Right time, right price: LVMH’s Jean-Christophe Babin on Bulgari's hotels & TAG Heuer’s CEO woes

We also market with grow or not, next year doesn't matter so much. The point is that we will grow because we will get market share. A brand can be stretched, eat the stretch, eat discipline and consistent with the DNA. We never open a unit in a city or on an island. If we are not convinced that we will be the single most expensive hotel. So it will be crazy to be prized, those brands from the expertise, experience, the capabilities and the capacity of the unit. My wife found in the house in a very old case a plate I painted when I was five years old. And on the plate you have a small boy, myself, with a smile like that. And behind me there is a huge sun and I'm like that with the clouds right open. So I was born happy. Hello and thank you for joining us on another episode of the Luxury Society podcast brought to you by Digital Luxury Group in no particular order. I'm your host Robyn Swithinbank. And I'm your co-host David Sede. Good stuff David. What stories have been flowing in the waters of the river on this week? The conquest of the word by the AI agents. Did you hear the story and the overordinated around Claude Boat? I've had a lot of stories around AI this week but specifically by Claude, tell me more. So this Claude Boat is like a social media build for agents where humans are not allowed to intervene. So basically you have thousands of agents, your agents, talking to my agents, developing their own language, sharing a lot of different stories, including a lot of things that are absolutely useless but also trying to develop a plan to conquer the world. I just think that whether it's a laugh or a cry when I hear this, I'm going to think laughter is the wrong emotion but yes, it's a shame this is not a visual medium because there are tears running down my cheeks as we speak. I was reading a piece earlier today on investing.com which according to a disclaimer at the bottom had been generated by AI and then reviewed by an editor. That's an editorial outlet producing content using AI. This is the point at which I start to get incredibly nervous. I can understand that and I can relate to I think the word when crazy over the weekend and especially many of the gigs around the world on Twitter and everyone was talking about how exciting this new era. Obviously many of them saying look it's the beginning of the new era where agents are taking over the world and so on. I think we have been discussing I quite a number of times about the dispolarization of the world. In our opinion, interesting reminds me of the beginning of use net. Use net was like the beginning of the internet, those forums where people were sharing ideas but also how to find fake Rolex replica, Jaguar and a bunch of other stuff. Some middle-aged man shopping list. Exactly. What's on your side, Roman? Well, I'm nervous about it. I must say and I think we're going to come back to this in a bonus episode in a couple of weeks time. So let's call a little bit of a halt on AI for the moment. My week's been quite different. I went out to Switzerland to visit Odomar Pee Game which was hosting its annual gathering in the Alpine Resort of Andermat. Before anybody gets the right idea, no, I didn't ski, no, I didn't indulge in the towns at Praysky Culture. More was the pity. It was a bit more of a touch and go really but it did include some hands-on experience with AP's new collection, highly ambitious as it was. And some FaceTime with the Swiss Watchmakers Chief Executive of La Réresta who as our regular listeners will remember we had on the show back in the autumn. Or was you Laia doing? Yeah, I'd say she was bullish as the word I'd used. She was certainly confident. She looked very comfortable in her position and indeed with the news that she had to share with us, which was the headline is that AP was up by 10% in 2025. So she's talking about revenues at that point. That would give it in my estimation revenues of around 2.6 billion Swiss francs. And that's using Morgan Stanley's figures from last year and then adding the 10% in dollars. That's around 3.4 billion dollars or 2.5 billion pounds depending on your currency preferences. And even allowing for a generous rounding up, that would very much go against the industry norm, the federation. Now the Swiss Watch industry drops its 2025 export figures at the end of January, which you may have seen. And they reported that the sector values were down almost 2% on 2024 and 4.5% on the record year of 2023. So how come AP has bugged the trend? Yeah, it's a fair question. It's the right one. It's a question I put to her. CEOs are always a little bit evasive when it comes to answering questions like that. Of course, they'll give you the nebulous answer at the increasingly inevitable CEO maxima. They're improving the client experience. They've done a lot of work at point of sale, customer loyalty, CRM, etc. These things that they never stop working on of course. But she wasn't entirely evasive though when I put it to her that some of that increase surely has to lie in higher average price points. Now there are two factors here. I suppose one is that the average price point has increased because they have focused very heavily on content. And when I say content, I mean higher end complications. They've increased the functionality of a lot of their watches, which of course increases the price. They've also increased a lot of the material value in their watches. Much higher focus on pressures and innovative materials, experimental materials. The other side of it of course is that there have been price