Rewriting the Menopause Conversation with Dr. Jordan Emont

(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Well Kept podcast, where we blend the science of wellness, culture, and straight talk to upgrade your life. I'm Jackie Gianelli. - And I'm Carmen Stansbury. - We're both board certified nurse practitioners and leading voices in women's health and longevity. - In a world where women's wellness is still wrapped in outdated advice and one size fits all solutions, we're here to change the conversation. - This isn't wellness watered down. We're cutting through the noise and giving you the insiders edit on hormones, aesthetics, longevity, and the science of looking and feeling your best. - If you're ready to ditch outdated narratives, invest wisely in your well-being and take control of how you age, you're in the right place. - This is Well Kept. Let's get into it. (upbeat music) - Hi everyone, welcome back to the Well Kept podcast. I'm back here with my well-kept co-host, Carmen Stansbury. And we have a really special guest on with us today that I'm excited to talk to. His name is Dr. Jordan Emont. And we'll get into his last name in a little bit later 'cause I asked how he pronounces it 'cause I'm a big stickler for names. Actually, I hate when people mispronounce my name. - Or misspell. - Or misspell. And so yes, that's like a, I don't have a lot of rules, but that's one. And we're gonna talk, he's a man in the menopause space. And so we have naturally had to have this conversation and get up close and personal about who he is, what is he doing here, what does he know, and how can we be better friends? Because he just captivated a lot of the internet lately. So Jordan Emont, I'll give you the formal bio and then pass the mic to Dr. Emont to give you more background on his specialization, but he is an OBGYN specializing in women's longevity, hormone management, and sexual dysfunction, something I am passionate about as well. He has completed extensive high level training in his field at some of the world's best institutions. You guys probably have heard of Yale and Brown and Columbia. And he is now out on the West Coast, serving patients in the East or in the, in the Northern California area. And so I will let Dr. Emont tell you more about himself. Welcome. - Well, thank you both so much for inviting me on the show. I admire both of you so much and just love the content that you put out and what you've been doing for this field for a while now. And so I thank you for that introduction as well. I am relatively new to this field, honestly. And I think that the sudden rise in my Instagram popularity has taken me a little bit by surprise, just as as much as I think it has for other people, but it's honestly been a wonderful surprise. But I, like you said, I trained at Columbia and I got wonderful training there. I feel really grateful to have trained at such a great institution and feel really well prepared to be an OBGYN. But I think like a lot of OBGYNs, there was really very little formal training in menopause care. And probably both of you can appreciate this. You know, once you really start taking care of women, you start to realize that the vast majority of patients have some concern related to perimenopause, menopause, or sexual dysfunction. And it was so incredibly frustrating to me that I felt like I didn't have that knowledge. And so once I just started practicing, I just invested wholeheartedly into learning about that. And I feel like the more and more that I've learned and I continue to learn, the more and more that it just blows my mind that not everybody cares about this all the time because it seems like the single most important thing that happens to the world every single day. And so that's really what motivates me. I think that my calling towards being in women's health in general was very similar, that I just felt so frustrated that people didn't care about this. And this just feels like the kind of extra level of that passion. So I'm just so excited to be taking care of women in menopause and perimenopause and dealing with conversations that should be happening all the time, but aren't. - I think the one thing we all know is if you are a man, you have a woman that you're close to in your life. And I think maybe it was you that said that, but I heard it and I'm like, it's so true. Every man should care about menopause, whether it's your mother, your wife, your girlfriend, your sister, your daughter. This is important to all women and really at all stages of life, right? Hormone care just in general. And I think what a lot of us in this space know and have realized even more is that there really is no hard stop as to when this becomes important, right? It's important from the time we start to become women and all the way through to post menopause that hormone care really matters. And having a fluent clinician in this space is so, so important. But all that said, your intro was wonderful. We love following you and seeing all of your content. But we, Jackie and I were like, this actually needs to be studied. How fast you grew in the space? Like we need to know. But most importantly, I think it is, a man talking about menopause is just endearing. And your empathy comes through in every post that you make. But I think what we would love to know is when you realize maybe the first video that you had went viral, what did that actually feel like for you? And I wanna know like, yeah, what were you doing? When was the moment? And then, yeah, what was your wife thinking about this? - I know, it was a little crazy. It was really the video that it was kind of my rant about my patient who had very misleading information told them by a pharmacist. And Dr. Mary Claire Haver and Dr. Nussin both reposted it. And it just kind of exploded from there. And I feel like, you know, I had probably had about 50 posts at that point or maybe a little bit fewer than that. And, you know, every now and then I would have one that would take off a little bit. But for some reason, this one just really struck a chord. I didn't even think that it was gonna be such a popular video because it seemed so basic to me. But yeah, I woke up in the morning and I had 10,000 new followers. And it was just wild. I wish I had a more profound reason to explain to you of why this happened. I do think that you are right. I think that being a man in this field, there is something a little bit unique about just, you know, having somebody talk about that. And, you know, maybe that's a little bit of a part of it. I don't really consider myself to be, you know, the manliest man. And I've always been friends with women and kind of always consider myself one of the girls. But so, you know, it's funny to me, I think to even like put that as part of my identity for my social media presence. But yeah, it was crazy. And I feel like even to this day, I still, you know, I'm texting my wife and my mother-in-law, you know, who also lives here. And, you know, I'm like, it's 70,000 now. You know, oh, this person just followed me. And so I just feel very grateful for that. I recently posted, I think it was when I crossed 80,000, I recently posted just a little post with a question saying, genuinely curious, like why are people following me? Because I, you know, I really just wanted to gain a better idea. And I thought that a lot more people were gonna say, you know, oh, it's nice to see a man in this field. It's nice to see, you know, somebody talking about this. But actually most people really just said, you seem like a nice person. You seem like you, you know, really care about this. And you seem very genuine. And to me, I mean, I was very happy because that's something that I consider about my identity to be true. But I also was very sad about that because I just feel like that should be the baseline for all medical practitioners that everyone should have a medical practitioner that they feel like cares and is empathetic and is able to explain things in a clear way. So I'm happy that I'm able to be that person, but I also almost see it as a call to action to maybe the providers who are listening that, you know, you really should also be trying to aim for that same level of care and care provision for your patients. You know, everyone, particularly women and menopause who are getting so much information deserve that. And, you know, my social media I think is one version of that, but everyone should be doing that. - Well, I have to say something, which I think is kind of funny, but the real that went viral about your, what was it, the pharmacist, right? - Yeah. - I had just come upon your social media because I had been chatting with a common friend of ours and she was like, no, you've got to check out Jordan. He's such a sweet guy or whatever. So I had that like that morning, I went to your Instagram. I think you had like, I don't know, 300 followers or something like that. And I was like, and you were just posted this meal and I thought exactly that I'm like, wow, what an empathetic like new voice in the space. And so I shared it and I am going to take a little credit for your viral. - I believe that, I believe that, thank you. - But no, it was truly, I shared it because it was just, it stopped me, because you, I don't know, exude authenticity. And I do think that there's something, we see a lot of, Carmen and I do at least, a lot of menopause content, deep in the algorithm. And a lot of it looks and feels the same. So perhaps it was your empathy, perhaps it was that you are a guy who was not only just, it didn't feel like marketing. It just, it felt like pure education and it's like most original form. And we don't see that as much this far into sort of the menopause space. Like a lot of people are very wary of a lot of this stuff, truly just being marketing master's education and yours never feels that way. - Thank you, I appreciate that. And I do think that there is so much misinformation in this field because of that. Unfortunately, I feel like in the gap that existed with at the post-WHI era, we've had some not so great people come into the field. And I think most people who get into medical care are trying to do right by patients. But also I feel like there's a lot of people that are trying to monetize that confusion. So I agree, I think that actually all three of us really bring that to our content is, how do we get correct information to women so they can make great decisions for themselves? And I try to bring that to my practice as well. I think I have a very casual approach with patient conversations and really just try to empower their own life and their own decision as the center of what we're really talking about. And so good information is the foundation of that. Nobody can make a good decision without that. I actually have a little bit of an unrelated example, but I had a friend who she had a C-section and a couple of weeks afterwards she was having pain at her incision site. And so I happened to be seeing her and I thought that maybe on exam there was a hernia and she went to her provider and her provider basically said to her, okay, well, we can get a CT scan, but do you want it with contrast or without contrast? And I was just thinking like, how is my friend supposed to make that decision for herself? So I feel like that's kind of like the worst version of that is, yes, like we should be centering patients, but it has to start with good information. Like she has no idea if a CT scan should be with or without contrast to evaluate for a hernia. And so I think that the same thing applies to menopause care as well, that we really need to be providing good information in a clear way so that way people can make decisions for what makes sense in their own life. - I do want to add that is a really good story. And I think that people, they don't just want education, they want to feel empowered. Like here are the choices you have, but it's not you tell me what you want. It's here are the choices you make the decision. You know, giving that sovereignty back to them. I do want to rewind just for a second and talk about Jackie, you hit the nail on the head with authenticity. That's what we're missing a lot in social media. It's not just the education. It's not just the information. It's people are looking for connection and authenticity. And if anyone's listening and they're trying to build a personal brand that's really what it's about, people feel like you came there, you didn't have something to sell. And you also weren't being inflammatory. You were telling a story about a situation. And I think what we're running into is so many people are worried about building their brand and by proving other people wrong. Look at me, I'm the expert, I know everything. And instead you were connecting with the listener, the people that are watching you. And I think that we are so inundated with messaging and marketing as Jackie was saying that we are just craving connection and authenticity. And especially around the things that matter to us. You know, when you're talking about something that matters to half the population and hopefully even more than that, you know, I think that's part of the rise of this. And anyone trying, like I said, to build a brand should take this signal as real. - Yeah, I completely agree. And I would say, especially I think as a man in this field, you know, I've spent my whole career surrounded by just some of the most intelligent capable women that I've ever met. My residency class alone, I always said I was the dumbest person in my residency class, like the other women in my class are just the most impressive people. And I try to really bring that as well to my content 'cause I think that there's a really easy possibility of accidentally moving into mansplaining. And, you know, I really try to avoid that in general. And I think that that's kind of like the worst version of authenticity for a man. - Yeah, and so, you know, for me, I think that I really try to make sure that I'm just providing the information, but not in a way that is going to step on the amazing content and leadership that so many women have brought to this field and have really, in many ways, created the awareness in the first place. You know, I see myself as just furthering that mission, but not trying to lead it. Because I think that this really should be something that, you know, women are bringing to the table, women are leading with. And I hope I'm bringing good information, but not trying to pretend that I know better than that. - But you have this high level of self-awareness in order to be able to do that. And I think in general, that is what mansplaining is. So bothers people about mansplaining, right? Is that, like, it's being squashing this. You're coming to this conversation, like, leading with, like, curiosity, rather than with, like, your knowledge first. And I think that that shows for sure. And I think women really, like, are looking for men to come to the table here. And I think there's, there's not been, I haven't seen anyone do it well, right? To bring a man into, who wasn't already sort of in the longevity field to start and sort of like, women's health has always kind of been an add-on to men's health, you know? Like, you could look at hims and hers that way, right? They started as a men's health company, and then they slapped on menopause. And they kind of became hot, right? And so we see them across the board. And that, that doesn't feel as authentic. And so, I don't know, I would ask you, like, how, like, what, I don't know, what does allyship look like for a male physician who was already doing this anyway? You know, you've been doing this for decades. You didn't just show up to menopause 'cause it was hot and, hot and monetizable, right? Like, so, so how do you talk to other men in your life about this? Like, give us some tips about how we can, as women or, you know, just as clinicians, bring men into the fold here, 'cause we need it. - Yeah, I 100% agree. And what I always say to my patients and colleagues is that the physical body experience of menopause affects women's bodies, but the life experience of menopause affects everyone, and that includes men. And we see this manifest in so many different ways. You know, we know that divorce rates are so high around the time that women go through menopause. We know that there's a lot of sexual dysfunction, and that can then affect relationships. And I think that, you know, I mean, all three of us have, I'm sure, been through the experience of having a woman in front of us in our practice, and just saying, "Oh, my husband doesn't get it," or, "Oh, that guy, you know, I'm seeing," like, he just won't understand. And it just always breaks my heart. And, you know, I think that men should be part of that conversation. But I think that the tip that I have is basically what you said is lead with curiosity. You know, I think that there's a lot of men who, you know, who really care about the women in their life, and they really are gonna invest in it. But then that might then turn into, oh, well, did you know this about menopause? And did you know this? And all of a sudden, they're trying to explain, you know, to their partner, their, what their partner is experiencing without actually listening to, you know, what that experience has been like. And so I think it creates another burden in a lot of ways. But I think the other tip also is that men just need to take the priority for themselves to learn about this. You know, when you're a doctor working with residents or medical students, there's always the medical student who is just so well-meaning, you know, but they just can't figure out how to be helpful. And when you're like a busy person, you know, you don't have time to say like, "Okay, I need you to do this. "Okay, can you go do this?" Ultimately, it ends up being more work for you to have, you know, that responsibility to now assign tasks to another person. You know, the really amazing med students are the ones that just kind of figure out what's needed and then do it. And I think that this is sort of the same thing for how men can play a role in being a part of the menopause conversation is learn for yourself, read some books, you know, follow all of these wonderful people on Instagram. And that way you can participate in the conversations, but you don't have to be relying on your partner to tell you like, "Hey, I really can't, you know, "be doing this at this time "because I'm experiencing X symptom." Or, you know, "This isn't working for me. "And I need you to take that seriously." Like, it should really be the other way around. And I think that's my call out to the men who are listening or, you know, the men that are in the lives of listeners is really, you know, they should be taking the priority for themselves to learn about this. So that way they can come to that conversation with curiosity. - I mean, happy wife, happy life. Like, is that not like a plier? I mean, I don't know, I feel a good man. You gotta lead with the thing they want, you know? And then they get the thing that they need on the back end, right? Isn't that why we're compounding ED meds with statins now? Like, right? Because you have to give them what they want first. 'Cause men, I mean, a lot of men, I mean, we're just gonna gossip now. - Yeah, I think 100% sure. - Like that, you know? And their needs are simple. And so if it's a matter of like, hey, you know, if you invest in really great hormonal healthcare for your wife, like maybe you'd, you know, get more sex or get, I don't know, is it as simple as that? 'Cause I think we have a much different vantage point having been on the inside. Like, of course we want men to like want for their wives and they do and they're well-meaning, but sometimes you have to really get granular and be like, what is the value prop? - Yeah, no, I mean, I think you're absolutely right. And I think it kind of goes along with the fact that we have so many treatments for erectile dysfunction, but then nobody's treating the women who those penises are gonna be used on. And so you're absolutely right. Like, I almost feel like that should be a part of the conversation when a man goes to a urologist to deal with erectile dysfunction is, okay, before we are treating you with this or before we're putting in this implant, like has your wife seen somebody about her vaginal dryness and her libido issues? Because otherwise, you know, this is a useless conversation. - What's the business model there? - Yes, exactly. - What's the business model there that I'm sure we all can get on board with? - I agree with that. - But you're right. That's exactly what should be there. - Yeah, no, I mean, I agree. And I think that, you know, unfortunately, I think that there's a lot of different men in the world. And I think also historically, one of the greatest dangers to women has been men. And so, you know, we also need to remember that, that, you know, there's a lot of men that I think genuinely don't really care about this and they only are really caring about themselves and the women in their lives are purely just to satisfy, you know, their own needs and wishes. And, you know, that's gonna be a very different man to deal with and maybe that's where we need to be kind of, yeah, you know, giving the value proposition. But I do think that there's a lot of men that really do care about the women in their lives. And I think that those are the men that hopefully we can make some headway by just providing good education and really being able to support their participation in that conversation in an educated way. And, you know, and there are starting, I think, to be more and more men on Instagram who are doing that. So, it's headed in the right direction, but it's gonna take time. - Yeah, I think that you're uncovering a lot of different issues 'cause we started this topic and this conversation around kind of the perimenopause as a time where divorce is happening quite frequently as well. And I think that it surfaces this overall feeling of not being heard and then it coincides with kids getting older and women are like, "Actually, I don't need to put up with the shit anymore. "And if you don't care about my health, "like you haven't cared about my sleep and my work "and my schedule and all these tasks "that I do to keep this home running, "this is my, you know, final reason "that I'm not gonna listen to this either "if you're not gonna hear what I have to say." So. - Yeah, I'm curious. Like, do you think that that is coming from the women or do you think that it's the men who are getting frustrated in response to that? - No, I actually, I think it's the women. I think men will be more complacent than women and any of us, all three of us, I've spent 10 years in conventional OBGYN. We saw these same women or these same men and how they behaved during their wife or girlfriend's pregnancy. And then as a labor and delivery nurse, I saw it in the delivery room. You know, they're asleep, they're on their phone, they're, you know, sleeping through pushing, they leave the room. It's the same men then you turn around and, you know, you're in perimenopause and there are nowhere to be found. Or they become the enemy 'cause they just don't care enough to ask. And then, you know, without going too deep into it, it's all about them. You know, it's all about them and what they're not getting instead of what's actually changing. And I think that women, you know, to not totally unpack this, but we're in a situation now, a lot of women where we don't need to rely on men financially. - Yeah. - And so we just say, well, you know, if you don't wanna listen, you don't care enough about me to take this seriously, I don't need you anymore. - Yeah. Well, and I think that, you know, what you're bringing up is also just such, the importance of kind of completely shifting what we think of as the household. And, you know, I think that there's like broader political implications here that are happening in our society related to this, but you're exactly right, you know, I think it's the last stat that I saw in it is that almost 50% of households, the women is the breadwinner. And I think that if you expand that to kind of co-breadwinners, it's almost two thirds. And so we traditionally have this idea of the man as the center of the household or the leader of the household, but that in and of itself is problematic. And it really still centers the woman's role in the household as serving the man, but that's just not the case anymore. And I think that that's why, even that alone should be a reason that men should be caring about this, because if they wanna be relevant in the house anymore, then they need to be able to support their women through menopause. - So true, so true. I wanna shift the conversation a little bit into the clinical space, because I think it's important that we hear your point of view because you are focused on women's longevity and menopause. And that's essentially what it is. How do we extend our health span, not just our lifespan and live our entire life, you know, in a healthy way. So when it comes to hormone therapy, GLPs, different peptides and women's longevity, what is one belief you wish women would actually let go of? And maybe one truth you wish they would hold a little bit tighter. - That is a great question. I think, I mean, maybe this is a simple answer, but I think that from the perspective of hormone therapy, I wish that women would let go of the idea that this is purely for symptom relief. I think that that is just one of the most relevant parts of this whole conversation, especially related to women's longevity, that hormone therapy provides so much more than just getting rid of hot flashes, particularly when it started young. And I don't have to tell you or probably your listeners, all of the potential benefits that come from that. But I think it's just a very, it's a harmful belief, particularly for other medical providers, because I think that it creates this reality where hormone therapy is only something that women's health providers should be caring about, but really every single medical provider should know about the benefits that can be accrued from that. So I think that that is one thing that I wish that we would just collectively get rid of as a belief. And one thing that I wish women would hold on to more, that is a great question. - And don't feel pressured to answer it. Don't feel pressured to answer it. I will actually, while you think about it, just clear up on kind of what you said. The other belief that I think that women should let go of is that hormone therapy is the only thing that will fix the symptoms also. And how much our lifestyle and stress management and interaction with our immune system and all of the things that can cause negative symptoms at this point in our life. And so many women take hormone therapy, they go, they get the prescription, they think it's going to fix everything, and it just doesn't. - Well, I would add too to that, that I feel like because hormone therapy over the past, I don't know, five to seven to 10 years has been so hard to get, this has all become a game of like the pursuit of getting a prescription rather than, okay, like, and then what, you know? Like we forget that that is not the end game because we've made it just, we've raised so much collective awareness about the challenges of delivering hormonal healthcare in our current conventional healthcare system. But there's a lot that comes before the hormone prescription and there's a whole lot of stuff that comes after. So really zoom out a little bit. I think that that we're missing sometimes like the forest through the trees here a little bit. And I don't know if you agree with that? - No, I completely agree. And I think that, you know, my general approach to my practice is really just thinking about how do we thrive in menopause? And hormone therapy is just one tool for that. And everything that you mentioned, Carmen goes along with that, absolutely. And I think the other part, you know, that's important for that as well is that there's a lot of women who really can't take hormone therapy or may not want to. And, you know, what are the ways that we can be addressing symptoms, but also still addressing those longevity factors and that health span factors without using hormone therapy as a tool because we know we have so many potential ways to do that through lifestyle and other potential, you know, medications or interventions. - This is also why I think our entire healthcare model is shifting because we're realizing, you know, our OBGYN one appointment a year, maybe one appointment in between where we come in and we talk about some type of problem that we're having that this fits in more of a longitudinal care model. That if you are, you know, a woman, you're not in the healthcare space and you're going into your doctor and expecting your entire perimenopause to be managed and fixed in one appointment annually, it's not going to work. You know, without unpacking a whole nother thing about cash-based medicine, private practice, how we are in women's health kind of navigating away from that traditional model. - Yeah, and I think that, you know, unfortunately the healthcare system has been built up such that it doesn't really incentivize that preventative care anymore. And I don't really blame providers for this. I think that they're stuck in a system that, you know, is based on insurance reimbursement for that or healthcare organizations that have certain quotas for a number of patients that need to be seen and, you know, various metrics that need to be followed. But I think that more and more people are really trying to care about how do we prevent problems from happening. But that takes time. It takes oftentimes money. And I think that because of that it, in many cases, it ends up making it only accessible to people who have that time and money accessible to them. So I think that that is the other big issue for me in the longevity space is how do we expand this to be something that all people can take advantage of and can incorporate into their life. And we were talking before, you know, that, you know, part of my practice is my own menopausal longevity practice. But then I also spend a lot of my time working at a community health center, which is largely patients who have Medicaid for insurance or no insurance, many of whom are undocumented. And there's a huge language barrier. And so this, these conversations become so fundamental, but also so difficult. Because even something like saying to one of my patients, you know, walk for 10 minutes after you eat to decrease your blood sugar spike. Well, you know, there may not be time to do that. Or maybe it's not a safe geographic location to be able to go for a 10 minute walk. And so, you know, we're really, I think getting into a lot of the societal and socioeconomic factors that then influence longevity. But I think that one thing for me is then we add on the challenges of menopause and accessing hormone therapy to those systemic barriers. And I would say that in that population, it's even more important to be thinking about those things because these are the populations of patients who are going to have higher rates of heart disease, higher rates of chronic disease overall dementia, all of these things. And we really need to be, I think, spreading the gospel and spreading the ability to access it, you know, to all women. So everyone, all boats are lifted, really. - How do you code switch between those two worlds? Like, I mean, I've done, I've tried it and it's really hard. Like, it's really hard to have empathy for the woman who's like hemming and hawing over which red light helmet she's going to purchase. And need your like immediate attention versus the one who, like you said, is undocumented and, you know, in living and doesn't have a safe place to lay her head at night. Like, how do you, I don't know, hold that tension in your day to day and sleep? - Yeah, no, I mean, it's tough and to be honest, like there's kind of always a part of me that running a cash-based practice I just inherently feel guilty about. I think because I do have those patients, you know, who really have nothing and, you know, unfortunately, I think that that is just kind of the structure of how that type of care is able to make sense for a provider to do it. And, but I agree, it's tough. And for me, you know, I mean, I think that it goes back to what we were saying in the beginning of just really prioritizing good information and autonomy at the center of every conversation we have for, you know, my patient, yeah, who can't decide which red light mask they're going to do. You know, I'm in a center that person's priorities and what they are bringing to the table just as much as I would for the person who doesn't know what a menstrual cycle is. And so I think that, you know, you really have to start from where people are coming from and you build that education up over time. Both groups of people still need good information, just maybe where you're starting from in terms of having that conversation is gonna be different. But 100% it is very, very difficult. - Yeah, I love that answer. Yeah, that was a really good answer. So what do you think it would take, even in the social media space or just media space? I think we're moving into a time where we have this, it's almost like this empty palette for where in 2026, even media can go when it comes to women's health. And as someone who is kind of leading that charge, what would it take for more evidence-based care to become more accessible and maybe less performative? Like just kind of what is your vision for that? Do you see there being a space and maybe what is your plan for that? Do you have any plan to expand your menopause brand? - Yeah, it's a great question. And for me, I think it comes down to, we really just need to move away from sensationalism. You know, so much in media, maybe particularly social media and how the algorithm prioritizes things is gonna be based on either overblown comments about the dangers or the extreme benefits of hormone therapy, for example. Or really, I would argue, kind of rude takedowns of other providers or patients or individual. And so I think that we really just need to move away from that as a field because while it may serve that individual person and their growth in terms of their presence, it's not serving our patients. And that really should be where we center everything. So I think that people, again, are smart, they can make good decisions. And I think that explaining nuance is how you get into that. And it's tough, right? Especially if people don't have a baseline level of health literacy, you know, you really need to start from the basics. But I really just fundamentally trust people to be able to understand things. It just has to be explained in the correct way with kind of the right analogies to make it clear. So that's, I think, where we all collectively need to move. And I would say that that's true of media more broadly. I'm hopeful that with some of the changes that are happening with the FDA rules that just change, that we will be able to have those conversations in a more appropriate way because we're not going to be relying on these outdated information that hormones cause breast cancer that I think have dominated that conversation forever. So that's one. - In terms of, you know, my goals, I mean, obviously I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing and I'm sort of always taking different questions that come in and trying to figure out new topics and clear ways that I can explain that. But actually one goal that I would really like to do is I do want to start a podcast that is centered around educating men about menopause. Because like we've talked about, I think that men need good resources to be able to explain that. And in many ways, I think men are very misinformed about women's bodies. And so that manifests in a lot of different ways. But even just starting with like what happens in the menstrual cycle and what are the organs of the female reproductive system, I think that even just having that baseline level of knowledge to be able to bring to the table is again, hopefully going to empower the men who do care to be participants in that conversation. So that's kind of my next goal. We'll see when that actually gets off the ground. - Do you get men that message you? Like what kind of messages are you getting lately? Like are men reaching out to you? Are you getting like crazy solicitations? Like are women writing crazy like love letters to you? (laughing) Like tell us something juicy about-- - I haven't had any love letters. I've had a handful of men message me. Usually very caring messages. Like, you know, I really care about my wife. I don't know, you know, what to do. Is there a provider that you know in various place? There's a lot of clinical questions. Honestly, I mean, maybe the juicy things is I do get a fair amount of kind of hate messages about being a man in this field. And I will say, I get it. You know, it's kind of like what I said before. I think that, you know, I think that a lot of women have very negative experiences with male providers. And you know, there's even science to say that a female provider is going to provide better outcomes for you. So I always kind of joke, but not really joking that I also prefer to have a female doctor. But you know, I do get, I think, a lot of messages of people suspicious of my intentions or just basically telling me that, you know, I don't belong in this field and that it's inappropriate. And listen, I gotta say, I'm used to it. I'm a male OBGYN. Like, you know, there's always going to be those situations that come up. And for me, I never take it personally because I think that your women's health provider is one of the most important relationships that a woman can have in their life. And I think that you should feel comfortable with that person and you should feel confident in what they know and who they are. And for some people, just being a male presence in a room can be very traumatic. And so I think that, you know, for me, that's something I never take personally. But it is always a little bit jarring when I get those messages. 'Cause, you know, some people on Instagram can be quite mean, I will say. - Yeah, that's the danger of explosive growth on official media as it all comes your way, like good and bad. And I think you have to have a thick skin. You know, you wouldn't necessarily start on an Instagram to go viral. I'm sure although you're not sad about it now, it's a great thing. But do you get women also who ask you to take care of their male partners? 'Cause I feel like that's something that would, you know, I get asked a lot about that as well. Like, you know, you help me so much, Jackie, but like my husband and, you know, et cetera. And I never have a good place to send them. But I'm sure, you know, you probably, you know, dealing with the same, so. - Yeah, I would say every now and then it comes up. I definitely don't feel at all confident to deal with that. You know, I think that my training has been exclusively in OBGYN and women's health and, you know, treating female reproductive organs and physiology. So I don't treat men at all. But I do feel like there's a lot of wonderful urologists in this field who really do have that experience and many of whom very much specialize in male sexual health. And I think it's an important part of that conversation. I completely agree. And so it's something that I'm always, you know, seeking to have more and more people to send. I agree. - I'm actually waiting for the men's provider to come, you know, hit Instagram. And partially, you know, a little selfishly, I have three sons and I think that men are very underserved in this space as well, not to totally divert as a women's health podcast and provider. But I think that there's definitely room for innovation there as well. - Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think you bring up a broader point, which is that obviously I've devoted my life to the health of women and to helping women to thrive, you know, through their entire life. And that's something that I will always care about above everything. But I think that we bring up a more fundamental purpose, which is that we can't forget about everyone else who, you know, might not be involved in that conversation. You know, I would say women's health is kind of a hot topic right now and it makes me so overjoyed. But at the end of the day, we should be caring about everyone. We should be taking care of everyone equally and prioritizing all people's health. And I do think that there's a lot of people on Instagram who don't necessarily feel that way. But again, going along with getting away from that sensationalism, like men matter, women matter. We should all be caring for all people. And we should all be bringing that same passion with whatever, you know, our experience allows us to do. And so that's something that, you know, I'm just excited about. But, you know, I'll find other providers who have the actual expertise on that. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like we have enough to do as menopause providers, right? There's plenty of fish to fry. - Exactly. And endless amount of patients that need you. Where, you know, I saw that you started a sub-stack. So I know that that is like one exciting place where people can follow you for, you know, more content than the bite-size little bits of information that we're able to share on social media. I love, we love platforms, you know, that allow us to talk to people, you know, in more than 30-second chunks. So sub-stack, and then, you know, it sounds like maybe a podcast is on the horizon for you. But where else, I mean, if people are looking to become a patient in your practice, what states do you provide, Karen? Tell us a little bit about that. - Yeah. So definitely, I think Instagram is the best place, you know, that I'm most present. But yeah, the sub-stack has been a lot of fun. So that's another place you can find me. And then in terms of seeing me as a patient, so I am licensed in California and Florida. I'm working on adding some other states right now. Everything is via telehealth. I think, you know, hopefully eventually having an in-person practice. But at least right now everything is telemedicine. And so the best way is if you go to my website or my Instagram, you can book an introductory call where we can just see if we're a good fit and, you know, if I can potentially help you. So that's the best place to start. - And we'll make sure to put all of your, how to contact you, how to find you, your Instagram handle and everything in the show notes. If we could ask just one more question. What is your vision for where just menopause, women's health should go next? Like if we could really solve all of this and even thinking bigger beyond, you know, private practice, we have social media, we have private practice and just kind of traditional healthcare and everything in between. But what do you think is missing that could make this just so much better? - Yeah. For me when all other non-women's health providers are having the same conversations with women that women's health providers are having about menopause, that would be the goal. Like when we have a old white male orthopedic surgeon telling their patients that they should consider starting estrogen for the health of their bones, that's the win. So that's where I would love to see this go. And I think we need to make that happen by making menopause education a fundamental part of medical curriculum. - That is so, so good. And for the listeners that are not in the healthcare space, the reason that is is because our hormones and perimenopause and menopause impact every single body system, from our central nervous system to our bones to, I mean, our cardiovascular system, everything in between. - Exactly. - Yeah. I think that's what I'm gonna say to myself. - Well, thank you again for coming to spend time with us today. It's been a pleasure getting to, you know, chat with you things to face and not through just DMs or email. So we look forward to watching you continue to grow both online and in your practice and continue to contribute to sort of an equitable, non-sensationalized social media presence across your platforms. So congrats on your success. - Thank you. - And I can't wait to continue to collaborate with you. Going forward. - Thank you so much. I look forward to the same. And Jackie, I'll never forget that you were the first person to share me. (all laughing) - You want some of me in that credit. - Yes. - I'll take, we'll take several later. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Thank you so much, Jordan. It was such a great conversation. - Yeah, thank you. - And I'm sure we'll do it again. - I'm looking forward to it. - Okay. - Thank you. - Bye. (upbeat music) - That's a wrap on this episode of the Well Kept podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. - If you loved it, subscribe, leave us a review and share this with someone who needs it. For more, connect with us on our socials using the links in the show notes. Until next time, stay welcomed.