Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 124: Errant Duct Tape

This is exactly right. The detective said he had stalked her before she died. Years later, they said he remained the person they continued to focus on. This is Hunter Gilmourn, host of Hunting for Answers A True Crime Podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told, and to the questions that still remain. Listen to Hunting for Answers A True Crime Podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the survivor files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, and in my new podcast, what happened to her? I'm bringing you new stories every week, stories like Sandra Birch Morris, a dark narrative defined by grooming the abuse of power and an alleged cover-up. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise, sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to what happened to her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is the show where we look back on our old episodes from 2018 and ask the hard-hitting questions like, "What the hell were we talking about?" Today we're Rewinding Episode 124, which we named "Arent Duck Tape." Of course we did. This episode originally came out June 7th, 2018. Let's get into the intro of Episode 124. And begin. Hello and welcome. This is my favorite murder. This is the True Crime Podcast where we are real serious. And then there's a weird fart sound in the background. It was like, "Could you hear that steam?" Yeah. Oh. It was probably plumbing, but really threw me off my game. It was. Well, we better start. You know my game. How tight my game is. Your podcast game? Your podcast game is usually real tight. Now when you train to record, you use a small rubber ball just for dexterity and just like to throw against the walls. Throw against wall and I catch it and like you can tell, there's a montage usually where it's like my brain's getting bigger, but the podcast part of my brain is growing. And what song is playing during that montage, would you say? Dude. I have a tiger. I have a tiger all day. Every day it goes to my brain. It's not the other hit song by that same band, "My Brain Is Swelling" and it's causing and cranial pressure. No, it's just clowns laughing. That song clowns laughing. It's just a sound of multiple clowns laughing. It's pretty soothing. It's like that kind of clown that's got a cigar that looks like it just blew up, you know, like kind of trick blow-upy thing in it. 'Cause I crusty the clown. Exactly. Do you know that somebody mentioned, somebody cited this and actually said, and maybe they were just being sarcastic, but you know how we named one of our episodes, like "Breakfast Wine" or "Morning Wine"? Yeah, "Breakfast Wine" I think. It's from a recid development. Oh, really? Yeah, it's something that the mom says, which I'm sure if I said it, I stole it from that. That's all I do. No, I think I've had "Breakfast Wine" before. Okay. It's one of those phrases that are in the lexicon, you know. And the vernacular? And the vernacular. All right. Well, I just think it's funny that people would be giving us credit where it's like, you know, this show was from eight years ago, right? No, we said it first, probably. Same thing with "Murderino." That's from "The Simpsons." That is. That's how I thought of it. Just no. We didn't know that, but no, we know. No, we know. I'm going to send a season to assist to a recid development for stealing our ideas eight years ago. Okay. And putting them on TV. Yeah. Before we even met. Take that. Take that. I was working at "Breakfast and Exists" at my recid development. Ah. No. Where were you working at 2010? 2010, I believe. That's the year I decided to up and get a divorce and move to New York. I was like, should I change my fall look? You're straight up, what's her face? The throwing her hat in the air. Mary Tyler, what's. Yes. All I had to do was make the gesture, and you knew what I was talking about. Mary Tyler, more but the wrong city, and she's never Mary. But you did throw a hat in the air, yes or no? I threw a hat at people. I'm not a hat person, but I will use one as my hat. No, a cloche, a nice cloche. What's a cloche? A cloche is the 1920s, like little, they kind of flare out there and they look like German helmets. Oh, yeah. And a nice little felt cloche. Have you seen my fucking humongous face? I've seen my. I can't fit into hats and a normal lady size hat. Too small? Yeah. My giant hat. No huge head. You have a huge head? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does not look like it at all. It's a secret huge head. Really? You're keeping a great secret over there. Thank you. Me, I'm all over the map with this. I'm telling everybody with my huge head how huge my head is. Couldn't be bigger. There's nothing worse than people are like. This is sending me into a spiral of thinking about having to get ready. Have you ever had to get ready at a friend's house when you were like say you guys went to the beach all day? Yeah. Then you make a decision. Yeah. At six o'clock, we're going to go dance. Can I borrow a dress or something? Great. Great. They give you the ugliest dress they have. Ugly. Hey, how about this? Yeah. It's been laying in the bottom of my closet. How about this? Because I know you and I know you're never going to return this to me. So let me give you something I don't care. I don't care about it. Yeah. And you won't look better than me. And I don't actually care about your feelings or well-being. So just put this fucking on and shut up. I cannot tell you how many times where I'm like, well, I simply won't go to the second location with you then. That's from 30 Rock. Yes. Sighture. Always sight. Footnote. Footnote sight. Free. Yeah. And just that idea of hats or it made me think of one time my friend, I was like, can do you have sunglasses? I was so hungover. In my friend's car, she opens up her glove compartment and pulls out. No joke. They were checker boards, sunglasses, but they were also big, rounded cat eyes. So I look like the guitars from cheap tricks. Oh my god. Oh my god. And I was like, can I not be the one? I don't like attention like that. It's like raising your hand and being like, I'm hungover to everyone who walks by. I'm hungover and I might be able to sell you X to say if you ask me with the right code word. That'd be nice. All right. I want it. Luckily, we got that offer. You were saying you haven't watched any true crime shit. No, the, I've been deep into things like Howard's End, which if you haven't seen it and you like a period piece, they made it for stars, I believe. And it was with the best Mr. Darcy Matthew McFadden and a woman who you've seen in a million things, but I don't know her name, sorry. And it was so good. It was so brilliantly done. It's, it's better than the movie, which was with Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson. I can't believe you haven't seen this because I think I slipped into your brain and watched this show on Netflix, kind of new, called Safe. It's a fucking British procedural. Oh, the scroll goes missing. It's a, it's based on a book by Harlan Coban, who I guess is like a mystery writer. Okay. I think I've heard that. It's all British people. Coban with a B or an H, Cohen. C-O-B-E-N. Oh, okay. Okay. Main dude. It's the dad. He's the guy. There's some shady shit going on. What's going on? And Michael C-Haul with the hardest British accent you ever fucking heard. No, Dexter? Yeah. What? Yeah. Oh, I have so distracting. But it's also like distracting because it's so good, but it's still clearly a good fake British accent. Oh, so he's not originally British? No. No. Yeah, it doesn't seem to be, but I would love that as a reveal. No. I've been British this whole time. No, because I went to his house once. I've been to his house. Why? My friend's friend was having a party there and he was very nice and not British. Okay. All right. Although, what if at the party he was putting on an American accent because he's like, "People won't need to do my dexter thing when I'm at the party." I'm studying for a role. Usually. Oh, that wasn't bad, right? No, it was just really good. Everything we do is good. I'm really good at karaoke. It turns out, also, I have a half an hour left of killing Eve and I'm really excited about it. I just started killing Eve. Oh, you did? It's good, right? I loved it. This is too late. Sandra O. And the woman. Oh, God. She's good. That's a good show. There's also lots of great British actors in that show. Yeah, the dude who plays the bill, the boss or the asshole boss? The cool boss. I love that guy. Yeah. He's from. I knew you'd know him. So I'm going to have to think about that for a little while. But anyway, that's a delightful show, actually. And then did you see somebody tweeted at us that they went to the screening? Yeah. Marino's shirt and then a bunch of people yelled at them and they had a moment. I love it. It's very cool. I hope Sandra. Oh, I heard that and knows that we think she's rad. We love you, Sandra. She's just so cool. She plays like this bumbling detective. Yes. - I love it. - But like, it made me think of, 'cause I don't watch Grey's Anatomy. I've watched it a little bit, but I'm not obsessed with Grey's Anatomy. - I know, I'm not a Grey's. - May, Grey's? - I don't have an Anatomy. - An Anatomy. - An Anatomy. - An Anatomy. - There it is. - I'm gonna trademark that in Anatomy. - In Canada. - When she was in the movie. - So touch my toe. - When she was in sideways, which I just re-watched once again. - Okay. - 'Cause it's so good. - She is so sexy in that movie. - Uh-huh. - Just like messy hair. - And then in this one, killing Zoey. - Zoey. - Killing Eve. - That's a movie. - Okay, it is. - Yeah. - Thank God. - Why am I even pretending to be like, to know who's in anything? - Killing Zoey's a different one. - It's with the guy who was in the mask. - Erx don'ts. - And then Julie Delphi. - Whoa. - Only 'cause I had a big crush on her. - Julie Delphi? - Yeah. - Um. - Go on. - Anyway. - Well, no, no. What I was gonna say is she's the different. Oh, when I first started watching Killing Eve, all I could think of was, I can't believe it's the same person who was inside ways being this sexy girl that has the affair. - Yeah. - Because she is doing that kind of like, "Muh, dumpy thing, it's so funny." - She's good. - She's great. - I want it. Can I do a quick, uh, fucking piece of business? - Would you? It's not that boring. - Give this podcast some fucking structure. (laughs) I will not. So we have a fan cult now, a fan club that you, if you go on my favorite murder.com, you can join it. You get a free t-shirt, a fan cult t-shirt, and an ammo pin. And then we also do like, we're gonna post videos. We're gonna post old live shows that we've never posted before. - Oh yeah, I think that's a big deal actually. - Right, we haven't mentioned that. - We haven't mentioned that. I think we should start doing this week. - Yeah, the fan cult right now, it's like, you know, you pay money and then you get to be on a forum. Nobody else gets to be on and we, that's when we are like posting tour videos and stuff like that when we could. But we are going to start releasing old live shows that we've never released before on the fan cult. - Yeah. - So if you are one of those people that likes to tweet at us once a month for three years straight about how you want your episode of the show that you're at to be posted, well, guess what, join that fan cult because then that's how you're gonna be able to list it. - And actually we should start a chat room. - Is that still a thing? - I don't want to. - In the forum on the fan cults and say which ones you want to see that are from the live shows. - Oh, like start a threat. - Yeah, because I don't remember what any of them were like. But, okay, so now people are posting, so have people just started posting photos of their pets in the fan club t-shirts that they get for free and it's the best. - Of course. - I love it. I made Stephen put a slide show up on Instagram. And so I want everyone to now hashtag fan cult pets when you put your pet in there and we'll make slideshows like once a week of the pets with the t-shirts 'cause it's hilarious. - And then there was someone who posted a fucking goat in the t-shirt today and it just made my day. - That's the funniest thing because in lately, the couple times I've posted, I took the dumbest picture in the world of Georgia and then I had to post it 'cause she looked so stupid. 'Cause I was weirdly over her, so her eyes were crossed, but it looked like she was smiling. And she has these tiny little teeth anyway. Every time I post a picture of either of my dogs, people respond with pictures of their dogs. - I love it. - And it is the cutest, most fun thing 'cause then it's just like, it's as we're all pretending dogs are talking to each other. - I love it. - Normally I don't go for something like that. - It's so and so. - Exactly. - So and so, so and so. - I think in this day and age, where everything around us is an onslaught of horror, you need like a picture of a dog in a shirt. - Amen. - Thank you. - Hashtag fan cult pets. And someday I'll put Marty in his fucking fan culture, my dad, Marty, who joined the fan cult on his own accord. - God bless him. - Even though I would have given it to him for free, I'm not a fucking sheep's gay. - I would have given, I would have given you 20 bucks to go in half on Marty's membership. I have to say, people have mentioned this, but I think it's a pretty good deal. 40 bucks for one full year. - It's for a year. - Oh, it's only for a year. - Yeah, that makes more sense. - Because if you rush, if you work it out, like one of the great accountants of the world, try not to shit on accounts anymore. - That's kind of you. - That works out to you paying about a quarter an episode. One, it 25 cent piece for an episode of this podcast. - And you get a t-shirt and an animal pin and you get a talk to Marty. - You get a fucking talk to people and you get to be there on the inside line when we start doing actual shit that people care about. - And when we do, like, why are we trying to listen? Do or don't, there's no try. - Yeah. (laughing) - And we wrote that, George Lucas, not you. - That's mine, that's mine. - Do or don't, there's no choice. (laughing) - You know, at the end of the day, I mean, the first be with you. - Or not here to make friends, Bachelor. - I'm too over the ship. - All right. - Okay, so last episode was a live one from Dublin. Do you wanna go first or do you wanna go first? - Whatever you wanna do it. - How's yours? What's yours? - Weird. - Mine's dark. - Okay. - Is yours solved? - Yes. - Okay, I'm gonna go first then. - Okay, is that okay? - Yeah. - 'Cause then we'll have a good ending. - Yeah. - 'Cause mine isn't. - Do you mind if I get a cup of coffee? - No. I thought you were gonna say, do you mind if I guess what it is? (laughing) - Do you mind if I guess what the solution to your crime is? - And we're back and the crazy thing to me is that the day this came out, the next day was my 38th birthday. - Wow. How do we feel about that? I was a child. - I mean, that sounds insanely young. - I know. - We really overstayed our welcome. - We have beyond belief. We have. We've aged ourself out of this entire conversation. - Truly, truly. - It's, yeah, that is so weird. Also, like in the beginning, we're distracted because there's a farting sound. - Yeah. - What was, do you remember any of that? - I don't know, but was that one one of our throats made that sound that got off of like in your throat burping noise that's so embarrassing? I think it was that. - Oh yeah, when you, when it's like a, it's almost like a little bubble, like a cartoon bubble sound. - Yeah. - I can't believe that series of Howard's end is that long ago. I fucking, like I was looking at that, I would have told you that, that show came out three years ago. - I still haven't watched that. - Is that adjacent to Pride and Prejudice? - Vibemwise, it will be similar 'cause it's a period piece. - All right. - It's really good. And our boy, Matthew McFadden, Mr. Darcy, is the, is the husband of it. So, but he's very different and he's amazing. But the woman who's the lead. - He's got a mohawk in this one. - He's got a mohawk. It's crazy. He plays the guitar. (laughs) - But it's Edwardian England. - Okay, yeah. - But it's a really well done series. It's just a very well, it's really good. - Okay, then since I have surprised ourselves by being into this kind of thing lately. So, - Yes. - I'm down. - Let me give you my list. (laughs) - Please. - Oh, the fan cult is still thriving everyone. And you're not gonna believe this. We're now and always accepting new members. - I mean, it started just like a hope of prayer and a dream and still going strong at fancult.supercast.com. Go be a part of it. - Yeah, membership includes ad free audio and video content that we make and love. Merch and pre-sales and fan features. So, check that out. - How about an example? There's a video of us making our favorite after school snacks. - Yeah, we're doing this stuff that is important for 2026. - That you've been asking for us since 2018. - That's right. It's all happening over there. - And yes, my dad is still a member of the fan cult. - Is he, is Marty still in? - Of course. - He didn't quit. - No. - Well, he hasn't mentioned it in a while, but (laughs) - My dad actually texted me 'cause he was like, your aunt said she saw you on Netflix and it was good. I was just like, "Well, maybe that last part was unnecessary." - Oh, wow. - I love my aunt, Joe. She's like, what am I, I mean, I'm great ants, but my aunt does the best. And she texted me the nicest text 'cause she watched an episode on Netflix and it was so sweet. And then it's like, it got back to my dad. - That's so cute. - I'm just like, see other people like it. - I got a bunch of texts from my aunties talking about CBS Sunday morning and being like, "Imagine my surprise when I turned on my favorite show and there you were." - People love that show. - I know. - They love it. - They love it. - Well, let's show we get into it. - I really, my story this week is just one of those that, "Oh, I made, oh, it sticks with you and why isn't it solved yet." - Yeah, that's, it's a crazy cold case from Australia. Here's George's story about Mr. Cruel. - The detective said he had stalked her before she died. - This is Hunter Young-Worm, post of Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast. - Shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told and to the questions that still remain. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. - All right, all right. We're back. - We're back with coffee. - You're coffeeed? - I'm just, uh, It's less for the caffeine and more just to brown my teeth down a tiny bit more You just got to get that perfect mocha. I'm tanning my teeth All right Okay, yeah, listen look it's finally fucking time to look and listen Okay to Mr. Cruel. Oh, I know good good one. I know, right? It hit me. Yeah, I'd been starting it forever and then just with this whole golden state killer thing Which I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing us talk about who cares fuck them. I'll never stop talking about it I'm I'll never stop. But wait where you are you starting with this because the mr. Cruel The first piece of news the day of the arrest or the day before the arrest the day that it was announced that the golden state killer A suspect had been to apprehended. So it wasn't even like yeah Because I have a golden state killer and Iran's on my ghoul alert So I get those news things whenever they come out cool, and it was just a news piece that said Is the golden state killer mr. Cruel? Yeah, it's like that's weird just out of the blue somebody's just like asking that question And then it was like several hours later where they're like they have a DNA right So but also they were like golden state killer linked to mr. Cruel Cruel, which is really exciting The thought of killing like two birds. I guess that's a bad way of saying it like fucking catching these two elusive You know, I'd say equally fucking traumatic cases. Yeah at the same time would have been awesome didn't happen But we'll talk about that. What's what I won't talk a lot about that, but what about actually would have been Beyond crazy because it's like golden state killer in and of itself is mind blowing. Yeah crazy And then the idea of that where it's like then you're just just pulling down yeah all kinds of cases So this so mr. Cruel I want to say it was similar But it at the you know of what it did to the public, but I think it's it's golden state killer was so little known And it wasn't known his scope and how much later right so it's hard to say that but it this is one of those cases where It changed life in the suburbs in Melvin's like outer reaches forever in the 80s one of those oh the 80s are fucked up We can't let our kids play outside. Yeah, it just left in the fucking indelible scar on that. Yeah, that sounds smart It did sounds smart. You're good. All right. There we go. I didn't make up a word You didn't you you used it you used it correctly. Thank you and you didn't even stop until the end Yeah, they didn't even question myself until the end. All right. Here we go In the late 80s to early 90s in the suburbs of Melvin, Australia a serial pedophile rapist known as mr. Cruel Was fucking traumatizing everyone. All right. Here we go. So on December 27th, 1988 in Ringwood Which is a working class suburb of Melvin and about 5.30 a.m A man wearing a blue ski mask and dark blue overalls breaks into the home of John and Julie Willes Where they live with their four daughters Um, he first goes to the parents bedroom and puts a gun to mr. Willes temple Julie starts screaming to her daughters to fucking run for it. Oh, could you imagine waking up to your mother screaming run? Yes No, I can't please he tells her to stop screaming and asks Uh, he tells her stop screaming and asks the dad if he's going to be a hero Which is such a fucking threatening thing to ask someone he forces them to lie faced down on their bed and ties them up with copper wire He he tells them and this is one of his ruses that I'm just here for money. So they're more compliant. So they let them Uh, they let him tie them up and they take 35 dollars the span takes 35 dollars in a nightstand and Then this man heads for the kids room cuts the telephone cables goes in the bedroom where 10 year old Sharon and her siblings are sleeping. Uh, I know Okay, this is fucked up and horrible and children are involved in it's big, you know But also it's one of the most famous cases out of Australia and when we were there We people would talk to us about it all the time and it was like for live shows. You just can't do these Yes, this is this is the kind of one you can only do on it. No one forgets these and the horrible You know, it's like the atom wash one for us. It's it's not solved and it's fucking insane and very solvable. Yeah maybe okay So Sharon is a 10 year old. She's a choir girl. She plays a lot of musical instruments She sings in the Victoria's children's choir He addresses her by name Which he maybe knew because their house had been featured in the newspaper six months earlier after the home cut on fire Or maybe from being in the choir But that thing of like you see a child in the newspaper and these fucking pat like we should stop printing children's names and newspapers maybe I mean If only that would solve it Correct. Yes, you were right. So he lifts Sharon from her bunk blindfolds and gags her and After grabbing a few items of Sharon's clothing, he leaves the home with her It takes mr. Mrs Well, 15 minutes should get free. They see that there are daughters missing and their phone cords been cut They go next door wake up the neighbors and they call the police There's no trace of Sharon and no witnesses could be found They have press conferences the cops are going crazy to find her 18 hours later just after midnight a woman finds Sharon standing on a street corner I forgot to fucking translate this six kilometers from her home Which I think is just a couple miles. Right. I think it's like three miles or so. Yeah So she's three miles from home. She's wearing a man's shirt and wrapped in garbage bags. Oh my god But she's alive and in a calm voice. She says to the woman my name Sharon Wells and I was taken from the home my home Early this morning a man left me here and told me to go and ring home This woman was like what the fuck. Yeah She described Sharon as being brave and calm and police were called and Sharon has brought home Uh, she had been blindfolded throughout her whole 18 hour ordeal So she couldn't describe her attacker, but she was able to give them many other details about her timing captivity The man had taken her to a house and sexually assaulted her Um, she said he was occasionally gruff but mostly soft-spoken and seem to be caring and she even used the word gentle Mm-hmm, which is so fucking creepy. He gave her a glass of milk and a vegemite sandwich and some lemonade So he was like feeding her and caretaking her before he let her go though. He made her shower thoroughly. Yeah. He brushed and flushed her teeth And he trimmed and cleaned her nails Thoroughly washing away any forensic evidence. So clearly he was aware of it even in 1988 He was he then I just go cop cop cop right so everyone fucking things like he lay a sheet down on the bathroom Floor make her stand on it after the bath and and like dressed her there like wouldn't even let her feet hit the ground wow um And she describes police how she made her stand in a large plastic garbage bag Which she pulled up and taped to her shoulders put another bag over her head and taped it to her body before cutting out a small hole for her face And then dropped her off a few miles from her house telling her to walk to the nearest house to call home So $100 no $100,000 reward is offered for information on Sharon's abduction This is the first reward offered in an abduction case in the state's history Well, so they'd never offered a reward before there were a couple suspects, but nobody panned out His next abduction took place 18 months later on July 3rd 1990 in Canterbury Just over 10 miles from Sharon's house. It's an affluent suburb 13-year-old girl Nikola Linus She's in her 15-year-old sister Fiona. They're home alone and their families run to the house but their parents were out And they were only supposed to be gone for like two hours So at least think that the sky was canvassing the area the Linus family Uh was moving back to England after the father's three-year transfer had ended for his job at price water house So they were packed and then we're ready to leave within a few days And the party that they're the where the parents were at was a farewell party for them Nikola is dry is described by her parents as a hardworking girl one of the top students At about 11.30 p.m Both girls are shaken awake by a masked man armed with a long knife and a handgun Who'd crept through a weird window of the house wearing a black ski mask 15-year-old Fiona is tied up and left on her bed while 13-year-old Nikola is forced into another room and told to gather her school uniform blazer Tunic and runners. Those are her shoes. Yeah for those. Yeah, not from Australia Um before leaving with her mr. cruel tells Fiona to tell her father That he would release Nikola unhurt if they paid a $25,000 ransom Huh, so mr. cruel then walks Nikola out of the house and uses the lot Feels the Linus' family rented car and fucking takes off in that car So mr. and Mrs. Linus arrived home about 30 minutes later. They find Fiona on her bed I've tied up a massive search begins and mr. Linus spoke in a press conference and offered the ransom money But mr. cruel didn't reach out. They couldn't get a hold of him. He's foolish. It was another fucking red herring So they would look into his his business dealings all of that shit. Oh right and be distracted by something else just like in the past one where they were like he was there for money, he was stealing shit, right? No. Instead, they found the rented car a couple blocks away, so he had just driven it to his car as another way to throw off police. The following day, Nikola is left alive, the side and electric and electricity substation in queue about three miles from her home just before 2 a.m. She's fully clothed, she's wrapped in a blanket, it was her 14th birthday. She went home and called her father. She went to a home and called her father, so she had been gone for 50 hours. Shit. She tells police about her, that her abductor had driven her to the area and then when he was taking her back, he had driven her there, walked her around a little kind of to confuse her while her eyes were taped shut, made her sit with her head between the legs and took off and he was gone by the time she removed her blindfold that she had been wearing for 50 fucking hours. She told police that she was masked and bound throughout the ordeal but was not threatened with violence. She had been given food and drink, she had described her attacker as affectionate and chummy. Like what a fucking psychopath. Yeah, this dude is. Also, it's making me think of Paul Holes on Twitter. Somebody said, do you think that the East Area rapist or the Golden State killer could also be this case and they brought up some other Northern California str. And maybe it was the I-5 Strangler. It made just somebody out another case and then he was talking about the difference between the M.O.s. One is. Yeah, I remember that's like one is a friendly person and one is strong. Yeah, stroking the hair, pretending that it's a consensual situation. Exactly. And then Golden State killer is a state of safety. And it's psychological asshole. Leave that in. I mean, what if you say stuff and then I'll just read Paul Holes Twitter. Come up from now on in your stories or I was just you reading Paul Holes Twitter. I might have to go to therapy. More therapy. More therapy. He calls her Missy during fantasy games he played with her. She said he was meticulous in covering his forensic tracks and she also told him that he had watched the press conference where her father had spoke with her in the room and he was commenting on it to nickel about it. Like, can you imagine being a kid not person and you're in the room where your father's pleading for your fucking return and he's just like commenting on it? That's so dark. It's so dark. It must. It's so disorienting and upsetting anyway and then you're just kind of like you're through the looking glass. I think that like I think at some point in the past 10 years it hit me how terrifying being blindfolded must be. Yeah. So it kind of gives me a panic attack whenever I think about that. Yeah. So that and then to be hearing what's going on on the TV too has to be so scary and okay. It was then reported. So then the cops at this point police are able to connect these two cases. Sharon and Nicolas and they didn't make this public. They connected these two cases and then they realized that there had been another attack that they could link it to beforehand in August of 1987. So this is the previous one and about an 11-year-old girl she's never been named. And about 4 a.m. wearing a mask and carrying a small handgun and a large hunting knife, he removes a window pane and a lounge of the house in the suburb of Lower Plenty is the name of the suburb of Melbourne. Remember when we were in Melbourne? Remember? Like this is so cute here. No, it's a scary place. But they have such cute dresses. The best dress is. Okay. So he first again and it's in a couple of these stories that I run online. It sounds like he went straight to the parents room like he knew what rooms everyone was in. Meaning he can't be sneezing that shit. He's watching them. Exactly. So he wakes the parents and forces until my end of stomachs ties their hands and feet. He uses expertly tied knots commonly used by sailors and those familiar with securing loads. Again, the knots are like distinct. And then he gags them and puts surgical tape over their eyes and locks them in their bedroom closet. He says get into the wardrobe and sit down. All I want is money. Liar. Liar. So like, of course they're complicit. Complicit. Complicit. Compliant. Compliant. All of them as complacent. Because they're like, oh, he just wants money. I don't need to defend my family. Let's just go along with what he says. It's such a great ruse because if he were like, I just want to kill your daughter. They'd be like, fuck this shit. I'm going to I'm going to fight to the death, right? You know? Yes. Exactly. There's an element of relaxation because it's like he can take anything you want. That's what everyone says in that horrible situation. It's just like, who cares? Take it. I don't hurt us. And he's like, I'm not going to I just want money. So they go along with it, which is so evil. So there's the next thing that happens is our six-year-old son is blindfolded and gagged and he's tied to his bed. And then and remember this is the first known Mr. Cruel attack. Then he spends the next two hours in the house sexually assaulting the 11-year-old daughter in the house. He stays in the house. He doesn't kidnap her. So if this is truly his first attack, which we don't believe it is, of course, then he's he's clearly with these other two cases that I already talked about escalating. Yeah. He takes them away and keeps them for longer and longer times. But in this one that happened before, he doesn't in the fucking house. He's in no hurry. He even takes a break to make something to eat in the kitchen, just like the fucking Golden State Killer. And I wonder and I don't mean to like question you on this. Well, if the knots are the same, these knots are even similar to the Golden State Killer. Well, remember because he spent some time in the maybe in Australia. That's why they were wondering if he was had something to do with this case. Diangelo did? Yeah. The Golden State Killer, Joseph DiAngelo spent time in the Navy in Australia. Shit. Yeah. But in that time frame or before? Way before, like in the late 60s. So he was familiar with it. Going there wouldn't have been a weird thing for him. No, no, no, no. But I wonder if those knots were taught in the Navy or in Australia for some reason. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yes. He also searched the home and he did steal a box of classical records and a coat. But they think that was a red harem too, but I'm like maybe I've just fucking indoor classical records. Or maybe he's like one of those fucking weirdos that's all grabby and like I need something. Yeah. This is the closest thing. So listen, girls and guys check your dad's record collection and see if he has an air in box of classical music and then turn him into the Melbourne police Australian classical music. That's right. So the girl later told police that he had made a phone call near her while she was tied up and threatened another family with physical violence. Oh, fuck. She said he told the person on the phone to move their children or they would be in danger and that he called the person he phoned Bozo. He like that was one of his like nicknames for people. But when police checked the phone records, it revealed there was no phone call made. So that was another red harem for her to tell them about that. But I don't understand that. I don't believe it. I don't know why, but that creeps me out worse than everyone talking to nobody on the fake phone. Yes, I hate that so much. It's like, I get because I hate bad acting and you know it was bad acting. But like, but that idea of I'm doing something like it's there's a control element to it. I'm doing something and it's not for anyone but this girl right here and the police who come and yeah, it's like a shock and awe thing. It's like you don't know what's going on and then you more don't know what's going on. It's like it's a call was coming from inside the house type of thing. Yeah, but the phone records have been shitty back then because that doesn't make any sense. Unless he's just trying to make this girl think that he is a full full time 24/7 criminal you know rapist threat that where it's like he's such a bad guy. I'm going to go do my other thing. Right, right. So they they think I was just a red herring which was one of his stupid signatures. This fucking asshole. Okay, so this connection made Mr. Cruel a household name and that the name Mr. Cruel comes now when he's described by the Victorian police in a late Victoria police not Victorian police because I would have that would be a weird time traveling thing. There's a jack the ripper's investigators like oh and really really quick. There's going to be a future case. No, that's my mustache really. That's not what happened. Victoria police in the late 80s described this guy in the papers as super cool and super cruel and so some fucking smart out journalist was like that's his name Mr. Cruel. Wait, sorry. Who would describe this guy as cool? Missed like cool as in like cool as a cucumber. Like he hung out at the house and said he's not worried about getting it. Yeah, not like, you know, who's cool, not like the fans. Yeah. There you go. Thank you. This is the only cool person I can think of. And you were right. I was thinking of just the worst people. Okay, name one person you were thinking of. I forgot already. You know, Kato Kaelin. Cool. You know, you know, kind of guy you'd want to talk to at a party. Kato Kaelin. You know, what if it was Kato Kaelin? No, it's not. It's not and we're not suggesting. No, I've met him. Very nice person. Very nice. Everyone says he's the nicest. He's and cool and cool. That's one thing - I think there's air about them, super cool. - Okay. So the police are now very concerned because, and the police, I want to give them credit and the investigators were fucking on this shit hardcore from like from get, like they from get, from get, except they fucked up a little bit, but I'll tell you about that later. Okay. So police are worried because the time lapse between his attacks is decreasing while the time he holds his victims is increasing. And so the police announced that they believe Mr. Cruel to be responsible for at least six attacks before this since 1984. So but they didn't give descriptions, but they did say that not all the victims were children, but they didn't like tell you which attacks they were, but they think that he's escalating. Yeah. And these other ones, these older ones fit his MO. Also the idea of children being the victim as an escalation marker makes a lot of sense because it's like to attack a person near you, to attack another adult or whatever. But it is especially evil and disgusting and, and awful to be like take a 10 year old out of their bed. Absolutely. But you think that that wouldn't be the escalation because you'd attack a kid first because they'd be easier to handle than an adult, like a woman, an adult woman. I know. Yeah. I mean, it's all, it's all, listen, don't do either. Look, look and listen. Don't do. Stop it. Stop it. Or are you the serial killer listening to this podcast, do us a favor and fucking knock it off. Please, get help. You need help or just go, go into the woods for a while. Yeah. Just stay away. Just don't do it. Please. People have plans. They have fun stuff they want to do. So, so because very little evidence is left behind because he's so good at hiding his tracks. The investigation and finding him is a total dead end, even though they're fucking crazy looking. One piece of evidence that emerged and later interviews with Sharon and Nicola was at both girls. This is so fun. Creepy. We're called hearing low flying planes over the house where they were held captive. Oh, oh. What do you think that meant for a second, I think you meant that they had heard low flying planes like days before. Oh, he was a fucking parachuting in a bi plane like a recon. That would be so scary. That would be horror is like the red baron is coming after you. Oh, no, that's not what happened though. But that's actually, it's the other thing of you're blindfolded and so then you can fucking hear it. And you're traumatized. So, you're listening to everything and you're, you know, you're just laying there. Oh, nice. Yeah. I feel so happy with them. So they hear low flying planes where they were held captive. Nicola said that it sounded like the plans were coming into land, which is like girl, got it. To pinpoint flight paths and based on the description from the girls about the frequency and loudness of the flights, which is so interesting that like every little detail counts. You know, when everyone's like, is there anything else you can think of? I told you everything. It's like you just don't know what can matter. Yeah. So the, so based on all of that, they determined that the girls had heard planes on the flight path to telemarine airport. So they like pinpointed the fucking airport near Melbourne. So Mr. Cruel's final known attack. All right. This is fucking depressing. Mr. Cruel's final known attack takes place nine months after Nicola's attack on the evening of Saturday, April 31st. That's not right. April 13th, 1991 in Temple's toe. It's a high end suburb of Melbourne close to the other attacks. The 13 year old Carmen Chan is home babysitting her two younger sisters, which is a totally normal occurrence. As their parents worked long hours in the family, the successful Chinese restaurant was just 10 minutes away. The hard, the chance or hardworking couple, they built a small restaurant and property development empire since migrating from Hong Kong 16 years earlier. They worked like 15, 16 hours a day. Their home is described as being like a fortress. So it's a 18 room house and it's protected by a two meter fence with electric front gates. So they're not fucking around on security. So leaving their three daughters at home is not that big of a deal because they've taken measures. Yeah. Carmen went to the same school as Nicola, which is a little coincidence or is it a red flag herring? We don't know. Is it a herring wrapped in a flag? A red flag herring is a new thing. Carmen's principal describes her as charming, polite, enthusiastic, and lovely. She had a large group of friends and was extremely hardworking. So the sisters are watching a documentary about Marilyn Monroe in Carmen's bedroom, went around 9 p.m. The two older sisters, Carmen and the sister decided to go to the kitchen, but they're stopped in the hallway by a strange man in a bala clava. And he's carrying a large knife. Now you've seen this fucking drawing of the bala clava that's supposedly handmade and has these crazy white stitches around the eyes of around the mouth. It's so upsetting. We're going to post it on Instagram when we post the episode tomorrow. It's very terrifying. It's just like worse than a regular bala clava somehow. And also when we oftentimes these kinds of stories come up, the idea of walking, you're in your house, you think you know what's happening, stepping into hallway and there's that like my therapist described as being mirror neurons where when you picture something happening to someone, you actually get the sensation and the feeling and the stress reactor and the stress reactor because that's us empathizing with each other, but that idea of, you know when something weird happens in your brain, like you can't, you feel yourself not registering it because it's so weird. Or you almost like, I feel like if I saw that I would go, what's going on? Like you think it's a joke. Exactly. You don't consider that it's immediately a threat. Yeah. There's a time time where you're just like, there's not someone in the hallway. Your brain has to catch up to it and what it means or what's dad is dad playing a trick on us. Exactly. Like it's so upsettingly awful. This is why I'm like pepper spray first. Like if you accidentally pepper spray your dad because he was playing a trick on you, then your dad fucking deserves it. Yeah. I think that's a great way to teach pranksters. They're boundaries. Yeah. Kick someone in the dick if they jump out and scare you. If it turns out that it's your friend fucking with you, then they deserve it. Well then they won't fuck with you anymore. Absolutely. For sure. No one will fuck with you anymore. No one. No one. No one. What was that? Why don't I talk like that? I like that I just explained why somebody in the hallway is scary as if that was my new idea for this fucking podcast. Come on. We can say whatever we want. We really can. It's really silly. No one can stop us. No one, but no one. All right. Okay. So, back to the horoscope. Bala clava. Here's what's scary about it. It's like, he has, you know, like even in the Golden State Killer when he's wearing the Bala clava ski mask, you can see what his shape his eyes are with, yeah, maybe like the skin around or what color it is. This one is made so it's just peep holes. Yeah. It's awful. You can't see his mouth. You can't describe a lip shape. Anything like that. It looks like something out of a metallic video where it's like, oh, this is a, it's this creature that's down at the bottom of a, a clay pit. Are you suggesting James Hatfield as the mystery is Mr. Krull? I'm saying, why don't we look at him when it's so obvious when, was, where was he? Were they touring Australia? Were they, I do know they kicked off their, um, uh, they kicked off one of their tours in Petaluma at the Phoenix Theater, which is so hilarious. Why? Because they were a barrier band and they were, they were small and we were small and they were like, well, start there. These, these people, I was called you guys, Hicks, I'm sorry, uh, we, we are Hicks, for sure. We have Hicks. But we contain so much more. Multitudes. Okay. Stop it. This is horrible. It's the worst. Okay. Okay. He grabs, uh, both the girls in the hallway by their hair, forces, Carmen's, two younger sisters into a closet, bars the door with the bed. The two younger girls later tell police that the intruder had called out. I won't hurt you, um, but and by the time the girls pushed their way out of the cupboard, I think it was like 15 minutes later, there's no trace and no sign of Carmen. Police dogs trace Carmen sent through the house, passed the family's car in the driveway, which they find is spray painted with the words payback, payback Asian drug dealer and more to come. Fuck. Ready? Ready? Ready? You know, they are, they, they track across the garden and the tennis court through the gate. And they'll, the scent is lost on the street, um, based on the MO course, the police are like, this motherfucker, Mr. Cruel, this is bad. So and unfortunately search for Carmen starts out badly because are you ready for this? Listen, if I can amen, they, they were all these, uh, task forces put together, everyone tried really hard to solve this. It didn't work. Look, here's a negative thing. You can listen, the initial police officer in charge of that night, set up the command post inside of the car, the Carmen's house, the crime scene inside the house. Oh, oh, oh. So he brought everyone and he was like, this is a crime scene. Everyone get in here. Meet me in the middle of the house. Shit. Yeah. But it's the late 80s. Uh, 91. So basically, uh, that's, that might be too late to have made that. Yeah. The town, the tennis course, something, yeah, if it's an 18 room house, yeah, uh, outside. Yeah. So, so the, so people were swarming the house, which was supposed to be a crime scene, which meant it wasn't sealed off as it should have been possibly destroyed by the police. out of evidence. But knowing Mr. Kruel had released Sharon Wells after 18 hours in Nikola Linus after 50, the chance had hoped that their daughter would be home soon. But those deadlines passed and there was no sign of Carmen and no word for Mr. Kruel. So because of the scraping in the car police also spent months sifting through every aspect of Mr. Chan's life to see if the adduction was maybe drug or business related. Well, they'd have to. Yeah, they did. They didn't think it was. They kind of knew it wasn't but had to. Yeah, which takes, it's like work time, money. Exactly. Fucking waste. They found Mr. Chan was squeaky clean and that the slogans were another red herring and had sent the police on another wild goose chase. So so Nikola and Carmen went to the same school. Carmen had been abducted, abducted during a school holiday. And the other girls had been abducted around or on school holidays too. So the investigator supplies that maybe Mr. Kruel was worked in education or had a partner who did and then that partner had gone away out of town for the school holiday. Oh, yeah. So they fucking asked everyone all these crazy questions. That might have been another red herring too to like spend time asking teachers and principals and people who work for the questions too that didn't have anything to do with it. It's a funny because there already are so many red herrings in case like this and then just adding yeah more to the pilot and it leads it back to it's a cop. Right, right. So a dramatic quote, police need your help poster. And it's almost like, to me, this reminds me of when we used to see the milk carton, the kids on milk carton. It's just like terrifying thing when we were kids. This poster showed photographs of the three known victims and offered a $300,000 reward for information leading to Mr. Kruel's conviction. It sent it was sent to every home in Victoria and some in New South Wales and South Australia, which was a first, every single home. Wow. Huge versions were plastered on hundreds of billboards and smaller ones were displayed on Melbourne's buses and trams. It changed life in Australia forever. In the standard, we thought it was safe. Oh no, it's the 80s. No one is safe. That was my quote way. That's right. So Phyllis Chan. Oh honey, the mother. Okay, I want, in a lot of podcasts, this is the part where they'll just start playing her talking at this press conference, which is the most traumatizing sad, scary thing I've ever heard in my life. So I'm not doing that because she's so upset. She, it's, if you listen to it, if you can handle shit like this, but I, I was, listen, picture, and I was walking through H&M and I was listening in the case file, the case file episode, and then it just starts playing. And like, I got just chills down my whole body. It's so like the grief you can hear in her voice is heartbreaking. Yeah. So she makes these emotional pleas to him, to Mr. Cruel, to bring her daughter home. She offers rewards. She offers to switch places. She offers her life for her daughter. No, no, no. I know. That's also a person. It's, I mean, like obviously that's what any mother's going to feel, but then it makes me go, she, she wasn't in a good place to be making any statement whatsoever. If you're, well, they know he's watching. So they're like, let's just let her talk. And she calls, she says, I won't call you Mr. Cruel. I'm calling you Mr. Kind because I know you're kind and you'll let her go. Like just trying to fucking, that's a good psychology. Right. Trying to reason with him. It's so heartbreaking. So for almost a year, there's hope of Carmen, say for sure. But on April 9, 1992, just four days short of the first anniversary of Carmen's abduction, a man is walking his dog along Agbira's creek in Thomas town when he discovers a human skull and some in a landfill. DNA confirms it's Carmen's skull and she'd been shot three times in the head. They were able to find some other bones, but she'd been shot three times in the head. The head of the homicide squad thinks that Carmen's body had been there for nearly 12 months. Oh, maybe since the beginning, which is so heartbreaking. That's the worst. Yeah. They, investigators think that it's the most likely reason for the change from kidnapper to killer is that Carmen somehow managed to see Mr. Cruel's face. Oh, yeah. Something he had painstakingly avoided with other victims through the use of mask and blindfold. He had told one victim before to not to look at him saying, my freedom is more important than your life. And Carmen's mother Phyllis told police that her daughter was not the sort of girl to accept captivity without a fight. And she thought that Carmen may have ripped off her blindfold and confronted Mr. Cruel. For nearly three years after Carmen's found 40 investigators named the Spectrum Task Force followed 10,000 tip-offs tips. One of the victims said she saw a camera and tripod at the end of the bed. She had peaked. And, yeah, I know, which affirms the speculation that Mr. Cruel likely created homemade porn to keep his trophies. So then they like have to look through all this shared homemade porn and see if they can find the porn made of these girls, which like you've got to think about the people on that task force who had to then watch fucking hours and hours and hours of child porn. Oh, it's horrible. How awful is that? Yeah, there's so much there's there's so much. Even thinking about something like that is really upsetting. Yeah, and the idea that those people do that is for a living. It makes you understand the whole like the whole trope of like coming home and not wanting to tell your significant other how your day was because you just watch hours of child porn to catch a killer who's not the loose, you know. And like you get why they like kind of disassociate and become like yeah, different people. This is the world that they this is how the world is to them. Yeah, and they don't want to let their husband or wife or partner know what it's like. Of course not sucks. Okay, so another burst of public. They can't they have leads but they no one pans out. There's another burst of public. No publicity in 1993 after police released details and sketches of the interior of Mr. Cruel's house where he held his victims because they because the girls peaked out at one of the girls peaked out of her blindfold even though it was like fucking risking her life. Sharon and Nicola were able to provide police with aspects of parts of the inside of the house were like including like let them their sketches online you can see like crime of crude but like layout of the bathroom where the toilet was where the sink was where the bathtub was what color the fucking carpet was like little weird details that if you lived there you wouldn't you know you would be like that's my bedroom well and also just if you read those and then you're like wait a second yeah George's bathroom is like that yeah I mean and they have a carpet that's green that that's so creepy so creepy um also like one of the girls was able to tell them what site of how she entered the how entered on from the parking lot so like even those little things they they could search houses and they ended up searching 30,000 houses based on this all this information all the information that we're given it's insane yeah it's they really worked this case overall operation spectrum was Victoria police's largest ever investigation at the time it changed the way all Victorian detectives conduct investigations for almost a four million dollar manhunt though turned up little in the way of answers to who Mr. Cruel was okay another roadblock was that some of the evidence from prior Mr. Cruel attacks from before had been lost including tape Mr. Cruel used to bind one of his victims in an earlier case that wasn't one of these and because uh people because they get skilled more skilled with time the older ones are so important because maybe they were less skilled they were a little messier yeah but they couldn't find that there was so there was no DNA that could be found from that and the stink that the spectrum operation spectrum detective kicked up because they couldn't find those exhibits records from earlier sex crimes prompted a review by Victoria police and introduced a reduction of minimum standards for all future major crime investigation and it covered such things as forensic crime scene preservation and other aspects of the investigation and because of that the police force became more professional it strengthened legislation regarding sex and child pornography as well good the tax force was disbanded though in January of 1994 after detectives had eliminated more than 27 thousand suspects it did but it didn't catch Mr. Cruel but the investigation led to 74 people being charged with offenses including rape incest blackmail attempted bestiality oh no possession of child pornography threats to kill making obscene phone calls and firearm offenses they worked for 29 months I said all that okay since Carman's murder there have been no more apparent crimes committed that could be connected to Mr. Cruel they ended and remember when fucking GSK ended in 86 they were like he had to have died people don't end yeah people don't stop yeah one theory is that that the the actual Mr. Cruel was interviewed and feared that he was on a suspect list so he just was too scared and stopped that's one theory the FBI got involved their analysis stated that he's a functional individual who has a steady employment she's generally regarded as a good neighbor quiet polite someone introverted maybe involved in certain community-minded projects like so just a fucking everyday dude yeah they built a profile of a man aged between 35 and 40 slightly built with sandy or ginger-colored hair. - Softly spoken and quite caring in his own monstrous way. In fact, one of the victims told police that he, when he bathed her after, he bathed her, quote, like a mother washing a baby. - Good. - I know. - So he's having this totally separate fantasy experience where this is a consensual fucking relationship with a child. - Right. And saying to them, he said to one of the girls, I'm gonna bring you home in 50 hours. He brought her home in exactly 50 hours. Like this to him is just this little moment. - Yeah. - He, it's just something he needs to do. - Right, everything's okay. - And he is not a monster because he's not killing them in his mind probably, you know? - So then in April of 2016 in the lead to the 25th anniversary of Carmen's murder, Victoria Police released a 1994 dossier to the Harold Sun newspaper. Basically containing intimate details of the case that hadn't been released and contained information about seven possible suspects that hadn't been ruled out since then. - Oh. - So including details of the prime suspect. So the prime suspect was then a 75 year old, he's like now, a 70, late 70 year old former Melbourne university lecturer named Brian Allen Elkner who wrote all these like creepy fucking like Marquita sod style papers about evil and how doing evil is like an art form. And it's like all gross. In the late, in the 1970s, he was arrested and prison for 10 years after pleading guilty to a series of rapes and other violent sexual offenses against young girls and women, including attacks at knife point in their homes. But he's like, hey, I know I'm the prime suspect. I didn't do it. Leave me alone, I paid my dues. - But what the fuck? - Yeah. - And he just, he serves 10 years in prison for being a violent child rapist. And then he's like, and now I'm gonna get a job at the fucking university. - No, I think he went back to his job as a lecturer. Like he had already done that. - Guys, it's gotta change. - We gotta not. - We gotta, we gotta keep it. - There's gotta be a qualified lecturer who's not a fucking child rapist. - There's gotta be other choices. - There's gotta be someone else in the bunch. - I can't. - Just the idea of people being like, oh yeah, I was a serial rapist, but I went to jail for 70 years. Now it's done. It's like, but we've been proven it doesn't end like that. - No, and it's like, and even if it did, you don't get a free pass after. Like, I know it's like, they paid their dues. No, you didn't. - No, that's not enough dues. - That's not enough dues. At million years aren't enough dues. You're not allowed to fucking sexually assault and rape women or men. Like it's just, and especially fucking children. - And you're gonna get it for the rest of your fucking life. So now all these like newspapers are like following him and he's like, you're, what you're doing to me is to say, you know, you're harassing me and I'm a victim to now saying like he was like when I was a kid. - Nobody. - No, you're not good. - That's what I fucking say. You're God down, name Brian Allen. Elknery, piece of shit. Fuck you. - Well, also it's the thing of, here's the thing, you know, if you're gonna go choose to be a serial rapist, which is what the choice you made, this will be something that impacts your future life. Like maybe you'll be suspected of other things after. - Right. - You don't just get to wipe the slate clean. There's a reason he's like, yeah, police call me after every time there's some kind of, you know, predator on the list. - Yeah, dummy. - Yeah, because you're a predator. - Yeah. - You're a predator. - I don't give a shit if you've never fucking done it again. You always prove you've never done it. - Right, you can't agree. - So Victoria and police have confirmed that they investigated and ruled out a connection to the state's infamous and identified offender, Mr. Cruel, to the GSK, to the state killer, but they shared a ton of traits as we already said. And they were both highly premeditated and surveilled neighborhoods for weeks at a time. From what I can tell, they don't have DNA on Mr. Cruel at all, but I could see them having it and not telling anyone. - Wait, so then how do we know that they ruled about? They just, by timelines and stuff? No, they didn't rule them out. - Oh, the GSK. - The Golden Seikiller, yes, he, yeah, it's not him. - Oh, okay. - Maybe by DNA, I don't know. But hopefully, hopefully they do have it and they'll be able to run it through that shit and solve it soon, 'cause that would be another great fucking win. - Yeah, that'd be amazing. - Yeah. - Well, also that's just such a, God, that's such an awful, those kind of things can't just sit there like we're all fine with it. - Yeah. - And not that they do, because obviously it like, it's very heartening to hear that they put together a task force with 40 cops on it. That's amazing. And so last time, we've said something like that. - Yeah. - It's like usually the task force has five people who are working overtime to try to solve something. - Yeah, there's some number two of like, the amount of unpaid overtime hours that these police officers put into this. I mean, there's all these numbers about it, but it's really horrifying. And to be, I feel like to be from that, a kid from that period and the boogeyman is still fucking out there. It could be anyone and it's just so scary. And the poor Chan family who have no peace of mind over this, it's just awful. - Yeah, it is. - So that's finally, Mr. Cruel. - Well, that was great. Thank you. - I think we really enlightened a lot of people on what's bad and how bad things should be dealt with. - That's what I feel good about. - You should be dealt with by, can't. - Why? (laughing) - Cheers, here's the commercial for Can to Wine. - Excuse me. - Sam, can you cut out every time I hawk up flim like a fucking Greek fisherman? - God damn it. - I see the Twitter. Excuse me, and Greek fisherman are actually-- - Excuse me, and I, Dad's Greek. And I'm brokenhearted that you would say. - I, should I pee first? - Also, actually, I think I just stole that from Paul Tompkins. He used to call himself a Greek fisherman. - So we're gonna footnote credit every fucking aspect of this show tonight. And I think we should. - I agree. - I'm shouting out to Paul Tompkins that that's the Greek fisherman line as his. - We should call this a footnoteing the Greek fisherman, this episode, starring Paul Tompkins, the Greek fisherman, is a Greek fisherman. You already hear first kids. That's what this episode is called. - But we'll do it just all initials. (laughing) - P, F, T, E. - You have A, G, F. - All right, do you want to, I want to wait, but then I don't want to stop you in the middle of it. - Wait, do you want to go to the bathroom? - No, no, no. - Okay, I'll just power through this. - No, no, no, no, no, take your time. I'm a diaper on. - This, you're just like that astronaut that loved that other astronaut. We never talk about that story. - No. - Wait, we should actually do that one. I just remembered it is an attempted murder. - Excuse me, I'm making notes. (laughing) - Sorry, I'm gonna pee while you're making notes. - Okay. (laughing) (tranquil music) - Okay, and we're back. Are there any updates for this story? - A couple, in 2025, associate professor David Wells, who was a forensic physician with Victoria Police during the time of Mr. Kruel's attacks, said that he had personally collected genetic evidence that could be the key to unmasking Mr. Kruel's identity. I mean, Mr. Kruel has to know his time is almost up, right? If he's still alive, he's gotta be sweating. - Hope so. - Yeah, but there's been no reported follow-up on this evidence since then. - Okay. - And then on the 25th anniversary of Carmen Chan's abduction and murder, the police increased the reward for information from $100,000 to $1 million. - So sad. - I know, I just hate this story. - Yeah. - All right, let's get into Karen's story, covering the murder of Gurley Chiu Hossingcoft. (dramatic music) - There was no anything inside those eyes. They turned black. It scared the hell out of me. (dramatic music) - Evil wake up, and the woman saw the murder take place by Krivette and the pippo. - Anthony de Pippo showed no signs of remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. - I said I'm not guilty, I'll take it to the grave. - Listen to the devil's quarry and the bone valley feed on the IHR radio have, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - You broke me. You do not deserve happiness. - I'm Andrea Gunning, on this season of betrayal, Carl thought he was living a normal drama-free life until the messages started. - Someone's not gonna make it out of this alive. - Every piece of evidence pointed to the wrong guy. - He was not going to stop unless we stopped him. - Listen to betrayal season six on the IHR radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Why are we all so obsessed with romance? On the Radio 831 podcast, join us, Sanjana Basker, and Tyler McCall, as we unpack all the trending tropes, fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests. Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about desire, fantasy, identity, and how we love now. - Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHR radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - You just made something while you're in the bathroom. - Yeah, you don't do that. - You don't, you know, it's my favorite thing in the world. - That's great. - This, okay, so this one, I've been waiting, I've been thinking about this one for a long time because when I think of us and murderinos and people who love true crime and people who pay attention to true crime all the time and just ingest it like when you go to your, for me it was like go to your hotel room after doing a terrible stand-up gig and fucking Peoria, Illinois. And you turn on TV and you have your choice of all this shit and you're gonna go to, you know, American Justice. - I'm from the American Justice. - Forensic Files, all that. - Yeah. - The stomach, gonna get ready for bed. Well that's on the background 'cause it's fucking soothing and comforting and it's like your friend. - Yes, and it also feels like I think there's that, you're watching people take care of a problem. I think it helped me. Whereas like I just did stand up, I failed miserably. People don't like what I have to say. Now I'm here and I'm getting a perspective. - Yeah. - Because actually I'm fine and my life is good. - Love it. - Whatever. This story and this crime is one of the ones that you've seen on all of them. - Yeah. - Because it's not so crazy and it is the murder of Gurley Chiu Haasenkoft. So let me know when you remember what I'm talking about. - Okay. - This was suggested to me by my online friends Zoe Klar, who loves the show. And I know her from Twitter. We hung out at a wedding once. She's a super cool girl. And she was like don't forget, don't forget the classic. And I was just like, you're right, it is such a, it's just one of the ones I think of this murderer's face when I think of. - Do you ever think like, I can't do that one. Everyone knows that one. But then you're like, no, this one's great and I should do it. - Yeah. - Well, you know, I think I changed my mind about that because we've met people in VIP lines who've said, why haven't you done it at B or C? And if we ever give that answer of like, we just felt like people have heard it too much. They say, but we want to hear you do it. Which I read as, we want to hear you fuck it up. And it's like, yeah, I can fuck that up. - I can't fuck up for real good. - So thanks Zoe for suggesting it. And of course, there's an American justice on it. If you know or somebody knows, I want, I need American justice. There's so many seasons of it. But I couldn't find it on like normal YouTube, normal internet channels. - Yeah. - I couldn't find it. It's on Netflix, it's not on anything. - Oh. - I guess I'll just go home and look it up on Amazon. But I would by 20 seasons of American justice. - Absolutely. - That show is the shit. And then we, as we know Bill Curtis. - Bill Curtis is just. - Whether he's wearing a blazer or a brown leather jacket, it doesn't matter. - I love him. - He's the, he's the original. I mean. - Night talker? Sorry. Okay. - What if he laughs? - So the one show that I could find this on was on like, what's that daily motion video channel? It was like super obscure. And it was a show called Crime Stories, which is a great show. - Okay. - I was trying to figure out if it's like Canadian or something because I don't think I've ever heard of Crime Stories. - No. - And the narrator on Crime Stories is a man named Bill Courage. - So like, three chairs from Bill Courage holding down the Ford on Crime Stories. All of it, all of that sounds like stuff you would write in a TV show to represent a true crime show. - Anyway. - Oh, I got it. - Yeah. - Like a fake one. - Yes. - Let's just call him Bill Courage. - It's, you know, the host Bill Courage. - Whatever. - Okay. - Bring it to me. - So this takes place September 9th, 1999. - Okay, here we are. - Here we go. 100 miles south of Albuquerque, New Mexico. - There we are. - It's an abandoned stretch of highway 'cause you know all those weird crazy roads outside of the city. - Oh, I watch Breaking Bad. - Yeah, you know. - That lot of shit happens there. - It's the kind of road. And I don't know if this is accurate to the reals place or if this is just what it all looks like. But it's that thing where it's the shot, the B-roll shot was one long highway. And then it's shimmery hot down like in the three quarters area. And there's just like a mesa in the distance. - Fuck that shit. - The most I know of that is driving home from Vegas. And it's fucking sucks. - Yes. - And it's bleak and you can hide a body out there. - Absolutely. - Okay. - So there's a guy. He's a road worker. And he's been like fixing this highway or whatever. When he finds a pile of bloody clothes that look like a young girl's clothes. And so he calls the cops. They come and they start looking around. Nearby the clothes, there's suspicious looking duct tape because it's suspicious as a fucking duct tape in your bloody clothes isn't suspicious looking. - They're like, look, we can explain all this away. Clearly, clearly you're driving out of here. The heat got to, I think your finger. - I think the duct tape is suspicious. - Yeah, duct tape on its own, laying on the side of the road scares the living shit on me. - Absolutely. - This duct tape was in the shape of like a figure eight. So it was duct tape that looked like - Super suspicious. - Put together handcuffs. - Oh no. - So that poor road worker who I hope to God he wasn't by himself out there. Cause then that's even, then an eagle screams in the distance and you're like, this is the scariest thing in all time. But he grabs all that shit or he calls the cops. They come and they find another piece of duct tape nearby that has long black hairs on it. - Oh no. - So they start looking into what this could mean. And the police in the beginning in this crime story show, we're talking about how they thought it was children's clothing. So they were freaking out. And like it looked really bad. They start looking up missing persons reports, recent missing persons reports to see if anything compares. And it turned out that there was a missing or a person's report filed for a woman named Gurley Chiu Hassankoff. Hassankoffed with a tee at the end. So she was a Malaysian bank teller, 35 years old, very well liked, very responsible. Big, you know, had a, you know, a lot of friends at the bank. And when she didn't show up for work, they immediately knew something was wrong. - Right. - Cause she was super responsible. But also because she had recently filed for divorce and she had told everyone at the bank, my husband has been threatening my life. And like she basically told them she was really scared. And that her husband wanted to kill her. So the second she doesn't show up, they immediately call the cops. They immediately take all the action they need to. I also think this is just my opinion, but it seems like because she was, she was from Malaysia. So she didn't have, and she had a lot of family here. So I think her friends at the bank were like, if we don't do it, who we'll do it for her. Which God bless them. Thank God. And I have to say, I really like the name Gurley. - That's cute. - It's just really cute. But then compared to the horrible things I'm about to talk about, it's awful. So just this is the all part of the true crime world. So they, the police go to Gurley, choose apartment and they find three damp stains on the carpeting. And they find blood stains on her couch. And the whole place smells like bleach. So they're like dang, dang, all red flags. And what they do, and they talk about it in this episode of crime and crime story, whatever it's called, crime stopper story. Crime stories. - Crime stories. - Crime stories. - No, two words that we know. - It's easy words. It's not hard to remember. And yet here we are. But they talk about how the best move that the cops made in this entire case was in that moment, instead of cutting out a swath of the carpet, where they were worried about, they pulled the entire carpet out and took it to the lab. - They never did that. - They took an apartment's width and length of carpet and they were just like, all of it goes. Which is so cool. Because then they have everything. So this was Gurley, choose new apartment after leaving her husband who when she said she was leaving him went crazy on her, told her that he could make her disappear. And when she finally actually got that apartment, left their apartment, was when she found him loosening the tires on her car. - Oh no. - She finds him doing that, runs to the neighbor's house, and then goes and is in hiding essentially. So she gets a new apartment, the cops know that she would have never let him into that apartment. And so they know that when they're looking for trace evidence on that carpeting, that that's going to be a key thing. Which is like, all of that is just like cop stuff. - Love it. - So one of the main reasons that she followed for divorce, they got married in 1995. - Okay. - Three. - Three of you. - I mean, 1993. - That's what I meant. - 1995, three. They met in the early 90s at SeaWorld. - How? - Cute. - How? - No, but not cute. - I mean, also it's bad for Orcas, but how do you meet someone at SeaWorld? They get married in 1993 because her husband, a man, named, and I'm not kidding, Dies N. Hossencoft. - Jesus. - He is, He tells her that he's a geneticist and a doctor, and that he helps people who have cancer. He has a very advanced, like, what do you call it, an advanced serum that can cure cancer, and that he can't get it, like, he had this whole story about it. And he actually, I don't know if he told her, but later on, he told people that, because he, of course, he was a con man, he was not any of the things that I've said. He told people he cured his own cancer, and that's how he knew that the serum worked. And that's how he sold it to people who were dying of cancer, who he built for thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars. So he's an insane person, but he is like a con man extraordinaire. The cops at one point in this special talk about how he, actually at one point, joined up with a second con man, and con that con man out of thousands of dollars. He's fucking kidding me. Yeah, so he's like a diabolical lunatic. And anyone who's seen this, because this is an old and very famous case, he really tries to play the part of the, of the, of the evil, when he's finally in court, he's really kind of trying to do a Richard Burmara's Charles Manson, like, I'm the evil genius behind all this stuff. Why? Because he just needs a recognition? So he went to college, and he studied, like, science in college, but he didn't get into med school. And that's when it turned. So he basically, it turned into this weird con man fantasy life as if, if I had gone to med school, this is what I would have done and these are the things I'm doing. So I'm going to get some cards printed up and tell everybody that I'm a geneticist, right? And that I have, he not only told people he had the cure for cancer, but he also made a lot of money and met a lot of women telling them that he had this basically, like, a fountain of youth serum. And in this special, one of the best parts, one of his ex-girlfriends, who he was, by the way, in, he was engaged to one, he was engaged to a couple, but he was seeing three other women while he was married to girly chew. And that's what she found out that he was basically all over the map with these women. And she was just like, I'm out of here. Like, go fuck yourself. And then he went crazy because he was like, oh, I thought, because you're from Malaysia, I thought you were going to be subservient and submissive and not fight me and just take care of business. And she was like, go fuck yourself. That's not a quote. So the girlfriend who dies in Haas and coughed, oh, by the way, his real name is Armando Chavez. A lot of names happening. He made up the name Dyson Haas and cough because he believed that Germans and Japanese are the master races, which is a very new approach to suit to supremacies. So he made up a name that was in Amalgam of both. I bet you, he owned like Nazi memorabilia or something like so obnoxious or something like that. Yeah, probably. Yeah, but he's Armando Chavez. Like, he has no business being in the world of who's the master race. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You were good with bilking cancer patients. No, I thought it worked. Oh, I see. But now I don't think it works. Yeah. Here's why else you won't think it works. Okay. And this is according to Julie McGuire, who is in the special, and she is, she is, she is has a story to tell, but she, it made it like on the outside, it was like, I have this youth firm. And if you, if you do this, you're, you know, it's going to make you, it's going to, she said it's, he said it stopped cell growth, like entirely, which I don't think would be good for you. That's like that. Then your cells are dead. Yeah. I think that means you die. Yeah. But he eventually let her in on his secret, which was that the drug he was giving her was created by aliens to stop cell growth so that they could travel from planet to planet and not have it impact them. And, um, and can you imagine if you're like her and you're like, here I am, I'm on board with this second, this anti-aging thing, got it. And then sell them this person's like, well, let me let you in on the secret. Yeah. And it's like aliens. And you're like, Oh, shit. Yeah. It's almost like that's when you make that decision. And I'm, am I, am I just going to go all in on this and like push all my chips into the middle table? Right. Because at this point, I can't be like, I can't then I look fucking stupid. If I'm like, guess what? I got out of this thing because he ended up being crazy and all your friends like we knew he was crazy. Yeah. You have to double down on it. But you have to remember this. You never have to double down. You can always get out of it because think of any friend you have. They've always had a worse boyfriend than the boyfriend you're talking about. Yeah. And also who gives a fuck with anybody? Yeah. You got to get out of that. You can. You're allowed fuck ups in your life. And it's okay. But Julie McGuire's age where she was like, and she didn't actually, when she's like talking about this in this special, she clearly knew he was insane because, you know, she, I don't think she thought the way she's saying it anyway, maybe she did, but she still went along with it. Well, she wanted them beauty treatments, girl, but there is no magic here except for Botox. I have to keep telling you why must I keep telling everyone why must I preach the word. But also they found out that his, his magic treatment was vitamin B12 and he was, he was making women pay thousands and thousands of dollars for it. So he also fathered a son with a, a woman in Canada in 1996. These are all the things girly she was finding out. And he was, oh yeah, engaged to three different women while he was married to her. She is a slave. Including what? No, no, no. He's short and he looks like a character actor. Did he pretend to be, it's just, what were they after? I think he has not that, that was a horrible thing to say. What, what was the attraction? I think he has that, that sparkly glow of a psychotic person. I mean, honestly, they're fascinating. Like this guy is the kind of guy he was super smart. He's so in quote that he has that psychotic, he has that sparkly glow of a psychotic person is my favorite. When you meet a truly crazy person, it's a breath of fresh air. They're like, I'm not crazy in the way that I need to be hospitalized or medical help, but I'm a diabolical. And I believe my own bullshit. Yes. And I believe that I can trick you. There's an energy to that. And also when con men are trying to con you, you get focused attention, which lots of people want and don't get. So suddenly you have, even if it, no matter what the face looks like or the height or the weight or whatever, you have a person that's kind of like dialed in to your face. Yeah. I think you hung the moon. And suddenly you're like, maybe I did. I don't know. Give me some of that. I wondered if I hung the moon. Because I felt special. I've always felt special. And I always feel like I had this gift. So you've got to be careful. Okay. If people are like, you're really special. Yeah. That's who I can. That's the biggest red flag of all because you're fucking not. And neither am I. None of us are. Amen. And a. A. That's what you're learning. A. A. So that's when girl is like, Oh, you're, you're engaged to three other women. I've got to go. Peace. Okay. So when the police go to interview Dyson, and I might be pronouncing that slightly wrong, his house is not real. So it's okay. It's his idea of what a Japanese name is, which is like, it sounds like a bad VCR that you would have bought in 1980s. I was thinking the exact electronic and electronic high five, that's the, you high five, my. Um, they go to Dyson's house, his house is empty. Um, they find out he moved out the day before she, uh, girly, she went missing. Um, and they, so they put out an APB for his, now, uh, points bulletin. I love that. Right. Mm-hmm. For his car, he's a fake doctor, fake, though, also a con man, also, uh, a, a, a, a polygamist or whatever you call that, a big amassed. If you married tons of people, what kind of, what kind of car color and make do you think he drove? Oh god. A fucking red trans amp. It was a white easy zoo. I, there was a way to, it was too obscure, but I just thought it'd be fun to play a party. Okay. Going that way, I would have guessed like Subaru or something. For some reason, when they said in the special, they put out the output points bulletin for his white zoo, I laughed out loud in my TV room, a TV room separate than the dining and like. Someone in a zoo, zoo looks like. Well, I was thinking a zoo, zoo trooper, which looks like a, like, uh, the poor man's Jeep. It's just a family car. It's, no, it's kind of like a, well, the one I'm thinking of is almost like, I'm going to college and my dad wanted to give me this. Okay. Okay. We don't know what that's like. Oh, I have us. Okay. So here's, when they're searching his place, they find out that he belonged to a UFO Believer's Club. Okay. And so they have to go down to the UFO Believer's Club and start interviewing some people. That's got to be a fun day. This is, this is the thing where I want this special, like if we start really making the kind of true crime specials that everybody wants, yeah, it's, you get all those cops together and you're like, so tell us about the UFO Believer's Club. Tell us about each and every in detail. Yes. About them. Because you know, there are some people who were, who were wonderful and hilarious and brilliant. And then you know there's some people who are like the people who are out to me and who want to keep like I - I know, I can give you information, those fucking nosy Nellies. - And then there were some people who were like, join me on Saturn. So they go talk to the people and one of the first people they meet is a woman named Linda Henning, who they later find out he was engaged to. - Of course he was. - So Linda Henning, they don't think much of her at first. Linda Henning and we all probably know this, but if you haven't seen any specials. - I don't know this one. - Oh, you don't? I don't know this. - Oh, yay. - Tell me everything. - Because you will love Linda Henning. I highly recommend that you go back. There's video of her talking. She is one of those people. - I can't go back, that's, you can't find it. - There's individual videos of her being interviewed by the news because she got arrested. - Okay. - And she is, I won't diagnose her. - Do it. If it was my mom, my mom would be like, she's gone organic. I think she might be, she might be schizophrenic. But she has a lot of those things where she looks like the woman who's the star, the sewardess or the air hostess in the airplane named Julie something with a long hair. She's like a '70s, '80s actress. She looks almost exactly like that woman. She's like actress beautiful, big hair, you know, like, and she had, of course, from Hollywood. She had been a model and then she was a fashion designer. Now she's in New Mexico with her fucking government, UFO conspiracies. And she is a serious believer. So they keep on pulling up these clips of her, holding up a drawing that she drew herself going, these are the lizard people that run our government. And she's completely serious and seems almost like a newscaster like convincing. - What is she is right? - She could be right. There's other people that think this is not just her, right? But she has an intensity and she's also twitchy. - Oh, no. - Yeah. So she's got a little bit of that, like, you can see her resetting herself. - Oh, God. - She's normalcy, that I was enjoying watching. (laughs) - You can't take someone seriously, is? - Yeah, she's sprouting about aliens and twitching at the same time. - Yeah. - There's two things, don't go hand in hand. - I have to say this, the twitching was subtle, but that was my, you know, when I, I'm collecting all the information, so I can do the one woman show about her. There will be subtle twitching in it. Also, she, so it was, her theory is like, lizard people run the government and also, Mason's are all lizard people. - Okay. - Which I'm interested in, like, tell me what you got. - I see it. - But all she did was in this thing, she had a trend, she had drawn a triangle on a piece of paper and she'd put a circle inside and she went, this is the Mason symbol. - Oh, my God. - And I was just like, no, it's not actually. It's a pyramid with an eye on her. She had a one who like, will describe on a dollar bill, like what's inside of all the thing, what every little thing means. And then when you folded this way, and then you see the little picture that comes out. - Yes. - This is down, I am down and ready for that. Get me a beer. Like, let's go. - This is how the lizard people are communicating for our money, right? Where it's like, well, talk to me about it. - Fold it up symbols on money. What? - Yeah, and then what? - And then what are you gonna do? Then fold it and show it to me. Okay, why don't we just talk? All right. So, UFO Believer's Club. I'm calling it that, I don't know what the actual name it is. - Oh, okay. - But I mean, it was people who got together because they were like, this is real. - Oh, I did it. - She had a, when she joined the UFO Believer's Club and then Dyson joined it as well, she was engaged to be married to a different person. She immediately broke up with him and they started this love affair with Dyson. They bonded over their passionate belief in the impending alien takeover of our planet. - And chicken wings. - And their love of chicken wings. - I wanna put that into the script. - And chicken wings. - Wait, you like chicken wings? - I love chicken wings. - I never met anyone that likes chicken wings. - Wait, Rancher Blue cheese. - Oh my God, it has to be blue cheese. - Yeah. - Marry me. - Okay. So, they go to interview Linda Henning. - Okay. - And because everyone in the UFO Believer's Group is like, oh, Dyson's really good friends with Linda Henning and this other guy, Bill, they'll know. Go talk to them. - Well, Linda Henning at her house it seems totally normal, calm, kind of low key, but very quickly and start beginning to talk to these investigators, she gives Dyson an alibi for the ninth of early childhood missing. And basically, I tried to tell them she was with him all night, except for one hour. And they're like, okay, well, that's, it's a bit advanced for this conversation. So, later on, they go to bring her in for questioning and she gives, when she goes over questioning, she gives some hair sample, a DNA sample. But then when they ask about Dyson, she kind of acts like she doesn't know him that well. She's mispronouncing his name, calling him D or Doc instead of his name 'cause she says she doesn't ought to pronounce it, which I relate to. But she claims, she has no idea where he is and that she's never met girly, she doesn't know where she is, doesn't know anything about her. But then when they talk to Linda's co-workers, they find out that she's told them her and Dyson are about to get married. So, when the police go back around to talk to Linda and ask her some follow-up questions at her home, she's not there. And they're calling her saying, go ahead and give us a call, she's avoiding them. So then they start surveilling her because they're like, what's going on? She's checked into a hotel and then she moves hotels and then checks into another hotel. And she's basically like trying not to be found or seen. But what I love about that is that it makes it sound like, and the cops were following her as she did it. - They see you. - Yes. You just went from a Dyson to a motel sex. This is not good criminal behavior. - Okay, so they search her car. Oh, sorry, when they go into her, they get a search warrant, they go into her house. Her house is filled with UFO conspiracy art that she has made herself. - Oh, I bet it's gorgeous. - You know what it reminds me of? You know when you're in high school chemistry class and you start doodling and you're like, wait, I'm good at trying. - I did, yes. - That's what it all looks like. It's like kind of like, it looks like women in cat suits, lizards with half human faces, but it's all like in a blue ballpoint pen. - And she thinks it's important too. Like it's someone's communicating with her through it. - She very much believes that this is real and it is, you can tell that it is a big problem for her. Like it's a concern and it's not fucking around. - It's overwhelming. - Yeah, she believes that our planet's being taken over by aliens, she's one of the only people that knows. It's classic, it's a paranoia, but I won't label it. But I like to theorize about people's mental status. - That's fun. - I just said status, like I was British. I don't know why, what's happening. But yeah, her house is filled with this art. And also she's got a lot of colored art sand in her garage, which is really odd. They showed a picture of her garage. And it's like, you know that thing where you're like, you know what I'm gonna get into? - Yeah. - I'm gonna get into art sand. I'm gonna fill bottles with different colored sand. - I'm gonna sell it at the flea market. - Yeah. - So, but it's like a bunch of crates full of it. So she didn't just get one kit. - No. - She was like into it. - If you're really gonna get into it, you have to spend $500, yeah. - That you have to go to Joanne Faberks all day. - Yeah. - Yeah, you have to make a problem. - So, I did that once with Crossworth Needle Point. - Did you really? - I mean, I didn't spend that much money on it. But I was like, coming to get into this. - I have to. - No, I don't. I want, I'd same with me and paint my numbers. - Oh, that's fun. - I'm going back. - Do it. - I think paint my number, here's my only problem. If I'm gonna sit at home and do nothing, I'm gonna do that A watching TV and B laying down. I'm not gonna do a project. - Why? - Because I love to lay down. That's my project. - What's a project you could do while you lay down? Sleep, dream, catch up on sleep. - Have some dreams? - Okay. So they go to her house, they find all this crazy fucking shit that makes them go. She's not your average member of the UFO believers club. She's taken the UFO believers club and she's in like a Harrison Ford movie level crisis with the UFO believers, where it's like impending to. - Yeah. - Very, very sad and awful. - Yeah. - Sorry, I laughed. - No, that's right. It's also the art is terrible. So it's just, I'm sorry, I laughed. There's a lot of element. Wishing her well. - Okay, go on. - No, you don't have to. She did bad things. - Oh, good, good, good. Then they start her car. They find out it's just been watched and that there's a receipt for having her tires balanced and the cops immediately think the area and that highway outside of Albuquerque where they found girly shoes bloody clothes was all crazy bumpy roads. Why road workers were out there and if she drove out there, she would have to get her tires ready to launch. - Yeah. - So they basically, the more they look into stuff, they find out that when they look at Linda Henning's bank records, Linda Henning, who had claimed to have not know girly shoe and never met her and know nothing about her, had actually switched banks and had started going to girly shoes branch of her bank and girly had been her teller at that bank several times. so she was like spying on her. - She was up in her business big time and absolutely knew who she was. - Uh oh. - So. - Don't lie to the cops, ding, dong. (laughing) - You're looking lizard, you're the lizard person. I mean, just in general, like, especially when you're gonna be that obvious about it. - If you were your bank teller, don't fucking lie to the cops about it. - Well, also, I guess it's different now because there are cameras everywhere now and stuff, but it's just that's, those, when you see those people who, the people who make up crimes to do, and thinking they're going to get away with it, because they think they're smarter than cops, where it's like, you're so not that. - You're like one of the most stupid people we know, but you think you're smarter than not. Like, the people who think they're smarter than the cops and who get away with shit are the most idiotic people. - Yes. - Also, that makes, sorry, quick sidebar. My friend Bridger, one of her and I, went and saw a movie called American Animals. Did you see the imposter, that documentary? - It's the same director. It's really fucking good. And it's a true story. - About which one? - Of these guys that tried to steal these really rare valuable Audubon books from a college, and they were like college age themselves. - Oh, nerds. - It's a really good movie you have to go see it. Everyone has to go see it, okay? - Okay. - Okay, back to this piece of paper. So then, and I'm not sure exactly where this happened in the timeline, but I'm throwing it in here. Our friend, Julie McGuire, who was getting the beauty treatments and was told that she was gonna live forever. One of his girlfriends called the police because, and told them that when she, when girly she was missing, Dyson told her he was livid about, that he was going to have to pay girly $60,000 in their divorce settlement. And he was like, out of his mind, livid about it. And he said-- - Notive. - What? Notive. - Yes, I thought you said noted. It was like, all right, you're listening good. He actually said to Julie that girly would never see a dime of that money that she was supposed to be getting 'cause she was gonna disappear. - No, don't do that. - And then Julie said to him, what are you talking about people? Like, you can't make people disappear. The cops find them. Like that. - Yeah. - And he said to her, not if they're dissected. - Shut up, dude. - Which is also, but also that's such a weird, anyway. - And it's also not. Then she's like, no, yeah, also if they're dissected. - Right, and just in general. It's, you're not gonna get away with it. But anyway, we love Julie McGuire because she's like, guess what, that guy was my boyfriend, but this is bad, bad job. - Totally good for her. - So then the lab comes back with some results on that full apartment carpet that they pulled out of girly's apartment. They had small amounts of blood evidence that they had found. And this was the reason they were like, that they would have just cut out this strip that was just those three blood stains 'cause that blood was girly shoes. But when they pull the whole carpet, they find blood stains and the blood belongs to Linda Henning. - What? - Yes. And they weren't expecting it either. So they're just like holy shit. So they, now she's indicted for murder. - Oh my God. Dyson Haasencoft is nowhere to be found. They had no one knows where he is. Then they police get a tip from one of his neighbors saying she had just gotten a call where he threatened her and then hung up. And so the cops are like dial star 69. And so she does. - No. - And yes. And it turns out he's in South Carolina. - What? - So the cops go arrest him. Yes. So the, when I was in high school, when whatever it was, a TT or whoever did it, came out with that package where you could get call waiting, call forwarding and star 69. It changed lives. - Yes. - It changed everything. - It was a really big deal. - You couldn't print call anymore. - Yes. Do you want to hear a celebrity secret? - Yes. - When I very first moved to town in 1994 or five, I had a big crush on Jack Black, who was in our social circle. - Yeah. - And one time I called, somebody gave me his phone number, I don't know why, and I called it and then when he answered, I hung up. - And he did not. - And he fucking starts with 99. - No, he did it. - And I said. - Did you know that he was doing that or did you just answer the phone like it was normal? - I answered the phone. 