increases and those of course are down to inflation on the one hand. They're down to the impact of US tariffs. They're down to the impact of the price of gold which in the last weeks since we recorded as fluctuated extraordinarily, there's a thousand dollar differential against the announced of gold which we've not seen at any point in history as far as I'm aware. So economically uncertain of these times. I'm not long the short of it was that things are looking good at AP and when pushed, she was confident that the company would continue to grow this year. She wouldn't say by how much. She thought maybe low mid to low single digits. I'm not expecting a really too offered any more than that really. But she did sound some positive notes around recovery in China and sustained appetite in the US despite having to raise prices to accommodate those pesky tariffs. So when was maybe in a year of now we would be talking about how AP and the other brands are being like traded on Claude Boats by the owner's agent. You just can't get away from it, can you? What is real, what is tangible and what is human? This is becoming my mantra for this season of the podcast and in life generally. And I think that's one of the reasons why appetite remains high for mechanical watches. The trouble is that they're too expensive at the moment. Those FHS figures, the Federation of the Swiss watch industry figures, showed that volumes were down by 740,000 last year. So they're selling fewer and fewer watches despite the fact that many brands are recording very high levels of appetite. So there's an inconsistency there for me that needs resolving. Anyway, David, we must get on with the show. This week we've given center stage to one of the biggest names we've had on the podcast to date and shortly will bring you our interview with luxury industry, Doyan, John Christoff, Bama, who as many of you will know is the CEO of the Italian Jula Bulgari and head of LVMH's watch division. By his own admission, John Christoff is never a man short of a few bon mo. So fuck a lot. Here's what he had to say. Let's go. This week David and I are honored to be joined by one of the leading lights of the luxury industry over the past three decades. Mr. John Christoff, Bama, John Christoff, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. How are you? Thank you very much. Good evening. Hello. Very happy to be with you. Let's go to the here. Look, before we get into our conversation, allow me to share some of your back story with our listeners. Now today, John Christoff is the group CEO of the Italian Jula Bulgari and CEO of LVMH's watch division where he oversees TACWIA Cublo's in it and LePay as well as Bulgari's watchmaking business. He's also the founder of President of the annual Geneva Watch Days event, which last September, some more than 60 brands gather on the banks of Leip Geneva. He began his career in the late 1970s, moving into FMCG in the 1980s and 90s, taking roles of Proctor and Gamble and Hankel before in the year 2000. He was recruited to head up TACWIA, which a year earlier had been acquired by the French luxury conglomerate LVMH. He would stay at TACWIA for almost 13 years, turning it into one of LVMH's top 10 brands with an aggressive, monobran boutique strategy, a fleet of wildly innovative watches and partnerships with the likes of Tiger Woods, Ume Sermon and Lewis Hamilton. Then in 2013, he was appointed CEO of the multi-disciplinary Bulgari group, which would be bought by LVMH in 2011 in a deal reported to be worth 3.7 billion euros. In the year since, he has transformed his business, expanding its Bulgari hotels and results footprint, significantly upgrading its watch output, and expanding the reach, influence and sales of the brands leading product category, jewelry. Campaigns with Anne Hathaway's endire, Yifay Lalisa and Priyanka Chopra have cemented the Roman Jewels reputation as one of the most glamorous, desirable brands on the planet. Revenue is acclaimed under Jean-Christophe Watch, according to Morgan Stanley estimates, sales rose from 2 billion euros in 2020 to 3.47 billion euros in 2024. Beyond Bulgari has made headlines through its CSR programs, donating more than $100 million to save the children and producing hundreds of thousands of bottles of hand sanitizer during the COVID pandemic. Many of those went to the UK's National Health Service prompting the BBC to invite Jean-Christophe to its studios for a memorable interview. In 2024, this led to the establishment of the Bulgari Foundation, of which Jean-Christophe is also president. But as those among his 200,000-plus followers and Instagram may know, a new chapter beckons for the veteran executive. In July, he will step away from his role as Bulgari CEO, handing over to his current deputy, Laura Berrazi. Jean-Christophe, a lot going on, a big CV, so good to have you on the podcast. How are you today? Well great, I mean, very happy to have the podcast together with you. You are two flattering on my territory. Honestly, it could have been two or three times as long. I had to cut most of it out. No, but probably I think I've been extremely lucky in my life, which explains to some extent how I eventually managed to be bossed CEO Bulgari and the LVMT watches. The thing I would say is the right people sizing the right opportunities, but always with an important share of luck. I think he's necessary for a need to choose a school business woman, not business man. Well look I'm sure a lot plays a part but then again I'm sure hard work plays an even bigger part. It's a really interesting time to be interviewing you for all sorts of reasons and it feels like