating in completely different sort of circuits, right? - Like Ariel? - Yeah, let's do it. - Okay. - That is probably one of the main reasons why there is a shared sense from Madrid's board to Maurinho that this window has been a success and that the squad is now ready to compete for every title. Just a reminder, that is referring to the fact that Maurillos had more of a say in transfers than previous managers. At the same time, there's a feeling among external and internal voices that the team is still short of one profile in particular. A midfielder capable of dictating the tempo of matches. In that regard, Rodriguez preference to join Barcelona has to be considered a blow. Yes, John. - I'm just going to be short here, but what I love about these pieces often is that you get sort of lines that are clearly like being talked about at the club where they'll say something like a midfielder capable of dictating the tempo of matches. And that's just sort of like the club line. But it's not a quote, but what you're saying is that it wouldn't have been structured in that way in the piece if it was one of the terms that were being used. - Yeah, as in Mario will have spoken to lots of different people involved at the club. And I'm sure that the line, we need a midfielder who's capable of dictating tempo. That will be the sort of line that is being talked about. The recruitment staff will be talking about it. The coaching staff will be talking about it there. You know, the agents and everyone involved in that. - That's inside. - Yeah, but it's funny because it's a very sort of loose line, right? What does a midfielder capable of dictating tempo actually mean, right? It's hard to know. And we'll talk about that. Someone's listened to an interview with Andoni Eurel, right? - That's what it means. - But we'll talk about this a little bit later. There's a few of these as well. I think, yeah, in the next couple of paragraphs time, they say they want at least one dominant center back. Which is, when you dig into that a little bit and you're like, well, of course, they want a dominant center back. You want to subdominate the center back to be passive. - Yeah, right, exactly. - But again, it's not even dominant there. It's not even, you're not even saying active or passive, right? You're saying whatever they do, they want them to be good at it. But it's kind of like, well, yeah, of course. But I just find these sorts of little turns of phrases really interesting because it does represent what the club think that they want without really being in depth in any way, right? Because you could, I mean, they'll probably mention Tony Kroes later on because that's what sort of happens. Essentially what they're saying here is, we need someone who did what Tony Kroes did. - We need Tony. - And we don't have that, yeah. - My favorite thing about what just happened is you used the word subdominant. - What you were trying to find at Antonin for dominant. Now here's four that you could have had. Subordinate, that's the closest to subdominant. Submissive, you could have had inferior. Well, I think that's slightly different to, you know, lower-in status, or minor, a minor center back. - That's quite like that. We've got a couple of major centers. Do you know what we need? We need a minor center back. One that can also play it right back. - It's a different mode, isn't it? It's like the minor key versus the major key. - That's right. Okay, I'll pick up, shall I? - Yep. - The athletic takes you through the busiest transfer window at Madrid for quite some time. That's like an advert. And there's a dinkus there as well. So there we go, that's dinkus. Now we're into, that was just the intro. Oh my God, was that the only intro? - We're about halfway through. - We're about halfway through the podcast as well. Okay, here we go. Madrid and Merino began planning the new squad in early May, initially through the manager's agent, Jorge Mendes. - Is this weird? - What's that? Is it George Mendes as well? - I just used my self from the Spanish Portuguese thing in the beginning. I overthought it. - You had a lot of that today. You did it on the other podcast. - No, that's George Mendes. What do you mean is it weird? - That the manager's agent would be planning a club's transfer window. - I mean, it would be weird if it wasn't George Mendes, I think. And I don't think so, because it's more just a sort of contact thing, isn't it? - From what we understand, from reading lots of pieces that have been published by the athletic over the last few years, agents like George Mendes, sometimes do have close relationships with clubs. Clubs sometimes go to agents to say, you know the market better than we do in terms of availability, or the scuttle butt, as they would have said back in the day. The scuttle butt, what's the scuttle butt? - I don't know what that means. - You know what scuttle butt means? Hold on. Let's just get a little definition if I have a scuttle butt. Scuttle butt means rumour, gossip, or idle chatter. - What's the etymology of that? - Well, I'll tell you what I'll tell you. Etymology of scuttle butt. Scuttle butt, rumour or gossip, it comes from a naught. a vertical term for a water barrel on a ship. - Makes sense. - So scuttle is a small opening or hatch cut into a surface or the act of cutting a hole in something, but an old word for a large wooden cast. - It's the second time we've mentioned water baths in this surface, so what do we mention? - I mentioned it before. I didn't know what like fixing water baths like all men do or something, I don't know what all men do. - Oh, my dad's always fiddling around with his butt. - Really? - Yeah. - Actually, he had to water butt that he was fiddling around. - I was worried about his prostate, for example. 1800s, the physical noun appeared on ships around 1801 to 1805 to describe the dex fresh drinking water cast, the scuttle butt. - So presumably the rain is coming in and it's collecting it. - But it's like the water cooler. That's what happens to the scuttle butt. What's the scuttle butt? What's the water cooler? - Yeah, right, right. - There you go. It functions just like water cooler talk in an office building. There you go. - That's so good. - The scuttle butt. - With you, Joe, you just know all these long words and then me with my small vocabulary after just wait for you to explain them all to me. - The words I know all come from - Sh*t in the 80s and 80s and 80s. - Hey, watch the scuttle butt, alright? - Right, I'll pick up, shall I. There was a dinkus, there was a scuffle butt. - We were talking about George Mendes. All of these players, George Mendes, client. - You're asking me questions I simply couldn't answer. - Yeah, I'm not sure that we could even find out in a brief enough time. - We probably could, but it's fine. - Let's find out. - You can find out the agency for a player. - Let's just do one of them, let's do Kukureya. - Okay, Kukureya, agent. - You can do that on transfer marked. - Okay, I'll do on Google, you do it on transfer marks. - Player agent is dupla pk and dominges. - Right. - No, Alex, yeah, Alex pk and Alvaro dominges from the agency dupla. - Dupla, yeah. - Dupla agency. - Which, what's George Mendes' agency? - Yeah, I don't know. - It's called, oh, it's called Guestafute. - Guestafute, yeah. - Okay, so Kukureya isn't? - Ibrahim Okanate is CAA stellar. So I'm guessing they're not. - Let's have a look at Roddry. - I play they didn't sign, of course. - Yandiamander, of course, is rock nation. So not Guestafute. - Seems like Roddry has his own agent. - Right, he's called. - Pablo. - He's called Roddry go. (laughing) And when he speaks on the phone, he sounds a lot like Roddry. He says, yes, I will come to the wedding and I will meet the deco at the wedding. - Don't you think it would be great to have an agent? - I'd love to have an agent. - Just like, I mean, maybe I'm just talking about a personal assistant. - They're not the same thing. - They're different, aren't they? - Agents take 15% of all your money to clean your house. I think that's how it works. I haven't got one. Anyway, should we carry on? - Yeah. - Okay. There was an agreement from the outset on the areas in need of strengthening. In line with the club's view, Maurinho wanted a second choice right back, subject to the budget, to provide stiff competition for Trent Alexander Arnold, at least one dominant center back. There you go, that's what you were at. The dominant center back, a first class left back and a creative midfielder. Each of these positions were quickly ticked off. There we go. Now, I'm just gonna pause myself there. On the first, because you said, the dominant center back, that's come up. First class left back, I assume they mean a starting player. - Yeah. - A creative midfielder, I understand, we'll give that one a buy. - We do. - But I also like, quickly ticked off, because the other interpretation of ticked off is that you're a bit pissed out there. These players will all quickly ticked off by being described as a first class left. - We'll give you a chance, Maurinho. - Okay, I'll pick up. The signings of Canate and Dumfries were officially confirmed on June the 18th and July the 5th, respectively. But both deals have been put into place well before Madrid's presidential election, so Perez voted in again on June the 7th. Dumfries was seen as providing a more defensive fullback option to complement Alexander Arnold's more attacking profile. - I find this weird. I don't know. - Do you find it weird? - I would describe Dumfries as a wingback, basically. - Really? - So why are they saying it's more defensive? - I guess because he's better at defending than Alexander Arnold. But for me, that distinction is a weird one, right? - I mean, the other way of looking at it is what do we give it until October before he's starting? I feel like Trent Alexander Arnold is someone that Maurinho is not going to. - Dumfries was starting in their first two league games. - Really? - Yeah. - So he's already starting? - Yeah. - I just feel like Trent is not a player that will be a Maurinho favorite. - Oh, yeah, but Trent hasn't been starting, but I think he started in the most recent game. So they'll rotate presumably in certain fixtures, but yeah, I think it's funny to describe one as defensive and one as not. Because Dumfries is like a back post-crasher, right? - Yes. - Well, he's under Arnold, yeah, he gets far up the pitch. It's just that he's not as good at defending as Dumfries is, but yeah. - Okay. - Okay, picking up. - I guess that makes him more defensive, but. - Kanate arrived to become one of the mainstays of a central defense that's been hit by injuries to Antonio Rudiga, who extended his contract until 2027 and Edemilitao. Experience was needed to complement Dean Huyson. Huyson, my bad. Experience was needed to complement Dean Huyson, 21 and Raul Asensio, 23. On paper, albeit in different roles, Dumfries and Kanate would fill the gaps left by Danny Carverhal and David Alibur, who left as free agents after not being offered contract extensions. Danny Sabayos left in June too, after agreeing to terminate a contract that was due to run to 2027. Next to fall into place was the signing of Cougarere from Chelsea. Madrid's lightning fast move was the clearest sign of just how serious they were in the transfer window. By beating Barcelona and Atlético Madrid to the punch, they reached an agreement worth 55 million euros, plus five million euros in add-ons for the 28-year-old, despite already having three leftbacks on their books in Alvaro Carreras, Ferlin Mendi and Frank Garcia, who would eventually leave for Real Betis in a switch worth four million euros with Madrid retaining a 50% sell-on clause. Yes, Tom. - It's nice to see that you've incorporated the correct pronunciation of Alvaro. - Yeah, because I learnt that. - You used to say Alvaro, right? - I used to say Alvaro, but then I became a full-length fan, which I've always been, really. And now I know that it's Alvaro. So I'm applying it to Alvaro Carreras, who I'm sure I'm butchering his surname instead. There we go. One thing I wanted to ask here, if we've got time, is Mark Cougarere, he moved to Chelsea from Brighton for 60 million pounds, I recall. What was that two or three seasons ago? And now he's gone to Real Madrid for 60 million euros. So at a little bit of the last, okay, he's 28, so he's a little bit older. But he was a peak player. It was very important for Chelsea last season. Is that like a little bit low, or was it an overpay, do you think? - I presume he was low in his contract. I guess he hadn't signed a second contract with Chelsea. - I guess that's it. Maybe it's just a contract situation. - In which case, not a bad, yeah. - Yeah, I mean, yeah, 55 million euros. If he had a year left on his contract, which, you know, I'm speculating here, the problem he would have had now. - Probably would have had two, I guess. 'Cause he didn't arrive from Brighton more than four years ago. - No, he was three years with Graham Potter, which is just not, I mean, no, it was longer. It's longer, isn't it? - Three years. - We've got two seasons of Morescar, including like the end of last season. And then one of Mauricio Pochettino, and then it's the Potter Lampard random one. - Yeah. - So that's four years ago. So I guess he joined in 2022. So he probably did only have a year left on his contract. - Yeah. - 115 appearances, that's a lot more than I thought. - Yeah, he was only at Brighton for one season. Okay, well there we go. So then not, yeah, not so bad for perhaps a year left on the contract. - Right. - If only there's a way we could find that. - We could have just Googled. - Despite rejecting the option months before, Madrid moved ahead of Barcelona and Etletico again, with the signing of Benado Silva after the 32-year-old left Manchester City. This arrival had an impact on Nicol Paz. - Yes John. - 32-year-old is old, isn't it? - That's old, yeah. I mean, I don't like to say it because I'm older than that, but I would say as far as football is going, at the elite level, it is old. - And they got him on a free date, they? - Yes, he left, he left Man City at the end of his contract. Yeah, so he arrived on a free. Although it is worth saying in these scenarios that when a player leaves club at the end of the contract and then joins on a free transfer, that often doesn't mean that the club doesn't pay any money. It's just that they pay the money to the player. You get these big signing on bonuses. I don't know whether Benado Silva commanded one or not, but one of the reasons that there was an expectation a couple of years ago that players might actually start to wind down their contracts completely and move was because there was the possibility that when Killingham back they moved to Real Madrid, that he might earn an enormous signing on bonus for doing so without a transfer fee required to the club he was leaving. - I guess they do that because then it reduces the wage budget as well slightly, right? - I don't know that if you were to put it entirely in wage budget, then you would ruin the wage structure. - I don't know, because I would have thought by all ways of accounting for the spending that those kind of spends would still be included. - I don't know, just a good question, isn't it? - Well, if only there was a way for us about, we haven't got time, let's move on. - We'll learn this before the next time. - Yeah. - Okay, here we go. The 21-year-old Argentinian midfielder, that's Nico Pantz, by the way, who we're talking about, was expected to return to the Bernabéu via a buyback clause of around nine million euros that was included in his August 2024 sale to Italian club Como. However, a conversation between Paz and Merino left both parties cold. - That's a bad conversation, isn't it? Both parties cold. And the option of Bernardo Silva led to Madrid and Como instead renegotiating the terms of their agreements. Can I pause myself and ask at this stage? This is the kind of detail that seems small fry in the moment when Merineo's at the club and they're signing Bernardo Silva. And then in two or three years time when Niko Paz is doing Amazing somewhere and Bernardo Silva is dead because he was 34 years old. We look back on it and we go Oh, yeah, that's quite a Merineo thing to do isn't it? It's to ignore this player this younger player that perhaps isn't like as Experience or trustworthy, but you know, maybe we would grow into something and instead to sign a 32 year old midfielder who Manchester City Didn't want anymore. It's very short termis right like if we talk about Merineo's Stin that Real Madrid the first time round he arrives in 2010 He wins the league the next season and then has what he describes later on as the worst season of his career to that point the following season Yeah, this is what you get with Merineo. It's like it's a burst to the line to try and get over it Yeah, and it feels like yeah the combination of things here on the one hand bringing in a 30-year-old to win now The paragraph does go on to say that that what Madrid have done is they've extended you read the paragraph a left from cold pick up from and the option to buy Yeah, and the option of Bernardo Silva led to Madrid and Como instead renegotiating the terms of their agreement Madrid said they expect to receive 60 million euros from that with their previous buyback and sell-on clauses removed They now have a new buyback option at 80 million euros. So I've got a note here just saying this This almost feels like they're through future proofing for Merineo and they're sort of saying okay Well in the immediate term he's not going to want him But let's at least give ourselves the option at some point of bringing him back. Yeah. Yeah. Let's please the old bull now But let's keep the young bull which I think is interesting right to have that kind of I mean I guess they would just argue we're just doing smart business here I guess so it does it I guess if they're like we won't have Merineo for the next 10 years Yeah, and he doesn't like this guy and they've been left cold in their conversation would you bother putting that kind of well I guess also another way of thinking about it I was thinking when we were talking about the Merineo short-termism moments ago What's the value in not being short-termist anymore? I mean if we see you know if we just talked about how like Premier League clubs have spent you know multiple hundreds of millions of pounds or 100 million pound players Whatever they've got the money to do it these super league clubs all have the money to do it They can cover up for their own mistakes and more so so actually what's the point in ever doing anything that isn't buying now Unless it was be truly unaffordable unless you're like you know, baby Galaxa goes fine Get Vanissie's junior when he's 20 years old because he's completely not unaffordable He's ungetable at 25 as Arsenal have discovered but beyond that very very top layer Why not just focus on today? I'm guessing thinking of any other examples we have of that and I suppose the prime example is Paul Pogba, right? Yeah, where man United sold him onto Juventus and then bought him back and yeah I guess at the time people were saying are typical man United, but like it feels as though we now live in a realm where that sort of happens quite Regularly normal. Yeah, which is why you have these buyback clauses. Yeah, they did let him go for free And then bought it back for a hundred million pounds Which is not like great business. Well, it was 18. I wasn't 18. I don't know But he's up there in terms of inflation adjusted Point being like yeah, it was this is not the same as the eco-pair thing. Yeah, I'll give him the selling in what was for 60 million They're basically would give co-mode money back plus 20 million euros to have him. Yeah, not so bad. No Okay, carrying on Many other names were linked with Madrid Merino's favorite option was Enzo Fernandez despite club sources denying it. That's funny isn't it feels like no one wants to be associated with Enzo No, no, we don't we don't want him. We don't want him. We didn't really like him Days after the athletic reported that his arrival was unlikely Madrid stated in an official press release that they had no interest in the midfielder who eventually joined Manchester City for a joint British transfer record fee of 125 million pounds on deadline day Another player Merino liked was Matez Fernandez But the club would have never gone close to the 85 million pounds that Tottenham Hotspur paid West Ham United Yes, John that also sounds very much like the club saying they weren't ever interested in Enzo Fernandez, right? Because I'm sure they I mean, they've spent that kind of money before or maybe no player like Matez Fernandez It's like getting turned down by like we would never do that. No, no, no Yeah, well even if you were just like you get you get turned down by someone that you might have a sexual interest And then they go with someone else and then afterwards your friends tease you and you go no come on They were no more than a six. Listen. I would have done it. I would have done it because it was tired that night And you know, I was I would have thrown them a bone, but no, no, no, just a six But I'm sure there's like conversations there whether like are you know these premises spending so much money in this kind of like Well, yeah, I guess of course, okay There was much talk during the 2026 World Cup about Morocco's 18-year-old midfielder Ayub Buwadi He too would join Manchester City signing from Leal in a deal worth up to a hundred million euros Madrid had been monitoring him since before his breakthrough at this summer's tournament But did not yet consider him ready to make that big leap. Yes, John I actually think he probably is ready to make this big leap from what we've seen But on the basis of what we've seen so far from Manchester City Yeah, and you know, I think the LaLiga would have been a perfect Development ground for him in that respect as well, but I again, what cuz it's a lot easier well Yeah, I think that the intensity of the of the game is probably slightly low, which I think I was just being rude I mean, no, I mean it I think I'm gonna treat your question as though a serious and yeah But yeah, I think we've seen enough to suggest that he is gonna he's gonna be there and thereabouts In the Premier League, which makes me think that he'd be fine in LaLiga, but again if marina wants this win now mentality you can't take any risks, right sure you want to bring in those ready-made pieces Yeah, you just instead just don't get a central midfielder I think all right no risk in that After turning down several offers to sign him in previous months Madrid changed their stance on Roderie as he led Spain to win the World Cup Talks were opened with the players camp and they were confident of reaching an agreement with Manchester City as well Until Roderie chose Barcelona Prior to that Madrid felt something wasn't entirely going well and asked people with close ties to Roderie and his entourage to sound out the situation The saga attracted a great deal of attention not only from outside, but also from within People involved in Madrid's day-to-day running as well as others close to the players felt Roderie was the missing piece of the puzzle And we're so keen to find out more that they were even asking journalists what was going on even journalist even journalists Who was we know no nothing yeah Once it became clear the plan was falling through Madrid changed their strategy now a player would have to be sold for another to be signed Yes, I didn't really understand this Neither do I okay neither do I I assume Roderie's transfer fee wouldn't would have been relatively minimal although actually Barcelona paid what six They paid quite a lot of money didn't they yeah, so once it became clear the the plan was falling through the plan for Roderie They changed their strategy. Oh hang on that carries on here. We should have carried on reading should we we probably should That seemed inconsistent Given that Merinio wanted another midfielder and that Madrid had tried to sign Roderie It was also striking because of a consensus that the team needed a player capable of dictating the tempo of the game As we know something that previous coaches Carlo Manchalotti and Javier Lanzo had also asked for Tony Crows Tony Crows can we get Tony Crows but 10 years younger Madrid were open to offers for Eduardo Camarvinger and Rao Lysencio but neither showed any indication of wanting to leave In terms of the attack the athletic reported in June that Merinio was interested in signing a number nine and now we've moved on I didn't read it in a way that we had but let me pick that up again And so and so that everyone will understand from listening to the way that I say it that we've moved on ready Let me have a quick drink. This is watching a voice actor at the highest levels. Okay, applying their trade now What I'm about to do is going to it's going to convict and you'll see when it happens it might initially seems strange Yeah, but you'll see when it happens it will come out great in the edit Yeah, like how I'm just indicating with a little bit of my voice a little Little fluctuation inflection that I've started a new bit now. Okay, in fact a whole new chapter ready In terms of the attack The athletic reported in June that Merinio was interested in signing a number nine in the mold of Barcelona Who had a big impact in the backup role at Madrid during the 2023-24 season A lot of respect for you to carry on reading in that voice I just wanted you to know that I started it. Yeah, I got it. I think the audience will pick up on that. I think they will as well. Yeah It was not a major priority I'm getting I won't do that the whole time It was not a major priority, however, and it was decided this is it this is the same section. Yeah Because I feel like the cues that you gave me in the previous paragraph and now no longer there And I'm a little bit lost to see they're not there hang on let me let's just Let me find a different way of just being able to show you. Okay. Okay. Yeah, ready now. This is gonna be more subtle This is more subtle than last time John. Okay. I'll change from one into the other. So it was not a major priority However, okay, and it was decided that another striker would have to be sold in order to accommodate the request Gonzalo Garcia's 40 million euro departure to full 40 million euros departure I know because the departure is 40 million euro. So it's fine Okay, Gonzalo Garcia's 40 million euro departure to full them now led by former Madrid boss Alvaro Abeloa Unlock the situation paving the way for Sb's arrival signing a right winger was not initially among Madrid's priorities either But as the weeks went by a belief that an improvement was needed gained ground This began to take further shape after the World Cup when the athletic reveal that Madrid had entered the ring for "Ebi" Leipzig's "Diamande". Liverpool first and then PSG had been well-positioned, but the Spanish club ultimately succeeded by agreeing a deal that could be worth up to 140 million euros. Yes, John. I guess this is why it sort of felt like a galactico window for me, because it's like how many times are you saying here, "Oh, this thing happened, and then they decided that this is who they wanted to go for us." I'd Roger had a good world cop, so they sort of went for him, and then it's like, "Oh, Yandiamande, you know, what do they say? Oh, yeah, again, the world cop influenced their views on it a little bit more." So maybe what we're saying then is that there are elements of a galactico window without necessarily the galactico is together with it. Yeah, well, maybe what this is what a galactico window looks like in the modern. But that makes me feel quite negatively about their window, because I don't think they've signed any galacticos, but they've done it in a galactica window. I guess the thing here is that if your recruitment is manager-led, then it's going to end up being way more nimble than it is if it's a recruitment department. It's going to be about a guy that the guy's seen. Yeah, right. Exactly. He's not going to be, "Oh, I was playing football manager and I looked through all of the databases, and I love this guy's going to be like, I can only watch so many football. Yeah, I've watched the world cop. I'm not a team of 50 people. I can't cover all these areas." Yeah. Okay, picking up, some at Madrid regarded Vinicius Jr.'s contract extension until 2032 as another success on par with a major signing. The 26-year-old Brazilian was very tempted to join Arsenal, but protracted negotiations, eventually resulted in the wing of renewing at the Bernabéu. Alongside all these signings, Real Madrid generated significant revenue through player-departures, salon clauses for previous sales, and the Paz re-negotiation with Como. The total stands at around 190 million euros, including that 60 million euros over Paz. Victor Munoz's move to Liverpool falls into that second category. Madrid stands to earn up to 20 million euros from the deal, thanks to a 50% salon clause they included, when selling him to Ossasuna last year. That's the end of the piece. That was by Mario Cortajana. I've questions for you though, John. Yeah, I thought we should talk a little bit about how they've done so far and what we expect it to look like a bit. I would like to do that. I would also, I was looking back over Marino's time at Real Madrid last time when he arrived back in 2010. Famously at the time, he was considered the antidote to Guardiola, right? It was early on in Guardiola's managerial tenure, so it wasn't as though the football that he was playing with that Barcelona side had changed the world in the way that it has done now, the football world. But my question is, if he was the antidote then, and he did manage to win a league during that time, and now 15 years later, we've sort of seen the real antidote, which is a bit of tactical diversity, some chaos, a bit of man-to-man pressing, not saying that Marino did any of that, but one simplified way of looking at it is that what a lot of teams are doing is low-block encounter football, and Joseph Marino did really good job of low-block encounter football. In fact, there was a game in 2010, it was in that bad season. I know it was the one before actually, in 2012, away at Barcelona, it was the first Barcelona game that their players, when Joseph Marino was the manager. They actually, you'd end up losing 5-0, and Marino caused it the worst game of my career. But the plan was to low-block encounter against what Guardiola was doing, which is kind of what teams are doing now, and one thing to add in that season, the next one that you mentioned was Marino's the one he said was his worst ever. There's a great quote from Real Betis' coach, Pepe Mel. I was going to say the worst season so far. Do you remember this quote? So this came from a 1-0 loss to Real Betis against Real Madrid. It was in the middle of a terrible season. They were losing a lot of games, and Pepe Mel said, "We tried to make sure that Madrid had the ball because that way they harmed themselves." And that, again, like, that feels a lot like what's happening now. So if he was the antidote then, can he not be the antidote now? Like, why does it not work now? Well, I mean, the Pepe 15 years too early? You can make the argument that the tactical landscape has sort of evolves back around to what he's doing. And, you know, I keep banging on about this, I'll tell you a quote from, I can't remember which Spanish outlet it was, but it was from January earlier this year, where he says the game now sort of largely teams cancel each other out in terms of the system stuff. And so the differentiating factor now is the players who can have those game-defining moments as he describes them. Which sounds like a very merineo thing. Yeah. And, you know, I don't think that's ever gone away, right? I think, and I think that's why Merineo at Real Madrid is going to be so interesting. I think Merineo at any other club, you could probably make the argument, okay, he'll probably, you know, it'll be like what Merineo at Roma, and there'll be some periods of okay success, probably the overall picture will be, I probably should have done better. Yeah. When you put them into a club like Real Madrid where, yes, you're playing low-block and counter-largely. When you have, like, Killian and Bappe and Vinicius Jr. in that kind of environment, which as we saw, you know, largely under Carlo Ancelotti, which isn't say that Carlo Ancelotti was playing low-block and counter-football, but he was playing, I would say, from a collective point of view, sort of relatively, he would give the team a very basic out of possession shape to work on, and they're not controlling the game without the ball. They have obviously these ideas of how to get the players associated together when they were going forward, and they were, you know, they weren't just about on the right side of the balance to be able to win stuff in that way, and I think, you know, it came into their own in knockout tournaments, like the Champions League, which is why, you know, they were very successful in the Champions League. Actually, weren't that successful in the league with Ancelotti. I think the same sort of thing probably happens a bit with Merineo that, you know, you're talking about a team that they're just outlier, talented. And I think the really interesting conversation is going to be, what happens now, the Barcelona have got Hansi Flick, who's sort of doing the, actually, we're doing systems stuff to try and get the most out of the players are disposal, and I suppose in theory, that's because, you know, they haven't been able to just spend the money that they might want to because of their ongoing financial difficulties, versus Arral Madrid, where it's like we still have the ability to spend this amount of money, and it doesn't really hurt us. How does that iron out? Where does that plateau out at? So, yeah, I think it comes with the antidote. Yeah, but I also think that it's, you know, there's an argument to be made that if the game has become a lot more open, and it does come down to, you know, individuals making the differentiating fact, that suits a team like Real Madrid, and a lot of the conversations we've been having over the last five years on this have been, oh, can Real Madrid ever sort of embrace modern football? And it feels almost as though everyone else has sort of done the embracing of modern football for them, and they've collapsed the game back down into relative chaos as well. So yeah, it dukes trousers will always come back into fashion. That's what we're saying. Yeah. Okay, should we finish there? I think we should end on dukes trousers, yeah. Thanks, John. Thank you. And thanks to producer Paul. Thanks, Paul.