Rhea Seehorn

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. Today we have Emmy Award winning actor, Ray Sehorne. Oh, Pluribus. We love Pluribus. She's so good. She's our star of Pluribus. Yeah. Also, she was on Better Call Saul for years, Bad Boys Ride or Die, Inside Man Most Wanted. And she is on the new season out now on Apple TV, Stick, with good old Owen Wilson, who she gives glowing reviews to. She does. Please enjoy Ray Sehorne. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking whether the turkey was fully thawed before Thanksgiving morning. You were told days ago to thaw it. Days. And now you're standing in the kitchen holding a 20-pound ice block, wondering if a hairdryer counts as cooking. Yeah. Checking first is always a great idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate, North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We get support from Quince. Okay. Can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself. Because let's be honest, self-gifting is a love language. Quince is seriously. The gift that keeps on giving. Their high-quality staples are made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold in Italian leather, full-on luxury quality at prices that won't wreck your holiday budget. It's the dream. The cashmere sweater starting at $60, down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories. You and everyone on your list are staying cozy and looking incredible all season long. Well, I'm going to tell you this. It just got chilly for the first time this year in California. And I'm so excited. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now. It's great. Yeah. And I am going to give this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening. Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here. And it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is supported by Helix. Okay. Can we talk about how November is basically survival mode between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything? Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling. It really is the foundation. And I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor. That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes. And they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress. And I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds recently that doesn't have a Helix mattress on it. And I really could tell a big difference in my sleep. Temperature was all over the map. It was a mess. I need a new one. Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide. Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes. So it's not just us being enthusiastic. The experts agree. Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com slash armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com slash armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. helixsleep.com slash armchair. Helixsleep.com slash armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. Welcome! Thanks for having me! I'm very excited to have you! I'm so happy to have you. That was a good sense of our little globey lunch. Oh, that's true. Remember that? Or brunch. I guess it was a brunch. It was first time Golden Globe nominee brunch. First time nominees. It was cool. It was cool. You were at the cool table. I'm rarely at the cool table. So that's very kind of you. I was happy for you. If that's your memory, I'll take it. Yeah, there's tiers of tables. You understand this. Definitely sometimes you feel it, feel it. Yeah. And you're like, I'm legitimately put on the edge of this thing by the kitchen. You're making a good point that you only feel it if you think you're at a lower table. Probably. Right? The only people that can possibly feel good are like Leonardo DiCaprio. Because when you go to these things, you're like, oh, I finally got here. Like, oh, wait, TV's in back. Okay. Yeah. I guess we're over here. Now they're over there. I was so excited. I was like, shit, you can't win. It's a real roller coaster. You can only win if you're Leonardo DiCaprio. Well, you can win if you're you because you did. You're sweet. You can literally win. Oh, yeah. But I mean, it was funny. I was elbowing Carolina because I said, I'm always so uncomfortable when they do that in memoriam thing and people clap for some people that they recognize more. And I was like, even in death, our popularity is mattering. Exactly. It does. I know there should be a rule, no clapping until the end. A big clap for all. Right. I mean, obviously the idea is like, yes, I know that person's body of work very, very well. Yay. But then it's like some poor person that nobody. If I end up with a terminal illness diagnosis, I might fake my death just so I can observe if I make it in the in-memoriam. And then if so, yeah, where they clap or if people go, what did they say? No. I suppose you could interpret it that they're clapping like, oh, he's dead. Yeah, thank God. I love your bag. Thanks. Claire V. It's a good bag. Local, right? Local. Love it. that's locally sourced yeah i'm not trying to put it on display here but yeah my friend the awesome writer actress gloria calderon kellett just turned me on to her bags well then you're gonna say got it for you as a gift that would have been even one step better with a bunch of crap in it pre-loaded yeah pre-loaded there's a lip balm in there there's some ad bill oh that'd be nice that's actually a good gift idea pre-loaded purse yes you would be particularly good oh like a new phone yeah i was thinking more like personal like how good would you be at guessing what somebody wants in their purse yeah i would be bad very personal very intimate what is the most outrageous present you've ever bought somebody outrageous in what category it could be either it could be like i can't believe i'm spending this much money on somebody or it could be like i can't believe how much work i've put into this this is the high watermark time put into something for not much product would be like when i make people things what kind of things do you manufacture i uh what if i was like i have a plant you have such a cute smile it's really bullying me over you don't smile a ton and you know what's why i gotta say this now because it's gonna happen our friend eric pronounces everything wrong okay we all like it and we'll start pronouncing the things he pronounces wrong so he has fucked up pluribus oh no that's what he calls pluribus okay pluribus okay and in our whole now pod we all say pluribus i don't i'm in the pod and i have not i'm just so you know but if i accidentally say pluribus it's eric richardson how does he say my name okay yeah i wanted to talk about this we need to get this exactly one syllable it's ray it's just ray yeah oh i went raya i know that i heard jimmy fail and say, right. I defer to him. I'm glad we're clearing this up. So much easier. What if you were to act like what you meant was Ray, comma, uh, and then you were speaking. I would claim that in a court of law if you sued me. I would say, no, obviously I said, Ray, a wonderful person. Yeah, exactly. I was just in somewhere where there was a very large group of drunk people that were shouting, but they were very nice and they were shouting, we love the publicist. Oh, wow. I was like, I think you're talking about pluribus yeah maybe you really like rayo we love the publicist maybe i really like with bernstein from this point i don't know pluribus yes you're not smiling a ton and i don't smile a ton i know no but you just smiled so brightly and i was overwhelmed with how cute of a smile you have yeah it's kind of fun there's a few of us that didn't fix our teeth in this town okay oh but they look great i got some jankiness i have some jankiness it's like whatever character It's character, right? Back to what you may or may not have built for somebody for a present. Oh, okay, bless you. So I constantly have to be making things. If I'm not working, I will embroider or sculpt or paint or draw or crochet. That's a childhood pursuit, yeah? You love painting and sculpting. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's carrying on. But because when it was crochet, and for some reason I can't get the hang of knitting, but I really, really want to. But I want the project to be over quicker, so I would make like baby clothes or amigurumi because it's a tinier object. Like, yeah, it's not going to take months and months and months. Yeah. Everyone was like, wow, you're really obsessed with babies. I was like, no, I just need it to be over. Tell me about the embroidering that's done on a sewing machine. That's on a hoop. Oh. You are not wrong. There are machines that do the massive embroidery. Like if you're getting like a baseball cap with letters, those are machines. Yeah. This is more almost like doing like a little painting in thread. Oh, okay. Okay. And what is needlepoint? I'm not entirely sure, but it is different. But embroidery often is leaving space. Not always, but it almost looks more like a drawing element versus needlepoint to me. I know somebody is going to write you and correct all of it. It looks like miniature cross stitch to me. The way it's like every teeny square has the exact same kind of, there's a grid. You know who we can ask about this? Laura Moses. Yes. Wait, are you guys friends? Matt does Ray's hair. Matt does my hair all the time. Yes. He says hi. I have no idea. Yeah. Next time you're with him, ask him how Eric pronounces stuff. I'm sure he'll hit you with five or six. Oh, really? Yeah. Whammies. But Matt is doing your hair just so perfectly. Did you do it today? Yeah. Looks great. It looks so good. I just made, I just made him so that it took me two years. Well, I mean, I did when they had the registry, when they had their kid, but then because he's just become such a close friend, I was like, oh, I should make something for their kid. Even though they're small things, I'm slow. Yeah. Yeah. So kind. Is he like two years old now? Yeah. They're called ragdoll. Stuffed animals. So they're kind of have a stuffed animal head. It's a puppy and paws, but then the whole body part is more like a blanket. So you can like drag it around like a. I like that. For a while, people were like, oh, you should start an Etsy shop. I was like, one product per like two years. That's obvious, right? Yes, exactly. But my wife is like you. She has to be busy doing something. She's a big, big knitter. Oh, she makes these incredible. Incredible sweaters. Maybe Kristen can help me. And she sincerely wants an Etsy shop. And I was like, hun, when do you think you are going to have the time? Oh, in my head, I want one. Can you imagine? And then like Kristen and I are like at UPS trying to ship stuff out with like shipping costs. And then getting their complaints and it getting sent back because this isn't actually an extra small. I think that's a headline. Ray and Kristen's Etsy shop sucks. Yes. Let's go to Virginia. Northfolk, Virginia. Like now? Do you want to go? Yeah, we're going to head out. Yeah. Norfolk, Virginia. Norfolk, if you're from there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did you say? Norfolk. Norfolk. Okay. I'll take that on. Just like Baltimore instead of Baltimore. Right. What is the one I say you hate? I say, well, Norlands. You're supposed to say Norlands. Norlands. It's one word. Norlands. Right. Norlands. Wow. You're really getting into it today. Just if you're going to do it, you might as well do it. What age were you in Norville? Yeah. Born there and then left at two years old to move to Itsugi, Japan. Okay, great. So already you'll be the first person to move to Itsugi, Japan. You'll be the first person I've probably ever interviewed whose father was in naval intelligence. Correct. Counter. Counter intelligence. Let's paint a fair assessment of how rare this position is. You're a smart motherfucker if you're in this role, no? He was very smart. He passed away, but yes. And then mom was also, she was working as an executive assistant. Right. We were civilian, but they both worked on bases frequently. And then my mom was doing all different types of jobs. After they got divorced and she went back to work on a lot of bases, she did everything from paralegal work to the person who does all the quality control training for people in the service and stuff. Oh, okay. Yeah, she did a lot of things. She did it all. She's very smart too. Did they meet somehow through the Navy? No, I actually don't know. I do know one thing about how they met. A man named Ray introduced them and that is why I named that. That's why you got that as a middle name. That was a throwaway, right? That was a throwaway. A nod to him, but in the middle. Yeah. First name, Debra. Debra. Got called Debra. B, perfectly fine name, but I don't know why I didn't feel a connection to it. And then it progressively got worse as I became a chunky middle schooler. And they would say, hey, Fat Debbie, do you want some more Little Debbies to snack? Oh, Jesus Christ. They were popular in Detroit too. This was in Japan? They were so bad. No, they moved back to Arizona at that point. But I was like, or no, that was Virginia Beach. You can get called Fat Debbie real easy in Virginia Beach. I've spent some time there. 100%. 100%. And I was just like, I have always liked my middle name better. Let's just chuck this one. You're on record as saying you really associated that with like attractive cheerleaders, that name. I'm so sorry that was on record. I don't want to be mean to anybody named Debbie out there. No. Or the cheerleaders. I had best friends that were cheerleaders. I was a cheerleader, so we take this in stride. She would always be like the person that's in like a John Hughes film that would be the really snobby, extremely good looking cheerleader who was mean. And that was not me for any of those categories. So it felt a little ill for me. Yeah, I think. I think we're in the same generation. 12 years later, that person became Becky. I think Debbie was Becky. I see. But also, if ever you were going to say something about Deborah, saying that you associate them with very attractive cheerleaders, I mean, that's hardly offensive. Yeah. Of all the things you could say, like, you're not like, oh, Debbie's generally are assholes or something. But you are saying they can be a little rude, these Debbies. It's a very particular kind of popularity. Yeah. Yes. Which is not true across the board. But at the time, that's what that name was a little more known for. Monica was cool. That was the name that was. Oh, yeah. It would be the more like exotic name. Like if you were like a Sophia or a Monica. Oh, wow. Strong, bold. Yeah. And probably like dresses a little cooler than all of us. Little new wave. Yeah. Little new wave. Little new wave. And a little esprit. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, lived esprit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We know. We're the same age. So we know. We know what's going on with that. When I moved, though, from Arizona, I moved from Yuma, Arizona. Tiny. Tiny. Tiny. Tiny town. I've heard it's built up since then. But one school. Not large enough that they even had separate kind of areas based in class. So moving from Japan, we didn't live on bases. I lived in a normal Japanese little suburb. Do you have any recollection? No. You're too young. I do. My sister, who's three years older than me, there's many times she lives in North Carolina. There's many times where we will pick out the exact same wrapping paper from two totally different TJ Maxx, because that's what we like to do is browse around the home goods. Get the max for the minimum. I love it. Or cards or something. And it almost always will link back to something that feels slightly Japanese. Yeah. You're drawn to the aesthetic. Cherry Blossom Prince. We're both obsessed with all things miniaturized, which is a huge Japanese thing. I totally remember it. I love miniature stuff, too. Me, too. Obsessed. I know it's a huge trend now, but my obsession goes way back. Can I tell you my ultimate goal? Like, if I had Elon Musk money? Yes. I want to build a pretty lengthy, lazy river. Let's say I have 20 acres. I build a lazy river. And then. On the river, I build everything that's on the Colorado River along it. So, miniature Rocky Mountains with the miniature ski lodges. And then I want to be able to float through and feel like a giant going down the Colorado River. That's kind of my dream. I was not guessing that end part there. That I'm a giant? A giant part? Yeah. Yeah. That's the part you like. Yeah, like Gulliver's Travel. It's confusing because you are a big man. Like, why do I want? Why? That's like when Bill Gates said he wanted to be smarter. When they asked him what superpower he wanted. You're like, what a waste of his. Oh, do you really? Yeah. Isn't that cool? Kind of. It was kind of cool. I liked that. This one's weirder to me. Like, it would make sense if I wanted to be like a giant. Yes, it would. Because I've never been able to experience that. Sure. But I think you could easily psychoanalyze this. Of course. Yeah. You love to overpower people. Yeah. I don't ever want to feel. Small. Threatened. Yeah. Or in danger. Or going to get physically harmed. It would be so fun to be a real giant. Sure. And like walk through the Rocky Mountains and everything be tiny. I think it would suck. Well, yeah, you'd be very lonely. Where would you find a mate? And you'd keep breaking everything. And you might step on some people on accident. This is bound to happen. Yeah. Every food item is going to feel like the tiniest snack. What about walking through Manhattan, though? And it's like you're at face level with the Chrysler building. And you can like walk around. Like, wouldn't that be fun? No. No. All right. I don't have any. Either of you can't co-sign on this fantasy. Yeah, any purchase. I make tiny things, too. I like the craft that's involved with making something miniature really well. Have you been to Legoland and looked around? Looked at those little cities. Aren't those cities incredible? It's so incredible. And then I just got to go to like my first fashion show for Louis Vuitton. And they flew me out. And it was all very fancy. But everybody was nice. It was not. I get very socially anxious where I constantly think I don't belong wherever I am. But I had an absolute blast. But we had one day off. It was like totally free. It just ended up not being any press or anything. Ruth Bernstein that I mentioned earlier is a good friend of mine and my publicist. She's also obsessed with miniatures. There is a store. There's two stores there. But we found that that's all they sell is the miniaturization of like everything. You would be a giant in there. I would love that. If you walked around, you would actually love it. I feel so safe. It was super cool. Because if a mean man ran out of a building, it was like, I'm going to find him. I'd be like, oh, come on now. Wow. You can't do anything. Wait, a mean miniature man? Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I'm a giant, I'm safe. You guys are not getting this. We are getting it. I just want there to be a diorama somewhere that is battery operated to have a mean man come running out. Like a cuckoo clock. He's just like, damn it. And then he goes back in. Well, no, he's got to say the same shit people said to me in my town where I'm from. There's got to be really. What? Well, the terrible words they called boys, you know. Got it. I won't get bogged down in that. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, there's got to be like miniatures of old stepdads and stuff. They pop out. Are they saying the F word? And they say, yeah, yeah, one of the F words. Oh, God. And then some of my stepdads will pop out and they'll go, you better eat with your, you know, and I'll just laugh. I love it. Because I'm so big. I love it. Okay, so you do remember Japan to some degree. To some degree. And then Yuma, Arizona. I'm hip to Yuma, Arizona quite a bit. Really? Have you ever heard of Glamis, the sand dunes here in California? No. They're on the border of Mexico. in the border of Arizona. Okay. Huge sand dunes. And we go out there and go off-roading. Oh. And my wife and I's favorite thing about it is we pick up the local Yuma news over the aerial antenna. Her father is a news producer of some repute. We're very hip to how it goes. And the amount of errors that are happening real time in the Yuma news, we then take videos and send to her father just because we know the father would shoot himself in the head if this was going on. But it's very, very pleasurable to watch. Okay. I'm going to have to check that out. It was kind of mean to Yuma's news. We've been pretty disparaging. But I loved Yuma when I was going to say the fact that we all went to school and like we had like a mansion next to like a shack. I was super, super unaware of class as well as judging people by clothing. It was like some weird, idyllic kind of bubble. We had kids on food stamps. We had people from reservations. How were people rich there? I think money they had before that. But those people would be like, when? And he was my sister's good friend and she had horses on her property and we were like, what? It like blew our minds. But moving from there to Virginia Beach. What age? Nine. Okay. You were in Yuma until nine. Yeah. From like three to nine? No, like six to nine. Six to nine. What was in Yuma? I don't know what case he went there for. I know we came back to Virginia for the Walker spy family case, which was fairly famous. What's that? It's a very interesting read if you want to read it. It's two brothers. One was Navy and the other one was CIA or FBI. I can't remember. Which both had begun giving secrets to the KGB. And both have since died in prison. And one of their wives was also part of it. And they were using their kids to do like dead drops on bikes. And for a while, they were going to try to prosecute one of the kids. And then I know you're going to fact check all of this. I can't wait. The kid did not get penalized. The kid had no idea what he was doing. But even in the trials, they were still claiming like, I didn't actually harm anybody. Why are they saying that I did? But the Navy guy was telling the KGB the exact weak spots on our ships. Oh, Jesus. Where you could torpedo or bomb them and take the whole thing down and kill people. But he's like, yeah, but I didn't kill anybody. And then the other one was giving up the names of our agents that are undercover in Russia. All assassinated, I'm sure. And he's like, but I didn't do anything. I just gave names. So FBI said, FBI, CIA, I think it was FBI, CIA, NSA, and NIS, which is now NCIS. They all were working together. It took years and years and years and years and years, which I later found out. Just like, what was it? The Robert Hansen one. Wasn't that a big one out of Maryland? I need a dinner party with you. I need all of these stories. I don't know enough. My dad had passed away before that one, but definitely our people turning was his thing. And how much was he talking to you guys about his job? That was a huge curiosity of mine. Not a lot. So he was in the, in the field as an agent and like deep undercover before my sister and I were born. So there was that sort of more like spy thing you would think of when you think of spy going on then. But by the time my sister and I were around, he's going to a regular office. I definitely saw an interrogation room one time and I just immediately got the creeps. But unfortunately he died when I was 18 and your head is still way too far up your ass as far as thinking your parents are cool or interesting. I was like, whatever. Well, it's standard. Your dad's like, whatever your dad is. He's like, that's standard dad. So now I have all these questions that I can't get answered. Yeah. But it felt more like, oh, dad goes to work with certain agents and occasionally I'd meet people that seem like his partners, but for short periods of time. And I always wondered like, was he investigating them? I wonder like, was it really hard for him to make friends? If you're like, well, if Fred's sitting with you, he might be investigating you. I don't know. Or was it not within your own office? I have questions. Maybe somebody could write in and help us. He ended up doing it for 33 years. He was older when you were born, I presume. Or he was an older dad? No. And he died at only 52. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Can I ask from what? Alcoholism. Oh. Okay. Okay. This is so sad. I'm sorry. Thank you. He and my mom had been divorced since I was 12. She's been happily remarried for over 20 years. But I always feel sad that I think he probably had some kind of depression that you're just like self-medicating for in a way that we talk about a lot easier now. Yes. And also, I think we're more aware and the government's more aware of helping people that you're putting in positions that mentally screw. He was in the Vietnam War and in the Tet Offensive too. And like, I never heard him talk about any of this. I never heard. So when people were like, did he tell you about the cases? Not really until they were over. Like he handed me a Newsweek article. I think it was Newsweek. I can't remember. But on the cover was them finally catching the Walker spy family. And loading them onto a plane. And the agents that were all part of the investigation are photographed but only from the back. You know, loading them on. And my dad had severe like, I forget what you call it, but it's like swayed back knees. When he locks his knees, they go way, way back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I totally knew it was him. Wow. And he was like, you see who that is? And I was like, oh yeah, I don't even think I read the article. Yeah. So stupid. I was like, I don't want Newsweek. Where's Seventeen Magazine? This is dumb. Children are stupid. Children are incapable of being interested. It's part of the dynamic. They're interested in who I could introduce them to. Surely. There's that. Yes, yes, that's true. Or tickets to things. Yeah, yeah. Tickets. They're interested in you as a conduit to other things. They absolutely want to know if suddenly a sports person follows me on Instagram. Oh yeah, that's a big deal. That could get tickets to something. Sure, sure, sure. And musicians. I hope you deliver occasionally but not too often. Correct. Yeah, that's the sweet spot. Well, my father was an alcoholic but he found sobriety That's awesome. But he also died very young because I think the damage, 62. It's not ideal. No. Seemed less crazy in 2012. I was like, 62 feels pretty old. Now I'm 51. I'm like, hmm. It's weird, right? Yes. When I turned the age that my dad was when he died, I was like, whoa. Yeah. Yes. Because at the time, you're right, 52 and 62, they feel older when you're younger. It was early but not insane, right? I knew it was very early because everyone, especially because I was only 18, you could see it on people's face of like, oh my God. And I didn't know anybody who had a dead parent. Right. Anyway, so I knew that it was significantly young but I don't think I fully, and it sounds extremely narcissistic to say like, it wasn't until it's my life but it's more about seeing where you are in life and how much you feel like you just started getting going in some ways. Yes. And you're like, whoa, if it was just cut off tomorrow, that's crazy town. Oh, yeah. Yes. 62 also. Yeah, it's kind of nuts. Are your parents with us? They are. They are. And they're, they're both above 61. Yeah, like, oh, let's hope. No, my dad's in his 70s and my mom is in her 60s. They're going to 100. And they're not going to win. They're doing okay. They're going to see 100. My mom's 83. She's crushing it. Oh, great. I just put her on a plane to go home. I got her greeters. Nobody like think I'm a horrible person. No, that's so great. Yeah, she flew out to see me and go to the Academy Gala with me. Oh. She came out from Virginia and I have a picture of her hanging with A$AP Rocky who was so nice and he was like, you're exactly like my mom. That's what he's saying because she was excited to talk about her dress costing $60. I love him. He's so, so cool. Yeah. Virginia Beach, nine years old. It's a beach town, much like L.A. It's so spread out. You can be driving and driving and driving and it still is Virginia Beach. Oh, wow. Although the resort pier boardwalk part is the famous part. But man, was that such a massive learning curve for the name brands. All those 80s beach, like O.P., wave riding vehicles, eyes out. It just, you start wearing multiple eyes outs with different collars popped up. Ron John Surf Shop shirts? Ron John, yes. Yeah, nice. Body glove. Uh-huh. DoorDash. Oh, DoorDash. That's not beach, but Sassoon. You might like, if you got to school, you won. Like, doesn't really matter how or what is on your body. Right. Anyway. Stranglers. No one cared. Yeah, yeah. Literally, some people rode a horse to school. You had a little culture shock. Yes. And I was considered very cool for not caring, like, wearing, whatever, like, look at her cuckoo clothes for, like, literally about 48 hours. And then just sharp. Fell off a cliff. Sharp. The interest is over. Yes. And then I got made fun of brutally. What about your sister? Was she always cool? She was. She was. My sister dressed cool. Did you copy her? Tried hard. It made her hate me. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I stole a lot of her esprit clothes and always ruined them. Oh, God, no. I know. No. Debra. Always. Debra, don't ruin her clothes. I stole her jewelry and lost it. I stole her clothes and ruined them. Oh, my God. These little siblings. I know. Can't. She and I were only in school together at the same time for elementary because this is different here. When I was growing up, seventh to ninth was middle school. Oh, that is. Junior high is actually what it was called. 10, 11, 12 was high school. Oh, weird. So our three-year difference made us never in the same school except elementary. Virginia Beach is really doing it. Really doing it different. They are. I've never heard of that permutation of the grades. Normally, we're looking at a six through eight middle school. Yeah. Nine through 12. You guys should have been in high school together. Yeah, for one year. Yeah. We were not. You were not. And so the massive interest in like painting, sculpting, all those things are solitary endeavors. Yeah. That was a refuge. My whole family is very good in artistic endeavors of all sorts, but none of them did it for a living. Your dad and your grandma were both really. So for my sister and I both as kids, kids, it was very, the same as like, you know, they say kids take up reading as like a leisure hobby, if that's what they see their parents doing. And my dad would come home and just start drawing, constantly, constantly sketching. So it was very normal for us to do that. And then we would draw with him. And then when we got to see my grandmother, she taught painting and also had like a whole craft studio. I do think it was an outlet, but it was kind of absorbed osmosisly. And then I ended up going to, in Virginia Beach, it's called Old Donation, a school for the gifted and talented program. Thank you. Oh my God. It's a little bit like the governor's magnet schools that you will get shipped out to like one day a week. So I would go to this other school. And then later it was after school for more than one day a week. And then I just started getting more and more and more into like the classes and advancing and then got my degree in fine arts. So Ray, when you would go to this class for the one day a week, were those your people? Yeah, I loved those kids. And they weren't even necessarily, I can't remember. Oh, Mark Quintana and I became like friends, friends. But for the majority, let's say there was 10 people in it. We were all from different schools. It wasn't like we're going to now hang out outside of this. But I guess the closest I would say is it felt like I later felt like about theater. My people. They're your people and it's safe and you're going to explore things together. More of me exists. That's comforting. Yes. Later, I would say once I decided that I was going to pursue acting and I very quickly saw the business side of both the visual arts and of acting art take up so much time. They are a whole different. And I was like, I'm not gonna be able to do both of these. One of them needs to be just privately as a hobby. And so I decided art would be. And now I would categorize it more what you had said. I would categorize it as definitely a yin yang thing to how social. Our jobs are as actors. Yeah. Yeah. It's I don't need anybody's permission. Yeah. It's a private pursuit. It's very calming to me when I'm painting and drawing and sculpting. That'll be a more just feeling like another creative outlet. When I do the things that are tedious and repetitive, like crochet, the embroidery, I'm usually following a pattern or I bought a kit. I also do Lego sets and jigsaw following instructions that are tedious one at a time and then unraveling if I get it wrong and doing a step at a time. It's extremely calming to me. Wow. So I do that stuff to calm my anxiety. That's truly miserable sounding. I am your gal. Like if you have furniture to build, like an Ikea thing that just won't come out. I have taken a printer apart and put it back together just because I was irritated that they make them to break so easily. Now it worked for two more days. I have to say that was it. But still, I mean, I was like, we're going to learn how to build this printer. Oh, my God. It took a very long time. Stay tuned for more Armchair Experts. If you dare. Not checking if your alarm is actually set before you go to bed. You could have sworn you set it. Even remember looking at your phone. But apparently looking at it and pressing the button are two different things because now you're waking up to sunlight and panic. Yeah. Checking first always makes sense. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates. Northbrook, Illinois. We get support from no bull. The holidays can get hectic. You finally hit a post-summer routine and suddenly you're on hosting duty every week. That's when you really need to ground yourself. Exactly. And that's why I keep my training routine through the holidays. It's the whole no bull idea. There's a no bullshit training brand built around consistency, honesty and just putting in the work. It's not about adding more pressure to an already packed schedule. It's about having the gear and the habits to move through the season your way. My personal favorite. All three of the shoes are fantastic. The Outwork, the Outwork Flex and the Drive 2. 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It wasn't until I moved to D.C. and then definitely when I moved to New York that I, sad, but I'm glad that I did wake up and realize that not everybody has access to great public schools. Like where I was from, going to private school was strange. It was either going to be the military one or the other one. No shade to these schools. They both were great schools, but usually the parents were taking you out of one of our schools because of discipline problems. Yes, same. So I was like, private school? What did you bring it all into? Exactly. So it was huge. And I bring that up because it was constantly fluctuating whether I was popular or not popular. But even when I was not popular, there's another table of people that I could go still hang out with. I never felt alone. Like my awesome step-sons were in smaller private schools and they did great and their schools are great. But when you go through inevitably any period where out of the blue, these kids, they don't like you because your pants today. There's nowhere to go. If 10 of 12 kids don't like you on Monday. Yeah, horrible. You're pursuing on grotto. Yeah, I'd be in tears because this group was calling me thunder thighs, which happened a lot. But then it was, I know. All the teachers though would say like, wait till you get in the real world. You know, the one where you'd have like five exams on the same day. Backpacks with so many books that like you're falling over. Stressing out over your grades, then getting called thunder thighs at gym class and having to change in front of everyone. And they're like, wait till you get in the real world. I have news for kids. There is nothing. If you're being bullied right now, what's the awesome like bully slogan they're trying to get out there? It gets better. It does. Nothing will ever be. Yeah. My apologies to those who've had horrible trauma after school, but I think you know what I'm talking about. That's almost the utility of it, right? It's like, if you can make it through there, man, it doesn't get harder. You're never in a job that's that insane with like the clicks within a job or anything else. Although there still are. Let's face it. There are, but it's not. You were just talking about the good tables and the bad tables at an awards ceremony. It's like, are we still doing this? But the guy, but Leonardo DiCaprio didn't turn around and throw a roll at anyone. No. It does reach its apex, I think. And he did, though. You'd be like, ah, yay! Yeah. He picked me. I know that you decided to act once you were at George Mason, yeah? Mm-hmm, yeah. Then you moved to D.C. Why did you move to D.C.? Well, I went to George Mason University. I did not do any research on your schools like you're supposed to. I was very concerned about debt. I had an insane paranoid fear of debt. I don't know. I must have heard or read somewhere sometime that school loan debt or credit card debt. I think I put something on layaway once. Remember layaway? I don't even know if they still have that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kmart had layaway. And had to pay the interest on it. I just paid six times more for this thing. Like, it freaked me out so badly. And I was already thinking, at the time, before I went to college, I was thinking, I'm going to try to make a living as a painter. And I was like, I'm screwed if I come out of there with debt. Like, how the hell is that going to work? Yes. So I did. Didn't apply to where I wanted to go. I wanted to go to NYU. I wanted to go to SCAD. I wanted to go to San Francisco Art Institute, Chicago Art Institute. But I was terrified of two things. One, if I didn't get in, then I've been fooling myself that I'm good enough at art, that I'm special in any way, that I'm going to be able to make a living at this. And two, the cost of it. My dad was definitely on the last parts of his alcoholism. And my dad was awesome until he wasn't I understood that it was a very real threat that he might not be able to help me pay for this very, very soon. My mom was very supportive of me going to school, but wasn't in a financial place to help. So George Mason was considered one of the best public schools in Virginia. My friend, Julio, who was one of my best friends, her older sister was a super cool gal, just like my sister was. And she drove a Honda Prelude. Oh, yeah, those are cool. And she knew all the words to all the Duran Duran songs. I like her. She had a really cool asymmetrical cut. And she always knew everything cool before anybody else. And she went to George Mason. So I was like, obviously, this school is cool. Never visited, I've never been there, nothing. You knew all you needed to know. She went there. But that's how most people are making their college decision. It's financial, first and foremost, and like proximity. You know somebody. You know somebody that's like, sure, that's my option. Oh, they did it. If I had gone to an art conservatory program, I wouldn't have ever admitted because I was terrified. And again, like sometimes I was popular. I'm not saying like I never was, although it imprinted on me how ridiculous and trivial it is, what's popular and what isn't. Because it would just be like I changed my hair and then they liked me in eighth grade. And then ninth grade, something went wrong with, I don't know, some jeans I was wearing. And then it was boo again. It's so ridiculous. Shaving was a big step forward in one period because I was being called hairy girl. Oh, I was also called woolly mammoth, but that was for my arms. So then I did have to shave my arms. You weren't an acting group called woolly mammoth, no? What was it called? Oh, wow. That was a real ding, ding, ding moment. Yeah, yeah. But I would have never admitted or had the chance to take an acting class. If I hadn't been in a BA program, if I had gone to just a painting school, it wouldn't have occurred to me. Because at George Mason, you had to take another class in the arts that was not within your major. I think two, actually. So I took like a dance class that was really fun. And I was like, well, I'll just take a basic acting class. But it was completely outside of anything of anybody I knew to make your living as an actor. Yeah. At the time, I thought you live in Hollywood and you know Hollywood people. Or, and let's face it, if you look back at like 80s American television and movies, or you look like a model. And I was neither of those things. So I was like, I don't even want to tell people. It would be akin to saying, I think I'm a supermodel. Right. It's just like, I want to be an actor. Very tall poppy to think you could be an actor. Yes. I also didn't understand the craft to it. I was obsessed with film and television, constantly doing anything I could to earn more TV time. And I knew, how come this person's believable and that person? Is it just magic fairy dust? Anything would be Arthur. I was like, how come I believe Maude? But I don't believe this person. Thankfully, my first acting class was all script analysis, all technique. No feel good emotions, kind of like ethereal stuff. Took all those classes later. But it was the first time, and it was Lenny Ray Buck. It was the first time that I understood, oh, this is something you can put your head down and work hard at and get better. I was like, I can do that. I can't do anything about a lot of other stuff. Right. But I know how to do it. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I know how to put my head down and do my work. Right. Right. Right. So, D.C. was just closest, and they had a theater scene. To me, it might as well have been Manhattan, because I'd never been in any kind of big city. I think it was my first semester, because it was still a fine arts class, and we did field trips to galleries and museums. I thought it was a city. Nick at Night used to be, you're too young for this, but you remember, Nick at Night used to be old sitcoms playing late at night. Yeah, block party. It wasn't kids programming. Yeah. So, I remember watching that girl and being like, I'm going to live in a big city. Yeah, yeah. That's where the artists are. Yeah. And so, that's what D.C. was to me. And, in fact, I still love D.C. I still think it's some of the best theater in the world. I think my first play that I saw there was at Willie Mammoth Theater for an acting class assignment. Blown away. We didn't go to any theater growing up. School field trip, you were forced to watch some touring production of Julius Caesar or something, but that was about it. The Willie Mammoth Theater was all new plays, often provocative plays. I literally didn't know that there are plays that could speak to you in the same contemporary way. that a great film or television show is. I was just going to say, when you realize there's modern plays, when you're a kid, the only thing you're exposed to is like, it's almost like a history lesson. Like you're going to see, you know. And there were friends, there's a lot of classical theater in DC as well. And some of those productions were gorgeous, but I immediately gravitated towards the new plays. They were always doing super dark comedies, twisted, which is still pretty much my jam. How long did you stay in DC doing theater? About 11 years. Wow. After I graduated, I started working professionally while I was still in college. You were doing industrials and stuff, right? Yeah, there's no agents in that town. You make your little postcards yourself and you start a non-union theater. And I would offer to usher for free if I could watch the plays over and over, which is a huge way to learn. Backstage running crew, volunteer box office, volunteer reading stage directions for new plays in a basement. Just so that I wouldn't be a complete stranger when I dropped by my postcard for my. Little show I'm doing with six friends in an alley somewhere. Yeah. Eventually, maybe the city paper, which was kind of like Village Voice, would come review it. And then that might get you in a slightly better non-union theater. And then eventually a union theater giving you a tiny part. And then it took a long time to get an equity card. Yeah. So if you spent 11 years in DC, next up is New York. Then I went to New York. That's a long time to be somewhere. And then eventually, what was the fire that you're like, you know what? I'm now going to New York. I'm trying to make sure I did the math right too, because then New York was two and a half years before I got a sitcom that flew me out to LA. I was just doing the math the other day that I've been doing this as a job for about 30, 33 years, which is crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Longer than you've not done this job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. And I love it. The exact same. The exact same as I did the very first day. Wowzers. I'm impressed with your stamina. Love it. But was there some opportunity up there? Did you follow a lover? If anything, I had to go backwards. A lot of the. Context just didn't translate. I was working consistently in DC theater. I was able to quit my day job, which is such a huge mile post to get past. It wasn't about this town's too small. There were still people that still are some of my acting idols. And I wasn't yet playing leads. I looked younger than I was and was a very physical actor. And so was frequently cast as like teenagers and 20 year olds as well. Which aren't generally the leads. Yeah, but they are generally the, really fun part. I was often the character part, not romantic lead, which then went triple fold when I decided to do TV and film. I guess I went to New York. Do you know what it was? Is a lot of the plays that Willie Mammoth would develop with the playwright often, we would help them flush out characters, would then go to New York and New York would not take our cast. Sometimes not even let you audition for it. It needed to be a famous person or somebody that has Juilliard in the bio. Or NYU. And it really bummed me out. And I took, I took buses up there to see these plays and they were great. And there was great people. There was no, you know, arms folded. Like I did that better. It was always like they were great, but I just thought, well, I want access to all the theaters. Yeah. And I thought, might as well go now. And was the first, you got an understudy role in a Broadway show, 45 seconds. What is it? You've really memorized all your homework. It was so good. It was called, it is called, it's a play called 45 Seconds from Broadway. 45 Seconds from Broadway. The reason I'm stumbling is because everyone called it 45 Seconds on Broadway because it closed so fast. Oh, okay. So that's a clever joke. It's the only Neil Simon play to ever be a flop. Oh, wow. I think it was his last play that he wrote too. And it was his love letter to the Edison Diner that was across the street from the Richard Rogers Theater where we were doing it. But also to be fair, we previewed right after 9-11. Oh, not great. Not ideal. Yeah. Not an ideal. So there was that. Rough time. Yeah, I was going to rehearsals crossing Times Square, not a soul. One of the weirdest things you've ever seen. No one on the subway. Miller Sky style. Yeah, we were still being told on the radio, don't go to public gathering places yet. They still hadn't figured out. They still haven't figured out who was sending anthrax to everybody. It was a crazy time. And Jerry Zaks was directing and he's notorious for, even though I was an understudy, that you have to be at every single rehearsal, even if they're not your scenes. And you also needed to be at every single performance. It used to be you would show up and if your actor that you're understudying is there and capable, you can leave. Sometimes you'd have to be on a pager maybe, but you could go home or go to a restaurant. No. Really quick. I don't know anything about the history of theater. Has that happened where someone like twisted an ankle and then mid-show we swap them out? We should find out. I'm sure it's happened. It has to. It has to have happened. Jerry used to tell us because we were all in the basement, full costume and makeup, waiting and you're listening to the monitor and he would tell us if somebody falls, trying to make their entrance or in the middle of a line, I expect you to finish the line. Right. So we were down there like, and if anybody just did like a dramatic pause one night that they didn't normally do, you'd shit your pants. We were dying. What brings you to L.A.? A sitcom called I'm With Her that was loosely based on Chris Henshie's real life of dating Brooke Shields. Wow. What if a regular guy had to date the most famous, most beautiful woman in the world? Also regular guy in quotes. He's also pretty famous in some ways. He is now, but then they met. He was a writer on Suddenly Susan. Wow. And Marco Pinat was the other producer on it. Brooke was, she said this publicly, she was going to play herself. Oh. But she got pregnant and Terry Polo played the famous person. David Sutcliffe was the boyfriend in the show. He's a teacher though. And then Danny Comden and I were the fuck up character part. And so that brings you to L.A. Mm-hmm. It's so encouraging to see someone stick with it and then have massive success later. Yeah. What is quite intriguing to me is someone who battles the war of attrition with endless dedication and then probably what I'm most interested in is like, there has to be moments where you're like, you know what? Fuck this. I'm going back to theater. Oh, I'm doing this. Weathering all of those start stops and getting excited and fuck, now we're back here. That's a grueling experience that takes a lot of stamina and resolve. And I just wonder like, what was your North Star through all that? The move from L.A. to New York, and having to really almost totally start over with casting director getting to know me and crashing auditions, couldn't get representation because I'd never even had an agent and now I need one. Those were some tough years where you start thinking back up playing a little bit or no, no, never. No. Okay. The only thing I thought was it's possible I'm going to have to get a day job again. And I've thought that at multiple times years after that as well. I lost my insurance one time while in LA, it was just because this show didn't go. And that was back when we had a pilot season. So if you didn't get cast in something, then you most likely weren't going to have a job for another 10 months. Yeah. I lost my insurance. I was like, shit, I'm going to have to get a day job. I lived very, very, very frugally in hopes that I wouldn't have to get a day job. But that's all I ever thought was, I wonder if this is going to have to be something I do in my off time, like plays that are only on weekends or something, but give it up now. You had a lot more moments of encouragement. I guess for me personally, I had been here for eight years and auditioning all the time for commercials and I couldn't get them. I couldn't get commercials tried, tried for years. Everyone at the Groundlings was like in 12 commercials and they had fucking condos and cars and shit. And I do remember when the punked audition came around, it was like, you had to improv. Okay. You had to be great at improv. Right. And you had to not be afraid of confrontation. And I did say to myself, there's never going to be one more on a platter for you. If you cannot book this, we have to get a little more realistic about the future. And that's the moment I think that's a little more specific. I mean, it was like, you can lose faith in yourself. I did. And I used to really beat myself up too. For years. I actually don't think it was until Better Call Saul because a friend of mine was like, you have to stop this or I'm going to stop it for you. I would save the sides from every part I didn't get. Oh, wow. And then every now and then, if I was getting really down on myself, I'd say, well, this weekend, you're going to go over all those sides and try to figure out what you fucked up oh my god here we go the masochism i can still relate to that yeah so it got scary and also they would sometimes call me in and i'm just trying to make the role three-dimensional that's what i believe my job is but i had lost weight i was blonde blue-eyed so suddenly i'm being sent in for girlfriend roles where i'm really not supposed to be making them interesting that is a problem right but i got told in my face so many times not hot enough to actually be the romantic lead but not ugly enough to be the character part there's nothing i can relate to more than i feel like the purgatory of being it was like i wasn't character looking enough i am not good looking enough to get the lead of any of these things that shit was hard yes it was very real very hard i got walked out of an audition once with a casting director and the fact that she said this with a tone that like she's being an ally made it worse we're walking out and she goes you're obviously the best person for the job but you and i both know they're gonna have to get somebody to do it for you i was like am i supposed to not what am i supposed to argue that i'm hot i was like i don't even know i just shut up oh yeah yeah it can really do a number on you really quick back to dad how aware were you that he was dying of alcoholism not as aware as i would have thought it was my sister says she knew before we were told i had to be told i just thought he was very moody he was towards the last five years of it extremely irritable about things that seemed ludicrous like how noisy it was in shonies yeah oh shonies love the story if you're pissed at shonies something's wrong because they got a great sale exactly yeah my dad's was more madman style where it just was normal to have martinis at lunch okay and then came home and had drinks is that a problem yeah monica's asking for a friend i'm sort of living that life currently so did you have any thoughts about like whether you should or shouldn't drink didn't drink from 19 to 32 wow okay yeah there you go and it wasn't so much like oh my god i'm terrified i'll be come an alcoholic or die from it to be honest it was me truly believing and i still do that my dad was covering up some emotions and feelings and thoughts that needed professional help yeah and so for me i thought oh i want to make sure that i'm because i was drinking a lot in high school that was the other thing is we all knew the kids that got to college who weren't allowed to do anything and then they went cuckoo town yeah sleeping with everybody drinking everything but i was my mom was really great with not overreacting to me experimenting with different things and so i didn't go crazy when i got to college but i do remember after he died thinking i want to make sure i can develop other tools to deal with things that i already knew were problems i already had panic attacks i already had depression problems i had anxiety problems extreme social anxiety good for you at 19 for being able to realize but i waited another 10 plus years to get professional help and unfortunately wish i had done that much sooner yes and when i don't stick with my professional help i do start drinking too much not like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah this is for the wrong reasons this is not to enjoy a glass of wine this is to not think the things you're thinking numb out yeah one of my big things for a long time before i got any help basically what turned out to be a lot of ocd behavior and i totally thought i was covering this shit yeah and from that same play at 45 seconds from broadway another one of the understudies why can't i think of his name right now so lovely he had a very big brother kind of energy all i was doing was coming to work and we were understudies in the basement together and rehearsals that i didn't know him socially we never went out anywhere and he just says to me one day and i still don't know what he was watching or witnessing i don't know what he was watching or witnessing i don't know what he was doing but he just goes hey i know it's none of my business but i just wanted you to know that you don't have to live the way you're living and i was like what i don't what what what and he goes i don't mean anything by it's just i know a lot of great therapists and wow stuff and you don't have to and i was like this must be showing did you get defensive and hate him or were you okay that's good for you because i had been pretty much forced to see therapists before if your dad dies while you're in college it was like mandatory any introduction i had had with everything from alan on to therapy had been forced with threat of punishment yeah that's not the way and was an environment that was extraordinarily unhelpful for a long time that was why i wouldn't get help in any of those areas and then thankfully when he suggested this therapist that i went to she was a dream it was literally like do you know the first time somebody smart and compassionate that's not your friend says oh that must have been terrible oh that's a horrible thing to say to a kid i'm sorry you went through it and you're just like yeah i'm not crazy yes i'm not crazy yes you're just waiting to find out you're not crazy do you have any ticks uh i was counting things and i still do it do you know what an oiler circuit is oiler circuit e-u-l-e-r no tell me that oh it's like a vocal warm-up no so i had to take one math class i'm not good at math and it makes me sad but i had to take a math class for college i thought in my head even though malcolm gladwell's books weren't out yet that's what i thought the class was going to be like behavioral statistics yeah yeah fun it was not it was hard to shit but one of the things we learned was an oiler circuit that's an equation i'm not exactly sure how they explain what it measures but the most famous example of it is the snow plows in new york have to use oiler circuits it is to figure out the most efficient way to do a route so you're not backtracking i was fascinated by this yeah and then later when the ocd was happening yeah and i'm living in manhattan and i'm leaving from l train in brooklyn to go into the city you got to be able to check the right pay phones that you know are working to see if you have any messages to see if you have an audition you also need to not get very far away from the equity building which is the only free place you can go to the bathroom because i can afford to buy things every time you go in somewhere or barnes and noble you're like an amazon robot in the warehouse trying to figure out but then i'm going to go buy food emporium because i also need groceries but that's going to have to come with me because otherwise it'll go bad but i don't want to carry my dry clean i would sit and try to figure out the most efficient route and trains and it got so bad i needed black and white answers nothing could be gray or nuanced yeah and i would tell myself a smarter person can figure this out and so it got to the point where i never left the house i never did it not never but that day when i was supposed to run errands none of them because it was overwhelming because i can't figure out the perfect route to get the route i'm not sure that that's the perfect route i'm maybe or what if the g train would be better over and over and over and over and over and over anything i was reading i would read over and over and over because a smarter person would have gleaned more from it oh my gosh i would have loved to have talked to you in this period it pops up yeah okay good but yeah i mean those were things too that i was telling the therapist and she was like okay so you know that's not very productive i was like what do you mean everyone else is just reading it once it answers when you are looking at the sides over and over it's like there's like a compulsion about you being bad or wrong or not smart or something and none of which my dad when drinking obviously with his job he could find your jugular very easily oh yeah he never screamed he was not a rager but he would go after your intelligence it was his number one thing to do i would be to tell my sister and i that we're not smart enough what you tell these children and now that i'm a parent i'm not going to lie to you i'm not going to lie to you but i do think like i don't know i'm trying to imagine what the person thinks in that moment they're quote helping their kids with right you a state, you can go like, well, their goal probably wasn't to destroy my confidence and my intelligence. It probably was to tell me that is the most valuable commodity and you got to be on it. I don't know. You wonder what they were thinking in this warped mind. When he was in a healthier state, he would say things like really wanting me to make sure that I am independent as a woman and I have financial independence and that I am only ever with a man by choice, not because I need to be. And so I think they probably went together. Right. And then they just get kind of, yeah. Yeah. The underlying anxiety is what if I don't get to do this? Yeah. I want to do one thing on this planet and I might not be able to get to do it. And what do we do now? And knowing that is the case for most people. Exactly. That is legitimately, statistically the case. And as far as the narrative of how people look at what's going on with me now, I'm very proud that a number of. Of people in our business have told me and very happy have told me that it gives them hope, not hope to stick with it. And some of these people are actors and actors that have been working a long time, but that the storytelling world is opening up a little bit for you to not have to be 25 to be the lead of a show. Yes. Yeah. Pluribus did very well with 18 to 25 year old males, which they keep thinking only want to watch a certain thing. And I'm like, I don't know. Apparently if you build it, they will come. I'm not saying I'm why they're watching it, but Vince is right. The writing is strong. If the writing is strong, like they don't care if it's not a 20 year old. Well, no, what you're experiencing right now does not happen in 1980. No, it doesn't happen in 1990. It doesn't, you know, this is a new phenomenon that you are a woman not in her twenties that is carrying a show is fucking awesome and should be encouraging to all people doing all things. Thank you. I mean, Vince would tell you stories like, you know, everybody turned Breaking Bad down. So Vince wouldn't be who Vince is now and being able to greenlight this show that everybody was. Like, how the hell do you even categorize this? What are we even saying this show is? It's a science teacher that gets cancer. And because he thinks he's going to die, he becomes a meth kingpin. And then the whole thing's depressing. They were like, what? Yeah. What are you talking? Oh, and it's a middle-aged dude. Is that fine? So obviously Saul's like the first big chunk of bedrock, right? You're on that for seven years. I think it's six seasons over a period of seven years. Does it take you a while to settle into that, to trust that? This rollercoaster might have found some kind of stability and I can trust that I'll be okay now. How long does that take? That part does take a while. And it was two things going on. One was an immediate realization that is not justified, but it is what it is, of the way people, fans, and journalists and media treat you if you're doing what is considered prestige drama versus sitcoms. It was a very sharp change. It was like, because we all know if you're really doing comedy and sitcom content, if you're doing it really well, it should look like you're not doing any work at all. And it's a shit ton of work. But I don't think one is easier than the other, but it was just very interesting to me that suddenly they were talking to me about craft. And I was like, oh, I think I'm being taken seriously as an actor in a way that I haven't been since I was on stage. When I was on stage, I was. And I did comedy and drama back and forth all the time, and it was not an issue. But then you really get pigeonholed. But then you're, you're lucky because your friend right next to you isn't getting called for anything. She's like, don't be so sad. You're called for another sitcom, dude. And I wasn't. I loved them, by the way. So there was that realization. And also, I was a huge Breaking Bad fan. I understood that this writing immediately, even in the first script, I was like, oh, these people like grow and change. You know, I watched Breaking Bad. And even my first conversations with Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould and the other actors, they reminded me so much of theater, deep deconstruction of scenes and rehearsals and really breaking things down. So I understood that something about the work had changed. And I was also being given a platform to show more nuanced work. But I also would always have in the back of my head, what if I don't ever get cast again? What if this is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you become petrified that you're gonna be written off the show. And then when it was ending, you know, and I was lucky enough to be considered for some other shows, but longing for the environment that I knew that was not just what I thought was some of the best writing I've ever read in my life, but his environment that he creates the set. It is like having 300 people every day, you coming in with something that you're like, I'm not sure I can pull off this scene. This is harder than I've ever and all 300 people are like, Monica is the one that can do it. You're about to ace it. Let's go fucking do this. Like it's crazy uplifting. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Well, A, I don't know anything about how Vince works, but I read enough. Interviews of you today that I learned this. I admire so much people who don't claim to know the answers to everything. And it sounds very much when you and Bob are talking with one another in an interview about the process, what I heard, maybe I misread this, but it sounds like he's fine with saying, I don't really know where this goes. I don't know what this show is yet, or that this person with Jesse is going to die in the first episode, or, you know, all these things like the flexibility, the amount of confidence that takes to let everyone explore together and find out together is like so rare. And I feel like it must be so special. It is special. And yet you're looking, I'm going like, I know that there's a genius part going on in there because clearly you do have an architecture where the tiniest thing back in season two was paying off in season seven. And I've asked him about those things, like the stuffed animal floating in the pool. And I'm like, you had to have known where it comes. And he's like, I didn't. He said, he keeps saying he likes to paint himself into a corner. He was like, he wouldn't suggest it for anybody. It's a terrible way to write. That is a genius. But there is an architecture of Pluribus. There was an architecture. I mean, like Better Call Saul is a prequel. So you already know there's certain architecture that has to show up and be the way it is. But he does. And he did say Jesse was going to be dead in like one season. My character was just going to move away in one season. Michael McKean's character, Chuck, was going to be the totally sympathetic invalid that stays home. Jimmy would become Saul Goodman, complete transformation by the end of season one. And the only way you saw his soft side was because he had to take care of his invalid brother. But Michael McKean was playing it with such gravitas that he was like, this is like Shakespearean, these two brothers, the way their relationship is. And then he started liking what I was doing without dialogue, but just being in Jimmy's presence and stuff. I don't know. So he just likes to plant a lot of seeds and see what's blooming. God, so cool. I'm sure you've talked about this more than you want to, but I am fascinated. You guys all live together on Saul? You did? This seems crazy. They're all in one house. But several cast members. Patrick, you and? Patrick, Bob and me live together for most of the seasons. Wow. What is that? Tell me about that. Is it Melrose Place? Is it so fun? Does it make me an allocation? No, and everyone's like, oh, you should have filmed it and made a whole second show. And I was like, people would be so bored. Like it is a nerd-a-thon happening is what's going on. And like my only concern, cause Patrick and Bob lived together first, I think second season. And I had said no because I got along with them so well. And both of them are like my brothers, but that doesn't mean we'll be good roommates. And also I'm freakish about my alone time. Yeah. And I have two sides of me that are very extrovert introverts. Well, I was going to say your job is extroversion. You need to get home and recharge. Yeah. Which often involves like Lego sets and staring at a wall in a corner. Redoing that row every fucking 12 minutes. We always got places though that had areas you could be alone and then more communal areas. And it worked out great. We often didn't have the same hours, but I don't know, like you ended up with tons of time alone if you wanted it. And also all three of us are close enough that you can say for real, like, dude, I don't want to talk. But we also knew it just ended up that if you're in the kitchen, you need to be prepared for the fact that you might be asked to read lines. If you want to get your food and then like move to another room, that's fine. If you hang in here, you're going to be running the scene a few times. That's rad as well, though. It started out of necessity because especially Bob had so many lines, but that show had very naturalistic moments in the style of the acting, but it actually was a bit outside of naturalism. The writing, like people wax poetic. It was extremely verbal and you did it to the letter. Monologuing, you're right. Yeah. You did not change a single word. And so we would drill and drill and drill and drill and drill lines because we wanted all the takes to be about finding performance because Vince and Peter and Tom and Jen and all the other great writers on it. You could have an eight to 12 page scene of just two people talking and the map of what's going on underneath could be done a thousand different ways. And they're interested in all thousands, which is so fun as an actor, but you don't want lines to be your problem. You need to know the backwards course. So we would run them and run them and run them and drill them and drill. And you even drilled lines, like if Patrick had scenes with people that weren't one of us, we would still just drill those. And we always invited guest stars over. Yeah. To do rehearsals so that they felt comfortable. It's just a while to have a 12 page scene that just doesn't exist in any other. We still do eight pages, six pages scenes all the time and you shoot them for the whole day, but that's also the visual language that's likes, like I was trying to explain to my mom the other day. I said, when you're watching a show and again, it's not good or bad. It's just different. It's the style that he wants. The visual vocabulary wants. If you start paying attention to how many times you think that camera has moved, ours is a lot. And I know he said this publicly. If you let him shoot for as long as he wanted to, he wishes you would never cut back to the same angle twice. Whoa. so bazillion setups a bazillion you're doing this you know because it's here and then it's here and then it's here never indulgent though he always says he's not a good director explaining things it's not true it's so much fun all the directors and writers that he hires have such specific interesting things they want you to try you never feel like you're just being exploited we must talk pluribus again i know this is an annoying question but i i have to do it because kristen and i debated so much i mean first and foremost obviously i fucking love that show congratulations my god i wanted to mention too that you were nominated you won a critic's choice for saul you were spectacular on that show you were nominated a couple times for emmys right yeah pluribus we have debated so much while watching it if it is a metaphor for something i know this is annoying i know people drive me nuts about this i'm not asking you to tell me if what it's a metaphor but i am curious has it been expressed you've been asked to tell me what it's a metaphor but i am curious has it been expressed you if it is a metaphor for something no what has been expressed to me that i do believe is sincere is that vince wants it to be able to receive all of the interpretations yeah they're all correct he is staying true to his very specific personal unique exploration of questions he's grappling with about what it means to be human i understand why people are like well it's obviously in years ago when he started writing this but it wasn't a debate topic right no then other people are like it's about covid it's about isolation hadn't happened yet yeah yeah people are really i like the ruling it out part but then i read one word that i felt like confirmed my hunch which was vince sometimes feels like he's a misanthrope he has said publicly there is a large part of him in carol i mean that's why art is so awesome you do project onto it you see confirmation i do think there's this kind of fantasy collectivism that if we all just behave like name the group we idolize for being so cooperative and so collective that that would somehow be a utopia and i very much think that's bullshit and so of course that's what i projected onto it i'm like this is somehow a comment on this you know that makes sense yeah okay do you get to think about it in your own way do you yourself reflect on it pretty much after the fact yeah i try to keep my head in the game while i'm doing it that i have the great luxury of carol can't figure out what's going on when people are like do you know the actual signals work and i was like not supposed to yeah so i don't bother ram space full i'm just playing when i play well it wouldn't be useful to you as the actor in the scene except you have a distrust and a distaste for what you're observing and i think there you would be free to assign what it is you hate about this thing not that you need to go publicly i mean it's kind of almost the way you talk about like doing comedy and for the most part keeping it real and the stakes real is what's funnier yeah you can't know it's funny but i've also done comedies with people who cannot get the rhythm of the comedy they're playing it for real for like they legit are doing it like a mike lee film and i'm like it's very hard to explain like no the stakes are real but you have to be aware of the piece you're in yes and so it's the same kind of thing where a oh i get the point we're making here though uh-huh and another part knows that this is funny sometimes the funny was on a page sometimes the funny is something we just like the pilot when i'm talking to the tv if it's kept reminding me i want this person to be an absolute reluctant hero that is a real person in the middle of such a non-real circumstance and so he would remind me like the more i drilled down on okay what would somebody actually do and carol has different flaws and skills and strengths that she's not going to be able to do and so i'm like okay what would somebody do and i do but just thinking about like i don't even know i still feel flustered and so i was so flustered talking in the phone and trying to piece together like am i talking to a person through my tv but it's on the phone like i took the phone away to motion about the crazy kids and then realized like oh he can't hear me unless the phone's here and then started just dying laughing and then he kept that so we were always looking for comedy born out of the reality that's kind of the most rewarding right when it's like something really happened organic and only when they all cut do you recognize like oh that was fantastically preposterous but we definitely i mean the current like late nights and my cast we would have debates about stuff all the time i mean everyone was just cringing during that scene with the awesome jeff hiller when you find out that your partner secretly didn't think you were actually a good writer it's like anybody in the arts like that's your fear and your great suspicion yeah yeah it was fine yeah she knew it was popular it was like popcorn it's like uh oh yeah that was fun you know and then other times like we were constantly going back and forth about who's manipulating whom between me and zosia played by the freaking brilliant carolina because she's very protective of her character but her character has this dictum like that they have got to try to change everybody no matter how much you don't want it and that this is the loving thing to do but so would you be manipulative yeah vince would say stuff like are you being manipulative as a parent when you trick your kid into wearing a coat when it's cold outside right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but it's because it's better for them and so we were like are you and then i'm partially carol's at some point completely choosing to live in delusion when she starts just playing house with her yeah and i was like how much does she believe am i manipulating her to get information is it matt cradle my camera i can't remember one of the crew members was like but in reality aren't all romantic relationships aren't we all manipulating each other right because you're all trying to get something you want to be loved back yes yeah or you want monogamy or like whatever it is and i was like okay that's depressing it is depressing i don't like the way that's phrased but we are making choices to get as actors we all know that we're supposed to assign the reason for every single line because in reality that is what your brain is doing every millisecond whether you think you have intentions or not yep yes it's a lot to break down yeah I'm constantly evaluating how could i make the other person in the room more comfortable which would make you more comfortable it's still ego yeah yeah it is yeah you'd be more comfortable i did learn that one in al-anon if this you think you're just being such a good person that i constantly need to go make sure the person is not being talked to yeah he's included in the conversation and i need to just make sure everybody is okay obviously because i was raised in a house where something might blow up and it is that's right if you regulate them you'll be regulated yeah yeah yeah okay you won everything congratulations we happen to be there we happen to be there we were at the globes when you won yeah yeah yeah yeah i was shocked yeah yeah yeah that's fun and other you want yeah you want everything yeah yeah yeah you uh the critics choice she fucked everyone up came in like a um wrecking ball we just saw miley cyrus top of mind i heard that was a really fun show okay we're gonna talk about stick because you're so much fun season two you guys know all those guys right i know owen enough and he was one of my greatest friends and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh sorry listener but i memorized an entire interview of his in playboy magazine like line for a line was this during your ocd days uh just he like no other human being just chatting he talks as if he has written it over the course of hours he's just referencing this dog book you read about different breeds and that's coming up he's very smart he's deceptively genius level smart right yes and i mean that in the best way yeah that's how you want someone to be smart also his speech inflection sounds spacey yes and yet he is not and also none of what he's doing is just it's just my natural way of being on camera it is all thought out he is very very intelligent the whole family is fucking bonkers but yeah him mark maron and timothy oliphant uh what a charming motherfucker yeah we loved him i had no idea he was that funny i didn't know he started in stand-up oh he's so funny so funny also we interviewed him our pants fell off i'm like this is the most attractive human being on planet earth but all three of those gentlemen rex as well actually all four of them are very very funny people in very different ways and i was just having a blast and jason keller the showrunner is so nice i'm obsessed with judy greer i wish i had more stuff with her you don't hang out with judy more i'm going to now we have the thing and i send her pictures of fountain pens whenever i find them anywhere because i know she collects them but i'm obsessed with her and peter and lily and everybody on that show it's just that the way the story part that i was in i'm more with the guys i had a blast and when i'd be right to guess what a perfect thing to do in between pluribus it was fun i find pluribus very funny but it's not the same as like and this isn't rom-com light but it has rom-com elements the part i'm playing in a stick but it also had like beautiful pivotal sweet moments that owen is also brilliant at it was really fun to lean into comedy comedy yeah and i would imagine that so much of pluribus and this was bob's fascination when he interviewed you was there's so much alone time yeah which can be terrifying for an actor you don't have dialogue as a way to convey you don't have another person there to react to it's just you thinking that's a big undertaking but i saw breaking bad and i saw better call sol it's not like i have never seen him take mike ermantrout taking a car apart for 30 minutes and call it a scene like he does that shit i knew it right yeah i didn't see this much coming from me yeah because i didn't even know where we were going in the show but it goes back to what we were saying a minute ago but like i now know that he trusts me and i trust him to just think the thoughts when i get an eight page scene from him that has no dialogue i know he wants just as much storytelling as if there was dialogue the whole time so i'm going through and writing out what i'm thinking you start from like all right it says i wake up on the couch no wake up the other one it was uh i remember the one i was looking at she wakes up on the floor she's drank too much yeah so immediately i know not capable of sleeping in my wife's bed and then i'm waking up and i drank too much it was probably a hellish night that tells you something about how you physically would feel and then vince and i were talking like what do you think that first moment is and i said i was thinking about it and i know that in my life the times when something horrible has happened and specifically grief or tragedy there's that little tiny twilight moment when you wake up the next day where it might not be true it might have been a dream and you really are hoping and praying was it just a bad dream and so we made sure that her body helen played by miriam shore who might just absolutely adore she's a national treasure if you get to meet her but that her body was there so that when i turn my head it all like comes crashing down and then it's like okay now think that that's about what are you gonna do i still don't know if these others eat people zombies i don't know what they do do they have guns do they have lasers she has no idea so i gotta hide this body like do i bury her i don't know how to bury a body like how am i gonna move the body it's like okay now we're gonna go upstairs and get this blanket and then put the thoughts into like why this blanket why this chest has it ever been used before what does it smell like is it hers is it her grandma's is it my grandma's yes so then my guess is on stick you can trust that the dynamic will inform a lot of stuff yes that's kind of got to be a fun reprieve it is it was a lot of fun and then being back together with rex from my better call sol days yeah he's so awesome and that comes out early november is what i read but do we know what is early with that we're getting close four okay and i think they're doing two i think apple normally does that two episodes first sure sure i had the best time i just really i hope people and i got to take a bunch of golf lessons again i took a couple golf lessons to do swinging and pluribus when she goes out trying to have a good time by herself yeah but i had to like really look like i could golf this time so i took a bunch of golf lessons i liked it i was never on a course all they needed from me is to get the most professional because my character is supposed to have been like she almost could have gone pro and does swing coaching for pros they needed my swing to be as expert as it could so i was only in a simulator for my class like i have no idea which direction the ball would go if you put me on not your problem not my problem no someone else's problem well ray this has been so fun so much fun everyone wants stick november 4th and then you resume season two here soon right shooting get where do you guys shoot i have the first script new mexico he just loves new mexico he's the same cruise over and over as well that's a thing for him that's very nice the first script is bananas is my report i was like what i read it but this felt was it hyperbole did it crash apple that's what we were told wow i don't have figures or you know any documents to tell me that that is why but yes it crashed when it came out that's amazing we were in london doing a press junket right after something else and vince and i do not read reviews but we knew we had to go in these rooms the next day mostly he and i together we were both trying to get our fellas just like give me a general idea so that i don't walk into a room where everyone's like hi right you know and i was like at first you don't think vince would care he's like i don't know if they're gonna say like dude stick to breaking bad what the hell you know yeah he's always wanted to go back to do a sci-fi thing he's obsessed with twilight zone you know which has so many elements in this and stuff and people but yeah he was worried i definitely was worried so they did come and tell us they were like well apple had to shut down because there were so many downloads and then they said it was all great reviews yeah it said it broke all ratings and the platform itself was the sentence i wrote i was like is that literal love to hear it all right well ray such a delight um long overdue everyone watch those things please come back thank you thank you he is an armchair expert but he makes mistakes all the time thank god monica's here did you go number two just now i did okay well it's in a water balloon oh good yeah yeah um well that's a ding ding ding did you go number one two i went number one okay we're in between for the listener we're in between armchair anonymous and fact check we had a bathroom break there was a bathroom break yeah this isn't just a random yeah unsolicited and you were worried you might have a number two liquid form water balloon yeah but but i was it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't which is great news but it is a ding ding ding okay ding ding ding but you know that how i take my um i take my my fiber in a unique way oh which is you know metamucil you're supposed to pour a big glass of water and then dump it in there and steer it yes it's necessary but i don't want to have that much liquid right before bed and i always remember to have it right before bed so i just take a big spoonful i put it in my mouth and then i quickly have to rinse i put water in there i swish it around really quick and try to swish it around really quick and try to swish it around really quick and try to swallow it but it does sometimes congeal in my throat yeah this is a horrible it's a terrible technique but i keep using it for whatever reason but that is at play with this previous number two i sometimes when i have a big dose of the fiber i think i'm gonna have a water balloon but it's not okay i just your insides could explode if you're not doing doing it correctly it was the first person who od'd on metamucil no peoples have exploded they have yeah you know so much about medical history i know i know i know it's always impressive um okay so your number two is a ding ding ding because i decided i was gonna reveal that in this episode um i had to number two during the recording yes okay and you can probably if you watch closely you can probably tell when things turn oh really there was a specific moment it turned i mean yeah at some point i was like oh oh oh okay and you were doing a lot of pinching and kegel exercise you know when it kind of comes in phases yeah waves waves yeah waves so not particles waves depending on if you're looking at it where the observer is yeah we make such smart jokes i mean you really gotta be a liberal arts educated oh my god we haven't said liberal arts education a long time ellenic studies wow if you're in a day one armchair you're old because we've been listening to the show for so long yeah then you know speaking of that actually yeah i mean this is early to announce it but whatever we're talking about this yeah we are going to do a really fun very intimate live event in la for christmas yeah for the holiday season yeah and we are inviting like about like 50 or so arm cherries to come for the taping yeah and it'll be really fun but we do want like real arm cherries there uh-huh so we're gonna do a secret drop of like a word i'm learning this real time with the audience yeah yeah we're gonna do a secret drop of like a word or something okay and then if you hear that then you're gonna go to the website type in the word okay and then also there's a little quiz there's like gonna be some hidden easter egg if you know you know gems at this at this event okay and so you really we need the real arm cherries there for this event and then we're gonna do a secret drop of for them to get it all okay okay you know but also if they have a good christmas story doesn't matter because we're going to interview some arm cherries that's true we are going to do like kind of a real time armchair anonymous christmas stories yes so that's fun too yes so anyway guys we'll give you more information about the word and stuff obviously that's not fully thought through what if someone wrote in the comments just one note sounds like you're trying to do a lot we are we are we just really wanted to make sure that the people who come are hardcore hardcore fans yeah yeah and we want to do something special for them yes so in order to find them it is requiring a little bit of a duck duck goose chase if you understand that reference you're in you're in you're one of the 50 or 60 yeah exactly um anyway so keep your eyes and ears peeled for all that great it'll be really fun back to number two i thought you you didn't finish that story didn't okay so there's a moment where you start wrassling your lower gi yeah and i could feel it i was like oh no and i couldn't really see the clock because of the glare so i didn't know how much longer we had oh this so i was feeling a little and then you did keep talking and talking and i was like and i was like kind of trying to tell you with my eyes like wrap it up also you tell me to wrap it up kind of a lot i know you never so i never know it's just you're not interested in this topic or you're gonna shit your pants we need two different looks both are important okay but yeah the poop one yeah one's a creative difference one's a medical emergency and i just think we need a specific signaling to delineate the difference it was tough yeah did you have any leakage or anything no okay but i you know i barely made it you did where did you go to my house you ran you did you do a because normally the guest leaves and then we we hang out for a second we say bye and the guest left and i and i ran immediately to my house yeah the cruelty of that situation is such that you need to run and your body will not can't run you Yeah, you have to go extremely slowly in a hurry. Yeah. That's the agony. We had Halloween since we last spoke. Yes. Yes, your clown outfit was great. Thank you. It came in time. It looked historic as you sold it to me. Yeah, vintage and fashion. I just think it's weird that you and Ryan had no coordination. I didn't even know they were going to be clowns. You were both clowns and no one's ever come as a clown. And then all out of nowhere, we have two clowns. Well, we have all the Hansons were clowns. Did you know that? They were? Yeah. The whole family was clowns. I thought she was an ace of spades, like a card, a playing card. Oh, she wasn't. She wasn't? They were clowns, I promise. Okay. They told me. You would know. Yeah, because they were like, we're going as clowns. Oh. You know, it was that one thing. Yeah, Amy will be the ace of spades clown. Millie will be a ninja clown. Oh, she was also a clown. Okay. All right. The Hansons also went as clowns, different kind than me. Sad clown for Ryan. Ace of spades for Amy. No, I don't. Hers was more like a. I'm going to look right now because you're making me feel like I'm crazy, but I know they posted a picture today. Okay. And that's how I'm going to find it. And you can find it because, you know, like I'm in the Hansons group because we're all clowns. Okay. So I'm looking it up. You know, I guess you could call Amy a bit of a mime. She's not a clown. And then Millie's got blood all over her face and she's in a crop top and a mini skirt. So that's not a clown. Yes, that's a clown still. Monica, look at this photo. Dax, you're going to make Amy upset because they came as clowns. And then, no, and then, and hold on. Evie is clearly Lizzie Borden. She's got an axe. What clowns have an axe, Monica? No, mean, scary clown. She was going to be a little bit of a scary clown. Okay. So there's a sub-genre of axe wielding. I talked to them about this and they were a little. Can we call Amy? Sure. Okay. This is, we got to get it. Let me answer to this. Hi. Hi. You're on the show if that's okay. Is that okay? Oh, sure. Hi, Amy. Monica and I are in a debate here about your family's costumes. Can I apologize to you? I just want to apologize on behalf of Dax right now. Yeah. She's already apologizing on my behalf. Now, I definitely saw that Ryan was a clown and, and Monica's telling me that all of you guys were clowns, but then I was just consulting the photo and is that the position that everyone was a clown? That was the goal. Even though everyone doesn't quite look like a clown. Okay. Because Mildred has blood all over her face and she's kind of in a fun, like. She's a teenage clown. Okay. And then tell me Evie's got an axe. She's not Lizzie Borden. She wanted to be a scary ballerina clown. A scary ballerina clown. Okay. I think this is a good call, Monica. I think we can both feel good about this. Are you serious? Well, can we say. Can we say, can we admit they stretch the concept quite a bit? We got, what would, did you just say? Very much. Okay, very much. And then I thought you were like the ace of spades or something or a mime. What were you, what kind of clown were you? Exactly. I was a put it together last minute kind of clown. Cause the costumes and clothes didn't fit quite right. Okay. Amy, you were a perfect clown. It was so obvious you were a clown. What kind of clown would you say you were? You know, I don't even have a word for it. Yeah. That's original. I think you were a classic clown. Classic clown. Like you've seen a million times. I knew it was a clown. Okay. I'm going to give you this, um, compliment in public. I've been thinking about texting it to you or pulling you aside and saying this to your face, but now I'm going to say it in dead public. We have an expert that's going to come out soon. Anna Lemke, who we already love. She's a psychiatrist and a professor at Stanford. She wrote dopamine nation. I love her. She has a new book about the power of prayer, uh, in life. For the secular person. And it was one of the most compelling interviews we've done in a long time. It's a very compelling book. And the whole time I was reading it and the whole time I was talking to her, I was thinking, I think Amy's the wisest person I really know on planet earth. And I'm so sincere about that. And I just think you're so fucking special and so wise. And I think you've known so many things intuitively that I'm growing towards. So I'm going to cry standing here. That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said. I thought it a million times. I can't wait for you to read the book. And, um, and I, I hope you've, I don't know, take on. That was a really crazy thing you did. You know, you're not a clown. And Oh, actually you're the best person I've ever met. It's like, like we're doing. I think the through line's truth. I'm telling her the truth from how I see it. I agree. I also think you're the best person on earth. Yeah. Monica agrees. But I just think you're really, really wise. You have a very wise, intuitive spirit that I admire. Well, I do have to give honor to God because that's where I feel like I learned most of my wisdom. So it's working. It's working. I love you to death. Okay. Bye sweetie. I love you guys. Love you money. Bye. Oh, I love her. Okay. She wasn't a clown, but I love her to death. She was. Oh my God. This is feeling a little bit homesy. And crazy. Okay. Yeah. You're Elizabeth Holmes. You're like, look, you're showing the picture of the, not a clown and going, it's a clown. I said they were clowns. Your big eye, like how big your eyes are just like Elizabeth Holmes. Cause I'm disassociating. Cause you're making me feel like a crazy person. They went as clowns and that was just confirmed. Okay. You going to number two again? I might. I just might. Anyway, that's funny. You brought up that book because I'm sending you a book. I'm sending it to someone who is dabbling in religion as an adult. Uh-huh. At first I was like, yeah, it's a little scary at first. What's that going to be about? You know, they become orthodox of something. Or just like, I think I was like, why? But the more this person talked about it, I was like, okay, I, I understand the, the draw and maybe the need. Yeah. Um, anyway, so I'm going to send this book over. I think in some. In some way, I mean, I'm only going to be able to go so far with it. Right. But I'll say I've had this weird child experience, which is a big leap of faith. Yeah. And it's one of those things where then once you've experienced it, you're kind of frustrated. You can't articulate what it means to other people and you can see them on their face. They're getting glazed over as if I'm talking about religion, you know? Right. So it's like, I have had this one weird transcendent experience that is annoying as it sounds. You can't know until you feel it. And so I'm old. Open to the notion that like that person might find some incredible comfort and transcendence in exploring religion. I think if what it does is remind you that the universe doesn't revolve around you and that you have really very little control and that you, you're small, like in a good way. It's a humility dose. Yeah. If that's what it does for you, that's great. Yeah. I think, I do believe you can get that other way. There are ways, but if you can't, like if you haven't been able to access it and that's the route. Yeah. I think great. Yeah. I mean, I can imagine, although I don't feel it, I can imagine a state of feeling deeply loved without any qualifications and really feeling that and how liberating that would be when we all think we have to be so many things to be loved because I could see where that would be insanely healing. and nurturing definitely it's really hard for me to break away the institution of it all it's like my whole opinion of it is so murky with exploiting people fucking pulling back science you know all the yes molesting kids all men in charge yeah women have no role you know like all this stuff that grew out of this other concept a lot of people killing each other it's almost like the opposite of a cult whereas as we discussed most cults have something great at the beginning who said it was it adam grant someone said it's actually a lie wrapped in a truth so it's like you come into est or nexium or scientology yeah and the initial stuff is sound yeah and then the deeper you go it gets crazier and more corrupt right right right and then the human uh self-serving human side of it is exposed whereas this weirdly might be the opposite that's so true yeah it's so wrapped in so much fucking yeah corruption yes i agree yeah but the core of it i don't think i could ever say i'm religious but i do feel spiritual and i think that the core is that is is just believing there's more yeah the lead i haven't made is that there's there's like a being i know but i don't think like i think that holds a lot of people up yeah and i i don't think there's necessarily a being but i just don't that's okay to me i don't need to figure it out i just like i'm comfortable that yeah i have felt better just from walking halfway there i guess you know yeah but i guess to get the thing i'm kind of fantasizing about where i felt like a paternal nurturing you know unconditional loving yeah i don't think there's necessarily a being but i just don't that's okay to me i don't need to be a being cares about me yeah i don't know how i get to that without making it a being you know yeah and Perhaps I don't need to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But Amy is specific because I know a lot of religious people. Hers is different. Yeah. Yeah. She seems from another planet. Yeah. Like she is in touch. The purity of her intentions is so wild. Exactly. And her understanding of human fragility and mistakes and her forgiveness. Yeah, she's not judgmental at all. She's zero judgment. Yeah. Very forgiving. All the things you're really supposed to be that you so rarely see someone walk that walk. There's one other person in my life that is kind of on par with her, also religious or grew up religious. So it is interesting. Yeah. That's Allison. Shout out, Allison. Good job, Allison. Oh, back to Halloween. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You were a clown. The Hansons were not clowns. The Hansons were clowns. Okay. You ended up being a train conductor. I did. I did. I was a train conductor. Yep. No one complimented my outfit. Nor should they have. I did. I said, you look cute. Oh, thank you. Yeah. You just didn't hear me. See, you don't hear compliments from me anymore. Maybe. It rained. Yeah. It rained. We didn't let it stop us. No. Didn't let us stop us. No. Your hayride commenced. It commenced. You did ride it or didn't ride it. I didn't want to talk about this. None of my friends rode it. Eric didn't ride it. I wanted to ride it, but every time I looked, it was full. It was fucking packed. Yeah. Yeah. I looked at the clock right before we started and when we ended, it went for a good two hours and 15 minutes. Yeah. It was really cool. And you really did it up. Every year, you make it more special. You advance. The tech. Yeah. I had five different disco lights that were going now on a canopy above it so it could broadcast on there, which was, people thought I was so smart because of the rain. Yeah, that's what I thought. I was getting lots of compliments that I had built this shelter for the rain. Yeah. But that's not why I did it. I had done it just so that the lights would bounce off of something, but then that turned out to look like I had, I was so well prepared. Yeah. Yeah. But I mounted the speakers differently. I had four disco lights pointed at the thing, one in back that was rocking anyone we drove by. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to give you a compliment. I knew, I think the day before, we did at the Hanson's, a Halloween carving. Yeah. It's annual tradition. You did not, you were not there. No. But Kristen was there and she was saying that you were putting a tarp on or something like you, you were putting a top. Yeah. And, you know, and then I had an idea of what that would look like and stuff. And so, but then the day of Halloween, I was moving my car and I saw, and you were adjusting. Staged. Yeah. Yeah. You were staging your hayride and like, I came over and I looked at it and I, I was, I was so impressed. Like it wasn't like, if I had to put a tarp on, I would just be like draping it and like stapling it or something. I don't know. I just, it looks so professional. Oh, thank you. Yeah. I built a whole wood structure around the trailer. So it had a roof and everything. Yeah. And it was like taut. You know, it was cute as I was day of. Saturday we had also, it should be said, Kristen's going equally and or harder on the entire property. Yes. There's skeletons hanging off balconies. They're playing games in the yard. They're having a fucking dinner party at a table. Yeah. There's a big trash can where a skeleton's throwing up fluorescent vomit with a pump running and all, you know, so she has done so much stuff. And then I was quite busy on the thing. Yeah. Well, day of, I'm like, oh shit. We didn't get any candy to hand out. Oh, right. Yeah. Oversight, the most important part of the holiday and we forgot. So then I ran up to Target and I was just loading up a cart with every kind of candy bar. And then a sweet woman said, um, I think she just said happy Halloween to me. And I said, yeah, happy Halloween, uh, just in time or something. So we're both buying candy. Yeah. And then she goes, have fun on your hayride. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. She knows I'm about to have my hayride. That's so sweet. That's so nice. So you didn't go on the hayride. I didn't want to tell you. That's okay. Eric didn't either. And he didn't want to tell me. And it makes me think everyone thinks it's so much pressure to ride the hayride. No, that's not why. We have 40 people at the house. So the first batch that went up the hill were all the kids basically. They got to go. Yeah. And then every time I looked, it's just like, oh, it's crowded. Too much business. And I can't get on. And, um. Strangers. I had a really tall hat on for my clown. Yeah. You did. So I don't even know if I would have fit on the hayride. Yeah. You know? It's all people problems. But what was really cool about the hat, because you know I hate rain. Mm-hmm. So much. And I hate feeling wet in clothes. Yeah. I, for some reason, I think that hat protected me. I think it like acted as some sort of umbrella or something. Oh, wow. Even though it was pointy at the top. Maybe it was, you know, I don't know. I don't know. It was like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. dissipate yeah yeah because i mean my hat was really wet but i didn't feel very wet that's great congratulations thank you yeah thank you so i didn't get wet i was in the car yeah you were in the car um you were feeling a little down and so i just i just wanted to know if the hayride helped lift your spirit yeah well i had um my mom was in town so my mom rode i think three or four laps it was a long time yeah and then she rode shotgun good and in total mom fashion right she gets in and yeah i don't want to pat myself on the back too much but i got a lot going i got the music going again the route is crazy now it's raining yeah there's tons of people everywhere getting in the alley i got the windows down so i can see out the rear view mirror as good as i can to see what's happening i don't want him falling off you know all that shit also passing all the people like kids are getting they part but then they forget that a trailer's coming through so it's like i'm watching for feet whatever so my mom hops in and she's immediately starts going in this dash of um molly's car the tesla hitting buttons and try to get her seat heater on she's rolling the window uh she's like sorry to do all this business i'm like mom mom mom yeah i know mom i know moms get busy man moms cannot just sit sit down and join the the party shit yeah but we got through that that was hilarious and very it was it nice you guys chatted yeah good yeah i mean i just talked about my mom and dad so you know yeah moms they have a tough job mom they do they have a thankless tough job they do i they do so yeah i was down uh-huh and And then so, of course, if I'm down, then my mom's worried about me. Yeah, we were all worried. We were all. That's why we were like, don't tell him we didn't. No, no, no. We're of course, we're worried about our friend who's feeling down. Yeah. And then when your parents are worried, then you have to regulate them. I know. So then you're down. Yep. And now you also have to, like, I guess, fake it to regulate them. I know. So it's just a lot of regulation that I think I had on your plate, on my plate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, another round of me being a terrible person was in the media and like I avoided that. But then it hit Kristen's doorstep really hard. And then I got to find out everything that people are saying about me. And I think I was just at that moment where I was like, I, the level of unjustness, it feels to me, my behavior versus this weird narrative that is surrounding me as like in a controlling, abusive, now flirting with people in public, which I don't do. I mean, but even if, but it's not, it's so frustrating. It's like the internet wants a narrative. They're going to find it wherever. Pretty big normal publications, too, running this. But there's still the internet. I mean, that's like at this point, everything is for clicks. And so anything that they can do to have a headline, I mean, they'll do. I just think when you grew up, for me, growing up around certain men who behaved a certain way. Yeah. And then literally dedicating my whole life to being the opposite of all that. I don't ever yell at my children. I don't swear at them. I don't yell at my wife. You know, like to have given it my all to be the opposite of what now some group of people is saying I am is it's hard. Of course. Yeah. I don't I don't love it. I know. And I find it deeply insulting to my wife. Additionally, you know, of course, it's like she can't make up any decisions. She's what she's sitting in a house with her two daughters and modeling some abusive relationship is very offensive to her. I agree. And, you know, you you told us that you guys were in a thing and I was like, oh, what was it? And then you said from here an episode or the compliments, which I was with Kristen yesterday, the girls and we were talking about this. And I was like, but that's your truth. If you think, I'm complimenting like hot young waitresses. Yeah, you got a problem. Right. I'm finding the dude that I don't think's had a compliment in a while and tell him I love his shoes. You know, it's always somebody that I want to make their day. Yeah. And so those compliments is flirting with Kristen. But it got to be when I went through the grinder that I flirt with people in front of Kristen. Yeah. Also, if you listen to the show, I compliment people nonstop. It's kind of my thing. Well, that's the thing. I'm like, I mean, not to. So what? So what if you're flirting is fine? I mean, I depending like flirting is not fine. If you are in a relationship, that's that's when I'm feeling really defensive. And like, of course, when I'm in these zones, I'm like, I'm in interviews in my head. It's just like, OK, well, next time I do an interview, someone's going to ask me about this thing. And then. And. And I'm defensive. And I'm like, I will offer publicly ten million dollars to any server you can find that I have given my number to or hit on. Oh, God, no. Like, go find this person you think I'm doing this to. Well, that's the difference, right? Like, I think some people hear flirting and they think hit on. That's not my definition. I don't think that's yours or hers or a lot of people's. But also, I'm flirting with Kristen. Exactly what she. Yeah. What she is saying is she likes that. She likes having a partner who's kind and gives compliments to other people and isn't like withholding of that. Yeah. And I do think that was clear. That was clear. But if they can twist it. Yeah, they will. Yeah. So that's very aggravating and annoying. And I'm sorry that you guys. And they're they're generally I. I can brush them off. But when we're now on year two of now, there's a new then it just starts making me think like, oh, is this now my fucking role? I know. Going forward, it just be like every four months. There's another thing about me being a terrible man. I know. And that seems that makes me want to go away. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. But remember, like, we'll have people on and they'll be depressed about something going on. And we are like, we never. Heard it. Oh, for sure. Like, there are real silos. So that thing, the one from here, I didn't see that never came across my algorithm ever. Yeah. And then there's something else. And then on this person, it's like this is all we're all living in such different realities based on these algorithms. And it's like so toxic. I mean, it's so bad out there. And I understand that there's no way to just say, oh, it's fine because it sucks. Yeah. It sucks if people are saying wrong things about you. And then it even like it fucks with me on all these levels. It's like, oh, I'm about to be on Bad Monkey being an asshole. Which is. And I'm like, oh, God. I just gave them like more fodder, you know, because people can't distinguish between. You just can't look at it. Yeah. Like you really can't. I saw on my on my algorithm, I did get served a little clip of you on Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson's show. Oh, really? And it was so funny. Was it? Are you being honest? I am. I promise. I liked it. I haven't seen it. You hearted it? OK. I was going to send it to you and say you should repost this, but I knew you were down. You knew I was in a reposting mood. Yeah. Anyway, so I'm sorry that's happening. But all the people listening here know that I'm not a controlling. Yeah, exactly. And it's. Yeah. Stuff out there. OK, so I had to poop. Covered that. I don't sweat on my lips. Covered that. Does it just say poop? Said I had to poop at some point during this. Oh, OK. Not just poop. That could lead to some. I would never know. You wouldn't know. Yeah. OK. Oh, OK. Needlepoint versus embroidering. I had Laura send a voice memo. She's an expert of needlepoint and. Of the difference. OK, we're ready. Hi. OK, so embroidery is basically the umbrella term and needlepoint is a branch of embroidery. The main differences are about like what kind of material you're stitched on, the style of stitches and the kind of thread used. So embroidery is like decorative stitching on fabric, right? And these stitches like French knots, satin stitch, chain stitch and whatever fabric you're embroidering those stitches on is exposed as part of the finished design. Now, needlepoint uses one kind of stitch and it's called a tent stitch, little diagonal lines and the entire surface. So the fabric is covered. So needlepoint things generally end up being like pillows or belts or something like that. And then, oh, yeah, embroidery is done with embroidery floss. And then needlepoint is done with like, can we do it with silk? Can we do it with wool? So those are the main differences. That was a very thorough and great definition. It was. I'm in deep gratitude. I still don't really know, but. Right. Yeah. But we know now. But we do know. I thought this was crazy because when we had Ray Madoff on. We talked about the name Ray and how uncommon it is. And especially for her, because hers is spelled R-A-Y. Uh-huh. And here's another Ray. R-H-E-A. Yes. This one gives me a lot of anxiety, the spelling. I understand. Yeah. I think it gives a lot of people anxiety. I think a lot of people say Raya. I think if you swap the E and the A, I'd be great. Because then I'd be, oh, it's making that A long. Right. Yeah. But the H adds like. Hey, guys. Yeah. Yeah. That's that. Okay. So she mentioned TJ Maxx, and you said more Maxx for the minimum. And then I wanted to look at some other really popular. Slogans. Famous brand slogans and taglines. Number one. What do you think? Just do it. Actually, no. Can we trust a list where just do it isn't number one? Well, number one is Disneyland, the happiest place on Earth. That's solid. That's really, really good. Oh, number two, Nike, just do it. Okay. I can accept that. And what do you think three is? I'm loving it. No, but that's a really good one. Really good. No, Old Spice, the original. If your grandfather hadn't worn it, you wouldn't exist. Oh, wow. That's great. De Beers, a diamond is forever. Yes. Yeah. MasterCard. Ding, ding, ding. Which is, what's the same? There's some things money can't buy for everything else. There's MasterCard. Okay. Yeah. Billy. Billy Cruda. Remember? Remember when he came on? Yes, we did a fake one. We did a fake one. You had it arranged. Yes. It was very funny. Samsung, do what you can't. No. Hmm. I think they paid to have that one on there. Dollar Shave Club, our blades are fucking great. Whoa. I know. And then Shave Time, Shave Money. I like that. Yeah, Shave Time, Shave Money. Oh, this is BMW, the ultimate driving machine. Classic. Very good. I put that above many of the others. Oh, ding, ding, ding. Allstate, you're in good hands. We know this one. Inside now. I love it. Truer words are not spoken. Uber, move the way you want. I didn't know that. No, that's not. No one knows that. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Yes. No one knows that. No one knows that so well. Oh, Rothy's, reduce your carbon footprint and style. Staples, that was easy. Huh. Marriott Bonvoy, rewards reimagined. I, I, I've heard. You're getting a little. Kellogg's Rice Krispies, snap, crackle, pop. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. I guess I wouldn't have thought of that as a. As a slogan? Yeah, but. That's classic. Gatorade. Is it in you? Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Kentucky Fried Chicken, finger licking good. Yeah, prime. Compass, let us guide you home. No. Airbnb, belong anywhere. Verizon, can you hear me now? Good. Yes. Oh, why isn't this, this should be number three or four. Dunkin' Donuts, America runs on Dunkin'. Maybe just because it's newer. That is a good one. I know it inside and out, but it is a newer campaign, I think. Oh, Wheaties Breakfast of Champagne. Yeah, I think it's a good one. eat just one pretty good oh taco bell think outside the bun that should be higher yeah okay I'm skipping some. Toyota, let's go places. Yes. Let's do that. Walmart, save money, live better. And I haven't really heard that. Oh, Wrigley's, double your pleasure, double your fun. Yeah. Burger King, have it your way. Top of the list. That's really top. Your way, right away. Oh, that doesn't have McDonald's. Maybe McDonald's had a beef. They didn't pay to be that. Where's the beef? Wendy's. Nice. Most people don't know that. Really good. I had a marketing class in high school. where he said like he gave us examples of good and bad advertising and so he first quizzed everyone if they knew where's the beef uh-huh every 100 of the people in the class knew that campaign and then they asked he asked everyone to write down what restaurant it was from and there's zero consensus people didn't remember that it was wendy's they remembered the commercial but they didn't remember what it was for yeah so that was given as an example of an effective campaign. Bad. I would have said Arby's. You would have said Arby's? Yeah. Sure. It does seem like it would have been good for Arby's. Yeah, they should wish they had We've Got the Beef. That's theirs? Yeah, I think that's theirs now. Yeah, We've Got the Beef. I do feel bad that McDonald's, I'm loving it, wasn't on there. That's crazy. Yeah, I think there's some skullduggery going on. Yeah. Oh, the Walker Spy Family Case. John Anthony Walker John Anthony Walker, a U.S. Navy chief warrant officer and communications specialist, a family-run Soviet espionage network led by John Anthony Walker. John Walker and his associates sold classified U.S. military secrets to the Soviet Union, resulting in one of the most damaging security breaches in American naval history. I wonder how much he made in the full length of doing that. Walker began spying for the Soviets in late 1967. When distraught over his financial difficulties, he walked into the old Soviet embassy in Washington, D.C., sold a top-secret document, a radio cipher card, for several thousand dollars, and negotiated an ongoing salary of $500 to $1,000, equivalent of $4,800 to $9,700 in 2025, a week. It's not that much. $10,000 a week? $520,000 a year to endanger the lives of mere countrymen? Weird. Weird. But maybe it was desperate. Yeah. You know? I don't know. People make bad decisions. Oh, was 45 Seconds on Broadway Neil Simon's last play that he wrote? Rose's Dilemma was the last play. But 45 Seconds on Broadway, from Broadway. Oops. She infected you. Yeah. Was his final play to grace a Broadway stage. Okay. Okay, then I looked up, this is fun. This is a fun one. Metro areas with the most top-ranked high schools, like publics, because she said she came from a really good public school system. Yeah, in Virginia. This is, for some reason, started, but this is usnews.com. Okay. Really good. 28, I don't know why it's starting there, but Atlanta, Sandy Springs, Roswell, Georgia. Wow. Good job, Georgia. Highest-ranked schools nationally. Oh, my God. Gwinnett School of Mathematics, Science, and Technology. I'm from Gwinnett County. Wowzers. So, that's why I'm really smart. 27, Dallas-Fort Worth, Arlington, Texas. Okay. 26, Worcester, Massachusetts. 25, San Diego. Oh, my God. What's happening? Can't read anymore. San Diego, Chula Vista, Carlsbad, California. That's. These names are tough. There's a pattern emerging. The trickier the name of the place, the better the schools are. Seattle, Tacoma, Bellevue, Washington. Yeah. Bellevue. Makes sense. Chicago. Oh, Rob. Chicago, Naperville. Yep. Elgin. Yep. Sure. Illinois, Indiana. Great schools. Houston, Pasadena, the Woodlands, Texas. I don't believe any of these. Okay. Mine was too low. Baltimore, Columbia, Towson, Maryland. Jacksonville, Florida. Yeah, right. Austin, Round Rock, Georgetown, Texas. Bridgeport, Stanford, Danbury, Connecticut. Grand Rapids, Wyoming, Kentwood, Michigan. Are you in there? Oh, God, no. Oh, Tampa, St. Petersburg, Clearwater, Florida. Yeah, right. That's all Scientology headquarters. Ew, really? Clearwater? Uh-huh. So maybe they've got like that learning tech is really working. I went to Clearwater Beach once. That's where you got your advice, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. You could play black. El Paso. You didn't take it. No, that was Ocala. Oh, that was Ocala. Sorry. El Paso, Texas. Orlando, Kiss Me. Samford, Florida. Florida. Greenville, Anderson, Greer, South Carolina. Mostly the South, all these. Washington, D.C., Arlington, Alexandria, D.C., Virginia, Maryland. What? San Francisco. Now we're just saying every single. I'm mad. Okay. This wasn't as fun as anticipated. I thought it was going to be really fun. But. This says number six, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Anaheim, California. Oh, okay. Number what? Six. Oh, you're reading up? Yeah. Oh, I thought you started with yours as number one. I wanted to. Oh. It wasn't number one. Oh, okay. That's why I don't believe it. Okay. This has number one as San Jose, Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, California. This, don't listen to this list. Okay. It was not a factual list. Okay. Oh, the Euler's Circuit. That was fun when she talked about that. Yeah. The most efficient way to move something. Yeah. A Euler's Circuit is a closed walk in a graph that visits every edge exactly once and starts and ends at the same vertex. Vertex. Yeah. I don't know that word. Vertex. Isn't that where things cross? I don't remember anything from school. I don't think I ever learned vertex. Well, I did take stat. Did you take stat? Yes. In college, I thought it was going to be the easy math and it wasn't. Yeah, I know. I took it in high school AP stat. Yeah. It's hard. It was hard. Let's look at vertex meaning. A point where two or more lines, lines, segments, razor curves meet. Oh. I do know some stuff. Oh, wow. That's because of my education. You know, it was number one. That's it. That's everything for Ray Seahorn? Yeah. Okay. What an interesting story Ray had. I know. She was riddled with anxiety. Yeah. But she persevered. She persevered. I think she said she still struggles sometimes. Yeah. But we all do. Yeah, we do. All right. Love you. Love you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.