there's a lot riding on our first question given there are so many directions we could take this conversation in but let's start with a vision question. We all know the luxury industry is battling headwinds left and right. We know there are very few luxury brands CEOs who are ready to say that the storm is going to pass this year so are these challenges simply environmental and temporary or does the luxury industry in your view have a long term existential problem on its hands? Well first I think there has been a bit of dramatization of the year 2025 and even 2024 and if we take what she's only for instance we know that yet the Swiss exports title number for December but probably it would be very similar to what is the year to the November that is -2% versus 24 and 24 itself was slightly below 23 which was all times record of the Swiss Swiss industry. Benefiting also from the post-COVID event buying which has somehow artificially boosted the year 23 so we compare ourselves to a very high year and it's true for watches but it's true for any category why because we're actually two years the planet has been plagued with COVID looking down people and forcing them against a will to indulge into spending and especially luxury spending as the most tall reclose except for grocery and medicines. So you think the problems are primarily environmental in which case? I would say that during COVID obviously it slowed down quite important and after COVID the surge in demand which was first boosted by the fact that people had been deprived from freedom from the possibility to indulge in what they like whether it's our luxury or experiential luxury like the hotels and we have several other things and therefore we tend to compare ourselves logically to the CO2 distribution of this year's industry at the park which was the cumulative frustration from 2021-22 which mean that eventually we look at the 25 numbers historically it's a good year and as LBMH has stated no later than yesterday evening mentioning it's watching through the revision it is returned Bulgaria is again achieved or recorded so despite everything we have managed as Bulgaria brand to have our best year ever to have our best jewelry year ever our best watch is year ever our best productivity per store ever our best month ever our best quarter ever which was the last one of the year that's why I tend to moderate the pessimism surrounding me to rather the line that means the incredible resilience of luxury in an environment which is very different from COVID of course but some example it was only even if it was a tragedy but it was only a medical issue which obviously has been sold to then a couple of years later get into a totally different world which is made of conflicts wars not only I mean in Korea but you have conflicts also in the least you have tensions and you have conflicts between India and Pakistan it has been short but it has been a true conflict you have huge tensions between China, Japan and Taiwan and a lot of uncertainty and stability we are totally new approach of the American presidency yes it's interesting to hear you say the Bulgarian has had this record year given that LBMH is 2025 results which for the benefit of the list and that came out last night as you've just mentioned we're recording at the end of January given the LBMH results indicated a decline in revenues and a decline in profits you must have booked the trend of Hungary well we have been in any market gaining to 100% or losing to 100% you always have significant discrepancies between the brands and as I say often to my team was also market to grow not next year doesn't matter so much the boy that we will grow because we'll get market share and all our obsession is to be creative enough to be really event enough to be consistent enough of a time so that the durability of Bulgarian rather than taggerian low beneath the peak are increasing in such a magnitude that despite a more cautious client because clients are more cautious say we'll be a resistible and eventually clients will buy those brands and we will get market share and eventually we'll manage to grow in the market which is stable loss like declining do you expect to go this year and as per our Dino said last night the outlook is not straightforward not easy but to make you more confident than that well 26 is apparently again we are not only at the end of the first month but looks unfortunately pretty similar to 25 when it comes to macroeconomics when it comes to geopolitics we see that the tensions I mentioned earlier which appear as of 22 but culminated in 25 or today exactly as a level the foreign exchange is extremely volatile yesterday the dollar has reached an all-time no versus a euro or the Swiss for all let's not forget that we are producing our chees instruments so a never strong currency entry at the same time the gold is a bit in record after record now we are 5200 dollars around this means that it has increased 85% just one year and this has obviously an impact on the cost of still gold watch and obviously jewelry which is entirely made of gold or platinum so as it is you know there are no major changes there are more worsening elements gold is one last year we started the year at 25 and red we saw that at 35 and red which was very high and today we are 32 and red so where will it stop no one knows so the dollar many markets are dollar driven or dollar paid or dollar related and the dollar infallibly as those 10% last year and again seems to lose further value at least for the first month so this year as we produce in Switzerland the gap is more and more with the dollar and the Swiss from so it looks at the challenge are equal to more than last year the difference being that after the covid after 24 which has been already a difficult year 25 which has been an even more difficult year probably at the company and as companies because I'm talking about obviously of all brands I'm all looking we have learned to be much more giant to be also much more relevant in our innovations probably fewer but better in the sense more desirable more attractive there was a time in what is when I remember that up to 25% of all sales were made with news this was in the mid 2010s before covid know what is our companies but it's true for many other living wage companies or the novel is made maybe of 10% of news no more than that why because the essence of our luxury which is most of my business which is injury is timeless and when something is timeless you don't necessarily need that any cause to renew it all the time in fashion it's really the never the game you had several collections all across the year they started already with a fashion week in the January end of use these those collections if you like them and if you miss them you won't have the possibility to appropriate a bag or accessory that you have seen because the next one we should do the follow-up I would like to deep dive on tag herior a brand that you know extremely well I was fortunate to spend a couple of years also witnessing the trajectory of tag herior under your tenure as a CEO now since you left tag herior in 2013 the brand has no cycle through seven CEOs including Antoine Pain who we had on the podcast recently we departed in January as someone who knows the brand DNA better than almost anyone what does tag herior need now does it near stability reinvention a bit of both you're right that there have been many changes for to take you for a reason it's true that over the first 150 years of the brands have been seven included and in the last 30 years there have been another seven so there's been a kind of speeding up change that the end of the company which is good but at a certain time obviously as to be a bit slow down good is the sense that the brand remains an extremely desirable active and very clearly position brand I think that more than ever the fact that tag herior is the fellow our brand tag herior is the brand measuring the tiniest fraction of times tag herior is a brand of mental strengths tag herior is the brand of competition was true when I was only the brand regardless of the CEOs we came after me whether they were seven or one doesn't matter the brand still sent to that in those for values I just mentioned remain extremely inspirational so eventually those management changes approved some interesting news to the brand for instance like yours has been balled through there as a connected watch great idea because when it was launched Apple was trigger and no one knew what it would become it might have substituted most of those research industry eventually begun and it added rather more instruments and leverage and tag herior today the only lecture watch brand Swiss brand with connected watch which is a bigger advantage in the sense that we talk about a market of 250 million units the Swiss watch market is 15 so it's huge and obviously like in any marketing is in Zerzru for at least least one super luxury brand in such a big market. And this brand obviously doesn't pretend to do millions, at all. Some tens of thousands is good enough, but it positions tagging more than ever as an avant-garde brand, daring brand, why at the same time generating obviously most of its sales, all the historically iconic collections such as the Monaco, the Carrier Ramp, the Aquarius of the Problem No One. At this, as being thanks to management change, it's some things that I didn't think about, and probably I would have thought about. And so in those years, several different CEOs broke the brand, many ideas. And obviously, my role today is to ensure that some of those ideas were enriched or brand forever. Some of those ideas, which like any idea, myself, might say, years, or other ideas, which did not be the success which was expected, yours gradually can be dismissed. It's interesting, it makes the brief the incoming TACOUS CEO, at the time of recording we don't know who that will be. But it makes the brief quite challenging at the moment, because the product makes is wide. As you said, you got the luxury small watch, which is about $2,000, you got the Formula One Watch, which is about $2,000 as well. And then of course, you've got some very high-end complications which come in around $150,000, maybe even a bit more. Can TACOUS be both accessible and exclusive? Well, you know, this is nothing new in my times, talk about the early 2000s. The starting point was below 1000, and in 2004, when I decided to range reviews of Formula One, which had disappeared in '97, it was even 650 Swiss francs. But as I said, time we launched the V4, which was well over 100,000 Swiss francs. We launched the Michael Timer, Anders of a second, which was also close to 100,000 Swiss francs. I talked about 18 to 20 years ago, and even though there's not much relation in Switzerland, this would mean, in nowhere there's prices, some single route 200,000. So, a year during the past has been extremely successful on the one hand, even a range where you see entry models at 615, which today, because they've evolved in terms of quality, in terms of movements, we are using the solar graphs and not any longer, a quantum movement. But basically, the stretch I created and managed from 650 to 120,000, today is from 1800, 180,000, so the stretch has no change. And this never prevented the red to be successful. And if I take another brand, take Buggeri, we start a cocktail, which is not the cheapest watch, but the October mother, the first one, and I take it purposely. He started around 7,000 Swiss francs, it's a manufacturer, a strength watch, so example, but it ends at 1 million as a chiming watch. So, learning that a brand can be stretched, eats a stretch, eats discipline, and consistent with the DNA. No matter whether the formula won cost today 1800, and the second cost 120,000, both at the same purpose, it's all about motor racing, it's all about measuring fraction of times. And it's all consistent with current campaign driven to win, as it was in the times of success in the Ryan game. As long as your stretch is within a narrative, which is exactly the same. The client perfectly understand that, for all the solar grass, formula one, true mechanical split second, more than cool, rather than a carra, obviously, serious use, but if the split second is too expensive for you, you have a beautiful carra, carograph, which it is, yeah, it's 1000 euros. There's never been an issue where I can tell you the same injury, you can find a beautiful ring at 3500 euros, and you have beautiful, one of the kinds that pertinent places, that's your major in your rules. I want to talk about the zenith, it seems to be evolving from a sleeping beauty brand into the movement engine for the entire of image watch group, including Dior and Tiffany, Tiffany of course just announced the Tiffany timer with the zenith El Pereira movement. This makes it essentially the beating heart of the power system brand, and it seems to me that's a bit like turning an artist into an industrial supplier. How do you preserve zenith's soul while scaling its role as a caliber factory? Well, they obviously has no hour in terms of mechanical movements, especially through and primarily, but also elite, which knows a brand in the Bible, folio, can pretend. And they've also under one roof since the creation of the bread, which is unique in the sense that as an expertise, you need to develop to craft and to assemble movement, including components. Maybe the regulatory is the only one we don't do internally, but aside from that, most is not internally associated in the Swiss landscape, a totally unique positioning, it's really art of Swiss making. It knows how to do everything mechanical, and obviously it's very crazy not to take advantage of this expertise as a DMH, we have not only the brands I'm overlooking, but you mentioned rightly Tiffany, the beautiful chronographs that I introduced at the end. We have Louis Vuitton, we have Dior, so it will be crazy to deprive those brands from the expertise, the experience, the capabilities and the capacity of the needs. On the other end, and this is something which is right between myself, Benoit, the CEO of the need, and the most important part of the manufacturing term of movements, movement components, must come from the zenith brand. And therefore, we have a twin challenge, on the one hand, to establish the manufacturer as an even more efficient, superlative mechanical movement platform, capable to serve different brands and to customize those movements as you have seen the customization with the super zip word on the end. The bird on the rock, the bird on the rock, absolutely. But at the same time, the need is also a brand to grow and to provide to the manufacturer also the substantial demand of mechanical movements. That remains very much a part of the early main sports division strategy thing, so I think a lot of people will be wondering because there have been some rumors this year about as they're in a sale and so on. No, it's not for sale. It remains a very cool part of the early sports division. And actively working with Benoit and his team to come up and his innovation with some range extensions. You will see most of it coming in the second part of 26 because I took off as a response, several years, you mentioned not even one year ago, and usually in what she is to create a new product. Take time, take a long time, but you will see that Zenit as a brand will evolve. We renew itself why remain very focused on the master and the difficult action, which are really so to piles of the brand and developing further what has been introduced this year. The Georges L'Avjacourt, which is the iron of Zenit, is a brand that has a world record of crematory awards, a record that we remain forever in history, also because this award doesn't exist any longer. So no one will ever be getting a breakable record. Jean Christophe, one thing, it reminds me a bit of what Richmond did with Roger Dubuie at some point, really trying to leverage on the legitimacy and the mechanical capabilities/factory of the brand. I had one specific question I wanted to ask you. I remember you and I sitting couple of years back and you told me I'm going to put the price quite expensive. I want to become one of the most expensive hotels in some places like Paris and so on. I don't want just the corporate travelers to come and stay at the hotel because my goal is to attract the high-net-for-centive individual who will really experience the Bulgari feeling and they will also potentially buy a watch by some durian so on. I would like to understand, Jean Christophe, looking back, how has that experiential and cross-selling strategy worked? Well, in so far, incredibly well. In each and every single city we have been establishing down nine nowadays by 2030s, it will be 15. The expansion speaks by itself. If we move forward, it's probably because it's successful and we never open a unit in a city or