'Cause I think I was expecting a call from somewhere else. - Okay. - And he was like, he had started 69. So you just picked it up. - I picked it up. - And then he goes, did you just call me? And I went, it was a mistake. And then I acted mad and was like, yeah, it was a mistake. And then I just hung up. - That's the perfect, when you act mad, like you're only with someone else. - Yeah. - And what do you do? - I don't know what you do. - I waited, we weren't that, we didn't know him that well at the time. So I just like held my breath and waited it out and then never, never heard. - And then the next time ever since then, you've been weird. He's like, she's always weird around me. I don't know what I did to piss her off. - No, no, no, I think then we got to know each other after that. And he was around and I, it was that kind of thing. I was like, maybe I did call your house and hang up. Maybe that's how I expressed my intense love, Jack Black. Who talk about, I don't think he's psychotic. But the first time I met him, it was like, the whole rest of the room went away. - Wow. - He's so dynamic. Well, he's also so talented. It was like, they had just done Tenacious D, you know, three songs. Everyone's like, what, who are these people? And then just to talk to him and person, he's just got charisma coming out. - Where? - Of his telephone. - It's private. (laughing) - This has been Jack Black corner. I don't know why I'm talking about this. I'm trying to tell a story. Okay, so they go to, they go bring him out of South Carolina. His perfect hiding place, star 69 him out. Jack Black plays one of the cops that pulls him out of South Carolina. He had only been on the lamp for three weeks, already living with a woman in, well, he was in South Carolina. - What the fuck? - This is what I'm talking about. You got it. It's like, everyone, we all need group therapy to like get ourselves out, that we don't need guys like this. - Yeah, no, or just be a guy like that. Like what do you do to get to be the person that can be on the lamp? First of all, you've all this stuff to do of like avoiding the police. - Yeah. - And then you kick up a relationship with some stranger. But there's time for a little, you make time. I think that's what, that's the, (laughing) just, just, and then brought that can of wine right up to relapse. (laughing) - Tell me about it. - Girl, tell me about being on the lamp and in relationships. All right, sorry. So they find, when he's arrested, he has Gurley choose address book and a piece of her jewelry, two things that she had not left at her house when she left him, two things that she had on her person. So they were like, this is, you know, evidence. - Yeah. - They also, in the place where he was staying in South Carolina, they found guns and they found a steam cleaner with human blood in it. - Ew. - Trace evidence of human blood. - He's stupid idiot. - So they bring him back to New Mexico. He's charged with making interstate threats because that's the only concrete evidence that they have. They don't, nothing, nothing ties to the murder. - Okay. - To hold him. - But they have, yeah, they can hold him for getting star 69. (laughing) Calling his neighbor and being like, "Hey, don't tell anyone you want me to hang up." - Yeah, I'm not. - All right. So they start looking around the area, going back to search because they're, basically now they need the body, Gurley choose body. They have to find what has happened to her so that they can tie him in because they're like, this guy's, they like him for it. That's cops like to think he's good for it. But they have no evidence. So when they go out to that desolate highway outside of the fucking Albuquerque, the area on the sides of the highway is dotted with mines, abandoned mineshafts. And they said there's so many out there and some of them are so deep that you throw a rock down and you never hear anything. So like, oh, what are at the bottom of those? - Right, so the police tried to search some of them near where the clothes were found. But after a while they're just like, well, we didn't find anything and you can't, they're not even mapped. There are so many mines out there. Which I just said, that idea of that type of police where it's like, that's nauseatingly. - Yeah. - Just endless searching. - Kind of bad. - Just the thought that you could throw something down on to those and it'll never be seen again is like, yeah. It makes me feel empty. - Yeah, it's very bad. Although if you had say, say you wrote out a story about an embarrassing thing you did to Jack Black, you could ball that up and throw it down into mine and not say it on a podcast. - But what's the fun in that? I went slept, can I, I want me to, - Yes. - Okay, your eyes just lit up. - One time. - You can't hear my James back. - I'll give you one. I'll give you a good one. - My friend and I called each other. We were on the phone with each other. I just dumped a dude. I was like 19, I just like broken it with a guy and we were on the phone and I was like, let's listen to his voicemail, like his outgoing voicemail was our song. I was like, look, he changed his song. Let's call it and you can listen. So we called and we listened to the voicemail and then we were like, oh my god, I can't believe it, like blah, blah, blah. I just feel bad and like, I just don't like, I wasn't trying. and like just like talking, talking shit. And then it was like, your message has been sent. - No. - I forgot to hang up after we listened to his fucking outgoing voice mail. (laughing) How awful is that? - Wait, can I just ask you to answer all the questions? Were you on drugs? - No, I was not on drugs. - Just stupid. - Just 19. - I people don't appreciate how these days no one uses the phone ever. - Well, it's the thing of texting the wrong person. - Yes. - It's texting the person something on social media, saving their thing from three months ago. - Yeah. - Embarrassing thing. But God, there was so much bad behavior around answering machines in my past. Also, one time I was super stone in my apartment and I was listening to my messages. And my sister left me such a long message that halfway through I forgot it was a message and I started fighting with her. And I got really mad. I was like, stop talking over me. What are you doing? And I was like, there's the same thing and then I was like, all right, talk to you later. - Oh my God. - Oh my God. Send us your embarrassing stories to my favorite murderer Gmail. - What horrible thing have you done on an answering machine? - Yeah. - Around phones. - Around. - Yeah, texting around all of them. - And you can make them modern, but the, I guess texting ones are good. - Yeah, modern is fine. And yeah, go ahead. - Okay, my favorite murderer Gmail. -.com. -.com. - Okay, go ahead. - So, and then guess what happened? - Tell me. - I'm just suspense. - I'm just trying to re, okay. - Okay, okay, so they get more evidence back. So it's this trace evidence that they're getting off of this humongous piece of carpet. And what they find is single hair from Dyson on that carpet, a single hair. But they're like, okay, this is enough. So we know he was there. It's not gonna hold up on court. But now we know we've got a time to it. But they also find colored sand, glitter, - Oh my God. - And dyed animal hair and gray human hair. So they're like other people were in that apartment. - Yeah. So it wasn't just girly chew, it wasn't just Dyson. It wasn't even just Linda. - It was a, and then they find lizard skin. And then they find the entire Bush family photo album. That's a big theory that the Bush family are lizard people. - Oh. - Pass it on, please. Okay, so then they find a picture that Linda has drawn in Linda's house. They find a bunch of love letters between Linda and Dyson. But then they also find a drawing of a warrior queen dressed for battle against aliens. - I guess that's her. - Yeah, in a letter to Dyson. - And in the picture, she's wearing like, it's one of the cat, she looks like cat woman, essentially, but with like slightly different decorations. - Okay. - And she's holding a sword. In the ceiling of Linda Henning's garage at her house, they find a ninja sword with blood on it. And it's not enough blood, they couldn't pull DNA, but they could tell it had been cleaned and that there was trace amounts of blood. Also, the investigators were like, a samurai sword is a warrior sword for like war battle. A ninja sword is for assassin. So it's smaller, thinner blade. I don't know much about it, so I'm not gonna say anything. - That sounds right. - Get the sword people mad at me, but then they go, okay, so this is here. Let's re-look at the shirt that we found that belonged to girly chew that had blood on it and start comparison. - Comparing, comparison, no, comparison. - Comparisize it. Did she wipe the blade off with the shirt? - That the stab wounds were from that sword, that is what they were testing to try to see. And as they do that, and they're re-examining girly chew's shirt that they had found, the lab finds dizzan, haus and coves blood, an saliva on one shoulder of the shirt. So now they have evidence that he was there when girly chew was martyred. - Oh my god, per girly. - And the other person that is there, 'cause they go back to the UFO group, and we interview them, yep. And they find out from them that there was a third person in dizzan and Linda's little group, and it's a guy named Bill Miller. He was a member of the UFO group. He was an older man. He was a survivalist and an outdoorsman. And the three of them, Linda Bill and dizzan, used to drive to the UFO believers meetings together, and they also did stuff on the weekends, and they showed this picture. - I bet they were the most boring people to hang out with. - Well, I bet the conversation was hard to follow. They seemed like the kind of people you were just like, "Guys, we were just talking about movies, and now we're back into this alien takeover ship." - Or even like, "I was following your alien takeover ship." - But this is like, what were your princesses? This is crazy. - How about we do one weird topic per car ride? - You can't just pick a bunch of 'em. - Yeah, don't just list up. Linda, Linda, hold on. - Linda, you should be at the topic. - You should be you. - You keep switching topics. There's a picture of the three of them at like, it looks like they're at the river together. - Oh my God. - And they look so fucking normal. And it's another wave that I got of like, I think this is personally for me the appeal of true crime. These are the people that live next door to you. These are the people that are standing at the river, taking a fucking picture. And meanwhile, they have kidnapped, murdered, and hit in the body of one of their women. - Oh my God. - It's just so goddamn sinister, the banality of evil, look it up. - Okay. - So, okay, so it turns out that Dyson had told Linda that he was a 7,000 year old space alien that had been on the planet since before these newer aliens showed up. And the newer aliens were the ones that are trying to take over, and he was actually here, put on the planet. - But he's the good guy. - He's the good alien that was here to keep it from happening. And he said the only way to keep these new aliens from taking over is to kill their queen. And do you know who the queen is? - The queen is his wife, girlie, kiddo. - He took advantage of her kind of crazy, right? - 100%, which is the classic con man thing. It's classic con man of what's your weakness? What's the thing that's got you all turned around? Oh me too. - I can't believe it. - I'm just like you, me too, we're a team. - Oh, that's so awful. - It's very sad and very crazy. So he's like, he's high level con man psychopath, or he doesn't kill girlie if she didn't think that she was like, she needed to do it. - Yeah. - To rid this planet of the alien taking over. - Oh my God. - Yes. - And she also, well, but there's more to it. Okay, so the trial starts, so they have enough to bring him to trial. And when he goes to make his plea, he surprises everybody and pleads guilty. And in this special, they talk about how New Mexico had just put someone to death. And they think that while he was being held, he was like, oh shit, that could happen to me. So he was just like, fine, you got me. But he would not tell them where girlie who his body was. - Oh. - He says that he and a man named Bill Miller, who is the third guy from the UFO believers club, they did it and that Linda Henning had nothing to do with him. He said that he didn't even, that Bill Miller wanted to kill a person, that he was excited to do it. He'd always wanted to hunt a human being. And that he didn't even have to pay him to help kill his wife. - Fuck. - Yes. Then Linda Henning's soulmate comes forward. - Oh. - And she says that Linda, when she just went up to Linda and was like, what did you do with that woman's body? And without words, Linda made a gesture, indicating that they'd eaten her. - This is the craziest you've started ever heard. - It's beyond. - How have I never watched this one? - It's also you have to watch it because you have to see this guy kind of in action. He's like when he's doing the purplock, he's laughing really loud. Like he's doing those things where he knows everything is a decision being made about what like the impact of this gonna be. - Sounds like it's gonna be a good cult leader. - Yes. I think 100%. I mean, he's thousands of dollars. If you have leukemia, you have to be pretty good. The comment has to be pretty good to convince you to spend like all the rest of your money on a cancer-curing, like, that's crazy. So she, mine's eating them. But she, I mean, that's just what that woman said. - Yeah, okay. - And it could have been, who knows what it meant. Dyson Haasenkov gets sentenced to life in prison. - Thank God. - But they, in getting him to agree to plea guilty, the death sentence got taken off the table. Linda goes to trial. Linda Henning denies all involvement in girly's murder. She says, quote, "And this is one of the videos that you can watch, and this is one of those ones where she keeps twitch resetting every third sentence." I mean, listen, I've never done anything to cause the death of a two-legged or four-legged creature. It's always been my belief from day one that the blood was planted. I wasn't there. - Nope. - And then she also says, "In every past life I've been murdered, so what am I up for now?" The death penalty. - Like, isn't that ironic, Elena Smoresa? - Oh honey, you're a fucking bad shit. - She's great. When she went to trial, they had the death penalty on the table for her. - No way. - Yeah, and then her friend testifies, and this woman's testimony is in this special, so I'm sure you can see it somewhere. She says that Linda told her that she, that Linda had been appointed the queen of the world, and that it was her responsibility to defend the world from other queens who were trying to take over, from they were coming from other planets to take over. - If your friends had that to you over, like, Mimosas. - I would just be like, you fucking not anyway. I'm going on a town for a while. - Do you wanna stay at my house? - With my four, my four-legged animals? - Or two-legged animals, whatever. - I'm almost positive that when I wouldn't do stuff, like say chores around the house, my mom would call me the queen of the world. - I might be rewriting that just 'cause it's so funny, but the idea that you would turn to your friend, be like, look, I got to tell you something. - I know, I know things have been weird lately, but I'm the queen of the world. Not America, the whole fucking planet. - Oh, that icy chill you'd get, and you're like, I need to turn my friend over to the hospital. - Yes. - How am I gonna do this? - Yes. - I'm gonna back away. - Hey, you know where they have a great fro-yo place? - In the hospital. - In the hospital. - In the hospital. Follow me. - They have the best frozen yogurt, but you have to commit yourself to a 48-hour hole. - Exactly. - But it'll be worth it. - Yeah. - I'm gonna crush up some fucking anti-psychotics into her bro-yo. - Here's the other thing too. If you think you're the queen of the world, and I mean in this way where you feel like you have to kill other people because you have to defend the world, don't take that all along by yourself. Commit yourself to a 48-hour cycle and figure out what's actually going on. Get some other voices in there. - Yeah. - Get some, do you think I'm the queen of the world? - No. - No. - Oh, sorry. You weren't asking me. - Oh, are we fighting? - No, we were doing. - Are we fighting now? (laughing) - I knew you didn't think I was the queen of the world. - I do think Elvis is an alien, but that's a, I'm not gonna kill anyone over it. - Do you think he's the king of the world? - Elvis is the king. - All right. Okay, let's focus, please. We gotta get through this. - I'm the one to put my paper all the way down, but we need to focus. Okay. - It's a four-hour episode. - It really is. So, then Dyson Haasencoft comes to testify at Linda Henning's trial. - Oh dear. - And it's the full show. He's grown out his nails, but he knows as the grossest thing a man can do. - He's smiling like a lunatic. He's just got that thing where it's like, it's very Charles, it's like poor Mans Charles Manson. - Yeah, it sounds like it. - And he's talking, he does a little speech about how he hopes that girly suffered more than anyone on the planet. Like he does this whole speech about her murder that's so horrible, but he's doing it with this weird smile. And you're just like, this is all dumb. It's corny, it's like over the top. But he still maintains that Linda Henning had nothing to do with the murder. And he said that he says that he planted Linda's blood in girly's apartment to throw off investigators. When investigators are like, yeah, that doesn't throw anybody off. It's evident. - We do us directly to you. - And also what they honestly think it was is they think he was setting Linda Henning up for this murder. They think he was trying to lay that out. And then it was like he got caught and it was out of his hands. Which is even sadder because when Linda Henning talks about Dyson, even after her arrest, she's clearly still in love with him. - Oh no. - Yeah, she thinks he's amazing. She thinks he's the greatest. - It's so nuts. She's convicted of first-degree murder and kidnapping, but she doesn't get the death penalty. She gets life in prison. And at the time, it was the most extensive forensic investigation in New Mexico history. - What did Foxy? How have we never heard of this? - It's so crazy. Bill Miller, the third party, he was no charges wherever brought into him. - No. - A grand jury found that there was not enough evidence to charge him. - Well, I don't like him. - I don't either. And he doesn't seem like a nice person. I don't like his profile. And this special, I saw it a couple of times. - No. - He looks like somebody that would yell at you at outside of Best Buy. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that is the horrible murder of Gurley Choo. - Fuck, dude. Thank you for that. - I mean, thank you and really thank crime stories for really letting me retell their story. Cause that's what happened. And thank you Zoe Clark for reminding me of this. I feel like I've seen at least three episodes on this. - That's not crazy. - Yeah. - Cause it's like fodder. It's like perfect. - Yeah. - You know, crime show fodder. - It's got everything. - And it makes me want to join a UFO believers' clubs. Like what's going on? - Let's do it. - Okay. Just to open up our social circle. - What do we accidentally join a cult? (laughing) - It'd be good for the podcast. - It would be. - People are like, "Get out!" Then they rescue us. - Oh, I mean, so I'm fine. - So nice of them. - Okay, we're back, Karen. Do you have any updates? - There's a couple. So in 2020, Dyson Haas and Coff asked a judge to vacate his life sentence. He claims his sentence was illegal that he was denied due process because of collusion that his attorneys failed, that their jobs and that he was forced into a plea deal. He believes his attorneys were working with the police department in Albuquerque to hide evidence that would have exonerated him. And then very recently, October, 2026, like that recently, Linda Henning was released from prison after a judge vacated her conviction. That judge ruled she was incompetent to stand trial back in 2002 and her lawyer failed to disclose that she had been diagnosed with schizophrenia and was experiencing delusions at the time that she was tried. So there's now going to be a new trial for her and I guess more updates coming. This case is basically opening back up. - How? - Who knew that we would do this for so long that we would have updates years and years later? It's pretty exciting. - Hold on. Let me put my hearing aids in. What did you just say? (both laughing) All right, let's get into our fucking arrays. (growling) - Why are we also obsessed with romance? - On the radio, 831 podcast, join us. - Sanjana Basker and Tyler McCall. - As we unpack all the trending tropes, fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests. - Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about desire, fantasy, identity, and how we love now. - Listen to the radio, 831 podcast on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Lisa, tell them about our new show. - We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Yuanio, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. - And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my food days, I've lived it all. - Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. - Listen on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I believe that whoever was in that room and did that was a murderer. - A new podcast series, Fault Line Haditha, tells the story of a shocking crime and a cover-up at the highest levels of the United States Marine Corps. - If you've got five players and you offer immunity to four, you better be right about the fifth, 'cause if you're not, then you've just given immunity to your color. - Listen to Fault Line Haditha on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - All right, fucking hooray. What's the thing that's been making you happy lately? - Well, Nico Case's new album is called Hell On. It just came out cool. - It's so fucking good. - Great. - But she's always perfect. I think she's one of the people that suffers from the fact that she, from when she first started going, when she was doing Nico Case and her boyfriends and her first couple projects. She's always been so 10 out of 10 stars perfect that it's almost like she doesn't get appreciated enough anymore. That's how I feel about it. - There's never this transcendent one, 'cause they're all like that. - It's every song she writes, you're like, "How did you think of that lyric?" And this is the best tune I've ever heard. Your voice makes me want to cry. It's just my favorite. - That's amazing. - Also, Courtney Barnett has a new album out. - I love her. - Call tell me how you really feel. And it is amazing and it's such a good album as well. One of her songs, the chorus of it is, men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them. - That's the, oh dear. - I'm not sure what the song is called, but it's such a good album. Yeah, it's really good. - Okay. - Yeah, okay. Mine is, so I'm trying to get my fucking brain wrapped around like money matters and like dealing with money and like what to do with money and like, where do you put it? If it's not under your mattress, like, you know? So there's podcasts about it, turns out. - Oh, that's good. - Yeah. And there's one that I found called, her money matters by Jen. That she just interviews money experts, but in a way, but it's for women and it makes it makes a lot of sense and every episode is a different topic. So you can find the topics that speak to you and yeah, so far it's what you're curious about. Yeah, so it's really good and that sounds great. Yeah, it's simple. It makes it really simple. You know, that's really smart, too, because it's like Oprah did that with Susie Arman, where it's like no women, you have to you have to keep your eye on it and you have to be business people. Yeah, it's important. And so the topics are like stuff about debt and being scared of money and how to have emotional, not emotional. It's everything. So if you're like, but I don't want to think about money, there's like an episode about that. So you have to do it. I see you're looking at me. I see you looking at me, George, I see you look. I think you're the queen of the world, and I think you're great with money. I think you know, I know problems. I mean, because here's the thing about money, I think women, there's storylines of like, with a women B shop and storylines of like, whatever, I'm upset. So I have to go shopping or all these things that like you get told that almost like it's like you're playing a part. Yeah, instead of like, no, go be a fucking business person. Well, there's also Jens and Sassaro who wrote, you are a badass. She also now is one about you are a badass at making money. Oh, good. It's, you know, it's directed to women, but it's for everyone. But it also is around those things of like, she talks about like, what does money mean to you? Like write the first five things down and it's like based on when you were a kid, all that shit. So like when I was a kid, we used to go and grocery shopping. It was called, let's go bounce a check because we had no fucking money. And I thought we were going to get chased down in the street and like arrest. So like your, your, your emotional attachment to money is so deep and it affects everything. That's right. So just you can get a hold of it as an adult woman and, and make it about, make it work for you. Yes. And you should deserve to. And you feel so smart. I feel really good about yourself. So that's awesome. Oh, you know, I want, can I just say one more thing? This is not, it's not a fucking array, but it's, it's almost just more of a, just something to put out there. Because there was a couple things on Twitter last week. And it was a couple things that were related to people talking to people who didn't like our podcast. And one of them was a really well written kind of analytical thread about what she thinks about what the podcast means. I'm reading this shit. No, it's just it came up. Okay. And the other one was somebody who was upset because they heard somebody on another podcast, not like your podcast. And actually adding the person and adding us and then being like, this broke my heart. And I think this, and I just want to say this. First of all, I know that both of those things came from love. And they were trying to like communicate like we care about you and whatever. But we don't, that's fine if people, we know that this podcast is not for everybody. And we're not interested in converting people who don't like us. We don't need to do that. And we, and we're fine with it. So we certainly don't want to hear about it when it's happening. But on, on top of that, you don't need to feel like you have to change that situation or convince anybody of anything. Like we have our little community and we were doing great and we're having a great time. The little community is that it's filled with people who like, like, where each other's allies in a thing that not everyone is into. And we don't need to convince people. Yeah. And they don't need to be. And it's why we like each other so much. Exactly. We're the ones who are into it. And it's it's like from the beginning when people would be like, oh, you have vocal fry or whatever. It's like, then don't fucking listen to the podcast. We don't give a shit. Like if you don't like it, if somebody doesn't like it, you don't have to convince them of anything. You can be like, okay, cool. The end. And also, I think the person who was adding the person who was on a podcast, I would like to say this. I don't know who the person was. I don't the podcast. But especially if it was a woman, pause on your need to correct or tell someone they can't say something. Because for me, all I've, when I started stand up, all I did was criticize people and say what I hated and say I didn't like something. That's your, that's, that person's right to do. Yeah. They get to have a critical thought. This is a very popular thing right now that, like, criticizing popular culture is what most folk podcasts are all about. If people want to do that and say, hey, I don't like this, they can. And I stand by that. And especially if it's a woman going, hey, I don't like this thing. Do not correct them. Do not tell them they don't get to say that. It's, it's just like, think of it in that way of like, all these things can exist simultaneously. People don't have to get along. This is not a theme wedding. It all does not have to go together. You can have all these different likes and things. And the end. The only person, the only person that we need to convince to like us is Paul Halls is Chrissy Teigen and Paul Halls and everyone else. Those are our top. But don't say that because people have already harassed Chrissy Teigen because she was like, I like true crime podcasts. What should I listen to? She asked for it. Okay. But I mean, we're not really launching that fucking because I watched that wave go where I was like, anytime that happens, I'm like, please end it as soon as possible. Yeah. What I want to say is we fucking love you guys. We love you guys. You guys fight our fights for us. And we appreciate that so much. I love when someone's me on Instagram. And I don't need to say anything because fucking ten rad marina is like, fuck you. And here's why. Yeah, well, I never worry about that shit because there's always somebody that comes in and is just usually in a really funny way. They're just like, yeah, whatever. Yeah. So what we're saying is we're so fucking lucky that we have this community and we don't need the fucking haters and the alien worry and the alien lizard robot people like we've got each other and that's a lot. Okay, we are back. Karen, do you have Nico case updates? I mean, I just have the updates that she had a memoir called the harder I fight the more I love you that came out in January of 2025. It actually reached number five on the New York Times nonfiction bestseller list. She's so smart and such a good writer and has had a pretty fascinating life like really cool September of 2025. She released her first studio album since Helen, the one I was recommending on that show and it's called neon gray midnight green and she produced it herself amazing. I have an update on the podcast I mentioned in 2020 Jen Hemphill merged her two podcasts and renamed her money matters as her deniro matters shifting toward a bilingual latina centered approach while keeping it open to all listeners. So that's super awesome. That's cool. The podcast celebrated its 10th anniversary in 2025 and reached 431 numbered episodes. Wow. Hey, we're same same. I know in addition to its shorter bonus installments. It's most recent episode currently listed on Hemphill's site was released in June of 2025. So go check out her deniro matters. Get as smart as you can about your deniro. Yeah, and then also I had mentioned you are a badass from Jensen, Sarah and she followed that with you are a badass at making money which I have in myself helps section of my book of your library. Exactly that came out in 2018 and then also Jensen, Sarah followed you are a badass at making money with you are a badass every day in 2018 and badass habits in 2020 all of which I own so those two women are just I think helping other women become badass and I love that. Yeah, great choices 2018 us yeah. So this episode was originally entitled aren't duct tape, but if we are naming it today we have so many wonderful choices, including footnoting the Greek fishermen. That's like that would be good. The one that jumped out and maybe laugh out loud is tanning my teeth. Every week while I like these old episodes I'm like oh yeah, there's good shit in here totally totally good shit like secret huge head when we're talking about how surprisingly large your head is. Right. Goat and a t-shirt. Come on. I mean, we've done it again. That's this week's episode of rewind. So thanks for listening. Let's go say goodbye in 2018. Thanks for listening, you guys are the best stay sexy and don't get murdered get away Elvis. Elvis, you want to cookie? Yeah, boy. There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself get worse with Kyle Peru is not one of those podcasts. So if you're interested in getting thinner going to therapy starting peptide setting boundaries taking supplements making your better getting closer than I would humbly recommend other podcasts. If you're interested in blackmail love bomb and cloning yourself are getting revenge, then we've got a little something something for a dastardly individual like you. Listen to get worse with Kyle Peru on the IHR Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the survivor files. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled and nearly silenced. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts you broke me you do not deserve happiness I'm Andrea Gunning on this season of betrayal Carl thought he was living a normal drama-free life until the messages started someone's not gonna make it out of this alive every piece of evidence pointed to the wrong guy he was not going to stop unless we stopped him listen to betrayal season six on the iHeart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts