I've turned my trials and my tribulations and my pain into my own song and now I'm singing this song as these are the lessons I've learned from my life and this is what has brought me to this moment of strength and maturity and growth. Right. So the waiting for you, it works for you if there's a shift in perspective. Like it would be like focusing on the literalist, you are waiting waiting for me. Yeah. Uh-huh. And it is, I'm waiting for myself to get, like I'm talking to my future self. That was a Rumman Dale discussing the song "Waiting," which I wrote after being inspired by Psalm 89. I'm Chef Rosenman. This is the rest is commentary where we discuss what songs inspired by the Psalms or Tahillim inspire in my guests. A Rumman's a master educator and innovator who has spent more than 20 years reimagining how young people connect with Jewish life. That work directly led him to founding "Cedic America," a nonprofit that takes teens and young adults on immersive social justice and Jewish identity building experiences across the United States and elsewhere. Helping them connect Jewish values to real world issues. You can learn more about him and the organization by going to www.cedicamerica.com. A Rum specializes in high impact programs that make Jewish learning fun, relevant, and deeply values driven for whoever is in the room with him. In addition to the regularly scheduled trips for teens and young adults, be on the lookout for a social justice trip for adults sometime during May 2026. He previously led education at major congregations in the reform movement, including a decade at Leo Beck Temple in Los Angeles, where he oversaw everything from religious school and teen learning to adult education and national service experiences. A Rum holds a master's in Jewish education from Hebrew Union College, Jewish Institute of Religion, and has a background in marketing which he channels into creative projects like Hebrew Learning Apps and then award-winning Jewish radio station. He's a sought after speaker on experiential education, teen engagement, Hebrew language, and technology in the classroom, and his writing has appeared in multiple Jewish publications and anthologies. He's also a talented musician and chef with many specialties including making awesome gluten-free chala and crunchy pickles. Most important of Rum is chosen family. In this episode, I will be talking about how empathy and storytelling are key to meaningful social change. empathy is a muscle that needs to be exercised regularly. Storytelling as a powerful tool for connection and understanding, engaging with diverse communities to enrich personal growth, social change requiring active participation in empathy, the power of empathy to transform relationships in societal structures, personal stories that bridge gaps between different cultures, the importance of community engagement to foster mutual respect and learning, and so much more. Let's start off by listening to "Waiting." The ice cream truck whoops, turkey in the straw and loom. I see the waves from the top of the slide at the playground on beach 19. The ice cream truck whoops, turkey in the straw and loom. I'm waiting for you, waiting for you to shield me. I am waiting, waiting for you, waiting to sing you this song. I still watch your shine, long slow powerful pulses, always returning to show. Sometimes we've tried, sometimes we've tried, sometimes we've tried. Despite the violence of the waves, I am waiting, waiting for you, waiting for you to shield me. A tale of joy and suspense, suspense of indifference. I shake it off and return to the top of the slide. I'm so again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, where I'll keep waiting. Waiting for you, waiting for you to shield me. I'll keep waiting, waiting for you, waiting to sing you this song. Here's the question. In the same way that I was inspired to write this song called Waiting, I offer the song to you, among others, in hopes that it inspired something in you. The general question is, what did it inspire in you? I hope within that you'll answer what made you choose this song. Let's start with what it inspired in you. Because I know that it's a New York playground, and I used to go to New York. I know that not New York City, it's far walkways, not Manhattan, but I grew up with my grandparents living on 10th and Avenue C in Manhattan. And you can see the playground from their balcony, right? And my grandpa, my grandpa Ben, would take me to the playground, and that was just such a special memory. And New York City playgrounds were different than any other, I grew up in Baltimore. They were just solid, chunky, but full of adventure kind of playgrounds that you didn't find in other cities. What's the difference to New York City playground of our youth? I mean, your youth, your few years younger than I am, and Baltimore playground. New York City playgrounds were built to last, I think, and built to be indestructible. And so the features were not fancy, or they didn't have nice curves to them. They were just like, you climbed things, you jumped off a thing. That was about it. And maybe there was a slide, but the slide was always metal. So if you caught it with the right temperature, it was good to be on that slide, but it was a hot day. No, no, thank you. Was there anything else that intrigued you? I was wrestling with waiting for you to shield me. And so I feel like I would want more information from you about the song, and what the song was saying, because I found, for me, waiting for you to shield me problematic. Say more. And that waiting for someone else to do the work to protect me is, I mean, it depends on which stage of life and what relationship we're talking about. Right. But like in a mutually loving relationship, I think that's a problem in the relationship. Yeah. If someone is waiting for you to shield them, if it's a parent child relationship, and it's the child saying, I'm waiting for you to shield me, then that's sad that this child doesn't feel shielded and has to wait. Well, what do you think it is? I'm not done with all the possibility of relationships. Keep going. If it's the parent that is saying to the child, I'm waiting for you to shield me.
Then that's interesting. I've done all this work to protect you and take care of you. Now I'm older. And I need you to shield me because I'm no longer able to do that for myself. So that was, that one is makes the most sense in terms of my understanding of how relationships. But also like waiting, where's the communication? Like don't just wait, like ask, could you show me? But if it's a Psalm, I'm guessing God's involved in this. What do you think it means? My vision is that there's a child being teased by other kids. Possibly he's like trying to escape to the top of the slide from these other children. And he has time to take into view. And you know, this is the kid's tease, I guess. Yeah. So I think that's spot on in the first part. I think as we shift, there's more ambiguity as the bridge, the bridges and subsequent verses come on. I mean, my middle name is Pshot. I don't know if you knew that. So I do want to explain what Pshot is. Well, there's different levels of reading text. And I believe that there's an acronym, which is part base, right? Yep. What does this stand for? The P is Pshot. And then the others are Rames, Drosh and so Dremas means a clue, right hinted at. Yeah, hinted at. What's the second one? Drosh. Drosh is the explanation. Extrapolation. Extrapolation. And so does the secret. Like they're real. The cabalistic. Yeah. The woo-hoo stuff. Yeah. And I'm the simple part. Pshot. It's like, well, we'll get to Drosh and so in a minute. Okay. But in terms of the Pshot, I think you're spot on. I think it is a kid. And it's a kid who's teased. And it's a kid who needs to escape from the violence that happens to him, right? Is this an Israel? The people of Israel. And the way you're getting to the Drosh and the Soda. Okay. Yeah. But let's hold off on that for just a minute. You know, he's removing the pebbles from the elbow and his skin where he clearly got pushed down or something and that ripped his sweater. So I would ask you were you someone who was ever kind of teased beat up on? Yeah. I was definitely teased in middle school, less so in high school. I had a lot of coping mechanisms. I created a lot of friends and allies in different social groups that allowed me to eventually be class, sophomore class vice president, senior class vice president. I had a lot of friends. So like my defense mechanism was always make friends and make a lot of friends. How did you learn to do that? To make friends? Like you see you described that as a coping mechanism. So well, it was like a defense, you know, defense mechanism, I think would be better. Uh-huh. Like when it in times of fear, make friends, which I guess I do that for a living out too. What do you mean by that? It's hard to like be afraid of someone you're sitting in the room with that you're willing to get to know. Right. And so I work with teenagers, college students, adults, ages 12 to 120. And we help people learn about different populations, whether it's we have a civil rights trip we run, and we go to Birmingham, Montgomery, Selma, Memphis, Atlanta, learn about the history of our country, how it's founded on the dehumanization of others. We have a border trip where we go to Nagasaki, Arizona. We learn about immigration. We meet with border patrol agents, homeless security agents, DACA recipients, asylum seekers, left the activists to put water out in the desert. And we do programs in Los Angeles where we go down to Skid Row. And we hand out bottles of water and we go into a community and we are asked, can we be a part of your community and you and learn about you on Skid Row on Skid Row. Do you ever collaborate with Mandy? Yeah, we have. Mandy from Worthy of Love. Yes, she is great. And we partner with several of the missions. And we partner with homeboy industries, meeting with gang members. And we use, they don't do this anymore, but on Skid Row, there was a karaoke. Really? Yeah, over a Thursday night and a church held karaoke and I would bring kids down there. It's like seven o'clock at night. Skid Row, you know, Los Angeles has one of the largest unhoused populations in the United States with over 70,000 unhoused people. Wow. And on Skid Row, there's three to five thousand within four square block radius. And this church used to host karaoke and we would go and every many times when you're working with unhoused populations, you're doing something for them. Like I'm handing them clothes. I'm feeding them food. I'm bringing them something. And with karaoke, you are going to sing. You weren't singing for them. They weren't singing for you. You were all going to do karaoke together. And levels of the playing field. It was just like humanizing, right? That's the whole thing. Like you're a human. I'm a human. Karaoke is fun. And during the debrief, some of the kids would say, some of those people had really great voices, you know, with such a surprise in their tone. And I would say, yeah, yeah, they, some of them did. And another kid would say, some of those people did not have good voices. And I said, yeah, that's true too. Yeah, that's true too. I was like, why do you think that is? And they were stumped. I was like, because those are people. And some people have really good voices. Right. And some people don't have really good voices. What a powerful learning. Yeah. And they were just sitting. Someone would say, where were you from? And they would say Houston and so or they would say, Buffalo, New York. And sometimes the other person would say, we're from Buffalo, New York. You know, and they would have conversations. And I asked the pastor there, how do you feel about us coming down here? Is that weird? Are we like taking advantage in some way? Is this, you know, because I'm always questioning, true, you don't want to be a warrior. Yeah. But I'm always questioning the validity of the educational programs that I run. Like, am I doing this? Is this for right reason? What is the motivation? And the pastor said, most of these people don't have anybody. Their families have given up on them. Society has given up on them. Most people won't even look them in the eyes, which I have big conversations with the kids about looking people in the eyes. I'd love to talk about in a minute. But and he said, you coming down here and just being with them and being in community with them and sharing love of music and just sharing love is one of the biggest gifts that you can give this community on Skid Row. I forget who said this. Oh, Shamae. Shamae in Pirkevo says, the ethics of our ancestors says to encounter everyone, besaver, pandemia folks with a beautiful countenance. If you're not looking someone in the eye, you're not encountering them with a beautiful countenance. Yeah. Yeah. So when I used to work at Starbucks, 100 second in Broadway, it might have happened. Oh, wow. And then also here in LA and on link off of Lincoln Avenue and Maxela looking boulevard at Maxela in Rina Del Rey. And me and the other employees would always talk about who treated us as a human being and who treated us as a vending machine. Right. Now the world is going much more to or not only treating people as vending machines, but only interacting with vending machines. But people would put their money down on the counter to slide it to us. And I would like slide it back and I think you can hand it to me. I once had a guy come in and say, hey, how you doing? I want three Grande lattes and a small black coffee and Grande Capuchino. And I said, fine, thanks. How are you? He said, what? I said, well, your first question was, hey, how are you doing? So I'm answering your question. I'm fine. Thanks. How are you? What a great modeling. He said, good. I said, okay. Now what's your order? And then he gave me his order. He came back the next day and he said, hi, how are you doing? Impost. Oh, good. See, you learned. Yeah. But that's so important because many people don't. They don't hear you in that context. For me, my father was the like,
guy behind the counter at his store, but he was kind of gruff and rough. What kind of store? printer. He was okay. But my mother would talk to fucking anyone. And like I asked her why and she's like, everybody's human. You got to meet them where they are. And so I learned from her, you talk to your server, you ask their name. You know, if there's a door man that you encounter, you say hello. You say thank you. You ask him if he needs a cup of coffee if it's a cold day outside. And all of that is bound up in really kind of seeing people. So I want to bring us back to you said, that's what I do for a living. I mean, I make friends for a living. Yeah. So can you thread the needle and put these together? Maybe. So we're, we help people come and proximity to other people through our programs. So we have like the, we have the title of like immigration justice or civil rights journey or poverty alleviation and food insecurity and studying these issues and learning from people affected by the issue, learning from people who are addressing the issue, philanthropists, politicians, and figuring out how to make this world a kinder place, a more loving place where everyone has the opportunity to love and be loved and everyone has the opportunity to succeed without a stumbling block before them and a brick tied to their ankle. Right. So that's like the big goal. That's those are big goals. Like, yeah, it sounds nice, buddy, but I'm not running for the mayor of any city. And, but how do you accomplish that? Right. And, and to me, you teach people how to treat another person as human. And that is to like learn from their story. Everybody has a story to tell. And if you're honored enough that they're willing to share their story with you, what a blessing. Sure. And then you can learn from them and their life experience. And then you can feel closer to them and learn about who they are in their needs. And then maybe you can work on something together as well. So through my work, we're bringing groups, teenagers, adults to meet people who were activists during the civil rights movement to meet someone who escaped El Salvador, because they were, you know, being persecuted by gangs and are looking for a better life to meet homeless security agent who grew up Jewish in New Jersey and found his way to be a homeless security agent. And so now this is the way he's doing good in the world. Or a gang member who committed murder at the age of 16, but is now in society teaching teenagers art. Well, right. So we're, all of these people are just human beings who've had different life paths, made some interesting choices. Maybe I had trauma that they're processing and dealing. And we want to just put people in the categories without learning about who they are. That person is unhoused. That's, I know who they are. I know everything about them, right? They're unhoused. I got it. What do you know? 40% of people who are unhoused have jobs. Right. Do you know that? Right? So like 30% of people are unhoused have a mental illness. Did you know that a lot of mental illness follows homelessness? Not you become unhoused because you have a mental illness. Right. So like all of, and that's, so that's a human being who has had trauma, some kind of trauma. That has led them to this path. Right. So how can I learn about them? Ask if they want my support. How can I support them? So that's whether it's someone who's escaping an awful situation in another country, a gang member, an unhoused person, someone who's been discriminated against. Like these are all just human beings who are trying to make their way through the world. And we could all be do much better jobs supporting one another when we learn about the individuals. One of my favorite lines in the movie Men in Black, a very profound movie. And I'll be misquoting here by saying, Kay says the person is smart. People are stupid. And he's talking about group mentality as opposed to the individual mentality. And so like how do we individualize? And that's a lot of work. It's exhausting. Yeah. I'd rather put you in a category. Oh, you're Jewish. I know everything about you. You're black. It's just like I'm shortcutting my thought process because thinking is tiring. Do your participants ever build friendships and like retain, like remain in contact with any of the people that they meet on these trips? I think so. I'm always surprised to find out about it. Like a lot of ways that's not on my business. So on the contrary, it's deeply, I mean, from funding or impact perspective. That's a really valuable data. Yes. I know if I was better at that. Yes. I do know that our participants stay in touch with the people who are on our trips and the people who I see on our trips will say, I'm still talking to that kid I met two years ago or I know that sometimes reach out to us saying, hey, I'm doing a report on this topic. When you give me the contact information to the person we met on your program. That's already a mile. That's a good thing. Yes. So I know that many kids write their college essays about the programs that we, because this is they've never had outside of their bubble experience where they're treated like an adult. And I tell kids at the beginning of our trip, you'll be treated like an adult. I mean, we also do adult trips too. By the way, I had a 91 year old on my civil rights trip, a wealthy 91 year old who I think has seen the world. And he said, this is the most powerful trip I've ever been to. That's amazing. We're actually running a trip for adults on May 17th in 2026 in 2026. When does that go to market? You can find out about it by reaching out to us on our website at
[email protected]. And we're going to spell that one stumped me and I spelled DOT. When is it going to go on sale? I can people register now and I've been registered now through our website. But that's like, why was this the most powerful trip? That 91 year old man has ever taken when he's traveled the world and I think because he was moved. Well, he was moved by the by encountering other people. It's this to me, like I'm preaching the choir here. It's the stories that move us. That sense of reality. It's seeing how someone overcame trauma or how someone on a daily basis continues to overcome trauma. I mean, Sharon, I used to go to these dinners for unhoused people at Icar where we'd sit and we would just kind of dine and get to know these people and they're very moving because you're just talking to them. I mean, some of them it's hard, right? But for others of them, like you just hear their story and that in turn motivates you to go back and do it again or to go to the OB-KLA and deliver food or to go on your trips well, and you're very good at seeing people and wanting to know their story. And I think that's like one people, everybody wants someone to care about their story. And at the same time, the inverse is true. Everybody would like to hear somebody else's story and learn about somebody else's life. See how it relates to them, like documentary, wire documentaries, wire, biopics, biopics. Biopics. Biopics. Biopics. Yeah. And I'll say you pick. You could. That was good. Thank you. Thank you. I'd take a big. But, you know, we feel like we want to connect and learn about other people's lives and if someone is saying, I want to be vulnerable with you, then you've shared a powerful moment with someone if they're being vulnerable with you and people come away with through our programs like, I have new friends. I have a new friend in, you know, Memphis. I have a new friend in Alabama. I have a new friend in Phoenix, or Nogales. And they feel that, right? And they'll ask me like, Hey, how's Eddie doing? You know, they want to know. Well, it for me, I'm going to relate this to, I mean, you and Abby are directly responsible for a big part of my music journey and that you introduce me to folks fest, which introduced me to song school, which got me thinking about songwriting and whole other ways. And like, you know, when I was a young person, I'm not a young person anymore. I'm just young at heart.
That's how you ask. Exactly. And anyone you wrote. When I was a young person, I would, like, it was all about being a star. Like, how great am I? And by the way, I never thought I was, like, great like that. I just knew that I had something to say, but I didn't have the language in which to say it. I was interested in a quirky and the offbeat in, you know, in the William S. Burrows, King Crimson, David Bowie, like, of course, David Bowie's huge, but he's quirky. Yeah. He was in labyrinths. Yes, he was. Very quirky. But so, like, I was into all this weird stuff. Yeah. Because that's because I was the kid at the top of the slide. Now, later on in life, I became one of the kids who allowed other peak kids to get beaten up. I mostly, I mean, there were moments, but I mostly wasn't a beater upper. I was more of like subtle, make funer. Oh, yeah. And bystander, like, I would allow it to happen. Yeah. Which is, you know, like, Kigari, Tim Behr, it's me, it's Ryan, you know, take care of the stranger because you were strangers yourselves in Egypt. And I did not make that connection until much later in life. I was that kid at the top of the slide. And so I'm circling back to answer your question here. I wasn't intending to go here, but when I was feeling outcast, I had friends who might have shielded me, but there were moments where they didn't. In the same way that as an older person, as went from middle school to high school, once I was in high school, I could have shielded someone and didn't, waiting for you to shield me. And so that's where that comes from. It's not, I mean, I think it has its roots in the language of the song, but for me, that's where that was the intersection I found, which the image that, you know, I start a lot of these with stream of consciousness. And for, I'm almost sure that that's how this one started. Well, when you ask somebody's story, you're saying, I see you and I care about you. And this is why we tell stories in Shiva, right? And this is why the British South African and Australian communities, their form of Ni Khum, their form of, like the rabbis wrote this script to offer comfort because you can't really comfort someone. But there's a script so you have something to say and the English version is, may you live a long life? Why? I learned this from Selwyn Gerber. Why? So that throughout that long life, I can tell the stories and learnings of, you know, your loved one or you can tell the stories of your loved one. As you've told me about your mom, so many times, and I've talked to you about my mom. And that's how we keep memories alive and that's how stories like asking your server for their name become a grain to you. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've friends with, I've always was friends with the custodians at my synagogue, the security guard at my school. Like we had inside jokes with each other as we greeted each other. And it's, you know, like you're a human being with needs and I'm a human being and I'd like to connect with somebody. Yeah. You know, just think about like people like knowing their servers. Like when they go into Starbucks, they like to know my name. And I love doing I knew their name. Of course. Loved it. Of course. Yeah. Welcome. Same tall coffee. And man, they felt like a million bucks. For sure. Because you feel seen. Yeah. And that you remember is literally cream on top of the coffee. Can I tell you one of my favorite Starbucks stories? Please. We should get Starbucks response with this episode. Want to buy Starbucks? Have a grande latte on us. I was working at Starbucks and Marina Del Rey. And this guy comes over with this shirt that says Sonia Dada. And I said Sonia Dada. He goes, yeah. You know them? And I was like, yeah, I do. And he goes, how do you know them? And I said, I used to work on Conan O'Brien. Back when I used to have to say, I work on a show called Conan O'Brien. Because no one heard of it. And people would submit their CDs because they would want to get their band on Conan O'Brien. And there was one guy's job. His old job was listening to these CDs and choose the band. Good job. It's awesome job. And then they would put all the CDs in a box in the lobby waiting area. And anybody could take CDs. So I would always take like 10. Right. Oh, for our younger viewers, CDs stands for Compact Disc, which was a form of recording music and playing it back at home. And so I once got the CD at three songs on it and this band called Sonia Dada. And I loved it and they had a version of, you know, the Beatles song, Rain. Sure. Rain. I don't mind. They had a version of it. Uh-huh. And I loved it. And I used to play it all the time. And so I didn't tell him this whole story. But I said, they tried to get us Conan O'Brien once. And I got their CD because I used to work there. And that's how I learned about them. And he goes, Oh, nice. What's your favorite song? And I go, Rain. Rain. I don't mind. And then he goes, Oh, you sang that well. And I think you're on the right key. And I was like, Oh, thanks on the right. Wait, why does he? And he goes, thanks so much. And he tips me a $20 bill. Wow. And he goes, by the way, we did get on Conan O'Brien. Oh, I'm going to lose. That's amazing. Yeah. How cool. I don't know what band is today, but I know where that story is today. So I want to take us to another part. I said we were going to talk about the sode or the lash later. You asked me if we were going, if this was going to an Israel place. What do you think to the lyrics cover Israel? I'm holding that question, but I want to ask an even broader question. Is this just a story about a kid at the top of the slide? Or might this work as a metaphor for other other things? Well, anything go like as a metaphor. But does this work? I mean, you know, yeah. And you can say no, it doesn't work. I'm a literalist. So like I get stuck on concrete images. So like, you're like, does this work as something else? And I'm like, there's a kid stuck at the top of the slide right now. How could anything else be important? Okay. Well, I get home before dinner. And he's surrounded by mean kids are going to bully him. But at the end of the song, he talks about how he's going to go there again and again and again. Right? So he goes on to say a tale of joy and suspense, suspense of indifference. I shake it off and return to the top of the slide and I'll do so again and again and again. And again, we're all keep waiting, waiting for you. So I mean, to make the case. I think that at this point in the song, where we go to, I still watch the ocean wave. So now it's not clear. And I don't remember what I intended what I didn't, but as I'm reading the text, it's not clear that this is still the kid. This seems like a more mature perspective. But the kid still inside the speaker who's watching the ocean waves, long flow, powerful pulses, always always returning to shore. So that's the thing. There's this sense of repetition and cycling and this sense of mixedness, sometimes pristine despite the violence of the waves. Like a kid would never say, sometimes with times to try to try to, that's clearly chap talking or the adult talking. Yeah. And now I'm waiting, waiting for you means something else. If that's the case and again, we have this blending tale of joy and suspense, et cetera. I guess I was going to make the case. Being beat up, being made fun of is something that kids do, but it's also something that adults do regularly. It could be as passive as not saying hello to someone you pass at Skid Row. Yeah. It could also be not taking care of your friends at school or school or work. It could be, you know, cutting off the guy at the Starbucks line. But that metaphor is intended, whether it works or not is the open question, but is intended to say, you know what, despite the yuck, I will return to the top of the slide again and again. I'm going to choose home. I'm going to keep going to the border. Yeah. I'm going to keep going on the civil rights trip. Right. Right. Because I choose hope, because I want to learn from the scrapes and the ripped shirt as metaphor for all the yuck that happens. Right. Right. I just, what I get stuck on is waiting for you to shield me. I like the idea of where you're going with, and I'll keep doing it again and I'm growing and.
and I'll deal with these conflict and these complex feelings. And I know that a lot of people want someone to shield them. Like, and the guy stood up for me, or the woman stood up for me, or, and someone said, no, you don't. You know, that was like, that feels good. Like, I got you, man, I got you back. Like, that always feels good, but to be waiting for it feels disempowering to me. The point's taken. And at the end of the day, we all encounter lyrics, the way we encounter them. - Yeah. - So I'm gonna underscore the validity of that perspective, and I really can see it. I also wanna, I also wanna remind you that the full chorus is, waiting for you to shield me, I keep waiting, waiting to sing you this song. Does that change your read on it in any way? 'Cause that's the complete thought. Just confuses you more. - Yeah, the only way that it like rings, rings, and the only way it whoops in my ear in a way that, nice, thank you. This episode answered by Starbucks. Is that if the you is the me, like really like the, waiting for you to sing this song, like waiting, then it would, if it was the you was the me, then I've turned my trials and my tribulations and my pain into my own song. And now I'm singing this song as, these are the lessons I've learned from my life. And this is what has brought me to this moment of strength and maturity and growth. - Right. - Yeah. - Uh-huh. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Well, that's powerful because under that read, the young kid, the young speaker is recognizing that things are gonna change for them. And they're talking to their later selves. And the later speaker, how does it work in the last verse, if there's a shift in perspective there? - Yeah. I mean, we're always on this growth and development journey. And so like, it's so, when I'm talking to someone who's younger than me, like you're talking to me, who is much younger than you. Or like you have wisdom that I don't have 'cause of your stage of life, right? So it doesn't matter how old we get, there's someone else with more wisdom or, so like I, when I've been in difficult situations in my life, I've often said to myself, this is gonna be a great story one day. Right now it sucks. - Yeah. - But I know it'll be a good story. - Well, I just to clarify, it's not about age. It is about experience. So for example, some of the greatest lessons I've learned are from you and Abby, right? I run my office differently from the work I did with Abby in Leemood and from witnessing how you moderate and reflect questions back. And you're younger than I am. She's a lot younger than I am. So let's come back to Israel. - Yeah. - Could this be a metaphor for what's going on in Israel and Gaza? And so how does that work? - I was thinking of biblical Israel. So you bring in into the modern day. - I am. - That makes it more like charged. (laughing) Wow, could it be? - I mean, did you think that? 'Cause you, well so now I hear that you were thinking the ancient Israel. - That people of Israel and like wandering in the desert and afraid where's my next man coming from? - Right. - Right, so that, okay, so that makes sense. That's the waiting for you to shield me. Send me to the man, send me to the slaw, the Lord is my shepherd. - Right, exactly. Okay, so it's funny, I did not hear that. When you said Israel, I was like, "Huh, yeah, yeah." - Does that work? - Yes, that will. - You're so october 8. (laughing) - I'm so like, I'm so like, I don't know what year. - Well, but I think it directly relates to the work you do. - Right, you're focusing on stuff, Settic America, not Settic Israel. - Right. - I've described myself on this podcast as a center right person. So as long as you're in the center, you get to see the yuck of both sides. - Yeah. - Right, so when you have Israeli settlers doing committing violence, right? That's not okay. - Yes. - When you have Palestinian terrorists committing violence, that's not okay. - Yeah. - And you're doing the work that seeks to, in the US, to bridge the gap, you have people meeting both a homeland security person who's theoretically on the capital R, right side of the equation. - Yeah. - And the lefties, I think is what you said. - Yeah, that's what you said. - That's what putting water in the desert. - Right, so you're giving them the spectrum and you're educating these people that there's a complexity to this issue and that we, we, the users, the observers, - Yeah. - The people whose lives it may not directly touch but whom we encounter it, need to understand that complexity in order to truly be a part of society and to create social change. - And to do that work again is exhausting. I would say, including myself, anybody who's done my immigration program, anyone who feels like they're super left becomes more - Center. - Interesting. And anyone who felt that they were super right and knew what should happen becomes more center. - Right. - And that you learn from these human beings who are involved in the story about the complexities of the issues and the nuances and that, we're dealing with human lives, not votes. - Yeah. - I'm not trying to get votes. - Yeah. - We're trying to see what's the best thing for these humans and that is that's the really interesting thing about that trip and people go in skeptical of that trip. Like I've had, you know, I've had people on the political right and people on the political left both skeptical about that trip and they're like, "Well, I mean, who do we want on our borders?" Like is that the kind of guy we would want protecting our border? I mean, I guess I don't, I wouldn't do it, but like, right, you know, like, and then like this person has escaped like, like people, you know, killing her and tracking her down from one city to the next she tried to move to another city in her own country. And the cartel still tractor now. As she came to this country and is working at a church and helping people, you know, well, what kind of people do we want in our country? You know, so like, I think that's for the, I wrote a poem on October 8th actually. Do you have it? I wrote it and I wanted to share it with somebody and they're like, I can't, it's too raw for me. - No pressure. - I can't find my poem. - All right, but I'll tell you the gist of it was, it started off like, side A is doing this, side B is doing this. Side A thinks it's unfair, side B thinks it's unfair. Side A is experiencing war, side B attacked, side B is experiencing war, side A attacked. It's not fair and then like it blurs. But I'm talking about Israel and Gaza, but like, by the end of the poem with the help of ambiguous pronouns, you didn't know who, but it made, you could have put either one in, depending on like if you're looking at with the red lens or the blue lens, which you would see. I didn't mean to write a blue because of Republican Democrat. I got it. I was thinking of those old 3D glasses actually. This reminds me a lot of my conversations with Robbie Berman that I had a couple of weeks ago. He chose a song called, "What Would It Take?" And the lyric in the chorus is, "What Would It Take to Close the Circle?" Really feel each other's pain. And it's directly related to the conversation we have. It's just, you know, first and foremost, seeing each other as people. I could go on with you for hours. I know it's late for you. - But that's the empathy. - Yeah, we talk about radical empathy in South America. - We have the hats. - Yeah, that's and there's different definitions of empathy. But knowing someone else's pain and feeling someone else's pain because sympathy is when you're just like, "Oh, what a shame. That's too bad." And then you keep scrolling. - Right. - "Oh, what a cute puppy. Oh, next." Oh, that person really hurt themselves. That's kind of funny. [BLANK_AUDIO]
us add next that sympathy like these temporary emotions but empathy is getting in there and understanding someone's story understanding someone's pain and then how can I with my new found knowledge of someone be supportive if they want my support but that empathy takes work it's a muscle that you have to exercise you have to figure out how you can be and do that work you know some people can go to oba kla but they can't go downtown to skid row that's the need that that fulfills and you know we learned this from Ruth messenger you know donation is a form of political action too if all you can do is donate money because you can't handle encountering the humans yeah okay let's find let those of us who can encounter the humans do so one of my favorite lessons from Ruth messenger was how is that talk she was giving and she's talking about how they built this well in this town and someone raised their hand it said how did you know they needed a well and she said we asked yeah well that's one of the look I sharing I both went through that yeah fellowship you went to India where we were the token yeah the token with the docs yeah we wouldn't be token with the docs anymore anyway it was very powerful and it's one of the things that I think is still brilliant about the American Jewish world service I really could talk to you for hours but is there anything else you want to cover that we didn't cover it there is a few more things hit me okay one we said America started going into non-Jewish schools to talk about combating hate and anti-semitism we going with a Jew and a non-Jewish educator Pastor Randall Eskridge who also is an educator for us in a civil rights trip he says this thing about when two people when someone's being bullied or teased who has the most power in the relationship to stop it and we ask the groups that and some people say oh it's the bully the bully has the part to stop it and some people say it's the person being teased they have the power to stop it and Pastor Randall says it's the person watching it happen he has the power to say we don't do that here right and you need to stop it otherwise he's getting approval right that this behavior is okay which reminds me of another text Bimakom Shana Shem Hish Tadehli Odisha translate when in a place where there was no human beings be a human being yeah which goes back to the person is smart people are stupid yeah right it goes back to like group think is not you know is not a nuanced think so you have to break away from the group think to have to stand up for something and be an upstander right or moral courage to have moral courage means you have to be in the minority yep why because if everybody was doing something correct already you wouldn't have to stand up right therefore to have that moral courage you have to be in the minority which is super hard fear of rejection fear of becoming teased yourself yeah right and so when we go into schools we're talking about the history of anti-semitism we're talking about racism we're saying like what kind of school culture do you want to have and what are you going to do about it hmm you individual student right to make this school the kind of school you want it to be and we're now in L.A. U.S.D. schools we're in independent schools we're going to be starting a drop-in zoom office hours for kids to just come well and say like here's what I'm experiencing I don't know how to deal with it we have a full-time employee that's their only job is to that's amazing help come back hate and fight anti-semitism but the first school they'd ever called us was independent school here in Los Angeles and so we you come talk about anti-semitism and I said I will talk about how to change your school culture I will talk about how to be an upstander I'm not going to just talk about anti-semitism I was they don't hate shoes we invented ways in the cherry tomato ration out doesn't work but I can talk about how you can be angry at somebody without being bringing in their ethnicity their skin color their religion into the conversation yeah I can teach people how to have new honest conversations and ask questions so it sounds like you've evolved into focusing on anti-semitism as well yes how did that happen a friend or mine always played basketball with was that of D.I. at a school and he said can you get the Jewish parents off my back they're complaining about anti-semitism at the school this was 2019 pre-COVID well and I was like I will take any Trojan horse to get in a school to help change culture yeah you are meant to come to your school yes I'm going to come with me my director of development who's an expert in Israel who's on the world Jewish Congress and I'm going to come in with African American youth minister from Englewood and we are pasta randale pasta randale escridge and amazing educator and the three of us will model how to have conversations when we have we'll talk to each other about microaggressions and pasta randale say you're Jewish right can you help me with my taxes and then we'll say yes if you can help me with my jump shot and the kids are like oh man and they were like what just happened there right we made assumptions about each other we ask kids who's told a racist joke every hand goes up who's heard a racist joke you know every hand goes up and I say who's created their own racist joke almost no hand goes up what does that mean that you have passed hate along without even creating it yourself and words do matter actions matter in this school community what kind of school community do you want to have in a place where there are no humans be a human so it's all the same yeah it's all the same lesson that people need to hear it in different ways and again and again and again and again do you ever follow up with these schools or do they do follow up to see the impact of these talks yes and now teachers come over to us and say you're saying things we're not we don't feel we're allowed to say really why I don't know if there's politics uh-huh whatever the politics are of the place students say thank you this you're the first group of people to talk to us like adults you didn't talk down to us you talk to us right well you saw them again coming back to that yeah and we ask they get to ask questions at the end so sometimes they ask about Israel not a ton but they ask about Israel they ask about like what should I do in this situation hmm I you know I get teased for being gay and I don't know how to handle it well we're trying to create brave and safe spaces where people can ask these questions and they do and we also model how to ask questions like you can be curious about things one time at an assembly I said to Pastor Rando hey why are all the black kids sitting together and the kids are like whoa and the and the black kids that were sitting together like kind of laughed you know because like we've all noticed it maybe we've wondered it but we're never supposed to talk about it but if you come from a place of curiosity and seeking to understand not a place of judgment then we can like learn about each other and from each other and he goes well aren't all the white kids sitting next to each other too right and don't you want to sit with people who maybe share the same culture or same kind of language isn't that a natural thing you know do Jewish people like find each other at conferences or I was like oh yeah it's kind of noticeable when the black kids sitting each other because they are skin colors different but I asked that conversation in front of 2,000 kids sure and we're just having this conversation and so it inspires people to lead with curiosity to lead with curiosity yeah awesome anything else you want to cover I love your show I love you too I'm from you are family yes I think it's so fun that you're doing this podcast and as a creative outlet and teaching yourself and allowing others to learn alongside you you've always been a model of what it means to go through the world as a learner and how everyone has something to teach everyone has something to learn and something to do something to teach and you really embrace that and so many aspects of your life yeah thank you well look I think your wife is the first person who recognized that in me and it was before I recognized it in myself.
I just wanted to do songwriting workshops and that's where I thought it was going to end. But she said, "No, no, you can teach." I'm like, "I was the worst student." And she said, "No, you can teach." And specifically, what prompted her to say that is because I love learning. So I'm grateful to each of you for so many different things that I've learned from you. And I will often envies with a bracha, a blessing. So I would like to do that with you. May you have the strength to take care of yourself so that you can continue to teach us how to take care of the world. It's beautiful stuff that you do. Thank you. I love you, brother. I love you too. Thanks so much for listening. Special thanks to Avram for joining me to Devon Schwartz for his help in producing this episode to E-Rose for his help producing the song and this episode to Liz Hanel and whose feedback helped make the song better. And to Jessica Khan, a sweetler for her help on social media to Leotzel Verre for designing the podcast logo into my wife, Sherry, for everything. You can find waiting in all of the other songs in this song cycle on most platforms at Stream or Download Music, including Spotify and Apple. In the next episode of The Rest is Commentary, I'll be talking with my friend, Hollywood agent, Jim Erich. We discuss guilt as a step towards resolution and personal growth, moving towards acceptance, moving faith and spirituality outside organized religion, how surviving cancer changes your perspective on life and your priorities, music as a powerful influence on personal experience, seeking deeper understandings of yourself and so much more all inspired by Jim's thoughts after listening to, don't turn away from me inspired by Psalm 38. Please join us. [BLANK_AUDIO]
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