on the island. If we are not convinced that we will be the single most expensive hotel beating any competitor, pure players, as well as some other no-go-tailed brands which will compete with us. That's the first point. And the second point is, being the most expensive is not sustainable. If you're not the best in delivering the consumer experience. To me, the ADR is very important. I want to be first and last year out on nine units, we have been first in seven and second in two, which is incredible. Think about the competition. I saw the pet frog ignition and so on. So I'm like, yeah, yeah, we are quite aware and I'm pretty sure our listeners are aware as well. Yeah, and we'll be even the first in Paris, the most competitive city for palaces that Super 5 started the world. But to me, it's not enough to be the first in ADR. I want to be the first in the other KPR, which is the customer experience because this is what is worth in slow term success of all business level. This is measured as scientifically as the ADR by kind of mystery client institute is collate QA. It's used by the wall industry. It's a perfect inter-invent. We all were exactly where we stand. And I want to be first in price and first in next year. QA because I cannot be first in price and not deliver the experience at the same level. Exactly. So those two parameters are the two KPIs on which all our hotels managers are rated assess, developed. And if we don't see a chance in a given, promising location to combine the first ADR with the first LQA ranking, you don't happen. We won't go. We won't go. But then just to make it super clear, Jean-Christophe, does it mean that in the few locations in which you have opened Bulgari Hotel, you have noticed a significantly increased in terms of the non-hospitality business jewelry watches accessories and so on? So I would say two dimensions when you open a Bulgari Hotel in a country or in a city, from Paris to Dubai to Beijing, it's very similar. First, it has a very strong image impact. O'Tel's really getting to the brand tattoos, power that nothing else could bring to the brand. It's also the house of the brand. Well, they only watch brand or jewelry brand who can host clients or host events already in nine locations worldwide and soon in 15. They're in mind that 90 percent of luxury is sold maybe in 20 cities in the world. We are gradually getting to a full coverage of where the wealth is spent. So there is a strategy behind the expansion explaining why we will never go in some other cities. You're right that we are not as to the corporate individual. I'm part of them because cellulose corporation kept the nights even for a CEO, rather than a few euros. So you don't stay at Bulgari Hotel when you travel Jean-Christophe? I'm just CEO of Bulgari and I search CEO of the hotels as well. So obviously, in my case, I have special conditions. The Del exception. But if I wear CEO of any other company, I couldn't spend the night at Bulgari Hotel because I don't know a CEO allowed to spend the minimum of 1500 euros per night. So all clients are made of independent people. Many entrepreneurs that don't spend one hour in a store, but they spend 24 to 72 hours in a full immersion into a brand. So the hotel is really a pool when the boutique is a pool. There are brands and pools only. We have already nine pools. So we can deep dive into the brand and we have time. We have one day, two days, three days in a store, even a super flagship. You will spend at most one hour, 19 minutes. Let's move on to talk about the future because I'll July the 1st, your successor and current deputy orbit A-Zero formally step into the Bulgari CEO role. Your remain is Chairman. What advice will you be giving to her as she steps into that role? That's probably that. On the one hand, we have a working recipe. I think that the results speak by themselves. So I would advise her not for my image. I don't care, but I would advise her for her success. To build on the pillars we have been passionately putting together over those years, which have proven very competitive, very attractive, very desirable. And to further push the brand potential to new levels, as you mentioned earlier, when we acquired that company, it was much smaller. It has proven to add the capability to grow faster than most competitors, whether it's watches or jewelry. And I'm coming to mind sell that. We are just at the beginning of the journey because no brand can be spied by 27 centuries of art, of architecture. No brand can be as welcoming as a brand born in the city of the Dolce Vita. And therefore, Bulgaria is totally unique. And you cannot copy 27 centuries of history of art, which are inspiring your jewelry and your style. You cannot copy the Dolce Vita. It's unique. So we are probably the only player which cannot be copied. And at the same time, we are the ambassadors of the magic name called Roma, which is universally famous, universally attractive, and which is a dream of 90% of the planet. And where's the ambassador of Roma worldwide? So remember where you're from and stick with the plan basically, we say in English, if I'm broke, then fix it. There is something I find quite fascinating because I remember you, Jean-Christophe Ataguer, when you were speaking on behalf of Taguer, you were breeding inside out Taguer. When you were at Bulgaria, you were breeding inside out Bulgaria. To the point that when you left from Tag to Bulgaria, many of us were thinking like, yeah, but it's really Taguer. How is it going to become Bulgari? Now I have a question for like next generation of leaders. What would be like the advice you would give to a young leader stepping into the first CEO role in today's world with AI and like geopolitical instability and all the world as we sit today? I think listening a lot and being and taking time for curiosity because if you have no curiosity or no time for curiosity, you miss a lot of ideas, a lot of I would say stimuli which can enable you to become a true leader. So listening and curiosity, I think our two fundamental advice is I would give to a young CEO taking over a company, whatever the start of the company, and starting to act without rushing unless your company is on the verge of bankruptcy. No one is asking a new CEO to change everything overnight. It depends for how long they stay. Yes, you have to stay while obviously if you want to mark the company and to take it to the next level. But I would say that in most cases, if you look at the image of CEOs and most long being at the helm of the most important brands, they could be told to be a true resource in tears, take dual delfilires in tears, ever since we've both Tiffany and Anthony has been a mean Tiffany. I'd been now we are 13 years with Boulviery and I could list you when other 10 great brands. Well, the CEO has been in command at his father's success. Watch making division needs that same level consistency, doesn't it? Well, John Christophe, time is running a little bit low, but I wanted to ask you a question a little bit more about you person, how you manage yourself, your working life is clear intense, your room today, earlier this, I think you said to us earlier today, you were in Switzerland, you travel hugely with your job and I dreamt of what you were in trade looks like. You always talking is a naturally high energy person here, your late 60s now, you're still going, lots still to do it seems, but how do you recharge and keep up your energy levels so that you're ready to go every morning? Watch your secret. It's very much related to curiosity and patience, curiosity, creating patience and when you're passionate, energy is a kind of side benefit of passion. I have been know anyone passionate who's not energy, so energy doesn't provide you passion, but passion is creating a lot of energy because passion is an obsession to do things better, to do things differently, to discover new things every day. So when you wake up, you're just happy, you're just mesmerized by the things that you're going to discover and this mechanically or psychologically or boss is creating a vibe, energy and enthusiasm, pleasure of the new day and believe it or not, I'm a genius and there is a huge benefit in aging is that you sleep much less than when you are younger, so my days are much longer, I wake up around five in the morning, which he just me far more time than 20 years ago to develop more curiosity, to learn more things and to become more and more passionate. You're right, I was passionate with staggerier, but I think that today my passion level, if you're miserable, is much more with delivery and if tomorrow I work to go to another company, probably it could increase even more. We should start complaining, Robin, that we are like aging. I think we should focus also on this idea that as we are like both curious people, we might do like-jointry stuff and try to take advantage of our time. Yeah, we have a lot of time, we have few years to leave, but much more hours to enjoy it and therefore each hour is precious and this is driving your energy if you use that time properly of course, meaning that I have a chance or so to be in a company with five total different activities plus I have the chance to manage three-watch brands which are totally different from each other, so the luck is also the feeding and fueling the passion. I have had luck and it'll be interested with challenges which are incredible because I'm one of the few CEOs who has a chance to change topic 30 times per day. My wife's found in the house in a very old case a plate I painted when I was five years old and on the plate you have it's very naive of course, a small boy myself, we just smile at that and behind me there is a huge sun and I'm like that with the arms wide open, so I was born happy, I was not lucky. You were born happy. No, I was born happy. That's a good word I think for Robin because maybe Robin you want to go and ask your like famous 2026 end of future question. I'm looking at the last question we've been asking our guest, the Jean-Christophe is, we've been asking guests to give us reasons to be cheerful but I think you've just given us a reason to be cheerful. I'm not sure you can add anything to the idea of being perpetually of a sunny disposition that doesn't want to be sold naturally perhaps but I think we should draw it to a close there. I want to thank you so much for sharing your story with us, sharing your insights with us and bringing that sunny disposition to the luck chosen side of podcast. Thanks for questioning us and good luck with the next chapter in your professional life. Guys, it was a great pleasure, a great honor to spend time with you. I know that your podcast is a very sharpest one so I'm very honored to be here today and I hope that many people will have a lot of energy not only because of time are a bit older than they used to be, but because in their Zs they saw some pleasure. Good way to finish. Thanks for your stuff. Thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out LuxurySusciety.com where you'll find stories, insights and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now. I've been your host, Robin Swithinbank and this has been the Luxury Society podcast, available on Apple, Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts.