Rich On Rock Bottom, Resolutions & Reframing Family Dynamics

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Get a free eight count sample pack of elements, most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/richroll, find your favorite element flavor or share it with a friend. We're going to begin by asking and answering three specific questions. The first question is, how do you deal with family holiday gatherings? I think that's something that everybody is sort of contending with right now. Hopefully we can provide some guideposts to help navigate that. The second question is around hitting rock bottom. What is that? What does that mean? What do you do if you are finding yourself in that situation? How do you emerge out of it? And the third question is around setting goals and resolutions for the new year, because I think that's something we're all kind of thinking about right now. After that, we're going to talk a little bit about Adam's brand new book, his novel, American Tiger. Very exciting, out this week. That sort of conjures a discussion around the relationship between dads and daughters, something I'm familiar with. Without further ado, let's just get into it. We're recording this on Monday morning after the Thanksgiving holiday. By the time this goes up this Thursday, people are in the aftermath of that experience and they're thinking about the impending upcoming holiday season of whether it's Christmas, Hanukkah, etc. How do I make that the best version of what it can be knowing that I'm going to be immersed in a family scenario that tends to be fraught. Certain things kind of happen every single year. Can it be different? And how can I take care of myself in the midst of all this? And I think the first thing is that you need to go in with a plan. You can't just roll the dice and hope for the best and think, well, maybe it'll be different this time, even though every single year, it's kind of exactly the same as a carbon copy of what happened the year prior. Obviously, the definition of insanity is sort of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. So if you want a different result. Make a plan in advance, how are you going to handle yourself differently this time? Because the thing is, I guess the first thing you have to really get your head around is your essential powerlessness over this family dynamic, like you just cannot change or control other people's behavior. And you have to get to a place of acceptance around that. And relinquish your attachment to people behaving differently than they always do and make peace with that. So there's that acceptance piece that powerlessness piece. And in terms of the plan, I think that that begins with staying out of expectations around other people's behaviors, like this expectation that they are going to behave differently. And making the plan really about controlling the controllables and there are only a very few things that you actually can control, which is your behavior and your either response or reaction to what's happening around you. So it really boils down to you. And I think we all go into these family dynamics. And thinking about the other people, I hope they don't do this or I hope they don't do that. Or if they say that, then it's all going to go crazy. And it's very extremely focused rather than accepting the reality that the only thing that you have power over is yourself. So the plan has to be around self-care. It has to be very self-focused. All you can do is alter your own behavior, how you act. And so that really has to be the focus. In the context of all of that, I think you need to set boundaries just because you're going into a family scenario doesn't mean that you have to be available all the time or just be a sponge for everybody else's behavior that tends to you know, and so it's fair to set those boundaries to limit your exposure, to no one to step away, to really know where the exits are, like, you know, like, where, how can I, you know, if I need to get out of this situation because I'm going to behave badly if I stay in it or I'm going to, you know, basically, it's going to, it's going to be deleterious to my mental health, like having a plan for either leaving early knowing where the exit is. And not necessarily having to be there all the time to attend all of the gatherings, maybe if you're used to going and staying in the same house as everybody else, you know, get a hotel if you can if you can afford that things like that where you're creating some separation and some boundaries. And that can be scary if you have a habit or a practice of always doing things a certain way because you, you know, that might ruffle some feathers. Well, yeah, you could get resistance. Yeah, no, no, you're, oh, you're going to do that. But it's like you have to really stand in your strength with that and let people react how they're going to react and not control that. Yeah, that's okay. Let people be mad or whatever. It's really about like how you're comporting yourself. Yeah, make sure you're exercising. Make sure you're taking that moment in the morning for meditation. Get good sleep. Like have a breathwork practice so that you can keep yourself calm because I think the superpower throughout this whole dynamic is neutrality, like extreme equanimity. That is the goal. That is the superpower. No matter what is happening around you, can you remain calm, neutral, and equanimous and non-reactive? The meditation, the sleep, the exercise, all of these things by you that just extra little moment where you can pause before reacting so that you can respond more consciously. And what comes out of your mouth, how you behave to whatever is going on around you really dictates the nature of the experience that you're going to have. And I think that's super important. Maybe don't drink. That would be good. You know, never never seems to make anything better. You think, well, if I have a few drinks that I can calm down, but then you just, your filter is off. You know, saying the thing you wish you didn't say in that just sets a chain reaction off of all kinds of insanity. So it's really about your relationship with yourself. One technique that I find extremely helpful in these situations. Look, I've, I've a lifetime of history, you know, lifetime history of like dealing with these sorts of situations. And even specifically recently with my mom, you know, succumbing to dementia and having to put her in a memory carry unit like everything is extremely heightened right now. And I've just been very focused on how can I be as calm and non-reactive as possible, no matter what is happening. And the technique that I deploy, I've talked about this in the podcast, I think, but it's probably been a long time. Is just to pretend like everything that's happening is a TV show that you're watching, like you can literally like draw, like, you know, around your peripheral vision, like, like, oh, what if it's this is just screen. And these are characters in a drama or some kind of weird sitcom. And you know, when you're watching a television show and people are doing crazy things, you don't, you don't get agitated or stressed or anxious about it. It's sort of entertainment, right? So can you adopt that stance where you feel like, oh, this is just a, these are characters in a show that I'm watching. And I have a choice, like, I don't need to react to this or personalize everything because people are just behaving as they always have. And they're going to do what they're going to do. And so it's really just up to you how you're going to interact with all of that. The second thing that I would suggest is when you're in that moment of agitation is to remind yourself, this is something Julie tells me all the time that's very helpful to me. Everybody is right from their perspective. So based upon their lived experience, their information silo, their friend group, whatever it is, their worldview that you disagree with is informed by their personal set of experiences. And had you lived, you know, their life, you would probably see the world that way they do. And so understanding that everybody is right from their own perspective helps to depersonalize it as well and just allow them their experience, allow them their opinion. You don't have to correct it. You don't have to tell them why they're wrong. You don't have to prove a point. And you certainly don't have to win an argument. I mean, if there's anything to be gleaned from these experiences, if you've had, if you have a history of them, is that that's pointless. Like you, there is no winning in this situation. But there is an opportunity to be compassionate, you know, and I think when you struggle to be in that state of neutrality, like just trying to find a way to be compassionate to these people that you love. And part of why it's so heightened is because you do care for these people, right? It's the love that is the flip side of the anger and the resentment, like all of those things are informed by each other. And so adopting this sort of wall of pleasantry and just, you know, letting it all wash over you, like a, like a waterfall and being non reactive and being neutral and being compassionate, I think is, is really the goal here. Obviously things that are easier said than achieved. And that's why it's a practice. But and this is why, you know, this is one of the reasons why meditation is such a crucial tool, mindfulness practices, breath work, all of these things that can ground you in the present moment. And fundamentally lead you to live a more non reactive life. Disappusing yourself of the idea that you can control other people, allowing them to have their experience, understanding that they're right from their perspective, trying to find some kernel of compassion and focusing on that, being non reactive and just adopting this neutral stance. It's like being a lighthouse, like we've talked about this, Adam, like just stand in your strength and, you know, emit your beam and be completely detached from whether or not anybody responds to that beam or needs it. And no matter what is going on around you, no matter how tumultuous the sea is, like you, you remain unmoved in the midst of it. That's what I kind of, I try to do in my family now as I always talk about, like finding cruising altitude. Like to me, it's like staying and cruising altitude. It doesn't mean be detached or to be, to kind of not connect. It's more like you want to keep yourself in that equanimous state. Like where you're, you're going to be the non reactive person, you're going to be the one bringing positive energy. And I think that that, like, that is the key to kind of making sure you can control the controllable. So it's the only thing you can control. What about the people, though, that like aren't worried about the conflict so much, they're worried more about their prone to people pleasing. They're prone to kind of going along with the flow to their own detriment. They know it's not good for them. They know it doesn't feel right. But they don't add a pump the brakes. They don't know how to kind of assert themselves and create that space. They don't know how to achieve cruising altitude in a big group of people. What would your advice be to them? Yeah, I mean, that's a tricky one if you're habituated to accommodate everybody out of fear that you will be marginalized or judged for standing up for yourself. That can be a pernicious trap, something I'm very familiar with as well. I think when you telescope back from that, the first piece is understanding that all of the accommodation and the people pleasing. It comes packaged with this idea or this illusion that that makes you a good person. I just want everyone to be happy and so if they want me to show up, I'm going to show up and I'm going to do all this stuff and I'm going to take the path of least resistance. On some level, there's value to that, but fundamentally, that is a betrayal of the self. You have allowed your own self to be sublimated out of this idea that if you are just accommodating enough that everyone will be okay. There is a narcissism to that on some level because fundamentally, you're still attached to this idea that you can control other people's behavior and emotions. If you're just pleasant enough, if you're just accommodating enough, then everything will be fine. Again, you have to disapuse yourself of that degree of control over other people's behavior. Ultimately, the best thing for you is to honor yourself by setting those boundaries that you need so that you can show up as your best self in those limited circumstances. It's actually a service that you're providing to everyone because if you allow yourself to be a pinball and just bounce around where everyone else wants you to go, you're going to be frazzled, you're going to be less grounded, and you are ultimately going to end up more reactive. It can be difficult to say, "Hey, you know what? I'm not going to stay at the house this year. I'm going to stay down the street in the motel or whatever." That's a pattern interrupt that may very well ruffle some feathers. I'm just using this as an example. But you then have to just allow them to be upset. I mean, you can say, "Listen, I really want to show up as my best self." I just need to do this. I'll be at all the things. Don't worry. I can't wait to see all of you guys, but I'm just going to stay down the street this time. There might be some reaction to that that you could predict or whatever, but standing your ground and just allowing them to have their reaction to that without buying into it. That can be hard, but I think you just have to do that. Then you show up, and then if you're your better self or whatever, that all gets forgotten. You've interrupted the pattern, and the next time it's easier to do those things. It's hard to overcome the people pleasing instinct, the accommodation in pulse. But understanding that that is on some level, a self-betrayal, and it is a narcissistic impulse as much as it is a communitarian one. I think understanding that makes it easier to take that leap, and you can start with something small. It doesn't have to be some big drastic thing. But I think it would also avoid making proclamations about it. I'm doing this for me. No, just quietly create those little boundaries or make the Irish exit. Just the Irish goodbye. You don't have to stay at the parties on the very end. You can be like, "I need to get back." Okay, I'll see you guys tomorrow or whatever. Just do what you need to do for your own self-care. The byproduct of that is not only a better experience for you, but a better experience of you for the people that you care about. I love it. Could I add two things? Clean up, and get in the kitchen early to cook. Both ways, you can kind of be a part of the group, and you don't have to get caught in any conversation. Well, that's the other big piece here, which is be-service-minded about it. Don't go into this. Here's what I'm going to get out of this, and they're going to finally see me for who I am, and I'm going to make sure that they understand that I need to be respected. Forget about all that. No, just go in. How can I be of service? How can I contribute? Oh, I can do the dishes. Hey, do you need help here? Yeah, and you can use that as a way to extract yourself from the tricky conversations and situations. Immune health is one of those things that most people don't really think about unless they're sick or getting sick. But the real game is promotion. Played in the daily choices you make when you're feeling just fine. And that's my approach with Peaks Daily Radiance Liposomal Vitamin C, which I've been taking as part of my morning ritual as well as part of my surgery recovery. 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I heard you on Mel Robbins podcast talking about hitting rock bottom and you said rock bottom is what you decided to be. How do you explain that? I always thought of it as kind of the place you wound up and it was really truly the end. But I know that you and I've discussed it a bit. How would you explain kind of this this gradient rock bottom the way you see it? Rock bottom is a phrase from the world of recovery and it basically means that moment when you're sick and tired of being sick and tired and you're finally ready to give up what you've been doing and try something different. And I think there is this idea that rock bottom is an objective event that is defined by external circumstances like when you get fired or you you know become homeless or name your whatever right like that it is this objective thing that happens when suddenly you wake up and you realize like you have to change your life. And that's not really what rock bottom is rock bottom is a subjective experience that is defined by this this sudden surge of willingness to do things differently than you have before. And you know you and I've talked about willingness before willingness as this sort of you know force of the universe that descends when it wants to you know it's it's not something you can just decide to have. But rock bottom is the defining aspect of rock bottom is that it it it announces the arrival of willingness that you didn't have prior. It's not a one size fits all thing it's a decision not a disaster and it's this incredible lever or launch pad for transformation because with that willingness you then have this sudden swell of energy to make changes that previously you were unwilling to so rock bottom is a moment of taking responsibility. It's a decision and it's a lever for transformation and if you think of it as an elevator as a metaphor like if your life is going in the wrong direction like your elevator is going down could be drinking it could be anything right. At any moment you can step off the elevator you don't have to go all the way to the ground wait until it like falls all the way to the bottom and hits hits the bottom right you have that opportunity to step off. But rock bottom is really you know before it hits the bottom that moment when you decide okay now is the time to step off because that elevator can always go lower like just because you hit rock bottom doesn't mean that there isn't a lower moment for you. So you see for example it's mythologized as the absolute like this is the absolute bottom and it never is you can it can always be worse right and so what you see for example in in a are you know like low bottom they call low bottom drugs like these are people that are I mean dude it got it was so bad and dark you know I mean yeah it's just like it was just yeah it was rough you know what I mean and you're like wow okay well they finally turned it around amazing and then you have teenagers who at like 17 get sober you know and where you know like their life just wasn't that calamitous they just had your own rock bottom moment where they realize like I can't live this way anymore and you know well in advance of their life going completely sideways like make that decision and and course correct so yes it is a subjective experience but fundamentally to find rock bottom is it's that moment when the pain of your circumstances exceeds the fear of finally doing something different again meaning that rock bottom is when you find willingness which gives you the power to do things you previously couldn't or wouldn't and in my own personal experience. I had much lower moments than the day that I decided to check myself into a treatment center the only difference being that that day was the day that I was suddenly willing to do what the day before I wasn't it's defined by this decision that you make this decision empowered by willingness but rock bottom we also look at it as a negative right oh my god he hit rock bottom like how terrible but these things are gifts because when you hit your subjective rock bottom and you're graced with that level of willingness to do something you otherwise you wouldn't that is this incredible lever for change and transformation and I think we all you don't have to be some like gutter drunk to have a rock bottom I think everybody in life has rock bottom moments I don't think you can escape life without them and if you're in such a moment to recognize it as a divinely inspired experience custom created for your change in transformation like it's almost something you should have reverence for because it has this potential energy to shift your life in magical ways and when you can recognize this like I'm you know this this terrible situation that I'm in and I know that I've got to make this change and now I feel like I really want to make the change like like how an awareness of that like be present that because I just know in my own experience like my various rock bottoms when I look back on there there's such gifts because they course corrected my life and set me on different trajectories that I would have never explored had I not been in those painful experiences you almost have to depersonalize it in a way that it's hard when you're when the when the volume is so loud in your head and the pain is so heavy so it's like it would be helpful to have someone kind of reminding you of that it's hard because in those like the retreat rock bottom moments you're alone in your head you know you're like at least my my experiences like you feel alone in your head and so how do you depersonalize it and turn down that volume and remember to like have reverence for this thing that is so painful at that time you know it's an interesting balance. I mean it's it's very difficult you know when you're when you are in that much pain you're paralyzed like the idea that like this is the moment where you're going to change and you're going to be all motivated and inspired is delusional right like you're you're completely hamstrung and paralyzed because it is if it truly is like your subjective rock bottom like you can't see your way out of it so the lived experience of it is very disorienting it's only in retrospect when you can actually see the merit of the whole thing of the whole enterprise because there is a hopelessness that that kind of descends upon you that is that is the flip side of the willingness I think all I can say about that is that just like hearing that like if you just hear this it instills a little bit of hope that you know there will there can be a shift and you don't have to do anything immediately another kind of like annoying AA catchphrase is like this too will pass you know it's just like when you're in it you're like you know fuck off right like I you know you don't understand my life you don't understand how difficult it is for me that's not helpful and I think in those moments it's about trying to identify the smallest thing that you can do in that moment to leverage that slight degree of willingness to move your life in a little bit of a different direction it can be the tiniest thing but you have to like plant those seeds and sow them and ultimately over time with a great degree of patience that's really what moves the needle I love it so rock bottom is really just like the part of the crag or you get the foothold and you can keep climbing versus like the actual bottom of the rock wall it does it can be the bottom of the rock wall but maybe you arrest the slide earlier and you can you can start climbing again if you're in pain and you're wondering whether this is your rock bottom you can make the decision that it is because I think it's easy to say well it could be worse like my friend over here like he lost everything and his wife let you know but there's always somebody who is an example of why like whatever you're doing is not that bad you know like I can keep doing it like I didn't lose my job or I didn't you know like they haven't repossessed my car or whatever it is so that can be an excuse to keep you know perpetuating the bad behavior but if you know like I think in our heart of hearts we all know when we're off track and we make these excuses these rationalizations to give a give ourselves permission to keep doing the thing we know that we should be doing it anymore and so that's where the decision part of rock bottom comes in if you are in pain and you have that spidey sense that you're off track you don't have to stay on the elevator and keep going down until you're at that lower level where your friend you know is or whatever you can get off and so while willingness can come in these these lightning bolt bursts where you're suddenly have this you suddenly have this like swell of energy that you didn't have before I think to some degree or another we always have a small amount of willingness so it's about identifying the willingness that you have and how to put that into action to make a different choice in those moments I like it We are our own worst enemies aren't we? 100% Yeah Just remember that This is the human condition Is it not? We are yes We have great degree of clarity when it comes to other people's behavior and what they should be doing differently and when it comes to ourselves we are just unbelievably myopic We see almost nothing It's interesting like yeah almost everyone's an unreliable witness Almost everyone You know very much so But you know what happens though when we're in these moments even if there's willingness when we're dealing we're in the storm is that often we're ashamed right? We're ashamed of how we got there we're ashamed of where we are We are the humiliation is such that when we even look in the mirror I'm speaking personally I remember looking in the mirror and seeing not seeing something that was positive Like I remember seeing someone who was going to be bereft forever You know And a lot of that was shame and I know how toxic it is How do you recommend people kind of turn the dial down on the shame? You know like how does how do you get to the point where willingness is louder than the shame? Yeah That's a great question I mean I think that is the common experience right? So embarrassed we're so ashamed of our behavior and it's just easier and better to keep it all quiet and to ourselves Obviously that keeps us stuck in the problem and divorced from the solution These are all socially constructed ideas though like the shame and the embarrassment are a function of social constructs That threatened our our standing within our group right you know within our within our community within our village Right and if people if people really knew like what I was like like I would get exiled right so I can't tell anyone And I'm going to try to figure this out you know by myself quietly or I'll just continue to hide from everybody But all of these things are at cross purposes with the solution And I think the the way forward here is to understand that shame can't survive the light Like shame thrives in darkness like it wants you isolated and alone It wants that secret locked up because once it's exposed shame can't it can't withstand sunlight Right and as scary as it can be to raise your hand and ask for help or find somebody to talk to that really is the solution to disabuse you of the shame and the embarrassment that keeps you rooted in the problem And so my suggestion is to find somebody that you trust that you can talk to that can be a therapist it can be you know a grandfather or an uncle it can be you know it could be a stranger You know it could be a 12 step meeting it can there's many many different you know modalities and avenues to explore with that but I think you have got to find somebody that you can communicate with and that you can open up to honestly And that's the first piece like there is a catharsis when you finally say out loud this thing that you're afraid to say to another person and you have that experience of Of thinking that that person is going to shun you or judge you and then when they accept you or they respond to what you share with them with compassion that is a first step towards Emerging out of the shame spiral that keeps you stuck in the problem and once you have a confidant then you have an accountability partner and you can begin the process of constructing a path You know out of that out of that hole that you've dug for yourself I like that that's that's good I have so many examples of this you know we almost at our house were closed on I've had cars repossessed I've had my credit Distra you know like financially you know so many things to be embarrassed about and ashamed about as a as a grown-ass man And in the addiction recovery context like you know countless examples of this I mean I remember relapsing in Hawaii after I think I had like 13 years of sobriety at the time It was after ultra man 2011 didn't go well and I kind of made ultra endurance my higher power and I had a slip and I'm so you know Rot with to this day like it's still mortifying to me you know and in the moment of that experience the shame was like so overwhelming but I had enough experience and sobriety to know That I had to do what my friend Scotty G says you do in these situations which is if you're gonna eat crow like eat it hot you know like meaning if you know you got to deal with shit right away And you know thanks to my family and Tyler who's here today like I was in an a meeting the same day as the relapse that evening and I had to pick up the phone and call my people in recovery and tell them exactly that what had happened Which was it you know a very ego deflating thing to do is somebody who was sort of considered himself like a somebody with a lot of experience and sobriety who could like go to the rooms and you know always knew the right thing to say And ultimately all of this made you know my program all the more stronger because I needed that ego deflation and I needed that reminder that there is no cruise control and I taken my foot off the gas on my program and I had to pay that price That was a life lesson that I needed to learn and ultimately one of great value but I was only able to course correct because I was willing to pick up the phone and deal with the shame in the shame emotions right by like just exposing them to the light is quickly as I could So I think that would be you know one example of that I mean that was all heightened by the fact that I already turned in my manuscript for finding ultra which was this story like addiction recovery And I couldn't make any changes to it and here I had you know and then here I relapsed you know it's like so it was like I was so completely just laid out from that experience So an enemy would do to you yeah like what is that called Oppo Oppo yeah like opposition researchers Yeah these are not easy things to do you know I don't want to minimize how the degree of difficulty that they that they present and so that's why I'm always trying to boil things down to like what is the smallest kind of thing that you are willing to do and figuring out how to build upon on those tiny little actions you know it's funny because like there you do looking back on on going through something horrible you do remember like those little snippets those little moments where you do see clearly what's happening and you don't just keep tumbling forward but then you often do I remember like one one time when one of my worst moments it was like I was going through divorce I felt horrible and I got pulled my buddy was driving me home and we pulled off the freeway this is like you think there's always someone worse off we pull off the freeway and there's a guy pan handling like a guys wasted who knows on what high or drunk and he's like pan handling and he kind of looks at me sees me and he peers into me and he goes it'll be okay bro that's what I knew I wasn't carrying it well I was not carrying this divorce well but like that moment didn't it didn't shift anything for me you know but it could have been it could have been one of those moments where you're like wait a second you know it's not as bad as I think it is but it didn't really do it but like it's just a one to share one of my rock bottom I guess it wasn't rock bottom I still the tumble a little bit but yeah I mean when I think of my you know kind of descents into darkness over the years the rock bottom moments are not the darkest most dire moment right you know I like speaking of divorce like I had a couple of years that ended on the honeymoon like and then I had to come back and like deal with the aftermath of that like I didn't want to tell I didn't I was so deep and then I and that was before I got sober and I had to continue drinking for I can't remember how long and like six or eight months or whatever because it was I was so emotionally debilitated by that that there was no even though that was really like the nadir of like my career in alcoholism I had to continue to drink until I had gotten over the immediate aftermath of that before I could kind of contend with the problem that created it in the first place well speaking of kind of getting better and kind of building back is we're almost to the point where resolutions are being hatched maybe they're already being hatched and so the question this this third question is kind of around you know how do you think about New Year's resolutions what are some of the tools that you use kind of going into a New Year and if you have any goals for 2026 yeah I have evolved my thinking on this I mean I'm certainly somebody who believes in setting goals and having a strategic approach for achieving them I've moved my life forward in many ways by dent of this process but the older I get the less interested I am in setting like specific goals and focusing my life on achieving them and I'm more into kind of the being of it all you know like in the allowing and letting the universe kind of direct me you know not that I've transcended the need to set goals and work towards them but I think I hold goals a little bit more loosely and I'm more focused on direction over goals like I think you can have goals work towards them either you achieve them or you don't but the more important piece in all of that is whether or not you are on a trajectory or on a direction so whether or not you achieve that goal you maintain that trajectory like you you've set a course for your life and you're kind of un unaffected as to whether the goals along the way are satisfied or not because you're unwavering in that in that kind of like focus on the direction of your life and I think part of that comes with age and experience but I've built my life on the shoulder of setting goals and achieving that but I think it's a worthy exercise at this time of year specifically to really reflect deeply on what you want for your life in the coming year and maybe in the coming decade because as I've said many times before I think we're all better off thinking of our lives in decades over the years I think we wildly overestimate what we can achieve in a year and underestimate what we can achieve in a decade and that's part of why things like New Year's resolutions trip us up because we have an impatient unrealistic perspective on what we can achieve in a certain period of time and we get frustrated when we don't see immediate progress and we allow the externalities of all of that to derail us from just maintaining like I said before like a certain direction goals are important you can improve what you don't measure and if you're going to set a goal you should use that smart acronym meaning that they should be specific measurable achievable relevant and time bound that's the way to really establish a goal and then work backwards from that time bound moment achieving it to create all the steps that you're going to need to travel in order to get there those are all good things but I think what most people don't do is reflect deeply enough on the goal that they're setting for themselves I think we set goals reflexively I want to lose a little weight I want to run a marathon or oh I want I want to make this amount of money or whatever it is like whether those are impulsed by the culture or our friend group I don't know that we spend enough time doing the interior work to try to really uncover the best goal for ourselves and that's really a function of how invested you are in having an interior life right so that comes with Asian experience also and there's nothing wrong with setting a reflex of goal and achieving it because any time you achieve a goal you're going to engender more self esteem for yourself and that's going to empower you to set more ambitious goals and there's a self perpetuating aspect to all of this but I think a lot of people set the wrong goals for themselves and then when they peter out they feel bad about themselves without really understanding that maybe it wasn't the right goal for them to set for themselves in the first part so think spend some time thinking about the values that are most important to you and how this goal that you're contemplating relates to that value because the best goals are ones that are intrinsically motivated obviously and to the extent that your goal is being impulsed by something extrinsic that's going to make it easier to derail when life doesn't exactly line up for you to do the things that you need to do to achieve it. Or if you achieve it and then afterwards you feel like wait I don't feel any different. Yeah exactly. If you think this goal especially if it's a material goal is going to heal that inner child or like fill that void in your soul like you're going to quickly realize when you achieve it that it doesn't and so yeah that can precipitate an existential crisis. Next thing you know you wake up at rock bottom. We don't want that but like setting goals are good you know resolutions are fine. Everyone I think it's something like 80 or 85% of people abandon them by mid February. And so why is that? Well is it the wrong goal? Is it that they were overly ambitious? Is it that it really wasn't tied enough to their values to make it meaningful enough such that when there's friction in life like you can't show up for it. And there's so many things that play into this. So that's why again like I'm always coming back to direction like what is the direction you want your life to go on. And what are the things that you can be doing every single day that are moving your life on that trajectory. That to me is much more important and it goes back to thinking about your life in decades rather than years. If I don't lose this much weight by this time where I can't blah blah blah. These things become less important when you're like yeah well I didn't like exactly do all the things that I thought that I could in the first six months. But like I'm on this path you know and every day like everything in my life took at least a decade you know before it started to bear any kind of fruit. And you know it takes a certain resilience to play the long game. But if your values are aligned with whatever that trajectory is then it just becomes who you are. And it's less about this burdensome thing that you're always having to move mountains to make time for. Yeah I like that it's like because first of all the years and arbitrary concept anyway right it's kind of an abstraction. So then if the year doesn't really matter and the goal is actually you actually just want to be better. You want to get better you want to learn more you want to you want to love your life more. That's basically what we're talking about because goals are you're you're just hurtling yourself against the modern world. It's like this abstraction you're just trying to I'm I want to achieve this goal because you know I want to see if I can do it. It's like an experiment. And that's fine that's good there's value in that but sometimes if it's like I'm going to achieve this goal. You're putting blinders on because every time you you decide to pursue a goal you're you're saying yes to one thing and you're saying no to other things. Right like you you have to say no to a lot of stuff to achieve a goal right yeah and so. What can happen is that you're you're saying no to things that maybe you actually should say yes to and I think when you have those blinders on. You're so focused that sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees and the older that I get it's sort of like what happens when. You hold your goals a little bit more loosely so that you can pivot when needed because sometimes I know that in my life like I've started out on a goal and then I'm like oh that's not really what this is about. I think what I need to be doing is like going over here because I'm feeling this way or you know the world is kind of showing up for me. In this way that I didn't think that I really want you know like I didn't really think that my life was going to go this way but like this seems to be where there's a lot of energy right now maybe I should pay attention to that yeah. And if you're so focused on your goal you're going to miss that and a lot of these these great things that I've experienced in my life are because. I had the awareness to allow myself to hold on to the goal a little bit loose enough so that I could be aware of that and like you know pivot or move make these little micro adjustments in my life to move in different directions and that's about. You know being present in your life like having you know the tool of awareness to you know read the energy of the room read your internal energy pay attention to you know what's working and what's not because if you're pursuing a goal and you're just. It's like Matthew McConaughey and his green lights right like where the green lights like when you're aware of where the green lights are and you're like I'm going to go over here because everything's flowing you know over here. Even if it doesn't feel like that's where you should be going maybe you just don't know yet that that's the better direction for your life and so I think acclimating yourself around the green lights. Is anathema to holding on or clutching on to goals because you said you were going to do it you know what I mean like so it is this dichotomy it's a weird kind of dualism right and yeah kind of thing when it comes to goals. Yeah no I like that though like this idea that maybe the goal is to be more present maybe that's your resolution. I mean it is it isn't a lot of ways it's like well it gets into you know it's like okay if I'm going to like if I need to make some changes if I really want to like. Up level my life. What are we really doing here you know I mean like oh I can set a goal and achieve it but like honestly. All the growth in my life that is waiting for me out there is a function of of moving towards the things that I'm most avoiding you know what I mean like avoidance is really the signal. That is telling you like where your energy should be directed but the thing about avoidance is we avoid it that's you know we don't know I'm not going over there I'm going to go over here like we can set goals. That everyone will celebrate that are just elaborate roses to avoid the thing that we actually should be looking at right and so. To your point about presence like if there is a goal like well how can I be more present in my life if I'm more present then I'm more aware of the things that I'm avoiding and if I'm present enough those things that I recoil from and avoid. Become less threatening and I have the capacity to move towards them in a way that otherwise I I wouldn't I think and so yeah it's almost an anti goal like. If I'm just present you're kind of letting go of everything right sort of like what if there is no goal and I'm just present with my life and I'm riding the waves of energy and letting life you know kind of direct me. So the holidays are awesome I think we can all agree on that but you know not without their irresistible temptations cookies everywhere pie at every gathering the sugary fruit thing you're on made and listen you know I'm not immune. But either is your gut meaning your microbiome is absolutely paying attention to what's going on all of which is why AG1 matters during this extended two months stretch you need something to anchor you and one scoop of AG1 consolidates your multivitamin your superfood your antioxidants this daily health drink takes 30 seconds easy peasy. And the next gen formula is clinically shown to fill nutrient gaps which is huge when you're diagnosed sideways for a handful of weeks here and there I keep all four flavors around original citrus berry and tropical cold water person in the morning just one baseline thing locked in before everything gets away from me. And right now AG1 has their best offer ever at drink AG1.com slash rich roll you get a welcome kit a flavor sampler plus $126 in free gifts at drink AG1.com slash rich roll. I want you to pause for a moment because I want to tell you about my friend RJ now you might know this guy as the founder and CEO of Rivian he's certainly that but he's really so much more he's one of those rare people. Who actually walks the walk I've watched him over many years and I know him to be this incredibly deeply committed person committed to preserving wild spaces while also inspiring people to explore responsibly. And that's basically Rivian in a nutshell their mission keep the world adventurous forever comes from this understanding that adventure and a healthy planet these are not separate things they're the same thing. Here's what gets me every generation deserves wild places to roam to climb higher to run farther to be changed by the journey. But obviously that's only possible if we're not destroying those places in the process of getting there so yeah Rivian builds electric vehicles but really they're building something bigger. Momentum toward a future where exploration does not come at the expense of nature but actually inspires us to protect it. It's like why create the ultimate adventure vehicle if we're not protecting the adventures themselves and that's why I'm so proud to align forces in partnership with Rivian. This isn't just about transportation it's about building a world worth exploring for our kids for their kids and for generations to come. I remember like probably the best resolution I ever came up with for myself was I'd kind of gotten out of like my rhythm with nature and I think it was January 1st. I was in coming out of that same divorce part I think it wasn't long after that that confrontation on the side of the highway but I think it was actually was before that it was like several years before that I was coming out of a different breakup and I was like in this horrible space. And I decided I just need to go in the ocean every day and I hadn't been in the ocean in ages this is before my love of the ocean swimming system and like end of 2004 beginning 2005 I hadn't been in the ocean much. And so certainly not in California and so I would just walk from my apartment every morning and jump in and that was the thing starting January 1st. I wanted to do it every day for I think it was 40 days to see if I could do it and that what that ended up doing is sparking my entire journey as an ocean person. And I wasn't the goal the goal was never to become a surfboard open water swimmer or free diver any of that the goal was to be in touch with nature that was like my resolution. And looking back is probably the most powerful thing I ever did and yeah interesting. Yeah I have my version of that like all of the best things that I've done in my life are not the function of having set a goal to achieve it. You know like my whole career and ultra endurance began similarly like you know what I just I just want to do things that make my body feel good. You know what I'm I know there's a lot to do but I'm going to no matter what like I'm going to go swim or I'm going to like go up on this trail in the morning and feel what that feels like there was no goal. It was just a decision to you know do this thing that I felt compelled to do that made me feel good and that set in motion all these other things and the podcast is just like. Hey wouldn't be cool to like I was just curious like let's let's have a conversation let see what happens and everything I came from it wasn't like I'm going to start a podcast and here's how we're going to launch it and in five years this is what it's going to be no there's none of that. Yeah there's no there was no goal setting to any of this I didn't set a goal to like right finding ultra it happened it unfolded naturally out of an act of service I've told the story before but like the best things in life are like. Byproducts of being service-minded and pursuing life with curiosity and so I think it's important to contextualize these goals that we set in these resolutions you know within that framework like if there's anything it's like be curious about your life give yourself permission to do the things to bring you joy. You know reserve judgment and like just try new things like that's a very non you know acronym smart you know goal but like I think it's quite valorous to you know adopt that as a general sort of disposition or an ambition for for how to think about your energy. So 2026 what are your goals so like I said like being present actually you know it's like there are these amorphous ambitions like how can I be more present in my life how can I be more service-minded how can I love more unconditionally but I think. The reason for all of those is the impulse behind all of that is like how can I. Enjoy this life that I worked hard to construct more you mean because I'm always caught up in what's the next thing or overwhelmed or there's too much to do or. I lose the joy amidst all the responsibility of it and it's like it's not this these are the good times like this is it's not going to get any better than this like it's happening now like I need to find better ways to really. Enjoy and be happy you know in this incredible you know privileged situation that I found myself in so that's the big one but within that. I still have like goals and projects you know I'm working on projects I've things that I want to do in all of that like at the same time so. I've been thinking about my life in these six month chunks. So may eight I had my back surgery and so from May to November that six month period I've just been completely laid out I can barely work I couldn't do anything. In terms of exercise all I could do is walk. And now from this past November until May this next six month period I have the green light to resume a modest exercise routine so this six month period I want to focus on. You know returning to a base level of fitness like sort of getting back not back to where I was but just rebuilding my body right and also completing this book that I've been working on and that will bring me to may which is the one year anniversary of the surgery. And then from May to November I have six months the next six month period of time and I thought well what's in November of next year oh the New York City Marathon wouldn't be cool to toe the line at that race so. From this upcoming May to November I'm going to attempt to return to some relationship with running because I haven't been able to run in many years with the goal of just being able to participate in the New York City Marathon so it's not like I'm going to go run the mo app 240 like I just want to experience the ability to run pain free and enjoy it and. You know be a runner among runners the many many thousands at the New York City Marathon next year so that's that's a that's a sort of like big you know that's a big and a pretty practical like it's not like that crazy but given that you know my surgeon it was sort of like yeah I don't think you're going to be running anymore like he was pretty he was not you know exactly encouraging when I asked him like do you think I'll run again like he basically said you know there's certain things in your life you've got to retire and he kind of bluntly let that hang in there. And so I've been sitting with that and I'm like well we'll see about that you know not that I need to go recapture some glories and ultra endurance athlete but I would like to be able to run again pain free and be able to just do it for the joy of it and for no other reason. Well I remember I just saw your recent story on the bike I was already inspired like this idea that New York City Marathons on your radar is very cool well you know it could be a Tommy rift situation where you know I'm just going to walk it you know I don't know what's going to happen you know I'm hopeful that I'll be able to be able to run it but you know time will tell. Okay so we're talking about this is two guys that have kind of been through a lot and accomplished some things but like there's young guys out there young women who are being fed a line about hustle you got a hustle everything you got a sacrifice you got to make some sacrifices to get where you want to get you know you need to shoot for something great you need to make your mark and the only way to do that is is to work hard and start to eliminate some distractions and there's value to that advice and they're getting it from all sides now it's not just from the parents. Or from coaches is literally every time they turn on a screen they're getting some version of it because it's kind of gained by the algorithm you know acknowledging that that's a thing how would you then kind of advise folks to kind of also incorporate some what you're talking about with their goals. Yeah I mean I'm up to minds on this I mean listen you're the guy who wrote the Goggins books you know like there is value in hard work like I have worked very hard to achieve the things that I've achieved in my life and I'm very happy. And I'm very good at compartmentalizing aspects of my life and enduring a fair degree of of suffering to achieve the things that I want to achieve and I don't think there's a real shortcut to that and if you aspire to do something great in the world and you know make your stamp sacrifices involved like there isn't an easy path like you will have to say things and you will have to be pretty regimented about how you live your life like that is just a fact and there's no. There's no way around that honestly you know and I say that as somebody who like when I was in high school I woke up at like 4 30 every day to go to some practice like I've been doing this for a very long time and playing this long game and even within all of that all of the fruits of my labor you know took decades to emerge. And so I think the message that I want to convey is that within this you have to find a way to make it sustainable within the construct of the busy modern life and it can't intrude too heavily or threat upon the other values in your life that are important because if they do it will end up moving you in a direction away from what's really important in your life or it will just be unsustainable and you'll end up abandoning it so when you open up your phone there's no shortage of like hustle porn videos and if you're a young person and you see that it either inspires you or it makes you feel guilty and bad about yourself and I would imagine that most people have that experience of feeling bad about themselves because they can't possibly live up to the insane you know hustle porn culture that they're constantly being inundated with and so that's the flip side of this like I think that that is doing damage to people making them feel like if they're not so regimented you know down to the like first of all this is illusion these people or making these videos are not living this way you know with the exception of maybe you have David Goggins you know it's like nobody else is actually doing this and so first understand that you are consuming a fictitious world so these are unreliable narrators. First of all not everyone's wired for that kind of some people like like David's wired for what you know and you can benefit from adopting some of those principles into your life but they don't have to monopolize everything and when they do monopolize everything they end up blinding you to the other aspects of life that are important and that you need in order to live a fulfilling you know self actualized life. So the important thing is finding the thing that's meaningful to you that lights you up that you have curiosity around and making a decision to invest your time and your energy around that and holding on to your timelines loosely or relinquishing them all together again it goes back to this idea of direction like just be on a direction you don't have to set these violent goals and like punish yourself if you can't live up to them or create some kind of morning routine or daily regimen that is just super human and impossible to sustain for longer than 10 days without like falling off the wagon right so. What can you devote yourself to that gets you excited when you wake up in the morning obviously if it animates you it's easier to stay in it and stay connected to the direction that you're on and not everybody you know has that and I think that's another thing that does. People of violence like well I don't have a passion or like I don't have that thing that I'm excited to wake up in the morning and go after and like chase if you don't that's the thing that you feel guilty about but. The only way to find that is by engaging with your curiosity and I think there's some tools that we could talk about that might be helpful to people who are like well I don't know what my goal should be or I don't know what gives myself my life meaning or I feel like I don't have purpose. It all goes back to investing in your relationship with yourself like having a healthy dialogue with. You know your interior right and you know we can talk for hours about meditation and mindfulness practices and the like but even just physical exercise anything that connects you to your body and give you. The time in the space for your unconscious mind to wander where you can reflect but I think the real the sort of principle and. Most helpful tool that I have found for creating clarity amidst this type of confusion is the practice of morning pages and this is something I actually Tim Ferris tweeted about it the other day saying like if there's one thing you can do like morning pages and you just like. Vomiting you know three pages every morning for a couple minutes can change your life and I retweeted it instead I concur and you know a lot of people kind of. Re-shared that and I think it's really true like I started this practice of morning pages back in 1999 when I read Julia can Julia Cameron's book the artist way which is a. A primer on recovering your innate creativity and it's this practice of every morning sitting down and writing three pages not with any agenda but really just to cut through the cobwebs and just. Allow yourself to write whatever the pen wants to write you know without editing yourself and it becomes this unlock. Where you start to see patterns in your behavior you start to. Allow your unconscious mind to spill out onto the page and all of these are like data points that very subtly and over a long period of time. You know create a little bit more clarity about what's important to you what you care about and the decisions that you should be making the things that you're avoiding right we're talking about like all the growth is on the other side of the things that we're avoiding. This practice has just been you know absolutely crucial and central and and everything that I've been able to do in my life and so. If you are in that confused space I don't know what my goal is I don't know we know I don't know where to begin with all of this stuff like that's where do you begin. Yeah the only thing I would say is that something you've already said just to bring back and highlight is that if you don't have a passion you do have values. And you know if you if you read David's books everything he's doing is values based and that's the first thing you said is make sure that your direction is empowered or guided by your values. And so if you don't have a passion you don't know what you want to do I was in that space you know you think of your values first. And the great thing about David's message is it's really one of personal responsibility and discipline and these are just things that most people lack you know they lack in huge amounts I think and we can all benefit from taking a little bit more responsibility for for our lives and having a little bit more discipline especially in this distracted world where. It's just so easy to you know fall into this lullaby of scrolling and Netflix where everything around you is oriented around creating comfort yeah that's right. So we talked about a lot of different things can you can we boil it down to a checklist for people who are interested in and kind of getting there with their goals their direction what what are kind of like four or five things that people can do. So in terms of getting clarity on your goals and really being more certain about the validity of this being the thing you're going to invest all this time and energy into. Self-care is really where it begins and ends you have to be moving your body you got to be exercising you got to be sleeping well you have to be nourishing your body you have to be spending time in nature you have to be with your community of friends who are also going to act as accountability partners. And you got to get you know get that pen to paper and and start with that morning pages practice do not do it on the computer this is not you know you're not dictating this or any you have to literally get a pen in journal and write it out long hand so. As boring and as mundane as all of those you know sort of things sound like that that's really what it's about and I think being patient you know this idea that you're going to get struck by lightning and have this epiphany or you're going to have some degree of certainty also is. This is something that I think we allow to do ourselves of violence is like what doctor Alan Langer always says like we ruminate on these decisions and what we need to do is develop a reflex to action instead of worrying about whether you're making the right decision just make the decision right like you have to like. Change is an action based affair right so if you want to make a change you have to make these changes and you have to do them decisively and we get into this. Mental you know kind of masturbation around well should I do this or shouldn't I do that or yeah but if I do that I don't have the right shoes so I'm going to have to research that and all of these are impediments to action that prevent us from just engaging with change in a tactile and fundamental way. That is moving our lives forward incrementally every single day so release the timelines invest in your curiosity get eight hours of sleep try to eat healthy foods enjoy your friendships and get off the phone you know this is like dumb shit right you know but like. We all struggle with these things none of us is doing it perfect and give yourself the grace to be imperfect within the construct of like giving yourself space to make these changes. I had a whole phone hygiene thing going and it kind of went out the window with book promotion yeah now I'm yeah like let me let me like provide the the seamless transition from answering these three questions into getting to talk about your your your new novel yeah we're entering into the new year and you have toiled diligently for a long time to give birth to this creative project which is a testament to you having set a goal that you were going to write this novel and put it out into the world so congratulations for that is no small achievement I can't imagine writing a novel. This I had to run for a lot of red lights it is there's a lot of you would like you're right here and I'm giving you a green light you know I mean you have enough green lights to be here right yeah it's like when do you heed the red lights and when do you ignore them you know I mean so this has been a journey of resilience on your part because there were a lot of roadblocks and plenty of people saying don't do this or you shouldn't do this or you know we're not interested in what you're doing and you could read that like. Well they're right you know maybe I shouldn't be doing this and something inside of you. So you know what so before we get into the book like what you know what has that process been of overcoming those obstacles and finding the resilience to you know push through and achieve this goal for yourself. Oh man it's it's a well thank you for the compliments it was it was it was a lot harder than non-fiction I can say you know that's what I can say but I think there's a couple like the first red lights that I was dealing with were in my head so they weren't really red lights they were like the doubt can you do it so for a couple of years it was like this sucks this sucks you suck this sucks. That's that that was like many hours a day that I was living in that space it's not a real nice space to live but it is not the greatest head space to be in when you're trying to be creative. Right so you learn is you have to it's not like it's constant but it comes up right and sometimes it it's like in the first couple drafts things aren't good and so you do need to get like it's knowing I think a couple things I had abandoned a novel novel before I'd completed a manuscript before too. So I had had experience listening to the doubt and getting off something that was a good project so I knew that and so it was easier to run those red lights because I knew they weren't really red lights they were just. It was just myself trying to stop this whatever this was which was kind of the complete takeover of my body and soul of a story that I really felt like there was kind of coming through me I could feel it I could see it now from a distance that I thought it was me coming up with this idea but in actuality it's this idea coming through me you know it's kind of like how Elizabeth Gilbert and patch it had that thing in big magic where Elizabeth Gilbert had an idea. And didn't pursue it or pursue it lightly and then gave up and then and page wrote a book about the same idea years later and so there's actually a story just heard that's kind of similar to that but to answer your question I was getting a lot of nose right away and that continued for years and years but but there were also some green lights and the green lights were coming from early readers from early readers of the manuscript but they were also coming from the world at large. Like there's a there's a one-legged crow in this book when I thought I divine the one like a crow on the page I never seen one before but then we moved house we're still in the middle I was still middle of writing the the book I wasn't even finished with it yet we're an even man full manuscript form yet and April saw one like a crow on our block and next you know the one like a crow is in our backyard every day for like a year and so that was all happening while you're looking for a. You're looking for a publisher for this book and we were going through all those red you getting those red lights but knowing that like this one like a crow this ambassador from the crow community was in our backyard every day it made it almost impossible to to stop at those red lights because like and maybe it's like delusion and maybe it's all quicksotic and maybe it's just me fleeing myself against the world as like a goal oriented person trying to see if this experiment is worth anything. But I couldn't stop because I knew like to me it's like there had to be some reason that this was happening and that's just one story with all of this and so. I was just driven to tell something that's different and like if you look at every every book out there 99% of them are about human beings having a human experience in society or trying to society is keeping them down nation states relationships and there's a lot of that in here to the search for identity but the difference with this book is is it the search for identity doesn't stop at the human level. The search for identity goes to the nature level and I feel like what's powerful about that is that there's so much unity in that and so I was trying to tell a story that is first of all entertaining you can it's bit of an escape it takes place in 2005 it's a real story about a tiger in the suburbs of LA it really happened I really covered it but it also is an opportunity to kind of see your place in the world a little bit differently and so that's kind of what I was after and I feel like I achieved it and so having written something that I knew was good and getting some green lights that were kind of almost cosmic I couldn't I couldn't stop at the red lights. Yeah, the idea of of discerning the difference between what is truly a red light and what is like your internal self sabotaging mechanism or your excuse maker. Yeah, you know what I mean like and and that becomes like tricky it is tricky. Yeah, I mean I had had experience though with that self sabotager that that doubt I knew how to quiet doubt I knew how to not listen to it and and that's part of the job of the professional writer and I think Stephen Pressfield talks about this that's part of the job is to turn down the volume on the doubt and tune into the job of the day and the job of the day is either putting words on the page or just try to get this character like going over the pages to make sure this character arc is right and if you don't know what you're doing for the job of the day that leaves a lot of space for doubt. So part of the job is to zero in and that just comes with experience I mean you know I've been at this in some form for 20 years now. So it's like I had and when I started writing it would have been 15 years but still that's a lot of time and I've had enough success in that period of time to know my way around it. At the same time every time you start a book it's totally new and so you never know completely can I do this one you know so it's also terrifying at the same time but like if you have this toolkit you have a process you trust you like the process. Even the days that are hard you'll still do it the next day and I think that just comes with experience and the habits you know yeah. Well here we are set code says the job of the creator isn't just to create it's to create and then ship yes and so here we are on Monday tomorrow is the official pub day right. December 2nd American tiger available everywhere we showed the poster of the last roll on beautiful cover and it's basically the story of this motherless nine year old girl who sees a tiger yes outside of school bus no one believes her and then you know sort of then there's this journey that ensues from that that you know is all the things that you said that you mentioned you know about our connection with nature and and you know what does it mean to be in the modern world and this. Idea that we are separate from yeah all of these energies and forces right this idea that we are a part from rather than a part of nature which is you know like. Nature's always here you know like we think of it like over we're abusing mother nature no mother nature is always underneath and it's coming up through the cracks in the concrete and it's all around us and so. That's part of it you know you think you tell the story of a of a tiger roaming around see me Valley this like I said a true story that happened and people think of it as jaws like and that's what people like first want right want the story of this tiger killing people can be a murder to be a true crime. That's right but this one you hit him with like this kind of you know Buddhist well it's more like you know what it's like it's like a different spielberg movie. You know the child with the on wonder and that the adults believe the kid exactly right exactly right and her father single dad is the game warden who is ends up being tasked with like figuring out is is she telling the truth or not because she has a you know she tells stories and this is not Jurassic Park this is different from. I was thinking more like it's it yeah it's it yeah yeah that's what it is it's really the story of of J turn and bell turn the nine year old girl and J the father and it's really kind of a father daughter story as as he's dealing he's a stoic game warden who has an ethos has value system that drives his life and and drives her life at the same time because she wants to be like him. But then they have secrets you know like J's is grieving something and can't bear to talk about it and and that impacts Bell's knowledge of her mother and who she was and that's what kind of drives her lies in the first place is trying to figure out you know who am I. And so it's her quest for identity and his quest to keep keep keep the lid on the on all the pain and that becomes the driving force for it but at the same time it's like it's also just a story of like can you imagine having this parcosious nine year old daughter I mean and nine is like this crazy age right you even you you raise two daughters are raising like your your youngest is still in high school. I mean what was their nine year old year like do you remember that well I mean yeah that's that's a great age you know that's the waning years of innocence you know where there's a sweetness you know and a and a and a closeness you know that I that I remember that quickly evaporates when you know with the onset of puberty. Yes you know I think dad's and daughters is a very interesting dynamic relationship and yeah I have experience with it I have a 18 year old daughter in a and a 21 year old daughter soon to be 22 and they are roller coaster rides you know there's nothing like the bond that a dad has with the young daughter like at that age like the sweetness you know there's just something really special about that. And then it goes haywire for a handful of years and then it starts to come back around and I think what makes it interesting is the dad doesn't quite understand the young female animal you know and they they're sort of sniffing around each other and curious about each other but they fundamentally don't understand each other you know I mean it creates this. Fascination because both of them are yearning for closeness but they have different languages and they have different kind of constitutional dispositions that sometimes are a mismatch for each other which creates a fraught you know kind of confusing. The relationship in which which their each party is trying to figure out like how can I get closer to this person but signals are easily you know misinterpreted you know I mean so it's like for example just like you know like I have an 18 year old and I spent the day in the car with her yesterday and just trying to find ways of like points of connection like how to get how to like communicate and and have this open you know kind of channel an intimate you know kind of level of communication. Is is challenging you know what I mean and you just get these glimpses every once in a while where there's an opening and you're like oh this is the best you know and then they go away and you know they it it it goes through different stages of life also it's a special kind of relationship I think yeah but here's the main question that I have for you about this book. It's important one okay turn it upside down yes and as you will see on the back there there is a blur by me and my question is why is my blurb third and at the bottom. I didn't have anything to do with this right what do you mean it's a self published book right did you not are you were you not involved in every decision. April April overseas everything done for you. You marginalized me no no I've got this Gilbert and you that's like the perfect the perfect book ends yeah well congratulations on I'm excited so you can get it on Amazon is it in are you going to have it in bookstores. Yeah you know it's it's a pain in porch and not in yeah strip Texas. Yeah diesel here right what I mean you can get it you know it's going to be at heritage goods and supply as well. In California but any bookstore you want can get it so all you have to do if you want if you want your bookstore to carry it is just call them an order it from the bookstore they'll get it in but if you want it in your favorite bookstore the best way to and if you want to get it from them it best to call an order it but you can also order it obviously Amazon there's an audible coming yes we've been we recorded you recorded here a voicing chain that's right Jason Camillo at the recording engineer on that and he and I've been working on it for for a while now and so I'm the narrator of it and so that'll be fun that comes out in January most likely and if you look in the acknowledgements if you get the book you'll notice that not just ritual but the ritual podcast community is is thanked in it and because I can't the only reason I'm able to do this at all is because of this connection it's because of being a part of this community and you know it'd be interesting to see how far we can launch beautiful good stories positive stories into the world and so that's what you know you've done for me already and so I guess that's my only invitation is for us to kind of be in this together because the only way this thing surfaces to the top of the pile is if the people who know who I am and care about the work I've done are involved in that and you've been involved in that so I want to thank you and thank this community because it's really been amazing thanks man well all right so everybody get off your butt order this book it's a great Christmas gift you got your gift sorted we're supporting Skolnick and like you said we're in it together and speaking of the community support we forgot to talk about these hats that we have here so these baseball hats were created by a fan of the show Peter Peter G we can't like I'm trying to read his last name on this beautiful card that he sent I think he's I think it's given but either way Peter thank you for these as you can see it's got a a scuba mask and the and the ritual podcast logo right next to it so this is the official roll on baseball hats which is pretty clever and appreciated thank you for and the shirt that I'm wearing was a gift from John Price a really in psychiatrist to add on the show recently and you can see it's got these hermit crabs on which is a symbol that he that he talks about a lot as like you know the the man has to have to you know basically shed his shell and grow a new one you know when you grow you need to expand your show yeah so anyway thank you for that John thanks Peter for the hats all right I think we did it we're done done today we'll see you in 2026 congratulations on the book Adam thank you man American Tiger pick it up on Amazon call your bookstore in the stock it it's coming in January and more good stuff we have lots of exciting stuff planned for 2026 format wise event wise all kinds of interesting things that we're cooking up right now so I'll tell you more about all of that in the new year we're going to be doing more on sub stack and just you know live events all kinds of cool stuff so I'll leave it there for now and have a wonderful holiday everybody and we'll see you in 2026 thanks Adam thank you man all right love you buddy love you too happy holidays on the book yeah thank you peace all right everybody that's it for today thank you so much for listening I really do hope that you enjoyed the conversation to learn more about today's guest including links and resources related everything discussed today visit today's episode page at ritual.com where you will find the entire podcast archive as well as my books finding ultra the voicing change series and the plant power away if you'd like to support the podcast the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is free actually all you got to do is subscribe to the show on apple podcast on spotify and on youtube and leave a review or drop a comment sharing your show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome as well and extremely helpful so thank you in advance for that in addition I like to thank all of our amazing sponsors without him this show just would not be possible or at least you know not free to check out all their amazing product offerings and listener discounts head to ritual.com/sponsors and finally for podcast updates special offers on books and other subjects please subscribe to our newsletter which you can find on the footer of any page at ritual.com today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camillo along with associate producer Desmond Lowe the video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our creative director Dan Drake content management by Shana Savoy copywriting by Ben prior and of course our theme music as always was created all the way back in 2012 by my stepson's Tyler and Trapper Piotr along with her cousin Harry Mappis appreciate the love love the support and I'll see you back here soon peace plants