Riley Witt | 800m Training, Bicarb, and Banter

Hello and welcome to the Endurance Odd Podcast. My name is Dr. Bill Evans, Professor of Exercise Science, and this podcast covers the physiology of some of the best athletes on the planet as well as talking with their coaches and sports scientists. And today I have some exciting news, which is that we will be dropping podcasts more regularly because Mr. Riley Whitt, who will be joining me on today's podcast, is going to be joining on a somewhat semi-regular basis. No other podcast is not sponsored by Bike Harb Shop, though I will ask Riley eventually if he makes enough money for some revenue, some profit share. Not really. That's a joke, Riley. But I think that this will be really exciting because every episode we have on with Riley, we get a ton of views, which is someone annoying because I like to think that we're sufficient with what we have, but I guess people think Riley's crazy. In fact, Pete Julian reached out and was like, "Every podcast you have with this Riley fellow is pretty interesting." And I'm like, "Yeah, he's got a lot of special interests." He's unhinged too. And you guys can't see it right now, but Riley is currently pipetting his blood into an iced-at-one blood-gas analyzer, which we talked about on the last podcast. And so I've been encouraging Riley for the past few weeks to finally get to testing his Bike Harb Lotion because he tested it on mitochondrial capacity, Parker Wolf tested it, and he had some interesting results. And so finally, I was like, "You know what, Riley, you got to take this time today. We're going to podcast." He was like, "Well, I don't have time." So I said, "You know what, dude, you're just going to do it right now. You're going to do it during the podcast, and we're going to see what happens." So in real time, you guys are going to hear whether or not the Bike Harb Lotion actually works. Riley, did I miss anything? No, I think part of me is like a little procrastinating it because I'm nervous. We have to adopt it. And we've seen it work. But doing it myself is another level of like, if I mess it up, and I mess it up the wrong way, it shows that the product is not working. But we're going to see, real time, this podcast is going to launch regardless of the data. So we're about to see it, yes. So I'm excited. Truth matters. Truth matters. And I think too, we'll talk a little bit about how we're testing it with Riley today. And then I'll talk about a protocol that I'm going to be doing specifically on the product. We just submitted our IRB here at Elon, and I'm hoping to get it launched so that we can actually test the product. He sent me a box of gobbledy cook, let me go get it, hold on. First cartridge is in by the wall while he's grabbing that baseline cartridge. We already did, I did one baseline about 15 minutes ago before the podcast started and then I wanted another baseline just so we've got tool and I can have some more practice. But for those of you listening online, I have Riley's bike revolution. He sent me a placebo. He sent me the microdermal roller, which is supposed to increase transdermal absorption by increase in the pore size, basically your poking holes in the tissue. That's one of the main emitters for the rate of diffusion. And so the idea would be that if we increase the or decrease the barrier integrity by poking little holes and then we add some other stuff, we should be able to increase absorption. But I have the control box right here, fancy boxing, by the way, Riley, it reminds me of like an Apple product. I can't believe you put like a magnet in this. Only the best. How many magnets were killed in the making of this product? I think there's only two in a box, two magnets. Maybe we should say get reused. I'm going to start collecting them. Hopefully my kids won't eat them. That's one of my greatest fears. So anyway, so what are we doing with the experiment? Well, Riley is going to test his blood in a blood gas analyzer known as an I-STAT-1. And he's going to be taking finger pricks every 10, 15 minutes. Is that right, Riley? Yeah, I think I'm going to do every 15. But if you tell me you want more precise data, I'll do every 10. Every card with a heck of 30 bucks. I'm so frugal that I don't want to like wait. Every cartridge is $30. And I wasted three before we got any data because I'm an idiot and didn't manage it. Well, you live and you learn, that's called the cost of doing business. So Riley is going to be testing one right now. Let's go with every 15 minutes. I'm curious to see the time course of this. But this analyzer gives us a lot of data, it gives us blood sodium, blood potassium, which we'll talk about why the potassium is not particularly accurate in this scenario. It's going to give us the partial pressure of carbon dioxide, the partial pressure of oxygen. I think I already said blood pH, blood by carbonate, blood glucose, blood lactate. It gives us essentially, okay, yeah, hematic or hemoglobin. So it's going to give us a ton of data. Now, the thing to note is that Riley is going to be getting this from a finger prick. And when you do this, you have to basically milk the finger to get blood into a tube and then you pipe that tube into the analyzer. Well, when you do that, you damage some of the red blood cells. Well, functionally, this is called hemolysis. And so it's going to change some of the red blood cell metrics, some of the potassium metrics. But the ones that we're particularly interested in should be fine and also I'm telling Riley to not get too crazy with beating the snot out of his finger. But Riley, how long does it take to get results from this? Three minutes, I just got the first results. All right. What was the blood pH? Blood pH was calculating 7.436. Okay. The partial pressure of CO2 was 31.9. I did take photos of this. So I don't know if we can wait a minute, though. No, I'm writing it down because we're going to make a graph of this when this is all said and done. So blood pH was what? Blood pH was 7.436. Okay. Partial pressure of CO2 is 31.9. Okay. Partial pressure of O2 was 106. I don't know what EEF is. It says millimolar per liter. That's negative three. That's beef. No. Come on. HCO3 is 21.5, which is inaccurate. Like we just said, do you want me to tell you them even though they're not accurate? Don't tell me they're inaccurate ones. Okay. That's definitely not. Right. SPO2 is 98. NA? What is it? NA sodium? Yeah. Not available. 127. All right. Let's just focus with those. I don't think there's any other ones we're going to need. We might come back to some of the bike perfect, but the big one to pay attention to is the pH, right? We're seeing 7.43. And we can actually back calculate from pH to get a measure of the hydrogen levels. And one thing to know about pH is it is the negative log, log base 10 of your hydrogen concentrations. So when you're seeing 7, what that means is it's 10, some value times 10 to the negative 7. And that tells you that that's the concentration of your hydrogen ion. So I know that sounds like not a lot, but that's how we think about blood pH. And keep in mind that a higher pH is basic and a lower pH is acidic. When we add the blood by carbonate or sorry, when we add the lotion to the body, we should see the blood pH go up and become more basic. Riley did I miss anything? I think you nailed it. Yeah. Big by car. Whoa. Stop it by car. Exactly. For those of you that don't know, there's a group chat between Dom Schleuter. Don't ask me how to say his last name. Riley Whit and myself. And it's entitled the by car bros. I don't like to think about us as the little three of this running influencers maybe. I don't know. Running content creators. Running? I don't know. Wow. Dominic, I guess maybe now. I don't know. What? Dom's a business king. Gwamer trying to start beef all over the internet. We love it. Shout out. He's on a speed run to absolutely obliterating his reputation. So shout out. The thing is that he's not going to listen to this podcast. So he'll never know. But shout out, Dom. We love you, dude. We love the running effect. He's very insightful, very mature for his age. I always feel so old. I'm 33 and I'm dealing with two 20-some-year-olds that, you know, I feel like I have to teach them how to do their taxes and insurance. Fun fact, they teach me more about that stuff than I learn. So to what we want to talk about today, other than Riley's gobbledy-gook that he's going to be applying to his body and then measuring the blood pH every 15 minutes with. I want to talk about actually how to program for the 800. So two podcasts ago, I talked about my training philosophy and I kind of talked very broadly about these different systems or features that I think about when I'm programming. In quick summary, it was kind of the metabolic fatigue, the structural elements, and then running economy. And there's some other things in there too. But that was kind of the three pieces that I broke it into and I said that because these drive fatigue, these are the systems that we want to target. It talked about something called vertical integration and then the fitness fatigue model, which undergird to use the proper term, the basis of why I think about training the way that I do. I also think about the training and detraining rates and kind of trying to implement those when I'm modeling out a good program. And so today we're going to talk about Riley Witt's programming because in addition to being a mad scientist, he's quite a good runner. Riley, what's your 800 mile PR again? 145, I don't say the decibel because it's high decibel. So I just say 145 and then 359 point or I think or no, 359.0. Riley is currently applying the lotion. Make sure you shake that stuff up. Did you use the dermal roller? Yes I did. Good. And if you can't see in the background, he has his alter G sitting back there. We'll talk about why he has that as well. And so we're going to use Riley, some of Riley's programming from when he was in college to frame out some example programs for an 800 or a middle distance runner. Now, keep in mind that Riley is also pretty gifted in longer distances, though I would argue he is far better at the shorter distances. Riley, what is your 8K PR? 24, 24 for my junior year. my senior year I had a stress fracture that you probably arc you wasn't a stress fracture in my telcanoma. So senior year I did not get to run, to give you an idea, my junior year was 24, 24, and then my mile PR for that year was 402. - Nice, man, how exciting it had to be to break for. Can't imagine what that's like. I'm sure it hurt. - Actually not too bad. - Really? - It was so exciting and it was such a relief, but I also think your brain does a weird thing after something really exciting that you literally forget about the pain. So like, I'm telling you now that it was super comfortable but it was probably horrible in the time. It just, I don't feel like it was bad now. - Yeah, 'cause you PR, do you think you could do it again? - Right now, no chance, but yeah, I think my body could definitely do it again. - Yeah, it's exciting. So the way we're gonna frame this out is, and Riley and I talked about this for a good bit about how to think about this, is to break down his training, what he did. Roughly, let's say 12 to eight weeks before his race. And this isn't perfect. We don't have his training logs per se. I'm assuming Riley has a steel trap and can remember a lot of this, but, well, we're gonna break down his training from a high level. So what did his Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday look like? And then we're going to think about, what are some things that we might change? What are some things we would keep the same? And then we're gonna get creative. Here he goes, he's putting lotion all over himself. You should be wearing a big stopping broccoli shirt while you're doing this, but-- - I should but all this-- - Just stay back, not like this shirt. - That's fair. We're gonna talk about some creative things that we would maybe consider if we were doing this and we had, and in Riley's case, we do. Unlimited time and unlimited, necessarily resources, but access to some resources. So you can see Riley has an alter G. He's got infinite bicarb, he's got infinite NRF2, he's got access to some nitrates and fuel, because he's considering exploring some opportunities in the fueling space, which we've heard a lot of athletes saying that they love the big M because the fueling opportunity is less than the bicarb, which I found compelling. And so we're gonna talk also about, you know, altitude training, blood flow restriction, and then using the alter G for over speed training and how we might implement those into the training. - There's always things, man. - I think, I think an interesting piece that you also find very interesting that's super novel and new, not super novel, but I think it's novel in our sport is blood flow restriction. And I think there are some ways there that are low lift, low risk ways that you can boost performance without really risking too much load or overtraining syndrome or something, more of like a lactate tolerance, even capillary density type work, but you could probably touch on more of that than I can, but I think that's an interesting avenue as well, but yeah, and then the hypoxic and hypoxic training. - Oh, that's right. EWAT therapy is really interesting, but in EWAT word, it's contrast. I think that's also fascinating for like red blood cell and hip-1 alpha activation. - Right, right. So we talked about that on the last podcast. So maybe we'll talk a little bit about how to implement that. Riley's gonna turn off his notifications for his computer or phone. He is more of an old man than I am when it comes to technology, which is funny, 'cause he's 22 or three or whatever he is. He's but a wee babe. Just a young blue guy. Riley, how old are you? - 22. - 22, I'm curious to see how this podcast is received. People are gonna be like, "This is far too much banter." I'm gonna be like, "Yeah, whatever." So, all right, Riley, let's start with this. What are you gonna do, run me through a week in the life in college, 12 to eight weeks before your, let's say your indoor mile, 'cause I think you're in your PR and indoor in the mile. So let's say that would take us, maybe we'll do eight weeks before March. So maybe think about the time we're in now or about a month or two from now, that November, December range. I think that's probably a decent time. So what would you be doing, would you be doing training wise, Monday through Sunday? - So I had an interesting buildup. Most of the time, people come off of a cross country season and they're really aerobic. So that's not the weakness that they have to manage. You have all summer to build mileage, then you have all fall to do more specific work, specific aerobic work. And that leads you at a really good position coming into the track season. I unfortunately didn't have the cross country season so I did take some time off and I was biking a lot. I was doing some longer bike rides, probably not the most ideal, but it's really difficult to get the same adaptations with cross training. So I'll flush out out the window, we don't need to double click on that. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna triple click on it quickly to just say this. This is all anecdotal. Back in 2019, I had a foot thing going on, thought I had a stress fracture, was getting back into running. And so I did every single easy run on the elliptical and I did my tempo and threshold workouts on the elliptical. I did exactly two days of running per week. I should clarify two workouts of running per week and then I would do just a little bit of running off of the elliptical. And the reason or the theory I had at the time, seven years ago, was that if I could just introduce a minimal dose of running, then I would maintain some of the motor learning and the elastic properties that you gain from running. And my theory was that when you think about biology or adaptation, it generally follows an 80/20 curve. So kind of an asymptote, so it's linear, it's linear, it's linear and then it starts to level off and the slope gets flatter and flatter until you're not actually getting the same return on your investment. So my theory was, if I could just do most of my aerobic work on the elliptical, I'm still in the upright position, I'm still full body weight bearing unlike the bike where you're unloaded, you're sitting on something. And then I'm going through mostly a similar rhythmic pattern of muscle contraction because of the way that the elliptical works. Like it just looks more like running. Yes, there is some differences in the activation, but the synchrony to me seemed a lot more similar to running than something like cycling. And so then I would combine that with, I would actually get on the track and run and then just a little bit of easy running. And I was able to run my PR that year, which I think was, yeah, I think at that time, I don't know, this was pre-trackflation, I think I had around like 159 maybe, maybe too flat, I don't remember. - Everyone uses pre-trackflation to justify that they cut a stung. - Hey, I'm okay with that dude. I was coming back off in eight year hiatus as an old man and I did stink it. I did, I stung relative to these Olympians, I'm good compared to most people and I'm okay with that. - I can say that because we're friends, it's okay. - I can handle it. Also Riley never, Riley was not good during pre-trackflation, so it doesn't matter. What was your PR in 2018 for eight years old? - 2018, I would say eighth grade. So, or 59. - I was far better than you. - Maybe that means I'm gonna pop off. - So, okay, so you were coming off using the elliptical. So that meant that you had a prioritize aerobic work. What is your aerobic work looked like and what days were you doing it during the week? - Yeah, so we were the early adopters of using an alter G, we use a lever system to do threshold work at a little bit faster. So traditionally, I think if I would have done a step test at that point, my threshold probably would have been around five, 25, five, 20 or something, so not very good because I took some time off. Quickly rebounded, but we were doing K repeats and my repeats on a treadmill with a lever. - At what pace? - Like five flat till four, 50, probably. - Okay, so for context, a lever unloads the body. It decreases the amount of forces, but what's nice about it is it maintains the neuromuscular features. So when the muscles are firing and the order in which they fire. So intensity is not necessarily there of firing compared to full body weight running, but the timing of it is more similar to running at five flat than running at five, 20. - Yes. - Okay, so that's good. - That's good. - I'd bring a scale in my back back in the lever. I'd step on the scale, I'd put the lever on, I'd take about 15 to 20% body weight off, then I would start running and I'd test lactate, and so I'd be able to get like 20 seconds per mile faster, which probably would have been what it was if I didn't have to take the time off. So I was kind of using, that was my metric. It wasn't super calculated, it will be more so this time, so much with the lever, and then had one double tee a week, and then one other just single threshold workout, and then we had one specific track workout a week. And then once I got healthy again, we started implementing speed. And I think we could touch on this 'cause it's a huge area for everyone, not only 800 meter runners, not only mylers, but I think even 5K guys could really, really benefit some running economy benefits that come from speed, and just like neuromuscular patterning. So a specific speed session early in the week when you're not fatigued was a huge unlock for me, because I was really slow. - Joe, how slow were you? Did you ever get your 10 meter fly or anything? - We did ever, we never did time test. We always did it against people. Still like, I always go against Maxime, who was a 148 guy, a sub four minute myler. He's drawing me, he was from France, and then Charlie Kinzlo, probably like a 420 myler, but a 150, 800 meter guy, 151, and he would destroy me. So like, I had a 5K guy who almost took me to the line one time. Like, really slow. So that's a big unlock, and I think it's a big unlock for most people, even if you're decent at it, you can get way better because we never touch it. - Riley, when you say that it's a big unlock, you make me think of someone who works for Amway and they're trying to, they're giving their, do you want to quit your job and start working for yourself? Let me give you this massive unlock. Anyways, we can pick on each other, we're dear friends. So when you said you're doing this speedwork, how far are we running? Like what were their reps? - Yeah, so the speedwork was roughly four to six reps of anywhere from 30 to 50. We occasionally did 60s, but I think that's a little bit too far. - Okay. - And it was full rest like three minutes. You'd probably argue we needed more, we were antsy. I probably didn't take it enough. But and then afterwards we would do some 800 meter work. So we would start with like a long, warm up, just for some mileage, like three or four miles and then we'd do the sprint work and then we would do some pace 800 meter work. - How much, how much 800 pace and what was the work to rest ratio? - About one to one, work to rest ratio. We were on a 300 meter indoor track. So we would do like a 120, then a 150. And it would kind of change. Sometimes there's 150, 100, 100 or something like that. And it was all around like 50, one to 52 second pace for the 400. And then wherever we stopped, we just jogged back to the start. So about one work to rest. - It was slow. - So you were running 13 seconds, 12, 5 per 100. - Yeah. - It's pretty good. - It was like spider good stuff. - Yeah, yeah, still. - That's good. And I like that because it gets you used to running in spikes and I think a lot of people neglect that. Like I haven't done it yet. I did the first of my double threshold today and then I'm gonna do some, I meant to do some sprint work but ran out of time. So I might do that after my second session, even though that's probably ill advised. But we'll see. I'm banking on adaptation outweighing the fatigue from the threshold. - So let's quickly talk about are you doing your next measure? - I am. - Nice. - So very quickly, I think the thing to keep in mind is that this looks a lot like Justin Renaldi's programming. Right, where you're doing this speed Monday, you're building your ability to produce force, the elasticity of the tissue, you're increasing your neuromuscular economy or efficiency or I don't really know what word you wanna use. But basically your ability to produce force really, really fast and to tolerate those forces. And this way you're increasing your ceiling. So when we think about the 800, we talk about sprint speed reserve, which is essentially what percent of your sprint speed you're running your 800 at. And then also your maximal aerobic speed, which is gonna be basically your mile pace. And then what is your, there's one more metric that I'm forgetting. But it's essentially if we take your max speed and divide it by your aerobic speed or aerobic speed divided by your max speed, it gives us an index of like whether or not your, is it sprint reserve or something like that, I can't remember. But whether, which type of 800 meter runner you are. So this type of programming is really helping the top end. And I really like this. In fact, I like that Ronaldo does this all year round. I am curious, Riley. Did you feel like that beat you up for your threshold work on Tuesday? Yes, early on, early on 100%. I'd be sore the next day and you're like, why am I sore? This is ridiculous. I haven't done anything. But after like three weeks, it literally only took like three sessions. Not a problem. The next day I was completely fine. Actually, my CNS, like measured by HRV and my whoop. After those three weeks was better. Like it was better the day afterwards. I did those friend stuff. It was like an activation almost. Interesting. So your HRV went up. That's interesting. That's interesting. Well, I'm on week two of my sprint work. And so I guess I'm going to find out if I feel any better. I'm just going to keep these old Achilles intact. I'm sure. Do you get sore the next day? So it's interesting, like I did them. Actually, I'm on week three. Weeks, maybe week four, actually. 'Cause yeah, maybe week four. No, I don't, my hip hurts. Like I have a torn labrum. And so both my labrums and my hips are torn. So sometimes the very large knee flexion will cause a little bit of, or the hip flexion will cause some irritation in my hip. But, you know, I always tell people, sometimes you just got to work around it. And yeah, I'm good today. So we'll see what happens later. The Achilles has felt good, which is encouraging. And I'm being very careful about the volume of sprinting that I'm doing, especially in spikes. Because the intensity, I think, will drive up the tissue structure more than the volume right now. I guess that's my theory. Is again, if I can increase the peak forces, then in theory, it should be easier to increase the submaximal, the amount of submax forces. But I guess we'll see. So Tuesdays was threshold work. How many minutes of threshold would you do between your Tuesday and your Friday or Saturday session or whatever it was? For a week, it was probably a little shy at two hours a week. Okay, that's pretty good. Holy cow, that's a lot, maybe an hour 40. That's still a lot, and that's impressive. And then you said you had a speed development day in there as well. On Thursdays, and this is how we kind of sometimes, every other week, we'd sneak in some threshold work of forehand, so that's an easy way to get a little bit more, is like an extended warmup where we might warm up two miles, but then we get another mile of threshold work or mile and a half of threshold work of forehand to get a little bit more warmed up and maybe slightly fatigued for the actually 800 meter specific work. And then we would, so what type of 800 meter work were you doing that time of the year? Were you doing Hill Sprints? This is early in the year. Yeah, unfortunately, I think Hill Sprints are great, but we never did them because it was cold, and it just wasn't worth it for running outside in that cold. Well, yeah, no, we did not. Brisk pulling something. How many meters of 800 work were you doing on those Thursdays, roughly? Between 1600 and 2K, or what? Yeah, 1600 to 2K. Early on, we probably pushed it closer to 2K. What, give me an example workout. 200, 400, 200, three sets of that, so that's 4, 8, 12. That's sad. I don't know. Oh, you're doing 200, 400, 200. It would be a 20, 800 meters. 53, 26, you were just casually running 53s. Yeah, I actually just had a memory. It was, is a year ago today, it was 26, 54, 26, 26, 53, 27. Oh, 26, 53, 25. How bad did that hurt? Again, it was like a good workout. So I'm afterwards, and I'm like, that's awesome, but I do remember laying on the ground afterwards when that legs up, and I coach us, like, you should go get a cold down in. I was like, it's not happening. So I did not cool down in that. Again, it was a hard workout. I did not. It was rough. Do you remember what the rest was? It was one to one, so what? No, it couldn't have been. You were taking 30 seconds rest and a minute rest between the 200 and 400? I have the memory. I can literally pull it up. Well, you're doing that. Let's talk about why this is so taxing. So when you're running at 800 pace, you're tapping into both your glycolytic and your aerobic system. The glycolytic system lasts, and I've set this on so many pods. Between a minute, 30 and two minutes, when you're running at 800 pace, you are very much tapping into that system. And so this is going to be very taxing. It's going to produce a lot of hydrogen, a lot of fatigue, but you're not going to feel good. But it's nice because you're building multiple things at once. You're building your running economy, you're learning how to run 800 pace, you're building your fatigue tolerance. So how bad it hurts whenever you have this increase in hydrogen ions, and then you're also building your, what I would call, just kind of the metabolic system in general. So like glycolytic flux, so your ability to produce that amount of force for that duration and those power, I call it a power profile, I guess, like those power outputs for those durations. So you're kind of, you're hitting all three, both structural, metabolic, and running economy. So very, very effective stimulus. Riley, did you find the rest or you focused on pipetting your blood? I'm stressed to do some multitask, but I think it was 60 seconds in between the two and four, 75 seconds between the four and two, and then six minutes set rest, and then the next time we did it, it was 75 seconds between the two and four, 90 seconds between the four and two. So a sending rest. But did you do two sets of that or three sets of that? So you basically did three dirty 800s, and a dirty 800 to me is a broken 800 basically. That is a brutal workout. Yes, we didn't do that very often. Yeah, because it would crush you. Yeah. That's impressive. I did that with someone. You know what's interesting is, some people say that the 800 is up to 60% aerobic. I think that the faster you are, and then this is something that I've said before that people maybe don't understand, but if you're really, really fast at the 800, then it has a smaller aerobic percentage, while a slow rate 100 runner has a much larger one. So some people might say it's just time, because my time is a minute 45, and a good high schooler is like two minutes or something. Like, well, let's go with an average high schooler that's running 230, or who's new, you know? Right. You know, they might have, it's gonna be much, much higher, whereas like if you're 145, it's probably about 35% to 40% anaerobic, which is going to be, and then by the way, this is based on a paper, I'm not just making this up. So the paper is Spencer in Gaston, published in 2001. They took 20 highly trained Australian athletes who ran the 200, 400, 800, or 1500, and then they measured their VO2 peak, which was interestingly, I mean, I don't wanna say it was low, But the 200 runners was 56, the 400 runner was 59. 400 runners. The 800 runners were 67 and the 1500 runners were 72. And then they looked at the relative contribution of aerobic energy systems using the accumulated oxygen deficit method, which basically looks at I think it uses excess or exercise post oxygen consumption to do so. And basically in doing this, or maybe they had them, I'd have to read the paper, but basically they can estimate the percentage of the aerobic system being used. And that's kind of how they came up with these percentages, which were that the 800 was 66% and the 1500 was 84%. And so this is why I often say that the 1500 peat willingness of this as well is a is an aerobic event. It's certainly an aerobic event, which is why when you think about Donovan Brasier, the thing that people don't realize about Donovan Brasier, he is incredibly talented. I think he ran 23 something in the 8K. Do you know if that's right, Rally? I don't, but that's the same. Yeah, makes sense. So I'm reading the methods, by the way, of how they did this. And it says the AOD was defined as the difference between the estimated O2 cost of the super maximal treadmill run and the actual oxygen cost. Okay, that makes sense. So basically you can estimate the oxygen cost based on a total workload, and then you can measure the oxygen cost to see at any given pace, what were they actually consuming. And then you can basically divide the two and say, well, if their VO2 hit this and the oxygen in the total workload cost is this, then we can make an estimate about what the percent of one of the other is. Rally, did you get your data? It's taking it's probably got 40 seconds left. I can't wait. I'm on the edge of my seat. So anyway, so that makes sense. So we got two aerobic sessions, an hour 40. We've got one 800 session, very intense. We've got a speed dedicated session on Monday. And you guys essentially recycled this up through what January, February, this structure. We recycled it entire like all indoor outdoor slightly shifted, but pretty much all throughout February. Okay, so I think this is crazy intense. And what I would say is if you're a master's athlete, you're not going to be able to tolerate this, this frequency of intense sessions, because you're going to get hurt or you're going to be over trained. So just as an aside, if you're over the age of 26, I would probably decrease the frequency of these intense sessions, because, and this is the benefit of being young, but if you don't, you're going to get hurt. And I think Riley could attest to this. He trained super hard, but Riley, how often were you injured? Enough. Now, some of that had to do with the fact that he was living inside of an altitude 10, which brings us to our second point here. I think that I will work out every two weeks. That wasn't a weekly thing. We would shift that Thursdays wouldn't always be that hard occasionally. Okay, days would not be right. Right. Did you do a long run? No, I never did. So in cross country, we did a long run every other week and then double threshold the other every other week. But in track, I never did a long. So I made a post about the long run and what it does and it basically increases your durability, which means it decreases the increase, it decreases the increase, it blunts the increase in oxygen consumption as you run for a very, very long time. And in the 800, you're only running for 100 to 120 seconds. So it's not really, there's no real point in trying to increase your durability and erase like that. It's not going to make a difference, which is why Hobbs Kessler is like, I don't do long runs and I don't need them. And I'm like Hobbs, I agree, man, if you run the 5K, I'd say maybe do them, but in the mile and 800, I don't think you need them. I don't, I think the only benefit is that they might increase the amount of work that you can do on the threshold days. But I don't know, what do you think? I think so. It takes so long for us shorter distance guys, lower volume. I was running 60 miles a week, 55 really? That's low volume. Probably 35. I was averaging in the track season in the cross country season. It was 6570, but it takes too long to recover that it's not worth it. It's a great stimulus, but you can get better stimulus is that don't take us on to recover stimuli. I'm going to correct you. You said decibels earlier, decimals, decibels as you just sound. Again, home education. These listeners are going to hate us after this. I don't care. Maybe they'll like us. I don't know. I hear a lot of people and they reach out they're like, I feel like I know you because a listen to the podcast. And I'm like, thank you. That's the intent. I have a sense of humor. I'm not always as concrete as I see, which is why I'm going to enjoy having Riley on because I can be. I can be myself a lot more than when I'm just like by myself or interviewing somebody. Alright, Riley, so let's get crazy. Alright, so if you were going to introduce some alterations here, how would you do it and what would you do? You go first and then I'll do mine and what day would you do it or would you incorporate it on like a specific session? Alterations, I would do hillsprints if I could. I think we can also get some more speed adaptations. We can get better VO2 adaptations with not as high injury risk. Because of the way the concentric or I guess eccentric forces are shifted, running uphill, you can push yourself really, really hard without as much mechanical stress. So I can go 100% up a hill and only hit four minutes in 30 second pace or four to 20 second pace or something depending on the grade they'll. But if I go all out on a track for 30 seconds, I'm running fast way too, that's hurting my, you know, you're not both like fast. So I think early on, I would shift a lot of those 800 meter specific workouts and this is just going to sound like a Ronaldo Glaze show because we're just. But that's what I would do is I would on the Thursday's early season, I would shift to there. Now in the late season, I think he doesn't, I don't want to trash him. He knows a lot more than I do, but I think he probably should do a little bit more 800 meter specific work depending on my racing too. I think he, I think he does. I think it depends on who it is. But you know, I think that's where that's the secret sauce of coaching, right? You know, we often say there's no secret workouts, but there are certainly secret progressions. And I think that's what people don't realize is that the way that you write workouts, the order that you do them and how you structure things are far more important than the actual workout themselves. Like the progression side of things is way more important. So, so one of the things that I thought about and I agree completely with the whole sprints and you mentioned this, but the eccentric forces in sprinting uphill are going to be lower. It's going to be more concentrically dominant motion because you're not in the air as long. So your foot's not hitting the ground with as much velocity because you don't have as much time to accelerate into the ground. Your ground to contact times are much longer, which means you have more time to apply force through the ground. And so yeah, you just don't have those very, very high eccentric forces. And so it's going to be a more concentrically mediated exercise, which as you said is going to reduce the mechanical load. And the reason I think that this is fine because some people might say, well, you need that mechanical load for adaptation. And I agree, however, we're getting it on Mondays. You're getting a far more elastic stimulus and neural stimulus on Mondays than you're getting on those other days. So I think, I think that's why, and I would agree, I think maybe doing it every other week, you know, one thing I really like to do is alternate. So I think about doing, for example, threshold every Tuesday for three weeks, and then you do a two week cycle. So a 14 day cycle where you say, hey, on the first Tuesday, you're going to threshold it on the second Tuesday, you're going to do threshold and VO2, or you're just going to do VO2. And then the next block, you can just do a VO2 session on every Tuesday or whatever it is. And I think that's what I mean by the progression. So for example, instead of doing 10 by three minutes at 520 pace in a blood lactate of 2.8 with a minute rest, maybe you progress that and you say, okay, I'm going to blend it. So I'm going to start with three by five minutes of threshold with one minute and 15 second rest or one minute rest. Generally, I like a five to one work to rest ratio on threshold. And then I would say, okay, we're actually going to do some VO2 work after this. So we're going to do 10 by 600 with one to one work to rest. So let's say a minute 40 or something like that, 3k-ish pace. And you're going to run these 600s. And then that way, you're getting threshold on the front VO2 on the back. And I know some coaches don't like to blend stimulus. And honestly, I think it, this is where I say like, you can accomplish things in multiple ways. You just need to know why you're doing what you're doing. And then you need to progress appropriately. So I don't know, Rally, what do you think of that as well? I honestly don't like blending them that much. And you can tell me how I'm wrong. But I've been reading Mary Spacken's book and chapter two. What an absolute G. Yeah, he's awesome. And he would say he would definitely not combining that he thinks the magic behind threshold is being able to repeat it time and time again day after day after day. And if you are mixing the threshold stimulus with a VO2 stimulus, your recovery is now tanked afterwards. Like you're going to have to have true day six. No, I mean, it depends, I guess. But I don't think he'd have you repeat a threshold session 48 hours later, would he? He would have you repeated six hours later. Well, that's what you mean. Well, we're talking about not doing a double threshold session that we're saying we're moving past that. That's what I'm saying is like you're progressing from double threshold into something more intense. a few weeks later. - Then, I think I'll probably split it to sessions, then. I'd probably do Thresh morning, and then, no, I would do that in the morning. - I would do VO2 in the morning. - Really? - And then I would do, yes. I would do that mainly for the injury prevention, is like, you are putting a ton of stress on your system. And if you're doing specific work, like VO2 work, I think you should do that fresh. You should do that in the morning. And then it comes back in the afternoon, and you're putting less stress on the body. You doesn't take as much focus. You can kind of zone out, and you can still get more stimulus in the afternoon doing some threshold stuff. So if you're progressing from double T, I'd probably do two sessions, one threshold, one VO2, one VO2, one threshold. Yeah, I could see that. I think if you're doing it in one session, it goes back to what you said earlier of like, you want to get yourself a little warmed up, before you start ripping VO2. And this actually, there's evidence behind this, right? So we talk about the slow component of oxygen uptake. We talk about oxygen kinetics, which is your ability to rapidly increase oxygen consumption, it's your ability to, 'cause when you exercise, you're gonna see a vasodilation of your blood vessels, and you're also gonna see some of these metabolic systems like your blood by carbonate system, they take time to get rolling. And so if you just jump right into them without an adequate warmup, which is why I proposed doing a hard warmup, then you're gonna fatigue like super, super quick. And I experienced this recently, I did five by mile, and the idea was to model an 8K. And so I was 200 meter jog between the middle three and 400 meter jog between the first and the last. And so we went five flat or 455, and then I was supposed to go like 508, 508, 508, and then sub five again. And let me tell you, I blew up. I got through the first rep, didn't warm up appropriately, and was lactic and had heavy arms. Now it was my first VO2 session, second VO2 session, I think of the block. So it, you know, felt horrible. But, you know what, sometimes you live and you learn. Okay, the other thing Riley, I was thinking about, so would you use blood flow restriction? And if so, how would you use it? 'Cause I know when I would use it for this build, and I know on what days I would use it, and I know how I would use it. But I'm curious of the six runs or whatever you're doing a week, is there one in particular where you're like, oh, I would probably use BFR on that day. And if you're distracted measuring your blood, don't worry, I can go first. - I'm slightly distracted, but I'll try and touch on a few pieces. I saw Brandon Miller utilize it after a workout and before strength training sessions to kind of clear some things, make your body. He said, he's not a science guy, I love Miller, but he's not a science guy. He said it like makes his legs fresher for the lift. I think that's interesting. You can kind of clear some things. Force a supply demand issue. Like you are limiting the supply of oxygen and the demand is going up. So then when you release it, it's like super charging it. I think using it, if you have unlimited time, using it for a warm up, you could properly warm up and get the MCTs rolling. Okay, why is this, my blood is not wanting to corporate. Now, you could use it for some lactate tolerance work, which would really stink. Doing some threshold jogging or something with it, 70% included. I don't know what the percentages would be, don't quote me on that. But your lactate could go up really high without any like, not as much mechanical stress. Like you're not running that fast, but you're still getting a lot of stress. I don't know what were you going to say. So I was going to talk about the exact methods of doing it and I'm irritated because Danny Mackie asked me as well as a few others for a paper. And I sent them the wrong paper and I'm annoyed with myself. I know I'm annoyed with myself for sending him the wrong paper. But it's okay, I'll find the right paper. This paper is called Blood Filler Restriction during rest periods of high intensity interval training enhances endurance performance, randomized placebo control study by Man-Tong Shua and Stephen Francis Burns in the UK, I believe. Yeah, they're in Singapore, so not the UK. And basically what they did is they had 40 healthy males do either BFR and hit or a sham and hit, which you can't really do a sham for this 'cause they're gonna know. And they completed nine sessions of high intensity interval training. So this was on a bike, but three sets of eight by 30 seconds at 90 to 105 percent of their maximal aerobic power. So this is like certainly an intense session. And notice that they're saying their maximal aerobic power and they're only doing 30 second reps and they're doing 30 seconds of active recovery. So they're doing a one-to-one work-to-rest ratio and they're at VO2 max. I think so many people think you can go at VO2 max for longer and you just can't and it irritates me. And so anyways, then they did 80% limb occlusion pressure. So that's actually quite high. And that would be like pretty stressful frankly. And what they showed is that in the 80% of limb occlusion pressure. So yeah, they're gonna basically include all arterial flow, not all of it, but 80% of it. And basically what they showed is in the hit condition. Oh yeah, yeah. So endurance performance improved in the BFR and hit condition compared to the sham and hit indicated by a greater increase in total work done, which was 25 versus 17. And I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but you're talking about very small margins here. And so that what's more is the time to exhaustion increased by 61 seconds versus 38 seconds. So both worked, right? 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off. At VO2 max, guess what? It makes you more fit. Congrats, no surprise there. VO2 max work works. And they showed that the mean total power and the reduced time to completion and a 20 kilometer time trial. So they actually did a time trial and showed that 79 seconds faster in the BFR group versus 40 seconds in the control group. So, and that was statistically significantly different. And so basically, you know, during the active recovery. So wait, let me see. So it says the BFR and hit group had 80% limb occlusion pressure applied for the first two minutes of rest between sets. Whereas the sham and hit groups cycled under, quote, sham hypoxic conditions. I don't know how they did that. This also doesn't make sense to me because it says that they had 30 seconds on and 30, 'cause it had sets with four minutes between sets. 'Cause they did three sets of eight by 30 seconds. Jeez, what a big, what a big session. So this is interesting. The BFR was only applied for the first two minutes of the set rest. That's kind of surprising. That's actually not as much BFR as I would have thought. But I mean, that would suck. 'Cause basically before you're about to do this massive fart lick, you're gonna, during your active recovery, you're gonna have BFR on. Well, you're taking it off of the rap stuff, right? Yeah, no, no, for sure you are. But it's still gonna suck. So I guess the question is like, and Riley, did you get your data, by the way? It's still loading. I hate to see that. I got the first one of the second one. Oh, did you? We'll come back to that in a minute. So I would do this BFR, by the way. Hopefully people are paying attention. I would, or maybe not, I don't know. I would consider doing the BFR stuff during some of your, those 800 sessions or the Hill repeat stuff. So it's a little hard on Hills. One thing with Hills is like, I think it's almost better on a treadmill because you can control the work-to-rest ratio unless you're gonna put like a skateboard at the top of the hill and ride it down. 'Cause otherwise, you're gonna get a one-to-two work-to-rest. Which is fine. It's fine. It's just like you're not, you're only getting stimulus and stress during the Hill Sprints. Which is okay. If you're like, well, we're trying to build neuromuscular X, Y, and Z, you're just not gonna get a lot of accumulated fatigue unless the neuromuscular system gets really fatigued, which does happen, it certainly will. - I love the, I love Hills. Like you said, I think the Hill repeats on a treadmill is definitely more advantageous because you can manage the rest, but also you don't go downhill and make it some noise. - Yeah. - You don't have it yourself. So like all that, what we're trying to mitigate, we're also getting running downhill. Like that's a lot of stress on the eccentric forces of your quads. And like that's a big amount of stress, especially if you're like unstable because you're really fatigued. You mess up your back or do a little tweak in here and there. I would probably opt for treadmill hills if you can. - Yeah. And you can manage the speed, you can manage the incline, you don't have to worry about traffic. I just think treadmill traffic. The blights of being a runner. No, I agree too on like the eccentric load managing that. And you know, as we said, like you're trying to mitigate eccentric load by running uphill in general. Now there may be a time and a place to do that because I do think the downhill running can be used as a form of like over-speed training. But I don't know much about that and haven't read much about it. What's interesting though, and there's a paper I always come back to, and unfortunately they have an error 'cause they in the papers say that, I think this study's at a Kenya. But it's funny. They're like, yeah, when you look at the average times of the 800 that they report. They're like, yeah, people ran one minute and 30 seconds in the 800 in the time trial. And I'm like, yeah, that didn't happen. That's impossible. And so I'm like, either it wasn't an 800 meter track or, yeah, something else had to be off. But, but it was clearly the same condition every time. And what they did show is that when they did the short hill, or I think it's, they call it shallow hill, the shallow hill group. They showed the greatest improvement in, actually like a few parameters, but in the 800 meter time to exhaustion. So in the pre-test, all the times were pretty consistent, but in the short hill group, which I can figure out how they did this, they had, and this is interesting, during the hill repeats, they had the highest velocity. And they had the biggest improvement in the performance in the 800 meter time trial. So, I said short, I meant shallow hill group. So here, they used a 2.5% grade. And one of the nuances of the study is that the duration of work, of continuous work, because it's, to shallow hill versus a steep hill versus an intermediate hill. So they did 2.5, 5, and 7.6%. So basically went up by 2.5% each grade. You can't hold four minutes at 7.6% at 85 to 100% of the heart rate max, which is what the metrics that they use. So they controlled heart rate, they clamped heart rate or tried to. And that is quite a big range. But then they had these hill sprints of two minutes and then they'd have four to six minutes of recovery again 'cause you have to jog down the hill. And then the total duration of running, it is technically the same, but steady state running is shorter in the intermediate and steep hill group. So I think there really is something to be said for trying to do like hill sprints of three to five minutes of duration. Because again, 80 up to 70% of the 800 is aerobic. And you're gonna have like very high aerobic stressors when you're doing hill repeats. So yeah, I'm certainly a proponent of that. So those are two studies that come to mind. So I would do, I would do the BFR. I would do it, this is where it's tough. I could see an argument for doing it on one of the threshold days, even though they technically did it on a video two day, or you could do it on that Thursday session. And I think a lot of people would be reluctant to do that. But because they'd be worried like, "Oh, well, you're not running pace." And I'm like, okay, fine. So do it every other week maybe, so that you're still touching that neurological system. And the other thing that I think about is like, you're still getting the stimulus. Like they didn't say that they ran slower in the BFR. You definitely run slower. Well, you're only doing it for two minutes of the start of the jog, maybe, I don't know. That's true, yeah, maybe not. I mean, the other thing is they're a view to max. I would personally do one of the hills because the hills you don't care about speed, you're only going for bulk stimulus. Oh, that's actually a good point. But that's still your Thursday session. 'Cause you said you were swapping out your hills for your Thursday session. - True. - Yeah. - So do double up hill repeats and BFR. Your legs would just turn to spaghetti. Now, I have a tendency to retain muscle mass. So I'd be scared that I'd turn into quadzilla. Isaac York's reached out recently. He's going to start working out with us on Fridays. He's a 336 1500 guy. And I think he, like me, is going to have some large quads and I'm pretty excited to have another quadzilla out there on the track. So we're going to be the quad squad. - The flycar, by the way, is slowly trending upwards. - Dude, get out, tell me the numbers. - Get me. - Okay, it's 17 minutes in. I'm supposed to be 15, but I'm not that good at it. So it takes me a little bit. - Oh, correct. - It's 17 minutes in. pH is 7.43, one. So it went the wrong direction, but it's only 17 minutes in. As 32 minutes in, it now goes the right direction. 7.443, partial pressure of CO. 2 went from at baseline 31.9. 17 minutes in was 32.2. 32 minutes in was 32.1. CO3, that doesn't matter. That one's the wrong way. - Do you have, have you just done two hydrogens? Or do you have three? Do you have a 45 minute time point yet? - Not yet. That's going to be coming up here. I should actually do that instead of. - I need to know. - Sodium, sodium 127 at baseline, 128 at 17 minutes in. - 124 at 32 minutes in. - Okay. - I'm going to calculate the hydrogen concentration. Because when you see a pH of a change in 0.01, you're like, "Totosium, you know anything." But again, this is to the negative log and you're looking at biological values. You don't want your bloods never going to change to lemon juice. It's just going to get slightly more basic. So I'm going to calculate these hydrogen concentrations. But all right, to be honest, Riley, this is going to be the most important parameter. And I'm pretty sure, interestingly enough, that when we looked at this in a certain individual, they followed a similar trend where the hydrogen ions went like one direction and then bounced back the other direction. And I think when you look at blood lactate, this can happen too. If somebody doesn't get an adequate warmup, now you're not working out. So this might go out the window. But, you know, we really want to see the trend. So I guess we pretty much just have to wait. But that's okay. You're still changing your pH levels. Let's see, let's see what the change. What's the change in concentration and percent change? I'm using AI for this. Lord, forgive me. What was to give the tree and judge straight to judge the beauty, it's making a graph while we were he then. So we have a 1.6% decrease from the first to the last measure. And then from the second to the third measure, it's even greater because it went through a hung direction. So this next one, Riley, is really the, unfortunately, we've been podcasting for 58 minutes. So you better get this before the end of the pod. 'Cause the listeners need to know what's gonna happen if bicarbonation actually works. At least we have some preliminary data, I guess. We gotta keep testing it. So the other thing I want to talk about, the other thing that I think would be useful and Riley hit on this already with this build is that I think it would be helpful if we did some of the threshold stuff on the lever or the alter G. So I think that's another thing I would consider. And then also on Mondays, potentially using some like, if you have access to overspeed training, that might be worth it. Have you ever explored overspeed training, Riley? - Yeah, I just chatted with the founder of Lightspeed Lift. He reached out after I posted the video about the alter G, he was jealous that he's, we're not using a light speed system instead. He wants to send me a system and we were talking about how he has seen it implemented in college programs. And he said it is super beneficial. Now this is the founder of the company, so take away the grain of salt. It was super beneficial for overspeed training, particularly on a curved treadmill. He said with a people who are doing overspeed training with a lever or lightspeed lift system or alter G system boost system, they might be getting some, and this might be a rabbit hole, but their hamstrings might not be getting as much adaptations as they would on ground because they're typically using 1% incline or something, and you're not getting the back kick as much. You're kind of just pulling it through. I mean, the treadmill is pulling you along instead of you pushing against the ground. So he would recommend doing overspeed training on a curved treadmill so you can get some hamstring adaptations. We saw this with the mayor about, everyone was having hamstring issues and what increased this time. Now it was probably some of the shoe issue, like you were talking about your latest reel, but it was also, a lot of people were doing a good chunk of their training on a treadmill so you don't get as much hamstring issues or activation. - Dude, don't be dog in the tread. I wanna talk about my double threshold data 'cause I just got new data points today. I did find the acute effects of overspeed training. This is a systematic review from 2022, and basically what it shows that there was an increase in the following with overspeed training. Obviously max running speed, and this was a very large effect size of 1.54, which I've explained to effect size somewhere else. Actually, it's in my newsletter, which I haven't posted yet. I gotta get that posted. It increased the stride length. Again, a large effect size. Flight time was higher and then stride rate was trivial, but there was a decrease in contact time, which is good because we know that the faster you run, the shorter your ground contact time will be. These biomechanical features do support the fact that you might be able to see some adaptations. I'll look for a chronic study, but I was bringing that up because I think that might be worth including on that Monday session is to do maybe a little bit of overspeed training, maybe do some of those sprints on a very, very shallow, short hill so that you can, again, try and increase your maximal power output. That's maybe another way you could, again, we're getting extra fancy. And then, who knows, Riley, would you do the EWAT thing? We're breathing special gases on any of the threshold days, or would you just do that easy runs? I think EWAT would be for easy runs because it's for oxygen saturation so you can recover faster. I wouldn't use that on threshold because you're mitigating some of the adaptations that you want, but you could, the contrast on a threshold workout. What do you call contrast? Hypoxic to hypoxic, where you'd have two backs. One back. I still think that's dangerous. I don't care what you say, but here you are testing your blood in real time. Luckily, it's you testing your own blood because there's no way you're following BSL to protocols. You're a giant walking hepatitis risk. So this has been fun. So hopefully the listeners enjoy this podcast. Before we hop off, I do want to quickly just talk about some things or touch on some things that Riley's been, Riley and I have been talking a lot about. So the fuel thing is one of them. He and I have been working on some nitrate testing that we're going to talk about. So we have some beetroot extract that we're testing the nitrates in. And then the other thing is, Riley made a post recently about big broccoli and some of the potential inconsistencies in the concentrations of things. And I had some of my athletes, and I'll say that's not Riley because I don't want people to constantly think Riley's plugging his own stuff, which I wouldn't blame him for. But some of my athletes were like, well, Numeo's got all this other stuff in it. And I'm like, yeah, maybe. But also, the main active ingredient is the sulphur fans. And people are like, well, it has NRF2 in it. And I'm like, no, it does not. It does not have NRF2 in it. NRF2 is the transcription factor. Both of them have broccoli sprout extract. Both of them have sulphur fans. Both of them have either glucoraphanin and. Neurosinase or not, I always say those wrong, but it doesn't matter. And so the point here is that they're basically very, very similar active ingredients. Okay, there's some nuances with how you can do this and you can go watch Riley's Real if you want to check it out. But the main point is that these act, I believe, as a nucleophile. Okay, so when you're taking these supplements, they are going to act as a nucleophile, which means that they like positive charge. And so they're going to, they're gonna go and grab keep one, which is bound to NRF2 and allows it to get, I believe, ubiquitinated and then degraded normally. And it pulls keep one off of NRF2, which is a transcription factor. That NRF2 can then translocate to the nucleus and then it can activate all these prooxidative pathways that should help activate antioxidant pathways. And then as a result, you can, I think part of it too is it's gonna help oxidize some other things, potentially lactate, though the pathway is not completely understood. All this to say, people are like, "Well, Nomeo has been well tested." I'm like, they didn't use Nomeo in the original studies. They used acylphorophane supplement and then they use like dedicated doses of it. So I think maybe in the last one, they used like what they're calling Nomeo. And then I think they maybe used, what's the, oh, I can't, alphalfa maybe or something. I forget what the, what the placebo was, but probably this is dried. So it should in theory be more stable, so if you leave it out in the sun, it is gonna degrade. I don't know why you would do that. And then I think I got most of it. Yeah, miss anything, Riley? Yeah, hold on, let me take a photo of this, but 'cause I just got the latest. What's our pH coach? The people are waiting, they need to know. 7.442, I don't remember what the last one was. It's the same. Same, okay. Well, that's okay, it's consistent at least. Stand by, okay. Do you answer your question? Yes, first study wasn't even done with Nomeo. And if anything, this is gonna sound biased. If anything, it was done. Oh, it's gonna be biased. It turned your ears off. It was done with a more similar product to what we currently offer. Now, here, this will be on video only, but when I mix this in water, watch what happens. The sugar and flavoring mixes with the water. Now, what's on top here, you can kind of see without mixing, this is gonna be tough to see. What am I looking at, Rayleigh? That's disgusting, dude, clean that jar. No, you can see what's floating on the top without mixing, that is actually broccoli seeds. So, people saying that is just standardized is loud. Well, isn't it, it's sprout seeds, I guess. Which I guess is the same. No, it's broccoli. It's actually broccoli seeds. Wait, I thought the sprouts were rich in the seeds are. So, the seeds are high in glucorephicin that we then combine with myronase to create the sulforophane. So, glucorephinin, not glucorephicin. Sorry, I correct them every time. So, if, and yes, there are other ITCs in this product. They're just not tested. We don't know how many of the other ITCs are. We know what the sulforophane is, and that is the most potent of which. Or the one that is the most studied, I guess, in what's looked at. Now, with the competitor, with the broccoli sprout shots, the competitor, none of which is measured. You don't know, I don't even think they know, I can't say that. They potentially don't know what's in it either. So, we have the measured sulforophane, and there are other ITCs in there. It's just that's not what's standardized. We're standardizing sulforophane. So, hopefully that clears something, so. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Riley, I was looking if we had shared, you and I have shared many dumb photos through the years. I was looking at for that data of the data from that individual where we tested it, and I can't find it, and I want to find it before we hop off the podcast. So, while I stall, I want to talk about nitrates and why you should be taking them. No, it's okay, we'll probably just let them go, and then I'll find it, 'cause I want to see if the magnitude of change in the previous experiment matches what you're observing with this experiment. Oh, here we go, I found it. Or did you? Yeah, yeah, here. So, in for context, it's buffering. It's buffering, come on. For context, from what I can see of this, it is showing that the, here we go. Showing these sales, I don't care about sales. Okay, here we go. So, it's interestingly enough, the pH did do a similar thing where decreased initially, or yeah, decreased initially, and then it rose. So, in the first 15 minutes, yeah. And then, actually, this thing keeps going up, it actually peaks at 75 minutes. And in that duration of this data, the pH is that you're seeing are super similar. So, this, so for example, in this data, it shows the baseline is 7.40, it went down to 7.39 at 20 minutes, it was 7.39, so it got more acidic. By 30 minutes, it came back up to 7.41, 40 minutes, 7.42, 50 minutes, 7.43, 60 minutes, 7.44 by 70 minutes, it came all the way up to 7.45, and then they stopped at 80 minutes, which it again showed 77.45. So, yours is, your data is actually very similar to what preliminary data we have collected elsewhere from a different lab. It's interesting that the pH is consistently going down at first. I found that interesting. I wonder why that is. Maybe it's 'cause of the bicarbonate itself, isn't acid, it's a weak acid? I don't know. H2CO3. H2CO3 is a weak acid. I don't know, maybe you're retaining, I don't know, we'll think about it later. I'm not a chemist, I don't wanna think about it that hard. Some chemists is gonna DM me after this, and be like, "You're dumb." Now, I know that the listeners are bored, and they wanna leave, but maybe we'll just like, tack on a little snippet once we get all the results, and we'll put something up. - No, dude, we're gonna make 'em, no, no, no, they have to watch the next podcast. Or maybe we can pause the podcast, and we'll open it back up in a few minutes to see what the results are. For those of you listening, thank you guys so much for listening. I know this was a long one, but Riley and I had some fun, and I don't really care. You don't have to listen a whole thing, life will go on. But I do wanna plug a few things for us. So, first and foremost, if you guys are interested in being coached to check out enduranceletitory.com, you can apply online. We've had some awesome performances recently. I posted a ton of them on my story, and then also on the podcast. Shout out Eli Anderson. This dude has been tearing it up. He just ran 1443 at Debtwiler, which is kind of the state course for, I believe, Illinois. Don't quote me, sorry, Eli, it's off the dome. So, he's been racing extremely well. He's a junior, he's a top-ranked guy in the single A, and then we've got some guys at Xavier. So, Nolan O'Connor's getting ready to race. I'm excited to see what he does. We've also got Jackson Gold, who's coming back off injury. He's been a high performer in the past, and then Charles Kavanaugh, don't worry, he's getting better too. We're gonna see what happens with him. These are some of the high school guys. And then, we've got some people doing a high rocks this weekend in Tampa. So, shout out Brandon Allen and Rubin. I'm excited to see how you guys perform. Really excited to see what happens. So, thank you guys so much for listening. If you haven't done so already, subscribe to the podcast, leave us a five-star review. And if you like the podcast with Riley, shoot me a DM, please don't leave comments on the Spotify for creators. 'Cause guess what, I don't check them, and I'm sure that you'll leave something negative, and that's okay, I can handle it. It's just annoying, but I can handle it. Even though I can't, I'm a little sensitive about it. But shout out to Riley, thanks for joining us. If you guys like this, we'll do this more consistently. We'll get podcasts out more consistently, and we'll do some more real live testing. So, like I said, we'll tag onto the end of this podcast. You'll be hearing from me again, so hold tight, and we'll tell you what the results are. Hey guys, I'm just touching up on the last bit of the podcast. Riley's been testing this for a good while, Sarah Hall's about to come to the podcast, we don't have a lot of time. But unfortunately, his last pH measure, the thing we cared about the most, did not read, but we did get his HCO3 negative, which is his bicarbonate levels. And it has slowly been climbing, so 21.5, 21.5, 22.0, 22.1, 22.3. And when we tested this previously, that's actually in line with the change score that we saw. So there is enough data at this point, at least to be like, okay, all of it is getting absorbed through the skin. A lot of people are like, dark here, work. And I'm like, well, I don't know what to tell you, because we're seeing this in the data, there are publications that show it can happen. And so, for Riley, his poor fingers, I'm just gonna. - He's getting the last one. - So we're getting the last one. - Oh boy, he's gonna get the last one. We'll have to include the final results on the next podcast, but at this point in time, I think his blood pH has changed by about 1.1.4%. Now keep in mind that this data is not mutually exclusive, because it's dependent on the previous measure. So we're gonna have to see what happens with the next one. And again, in this other study, it peaked it like 70, 80 minutes, and they didn't take it beyond 80 minutes. Though, who knows, maybe it kept going up. It's hard to say, but I'm sure Riley will keep at it, and then he's gonna test oral bicarb with this later as well to see kind of what happens with a known bicarbonate. So, Riley, good luck. God bless to your fingers. And make sure you guys check out our next podcast. So, Riley will be coming back on. I'm sure as well as listening to Sarah Hall as she's gonna come on here in a few minutes. So, thank you guys for joining us. - Who's?